Disarming Leviathan Podcast

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.

Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!

Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

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Pastor and author David Swanson joins us for a discussion about the ways that racism, tribalism, and nationalism are impacting the American Church, and how we can work to be peacemakers in the midst of division.

About David SwansonDavid is an author and the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church who lives with his family on the South Side of Chicago. He is the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices.

David’s first book, Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity was published with InterVarsity Press in 2020. His forthcoming book with IVP, Plundered: The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice, will be published in October, 2024.

David is a former Director of Church Planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is a graduate of Montreat College (BS, 1999), Wheaton College Graduate School (MA, 2003), and North Park Theological Seminary (MDiv, 2023). He keeps track of what he’s reading here and on most Tuesday mornings you’ll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds.

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.

Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!

Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Pastor Steve Bezner joins us to discuss how American culture has influenced the American Church's view of Jesus. We explore some of the distorted views of Jesus, including 'Christian Nationalist Jesus.' He also gives some coaching on how we can invite people back to a robust, biblical view of Jesus.

Preorder Steven’s book, Your Jesus is Too American today! About Steve Bezner

Steve Bezner (PhD, Baylor University) is senior pastor of Houston Northwest Church in Houston, Texas. He is a local leader and participant in Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, where he builds bridges with Muslims and Jews, and he serves on the board of the Houston Church Planting Network. He also trains church planters through Glocalnet, serves on the executive committee of Texas Baptists, and is an adjunct professor at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University. Bezner lives in Houston with his wife and two sons.

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.

Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!

Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

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Bible scholar Dr. Timothy Gombis joins Caleb for an exploration of the themes of power and government in the New Testament and how they can shape our understanding of American Christian Nationalism. Caleb shares a few pieces from his Christian Nationalist Bible collection.

About Timothy Gombis

Timothy G. Gombis (PhD, University of St. Andrews, Scotland) is professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, in Grand Rapids, MI. He is author of Paul: A Guide for the Perplexed (T&T Clark, 2010) and The Drama of the Ephesians: Participating in the Triumph of God (IVP Academic, 2010). He regularly writes about Christian identity, biblical studies, books, movies, music, sports, and culture on his blog, Faith Improvised ( https://timgombis.com).

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.

Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!

Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

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Dr. Dennis Edwards guides us in exploring how the New Testament can shape our understanding of and engagement in politics today.

More about Dr. Dennis EdwardsDennis Edwards is the Vice President for Church Relations and Dean of the Seminary and is the author of 1 Peter in the Story of God Bible Commentary series (Zondervan), What is the Bible and How Do We Understand It? (Herald Press), and Might from the Margins: The Gospel’s Power to Turn the Tables on Injustice (Herald Press). Dennis has been married to Susan Steele Edwards since 1982. They are the parents of four children, and grandparents of four.

You can find more on Dennis at https://www.revdrdre.com/

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode featuring Tim Alberta.

Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!

Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Hey friends,

I hope you’re having a great summer. I wanted to take a moment to share a quick update on both the Disarming Leviathan podcast and the broader ministry.

Podcast Update

First, the podcast. I’m pretty much doing this on my own — no production team, no fancy strategy. If we did have seasons, I think we’d be wrapping up either our second or third season right about now.

The way I’ve structured it is pretty simple: I reach out to people I respect — those I’ve learned from or hope to learn from — and record conversations with them. We’ve just wrapped up the most recent batch of those interviews. I have more great discussions lined up for later this summer and into the fall, and we’ll start rolling those out in the fall.

In the meantime, we’ll be reposting a few past episodes that still speak to our moment. If you’re newer to the podcast, these may be brand new to you — think of them like those reruns of old sitcoms that feel fresh if you missed them the first time around.

Ministry Update

Second, a quick update on the ministry itself. We recently released the Ministry Leader’s Companion Guide to Disarming Leviathan. It’s available on our website — disarmingleviathan.com. If you’re a pastor or ministry leader, I’d love for you to check it out. It’s designed to help you navigate conversations with people caught up in Christian Nationalism with wisdom, clarity, and love.

Book Update

Also worth celebrating: Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor just turned one! The response to the book has far exceeded my expectations. I’m so grateful for your support, for spreading the word, and for sharing how the book is helping you in your ministry and relationships.

If you’d like to help spread the word, reviews on Amazon or Goodreads really help others find the book. Sharing it on social media and tagging me or our Disarming Leviathan pages also helps.

Also, I’d really love to hear how the book has been meaningful to you or how you’ve put it into practice. You can share with me on social media or email me at [email protected].

Thanks for Your Support

Finally, if you haven’t already, subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform and leaving a rating or review helps more people find these conversations.

Thank you for your ongoing support — for listening, sharing, praying, and striving to love our Christian nationalist neighbors with the love of Christ. When I started this ministry, I honestly didn’t know what to expect. It’s been humbling and encouraging to see how God is using it.

I’m grateful for you and praying that as we continue this work together, God would bless and keep you in the months and years to come.

Jesus loves you so much!- Caleb E. Campbell

Political theorist Laurie Johnson joins Caleb Campbell to unpack the deeper forces driving America’s culture wars and ideological divisions. Drawing from her book The Gap in God's Country, Laurie shares her own political and spiritual journey—from Fox News conservative to a more reflective and empathetic posture—exploring how economic upheaval, social dislocation, and a loss of place have fostered political extremism and spiritual confusion. Together, they explore how modern life has misenchanted us, severed our communal ties, and made us vulnerable to ideological possession. Laurie offers wisdom on how we might engage angry or radicalized loved ones—not with facts alone, but through empathy, relationship, and a shared search for meaning in a fractured age.

Dr. Laurie M. Johnson is a political theorist, author, and public educator whose work explores the intersections of political identity, spirituality, and social dislocation in modern America. A professor of political science with a Ph.D. from Georgetown University, she has written extensively on extremism, ideology, and the psychological roots of political division, including in her books Ideological Possession and the Rise of the New Right and The Gap in God’s Country. Laurie is also a co-founder of the Morin Academy, inspired by the Catholic Worker movement, and hosts a YouTube channel on political philosophy. Her work invites readers and listeners to explore how economics, place, and identity formation shape our public lives—and how empathy and rootedness might offer a way forward.

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, death penalty scholar and former prosecutor Corinna Lain joins Caleb to discuss her groundbreaking book Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection. With a blend of research and personal reflection, Lain uncovers the history, flawed protocols, and moral implications of lethal injection as America’s primary method of execution. From the invention of the drug cocktail by an unqualified medical examiner, to botched executions carried out by untrained prison guards, to the reality that many on death row are not who they once were—Lain invites us to grapple with what the death penalty says about the state, about justice, and about us.

Corinna Lain is a law professor, former prosecutor, and one of the nation’s leading death penalty scholars. With nearly two decades of legal and academic expertise, her research has illuminated the systemic flaws and hidden mechanisms of capital punishment in the United States. Her latest book, Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection, draws on legal records, personal testimony, and theological reflection to expose how executions are carried out—and at what moral cost.

In this episode of the Disarming Leviathan podcast, Caleb Campbell talks with John Thielepape, a pastor and community leader from North Texas who now works with the Multifaith Neighbors Network and LocalNet. John shares how his team is helping churches and local institutions respond to political polarization, extremism, and social fragmentation. Drawing from his experience managing a community response project in Tarrant County, Texas, John explains how practical tools like the Peacemakers Toolkit and conversation action cards were developed to equip pastors and laypeople for everyday peacemaking. The conversation explores how belonging, trust, and listening can help provide “off-ramps” from radicalization and how discipleship rooted in the way of Jesus can reframe our engagement with those shaped by fear, division, or conspiracy thinking.

About John

John Thielepape (pronounced Tee-lee-pap) has served as the Director of Missions for the Parker Baptist Association since 2006, supporting Southern Baptist churches in Parker County, Texas—just west of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

Originally from Nashville, Tennessee, John now lives in Weatherford, Texas with his wife Charlotte, a retired public school educator. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in Organizational Management, a Master of Divinity, and a Doctor of Ministry focused on Faith Development Theory.

Find the Peacemakers toolkit at https://mfnn.org/resource/peacemakers-toolkit/

In a time when influence is currency and spiritual leaders are often shaped by worldly ambition, Kyle Strobel invites us to consider a different path: the cruciform way of the Lamb. Drawing from his book The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb and years of spiritual, theological reflection, Kyle explores how Christian leaders are tempted to use manipulative, domineering, and even demonic forms of power to achieve good ends—and why that inevitably corrodes the gospel.

About Kyle

Dr. Kyle Strobel is a spiritual theologian, writer, and speaker focused on the intersection of spiritual formation and Christian leadership. He serves as an associate professor of spiritual theology at Talbot School of Theology and is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb, a provocative exploration of power in the church. A scholar of Jonathan Edwards and co-host of several reflective podcasts, Kyle brings academic depth and pastoral sensitivity to questions of character, formation, and the dangers of worldly success in ministry.