IndoctriNation

Alexandra Stein, Ph.D. is a writer and educator specializing in the social psychology of ideological extremism and other dangerous social relationships. She is currently an Honorary Research Fellow at the University of Sussex. Dr. Stein offers programs and materials to help people understand how to identify and protect themselves and others from recruitment into cultic or extremist groups. She also studies and teaches about positive social relationships: "small d" democracy, inclusivity, and healthy social and personal networks that can oppose these dangerous relationships.

In this information-dense conversation, Alexandra discusses her experiences as a former member of a supposedly left-wing political cult explaining how her confusion after leaving became the catalyst for her groundbreaking research into cultic dynamics. Dr. stein cites the work of Robert Jay Lifton and Janja Lalich as instrumental to her initial understanding of how she ended up under the control of an authoritarian and violent cult leader.

Before You Go: Rachel offers her insights on how being involved with high-control groups or relationships can greatly impact someone's attachment style and negatively affect their ability to have healthy relationships.

You can find more about Dr. Stein's work at: https://www.alexandrastein.com/

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

www.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

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Pamela Jackson is a licensed clinical social worker, LCSW, and creative nonfiction writer. She specializes in therapy for adult women who have estranged or difficult relationships with their mothers. After leaving the ICOC cult, Pamela attempted to repair her relationship with her

mother, one of the main reasons she was vulnerable to the love bombing and manipulation of ICOC. The mother-daughter conversations ultimately failed but also became the inspiration to her private practice, supporting women to re-parent themselves. Pamela has just completed her first memoir about the journey of mothering while unmothered, some of her client’s stories, and how leaving the cult eventually led her to find a Mother within. Pamela earned a Bachelor's from The New School, a Masters's degree in Fine Arts from Sarah Lawrence College, and a Masters’s degree in Social Work from Silberman School of Social Work at Hunter College. She is a co-parent to her bold, joyful daughter.

In this intimate conversation, Pamela opens up about her time as a follower of the ICOC and how it relates to her complex relationship with her mother. Pamela goes on to explain how she navigated her mothers' narcissistic tendencies and found identity as an artist despite the complicated entanglements that shaped her upbringing.

Before You Go: Rachel explains how the appeal of a structured life can keep followers trapped in high-control groups, but also prime them for abusive relationships.

Find more about Pamela and her work here:

https://www.allomothering.org

Follow Pamela on Social Media:

Instagram: pamela.s.jackson

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pamelasjackson

Medium: https://medium.com/@pamelasjackson

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

www.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our exclusive Patreon bonus episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a supporter at:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Returning guest, Marissa Hackett was born in 1979 in Los Angeles, California. At the time of her birth, her parents were involved with a group called the Foundation of Human Understanding, a right-wing cult led by Roy Masters. When Marissa was 11 years old, she moved with her family to Southern Oregon, where Roy moved the headquarters of the group and opened the only school Marissa attended in her childhood, Brighton Academy. As a black family, this experience created unique challenges for Marissa as she navigated life.

Today, Marissa lives in Seattle and identifies as a fierce progressive. She's a proud auntie, sister, daughter, niece, godmother, and friend. She shares a life with her partner and husband, Aaron. Marissa absolutely loves music and being in nature. She currently resides in Seattle, Washington where she is a grad student in Couples and Family Therapy at Antioch University.

In this follow-up conversation, Marissa provides updates on her familial relationships and healing journey since sharing her story for the first time. She offers insights on how she's been able to successfully reconcile a relationship with her father while maintaining her perspective on the damaging experiences she suffered as a child.

Find Marissa's blog on Substack here:

marissahackett.substack.com/

Thanks to all of our Patreon supporters for making this episode possible!

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Dr. Laura Anderson is a therapist, trauma resolution, and recovery coach, writer, educator, and creator who specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence, and religious trauma. She holds a Master’s degree in Marriage and Family Therapy and a Ph.D. in Mind-Body Medicine with her research focusing on the experience of living in a healing body after sexual trauma. Laura has a small private practice in Nashville, TN, and is the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching company where she and the other practitioners work with clients who have experienced high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma. In 2019, Laura co-founded the Religious Trauma Institute with the goal of providing trauma-informed resources, consultation, and training to clinicians and other helping professionals who work with religious trauma survivors. Laura’s first book, “When Religion Hurts: Reclaiming Your Life After Religious Trauma”, is being released by Brazos Press in Fall 2023. She lives with her dog, Phoebe, in Middle Tennessee.

In this highly informative and revealing conversation. Dr. Anderson shares with Rachel her personal experience and professional insights from the specialized work she does with survivors of religious trauma. The two colleagues discuss the most effective modalities for religious trauma recovery and outline some important nuances that often get overlooked on the path to healing.

Before you go: Rachel offers some common traits to look out for in high-control religious groups to assess whether or not the leader's intentions are healthy.

You can find more about Dr. Andreson and her work at:

https://drlauraeanderson.com/

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

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Kayla is a YouTube creator and launched her channel Keya's World back in 2021 to discuss toxic positivity, hustle culture, self-help, spirituality, scams, and everything in between. Kayla started her career in the broadcast & digital journalism industry and still uses her research and storytelling skills while creating her content. Kayla is a former personal development fan who thought the industry was the key to finding success in her life. However, Kayla experienced firsthand how the self-help and wellness industry can be full of manipulation, clever marketing, and red flags. Now she is on a mission to help expose some of the tactics that can lead well-meaning "seekers" astray.

Kayla opens up to Rachel about her experience in the personal development and wellness community, explaining how her involvement with alternative forms of counseling led her to uncover a world fraught with deception and fraud. She explains how her own bad experience became the catalyst for the important and often hilarious work she does now, combining her skills in journalism and media production with her knowledge of the inner workings of this problematic industry.

Before You Go: Rachel shares from her own perspective as an LMFT, how both the unregulated as well as regulated counseling industries don't always provide the consumer protection they should and how to be aware of red flags when seeking help.

Make sure to subscribe to Kayla's wonderful YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/keyasworld

Follow Kayla on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keyasworldyt/?hl=en

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our exclusive Patreon bonus episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a supporter at:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Returning guest Christa Lester‐Pitsch is a survivor of an offshoot of the infamous cult known as The Way. She was born into and escaped the high‐control religious group, River Road Fellowship at the age of 23. Christa’s main goal in sharing her story is to help people who might find themselves in similar situations as the one she was in. She runs an Instagram page called The Survivor Experience with the hope that others going through similar situations of escaping control and abuse can know that they are not alone. Despite this experience being a big part of her past, and despite her desire to share it, Christa believes that it is one of the less interesting things about her today, Christa is an artist, a musician, and a mom to a spunky little boy. She resides in Bellingham, Washington with her husband Lucas, her son Mason, and their miniature labradoodle, Shiloh.

In this follow-up conversation with Rachel, Christa continues her story of survival, explaining the details of her exit from River Road Fellowship and highlighting the difficult experiences of leaving behind all that she has ever known in pursuit of freedom from the all-encompassing control she lived under for her entire life.

Thanks to all of our Patreon supporters for making this episode possible!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

CONTENT WARNING: Child Sexual Abuse

Christa Lester‐Pitsch is a survivor of an offshoot of the infamous cult known as The Way. She was born into and escaped the high‐control religious group, River Road Fellowship at the age of 23. Christa’s main goal in sharing her story is to help people who might find themselves in similar situations as the one she was in. She runs an Instagram page called The Survivor Experience with the hope that others going through similar situations of escaping control and abuse can know that they are not alone. Despite this experience being a big part of her past, and despite her desire to share it, Christa believes that it is one of the less interesting things about her today, Christa is an artist, a musician, and a mom to a spunky little boy. She resides in Bellingham, Washington with her husband Lucas, her son Mason, and their miniature labradoodle, Shiloh.

Christa shares with Rachel the intimate emotional details of her life growing up under the authoritarian control of River Road Fellowship, where she struggled to find the autonomy and freedom other kids often take for granted. She explains her thought process as she began to plan her eventual escape and the complications that arose with her familial relationships in the process of gaining her independence as a young woman.

Before You Go: Rachel reflects on the desperate measures members of high-control groups have to take in order to simply survive and maintain their rights and autonomy in the face of oppressive control.

Follow Christa on IG: @thesurvivorexperience

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Zachary Heinzerling is an Academy Award-nominated and Emmy Award-winning director based in New York City. His latest docu-series entitled “Stolen Youth: Inside the Cult of Sarah Lawrence" about Larry Ray and his victims, premiered February 9th, 2023 on Hulu. The New York Times praised it as “a true-crime-coup,” The New Yorker called it "a remarkable work, advancing the prestige true-crime genre’s slow but steady reorientation toward centering victims"

In this fascinating look behind the scenes of Heinzerling's critically acclaimed series on the cult of Larry Ray, Zach emphasizes the important insights he learned from Rachel in the conversations he had with her throughout the filmmaking process. Together they discuss the ethics of documenting survivor stories and the importance of creating not only an accurate depiction of the tragic events but an honest narrative that teaches the audience about the red flags that we're missed and why they were so hard to recognize.

Before You Go: Rachel offers her insights on the sensitive nature of interviewing survivors of cultic abuse or coercive control in media or counseling and offers advice on how to tell survivor-led stories ethically and with conscious intentionality.

Follow Zach on IG and Twitter: @haryheinz

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our exclusive Patreon bonus episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a supporter at:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

In this very special bonus episode exclusively for our Patreon supporters, Rachel reflects on the recent 30th anniversary of the horrific massacre on April 19th, of the infamous compound belonging to the religious cult known as the Branch Davidians, Rachel shares her unique insights on what so often goes wrong in police raids and how the horrible outcomes in Waco can potentially be avoided.

She offers insights from her own personal experiences working with survivors of government raids on isolated religious communes such as the raid of Warren Jeffs FLDS compound and the tragic Waco siege on the compound of David Koresh, where she worked alongside social workers offering support to survivors and family members.

Listen to Rachel's interview on KLRD's Texas Wants To Know program on the Waco Siege here:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-happened-30-years-ago-in-waco/id1633332210?i=1000609617938

Thanks to our Patreon supporters for making this episode possible!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Brian Rush McDonald grew up in southern Alabama in the early 1970s, where he eventually gave up his dream of working as a professional musician to become what at the time was called a "Jesus freak". During his high school years, however, he unwittingly found himself involved in fundamentalist Christianity. Though he was troubled by his faith's teaching that the lost were damned to hell, he attended Bob Jones University where he was engulfed in the harsh doctrine and rigid views of fundamentalism. He was then ordained and began a life in the ministry, eventually having three children with his high school sweetheart. He went with his family to Taiwan where they were missionaries for seven years, immersing themselves in the culture and learning the Mandarin Language. But he continued to struggle with his faith's teachings, especially the fate of non-believers. When he returned to the U.S. he was a pastor for many years, all the while quietly wrestling with the harsh dogma of his chosen religion. He pursued graduate studies at The College of William & Mary, eventually earning a Ph.D. and gaining a deeper understanding of human development, particularly with regard to religious belief.

Finally, after 30 years of preaching, McDonald walked away from the pulpit to pursue a different path. His recent book, The Long Surrender is a riveting memoir about losing religion to find freedom. Dr. McDonald has taught at Johns Hopkins University and George Mason University as an adjunct professor of counseling and is now a psychotherapist in private practice in Alexandria, Virginia where he resides with his wife Kathy and plays trombone in several local bands,

Brian shares with Rachel insights he gained throughout his years as a devoted, but questioning Christian fundamentalist in the Southern Baptist church. He explains the uncomfortable feelings that he held throughout his time as both a minister and evangelist as he grappled with the hypocrisy of the racism and homophobia he encountered in the church culture and theology. Together Rachel and Brian unpack the similar callings of pastoral care and therapeutic counseling helping professionals share.

Before You Go: Rachel addresses the problematic nature of religious evangelizing, sharing her own personal experiences as an example of the often arrogant and presumptuous acts of those attempting to convert people.

All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here:

rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html

To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit:

www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

www.paypal.me/indoctrination

Connect with us on Social Media:

Twitter:

twitter.com/_indoctrination

Facebook:

www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast

Tik Tok:

www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast

Instagram:

www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/

YouTube:

www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft

You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands