Grief Out Loud

When John's father died of suicide in 2021 it came as a complete shock. John couldn't square the dad he knew as cool and levelheaded with the reality that he took his life. He tried to figure it out - what was going on for his dad that led him to this? Over time, John began to better understand some of the factors that contributed to his dad's death. Throughout it all, he turned to his family, friends, and himself for support in navigating this new world without his dad.

This series is a part of an ongoing collaboration between Dougy Center and the New York Life Foundation. We are deeply grateful for New York Life Foundation's tireless support and advocacy on behalf of children and teens who are grieving.

Download a copy of the New York Life Foundation's newest resource for teens who are grieving - Lost in the Middle.

If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please reach out. You can call the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988 or text HELLO to 741741.

Sonja was 15 when we recorded in the summer of 2023, but was just 10 when her father, Matt, died in September 2018 from injuries due to a car accident. Sonja, her mom, and two younger siblings lived in NYC at the time of his death. They eventually moved across the country to Portland, Oregon where they attended peer grief support groups at Dougy Center. Sonja shares what she remembers about hearing that her dad was in an accident, how their community showed up while he was in the hospital, and how they kept showing up after he died. We also talk about her dad and what it's like to be the oldest sibling who had the most time and memories with him.

This series is a part of an ongoing collaboration between Dougy Center and the New York Life Foundation. We are deeply grateful for New York Life Foundation's tireless support and advocacy on behalf of children and teens who are grieving.

Download a copy of the New York Life Foundation's newest resource for teens who are grieving - Lost in the Middle.

Alexandra Wyman and her husband Shawn had a bit of a whirlwind life. They got married in 2018, had their son in 2019, and then in 2020 Shawn died of suicide. His death created a different type of whirlwind. The kind where Alexandra had to rebuild her life as a solo parent dealing with the intense swirl of guilt, sadness, anger, and confusion. As the shock wore off, Alexandra started to write down what she was going through and learning along the way. This led to her new book, The Suicide Club - What To Do When Someone You Love Chooses Death, and her podcast, The Widow's Club.

We discuss:

• Who Alexandra is in addition to her grief
• How Shawn lived as a husband and father
• The day Alexandra got the news of his death
• The early days of grief
• The importance of daily rituals and routines
• Working on the intense guilt and self-doubt she felt in grief
• Figuring out how to set boundaries
• Having her marriage be under the microscope
• Learning to be a solo parent
• How she talks to her son about Shawn's death
• Finding the support of other widows who are grieving a death by suicide
• Grief tantrums - as an adult

Alexandra's website - Forward to Joy

If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out for support. You can call the National LifeLine at 988 or text HELLO to 741741.

This was supposed to be an episode about going back to work with grief, but it's not. Emily did have to navigate going back to work after her partner Chantel was killed in a hit and run, but this conversation ended up being about love. And loss. And the magical powers of caring for a dog named Indie. It's also about bringing the love you had with a partner who died into a new relationship and what it's like to grow that love with someone else.

We discuss

• How Emily and Chantel fell in love

• What she remembers about the night Chantel died

• The isolation and loneliness of the Covid shutdown so early in her grief

• How guilt shows up

• Grieving a partner when you're so young and not married – and other people's opinions about it all

• Navigating the logistics after a death

• How being concerned about negative reactions from others hindered Emily's ability to talk openly about her relationship with Chantel – and how she would do things differently now

• The wonders of therapy
• How Emily deals with the fear of someone else dying

Katie Cosgrove experienced the death of someone close to her every year between the ages of 15 and 21. The first was her father, who died of brain encephalitis. For the next five years, Katie did what so many teens do - she didn't talk about her grief. Until she did. Now, she's the founder of Grief is Good and the author of new children's book, "I'll see you in your dreams tonight," which invites children (and adults too) to find ways to make new memories with their person who died.

We discuss:

1. What Katie needed when her dad died and how that changed over time

1. Why she stopped talking about her dad and how she learned to start again

1. The nonverbal ways she started to engage with grief

1. How her dad's death shaped who she is

1. Living a death-centered life

2. How she continues to make new memories with her dad

3. What it will mean to make a hole in one on the golf course someday

"How do I help someone who is grieving?" This is the perennial question when it comes to showing up for people we care about after someone dies. Zack Wheat, a Board Certified Chaplain, knows more than most about what people who are grieving need - and don't need. Professionally, Zack knows about this from his work as a hospital chaplain for an inpatient palliative care team. He also knows about it from his time volunteering as a facilitator in peer grief support groups at Dougy Center. But, long before he was a hospital chaplain or a grief group facilitator, Zack learned about how to be there for others when he was 21 and his friend Leanna died in a car accident.

In this episode we talk about:

• What it was like for Zack to speak at his friend's funeral

• His draw to working as a chaplain

• The difference between hospital and hospice chaplaincy

• How the pandemic impacted Zack and his hospital colleagues

• What people who are grieving need – and don't need

• How to be human with other humans who are grieving

• What keeps people from showing up for others

• The value of acknowledgment, empathy, and presence

• What Zack's learned as a facilitator in a peer grief support group

Lionel Irving is the founder of Love is Stronger, an organization in Portland, OR dedicated to supporting gang-impacted families and communities in building healing, accountability, and safety. While Lionel and Love is Stronger focus on interrupting gun violence, this work is also rooted in grief. Lionel's uncle was shot and killed by the police in 1975. His cousin Donald was killed in 1999 by a rival gang. His mother died of a sudden illness when Lionel was 20. In the last two years, he went to over 40 funerals, many of those for young people killed by gun violence.

We talk about:

• Lionel's early experiences with grief and gun violence
• How he lost his moral compass when his mother died
• His work as a tribute to how his mother saw him
• The role unprocessed grief played in his life, including killing another teen
• How being in prison and learning about trauma changed his life
• Learning there's no quick fix for grief
• What is unique about grieving a gun violence death
• The origin story of Love is Stronger
• Lionel's vision for interrupting cycles of gun violence
• What the community can do to help
• What helps him tend his own grief

More information about Lionel & Love is Stronger.

What does it mean to be a cultural kinkeeper and how does that idea relate to grief? These are two of the questions we explore with Anika Chabra, co-founder of Root & Seed, a platform meant to inspire people to collect and document family stories, recipes, and traditions. When Anika's mom died suddenly in 2019, she realized just how much she didn't know, not just about her mom, but also about their family history and cultural traditions. Root & Seed is Anika's offering to help others have meaningful conversations with their family members in the hopes of recording those important stories and legacies.

We discuss:

• The ways Anika's mother mothered her
• How Anika went searching for stories about her mother after her death
• What else Anika lost when her mother died
• The origin of Root & Seed and the digital and physical tools they provide to help people document their family stories and traditions
• What she most wishes she could tell her mom now

As more opportunities for non-traditional grief support arise, it's no surprise that many of them are happening in historically marginalized communities who have not felt relevantly supported in those settings. The Grief Garden, co-created by Julia Mallory, a multidisiciplinary artist, and Tiana Zabala, the garden manager at Goggleworks Center for the Arts is the perfect example of this type of offering. The Grief Garden was designed to bring people together, in relationship with the outdoors, where they could engage with rest, movement, medicine making, and sound.

Julia Mallory is a storyteller, writer, and artist who after the death of her eldest son Julian in 2017 also became a community grief worker. Through her words, images, and offerings, Julia invites others to acknowledge and express their own grief.

Tiana Zabala is passionate about growing food, medicine, and building community. In her role as garden manager at GoggleWorks she focuses on urban farming and developing opportunities for collective healing.

We discuss:

• What Julia & Tiana learned about grief from their families
• The lack of opportunity to gather and honor collective grief, especially in the Black community
• How grief gets pathologized in a grief avoidant society
• The origin of the Grief Garden event
• Why embodied practices like movement, song, and art are important in grief
• How Julia makes engaging with grief more accessible through her lived experience
• Farming as a metaphor for grief and the cycle of life
• Julia & Tiana's plans for future creative grief expression events

Grief Out Loud Episode 178: Survivor's Guilt - Julia Mallory

Pierce Freelon is a GRAMMY® nominated musician, author, and educator. He is also a son, a father, a husband, and an astute observer of life and grief and everything in between. Pierce was a caregiver for his father, Phil Freelon, a renowed architect who died of ALS. He's also the author of the new children's book, Daddy and Me: Side by Side, a beautiful rendering of the times Pierce and his father spent in nature, and how Pierce is doing the same with his own son. A few hours before our interview, Pierce got word that a beloved professor from his time in graduate school, Dr. Micere Githae Mugo, had just died. In connection to both of these influential people, Pierce shares his unique and nuanced perspective on grief, legacy, and the power of artistry.

We talk about:

• How Pierce thinks about death and grief and ongoing connection
• The role gratitude plays in grief
• How new grief feels familiar, because love feels familiar
• The legacy of values, worldview, and artistry Pierce inherited from his dad, Phil, and his professor, Dr. Mugo
• The cultural traditions Pierce turns to in grief
• Caregiving for his father during his illness and end-of-life
• The autobiographical elements of Pierce's new children's book, Daddy And Me: Side by Side.

Listen to our episode with Pierce's mother, Nneena Freelon, Ep. 202 Grief Wanted My Attention.