Allen, Thom, and Patrick welcome addiction psychiatrist Carl Erik Fisher of Columbia University to discuss emotional sobriety. In the pursuit of “making sense of what happened to him” after his addiction hit a point of critical mass and he decided to seek help, Dr. Fisher wrote The Urge: Our History of Addiction and began regular episodes of the Flourishing After Addiction podcast to look for answers. How did we get here, how are we recovering, and how can we carry a message of education and hope?

Our relationship to community, to Self, and to our own self-esteem are dynamics which must evolve for us to find that “quiet place in bright sunshine” Bill mentions in his 1958 letter.

Learn more about Dr. Fisher on his website:

https://www.carlerikfisher.com

His podcast, Flourishing After Addiction:

https://pod.link/1581713114

Allen and Patrick will be in Dublin for the Recovery Reimagined conference next week, which can be attended virtually or in person:

https://friendlycircleberlin.org/recovery-reimagined-2025

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

When we try to wrestle security from life, we often get pinned. Joe Chisholm offers us this:

Dee Hock (1929-2022) wrote: 

“Life is not about control; it is not about getting; it is not about having or knowing. It is not even about being. Life is eternal, perpetual becoming, or it is nothing. Becoming is not a thing to be known, commanded, or controlled. It is a magnificent, mysterious odyssey to be experienced.”

Near the end of Twelve Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety, it captures the same becoming (the journey) vs. the outcome (controlling): 

"Emotional stability is achieved in our lives by becoming aware of our toxic beliefs and unenforceable rules, the ideas that make our emotional balance dependent on external conditions.... 

Once we become aware of these unenforceable rules, we must surrender them. We need to move toward an attitude of “I am okay even if this or that happens,” and away from the idea that “I am okay only if this happens or that happens.” This is emotional freedom. This freedom brings more stability to our canoe; we might even dance in it if we wish!"

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Patrick and Allen will be attending Friendly Circle Berlin's "Recovery Reimagined" event in Dublin, more info here: https://friendlycircleberlin.org/recovery-reimagined-2025

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Frequent collaborator and fellow recoverer Julia Heidmann stops by to talk about the role emotional sobriety has played in her relationships with others and herself.

From our friends in Canada:

“Inukshuk, pronounced (in-ook-shook), is a stone monument erected in the image of humans. One of its purposes was to serve as direction markers in the harsh and desolate Arctic. It was a tool of survival and a symbol of unselfish acts of the Inuit people.

The Inukshuk symbolizes co-operation, balance and unselfishness: the idea that teaching and group effect is greater than individual effort.

Each stone is a separate entity, yet each supports and is supported by the one above and the one below it. No one piece is any more or any less important than the other.

Its strength lies in its unity. Its significance comes from its meaning as a whole. The Inukshuk reminds us of our interdependent responsibilities to invest our efforts today, to direct a better way for all of us tomorrow.”

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Allen and Patrick will soon be visiting Dublin, for Friendly Circle Berlin's "Recovery Reimagined 2025", details below:

https://friendlycircleberlin.org/recovery-reimagined-2025 

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Allen, Thom, and Patrick discuss the overwhelm that often occurs as we return to health, and in so doing take on more challenges in our day to day lives. How do we maintain that sense of balance and proportion without steering into paralysis or unhealthy perfectionism?

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Roger Andes returns after a period of recovery to talk with Thom and Patrick about forming a new relationship with our life’s challenges, including awareness of our own mortality.

Roger holds B.A. and M.A. psychology degrees, and has worked as a personal growth consultant teaching transformative personal growth skills to individuals and groups for over 50 years. He helps his clients learn to let go of self-judgment and develop greater self-compassion and self-acceptance. He also specializes in teaching his clients how to be more aware of their emotions, the relationship between their emotions and their body, and to effectively express and manage their emotions.

He has been a certified teacher of body/emotion awareness work since 1975, and studied methods for building self-esteem and self-acceptance with psychotherapist and self-esteem theorist Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D. Roger has also worked closely with clinical psychologist Allen Berger, Ph.D. since 1985, and cofacilitates a training program in Gestalt Experiential Therapy with Dr. Berger. Roger has conducted personal growth workshops in the U.S., Canada, Europe, and Australia. 

To learn more about Roger and his work, he can be contacted by email at [email protected].

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Joe C. brings an existential framework to the discussion, which dredges up Patrick’s recent brushes with mortality and Allen’s titanic wrestling with the loss of his father at a young age.

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Acceptance of what is sets us on the road to change. While acceptance of powerlessness over alcohol, our dependencies, or lack of emotional sobriety can feel like a form of defeat, like the end of the story, experience tells us that it's only the beginning. 

Patrick, Allen and Thom speak to the acute resistance newcomers have towards the notion of powerlessness. What we're trying to do in early recovery is change the way we’re functioning from the bottom up - no easy task!

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop truly puts our ability to regulate to the test, as it reminds us how little we control, and how much of our strength derives from our environments rather than ourselves. The goal of emotional sobriety is to invert that paradigm.

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

In filing our claims with reality’s “complaint department,” we discover new ways of getting in touch with our disturbances, big and small, in order to free ourselves from unhealthy dependencies. We read some Eckhart Tolle and make fun of DOGE.

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.

Joe C. and the crew discuss their emerging conception of living responsibly with emotional sobriety. Ultimately, this depends greatly on our connection with others and our willingness to live authentically.

Upcoming events with Allen Berger: https://abphd.com/events/

Learn more about Joe C., Secular AA and Rebellion Dogs here: https://rebelliondogspublishing.com/

Join an ongoing Zoom meeting wherein participants read Bill Schaberg’s 30 Things: Practical Advice for Living Well chapter-by-chapter here:

11.00am East Coast / 4.00pm U.K.

ID: 875 319 1947

Password: 2GROWIN

Follow us on social media.

Podcast Twitter: @EmSobrietyPod

Instagram: thomrutledge2

Joe C. Twitter: @Rebellion_Dogs

Friendly Circle Berlin Workshop Group meets every Monday @ 7:30pm (Berlin), 6:30pm (Ireland & UK), 1:30pm EST, 10:30am PST

Zoom Link:  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/5505019905

Allen’s book, 12 Essential Insights for Emotional Sobriety: https://www.amazon.com/12-Essential-Insights-Emotional-Sobriety/dp/1955415129/

Join Allen & Thom at our Thursday night, 7pm PST Zoom meeting on Emotional Sobriety and the Steps (login information below):

https://zoom.us/j/330149513

Password: 375986

For our ongoing workshop video series on Emotional Sobriety and the 12 Steps, visit our YouTube channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEM2-kqLkfp3I4c0jy-X-g

Also, please join our “Emotional Sobriety and Recovery” FB Group at the following link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/120450976662519

We’d love to stay in touch in between meetings.

We appreciate feedback! Contact Patrick, our producer, at [email protected] for any questions or comments.