Pushing The Limits

In this episode Run Coaches Lisa Tamati and Neil Wagstaff look at the structure of a good run training system.

The many elements of a holistic program - run sessions, skills and drills, mobility and flexibility work, strength work, sleep and recovery, nutrition and supplementation and mindset.

They look at the benefits of video analysis and when to build in technique and drill work and when and how to build in strength training that is specific to running.

How mobilty work plays a part and the role of your hormones and rest and recovery and much more.

We would like to thank our sponsors

Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff

If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners. All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more. www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati

You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com

We are also holding another live event on the 31st of August- 1st of September in Havelock North, New Zealand - Its a weekend running seminar

Join us for a weekend of fun, inspiration and education around everything Running

Do you want to run with less pain and injuries, avoid burnout and over training? Do you want to have a better running technique? Want to improve your times? Want to learn how to maximise your training time and train efficiently while getting optimal results?

If you answered yes to any of these questions then this weekend is for you! Suitable for absolute beginners just starting out on their journey through to elite ultramarathon runners looking to improve their 100 mile times.

So come and meet some great like minded people and hang out with the Running Hot Coaching team and completely change the trajectory of your running career.

What's included Saturday 31st of August (9am-4pm + Dinner)

Run video analysis and review

Drills and skills for runners

Core and strength training for runners

Flexibility and mobility for runners

Nutrition for runners

Mindset training

Dinner and tales from the trails with Lisa Tamati and Neil Wagstaff (Meal and entertainment included in the package price, drinks extra)

Sunday 1st of September (9am-12:30pm)

Putting it all together into a programme that works for you

2 hours walk/hike/run on Te Mata Peak (suitable for all abilities)

Find out more and register here: https://training.runninghotcoaching.com/how-to-revolutionise-your-running-training?fbclid=IwAR2bFPz6A26CMbzrMhqRyIcdCs9Sgb25mnYv3jTbneouxyyWtzqIx9ZZrKI

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

If you want to work towards success, you need to start living a life that's indistractable.

We know we need to be focused. Yet, how many times a day do you get distracted from doing your most important work? It's easy to get sucked into hours of scrolling through social media or mindlessly skipping channels. These external triggers often take the blame when we get distracted. However, did you know that a more dangerous form of distraction is one where we think we're being productive? The secret is that the opposite of distraction isn't focus: it's traction.

Behavioural designer Nir Eyal joins us to talk about how to form good habits and break bad ones. He discusses the four steps to becoming indistractable and staying on top of your goals. We also learn how to change our mindsets around self-limiting beliefs and pessimistic thoughts. Finally, Nir shares his expertise in creating effective habit-forming products and building an engaged community.

You have the power to become indistractable. Tune in if you want to know about how to create a distraction-free life!

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Discover the four steps you need to take to become indistractable.
2. Understand the true meaning of distractions and why we need to let go of limiting beliefs.
3. Learn how to make habit-forming products and services along with a strong community engagement.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.
• A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!
• Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes with Dr Elena Seranova:
• • #183: Sirtuin and NAD Supplements for Longevity
  • #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity
• Connect with Nir: Website I Twitter I LinkedIn
• Books by Nir:
• • Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products
  • Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life
• Steven Kotler and The Flow Collective
• Mindset by Carol Dweck
• Factfulness by Hans Rosling
• Peter Diamandis and his books

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

Customised Online Coaching for Runners

CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer Without Burnout & Injuries

Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles?

Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler?

​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Despite their words, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements

NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor

Feel Healthier and Younger*

Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.

What is NMN?

NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life.

Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.

Support Your Healthy Ageing

We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today.

Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all

• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules
• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules

Quality You Can Trust — NMN

Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility

Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined

• Cellular Health
• Energy & Focus
• Bone Density
• Skin Elasticity
• DNA Repair
• Cardiovascular Health
• Brain Health
• Metabolic Health

My 'Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

Episode Highlights [04:57] Nir's Background

• As a behavioural designer, Nir helps companies build products and services that encourage individuals to develop healthy habits.
• The same strategy and technology addictive platforms like Facebook use can help people form good habits.
• Nir has written Hooked to help people build good habits. Meanwhile, Indistractable teaches people how to break bad habits.
• People often know what to do to create a better life but don't take action. As such, Nir believes that learning to be indistractable is the skill of the century.

[06:25] On Indistractable: Understanding Distractions

• The opposite of distraction isn't focus; it's traction.
• Traction is any action that will bring you closer to your goals and values.
• Therefore, distraction is any action that will pull you away from your goals and values.
• The most dangerous form of distraction is the one where we think we're being productive.
• We often prioritise the urgent and easy work over the hard and important ones.

[10:40] Social Media and Addiction

• There's a widespread belief that social media will make you addicted. But in reality, this is learned helplessness.
• When people believe that they're addicted, they often don't do anything about it.
• There's nothing wrong with social media. The problem is how we use it.
• We are not powerless against technology.

[13:22] How to Gain Back Control

• People don't accomplish a goal because they quit early and don't feel like doing the work.
• We often blame our distractions on external forces. However, around 90% of these are due to internal triggers.
• Internal triggers are uncomfortable emotions that we want to escape. We do this by distracting ourselves.
• In reality, time management is about pain management.

[17:43] Letting Go of Limiting Beliefs

• Nir warns against anchoring our autonomy on neurotransmitters. When we believe we have a specific nature, we limit our agency.
• Before labelling yourself a certain way, do the work.
• People find success when they act before they make excuses.
• Believing in ego depletion is also harmful. Find out why in the full episode!

[24:49] The Indistractable Model: Steps One and Two

• The first strategy to becoming indistractable is mastering your internal triggers through visualisation.
• Don't envision the outcome. Doing so can be harmful because it makes you feel like you've already done the work.
• Visualise what you'll do when you're tempted to go off track.
• The second step is to make time for traction. You can't call something a distraction unless you know what you're distracted from.
• Having a to-do list can be harmful; plan daily schedules instead.

[27:44] The Indistractable Model: Steps Three and Four

• The third step is to decrease external triggers.
• Finally, prevent distractions with pacts or pre-commitments.

[30:40] What You Should Measure

• We have a lot of self-limiting beliefs. You need to distinguish whether these are things you cannot do or just ones you don't want to do.
• When doing something, the consistency of your actions contributes more to your success than the intensity.
• Understand that accomplishing your goals takes time.
• Instead of looking at your output, learn to measure your progress through your inputs, such as time and effort.

[37:57] Be Willing to Put in the Hard Work

• There's no magic pill for our problems and goals. Everything takes time and work.
• Keep showing up and doing the hard work.
• We now have access to so much information; you just need to get out there and learn.
• Remember that if you're looking for distraction, it will come.

[41:58] Adapting to Changes Around Us

• All new things have consequences. The good thing is, we humans are highly adaptable.
• In the same vein, you have the power to adapt and control how you consume 'addictive' social media. Not the other way around.
• Nir believes that the world is getting better. However, good news does not get much media coverage.
• Try to be more optimistic. Only then can you seek solutions to problems and not resign yourself to the situation.
• You don't need to worry about everyone's problems. Your human capital is best directed toward issues where you can make the easiest and most significant impact.

[50:48] How to Make Habit-Forming Products

• Use habit-forming products frequently and soon. It should be something that you use within a week or less.
• First, tap into internal triggers and specify which uncomfortable emotion your product wants to solve.
• Second, reduce friction. Make your product as easy as possible to use.
• Third, create variable rewards. Uncertainty is what excites people and gets them hooked.
• Finally, it helps to make people invest in the experience. Listen to the full episode to dive deeper into making habit-forming products!

[55:19] The 3 C's of Engagement

• Fostering engagement can be done through content, community, and conversation.
• Curate content that will give value to others.
• Empower people to help one another so you can create a strong-knit community.
• Lastly, have conversations with people to share knowledge and wisdom.

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

'The opposite of distraction is not focus. If you look at the origin of the word, the opposite of distraction is traction. You'll notice that both traction and distraction end in the same six letters, a-c-t-i-o-n.'

'Traction, by definition, is any action that pulls you towards what you said you were going to do. Things that you do with intent. Things that move you closer to your values and help you become the kind of person you want to become.'

'We have this model in our heads: traction, distraction, internal, external, right? Now we know that the four big parts of the Indistractable model. So now, we work our way around these four steps like the points on a compass.'

'One of my life mantras is: "Consistency over intensity". I think that's how we change.'

'We want that instant relief. We want that instant solution. Look, the things that are worth having in life, they take time.'

'What's going to lead us out of our problems is not running away from these problems, not throwing up our hands and giving up. But rather, engaging with these problems, right?'

'[Habit-forming products] appreciate in value, meaning they get better and better the more we interact with them because of what I call stored value.'

About Nir

Nir Eyal writes, consults, and teaches about the intersection of psychology, technology, and business. He helps companies create behaviours that benefit the users and educates people on building healthful habits in their lives.

Nir previously taught as a Lecturer in Marketing at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and the Hasso Plattner Institute of Design. He is the bestselling author of Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. He also shares his insights with his newsletter at Nir and Far and has written for Psychology Today, The Atlantic, TechCrunch, and the Harvard Business Review.

Nir is also an active investor in habit-forming technologies, such as Eventbrite, Kahoot!, and Anchor.fm.

Interested in learning more about Nir's work? You check out his website. You can also reach him on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so that they can learn what it takes to form good habits and become indistractable.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

As the saying goes, trust your gut — and this isn't only figuratively. One of the most overlooked aspects of health is our digestive system. We tend to ignore and underestimate the symptoms we experience around our gut. But with its link to our brains, our guts play a much more significant role in our overall health. The simple act of eating healthy foods can completely turn your life around.

Kirsty Wirth joins us in this episode to share how reexamining gut health impacted her and her son's life. She talks about the road to recovery, specifically her family undergoing fecal microbial transplant (FMT). Kirsty highlights the importance of in-depth gut health testing, cutting out junk foods, and consuming healthy foods. She further discusses the two types of fermented food and how we can incorporate it into our diet.

If you're having trouble with your digestive system and want to know which healthy foods to choose, this episode is for you.

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn how an undiagnosed gut issue can lead to an autism spectrum misdiagnosis.
2. Discover the importance of eating healthy foods when looking after your microbiome.
3. Find out the two types of fermented food and their effects on the body.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.
• A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!
• Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:
• • #170: The Search for the Perfect Protein and Why So Many of Us Are Deficient with Dr David Minkoff
  • #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova
  • #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova
• Connect with Kirsty: Instagram I Facebook I Email
• Kultured Wellness
• Get your Kultured Wellness starter culture here!
• Join a Kultured Wellness Programme today!
• Kulturing Kuriosity podcast
• Lifespan: Why We Age – and Why We Don't Have To by Dr David Sinclair

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

Customised Online Coaching for Runners

CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer Without Burnout & Injuries

Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles?

Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler?

​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements

NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor

Feel Healthier and Younger*

Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.

What is NMN?

NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life.

Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.

Support Your Healthy Ageing

We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today.

Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all

• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules
• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules

Quality You Can Trust — NMN

Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility

Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined

• Cellular Health
• Energy & Focus
• Bone Density
• Skin Elasticity
• DNA Repair
• Cardiovascular Health
• Brain Health
• Metabolic Health

My 'Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

Episode Highlights [04:55] The Story Behind Kultured Wellness

• Kirsty started Kultured Wellness because of her personal experience and what her son went through.
• She started having tummy upsets from age two onwards. She would constantly swing between constipation and diarrhea.
• Acquiring viral encephalitis at age 13 and being hospitalised for a week was a landmark time in Kirsty's life. Gut problems became a constant issue from then on.
• Her husband, who is a nurse, told her constant diarrhea is not normal. So, she dabbled with various diets but didn't stick with them.
• It's not until they found out about her son's conditions that Kirsty took concrete action.

[09:55] Kirsty's Son's Autism Spectrum Diagnosis

• At 13 months, Noah suffered from infections and tummy troubles. Fortunately, his recovery progressed well.
• But at 18 months, Noah became completely non-verbal, underwent behavioural changes, and suffered from constant diarrhea.
• The paediatrician said that Noah's condition was normal. However, his condition only worsened.
• Then, Noah was diagnosed with autism. This gave them funding for treatment and support.

[13:56] Discovery of an Underlying Gut Issue

• The possibility that Kirsty passed on her diarrhea issue to Noah was always at the back of her mind.
• They found a doctor who listened to their suspicion that Noah has an underlying condition.
• After testing Noah's stool sample, they discovered that he had Clostridium difficile, a type of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
• This bacteria releases endotoxin that compromises the gut and the blood-brain barrier.
• They found that the endotoxin in Noah's body had attached to the brain receptors responsible for socialisation and learning.

[17:21] Undergoing Fecal Microbial Transplant (FMT)

• Kirsty and her two children participated in a research study in Canada. There, they underwent a fecal microbial transplant.
• Their guts were flushed with antibiotics to get rid of everything, including the Clostridium difficile. These were then replaced with donors' microbes.
• Kirsty's children were the youngest people to undergo FMT. While they were there, Noah started becoming more sociable.
• Not everyone needs to undergo FMT to recover their gut. There are now many ways to modulate the gut, one of which is eating healthy foods.
• Tune in to the full episode to hear more about Noah's recovery and development as a teen!

[25:42] Getting Diagnosed with PANDAS

• PANDAS is an autoimmune neurological condition associated with an antigen. Both Kirsty and Noah got diagnosed with it.
• It stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections.
• Listen to the full podcast to learn more about PANDAS and how Kirsty acquired it!

[33:13] Looking After Your Microbiome

• Test, don't guess. Get a comprehensive stool analysis.
• Kirsty uses two tests for her clients.
• You need to be intentional in choosing healthy foods. Include fermented and nourishing food for your gut.
• Also, remember that diets do not work. No amount of willpower can go against our primal built-in set point.

[46:10] Two Types of Fermented Food and Their Effect on the Body

• The first is the wild type. This includes histamine-forming foods or lactate-forming metabolites.
• Our gut has microbes that consume histamine and help us not develop histamine issues.
• The second is uncultured ferment. These are specific ferments in a controlled environment with specifically chosen strains.
• People struggling with lactate-forming metabolites should choose D-lactate bacteria strains.
• These strains break down and down-regulate histamines without causing reactions.

[48:50] Incorporating Fermented Healthy Foods into Your Diet

• You can start with small amounts of uncultured ferment to build out your microbiome.
• Then, you can start dabbling with wild ferments.
• Kirsty develops cultures with nine different strains that have efficacy for autoimmune, neurological, and digestive conditions.
• Kultured Wellness offers a starter culture that you make yourself. Listen to the full episode to know the ingredients and the procedure!

[53:05] On Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes

• One capsule of probiotics in the market has around 3 million CFU or colony-forming units.
• Meanwhile, a cup of Kultured Wellness yoghurt has 41 billion CFU.
• The absence of digestive enzymes and stomach acid is a major problem today.
• Fermented food helps with this problem because it has already been pre-digested from the fermenting process.
• Fermented food doesn't require a robust amount of digestive enzymes. In fact, it supports the excretion of stomach acid.

[57:06] Parting Advice

• Be curious and try your best to connect with your body.
• You're in a state of fight or flight all the time when you're unwell.
• We should not be focusing on DNA; it's the microbes that affect our DNA.
• Being curious, taking responsibility, owning it, and wanting more for yourself is crucial.

7 Powerful Quotes

'I have seen how important your gut is and how it can completely change the pathway of your life. It can completely change who you are as a person.'

'You don't just suddenly wake up one day and you've got cognition issues; that's coming from somewhere.'

'So the first thing is just test, don't guess... We [can] really find out what is happening in our gut, and we can find out what it is doing to the rest of our body.'

'If you want to make change, you've got to front up to make the change.'

'If they don't include fermented foods and they don't include nourishing foods for their gut, they're relying on willpower. No one can get anywhere with willpower.'

'It's what everyone finds hard and doesn't know, is that you should never rely on willpower. Diets will never work.'

'DNA is not what we should be focusing on. It's actually the microbes and those fungi and viruses that make up our whole body that actually interacts through that.'

About Kirsty

Kirsty Wirth is the founder of Kultured Wellness and an expert in cultures, gut health, and probiotics. Kultured Wellness is a company dedicated to providing knowledge and healthy foods for optimum gut health. As an integrative health coach, Kirsty's area of interest is in how lifestyle, environment, and diet can impact gut health and the immune system.

Drawing on her background and years of research, Kirsty educates people on the root cause behind underlying conditions. Her mission is to spread the word about the benefits of healthy foods, particularly fermented food in nourishing the gut's microbiome.

If you want to learn more about Kultured Wellness, you may visit their website. You can reach out to Kirsty on Instagram and Facebook. You can also send her an email at mailto:[email protected].

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can be inspired to eat healthy foods for their gut health.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

Health optimisation often involves a good diet, sleep, and exercise. But do we know how to implement practices that are compatible with our bodies? For some people, intense exercise can lead to more oxidative stress and inflammation! Not only that, some of us take medication and pills to treat pain and hormones, but are these really helping?

Small actions today can lead to big problems in the future.

Kashif Khan from The DNA Company joins us in this episode to talk about how understanding our DNA can help us make better choices for our health. Diseases can be prevented with healthy habits. But before you try any DNA testing, you should understand the nuances within the genetic industry. With Kashif's advice, you can learn to choose a provider that can help you take actionable steps.

If you want to know more about the science behind DNA testing for health optimisation, then this episode is for you!

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

Customised Online Coaching for Runners

CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer Without Burnout & Injuries

Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles?

Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler?

​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements

NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor

Feel Healthier and Younger*

Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.

What is NMN?

NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life.

Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.

Support Your Healthy Ageing

We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today.

Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all

• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules
• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules

Quality You Can Trust — NMN

Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility

Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined

• Cellular Health
• Energy & Focus
• Bone Density
• Skin Elasticity
• DNA Repair
• Cardiovascular Health
• Brain Health
• Metabolic Health

My 'Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Discover how our bodies are a whole system of processes and how our genes can be affected by many factors such as lifestyle and behaviour.
2. Learn the differences in DNA testing companies and how you can get the best value out of your reports.
3. Understand how to boost your immunity and prevent diseases!

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.
• A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!
• Past episodes with Dr Mansoor Mohammed:
• • Episode 181 - Understanding Your Genetic Hormone Pathways
  • Episode 160 - Understanding Your Own DNA
• Connect with Kashif: LinkedIn I Twitter I Facebook
• Know how you can change your lifestyle based on your genes. Learn more on The DNA Company.
• Tiny Habits by Dr. BJ Fogg
• Books by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler
• • The Future Is Faster Than You Think
  • Bold
  • Abundance

Episode Highlights [04:09] Understanding What Your DNA Means

• Every process in your body is being driven by genetic instructions.
• Kashif's company set out to make these instructions more actionable for their clients.
• You can do a quick online search of 'DNA testing near me' and get many hits, but you won't get the results you want out of these.
• Many of our diseases are preventable; consistently making the wrong choices can lead us to develop these illnesses.
• Those choices will not be the same for everyone. You can look at your genetics to see what the right choices are for you.

[08:11] Know What You're Testing For

• Most companies offering DNA testing tend to make conclusions based on a single gene. However, the body is more complex than that.
• Many of these DNA tests don't really dive deep into your health.
• To make their business model profitable, many businesses in the genetic industry sell their patient's data to pharmaceutical companies.
• The genetic industry has been used as a data collection machine. Kashif's vision for their company is to turn this situation around and derive key insights for their consumers.

[12:35] The Role of Hormones in Health

• Kashif observes that their company has had the biggest impact on women's healthcare.
• This is due to the massive gap between what women need and what is provided by traditional healthcare.
• There is a widespread belief that women are supposed to have hormone-related issues like PMS. However, this should not be the case.
• Tune in to the full episode to find out how Kashif helped pinpoint his niece's hormone issues using DNA testing and analysis.

[19:26] Covering Up the Symptoms

• The healthcare industry tends to look at a problem in isolation and try to treat it with medication.
• Treating hormonal issues is not as simplistic as prescribing pills for the hormones a patient lacks. Listen to the full episode to hear more insights on this topic!
• For instance, we're led to believe that women are prone to breast cancer when they reach menopause. However, this condition is preventable.

[24:01] Applying AI to DNA Testing

• Kashif's company found it challenging to train clinicians to interpret results from DNA testing.
• To remedy this problem, they are using AI technology to create personalised reports and recommendations.
• As a result, their reports are now much more comprehensive. It even analyses your mood and behaviour—crucial factors when it comes to dealing with your health.

[30:05] Understanding Your Mood and Behaviour

• Lisa's high adrenaline and lack of dopamine receptors manifest in an action-oriented behaviour.
• Kashif shares that having low dopamine receptors can also lead to addiction or depression. That's because you are predisposed to not experience reward and pleasure.
• Curious to know how your genes affect your mood? Find out how DNA testing can shed a light on this in the full episode!
• You can view your gene expressions two-fold: a weakness and a superpower. For instance, you may think that you are irritable. But that also makes you detail-oriented.

[35:50] Change Takes Effort

• Kashif's company is focused on solving and preventing problems.
• People may get great recommendations, but the real challenge lies in implementation and change.
• Community and accountability are important to help people stay on track.
• Group accountability with people in similar situations can increase motivation and persistence.

[42:21] Prevention is the Key

• The current healthcare system is based on a reactive model rather than a preventive one.
• Diseases can be prevented; we don't need to reach a point of crisis until we take action.
• In the US, the Center for Disease Control created a Diabetes Prevention Program, the first of its kind in the country.

[47:31] Health at the Cellular Level

• Diseases are born from inflammation, which is based on cellular health. Cellular health depends on the body's capacity for detoxification and oxidative stress.
• Simple activities like golfing can have long term effects. Kashif shares that golfers may be in danger of inhaling pesticides in golf courses.
• Exercise may work for some people. However, people with weaker SOD2 are prone to oxidative stress and more toxicity in the blood.
• Your genetics will dictate what kind and how much exercise you should do. Listen to the full episode to learn more!

[56:34] The Future of Healthcare

• Beyond DNA testing and analysis, it's important to have someone knowledgeable on your end. They can help patients get the most value out of the reports.
• New technologies tend to go through different phases. These involve deception, disruption, dematerialisation, demonetisation, and democratisation.
• The technology in the genetic industry is becoming more accessible. It is now near the latter phases of technology development.

7 Powerful Quotes

'We didn't go study DNA. There's enough science out there already. We studied people. We said, "Let's start at what's wrong with this person? What are they expressing as a symptom? Let's drill down genetically to see where is the system failing."'

'Of all the things we do, female hormone health is where we had the biggest impact. Not because we're the greatest, but because it's the worst experience in current healthcare.'

'The DNA world looks at things in terms of disease. So you can speak at it that way. But there's so much more to it than that if you know how to interpret it.'

'We believe coaching is primarily around accountability. So we have coaches we train that understand the reports, that can help.'

'We're all coming out of the same model, I suppose this reactive healthcare model. Really, we're inventing the future of healthcare.'

'That's only then when you have that persistence and the resilience to actually go through with these changes that you're actually going to get new results.'

'This reactive system that we're living in at the moment and the current model is just bloody bandaids on festering wounds.'

About Kashif

Kashif Khan is the founder and CEO of The DNA Company, a functional genomics company. They help people understand their unique genetic code and how to unlock their physical potential. If you're looking for 'DNA testing near me', their company is the one to call. They ensure actionable advice through a comprehensive genomic profile.

Kashif is also the co-founder and CEO of Younutrients. Their company provides supplement formulations personalised to people's unique needs. In addition, he is also an investor and serial entrepreneur. He has helped build, scale, and run several businesses across different industries. He has advised early-stage startups and Fortune 500 companies including the Royal Bank of Canada and Cirque du Soleil.

Interested in Kashif's work? Check out The DNA Company.

You can also reach out to Kashif on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can be inspired to search for 'DNA testing near me' and optimise their health.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

.You've most likely experienced pain at least once in your life. When you visit a medical doctor for pain relief, they might prescribe you painkillers. Similar to other traditional medical programs, you would find that this is passive. This is because your clinician is trained to treat the pain as a symptom rather than target the underlying cause of it. But fret not. There is a novel neuromodulatory approach that is now being developed by researchers to mitigate chronic pain.

This week, Exsurgo CEO Richard Little joins us on Pushing the Limits to explain how neurofeedback technology can revolutionise how we handle chronic pain. Their device is relatively inexpensive and can drastically improve the quality of life of millions of people worldwide.

If you want to know more about how medical innovations are changing the landscape of healthcare, then this episode is for you!

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements

NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor

Feel Healthier and Younger*

Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.

What is NMN?

NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life.

Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.

Support Your Healthy Ageing

We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today.

Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all

• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules
• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules

Quality You Can Trust — NMN

Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility

Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined

• Cellular Health
• Energy & Focus
• Bone Density
• Skin Elasticity
• DNA Repair
• Cardiovascular Health
• Brain Health
• Metabolic Health

My 'Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Understand the nature of pain and how it affects the lives of those who experience it.
2. Learn the process behind neurofeedback technology which could change how we deal with chronic pain.
3. Discover why medical technology is the cheaper and better alternative to opioid pills when it comes to chronic pain relief.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.
• Exsurgo
• Dr Peter Diamandis' books:
• • The Future is Faster Than You Think
  • Abundance

Episode Highlights [05:18] How Richard's Story Started

• He is an engineer and not a clinician by profession but got inspired by his personal history to help people in the medical field.
• Their core mission is to make life easier for patients and clinicians while getting a better result and saving money.
• Currently, they are in the field of neuroscience. Their products can relieve chronic pain as effectively as prescription drugs but without side effects.

[07:27] How the Neurofeedback Device Works

• Exsurgo specialises in a neurofeedback device that trains the brain not to respond to pain impulses.
• It was made through the concept of neuroplasticity––the trainability of the brain and its signalling patterns.
• This device measures electrical activity in the brain related to pain.
• When connected to a wireless device, these signals are transmitted to a game that rewards you whenever your pain signals go down.
• This technology can hopefully be able to counteract the opioid crisis and the drawbacks of pain pills.

[14:46] Chronic Pain is a Negative Feedback Loop

• Pain can cause difficulties in getting quality sleep, which in turn causes anxiety and negative moods.
• The torture of chronic pain extends to other aspects of patients' lives.
• Richard's company has found that a biochemical and electrical change in the brain also results in positive physical changes.
• Listen to the full episode to learn the story of a school headmistress who reduced her chronic pain and finger inflammation with Exsurgo's help!
• They are in the process of pushing the boundaries of what current technology can do, as research on chronic pain and inflammation are still lacking.

[19:53] Behind Richard's Innovations

• Richard's mother had a shocking and sudden stroke. Exurgo initially aimed to handle stroke rehabilitation.
• Eventually, they pivoted to chronic pain as it was the most significant issue the industry faced at the time.
• His friend had multiple sclerosis, which affected his ability to walk. So, they set out to build a robotic leg and exoskeleton to help patients' mobility.
• Over time, many doctors have asked for Richard's help to build medical devices for their patients.
• Due to advancements in medical technology, patients' expectations of health care have increased. However, these innovations typically cost thousands of dollars.

[26:49] Exsurgo's Mission

• Richard aims to build devices to help both patients and clinicians while remaining relatively inexpensive.
• They also use gamification to make their treatment options more appealing to the public.
• They offer a subscription model for their products so that patients can do their rehab at home.

[34:48] Learning About Pain

• Pain diagnosis is still largely unscientific and arbitrary.
• However, technology is developing at such a rapid rate. We will soon be able to predict who will experience pain after surgery.
• We will be able to relieve pain before it happens using neurofeedback.
• Richard's company is looking into anxiety, depression, and concussions. Tune in to the full episode to know more about how they plan to apply their research on concussions!

[38:59] The Disconnect Between Tech Projects and Medicine

• The medical technology field is heavily regulated.
• It costs millions to get products out to the market, making people hesitant to invest in them.
• Most technologies still fail, so having a burning passion for helping patients is necessary if you want to survive in the field.
• Shareholder alignment is crucial when it comes to funding medical innovations.

[45:50] The Opiate Crisis

• Due to the opiate crisis, pharmaceutical companies are now recognising that they need to do something different.
• This issue needs the joint efforts of the private sector and the government to be resolved.

[47:18] Getting their Device to Market

• They are currently in clinical trials, which are the value of a company.
• Exsurgo hopes to launch the product sometime early next year and make it as affordable as possible.
• They were surprised by the number of people with chronic pain hoping to get a hold of their product. So, they are aiming to keep up on the production side.
• Richard shares that he made many mistakes and rode the ups and downs before getting to this point.
• A crucial piece of his current success is choosing and working with the right investors and clinicians.

[1:00:14] The Technology Behind their Work

• Brain-computer interfaces are all about understanding the patterns and applying them to solve various medical issues.
• Every time someone uses their device, they get millions of lines of data. The more data they gather, the more they can improve their technology.
• Listen to the full episode to learn exactly how the product works and what the whole team does to develop it!

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

'Our kind of basic mission is to make life easier for clinicians and patients while getting a better result and saving money. If we can do those things, then we've done something fantastic.'

'If I can make the clinicians' life easier, and the patient's life easier to fit into both of their workflows, their daily life, while getting a good result and saving money, then we have something that would be worth doing.'

'We all know what it's like when you have exercises to do by the doctor or the physio, we don't want to do them, you know, so gamification actually really helps with that.'

'It'd be easier to give up than it would be to keep going, I'm sure in a lot of the things that you do. It's that passion, and it's a drive, and it's that connection to the patients, once you see it, you can't unsee it.'

'Make lots of mistakes. Keep trying. You don't start off on that journey. I wasn't sitting on an oil rig one day, and I knew I'm going to build some medical device companies.'

'The patients are too important. I couldn't live with myself if I gave up on this journey because patients are going to suffer.'

'There's a brilliant team behind all of this, you know, there's so many specialties and so many different things. They're all driven by that same passion to actually help people at the end of the day, and it will affect millions, 10s of millions of people's lives over the next coming years.'

About Richard

Richard Little is an innovator, entrepreneur, engineer, and roboticist. He is the CEO of Exsurgo, a neurofeedback company. They are developing a cutting-edge device that could revolutionise the way we deal with chronic pain and improve the lives of millions of people worldwide.

He has held different directorships and C-level positions in engineering, military, and medical businesses. One of these is Rex Bionics, where they developed an exoskeleton that could provide mobility to wheelchair-bound patients.

If you want to learn more about Richard and his work in the medical technology space, visit his company website.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn more about the future of pain relief.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

How can we hack the human body to reach its full potential — and beyond? Right now, we can't stop aging. However, we can slow it down by optimising our health to lead long and fulfilling lives. One day, we may even be able to age backwards. Through biohacking, we can use the latest medical research to our body's advantage.

Dave Asprey, the Father of Biohacking and longevity expert, joins us in this episode. Working with renowned doctors and scientists, Dave has created a solution to innovate and hack our systems to push the limits of what the human body can do. He also shares advice on fasting, longevity, and the measures he takes to live a long and healthy life.

If you want to learn more about biohacking to improve your health and well-being, then this episode is for you! You'll find out what it takes to live a longer and more fulfilling life.

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

Customised Online Coaching for Runners

CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer Without Burnout & Injuries

Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles?

Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler?

​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements

NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor

Feel Healthier and Younger*

Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.

What is NMN?

NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life.

Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.

Support Your Healthy Ageing

We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today.

Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all

• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules
• NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules
• 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules

Quality You Can Trust — NMN

Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility

Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined

• Cellular Health
• Energy & Focus
• Bone Density
• Skin Elasticity
• DNA Repair
• Cardiovascular Health
• Brain Health
• Metabolic Health

My 'Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn how Dave Asprey started the biohacking movement.
2. Discover more about the science of fasting and how this can be beneficial for those who want to live longer.
3. Dave Asprey shares his takes on anti-aging research and the current state of the pharmaceutical industry.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.
• Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:
• • #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova
  • #187: Back to Basics: Slow Down Ageing and Promote Longevity with Dr Elizabeth Yurth
  • #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova
  • #196: Rethinking the Function of Mitochondria for Our Health with Dr Elizabeth Yurth
• Connect with Dave Asprey: Facebook | Twitter | Youtube | Instagram | LinkedIn | website
• Bulletproof
• • Bulletproof Coffee
• Bulletproof Radio
• • How to Live Your Life After Great Loss – Amanda Kloots with Dave Asprey
• Check out Dave's books:
• • Head Strong
  • The Better Baby Book
  • Fast This Way
  • The Bulletproof Diet
  • Super Human
• Enrol for free: Dave Asprey 14-Day Sleep Challenge
• Moldy documentary

Episode Highlights [05:15] Dave's Journey to Becoming the Father of Biohacking

• In his mid-20's, Dave already exhibited the diseases of aging.
• He tried exercising and going on a diet to lose weight. However, Dave didn't reap the results he wanted.
• With his experience in Silicon Valley, Dave started to look at his body's systems as a hacker would.
• This change in perspective led to the birth of biohacking. Since then, he has shared his findings with the world through his programs, speaking engagements, products, and books.

[10:37] What Fasting Can Do For You

• For ten years, Dave worked with a community of people teaching intermittent fasting as part of the Bulletproof Diet.
• Autophagy is when the body cleans out old cells and old proteins.
• You don't get the full effects of autophagy if you eat three meals a day or consume carbohydrates and sugars.
• There are different benefits to having periods where you go without eating food.
• Fasting is not about suffering; it's about knowing how not to be hungry as you fast.

[14:51] Biohacking Tips on Fasting

• Have black coffee in the morning. This drink amplifies your body's ability to make ketones.
• You can also choose to add grass-fed butter and MCT oil. The combination gives you more hunger suppressants.
• Finally, you can add prebiotic fibre to your black coffee. It's a fibre that doesn't raise your insulin and blood sugar levels.
• As long as you don't have any protein and carbs that raise insulin, your body remains in a fasted state.

[18:32] Fasting From All Sorts of Things

• Fasting from oxygen, which is called 'breathwork', is a big part of biohacking.
• We could choose to go without the things that are causing the biological effects we don't want.
• Fasting is about what you're trying to achieve, like getting rid of harmful proteins in your body to bring in good nutrients.

[20:07] How to Deal with LPS

• When a living organism feels threatened, they react in three ways: fear, food, and fertility. You either run away, eat everything, or ensure the survival of your species.
• Fasting threatens your gut bacteria. In response to fasting, they secrete toxins called lipopolysaccharides (LPS) to keep the other bacteria from competing.
• In response, your liver will ask for sugar to oxidise the LPS.
• Fasting can make your gut bacteria unhappy and cause cravings. Toxin binders like activated charcoal work incredibly well to counteract this effect.
• According to Dave, activated charcoals induces a 15% life extension in rats who take it regularly.

[23:30] On Supplements to Take When Fasting

• Your fat stores toxins. If you're losing weight, you're gaining toxins unless you bind them.
• Advanced supplements include senolytics and spermidine.

• Spermidine was not readily available before; it used to be a very expensive research chemical.
• Dave instead took probiotics from Japan that helped his body make spermidine.
• A chapter in Fast This Way has a list of safe, effective supplements to use during a fast.

[26:15] Fasting is Like Exercising

• While fasting, you need a certain amount of oxidative stress.
• If you were to remove all the stressors during a fast, you won't get the benefits of fasting.

[28:41] The Paradigm Shift in Our Medical System

• Dave traces back the problem to when the FTC allowed pharmaceutical companies to advertise in the US.
• We're good at recognising short-term patterns but terrible at seeing long term consequences.
• Our reactions to COVID are exaggerated. In reality, the actual risk is much lower.
• However, pharmaceutical companies amplify the risk because they make money from governments through the virus.
• We need to take the pharmaceutical companies away from the doctors.

[34:57] Being Vi-Curious

• Dave was not opposed to vaccines before the pandemic. He identifies himself as vi-curious, or vaccine industry curious.
• In Superhuman, Dave writes about the four big killers. He notes that he's looking forward to getting well-tested vaccines for these diseases.
• Having this conversation about being preventative and optimising your health is necessary to understand how our biology works.
• There are some unknown risks to both the vaccines and the virus.

• Being vi-curious means you're in the middle of those who are vaccine-promiscuous and anti-vaxxers. It's where 90% of the people are.

[40:35] Doing Something We Don't Want to Do

• We're stiff-armed into doing things we don't necessarily want to do.
• You don't have to react with anxiety or fear. Instead, you can react with intelligence, logic, and thought.
• We have a long history of not having as much control as we want.
• Medical freedom is one of the most precious rights. It means you have a right to decide what you put into your body.

[42:00] Dave's Take on Longevity

• Dave believes that he can live until he's 180.
• If we don't destroy the planet, we can do 50% better than today because of all the constant advancements in technology and research.
• We are cracking the core biology behind aging and our ability to replenish our systems.
• Sooner or later, technology that was once expensive will be more readily available.
• Dave aims to show the effectiveness of these technologies. By increasing demand and supply, prices will drop.

[47:11] Individuals Over 60 Tend to Be Happier

• When we're young, we worry about what everyone else is thinking about us.
• Then, when we're middle-aged, we're more concerned about what we think of others.
• However, when we're old, we realise people don't think about us as much. People who have enough energy and don't have medical problems at this age tend to be much happier.
• Dave hopes that we can go back to awake and powerful elders.
• The goal of the anti-aging community is to have people whose brains work like young people but have the wisdom of age.

[49:15] How Dave Asprey Creates an Impact

• For five years, Dave taught at the University of California and worked at the company that held Google's first servers.
• Biology behaves very much like how the internet does. If you can hack a system, that means you can hack the human body.
• These experiences prepared Dave to start the biohacking movement.
• If what you're teaching is efficient and you keep sharing it, you can build a movement of your own.
• Doing so takes a lot of time and energy, so it has to be worth it. In Dave's case, it is.

7 Powerful Quotes

'Fasting isn't a lack of energy going into the body. Fasting is going without. And the hallmarks of fasting are insulin doesn't go up. And your levels of something called mTOR don't go up.'

'Maybe you're in the middle. In fact, I will tell you right now, 90% of people are in the middle. And it's the angry people who yell at the extreme anti-vax and the extreme vaccine promiscuous side — they're bullies.'

'You're already stiff-armed into doing all sorts of stuff you don't want to do it. But you don't have to react with anxiety or fear. You can react with intelligence, and logic, and thought.'

'Medical freedom is one of the most precious rights. That means you have a right to choose what you put into your body and what you don't put in your body from a food perspective, from a supplements perspective, and from a pharmaceutical perspective.'

'We are cracking the core biology behind aging and our ability to replenish and repair and rejuvenate our systems. So it's your job: age a little bit less quickly, prepare yourself a little bit better. Every year, the technology gets better and better.'

'People who have enough energy and don't have medical problems as they age tend to be much happier because they've learned the skill of being happy. It turns out we can teach our younger people that, and the way we've always done that is through coming-of-age rituals.'

'The more successful you are, the more the crazy 5% sociopaths and psychopaths yell and scream and complain online.'

About Dave

Dave Asprey is an entrepreneur, author, host of Bulletproof Radio, and founder of Bulletproof. He is widely known as the Father of Biohacking. Over the last 20 years, Dave has worked with numerous medical and scientific experts to uncover and develop innovative methods to push the potentials of the human body. Through this, he has created the Bulletproof Diet and innovated Bulletproof Coffee and other wellness products.

Dave has also written extensively on his experiences with biohacking technologies and research. He's a four-time New York Times best-selling author. His mission is to empower individuals worldwide on the techniques of biohacking to lead long and fulfilling lives.

You can reach Dave on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Instagram, and LinkedIn. You can also check out his website and Bulletproof to know more about him and his work.

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If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your connections, so they can find out how biohacking can help them lead long and fulfilling lives.

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To pushing the limits,

Lisa

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

We live in a fast-paced world, with more everyday demands. And we know that we need good health to keep up. Nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness are often hailed as important pillars. However, there is something even more fundamental for better health—sleep. Sleep ensures we can actually perform. With better sleep, we'll be living better lives. But, how many of us actually prioritise sleep?

Dr Kirk Parsley joins us in this episode to explain how sleep affects our lives. Poor sleep can significantly change our bodies and performance. He also shares that we can achieve good sleep through lifestyle changes. A better life is not about taking more supplements or using gadgets and tools; it's about creating new and better habits.

If you want to know more about the science of sleep and how sleep affects our lives, then this episode is for you.

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn how sleep affects our lives and why it is so fundamental to our health.
2. Understand that it's more important to change our behaviours and lifestyle rather than depending on supplements.
3. Discover the ways we can create the right conditions for better sleep.

Resources

• Get Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy here!
• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!
• Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:
• • Episode with Mark Divine
• Connect with Dr Kirk: Website I LinkedIn I Instagram I Facebook I Email
• You can also get the free downloadable resource on decreasing stress before sleep here.
• The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine
• • Dr. Kirk Parsley - How to Supercharge Your Sleep
  • Dr. Kirk Parsley on Sleep And Longevity
• Melatonin Supplementation with Dr John Lieurance in the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.
• Melatonin: The Miracle Molecule by Dr John Lieurance
• Dr Harch's Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy
• America's Frontline Doctors
• How to save the world, in three easy steps. from Bret Weinstein's DarkHorse Podcast

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

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If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at [email protected], we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at [email protected].

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My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

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Episode Highlights [03:28] How Dr Kirk Started Working on Sleep

• Dr Kirk used to work for the SEALs. Later on, he enrolled in the military's medical school.
• After getting his degree, Dr Kirk became the manager of a sports medicine facility for the military. Here, he worked with other medical experts.
• Those in the military will usually lie to healthcare providers so they won't get excluded from work, but they tend to be more honest with Dr Kirk because they have worked with him before.
• After testing for vitamin deficiencies and adrenal fatigue, Dr Kirk realised that many of his patients were taking Ambien, a sleeping drug.
• After learning more about sleep, Dr Kirk realised that every symptom his patients were presenting could be explained by poor sleeping.

[17:31] Sleep's Various Cycles

• With a sleep drug, you are just unconscious and not sleeping.
• Proper sleep needs to go through a repetitive pattern of deep sleep at the beginning of the night and then REM sleep by morning.
• The different cycles are important since they affect our bodies in different ways.
• Sleep can help boost your immunity and memory! Learn more benefits in the full episode.

[20:12] How Sleep Affects Our Lives

• If you don't give yourself time to recover, sleep pressure can accumulate and have progressively worse effects.
• If you go to bed with high stress hormones, this can worsen your sleep. Poor sleep then leads to higher stress levels, and the cycle gets worse.
• People who get poor sleep age faster, not just in appearance but also in their physiology.
• Poor sleep can lead to protein structure breakdown, decreased blood supply, aged tissues, and more.
• As we age, we also face the problem of not repairing as fast. This is how sleep affects our lives.

[23:56] The Foundation For Better Health

• We are often taught the basics of health are sleep, nutrition, exercise, and stress management.
• However, these pillars cannot function without sleep as their foundation, emphasising how sleep affects our lives.
• For example, exercise becomes counterproductive when you're sleep deprived because you're not recovering.
• Poor sleep can also change your insulin sensitivity and gut biome, which changes your nutrition levels. Because of how sleep affects our lives, it should be our priority.
• Sleep deprivation is the fastest way to break someone down, this is why it's used as an interrogation technique.

[28:35] How Do We Sleep?

• We need eight hours of sleep a night.
• Make your sleeping routine simple. The more complex it is, the more likely you will fail.
• First, convince yourself that sleep is important.
• We are all born to sleep, and we don't need to learn how.
• Before electricity, people used to fall asleep three hours after sunset. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about the neurochemical process of sleep.

[35:36] Creating the Right Conditions for Sleep

• During sleep, our senses still work, but they don't pay as much attention to external stimuli.
• For our ancestors, the sunset will lead to decreased blue light, decreased temperature, decreased stimuli, and increased melatonin.
• Better sleep is just creating these conditions in our environment.
• If we take melatonin, we should be careful to take only small amounts.

[39:20] Melatonin Supplementation

• Some have argued that melatonin supplementation does not downregulate our brain receptors, but there are no definitive studies on this yet.
• In fact, measuring melatonin is difficult due to its quantity and concentration in each part of the brain.
• It's okay to take melatonin supplements but not in physiologic amounts.

[45:15] Can We Reverse Aging?

• You need to understand your genetics and what ratios will work for you.
• While good habits and supplements can improve your overall health, we don't know if it undoubtedly reverses age.
• Our bodies are more complex than we think. Shorting yourself two hours of sleep can change over 700 different epigenetic markers.
• We can only describe biology. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time.
• Dr Kirk also shares his experience with hyperbaric oxygen therapy in the full episode.

[1:03:36] Paradigm Shifts in the Medical Industry

• There is a lot of dishonesty in both the media and the medical industry.
• Many doctors and medical experts have been silenced on potentially better cures, especially during this pandemic.
• Western medicine is effective in treating the sick, but it doesn't keep people from getting severely sick in the first place.
• A lifestyle change is more important than taking supplements.

[1:12:22] The Importance Of Behaviour Change

• People often don't want to work on their behaviour because taking medicine is easier.
• We also need to be aware of how the food industry is tapping into our addictive mechanisms to keep us eating more.
• Caffeine consumption can also ruin our sleep. More than 200 milligrams can give the opposite effect of staying awake and alert.
• Learn exactly how sleep affects our lives, together with caffeine and sugar consumption, when you listen to the full episode.

[1:19:40] Widespread Impressions on Sleep and How It Affects Our Lives

• People have grown to believe that sleep is for the weak and lazy.
• This belief also impacts our children, especially since they are still developing.
• Losing two hours of sleep can decrease testosterone and growth hormone by 30% and increase inflammation by 30%, among others.
• Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system.
• Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, experiences a shift during adolescence.

[1:26:34] How Sleep Affects Our Lives as Kids

• Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system.
• Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, is formed during adolescence.
• Furthermore, adolescents also require more sleep because of a shift in their circadian rhythm.
• Requiring kids to do more with less sleep interferes with their development.

[1:31:40] How Sleep Affects Our Lives When We are Sick

• A new field in medicine called chronobiology is studying how sleep deprivation precedes any psychiatric disease or psychological flare-up.
• An Ivy League hospital managed to get their patients off medication by regulating their circadian rhythm and chronobiology.

[1:34:34] It's More Than Switching Things On and Off

• Medications can be difficult to get off because they have too many side effects.
• For example, most antidepressants are not just working on serotonin. Instead, they affect several neurotransmitters as well.
• Physiological doses are artificial and can cause you more trouble.
• Learn how sleep medication and affects GABA receptors that slow down the brain when you listen to the full episode.

[1:41:17] Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy

• Dr Kirk discusses how cavemen took around three hours after the sun went down to fall asleep. In the present day, what can people do in those three hours?
• To fall asleep, stress hormones need to come down due to lifestyle.
• Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy involves getting the proper ratios of substances.
• His product comes in the form of tea, stick pouches, and capsules.

[1:46:27] Dr Kirk's Final Advice

• Change your environment by decreasing blue light and stimulation.
• Learn to slow everything down.
• Just like how you slow everything down to get a kid to sleep, so should you do the same for an adult.

7 Powerful Quotes

'You aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep.'

'Often, if you're sleep-deprived, more is worse for sure. You don't really need to do any exercises. You just stay active until you've recovered, and then you can exercise again.'

'Insulin sensitivity is decreased by 30%, just by losing two hours of sleep. One night with two hours of sleep. So you go from sleeping eight hours of sleep to six. If you're pre-diabetic, you're waking up diabetic.'

'Even though I'm known for sleep, the hardest thing for me to coach people to do is to sleep.'

'The most sleep-deprived years are the most horrible years of the brain development.'

'Get rid of the blue light. Decrease the stimulation. Lower your body temperature. That's sleep hygiene.'

'Part of lowering stress is just slowing down your thinking. You can't work on your computer until 9:59 and get in bed in 10 and think you're gonna be asleep.'

About Dr Kirk

Dr Kirk Parsley was a former Navy SEAL who went on to earn his medical degree from Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences (USUHS) in Bethesda in 2004. From 2009 to 2013, he served as an Undersea Medical Officer at the Naval Special Warfare Group One. He also served as the Naval Special Warfare's expert on sleep medicine.

Dr Kirk has been a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine since 2006 and consults for multiple corporations and professional athletes. He gives lectures worldwide on wellness, sleep, and hormonal optimisation. He believes that many diseases and disorders are unnecessary complications of poor sleeping habits. We can achieve the highest quality of life possible by changing this habit problem.

Interested in Dr Kirk's work? Check out his website.

You can also reach him on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and email.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how sleep affects our lives and what we can do about it.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

Full Transcript of the Podcast

Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com.

Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone! And welcome to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have another amazing guest for you. I managed to get some incredible people. I have Dr Kirk Parsley with me. He is an ex-Navy SEAL, and also a medical doctor. A little bit of an overachiever, this one. He spent many years in the SEALs, an incredible man. He also was involved with the first sports medicine rehabilitation centre that was working with the SEALs, an incredible expert on sleep. And that's what we do a deep dive into today. We also talk about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We also go into areas about the current state of the medical system, one of my favourite topics. And I hope you enjoy this episode. It's really, the most important thing is around sleep.

Sleep is something that all of us, I think, are underestimating its importance. And that this is the biggest lever, not food, not exercise, not meditation, not mindfulness, not anything else. Number one of all leverage points is sleep. So how the heck do you get enough sleep? What is enough sleep, and how to get it is what this episode is about.

Before we head over, I just want to remind you we have Boost Camp coming up. This is our eight-week live online program. There, Neil Wagstaff and I, my business partner and longtime friend and coach are doing. And we're going to, if you want to come and hang out with us live every week and learn everything about upgrading your life, basically, your performance, how to optimise all areas of your life, then we would love you to check the information out, head over to peakwellnessco.nz/boostcamp.

On that point, if you're also interested, come and check out our flagship program, which is our epigenetics program, where we look at your genetics, and how to optimise those specifically, all the areas of your life: your food, your nutrition, your exercise, your mood, and behaviour, your hormones, all these important areas, specifically to your genetics. One-on-one time with us and help us to understand everything about your genetics. It's an incredible platform and amazing AI technology behind us. And we'd love you to check that out.

Go to peakwellnessco.nz/epigenetics. Or reach out to me if you didn't get that. We will also have the links down in the show notes, if you want to just click over to that. Or you can just head over to my website, www.lisatamati.com. And hit the work with us button for our programs listed on there as well. So without further ado, now over to Dr Kirk Parsley.

Well, hi, everybody! And welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have a superstar, who is a good friend of Commander Mark Divine, you may have heard previous weeks on my podcast. We have Dr Kirk Parsley with us today. Welcome to the show.

Dr Kirk Parsley: Thank you. I feel very welcome and happy to be here. I'm still here. I'm happy to be sharing this airspace with you or whatever it is sharing.

Lisa: I'm really super excited. I've heard you a number of times on Mark's show and just thought how hefty you're on because you're such an expert. We're gonna dive into a little bit into your background, but you're an absolute sleep expert. So I'm really keen to help my audience with their sleep, and their sleep patterns, and all of that good stuff. But before we get into that, we were just chatting about genetics and endurance. So, give us a little background. You've been a Navy SEAL. You've been in the military, in the naval military. So give us a bit of background on yourself, personally.

Dr Kirk: Yes. So ironically, I actually dropped out of high school. I was a terrible student my whole life, didn't have any interest in school. And after you don't do well for long enough, you just convince yourself that you can't do well. And so you're just, 'I'm just done. I can't do it'. I was always very physical, very athletic. Just fortunately, genetic lottery, I won, just be an athletic and strong guy. And it came pretty easy to me. But I worked hard at it because I didn't do school work. So when I dropped out of high school, to join the military and do the hardest training in the world. And that was what the SEAL training was supposed to be, as the toughest training in the world like, 'Well, I'm gonna go do that.' So I went to do that.

This was a way long time ago. This is 1988. So, it was long before anybody knew what SEALs were. They didn't have the notoriety they have now for sure. And when I would come home from the Navy and tell people as I was a Sealer, like, 'What do you mean, you work for SeaWorld or something? What do you do?' Kinda. So, I went through SEAL training, I would say I made it through SEAL training, I became a SEAL. That was pre-9/11, obviously. So we didn't have the combat that the SEALs of this generation do. So it's not really comparable. We were still mainly working in Southeast Asia doing police work and training other militaries.

I did three deployments. It was really the same thing over, and over, and over again because there was no combat. So you just did the same training, and then you deployed, and then came home, and you did the same training. And of course, I was like, 'Maybe, I'll go do something else.' And I thought I would be—I was dating a woman who would become my wife. She was getting a master's in physical therapy. And I was reading her textbooks on deployment to make myself a better athlete. And I thought, maybe I could be a physical therapist. And so I started working, I started volunteering in a physical therapy facility in San Diego, called San Diego Sports Medicine Center. And it had every kind of health care provider you could possibly imagine. And this building, it's just this healthcare Mecca. It's the most holistic thing I've ever seen to this day.

I decided pretty quickly, I didn't want to be a physical therapist, but I don't know what else I wanted to do. But I got to follow the podiatrist around, and acupuncturist, and massage therapists, and athletic trainers, and conditioning coaches, and the orthopedist, and the family practice, and the sportsmen. I just got to follow them around and see how everybody worked. And a group of young doctors there, who were probably only five or six years older than me, and they were saying, 'Well, you should go to medical school.' And I was like, 'Pump the brakes, kiddo. I didn't even graduate high school. I'm not getting into medical school.' And then the senior doctor overhears the conversation. He comes out of the office. And he says, 'Kirk, the question isn't, "Can you get in?" The question is, "Would you go if you've got in?"' And I said, 'Of course, I'd go.' So, well, there you have it. So, he sort of shamed me into it/

I studied hard and got really good grades. And then when it came time to apply for medical school, this was pre-Internet, so you had to go to the bookstore and get your book review and look and see what schools are competitive for. And when I was going through one of those books, I found out that the military had their medical school. The military was a closed chapter in my mind. I'd done that. That's something that I figured I'd always do in my life. But it was never meant to be my whole life. And so I had done that. I was, I figured I was done. But I was already married and had kids. And I was like, 'Well, the military will pay me to go to medical school. Or I can pay someone else to go to medical school and my wife can work while we're in medical school.'

I made enough to support my family and go to medical school for free. And then to pay off in the military's, they'll train you to do anything. You have to give them years of service and your job. So once you finish your medical training, you have to be a doctor for the military for eight years. And so I figured, 'I'll get back to the SEAL teams, I'll go pay something back to the community that helped me, was hugely formidable in who I became in my life.' And went back to the SEAL teams, really well-prepped to do sports medicine and orthopedics. And I knew quite a bit about nutrition, and performance, and strength and conditioning. I was pretty sure I had the exact pedigree.

When I got there, they had just gotten the money to build a sports medicine facility, which was actually their vision was exactly what I told you that I worked in in college. That's exactly what they wanted to build. I'm like, 'I got this.' So they put me in charge of building this out. And I was a significant part of us hiring everyone we hired. So we hired our first strength and conditioning coach, our first nutritionist, our first PT, our first everything.

We built our own sports medicine facility. And then orthopedics was coming through every week, and they had to do rounds there. And we'd have pain rounds, pain management rounds come through. We had an acupuncturist coming through. And we hired all these people from the Olympic Training Center, and professional sports teams, and the best colleges. And so, we had all these brilliant people who knew way more than I did about what they do.

Lisa: So you went from there to there.

Dr Kirk: Yeah. And so at that point, I was the dumbest person around, right? Because we had all these experts in every little niche that I knew this much about. We hired experts who knew that much about. And so in the military, when you're the dumbest guy, they put you in charge, right and say, 'Well, you manage this,' right? And so, I'm managing all these people who know more than I do, however that works. But my office was in this facility that we built.

The SEALs are a lot like professional athletes in that you put them on a bench, so to speak, right? Because they're injured, they need some help. So they can't work. It's the worst thing. Worst thing. So when they see a health care provider, they just lie because they don't want to be—

Lisa: They don't wanna be taken out.

Dr Kirk Parsley: They will take money out of their pocket, and go into the city, and find a doctor to treat them so that the doctor at work doesn't know, so they don't get put on the sideline. But because I was a SEAL, and there were still a lot of SEALs at the SEAL team. It was close enough to my time. There are still a lot of SEALs at the team who I worked with, and I trained with, and deployed with. And so they knew me. And I had a good reputation. And so they trusted me, and they come in my office and they say, 'Let me tell you what's going on with me.'

They reported this litany of symptoms that didn't have any pattern that I could recognise. And so they were saying that their motivation was low, that they're very moody, that they couldn't concentrate. They're super forgetful. Their energy was low. Their body composition was shifting. They felt slower, and dumber, and colder. None of them were sleeping very well. They're all taking sleep drugs. They had low sex drive. They had a lot of joint pain, a lot of inflammation. And I didn't have the slightest idea. I'm like, 'And I know it sounds like you're obese and 65. But I'm looking at you and you're not. So I don't know what's going on.'

I just started testing everything I could possibly test. I tested literally 98 blood markers. They were giving 17 vials of blood. Now just shotgun approaches, test everything, and see what's abnormal. And I started seeing some patterns. And they had really low anabolic hormones, so the DBTA, and testosterone, and dihydrotestosterone, pregnenolone. All of that was low. They really have high inflammatory markers. They really had poor insulin sensitivity for how healthy I knew they were, and how well they ate, and how much they exercised. But it's still within the normal range. But it wasn't. Everything was in the normal range. But everything that should be really high was just like barely in the normal range. And everything that should be really low, it's just barely inside of that range.

They didn't have a disease. And I was a medical doctor, so I had learned how to treat disease, then they didn't have disease. So I was like, 'I don't know. What am I going to do?' So that led me to having to train with outside providers. And fortunately, at that time, the SEALs did have the reputation. They'd already done all these amazing things. This was in 2009. So, I think they'd already shot Bin Laden and at that point. So I could call anybody, right? I'd watch somebody's TED Talk, read their book, I'd see them lecture. And I'll just call them and say, 'I'm a doctor for the West Coast SEAL team. Could I come train with you? Can I consult with you? Can I ask you some questions?' And everybody was generous and said, 'Absolutely'. So I get to learn a lot really quickly.

I take a lot of leave from work and just go sit in these guys' clinics for four or five days. And just pick their brain, go see patients with them, and take notes, and learn. And then I just call them every time I have a question. And I just got to learn really quickly. It's like this team of experts who knew everything about the alternative world.

I was trying to treat people for adrenal fatigue. And I was trying to treat people for vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which are obvious from what was going on. And I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And about 100 patients into it, and probably after 30 guys came in, I could have told everybody, they could just sit down. I'll tell you what you're going to tell me. I could have just just route it off; it's so similar. And about 100 guys into it, embarrassing that it took so long, but I remember this guy telling me that he took Ambien every night. What do you guys call it? Stilnox, I think, right?

I was married to an Aussie, so I know a lot. I mean, I know you're not an Aussie, but I know a little bit about your world, as in your language. And I remember putting a note in the margin, 'Seems like a lot of guys take an Ambien.' Then I go back through everybody's records, 100% of the guys who had been in my office were taking Ambien. So I thought, 'Well, maybe that's an issue, right?' So, let me go look at the side effects of Ambien. And it was a fairly new drug. And the pharmaceutical industry, they get to cherry-pick their data. So they were like, 'Oh, it's the safest drug ever. There's nothing, no problems.' And I'm like, 'I don't quite believe that.'

Unfortunately, like every other doctor in America, I didn't know anything about sleep. I never had a single class on sleep in medical school, didn't have the foggiest idea what should be happening. I knew what you called a mechanism of action on this drug, which means molecularly what does it do. Well, it binds GABA receptors and has an effect called GABA analog, and benzodiazepines are the same, things like Valium. And so that's about as much as I knew, Well, what is GABA doing? What is GABA supposed to do? And then you can't really understand that without understanding what's actually going on in sleep.

Then, I had to learn about sleep physiology. And what's supposed to happen during sleep? And what are the normal shifts and changes? And what does that do? And if that doesn't happen, what effects do you get? So after studying quite a bit, I figured out the general Occam's razor principle of the thing with the least assumptions is, literally, every single symptom that these men told me about, could be explained by poor sleep.

Now, I didn't think that it would be, right? I wasn't naive, but it could have, then, right? So if this was definitely the most powerful thing, because being a Western doctor I wanted to give them Cortef and raise their cortisol. I wanted to give them testosterone and raise their testosterone. I wanted to get like, I wanted to give them medication to improve their insulin sensitivity. I wanted to just go in there and do it. But I couldn't do that, right? Because you can't give SEALs medication that they're dependent upon. Because then, what if they go out on the field, and they don't have their medication, they can't do their job and it's a waste. So that puts people on the bench, that disqualifies people. So I couldn't do that.

I had to figure out, well, what else can I do? So like I said, sleep seemed like the unifying theory. So let me see about that. And this was right around the time that everybody was catching on to the important vitamin B3. And that was associated with poor sleep. So, I tested all my guys. Every one of them had low vitamin B3. So I'm like, 'Yeah, I'm going to give them vitamin B3. I'm going to be a hero. Everyone is gonna love me. I'm the best doctor ever.' And it helped a little bit. But it wasn't everything.

Like I said, I had this epiphany with this sleep drug. And once I learned enough about the sleep drug, you aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep. Because sleep has to have, as one of its criteria, you have to have this predictable sleep architecture. You have to be going through these sleep cycles that take you through these different stages. And a particular pattern is repetitive, and it's primarily deep sleep in the beginning of the night, and almost exclusively REM sleep by morning, and you have to do that transition.

If you don't do that, then it's not sleep. It can be partially sleep, if you're just getting poor sleep. But I was having these guys do sleep studies. And they were coming back with 99.9% of their sleep study being stage 2 sleep, which is just the transition. It's what we call a transitional sleep phase. So it's not deep sleep or REM. So they weren't really getting any of the benefits of sleep. And of course, that's an oversimplification. They're obviously getting something, or they'd be dead. But we don't know what they're getting.

That's all we know is that healthy sleep does this, and when you go through these cycles, we know these things happen. Like when you're in deep sleep, we know that's when you're the most anabolic, and you're secreting your anabolic hormones like growth hormone, and testosterone, and DHEA is being ramped up, your immune system's being ramped up. We know this happens. And then we know in REM sleep, what's going on in the brain: the physiological changes, forming more durable neural tracks, that neurological memories, shifting things from working memory into long term memory, pruning off useless information, these little buttons that grow on the side of your nerves that are starting to bud new information. You're like, 'I don't need that.' You clean up all that. You get rid of weak products and you get the brain working better.

The whole purpose of going to sleep tonight is to prepare myself for tomorrow, right? Whatever I do today, that's what my brain and body are gonna think it needs to do tomorrow. It's gonna use today as a template to try to make me better tomorrow at doing what I did today. And if I don't get enough sleep, if I don't get to restore, I still have to do tomorrow. And how do I do that? Well, I do it the same way you do anything. I'm stressed out. I use Marinol and a bunch of cortisol and DHEA. And I start robbing all my nutrients for my cells. My blood glucose is going up, I'm getting fuel sources that way, epinephrine and norepinephrine stimulate my brain and my tissues to be able to get energy where there's really no energy there. And then I'm going to bed with these really high stress hormones, which are supposed to be low when I sleep, and then I'm trying to sleep with high stress hormones. Then, I get worse sleep. Then, I need more stress hormones tomorrow. And that's what breaks people.

In fact, when you see somebody who doesn't sleep well for even six months, they look so much older. 'Why does he look old? That doesn't make sense. Is it just because they're tired? Is it tired old?' But if you think about it, you're born into this contract. You're born into this contract; you can't get around. It's just like you're born knowing you're going to die, 100% certain you're going to die. There's also this other contract that certainly is your body ideally worked for about 16 hours, and it needs eight hours to recover. That's the way it works. That's what you're born into. There's small variations there. But obviously, you can't get around that.

If you don't get those 8 hours, you didn't recover from those 16 hours. And so if you think about it logically, obviously, when you're a kid, you need more sleep. So it's not a great example, when you're really young. Kids actually sleep a lot more than eight hours by and large, but you see them actually getting better every day, right? They're growing. They're getting smarter. They're getting more coordinated. You can see that every day. But if you think about, say, like, once you hit 25, and your brain's fully formed, and everything's static. If you could recover 100% every night, and wake up the next morning as good as you were that other morning, you wouldn't age, right? There would be no aging because you would have recovered 100%.

Lisa: It's very important, yep.

Dr Kirk: Everything that you're deficient in, if you're missing 10%, you're going to age that 10%. And if you're missing a little more, you're going to age faster. So when you see people who haven't been sleeping well for a year, they are literally older because they've been recovering less and less every night. So yeah, there's a breakdown in their protein structure. There's decrease in their blood supply, their peripheral vascularisation. Their tissues are aging. There's a buildup of waste products that aren't getting out, and that's toxic. And that's damaging the mitochondria and forming more senescent cells, and all these other things, they're building up. And every marker that we have, even genetic marker, when you look at your children and linked methylation on the genes. Every marker, they look older. And then when you look at them, they look older. That's why.

That's really what aging is. It's really just the absence of being able to recover 100% every night. And as we get older, we just don't repair as fast. And that's, unfortunately, when most people quit sleeping as much. And now that's double whammy there. You're getting twice the aging effects that way. And there's no reason to sleep less when you're old. It's typical, but it's not something you have to do. I've had 84-year-old women who haven't slept more than 4 or 5 hours in 20 years, and I get them to sleep eight hours a night.

Lisa: I've got one over there who's rustling around, walking around behind me. She's 80 years old, nearly. Hey, mum. And she's struggling with sleep in the early morning hours. And therefore, you know her memory and things. So I want to pick your brain on that. Can I just slow you down a little bit because we just covered a ton of ground here.

Dr Kirk: You just asked me about myself, and I just couldn't stop.

Lisa: No, but you were on an absolute roll. So I didn't want to interrupt you because there was so many things, but my brain's just going like, 'There's so many questions!'

Dr Kirk: That was just meant to be an overview.

Lisa: That was an overview. Now can we dive deeper into some of the weeds because now I understand why you've become, classically, the sleep expert because obviously that was the biggest leverage. In other words, this is the biggest leverage point that you see. When we think of the SEALs, we think of the SEALs as being these gods of amazingness that can do everything. But what you're saying is like these guys are pushing their limits: endurance, and in fatigue, and all things like that. And so they're going to be the Canaries in the Gold Mines in a way because they're going to be coming up against the limits of everything.

For you to say, as an ultra marathon, so I've come up against the limits in certain ways, like with sleep deprivation. And I sort of understand some of the things now that you were talking about. So you've ended up finding out that this is probably the biggest leverage point in anybody's life, basically, for their health is their sleep. So people, take a bit of a grip on that one. It's not necessarily the food or nutrition, it's the sleep. Would you agree?

Dr Kirk: When I first started lecturing, I used to say there were four pillars of health: sleep, nutrition, exercise. And then the fourth pillar is audience dependent. It could be mindfulness, stress medication, it could be community, whatever it is that controls your stress hormones, and your emotions, and your mood, and all that stuff. Then after a while, I shift to there's three pillars sitting on the foundation of sleep. Because if you take the sleep away, none of those are going to work. There's nothing you can do. In fact, if you exercise when you're sleep deprived, it's counterproductive because you're not recovering. And we all know that you don't actually get better when you exercise. You damage yourself when you exercise.

Then when you sleep, you recover, and you come back stronger. When you deprive yourself of sleep, you change your entire gut biome, you change your insulin sensitivity. You change everything here. And now your nutritional status doesn't work anymore. And when you don't sleep well, as I said, you increase your stress hormones. So you can do the mindfulness training and all of that stuff, meditate and all that, but you're just going to bring yourself down maybe to where you would have been if you just slept well and didn't do any kind of training.

It's really the foundation for everything. And I say that all the time. It sounds hyperbolic, but I'm 100% convinced it's true. There's nothing that you can do that will, nothing that will break you faster than poor sleep, and poor and insufficient sleep. There's a reason we use it as an interrogation technique.

Lisa: Exactly. Yeah.

Dr Kirk: There's a reason we break people down, intentionally, this way because it depletes all your resources. It interferes with your brain function, your willpower, your problem solving, your speech, your ability to formulate plans, your motivation, your mood. Everything goes almost instantaneously with one night of lack of asleep. Never mind keeping somebody up for three or four days in a row. They're just a mess. They're just in input mode. They just want you to just, 'Tell me whatever I have to do. I'd do it. Then I'll sleep. Anything I can do to get sleep, I'll do it.' You don't have to rip people's fingernails out of stuff. You just deprive them from sleep.

Conversely, there's nothing that will improve the quality of your life and your performance faster than sleeping. Well, if you're an inadequate sleeper, which most people are. They don't even know they are. Everybody has these 30-day challenges and 60-day challenges. I'm like, 'I only need seven days.' Again, one week where sleep is your number one priority. And you do everything right, and you get eight hours of sleep, at least eight and a half hours in bed every night, and you're sleeping approximately eight hours a night. And give me that for a week. And then, if you're not convinced this the most powerful thing, go back to wherever you're going. But nobody's ever gone back.

Lisa: A lot of us, I can hear people saying, 'Yeah, but I go to bed, and I can't sleep. And I wake up at 2 am. And my brain is racing and I've been told to do some meditation. And maybe it's my cortisol.' Let's look now because if we haven't got the message across now that sleep is the number one thing that you should be prioritising about everything that you do, we haven't done very well for the last half an hour.

How do we sleep? What foods do we need to eat before we go to bed or not eat? What supplements can we take? You've got your sleep remedy that we'll get into a little bit. What routine can I do to optimise? What light-dark cycles? All of these things that can be leveraged points for us in optimising our sleep. And how do we test that we're actually in that deep-sleep phase? What are one of the best tools that you've found to work that out? So that was a mouthful, but yeah.

Dr Kirk: So the first thing we need to do is get away from that phonetic question right there, which is what everybody's going through in their heads up like, 'What about this? What about that?' And so my job is to make this really simple. Because simple things we can do, and the more nuanced your plan is around sleep, the more likely it is to fail. And we're doing big, macro movements here. So the very first thing is, what you said, I think we've already covered. The very first thing is to convince yourself that sleep is the most important thing. And to make it your priority for at least one week to get everything going.

Now, when I say your priority, I mean the true meaning of that word. There's only one thing there's nothing else, that's the one, including raising your kids, and your dog, and your exercise routine, and everything else. The most important thing is to sleep. The most important thing for winning. If you aren't quite convinced yet go to PubMed, or go to Google Scholar, or something like this, then put in sleep and anything else you care about: being a parent, mood, dating, sex drive, athleticism, strength, endurance, concentration, memory, I don't care. Whatever it is you care about—strength and this, strength and business, strength and I don't care. Anything you want.

Read to your heart's content. It will convince you that the one good thing about sleep, in the sleep sciences, it's not actually controversial. There's no one out there saying, 'Oh, you don't really need to sleep.' Everybody agrees. There's nuances and people are different. Everybody agrees you need about eight hours of sleep a night. And just convince yourself that is the most important thing. Once you're there, that's the most important thing.

After that, recognise, 'Okay. I'm going to make this my number one priority.' Recognise that you're born to sleep. You don't need to learn; you need to unlearn some stuff, right? You're designed to do this. And this should feel good. You should enjoy sleeping. You should usually look forward to going to bed and waking up in the morning, like, 'Man, I feel so much better. I'm ready to go do my day.' This should be as easy as selling sex but it's not. People resist this forever. I have no idea why. It's great. Why don't you like sleep? I've always liked sleep. So then you just think, 'Okay, when did sleep go bad for humankind?' Probably in the last seventy years.

Lisa: Yeah, when we got electric light.

Dr Kirk: That's about it, right? It's only been, really since rural electrification, right? Since they got electricity out to everybody. That's really when it started. When you look back in America just 100 years ago, look at people's journals in the winter, they spent like 14 hours a day in bed. That's a certain thing they do. So if you think about it, and just say, 'I know this is simple. I'm going to let myself fall into it.' And then I'll tell you, there's all the sleep hygiene. You can get on the Internet, and you can find, 'Oh, do this. Drink a hot cup of tea. Drink milk. Do this. Make your room really cold. Make your room really dark. Make your bed really soft. Make your bed really hard. And get a white noise machine. Get rid of all the EMF.' A million people are going to tell you all sorts of different things to do. And I'll cut through all the BS, and then you can pick and choose.

The real answer is all of that stuff works, to some extent. All of that's important to some extent. The way I work with clients is at least 95% of all the successes is from lifestyle. And then all these little gadgets, and your mitigation tools, and supplements, and all this stuff back, that's the other 5. It's 95% behavioural. So you just look back, how did we evolve to sleep? Nobody teaches people how to sleep, right? You're born as a baby; you sleep. So how did we sleep as adults in cultures 100 years ago? Well, when the sun went down, we fell asleep about three hours later, and we woke up around the time the sun came up. It was pretty much that easy.

Okay, so let's reverse engineer that a little bit. I think most people know that blue light is a stimulus for being awake. We don't truly have a sleeping program. If you think of it like software, we don't have any sleeping software. We just have lack of awakening software. So we have things that go on in our brain and body that make us still awake and make us interact with our environment. And then when you take those things away, we're in what we call sleep.

The blue light, actually, has nothing to do with the vision. There's nerve cells in the back of your eyes. It senses blue light. That's all they do. And then they fire pathways back to the circadian pathway membrane, essentially. And then the pineal gland secretes melatonin. The melatonin is a hormone, the starter pistol. It initiates all these cascades. And then one of the cascades that it initiates is the production of this peptide called GABA, capital G-A-B-A, gamma-Aminobutyric acid. And what that does is it slows down the neocortex.

When you think of the human brain, the picture of the human brain, we all have that big, wrinkly, massive crescent shape. That's what we call the neocortex. And that is how we interact with the world, right? All of our senses get processed in that, and then all of our movement is processed from that, right? So when we're asleep, all that's really different with our sleep, about in a general sense, right? There's nuances in every neuron and every molecule. And then, in the neural sense, there's a barrier between us and our environment is how it's phrased. What it means is we aren't paying attention to our environment anymore. Our eyes obviously still work, right? You can turn the light and you can wake somebody up. Our ears still work, you can make your noise and wake somebody up. Our sense of touch still works. You can shake somebody. They can roll into something sharp, and their pain receptors will wake them up. Heat will wake them up. Cold will wake them. So we still work. Everything still works. We start processing it. We're not paying attention to it.

What helps us do that is GABA. So GABA involves neurons. A neuron has what's called a resting potential. So there's like an electrical current in here. And when you put in enough electrical current, it goes like this. And that neuron fires. And then, does whatever it does and forms pathways. Well, GABA lowers that. Now, it takes more energy to make that thing fire. And you can overcome this by just putting a lot of energy into the cells. So if you've ever been exhausted, woken up exhausted, didn't get enough sleep for whatever reason. Like, 'I'm going to go to work. I'm gonna come home. I'm going straight to bed. I'm gonna sleep 12 hours a day.' And then your friends talk you into going out or you get a cup of a drink. You stay up 'til midnight, 'I feel fine.' And then you suffer again the next day, right? Because you just overcame that.

You can actually read about this because this still exists, believe it or not, they're still I think 35 or 45 pretty large communities around the globe that have never experienced electricity. And they just lived like hunters and gatherers. They go out. And the men go out and hunt. And the women pick, and nurture their kids, and weave. And just when you think of your caveman doing, they still live like that today. And we study these people. And we did actigraphy. So it's not true sleep, say. It's just movement to know when they're likely to be asleep. And what we find is, the sun goes down. Again, the blue light goes out of their eyes. It fires, the brain starts secreting melatonin that leads to a cascade of 365 billion other chemical changes in the brain, right? But that initiation has to happen. Once that initiation is going, one of the things it does is secrete GABA, increase GABA production in lots of regions of the brain that starts slowing the brain down.

The sun goes down. They don't have electricity, right? The best they have is a fire. So what else happens? Their body temperature goes down. So when the sun goes down and it is dark, we can't see well at night, we can't see very far. So there's way less stimulus, right? They don't have flashing lights. They don't have loud music. So there's not much to stimulate them. So they sit around a fire. Maybe if they're lucky, if not, they just stare around the dark, and they have some quiet, calm conversations, and then they drift off to sleep.

That's all sleep hygiene is. That's it. Those three things: decrease the blue light, decrease the stimulation to your brain, and drop your body temperature. You need a cool place to sleep. One of the things that you can do to speed these things up is to concentrate the right nutrients in your brain. If you are going to take melatonin and just take a very, very, very, very small amount. You just want to initiate. You don't want to put so much melatonin in your brain that your brain doesn't need to make melatonin because then you start running insensitivity to melatonin, and now when you take it away, you don't have, you're essentially melatonin deficient because you've downregulated the receptors, and your brain is not sensitive to melatonin anymore.

Lisa: Can I just stop in the first, one second. Dr John Lieurance is his name and he was on the Ben Greenfield podcast, and he's written a book about melatonin. And he argued that melatonin, interesting work, doesn't downregulate when you take melatonin, and doesn't cause that downregulation. All the other hormones do. If we take testosterone, we're going to downregulate our own testosterone, if we take right whatever. He said that they didn't. And he was advocating in his book for actually, super-physiological doses of melatonin. Certainly when you're doing things like jetlag, or whatever you're trying to reset, but also for a raft of other ailments to help with many diseases. Have you heard of his work or?

Dr Kirk: I'm familiar with him and his work.

Lisa: Yeah. What's your take on that? Because I was like, 'I don't know.'

Dr Kirk: So, I disagree, obviously.

Lisa: Yeah. That's what I want to know.

Dr Kirk: But specifically, so what he's talking about, 90% of his work is about the antioxidant.

Lisa: Yes. Is it an antioxidant? Yep.

Dr Kirk: The studies that he's quoting are saying that melatonin doesn't downregulate. We don't know for sure. It's like, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The only way we would know is if we could actually drop a catheter into somebody's brain and sample their fluid in their brain 24 hours a day and study this over months. And so we can't say for sure. We can do animal models. Again, it's hard to quantify because from the time the sun goes down, which is about three hours before you'll fall asleep, to the entire time you slept, until the sun comes up, you're looking at somewhere between 11 and 12 hours. That entire time your brain will only produce five to six micrograms of melatonin.

Lisa: Tiny amount.

Dr Kirk: So how do we study, right? It's really hard to study, and you think of it in a mouse model, how much smaller the quantities are we're looking at that point. And the concentration of melatonin in each region of the brain is not the same, it depends on some cells in the brain can actually be stimulated by melatonin. It's somewhere. It's different. And same with GABA. GABA doesn't go to every region of the brain because it can stimulate regions of the brain. But what we do know, so first, I always go with, we don't know anything. We have research that makes us believe certain things are likely to be true based on the best science we have right now. So we don't know anything. And I believe that to be true about everything in science. Just wait a week, it might change. But what we do know is that every other hormone does this.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Kirk: But if it doesn't do this, it's the only hormone in the body that doesn't. Pretty unlikely. But what we do know with 100% certainty is that it does downregulate melatonin receptors.

Lisa: Right.

Dr Kirk: It can take away melatonin receptors. If I normally have 10 melatonin receptors, and I go down to just having one, now even if I'm sprayed with melatonin, I only have one. And I have to have this supersaturation for this one receptor to do all this work. And if I go down to normal physiologic levels of melatonin and this one receptor, there's just getting an occasional melatonin coming by, I'm going to be, it's no different. It doesn't matter whether I'm not producing enough, or I don't have enough receptors, it's the same end result. You have to have melatonin binders stuffing pulled into the cell to have it function.

Lisa: So can I ask one question there like, so for elderly, who, from what I understand, in my basic research on melatonin, is that their melatonin production goes down with age, and, therefore, they could benefit from melatonin supplementation. Is that a thing or?

Dr Kirk: Yeah, I agree. And so what happens is that the pineal gland calcifies just like our arteries. And every vessel, everything in our body calcifies, right. That's sort of aging.

Lisa: One of the majors.

Dr Kirk: And so it calcifies, and you do almost certainly secrete less melatonin, right? And again, the only way we would know is to drop a catheter into somebody's brain. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't take melatonin at all. I'm just saying you shouldn't take super physiologic. So his example of when you're speaking about the melatonin work earlier, right? His example is, well, this is a great antioxidant. Now, if I do these super physiologic amounts, there's all these benefits to it. Well, if I give you 10 times the amount of testosterone that your body ordinarily has, you're gonna feel fantastic. If I give you something that secretes a bunch of epinephrine and norepinephrine, like cocaine. And you have this huge rush of norepinephrine; you feel fantastic. And you're super productive, and your brain's really sharp. Does that make that a good idea? I don't think so. I don't deal with anything super physiologic.

Again, I'm the behaviourist, and 95% of all your health is going to come from re-approximating the way you revolt. This body takes hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to this planet. And now we're just like, 'No, we're smarter. Like I'm a 35-year-old biohacker. I read a bunch of books. I know I can do it better than–" We know nothing about the body.

Lisa: Can we all mean for people–we also know that people tend to die. If we wanted to extend our healthspan and their lifespan, but healthspan mainly, can we, with hormone replacement therapy, there's a raging argument: should you be on hormone replacement therapy, should you not? If you're wanting to optimise. Now, there's downsides. And you need to understand your genetics, and you need to understand all of those aspects.

There is benefits for us to taking testosterone or DHEA or all these things in the right physiological doses of, say, a 30-year-old, like, I'm 50 or 52, I want to be at the level that I was, say at 30–35. I understand my genetics, I know where my risk factors are. I can keep an eye on all of that sort of stuff. Can I all meet that so that I live and function longer? Because I think the core question here is how do we optimise? Yes, we've developed like cavemen but then they die at 70–80, as well. Can we extend that with the knowledge that we currently have?

Dr Kirk: Well, so I don't ever promise anybody that I can make them live longer. I say, 'You might live longer from this.' If you think about it, think about it this way: at first, we talk about what sleep does, right? And if we could catch up every night, we wouldn't age. So what are we doing when we're doing things like hormone-replacement therapy? We're doing metabolomics. And we're doing all sorts of supplementation around that, or we're doing artificial things like hyperbaric, and near-far IR sauna, and ice baths, and doing all these steps to stimulate the production of the thing.

Of course, now we have antibiotics, and we have all sorts of treatments to keep people from dying as young from certain diseases. So certainly, we should be able to either, probably add years to your life. But if not, definitely we can add life to your years, right? If you're going to die at 80 either way, one version of this, you could die hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, another one you're dying in a little chair in a nursing home. So I don't know.

The question is, even with the longevity work that people are doing, really smart guys like Sinclair and all these guys are doing all these things, and they're doing all these things with clearing senescent cells, we're doing all these things with peptides. And now I give my patients peptides for certain things. I don't know nearly as much about the longevity stuff as I'd like to. And we and we're reversing aging genetically, right? We're going in there and saying, 'Actually, over the course of a year, with a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of tries, a lot of modalities, really focusing on your lifestyle and doing everything. Ideally, we can actually, probably, reverse your genetic age a little bit.' Are we actually reversing age? I don't know, we made your telomeres longer. The increased the methylation on your genes, and those are markers for age, does that reverse it? We don't really know, right?

Lisa: We haven't been around long enough to work it out.

Dr Kirk: Right. It's like with omega-3s. If your omega-3s are this, then we know that certain things go this way. Well, but if we supplement your omega-3s, is that the same as you having that nutritionally. Or vitamin B3? Is that the same? We don't know. We're thinking that it probably is. And we're thinking if we're reversing the markers we know for genetic aging that's making you genetically younger. But maybe there's some totally different information in there on aging that we don't know anything about yet. That's possible, too.

I think from what I know about you, you probably agree with me. I think epigenetics is more important than genetics, anyway. You have certain genetics and you change half a dozen things about your day, and your epigenetics are totally different. If you short yourself 2 hours of sleep, you change 735 different epigenetic markers from just 2 hours. All your pro-inflammatory ones are the ones turning on, and all of your anabolic ones are the ones turning off. And again–

Lisa: That's still the biggest leverage point, isn't it?

Dr Kirk: It's still a crazy complex to think that you can decipher what 735 changes in epigenetics mean. We have some ideas of what certain things, how does all that work in synchronicity, but even though we're the smartest animal on this planet, we still have a very feeble mind.

Lisa: We're still dumb.

Dr Kirk: When it comes to understanding the complexity of our bodies, we can't understand the complexity of the planet, much less our bodies. And life is just this amazingly complex thing. We don't have systems in our body. We divide the body up in systems as a way to learn it so that we can systematically learn and we can test about the learning, but the body doesn't work in systems.

Lisa: I have such an issue with it, too. It's nothing like the way that the medical model breaks us all down.

Dr Kirk: The reductionist model doesn't work for life. And if you think about it, most of biology is purely descriptive. All of it is, we've come up with better and better ways to test things and look at things, and then we can describe what's going on. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time. If we do, it's really clumsy. And it's causing 500 other changes because we wanted to flip this one switch this way. Then what are the downstream effects? We don't know. We'll find out in like 30 years after 100,000 people go through this. It's really clumsy.

I don't know if can I make somebody live longer. I'd never make that claim. But can I make people look, feel, and perform better? Absolutely. I can do it all the time. And me, personally, like you're saying, I just approximate use. Their arguments, there are people out there saying, 'Well, these hormones will cause this or that.' I'm like, 'Okay. If high estrogen levels cause breast cancer, why don't young women get breast cancer? Older women, they're the ones who are getting breast cancer, why?' That thing with men and prostate cancer, giving them testosterone is gonna cause prostate. No, it's not. If that were true, then a 20-year-old would have prostate cancer, and a 60-year-old wouldn't, right? It's a lack of this. And I think breast cancer is a lot like prostate cancer. What we know with prostate cancer now is that if you give somebody testosterone, and they already have prostate cancer, they're sensitive to androgen, then you can expose them.

Lisa: You can ignite it.

Dr Kirk: Or women have found for 5 or 10 more years, maybe. I think breast cancer is the same way. And it just makes sense. And so–

Lisa: And how you clearing out your liver and all that strain, all of those things that those changes that happen, but yeah, totally.

Dr Kirk: And also, every single mechanism that I just talked about that is reversing aging, or slowing aging, or whatever the phrase you want to use. Every single one of those things is improving mitochondrial density, improving mitochondrial function, and doing– There's a thing that's called neovascularisation and angiogenesis. So it's improving blood supply. It's improving lymphatic flow, and it's improving mitochondrial density and mitochondrial functioning. That's pretty much health, right? I'm sorry, what was your question on—

Lisa: The mitochondrial aspect of it. I truly believe that's the core of so many of these diseases. If we can get our mitochondria, and it's just not easy than that. And if we can get those working properly, and we can– that's the downstroke, the most lowest level where we can and again, sleep and things become the leverage point.

Dr Kirk: Right. And if you think about what all of the health crazes are moving towards, all those things are doing that, right? So the ketogenic diet, intermittent fasting, both of these things are increasing mitochondrial density. Both are increasing mitochondrial function. They're both really anti-inflammatory. Anti-inflammatory leads to higher blood supply, better immune function. Immune function is anabolic, right? So that's what's repairing and building things back up. The near-far IR sauna's doing same thing: mitochondrial density, mitochondrial functioning, hyperbaric oxygenation, decreasing cytokines, inflammatory cytokines, increasing the oxygen saturation throughout all the cells, causing new blood vessels to form, carrying more. And it's all mitochondrial density.

What else are we doing? Cold ice baths. I suppose it is trying to increase, they're going to increase your blood flow to save you from freezing, right? And how you're going to do that? It has to grow new blood vessels, and how's it got to do that? It's got to get more energy. Well, how's it going to do that? It's got to make more mitochondria. All of this stuff. And the other thing that does is it increases things like BDNF, so it's helping to repair and restore our brains and then that's leading to better hormone functions because our brain is the hormone master; it's the orchestra leaders, the maestro. Your pineal gland, and pituitary, that's where everything's coming from.

Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years, and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits Podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot Lisa Tamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us; everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power divider, and future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us.

Can I ask you a little bit, because I know that you have done hyperbaric work in your naval days. And I've got a hyperbaric right behind me, there in the corner. And I'm very big on it. And it was a cornerstone of my mother's rehabilitation after a massive aneurysm and brain injury. What's your take on it in regards to brain injuries in regards to concussions, which is in epidemic levels in our world? And also for things like dementia and Alzheimer's? Without obviously, being your absolute area of expertise. But what is your take on hyperbaric for all of these things?

Dr Kirk: So I think hyperbarics is actually going to turn out to be the most effective tool in the toolbox. I think you have to use all the tools. And I have all the tools at my house. Right? I don't have hyperbarics. So I just actually came back from doing a couple of months of hyperbarics in Tampa, and I have a great recommendation for guests if you want to talk to somebody who really knows hyperbarics, and he's a longtime friend of mine. I was in the Navy with him, who's a Navy master diver, and he's just got his PhD in biomedical engineering, and he has a hyperbarics facility. He did the first research paper on the long haulers for COVID, reversing all the long hauling syndromes. He's done a paper on Lyme disease. He's doing a paper right now on dysarthria from strokes and others, and he and I were investigating brain injuries, TBI.

Lisa: Wow. I definitely want to meet this guy.

Dr Kirk: Yeah, so I was the guinea pig. And then another SEAL friend of mine. Because SEALs my age have the most problems, right? They usually are at this age. But I have my best friend from SEAL training. So he's just my best friend overall. He was in the SEAL teams for 26 years, nearly 26,27,28 combat deployments. So he's been blown up with a grenade, he's been blind in one eye, he's been, in the head, 20 plus surgeries. And that's the norm. That's the norm of how guys come out when they're my age, and they stay the whole time. I don't obviously have nearly the trauma that he does. So I wanted to bring him in, too.

Much like I do with the SEALs I just said, 'We're just going to test everything, and we're just gonna test everything we can think of.' So I did pre- and post-EEGs, I did pre- and post-PET scans for consumption. I did–what's it called–psycho learning batteries of tests, testing to problem solve. I did a bunch of hormone stuff. I did genetic aging before. I did all this stuff. Then I just went and did a standard protocol, which is essentially one hour at depth. So one hour bottom time at 280, at 100% oxygen, five days a week. Take Saturday and Sunday off. I did that for eight weeks.

Lisa: Yep. That's 40-odd or 50-odd sessions, yep.

Dr Kirk: Yeah, so 40 sessions. And it's a big commitment. It's a big time commitment. It's expensive. But I just want to see if we can use it for the SEALs because I still do a lot of work with guys who are getting out of the SEAL teams or are out of the SEAL teams. And they break down when things are– really, really hard life. And they can't put it in the end, they don't have their community, and they don't have their compensatory techniques anymore. They're going to new jobs where they don't know their way around as much in there. And plus, they've been gone most of their career. Now, they're home with their wives and their kids. And it's a new thing. It's hard for them, it's super stressful. And so I do everything I can to help these guys out. And anytime there's a new modality, anybody tells me, not that hyperbarics is new, but the partial results with TBI is that we're 5, 10, 15 years old. That's a new postulate. And so we're doing our best to test that, and we're about to do it again. I'm going to go to–

Lisa: I so wanna hear the results of that, please. Because I think it's the most underrated thing that I've ever come across. And you know, and I've been studying it or a couple of years.

Dr Kirk: Absolutely.

Lisa: I know what it did to my mum. My uom went from being like a baby. No, hardly any brain function to being full driver's license, full life, full everything. She's walking and training at the gym every day. And that thing there in the corner was the catalyst for it. It gave me that stuff to do. And I've got a family member with brain injuries, I can't give him the repeated brain injuries from sport. And can't you see what this is? How powerful this is? But it's a big time commitment. Even when it's sitting in your sister's house. But it's really important that people do this and get access to this.

We just had a Sunday program, which is our current affairs, a big current affairs program on TBIs. It's from rugby players over here, professional rugby players and how many TBIs they get in a career. And they're coming out, ending up with dementia and Alzheimer's and brain injuries and mood changes, tossed around down the toilet, and all these sorts of things. And not once did anybody say hyperbaric. And I'm just like, 'Oh, for God's sake.' But what do we have to do?

Dr Kirk: I don't know why we're so bad at that. And under all of the royal colonies. The Israelis and the Russians–

Lisa: The Israelis are onto it. The Russians are onto it. The Russians, the Germans are onto it

Dr Kirk: The Russians, I think of, I say they have 180-some odd approved uses. Israelis are like 116. We're 14, and then we just added one a few months ago. And half of ours are really the same thing. It's just nuances of the same thing. It's just we don't get to use it very much. And when I was in the SEAL teams, it was super hard for me to get it for wound healing, although it's the most obvious use for it. And I would want to put guys in there after surgery. And it was like pulling teeth every single time. I had to fight them. I had to fight the machine to get guys in there. And it's a huge difference, obviously.

Lisa: Are you aware of the work of Dr Paul Harch? hbot.com is his website. He's done a hell of a lot in the hyperbaric space. Check him out. H-a-r-c-h, Dr Paul Harch, real expert in this area. And just on that point on about the machine, the medical machinery that we have, in our Western world, in New Zealand, it's very similar to the States. What the hell are they doing? Why are we still in this preventive, in this disease-based system? Where we are only, like you were talking about, ranges before and these guys are still in the normal ranges, but they were having symptoms. Thyroid is another classic example of people that have not been picked up.

I've just been through a journey, which my listeners know, with my father who developed sepsis after a massive operation, and I won't go into the details. But I was trying to get intravenous vitamin C, and he was dying. And I couldn't. They had no other options where I've got this. I've got scientist friends, doctors who have given me the clinical evidence to proceed these to the ethics committees and all these things while I'm fighting for his life, and he's dying in front of my eyes. And I'm not allowed to give him intravenous vitamin C, which has been shown in a number of clinical studies to drop the mortality rate by 40%–50%, and I wasn't allowed to do it.

I'm just like, 'What the heck is going wrong with our system?' I wonder, right? But it took me 15 days. And by the way, my dad had multiple organ failure, and I lost the battle for him. The system is just– I'm getting, I'll get off my soapbox in a minute. But why is somebody who's been through the medical, the standard medical, and then gone out and done your own? Where are they going wrong? And is there a paradigm shift coming? Can you see a change coming?

Dr Kirk: Now, I really wish I could say yes to that. But I've become so disheartened after COVID. I don't know the politics there. But the politics here, it's just mind-boggling to me. I'm sitting here going– First of all, hydroxychloroquine has been around for like 100 years. It's been around forever. It's over the counter in 80% of the countries in the world. It's a very safe drug. There's almost no chance it's going to cause anybody harm. So whether anybody believes that it was helpful at the beginning or not, you had teams of doctors who are actually doing the work, the clinician saying, 'This works.' And then you have these researchers and politicians saying, 'There's not enough evidence of that. Use this, and don't use that.'

Lisa: And the vaccine, it's been on trial.

Dr Kirk: There is a doctor out here, she's a doctor and a lawyer. She got thrown in jail for giving somebody hydroxychloroquine.

Lisa: You kidding me?

Dr Kirk: For prescribing somebody hydroxychloroquine, she spent four days in jail. They kicked in her house. They kicked in the door of her house with a SWAT team, with body armor and other weapons and rushed her and arrested this little 100-pound woman and put her in jail, didn't let her call a lawyer or anything.

Lisa: That's just evil. That's unbelievable.

Dr Kirk: There's never been anything in the news. And the news cycle that carry the news cycle to the extent of COVID period, but any really big event that I had any expertise in. So COVID was the first time that the big nation focus was on something I knew about, right? I'm not a virologist, but I know how the immune system works, right? I know what viruses are. I know their life cycle. I know how this works. I know how the medicines work. I have some expertise. And I can read what's out there. And I can learn it really quickly. And I'm just amazed at how dishonest and inaccurate the media was, and it's probably that way for everything. I don't have enough expertise to realise that when everything else is going on. And so I've just become really disheartened.

That woman who got arrested, she was in, she was running something called the Frontline Doctors, and her and a bunch of other doctors went to the Capitol. And they held this press conference, and they told them, 'Here's the evidence. Here's the evidence of the medicine. Here's the safety of the medicine. Here's what we've been finding clinically. We want to urge all doctors to do this.' And the FDA cracked down and told people they couldn't do it. Why isn't a medical doctor could not call a pharmacist and tell them to prescribe hydroxychloroquine to my patients? A pharmacist could tell me, 'No.' A pharmacist said, 'No, that's against the law.'

Lisa: To a doctor. And ivermectin is the other one. Have you—

Dr Kirk: Ivermectin is exactly in the same way.

Lisa: What the hell?

Dr Kirk: And then these doctors have had a website where they've been making videos, they've been posting, with their videos, all of their references, all the clinical— they're only using peer-reviewed studies. They're going through mechanism, historical stuff. They're going through new stuff. And they're posting on there. Amazon just shut their website down.

Lisa: Have you seen Dr Robert Malone? He's the founder of mRNA. And he was on the DarkHorse Podcast with Bret Weinstein. It was a really long interview and really in-depth. But the thing was, this was censored. I watched them take it down. And I watch other people keep putting it back up. And then now they've gone over to a platform called, obviously, which they can't be censored because it's on the crypto saying which is like— But why, when this aside, I know why. But the science is there. The clinical evidence is there. This is a safe— Ivermectin has been on the market for 40 something years? 30 to 40 years. I don't know exactly. But it's off-patent. Nobody can make money out of it. And then if they have a therapeutic, they can't do the vaccine under the emergency law.

Dr Kirk: I've heard that partial, and I think that's very realistic. Because— but the other side of it is that if there's one thing that's been proven in the last year and a half, the two years in America, is that the powers that be can do whatever the hell they want to do. So, they could have approved emergency use, even if they were 10 treatments because they just wanted to. They just do whatever they want to do right now. 'You know, what? that's against the law.' 'No. Tough. We're gonna do it anyway."

Lisa: We want to make some billions out of something, so we're going to put it anyway.

Dr Kirk: I don't know. I'm very disturbed by it. But I would say 10 years ago, I was really excited that there was going to be a paradigm shift. I've been waiting for it to happen. I don't know why it doesn't happen. You know, like I said, I started studying all this stuff around 2009. And going well. And this makes a lot more sense. And, and now— But I'm not saying that Western medicine is all bad. Because if you're talking about somebody who's on death's door, somebody just got run over by a bus, or somebody who's severely sick, yes, Western medicine is great. But to keep people from getting severely sick, and to keep people aging well, and to perform well, that's a total different ballgame. And that's not what the medical professionals are trained to do. And the ones that are trained to do that get marginalised. They aren't the real doctors. They're not the natural. Pass. And a real doctor over here. It's like, 'You're kind of like a doctor, but we're gonna put you in this little box.'

Lisa: A second-class citizen.

Dr Kirk: Yeah, you're a second-class citizen.

Lisa: You're not the real thing.

Dr Kirk: If there's one thing that I've proven to myself over the decade I've been doing this now is that most of my values as being a coach. I'm a doctor, but I pretty much coach people in lifestyle change. 90% of what I do is I get people to change their behaviours.

Lisa: And no one can make money out of that.

Dr Kirk: And then I give hormones. And then I give peptides. And then I give nucleo supplementations. And then we do little gadgets that you want to monitor everything about yourself and learn. You monitor your heart rate variability, your sleep, and all that. And you want to get every piece of data and continuous blood glucose. Do whatever you want. All that stuff. Let's get you sleeping well. Let's get you eating whole foods and no junk. Let's get you exercising to the level that is appropriate for your fitness level currently. Let's get your stress hormones down, and get your mood and thinking all in line with some mindfulness training, or whatever you do with that. And that takes, honestly, it takes nine months.

Lisa: Yep, exactly. That takes time. It takes massive effort. And it takes behavioural change, which people just don't want to do behavioural change because it's much easier to take a pill. It's much easier to take something simple and that's just the way humans are; we want it easy. Give me a pill of those.

Dr Kirk: And this great salesman telling them that they just eat this superfood, or like whatever this, 'Oh, weird bacteria, we found this on K under the Amazon, like this is the key.' Not really. Nobody's ever been able to use it before. And that's the key. Now I see. That makes sense. And people want that magic bullet. And it's hard. It's hard for some people. Unfortunately, there's never really been that hard for me. I'm just not somebody who's had a lot of hunger cravings. I don't really crave bad food, it's easy for me to eat a good diet.

Lisa: And there's a lot of genetic factors and all of these things. When you look at our evolution, it makes sense that we go after fat, and sugar, and salt because that's what we don't have enough of and so–

Dr Kirk: –That's what protects you from famine.

Lisa: But we need to understand how the big food industry then is tapping into those addictive mechanisms in our brain to make us want more. You can't eat one chip. Anybody knows, who's eaten a pack, opened a pack of chips, you can't eat one chip; you're gonna eat the whole packet.

Dr Kirk: You don't call them crisps? I thought you called them crisps over there.

Lisa: No, we call them chips.

Dr Kirk: So I actually have this postulate of where doughnuts and coffee came from in here. So what I was saying earlier, if I don't get enough sleep tonight, so I don't recover, I don't get the right deep sleep, my anabolic hormones don't change around, my insulin sensitivity shifts, my appetite regulation, ghrelin and leptin regulators, my fat metabolism regulators, all of that off because I didn't sleep well, right? So I wake up the next morning, and I have a high-stress hormone because I didn't get enough sleep, and I'm using stress hormones to get through the day.

Another thing that happens when you're asleep is you flush the toxins out of your brain. Yeah, the lymphatic glow, right? And I use that word sparingly. And part of the dual partitioning and regeneration tool source. One of the things that we're doing is we're replenishing ATP, right? So ATP is triphosphate adenosine with three phosphates on it, and it goes down to ADP and AMP and then just an adenosine binds to areas of your brain and tells your brain where to start it. We burn all this out. We need to sleep.

That's what we call sleep pressure. That's the drive that just makes you want to crash. And you know this well from being an athlete and pushing yourself to the extent that you can lay down on cactus and fall asleep. You're just so damn tired, and you got to sleep. And then it only takes a few hours to flush that adenosine out, right? And then if you have enough stress hormones, epinephrine, norepinephrine, all that, you can get up and go again.

Our insulin sensitivity goes down, especially in our fat cells, and then our leptin sensitivity goes down. And so we're convinced we need to actually store more fat. And then we still have adenosine. And the way caffeine works, caffeine blocks the adenosine, right? So your body now believes that it's starving. The only reason that—so we're the only animal on the planet, that sleep deprives ourselves on purpose. Every other mammal, the only time they will ever sleep deprive themselves is if they're being pursued, if they're being preyed upon. Or if they're starving to death. If they're starving to death, they need to go further for food. And it shuts off the prefrontal cortex and makes you take more risks. You'll eat novel foods; you might try some things that might keep you alive that you wouldn't have otherwise try.

You wake up, essentially, with your body convinced that you're starving. One, you deprive yourself of sleep. So every day you wake up without enough sleep, there's some trigger in your brain that's saying, 'Are we starving? Are we being preyed upon? What's the threat? There's a threat on us, right?' And now you have all this appetite regulation and fat metabolism, all these regulators are off, and your body's convinced that you're starving. And what do you need when you're starving? You need glucose, right now. And then you need much of that. Right? And what is a doughnut? It's tri glucose, right? So it's like glucose for body fat.

Lisa: Sugar and fat.

Dr Kirk: And then you drink coffee to displace the adenosine.

Lisa: It makes sense. Why would it?

Dr Kirk: I think that's where coffee neurals come from. It's very theory 101. Do with it what you want. Never been published.

Lisa: But that is brilliant work. It's a brilliant deduction. And it's so true. And then we take more coffee to keep ourselves going. And then we cause these adenosines to come and then we can't go to sleep.

Dr Kirk: This is one of the most beautiful things. So I was actually doing a sleep lecture with three other sleep experts of all different fields. There's some psychiatrists there and some sleep practitioners that do CPAP sleep disease, specialists. And we were all going to do a series of lectures during the day. And we're waiting around for our car to come get us. And we're sitting in the lobby, and the lobby had a Starbucks. And they just happened to have propped up in one of those little poles with a new slider menu, and it was just sitting right next to the bench we're sitting on. And it had all the nutritional information of their drinks.

I'm sitting there looking at it. I go, 'Oh, my gosh, they have a point. I'm getting a— Look at this.' And they're looking at it. I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, that explains a lot.' So when you look at caffeine intake or the effects, the beneficial effects of caffeine intake, or what we call a hormetic curve, right? So more is better until more is worse, right? And when it starts getting worse is about 200 milligrams.

Lisa: Which is what, two cups of coffee?

Dr Kirk: It's not even two full cups of drip coffee, right? So after that, though, you actually get the exact opposite effect. So caffeine actually makes you start feeling more tired.

Lisa: Wow. And wired.

Dr Kirk: And Starbucks has these 800-calorie coffees, a 100% of the calories are from sugar, right? Because they have syrups and whatever in them and cream, and then with 600 milligrams of caffeine. So what happens when you drink 600 milligrams of caffeine, you say, 'I'm feeling better. I'm drinking this over time.' And then I finish my coffee. A couple of hours later, I feel awful. And what do I think I need?

Lisa: Coffee.

Dr Kirk: Coffee. Go back and get another, more.

Lisa: And people go and get it. And then they don't understand how long it takes for the caffeine to be processed out of the body. And then 12 hours later, they're not going to sleep, and they're thinking they haven't equated it to the third cup of coffee that they had today.

Dr Kirk: Yeah, they have no sleep pressure like we're talking about, blocking your adenosine receptors. Plus, it's led to some stimulation of stress hormones and their stress hormones to hide their sleep.

Lisa: And on that point, you know, I was talking about my dad before and I was in the hospital with him for 16 days. We were fighting for his life. And that time, I had maximum two hours sleep a day because I was just there at the hospital, advocating, protecting him, wasn't leaving his side. If I could stand up, I was there. At 16 days, I was diabetic. My blood sugar levels were through the roof. And all of my— so and that led to a whole lot of downstream effects that I'm still unpacking now. And it's now a year later. This is how quickly it can happen. I'm in a time like that, you want to push.

It's the same when you're doing ultra-marathons. I ran ultra-marathons, 25 years doing crazy long distance stuff. When I ran through New Zealand, and I was running 500 kilometres a week, I got fatter. I figured that one out. Because there was over, I don't know how many calories I was burning; it was an excess of 10,000 calories a day or more. And I wasn't getting anywhere near that calories in and yet my body got fed, and my composition changed, my hormones were down, my sugar, all of these things. We think that the more we train, because this is another argument that I have a lot of my athletes that I train, is that more is always better when it comes to exercise. And that's not true.

Dr Kirk: Sometimes, more is just more. And often, if you're sleep-deprived, more is worse for sure. You don't really need to do any exercises. You just stay active until you've recovered, and then you can exercise again. But I know exactly what you're talking about. When we were talking before we started recording, I tampered with endurance marathons and things like this. It just wasn't well-suited for it. But definitely the fattest I've ever been in my life. I just wasn't suited for it. And it was too much stress. It was causing my body to put on everything.

Lisa: And it was causing your body to put on fat.

Dr Kirk: So I was just broken down. I was losing my hair. And the first time in my life that I ever had a belly. I've had plenty of times where I have like a six-pack. Where did this come from? Never had this before. And I was still pretty young, 35 at the time.

And I know for a fact that if you, there's research, it's not all tissues, but some of your tissues, the insulin sensitivity is decreased by 30% just by losing two hours of sleep. One night with two hours of sleep. So you go from sleeping eight hours of sleep to six. If you're pre-diabetic, you're waking up diabetic. If you're normal, you're waking up pre-diabetic. And then if you do that for several nights in a row, you might actually be driving yourself into diabetes within a week or two, and you don't really know.

There's not a lot of people who tracked themselves that much for us to know that certainly. But again, it's super complex because there's all sorts of hormonal regulations, and genetics, and vascular flow, and activities, and diet. But there's a lot of things going into that. But as a general rule, you can say if you lose two hours of sleep, testosterone is 30% lower, growth hormone is 30% lower, inflammation is 30% higher, leptin sensitivity is down 30%, insulin sensitivity is down 30%. This is in one night, you've only lost 25% of your sleep. And you're losing 25% to 30% of the benefit of sleep. No big surprise there. Right?

Lisa: But is a six and a half hours a day, the average scenario? And I can probably get six and a half. I don't know what the steps are. But six and a half to seven hours a day. How many people–

Dr Kirk: Americans just dropped under six the last year. But when I started this in 2009, it was 6.5, 6.45 I think.

Lisa: And we think that's enough. It's not close enough.

Dr Kirk: No. It's like saying, 'Well, I need only need 2800 calories a day. So 35 is close enough. I'll stay lean, right?' No. It doesn't make any sense. So it's best to get as much as you can possibly get. And if six and a half is all you can get, and I understand that some people's life in that way. This isn't to bash the individual. That's a cultural problem. It's not an individual problem.

In some cases it is, but in most cases, it's a cultural problem. They've grown up believing that sleep is for the weak, and lazy people sleep more, and really productive people get up early, get both ends, and get all the work done. And they're the high achievers, and that's who you want to be, and they're going to make the money. They're the sexy ones. They're going to marry the good spouse, and they're going to have the beautiful kids, and because they're getting after it, and you're lazy, just sleeping eight hours a day. People buy into that, especially.

I chose probably the worst two professions in the world. 'That's a luxury man. That's for weak people. And you get all the sleep you need when you're dead.' Right? Now it's a thing in medical school saying things, you're in the hospital like, 'Sleep. Yeah, you're not getting here to sleep. There's people's lives in the line here, go make some bad decisions.'

It's a crazy, crazy world. And I tell you, people pay a lot of money to work with me. And I'm not saying that to be braggadocious. I'm saying for the point being, it's hard to get to work with me, right? There's a waiting list. I test. I seriously screen people because I don't want to work with somebody who's gonna be a pain in my ass. And I'm not working with anybody who's not super motivated. And you have to pay a lot of money because I don't work with very many people. I spend a lot of time with each person. Even though I'm known for sleep, the hardest thing for me to coach people to do is to sleep. And I could tell them, 'We'll do anything.' They're willing to do anything. And when I say, 'Sleep eight hours a night,' that's like, 'Whoa, whoa, hold up.' I'm like, 'I want you to do yoga two hours a day. Exercise two hours a day. Eat nothing but kale.' They go like, 'Okay.' 'I want you to sleep eight hours a day.' Like, 'Whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't do that.'

Lisa: And you're known for the sleep stuff.

Dr Kirk: That's the most important part. But it's hard. There's a lot of social conditioning around that. Most people know they don't eat well. Most people know they don't exercise enough. Most people know that they're too stressed. It's hard to convince people they aren't sleeping well.

Lisa: And what about kids? Kids are going to school early. What sort of damage are we doing to our kids by making them— and adolescents are even worse because you never listen to your body clock changes. Can you just speak briefly to that? And then we will wrap up because I am taking up a lot of your time.

Dr Kirk: I actually did a five-hour lecture, eight hours a day for five days in a row in Germany. I was lecturing the student, the faculty, the counsellors, the coaches, and the teachers of the school systems for the American kids that were in, overseas, military kids that are, you know. And so I was lecturing all of this. And that's when I really dove into the research. I didn't know a lot of this before, and this was probably six or seven years ago.

What we're doing to our kids is tragic. It's way worse than what we're doing to ourselves as adults. It's way worse. The really concerning thing is that, obviously a kid's brain isn't fully developed, right? That's primarily what those 18 years are about. It's not nearly as much about the physical as it is about the mental. And one of the last things to form is the prefrontal cortex. And that's the part right from my temples forward over my eyes like that little way.

That is the part that makes us the smartest animal on the planet. That is called, what Robert Sapolsky calls the simulator. It allows us to simulate things. We don't actually have to do them to figure out if they're a good idea, right? I don't need to jump off my roof to know if it's a good idea or not. I've never jumped off the roof of my house before. And I can guarantee you it's a bad idea. It's like 30 feet to the ground. I'm gonna get hurt. There's no way I'm going to do it. I don't have to do it to know that's a bad idea. I don't have to flip my boss off to know that I'm going to get fired if I flip my boss off, right? All of these behavioural gates, that's all prefrontal cortex. Also all of our willpower is prefrontal cortex. So your ability to have a plan and stick on your plan relies on you going, 'I want the future. I want what my plan will get me in the future more than I want the immediate gratification right now.' That's all willpower, that's 100% prefrontal cortex.

As soon as your prefrontal cortex goes away, you start negotiating that other way. 'It's not that big of a deal. It's only one piece of cake, and I can still lose that 15 pounds for my wedding.' Whatever people's goals are, right? And our problem-solving ability, our verbal fluency, our ability to recognise other people's emotions when we're talking to them, our ability to actually communicate and listen and understand what they're saying, our ability to regulate our own emotions and our own speech and communicate effectively, all of that is prefrontal cortex. This is the social part of our brain. Well, guess when that part's forming? Adolescence. And this happens in adolescence. What else happens in adolescence? There's a phase shift in the circadian rhythm, and the kids need to stay up later and wake up later. That's just the way their circadian rhythm is shifted.

Lisa: They're not being lazy. They just...

Dr Kirk: And instead, we're waking them up earlier as they get older. And these kids are having to get to school at 7:15 in the morning, which means they're getting up at 6:15. They're probably not falling asleep until 1 a.m. And it's worse because they don't just need eight hours of sleep. They need about 10 hours of sleep. So they're getting half as much sleep as they need. And then we're shoving them off to school. And we're saying, 'Why are you misbehaving in school? Why aren't you paying attention?' Will it be the same thing?

Lisa: You are going to get ADHD.

Dr Kirk: Yeah, you are going to have ADHD. It would be the same as if you and I had to get up at 2:30 in the morning and go be at work at 3:30 in the morning. And we're expected to learn. We're expected to be able to communicate effectively, and behave well, and pay attention, and be energetic, but we couldn't do it. No, kids can't do it either. And we're interfering with the development of their brain.

The prefrontal cortex isn't fully formed until you're at the earliest, maybe 20. For women, women's brains formed a little faster. But it's up to 25 years old. And a lot of men are right at that mark, 23 to 25. And about a quarter of the women are still 23 to 25. So the most formidable years are high school, and college, and early employment. And what do people do on early employment? They go hang out with their friends. They go to the bar. They drink. They have fun. They watch movies. They go to bed. They get up early. They go to work. They do the same thing every day. So the most sleep-deprived years are the most horrible years of the brain.

Lisa: And then we wonder why depression, and suicides, and accidents, and all of these things happen to our youth? And disproportionately is that part of it, at least because of–

Dr Kirk: There's this fascinating new field in medicine called chronobiology. And what they've discovered is that probably, we don't know for sure, but it's probably every psychiatric disease, and probably every psychological, severe flare-up or whatever you want to call that. So it's a cycle that's always preceded by sleep deprivation. Everybody who's depressed didn't sleep well before they became depressed. And now that depression's, about half of them, it's making them sleep a lot more. But half of them is preventing them from being able to sleep. So now they feel sleepy all day. Any time anybody has a schizophrenic break, there's a period right there. People with bipolar, before they go into their frenetic phase, they have a period of sleep deprivation. And then after their manic phase, they go into their depressive phase. And that can actually lead again, half of them are going to sleep less and half of them are going to sleep more. But there's always sleep regulation around it.

They're the first book I read on chronobiology at some Ivy League hospitals, I think it was Harvard, or one those Harvard, Yale, Cornell, something like that. And in their attached hospital, they took their psychiatric inpatients, and all they did is get them out in the morning and get them to walk around the yard and do this. And it was amazing. I think it was at least 50%, it might have been 75% of their patients completely came off their medications. These are people who are inpatient. They've been on hardcore anti-psychotic medication for years and maybe decades. And they get them, not just decreased, 100% off of medications by getting their circadian rhythm and chronobiology as well.

It's deeper than I know. I haven't studied it really deep. We have the ultradian rhythms as well as the circadian rhythms. And so, how all that aligns, I can't say what the neurophysiology going on to break people out of that. But again, does it really matter? It's lifestyle.

Lisa: It's easy if you want to try it.

Dr Kirk: It's the same damn thing. Actually, if they lived as hunter-gatherers today, they would get up when the sun came on. And they'd have to go out and do things, right? And they'd be in the sunlight, and then it would get dark, and they would get cold, and they would fall asleep. So again, lifestyle handles 95% of this.

Lisa: Yep. And we just, our ancient DNA. We just cannot escape our ancient DNA. And when we try to when we put people on drugs, and we do all these interventions, why don't we try this stuff first? Why don't we try this basic stuff? When you look at hospitals with 24-hour lights and their beeping, and they're waking people up all through the night and all of these things in our sickest populations, just mind-blowing to me.

Dr Kirk: This is the whole philosophy of how pharmaceuticals come about that's wrong. So take sleep jokes for instance. We talked earlier about Stilnox, right? So what that does, it acts like GABA. Okay, so I told you that GABA is slowing down the brain. So when I get stressed out, when I started living in artificial light, and air conditioning and heating, and I've taken myself completely off the planet. I make it hot when it's cold, cold when it's hot, dark when it's light, light when it's dark. I do whatever the hell they want to do. Eat stuff that's not even related to food. Like, 'I can do whatever I want. I can totally take myself off of this planet.' Like mankind's got it all figured out. Then, of course, I now have sleep problems. Well, and then maybe I'm overstimulating myself. I'm watching movies, or playing video games, or going out to a nightclub or whatever it is, I'm over stimulating my brain. And I can't get to sleep at night, or I'm in bed and I'm going through a divorce or bankruptcy or whatever. My brain is just racing, and I can't slow down my brain.

GABA's job is to slow down my brain. Well, my GABA is not doing it. So what does the pharmaceutical industry do, right? So they have a receptor that binds GABA, I have GABA floating around my blood, grabs it, pulls it in the cell, and it does what GABA does in that cell. So we'll say that's a one. One GABA does an action of 1, on a scale from 1 to 10, 1. So now they come out with benzodiazepines, also act like GABA analogs. And what did they do? They bind the GABA. They bind that GABA receptor, it gets pulled in. Instead of doing 1 out of 10, it does 100 out of 10.

Lisa: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Dr Kirk: And then they came out with the Z-drugs and like, 'Hey, we got this even better.' Now this Z-drug binds in here, this still not binds in there, pulls it in there, on a scale of 1to 10, it does 1000. Now, I have this super physiologic effect because in the pharmaceutical world, well, all we got to do is flip this switch. And if we flip this switch harder, people are going to sleep faster, and we're going to win, and we're going to sell our medication. That's the way they think about it.

Instead of going, 'Well, what if we relieve all the stress hormones that are keeping the GABA from working? Then we just use this GABA? And the one does its job?' Because we were talking about the downregulated receptor, right? Well, if the Z-drug is 1000 times more powerful than GABA, how many receptors are you gonna have at the end of six months of using that? Over 100,000, right? It's pretty simple math.

Lisa: Can you have half of it? Can you up-regulate those receptors again? When you bug it for a long time.

Dr Kirk: It takes a while. So what I did with the SEALs, now obviously, I couldn't just take away their sleep medicine and say, 'Suck it up, buttercup.' Right? I had to give them something. And so we came up with this concoction of these things to give them various reasons. And all the guys helped me figure out what works the best, but it kept them on their sleep drug. So what I did is I had the pharmacy make their Stilnox into a serum. So 10 drops was a full dose. So they did 10 drops for a week. And then they do nine drops for a week. And then eight drops a week, all the while undertaking the sleep supplement as well. And they're getting good sleep every night. They've cut down alcohol. And they've done their sleep hygiene. And they're doing everything to optimise their sleep. And over the course of about six to eight weeks, they're completely off of it. And then all the receptor density's obviously back, and then they can just sleep fine and after that.

Lisa: Does it work for everything? Getting someone off antidepressants. And you were trying to cut like tablets down this, but this much is really hard because you don't, you can't—

Dr Kirk: It is really hard. And it's really time-consuming. And sometimes you have to bounce back because the side effects become too much. And it's really hard to titrate off, especially antidepressants. Because especially, most antidepressants now aren't just working on one system. So they aren't working on say, like, just serotonin. They're doing a lot of things. We're working on multiple neurotransmitters. So you're down-regulating receptors for lots of things. And the ratio of neurotransmitters matters just as much as the presence of them. And not everybody's the same and so not everybody's receptors are coming back at the same speed. And not everybody's just sensitive to the same drugs. So it's hard to know how to get off of things.

I've actually had two patients over my career who just failed to come off of antidepressants. They just couldn't. We tried for the better part of a year. And it was too traumatic for them. They would have such bad side effects from getting off the medications, and they're like, 'I'm just gonna stay on it.' And I did my best to coach 'em out of it. But at the end of the day, I'm there as an advocate and a coach. So I don't demand anything of my clients other than, basically, I'm dogmatic about but everything else is, we're going to work with what you want to do. And we're going to build resilience and performance in whatever areas you want to. And you're going to eat, like, if you want to be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian. You may want to be a carnivore, you be a carnivore.

I don't care what you want to do, we're just going to figure out how to get the right ratios for you of everything and get the best performance out of you. And maybe if your genetics are such that you would do better without meat, but you really love meat, you're like, you're willing to take a little bit of less performance, and I'd rather have meat than be 5% better, right? It's up to you. I'm just really here as a guide.

Lisa: But you have developed a sleep remedy, which I've heard you say on another podcast is not a miracle. It doesn't contain some of the things that won't actually help us without damaging us. Can you just talk a little bit about that?

Dr Kirk: It's not a physiologic trick, right. It's not something like there's these drugs. There's not–

Lisa: It's not magic–

Dr Kirk: It's not overdosing you on melatonin so that we're just washing out all of your weight, promoting neurotransmitters, and you're just falling asleep anyway. So, we're talking about the hunter-gatherers, the caveman, where ancestors lived. I said, it takes about three to three and a half hours after the sun goes down before people feel like falling asleep. Well, who in America spends three hours or New Zealand spends three hours getting ready for bed? One in one in a million maybe? Right? So all I tried to do with my product is say, what would ordinarily concentrate over those three hours? What would happen? Well, as we said, the primary point would be we have [inaudible]. It's not just like a fire once and it goes. It's like this, this is flowing around the blank brain and continually made changes overnight.

Then the other thing is GABA. As I said, that slows the brain down. And that's the other part. The body temperature, not something I supplement with, do anything with. But the stress hormones, we need those to come down. Those should be coming down due to lifestyle, but maybe they're a little high. So phosphatidylserine is the only not straightforward thing that from your ultra-marathons and so forth, I'm sure you know, that decreases cortisol levels by taking phosphatidylserine. And so if you look at the pathway for producing melatonin, it's amino acid tryptophan that becomes 5-hydroxy-tryptophan. Then with the help of magnesium and vitamin B3, that becomes serotonin. Serotonin becomes melatonin.

Lisa: Yep. And then you got your pathway without–

Dr Kirk: That's all that's in my supplement. There's no serotonin. Now, there's tryptophan-5-hydroxy to present magnesium, vitamin B3, and a little bit of melatonin. There's some GABA in there. And then there's some phosphatidylserine, certainly, to bring your cortisol down. It's just ratios that I worked out with the SEALs over. They were great patients to have because they're super motivated, and really diligent and taking notes, they come and report to me every day. And we just figured out the ratios like, 'Okay, seems like we need a little more of this and a little less of that.' I had no intention to making a product out of it. I was just helping them get off in their sleep drugs, and then they just harangued me into making a product out of it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Dr Kirk: Because this is a pain in their ass. They're having to go to three different stores. This was before Amazon, you can just order everything, they're having to go to three different health food stores. And this came in a 30-day supply. And that came in 90 days. And that was natural. And that was a powder. And this is a liquid. They couldn't travel with it. And so they're like, 'Just make it something simple.' That's why I made the stick pouches. One, because I want to make a tea because I want to create some sort of bedtime routine and ritual to help you perform something like that, and not just sit in bed and pop some pills. So that's why I made it. That's one of the reasons. And then the other thing is there's little stick pouches. These things last forever like it–

Lisa: You can take it–

Dr Kirk: And they can just you need five days of sleep, you just throw five of those in your pocket and you're done. Right? You don't need to pack a bunch of different pills and all that. So it really just made it out for those guys. And then it surprisingly turned into a little side business that I never really intended. But yeah.

Lisa: This is fantastic though because— and we'll put the links in the show notes, people do to get this and I— Because I have all those things and I have to take all the pills currently. And I don't know the ratios, whether I'm getting the ratios right and I'm doing it right. And I need extra support because I sort of love it full-bore like you probably do. So we can do with some extra help. So we will put the links in the show notes to the Sleep Remedy.

There's nothing physiological, over-physiological doses, there's nothing artificial in there that's going to cause you trouble. And that's the main thing when people, because they will just grab Ambien, or Valium, or those types of things. Because they're desperate and I get that. But we can help ourselves with all the sleep routine things that we've mentioned that. A dark, cold, having a hot shower or cold shower, something changing the temperature, slowing your brain down, chamomile tea, all these things that we can do that are simple behavioural things. But adding that into the mix, I think, is a really key thing.

Dr Parsley, I've taken up so much of your bloody time. But I could honestly, we'd love to have you back at some stage because there was just more that I wanted to–

Dr Kirk: Yeah. There's a lot we didn't really get to talk about. I'm always happy to do it. I don't know how long it took to schedule this one. But I think I can get them done in a couple of weeks, usually. I'm only doing maybe two a week right now. It used to be five a week, somebody always wanted me to do it, but I don't get as many requests now. I'm not as popular. So I can do about two a week so...

Lisa: I think, and I've worked with– I've done this podcast for nearly six years. I've talked to experts in so many, many, many fields. And your wide-ranging experience, both in the SEALs and as a doctor is pretty extensive. So I think we're getting a lot more. And I think I just really enjoyed this conversation because it helps clarify a lot of things for me. And it's really put, I think the number one thing that I've also come to the conclusion of, in a roundabout way, that sleep is our biggest leverage point, not exercise, not food, not anything else but sleep. And it is not an easy one for us to just click and do. But we can help ourselves. So I think that the work you're doing is absolutely marvellous. And I would love to get your friend on who's in the hyperbaric because this is definitely one of my things that I'm good on promoting as well, big on it.

Any final things that you would like to share with the audience to just– any last bits of wisdom from Dr Parsley?

Dr Kirk: With you, specifically, with sleep since that's what we talked the most about. And that's what people mostly want to hear me talk about. But, specifically, with sleep. But again, I just like to reiterate that it is a really simple process. And the thing that gets in the way the most is all of these fears and concerns about doing everything perfectly when you're designed to do it. All you need to do is convince yourself it's really important. And then just start with a bedtime ritual, right? The sleep hygiene stuff, you can look up. But again, all you're doing with it, to decreasing the blue light in your eyes. You can get glasses. You can do it by changing your light bulbs. You can do that by getting rid of the light, bring candles. You can put computers, programs that get rid of blue light. There's all sorts of things you can do. Get rid of the blue light. Decrease the stimulation. Lower your body temperature. That's sleep hygiene, there's a million ways to do that.

Then of course, part of lowering stress is just slowing down your thinking. You can't work on your computer until 9:59 and get in bed in 10 and think you're gonna be asleep. It doesn't work that way. You have to slow everything down just like you do with a little kid. The other metaphor is like, if you've ever been a kid, you'll remember this 45-minute protracted period of getting a kid ready for sleep. We still need that as adults; we just don't think we need that. And it doesn't need to be as elaborate but it's the same thing. What were you doing with a kid?

Lisa: Put them in the bathtub.

Dr Kirk: Right? You're slowing him down. You don't let your kid bang trucks together and then throw him in a bed, turn off the light and walk out and think it's gonna work, right? Not gonna work. So stop roughhousing, slow down the activity, maybe watch a television show, or do a puzzle, or whatever it is. And then after you do that, you put them in the bath. Why are you putting them in the bath? You're relaxing them, and you're lowering their body temperature, right? You don't give them a 98° bath. You might give them an 85° bath, right? Or I don't know Celsius. Now, so you're not giving a body temperature that is something below, so you're lowering the body temperature.

Then what do you do? You get them out of the bath, and you put them in really comfy jammies and put powder all over them. Decreases sensation, right? Now they're not feeling labels, not feeling zippers, not feeling anything touching them. So now they're calm, and that's one less sensation. Now you put them in a room, you make sure they're safe, they're in a soft bed. There's nothing sharp poking them. They feel comfortable. They're feeling comfortable next to you. You start reading them a story. What's the best kind of story? The story they already know: something rhythmic, something predictable, like Dr Seuss. It has the cadence. They know everything that's coming. And then they just sit there, and they're relaxing, you're slowing down their brain, their body temperature's lower. There's no sensation. The lights are low. You're not putting on loud music. They're not moving around a bunch. And now they start feeling like they're going to sleep, and you convince them they're gonna be safe, and you walk out. It's the same. We need the same.

Lisa: We need to turn the lights off.

Dr Kirk: You don't have to put on onesies but yeah, but everything else, it's all the same. We need all the same stuff.

Lisa: Yeah, and I think, one of the things that, trying to get your kids asleep and obviously, psychologically safe, but having them in a dark room without a nightlight, if possible. I don't know if you know Professor Andrew Huberman. He was talking about the other day, the light getting to the eyes of the child, the night lights and things that we have on for kids are actually causing myopia, short-sightedness in children as well. That's another thing besides the whole sleep rhythm thing. But that was an interesting one as well.

Dr Kirk: But one final thought: if anyone in your audience is specifically having problems with stress, they know they're having problems with stress or they suspect they're having problems with stress, I'm sure you'll post it in your show notes. But my website, docparsley.com. There's a downloadable PDF in there. I think it's a docparsley.com/stress/ And there's a downloadable PDF that gives you a whole program for how do you decrease stress around sleep.

Lisa: Okay, all right. I'll download it myself.

Dr Kirk: You're taking an hour to describe it. So I just point people towards the PDF.

Lisa: Okay, people get on Dr Parsley's website and get that stress download, that free download. Check out Doc Parsley's Sleep Remedy. Make sure you start to implement all of these things and give us some feedback. Let Dr Parsley know what you think about all of this. Because I'm sure you'll be interested in feedback from people as well. Dr Parsley, thank you so much for your time. I really thank you for all the work you're doing and the amazing research and everything. This is absolutely amazing.

Dr Kirk: And well, appreciate you having me on. Anyone who doesn't know anything about it but I get to share it with people, and I'm too lazy to have my podcast.

That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

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Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn about delegation and how you can utilise it to make the most out of your job.
2. Discover the two different flow states that come into play when you're doing what you love best.
3. Listen to a variety of enlightening stories that show how pursuing what you value can change your life.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:
• • #198: How to Prioritise and Reach Your Goals with Dr John Demartini
• Connect with Dr Demartini: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube
• Check out Elon Musk's interview on 60 Minutes.
• A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!

Episode Highlights [04:21] Achieving the Improbable

• No matter what obstacles you face, you will get up again if you have a big enough reason.
• Each of us has a set of priorities. At the very top is our destiny, which is non-negotiable.
• When you're pursuing what you value, you'll continue regardless of pleasure or pain.
• By delegating low-priority things, you can go on pursuing what you value.

[09:20] The Importance of Delegation

• As long as you're doing your top priority, something that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate.
• Delegation frees up your time so you can pursue something that makes more income.
• However, when you don't recruit the right person, you end up losing money because you're having to micromanage and getting distracted.

[14:07] Hiring the Right People

• Do the basics, such as references and background checks.
• Dr Demartini specifically asks what applicants would do if they never had to work another day in their life.
• If they don't answer something close to the job description, he turns them down.
• Don't hire somebody who can't see how the job you're offering can fulfil their highest value.
• Tune in to the full episode to hear how Dr Demartini helped one of his applicants pursue what they value!

[26:06] Job Security vs. Pursuing What You Value

• Dr Demartini shares a story about how he guided a young man to chase after his dreams. He sees this man eight years later, the owner of eight franchises.
• Many people stay in their jobs because of security. However, quitting work and pursuing what you value is your choice.
• Dr Demartini's recalls a time when he accompanied a ditch digger to work. He was so proud of his job, as he brings water—and life—to people.
• It doesn't matter if the job seems small, as long as you're pursuing what you value.

[44:30] Taking Pride in What You Do

• When your identity revolves around pursuing what you value, the higher your pride is in your workmanship.
• You'll excel in whatever you do, as long as you're pursuing what you value.
• People who are pursuing what they value go beyond what is expected of them.

• Whether you start early or late, you can always begin pursuing what you value.
• Master planning is a way to get there quickly.

[46:26] The Neuroscience of Flow States

• There are two flow states. The manic flow state is a high that does not last long, as it is driven by the amygdala and dopamine.
• You get into your real flow state when you are pursuing what you value—something truly inspiring and meaningful.
• In the real flow state, you're willing to embrace both pain and pleasure while you are pursuing what you value.
• Dr Demartini likens the two states to infatuation versus love. Infatuation is short-lived and only sees the positives; love endures even the negatives.
• Manic flow is transient; real flow is eternal.

[53:33] Finding the Middle and Paying for Quality

• You shouldn't get over-excited about good things and over-depressed about bad ones. Stay in the middle.
• Looking at the downsides isn't cynicism. It shows that you have grounded objectives.
• Dr Demartini's father, who is in the plumbing business, carefully considers all variables before taking on a project. As such, he charges more than competitors.
• People will be more willing to pay for your work once you explain what sets it apart from others.
• If you get defensive about your work, you start to sound arrogant. Instead, try to be informative about the value of what you offer.

[1:03:32] Staying Stable and Flexible

• Dr Demartini is neither excited nor fearful about the future.
• He looks at both sides so that he does not become too elated or depressed. Emulating this can help you be stable enough to keep pursuing what you value.
• Over support leads to juvenile dependency, while challenges encourage independence.
• Adapt and do what needs to be done. If you can't delegate it to others, learn to do it yourself.

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

[05:34] 'Nothing mortal, can interfere with an immortal vision.'

[07:00] 'There's wisdom in not doing low priority things; there's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you.'

[23:18] 'Don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want can help them fulfil their highest value.'

[44:37] 'The pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most.'

[50:26] 'Fantasies aren't obtainable, objectives are.'

[54:31] 'If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.'

[1:06:22] 'People can be really resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.'

About Dr Demartini

Dr John Demartini has been a public speaker for nearly 50 years. He is a world-renowned specialist in human behaviour, researcher, author, and educator. He empowers people from all walks of life by sharing his knowledge on self-development and financial wellness.

One of his fields of interest is personal development where he has developed a curriculum of programs. One of his seminars, The Breakthrough Experience, uses his revolutionary techniques, the Demartini Method and the Demartini Value Determination Process.

If you want to learn more about Dr Demartini and his work, you may visit his website. You can also see him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you were inspired to start pursuing what you value, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they too can be pushed to go after their passion.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

Full Transcript of the Podcast

Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com.

Lisa Tamati: I want to welcome you back to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. Now you may recognise that latter name. He's been on the show before. And he's definitely one that I want to have him back on again. He is an incredible teacher, and educator, and author of I don't know how many dozens of books. He's been working in the personal development in space for 50 years, I think. Incredible man.

I hope you enjoy part two of this very in-depth conversation about upgrading your life–how to grow your businesses. We talk about also how to reach your full potential. And what sort of things we put in our own way. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr John. Also, I would like to let you know we have a Boost Camp coming up. This is a, not a boot camp. It's all about upgrading your life. This is all about being the best version of yourself that you can be, upgrading everything in your life from your health fundamentals to things like sleep, and understanding your brain better your mood and behaviour. Lots and lots of science, and lots of information, and stuff that's going to be actually practical stuff that you can implement in your life to improve how you're performing your health, your vision and purpose in life. And aligning all of these things together.

I hope you'll come and join us. This is an eight-week program that is live with Neil Wagstaff and myself. Neil is my longtime coach and business partner. And he runs all the programs with me that we do with epigenetics, with running hot coaching, and so on. And he is an incredible teacher. I do hope you'll check it out. You can go to peakwellnessco.co.nz, peakwellness, p-e-a-k, peak wellness dot co dot NZ forward-slash boost camp, b-o-o-s-t-c-a-m-p. To find out more, and come and join us, it's going to be a fantastic writer and you're going to learn an awful lot and get to hang out with a whole bunch of people while you're doing it. So check that out.

I also like to remind you too, of our Patron program. We have a Patron program for the podcast to help us keep this on-air, keep us great content, to help us keep the mission going. If you're into doing that, please, for the price of a coffee or a month. Sorry, a coffee a month, you can be involved in this project. And you can also get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits for your troubles. So check all that out at patron.lisatamati.com, p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisa tamati dot com. Right. Now, over to the show with Dr John Demartini.

Hi, everyone. And welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have an amazing name back again for a second round, Dr John Demartini. Welcome to the show, Dr John. It's fabulous to have you back again.

Dr John: Demartini: Yes, thank you for having me back.

Lisa: It's just–I was so blown away by our conversation last time. And I know you do thousands of these interviews and in the work that you do that you probably can't even remember what you talked about. But it was a real life-changing episode that ended up– we dived into some of your medical work earlier. We went all over the place with your breakthrough experience. I just felt like we didn't quite cover all the bases that I want to tap into your great knowledge.

Having you back again today, and today I thought we'd look at things like I want to dive into things like, 'How do we achieve the impossible?' I've been doing a lot of work and researching around, what is it that makes incredible people incredible? And that they had the ability to overcome incredible odds and difficulties and obstacles in order to achieve some possible things. And I'm pretty much into a lot of the big thinkers out there. So I wanted to start directly if that's okay. How do we achieve the impossible, Dr John?

Dr John: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's a bit of a metaphor–the impossible is impossible.

Lisa: But yeah, it's a metaphor.

Dr John: Improbable, the improbable.

Lisa: Yeah.

Dr John: When the why is big enough the hows take care of thems elves. When you have a big enough reason for doing something, no matter how many obstacles you face, you get up again. And there was an interview. There was an interview by a gentleman I think from 60 minutes with Elon Musk. And they asked him after having three launches explode back to back. 'You ever think about giving up?' He looked at the guy and he says, 'I never give up. I'd have to be incapacitated.' Meaning that his mission to go to Mars is too important for any obstacle that might arise to stop it. I would say nothing mortal can interfere with an immortal vision.

Each of us, as you know, have a set of priorities. And the very top, top, top priority is non-negotiable. It's where human sovereignty and divine providence come together, where you feel that it's impossible for you not to fulfil your true destiny. I feel that way with my mission of speaking. I just felt that that was my destiny when I was 17. And I've been doing it 48 plus years now, be soon 49 in a few months. So if you'd have a big enough reason for doing it, you'll see the challenges on the way, not in the way. It's like Edison, a thousand ways to that didn't work for the light bulb to get the light bulb. There was no option about getting a light bulb, he knew he would come up with an answer, he just kept, 'Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, next. That one doesn't work, next.'

When things are lower on your value, you'll do it if there's pleasure; you'll stop doing it if there's pain. When something's tying your value, you'll do it regardless of pleasure or pain. And you'll see both of them on the way, not in the way. So there's wisdom in not doing low-priority things. There's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you. People who do that build incremental momentum that reaches an unstoppable state, an inertia that's unstoppable. That's the key to extraordinary things. And when it's truly aligned with your value, your identity revolves around it, you feel it's impossible for you not to do it. It's not an option; it's who you are.

Lisa: So this involves looking at your values determination, how to sort out what your real– because I think this is where a lot of us come unstuck. We have lots of things we want to do, and we're curious about lots of things and have lots of passions, and it's sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in order, distilling down that vision so that you're actually hyper-focused and being able to concentrate on the things that you need to concentrate on. I know that's something that I definitely struggle with, when you have so many things that you're interested in. But you're really right when you say like, for me, with my story with my mom, if you remember bringing her back from the mess of aneurysm, there was a non-negotiable. We were doing it, and I was going to get her back or die trying was the attitude that I went inwards. That means sacrificing whatever it took to get to that place. And then we do get there, you know?

Dr John: Well, the thing is not to pursue low-priority things, and to know what those are, and say and delegate everything other than what's important. I don't do anything but research, write, teach. Those are the three things I love doing. But it's all about educating people in human behaviour. So that's the one thing that is non-negotiable that I do. Then I delegate everything else away. That way, you don't have to be distracted and run down. What drains you is doing low priority things.

Lisa: Yeah. And this is a lot– yeah, this is a lot that a lot of people, especially startup entrepreneurs, and people that are just getting there, finding your way, are struggling with: the whole delegation thing when they don't have a team around them. What sort of advice do you want to give to people who are at the beginning of their career and don't have a team yet around them to help do all those aspects of it that are draining the hell out of their lives?

Dr John: Well, what you do is you ask the question, 'How is doing this action temporarily until I can find somebody to delegate it to helping me fulfil my mission?' Link it to your brain. Reframe its words. You see it on the way, not in a way, with the knowing that you're going to delegate it. And then, it doesn't cost to delegate. It costs not to. As long as you're doing what's highest in priority that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Because you're releasing yourself to do the most important thing that produces the most income that produces more than the cost of the delegation, and that they can produce. And yet the person that would love to do that inspired to do that but doesn't have to be motivated to do that. They will spontaneously do it without even thinking about it, you can free yourself up.

In 1982, end of 1982, I hired somebody to take care of my financial things: paying payroll, paying bills, bank reconciliations, all that stuff. Because I was sitting there in October of 1982. I was sitting there doing a bank balance, like, 'What on earth am I doing?' I didn't want to do it. It was distracting, time-consuming. And while I was doing it, I didn't want to think about clients because it was interfering. I needed to get this done, and I'm pushing clients away. I freed that up, and I have not gone back, nor even seen a chequebook. That's 1982.

Lisa: Gosh I would love that.

Dr John: I can't even tell you what a chequebook in my company looks like.

Lisa: Or accounting or any software.

Dr John: I don't have any of that stuff. I have somebody that does that. That's their job. I– because that's a 20 to $50 an hour job. And why do I value my time? Well, I can make thousands per hour, and tens of thousands per hour.

Lisa: But what about the people that can't make the ten thousands of per hour or the thousands per hour, and there's still a net, they're still in taking that leap into getting the first person in the team on board and the second person. I think there's a lot of people in that, jumping from, say, the $100,000 mark to the million-dollar mark of a turnover in a company where it's chaos. I think it's chaos beyond that as well. But it's that getting the initial, taking that risk when you don't have a solid income yet, and yet, you're taking a risk on hiring a business manager or hiring whatever, even assistants.

Dr John: If you have a clear job description and you have a clear actions that you can do that can produce more per hour than having to do those things, and you can see, 'Well, I'm doing five hours a day doing trivial. If I had those five hours, could I go out and close deals?' If you're willing to do that it doesn't cost, ever cost, to hire people.

Lisa: Yeah. So it's a mindset shift, really?

Dr John: Yeah. Because what happens is you think, well, if you're not going to be productive, and they're now, you're just going to pay somebody to do something you were doing, and you're not going to go produce more per hour than it's going to cost. But it frees you up to do something that closes a deal or makes a bigger deal. Makes more income. You're insane not to do it. Now, in my situation, I saw that if I was out doing presentations and taking care of clients, I can make more than tenfold what is going to cost, 20-fold to 100-fold what I was going to pay somebody to do it. It's a no-brainer.

It doesn't cost to hire somebody. Unless you do it ineffectively. You are somebody who doesn't love doing it, you're pushing him uphill, is not inspired by it, and you have the skill by it, and you're micromanaging him and you're having to distract yourself, and you're not doing the thing that produces. That's why it costs money. Not because of delegation, but inadequate delegation.

Lisa: So in other words, recruiting the right people to your team is a huge piece of this and getting the right— So what are some of the things that you do when you're analysing somebody to take on into your team? What are some of the processes that you go through from an entrepreneurial standpoint?

Dr John: Well, I do all the basics: references and checks and those things. But I just sit them down when I meet them if they get through the screening. I sit down with them. I said, 'If I was to write a check right now for $10 million and handed it to you, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do with your life?' If they're, they don't say what the job is or close to it, I say, 'Thank you very much.' I walk away.

Lisa: Right? Because they're not. That's not the key thing.

Dr John: That's not their dream. Can I share an interesting story? I don't think I shared this before. Sorry. If I had, just tell me, cut me off. When I was in practice many years ago, I was hiring a manager, and I was scaling up and delegating more and more. We were down to two people's potentials: one was a woman, one was a man. And the man was in for that evening, about five o'clock. I worked till six, usually, but at five, I was telling my patients, five o'clock, this gentleman comes in. He had passed much of the things I thought. But he came into my office. He had a little briefcase, is about 54, looks like a violator jet, this guy. He comes in, sits down on the edge of his chair, and he says, 'Wow, this is a great opportunity. I've had the opportunity to work with your company would be fantastic. I'm awe-inspired.' I said, 'Great. Hope you don't mind. But I just got a few questions.' And I had a check. This is back before I got rid of my checks. I got a check that my lady at the front organised. I had the check in front of me. And I said, 'Your proper name is?' I put his name on the cheque. I wrote 10 million US dollars.

Lisa: It was a real piece?

Dr John: I didn't sign it, but I just put it there. I made sure he saw it. Because any facade he might have, if he saw a check with $10 million on it, his name on it, that's going to distract him. Because the infatuation of that's going to throw any facade that he might try to put on me, ultimately. So I said, 'If I was to hand you this cheque,' and I showed him the cheque. 'And I gave you $10 million upfront, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do?'

Lisa: What did he say?

Dr John: And he leaned back in his chair like this. He goes, he relaxed a second. He goes, 'Wow, if I had $10 million. What would I do? I would manufacture furniture. I have a hobby. I love making furniture. I'd make furniture and open up furniture companies.' I said, I got up. I said, 'Thanks very much.' He stood up and he was like, 'What?' He said, 'Well, did I get the job?' I said, 'No.' 'Do you mind if I ask why?' I said, 'Very simple. I'm hiring you for a management position. You said if you had $10 million, you'd love to make furniture. If you're a great manager, how come you haven't managed your life in such a way where you can do what you love?' He just looked at me and he just paused because that's a very good question. 'And I have nothing I could say, except, you just woke me up.' I said, 'Thank you,' and I escort him out.

I watched him walk with his head down slowly to his car and sit in his car for a few minutes to just process that. He's like going, 'Whoa. I thought I'm looking for a job. I'm enthused, I'm really excited, everything else. And I just got slammed with a reality check of what was really important to me. And the real truth was, is I love making furniture.' So he sat in that car, and finally slowly drove off and we ruled him out. We ruled the girl out. So we had to go through another round. Yeah.

Lisa: And so this is part of the process.

Dr John: Three weeks had gone by. And all of a sudden my assistant said. 'Dr Demartini, there's a gentleman here a few weeks ago that was looking for a job. He's back.' 'Alright, okay.' He said, she said 'Should I just sent him back in?' I said, 'Yeah.' I come down to the same office, same thing, comes in. I'm sitting in the same place, you sit in the same place. But this time, he walks in with a paper bag, a big paper bag, large paper bag with handles on. He said, 'Dr Demartini,' shook my hand. He said, 'Dr Demartini. I was here a few weeks ago,' I said, 'Oh. Yeah, I remember you.' He said, 'You changed my life.' I said, 'How so?' He said, 'When I was enthusiastic looking for the job, I've been looking for a job for three months. I didn't find one. I thought when you said, if I'm such a good manager, how come I haven't managed my own life? And you nailed me. I was a bit depressed after that, and I had a soul searching, and I had a conversation with my wife. Part of the reasons I was taking on jobs is for security instead of doing what I really love to do. And so after that conversation, I told my wife that and I said, "If I was to go out and try to build my own company in furniture manufacturing, would you endure the, whatever we go through to get there?" And she hugged him, and she says, "That's what you've always wanted to do. We'll make ends meet. We'll find a way."'

He started his company. He started telling people he's there to make furniture and he started making pieces of furniture. He made a bed, and he made a dresser, and he started making furniture and stuff. He also made it available that he could do interior in homes that were being built. He started letting people know in his network. So he's back in my office three weeks later, and he told me that that's the best thing ever happened to his life. He says, 'I've already got commissioned $5,400 worth of product with the furniture, and that's in three weeks. I'm on track, probably for making $10,000 to my first month now. And that's more than what I was probably going to get paid.'

I said, 'Congratulations.' And this is what he said to me. He said, 'You have no idea how much more energy I have, how inspired I am. I don't care about how many hours it is I'm working. I'm staying up, and I'm a different man. I'm loving it. I'm in, I now understand what an entrepreneur is, a bit.' And he said, 'But this is what I want to do. Because you gave me such a gift. When I came in your office, I noticed the wood. Because you filter with your polar nuclei of your diencephalonic thalamus. You put, you filter reality coin, what you value most. So he noticed the wood in my office.

He said, 'And I noticed that you had Kleenex boxes sitting on these little rolling carts. It would really be honourable for me if I could actually take those little Kleenex boxes, and melt my Kleenex box systems on your wall that match your wood. All you do is lift them up on a hinge, put the Kleenex box and pull the tissue, put it back down to replace it. And then you have more space on your thing, because I noticed you had less space on there than probably ideal. It really means a lot to me if I can put them in all your rooms.' I said, 'I would be honoured to have those in there. And I want you to do me a favour. I want you to put your card on the bottom of each one. So I can, for referrals.' He said, 'I would be glad to do that.' He said, 'But that would mean a lot. Because you just changed my life.'

He ended up doing what he really loved to do, grew his business. I got complimentary things in all my rooms, which was an added bonus. But it just goes to show that people, when they're doing something that's deeply meaningful, truly inspiring, high in priority, they excel. So don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want to help them fulfil their highest value.

Lisa: Be it personal and be it roles. And not this division of the company.

Dr John: The actual actions. So you make sure you have a job description with all the actions and you ask your potential candidate: 'How specifically is doing this actually going to help you fulfil what's most deeply meaningful to you?' If they can't answer it, don't hire them. If they answer with enthusiasm on all those things, you get them, grab them. If they don't, don't worry because they're going to be microman— you're gonna have to motivate them. Motivation is a symptom, never a solution to humanity.

Lisa: And in changing that, I've got a friend Joe Polish. If you know Joe, he's a very famous marketing man and an incredible connector and so on. He talks about, he was talking about entrepreneurship one day, I forget the context of the situation. But he teaches about entrepreneurial things, how to do it. He's hugely successful. Someone said to him once, 'You've had the same assistant for the last 21 years, for how many years, a lot of years. If she's been hearing you talk about how wonderful it is to be an entrepreneur to do all these things, how come she hasn't gotten that information and runoff and become her own entrepreneur?'

He called the lady over and he said, 'Why is it that you still with me?' He knew the answer. But she answered, 'Because I don't want to take on the risk. That's not my job. That's not my passion. My passion is to serve Joe and be the person in the backstage setting all those things up. That is my highest power. That is what I love. That's why I'm still here. I love working with Joe, and I love his mission. And that's what I'm happy doing.' That's the key, is not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Or everybody should be having the same mission. It's that she understands what her passions, what the job is.

Dr John: If everybody was an entrepreneur, who would be working for him?

Lisa: Yeah. We'd have a hell of a mess. And being an entrepreneur is a long, arduous, often difficult, lonely road full of holes, along the way, potholes. It isn't for everybody, but for people like you and for me, it's, I can go for it. I've got to be running my own ship. And learning from people like you is great for me because then I can see what helps my next steps and what I should be doing. Instead of—

Dr John: Can I share another story?

Lisa: Go for it.

Dr John: So, right about the same time when I was hiring that other person, a young gentleman, late 20s, I'm guessing, mid to late 20s, came into my office, and asked if he could have a meeting with me. And he worked with Yellow Pages. There used to be a thing called Yellow Page.

Lisa: Yeah. I'm old enough.

Dr John: They were ads, telephone ads. You put a listing, it's free. But if you put a listing with a little box or a little ad in it, it's a little bit more. You bought the Yellow Page ad. So he was trying to sell Yellow Page ad. So he sat in my office. And he started to do this little spiel. And I had the time. So I took a moment to do it. Because I was curious what the prices were. And at the end of his little spiel, and not even to the end, three quarters through, I stopped him. I said 'Stop. Just stop.'

That was the worst presentation. That was so off. I said, 'This is not what you want to do in life. What do you really want to do in life?' And he looked at me and he goes, 'That bad?' And I said, 'It was bad.' 'I bet you haven't sold anything.' He says, 'No, I haven't.' I said, 'This is not you. What's your heart? Where's your heart? What do you really, really, really, really dream about doing in your career?' He said, 'I want to be in the restaurant business.' I said, 'Go to a restaurant today to get a job there, and work your way up until you own your restaurant.' He goes, 'Well, I needed to hear that. Because I respect you and I needed to hear that from you.' And then I sold him a little audio cassette tape that I'd done, called The Psychology of Attainment. And he bought it, it was only 10 bucks.

He walked out with his $10 thing to listen to because I knew if he listened to it, it would encourage him to keep it going. He left there. Eight years go by, never seen the guy again. Eight years go by. I had moved to a new office. And I was on my way to go have lunch with my CPA. He picked me up. I came downstairs, he picked me up, took me to this little Super Salad restaurant nearby because we both had less than an hour to eat. So it's quick. Get in there and get a salad. You walk in and this Super Salad is a thing where you get a tray, and it's got a whole bunch of foods. And whatever it is they weigh it, and they charge you the acquired weight. So you get salad. You pay less if you get something with it.

As I walked in, and we started going to the line, I saw that young man grown up eight years older in this suit, talking to another man in a suit. And I said, 'If you don't mind going get me a tray. And I'll catch up. I see someone I must say hi to.' I walk over to this guy. He's talking this man. He's not paying attention to me. I'm standing right next to him. And as he's talking I'm just standing there waiting for him to finish. All of a sudden he finishes, the guy starts to walk off he turns around as if he's going to say, 'Can I help you?'

Lisa: Yeah, he didn't realise this.

Dr John: And obviously he looks at me and he goes, 'Oh my god. Wow, wow.' He shook my hand, and ran off and got the other guy to come here, 'This is the guy I told you about.' And he told him, 'This is the guy.' And the guy said, 'Oh, thank you. I'd love to meet you. He's told me all about you, he said you changed his life.' And I said, 'Well didn't know until today. What impact–

Lisa: What are you doing? Yeah.

Dr John: But the guy told me, he says, 'I have eight franchises. I come into my restaurant. That was the manager. I'm checking up on my restaurants and I'll go to the next one. I check them out once a week, I go make my rounds.' He said, 'That day, I got me a job at Super Salad. I worked myself into a management position for over two years. As I was saving the heck out of my money, which your tape set said to do, I bought into the franchises and I got eight franchises.'

Lisa: Jesus! Just from that one tape, that one conversation, see this is the impact–

Dr John: I said to him, 'You just inspired me.' It brought a tear to my eye to know that– because I thought maybe I was a bit tough on you. He said, 'Sir, you did the most amazing thing to my life that day. Because the truth is, I wanted to be in the restaurant business. And now I am.'

Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a Patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisatamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.

Lisa: You've encouraged him basically to have faith in the dream and to– because everybody else, like your family, often your friends, often are, 'You can't leave that safe job.' I've had this conversation with my husband who's a firefighter. And he says like, 'I can never leave the fire brigade because it's what I've always done. And that's how I've always, you know, it was my passion,' and so on. And I said, 'Yes, but you don't have to stay there. That's your choice. Opt for security and– If you want security, if you want to do something, then do it. Life is short.'

Dr John: All I know is that if you're not doing something you're inspired by, life can be pretty horrible. I see people. I didn't, I used to get, I lived in New York for a while. And we lived in Trump Tower there, fifty-sixth and fifth, right underneath Donald, so I knew Donald. So I live there for 29 years. And sometimes, you can take taxi. Sometimes, you take, when we're going in the airport, I got a limo. But just going around the city, sometimes I'd have a taxi. I get in the taxi and I– if there was a mess, sometimes I'd pass it by. I go, 'No, smelly. No, no respect.' But again, in a taxi– if I'm in a hurry, it's hard to get, right? It's 3:30 to 4 o'clock march, I get in whatever I get, because I don't want to wait another 20 minutes. But I get it and I go, 'How long have you been driving a taxi?' And they'll say a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever it may be. I said, 'Do you love it?' Some will look in the mirror and go, 'Pays the bills, man.' And I said, 'But do you love it?' He goes, 'Are you kidding, man? If I got a thing in New York, you got to be nuts.' And they have that attitude.

Of course, the car is usually a mess. It's got ripped holes in it. It's got cigarette burns. It's got a little bit of an odour. You know it's not taken cared of; it's not clean. But then you get in another car. And, 'How long have you driven a taxi?' '28 years.' I said, 'Do you love it?' 'I love it. I get to meet people like yourself. I meet the most amazing people every day. My father was a taxi driver. My grandfather was a taxi driver in New York. I know every city, every street, I know every part of the city. Here's my card. You want some water?' 'Sure.' 'Anything you need to let, give me feedback about my car, please tell me. If there's something not in order, if somebody left something there, if it's dirty, let me know. I'd like to make sure that everybody gets a good experience in my car. If you want to know about the city, you just ask me. Anytime you want to go anywhere in the city, you contact me. And there's my card, I will take you, and I'll make sure you got the best thing, and I'll be on time for you.' He was just engaged. And he loved it. And of course, I got his card. And I called him. And sometimes when I was going around the city, I would use him. He would even come back and pick me up.

Lisa: And it shows you that it doesn't matter if you're cleaning toilets or you're a taxi driver or you're at the garbage disposal. Whatever job you're doing, do it well, for starters. That can be your mission in life, is to provide that service. It doesn't have to be taking on the world and flying to Mars like Elon Musk. It's just, do your job; do it well. I don't, I just– I have issue too, with people who just doing the job, getting the paycheck, not doing the job with passion.

You can tell. I walk into my gym and there's a new lady on reception who is just beaming from ear to ear, fully enthusiastic. I see her training; she trains like a maniac. She's just always happy and positive. When somebody comes into that gym now, they get a positive smiley receptionist. 'Come in' and 'How was your day?' The contrast to the other person that works at the gym who's surly looking, never smiles. And if you, say 'Hello, how are you doing?' It's like, 'Mmm.' And you think, 'Wow, that is just the difference between someone who's just, "I'm so lucky to be here" and "I'm working."'

Dr John: They're engaged versus disengaged. Can I share another story?

Lisa: This is great.

Dr John: Right. My father, I started working for my father when I was four. He owned a plumbing business. He wasn't a plumber. He's an engineer, but he had plumbers working for him. And my job was to clean the nipples. And they sound a little sexual, but it's actually, these little pipes and couplings, so it's interesting. But I used to scrape them out with a brush and oil them to make sure they would be preserved because they'll get a little rusty sitting around. Then, my dad would then, every once while, not every day, but most of the time, would give me the opportunity to go out with the plumbers to go on calls to learn plumbing. Everyone, so he would say, 'Well, you're going to go with Joe today. You're going to go with Bob. You're going to go with Warren. You're going to go with…' And this one day, he said, 'You're going to go with Jesse.'

I spend part of the day with Jesse. And Jesse was a ditch digger. He was an Afro-American man that was a ditch digger. And I said, 'You want me to go with Jessie, am I going to dig a ditch?' He said, 'Yes. I want you to go with Jesse.' I said, 'Why?' He said, 'You'll know when you get back.' 'Okay.' So I go out with Jesse. We drive to this house that is about a 35-year-old house that needs a new water main from the street, the main from the street up to the house. And so he got a T-bar out, and he got a hose, and he got some paper, and he got a sharpshooter, which is a special shovel, and a little round-headed shovel, and a level and a string. This long string thing wrapped up on this piece of wood. And some, and another stick. The stick that had string around it where there are two sticks on either end. You could open them up unravelling.

He stayed one at one place, stayed the other place, exactly where the line is going to go. Then he took a T-bar and went down into the ground to make sure there's no roots, no rocks, no anything that might interfere with the laying of a pipe. Then he watered it to make sure that you could go and if you dug it, it was just wet enough that it wouldn't crumble if you turn the sod over. And then he lined paper on one side of it. And then he showed me how to dig the ditch. I would go down to exactly the width of the sharpshooter, which is how deep it had to go. And then we would turn it over onto the paper. And that meant that the grass wasn't even cut, it was just folded over. Right. And we had a perfectly straight ditch. And then he showed me how to create the ditch with this other little thing. And it would go on top of the sides. It wouldn't fall off into the grass. It would just be on top of the paper, and on the inside. Then he took the level and he made sure that the grade was perfectly level from one place to the other because if you have a dip in it, water will sit there and rust and it'll wear out quicker. But if it flows exactly in line, you don't get as many rusting.

We put this pipe down, pretty perfectly clear, perfectly graded. We levelled it, made sure it was perfectly level. We installed it to the house, into the main. We then put some of the dirt back over it. Put the sod back on, patted it down, watered it, squished it down, loosened up the grass so you couldn't even tell it had ever been done now. And we had a brand new waterline done. And when you're done, you could not, until you could walk around, you couldn't tell it was done. It was perfect. And then we got in the truck and started to drive off. And I asked, you know, Jesse, his name was. I said, 'That was neat.' You know, I'm a young kid. And I said, 'Call me J for John.'

He said, 'J, I have the greatest job on this planet, the greatest job a man could ever, ever, ever ask for.' And I said, 'What do you mean?' I thought he's a ditch digger. He said, 'Without water, people die. I bring life to people. My job is the most important job. They can't bathe. They can't drink. They can't make food. They can't do anything without my water pipe. I had the most important job on this planet. And I bring water to people. Without water people die.' And I thought, 'Whoa.' And I came back and he said to me, 'My job is to do such an amazing job that they call the office and complain that we never came.'

Lisa: Because they can't see where he's been!

Dr John: It's so immaculate. They don't believe that somebody came and they'll call and cuss out your dad. "Why is it not, why did you not do the main?" And your dad knows. Tell them, "If you don't mind just walk out. They will see that the main is there."' They're unbelievably astonished that there was no mess and it's perfect. And he didn't tell us about Jesse, and the respect he does when he does water main. He knew that if I would go out there and learn from him, here's a man that does what he loves. Yeah, and he's the ditch digger. And in those days, you didn't make a little bit, you didn't make a lot of money.

Lisa: And I love that. And it just reminds me of my dad. He was always cleaning up at the garden. He was a firefighter professionally, but he would be, every spare moment, gardening somebody's garden, cleaning up, landscaping, doing it. And he worked on films as a landscape artist and so on. He was always the one that was cleaning everything up, everything was immaculate by the end of the day. Whereas every, all the other workers were just, 'Down tools. It's five o'clock, we're off,' sort of thing. Drop it and run. Everything was always a mess.

My dad, he always had everything perfectly done. And was, always came home satisfied because he'd spent, when he wasn't at the fire brigade, he spends his day with his hands in the dirt, out on the sun, physically working in nature, and loving it and doing a proper job of it. So yeah, it just reminded me because he taught us all those things as we were growing up too. And would take us and teach us how to paint and teach us how to, all of these things.

Dr John: The more something is high on your value that you're doing, your identity revolves around your highest value. Whatever is highest on your value, your identity revolves around. As a result of it, the pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most. Because you're inspired and love doing it. And it's, your identity goes around it. So my identity would rather revolve around teaching. So I'm inspired to do teaching. I can't wait to do it.

Whatever high an individual's values is what they're going to excel at most. And they are wanting to do it not because they have to, but because they love to. People do something they love to, completely do a different job than people that have to. They're creative, innovative. They go out of their way. They don't care if they have to work extra time. They don't care about those things because they're doing what they love.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. You have some fabulous stories to illustrate the point. So whatever you're doing people, do it properly, and do it with passion, and try to get to where you want to. You might, this just takes time to get to where you want to go. You come out of school, you're not going to end up being near the top of your game. But you have to start somewhere and head towards what your passion is. I wanted to figure—

Dr John: If you start out right at the very beginning, master planning, you can get there pretty quick. In 18 months, I went from doing everything, to do the two or three things that I did most effectively. I delegated the rest away. But my income went up tenfold.

Lisa: Wow. Yeah. Because you were actually doing the things that mattered the most.

Dr John: Me going out and speaking and me doing the clinical work was the two things that I was, because that's the thing I went to school for. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do the administrative or I didn't want to do all that other stuff. Hire people to do that. That freed me up.

Lisa: Yeah, it's a fantastic message. Now, I wanted to flip directions on you if I could, and I've been doing a lot of study around flow states and optimising. How do we build into ourselves this ability to be operating at our best, which we've been talking a little bit about? What neurotransmitters are at play when we're in a flow state? How do we maintain this over time to remain inspired and not be worn down?

We think about flow state or I don't know how to put this into words, people. By that I mean, it's that state where you're just on fire, where everything's happening really well, you're at your genius place, your talents are being expressed properly, and you're just in it. I would get that when I'm running, or when I was making jewellery and I would, time would disappear, and I'd be just in this otherworldly place, almost sometimes. How do we tap into that? Because that is where we as human beings can be our optimal, be our best. Have you got any ideas around that as far as the neurotransmitters and the neuroscience of flow states?

Dr John: Yes. It boils down to the very same thing I was saying a moment ago: not doing low priority things. There's two flow states though, and they get confused. Maybe people have confused a manic elated, utopic, euphoric high, which is a fantasy of all positives, no negatives in the brain that makes you manic. That flow state is a hypocriticality, amygdala-driven, dopamine-driven fantasy high that won't last.

Then there's a real flow state. When you're doing something that's truly inspiring and deeply meaningful, you get tears in your eyes getting to do it. You're not having a hypocriticality, you're having a supercriticality, where the very frontal cortex is actually activated, not the lateral but the medial one, and you're now present. It's the gratitude centre; it's grace. There you're in the flow because you're doing something you really love to do that you feel is your identity. That's where time stops.

Some people confuse a manic episode with that state. But a manic episode crashes. But the real flow state is inspired. That's when you're able to do what you love doing consistently. When Warren Buffett is doing, reading business statements, and financial statements, and deciding what companies to buy, this is what he loves doing. For me, I'm studying human behaviour and anything to do with the brain, and mind, and potential, and awareness. I'm that way. I can lose track of all time and just be doing it for hours. It's not a manic state. That's an inspired state. An inspired state is an intrinsically driven state where you're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it.

You love tackling challenges and solving problems, and you'll just research and research or do whatever you're doing, and you just keep doing it because you won't stop. That's not a manic episode. Although manics can look similar, there's a difference. Though a manic state comes from the dopamine, you got a high dopamine, usually high serotonin, you got encapsulants, endorphins. But you also don't have, you're not perceiving the downsides. You're just seeing all upsides. You are blinded by little fantasy about what's going to happen. And that eventually catches you, because that it's not obtainable. Fantasies are not obtainable, objectives are.

Eventually, the other side comes in, and osteocalcins comes in and norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, the stress responses. Because all of, all of a sudden your fantasy's not being met. But when you think you're going after the fantasy, just think of it this way: when you're infatuated with somebody, you're enamoured. You're in this euphoria. All you see is the upside, and you're blind to the downside. Actually, at this time, you say, 'I'm in love.' No, you're infatuated. And then when weeks go by, and months go by, you start to find out, 'Oh, I was fooled. That person I thought was there is not who I thought.' And you find out about this person. And that's short-lived. Yeah.

When you actually know that human beings can have both sides, and you don't have a fantasy of one side, but you embrace both sides, and know that they're a human being with a set of values. If you can communicate and articulate what you want in terms of those values, you now have a fulfilling relationship. It's a long term relationship. It's not volatile. It's not manic depressive. It's just steady. That's the one that's the flow. That's what allows the relationship to grow. The manic thing is transient. The real flow is eternal.

Lisa: So it's the difference between being in love, and infatuated, and being in actual true real long-term love.

Dr John: Well, infatuation, people confuse with love. If I have an expectation on you to be nice, never mean; kind, never cruel; positive, never negative; peaceful, never wrathful, giving, never taking; generous, never stingy; considerate, never inconsiderate. If I have a fantasy about who you are and I'm high because I think I've found this person, that's 'Oh, well, it's all one-sided.' It's not sustainable. No one's gonna live that way. But if I have an expectation, if they're a human being with a set of values, I can rely on them to do what's highest on their value, and nothing more. I respect their value, I see how it's serving my value, and I can appreciate what they're committed to, and don't have any expectation except them to do what they do. They won't let me down. And I'll be grateful for them.

Lisa: Why didn't you tell her that when I was a 20-year-old finding the wrong people in my life? Relationship-wise, are you going after the wrong types of people?

Dr John: If you go after it a little infatuation, you have to pay with a broken crush. You never have a broken heart; you have a broken fantasy. Eventually, it helps you actually learn to go after what's in your heart.

Lisa: And value what is really important. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice to have had never met a lot sooner?

Dr John: There's no mistake, so much happened, because you wouldn't be doing this project.

Lisa: No. Then this is what every piece of crap that's ever come your way in life has got an upside and a downside. Because I hear in one of your lectures talking about this: don't get ever overexcited, and don't get really depressed. It's always in the middle. You put it so eloquently, it was, whenever something good happens to you, don't get too overly excited about it. And whenever something bad happens to you, don't get overly depressed about it. Because there's something in the middle of there. You're not seeing the downsides of that good thing, and you're not seeing the upsides.

I've actually integrated that now into my life. When something good, I used to have this thing, 'Oh my god, I have this breakthrough. I've had this breakthrough.' And 'This happened to me.' And then I'll go and talk about it. And, because I'm a very open person and I found actually that's not good in a couple of ways. Because I'm overexcited about it. I've ticked it off in my brain almost as being happened.

Dr John: If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.

Lisa: Yeah. And you think it's already happened. Say you meet someone, new possible job, or it's a possible contract, or something like that. And you got all excited about it. Because you've got you've initiated the process, but in your brain, you've already ticked that box and got the job and you're off.

Dr John: Then you undermine it. And you said it's related about a job opportunity. You usually have it taken away from you. You're mostly unready for it. If you're really ready for the job opportunity, you're going to know what it's going to take workwise to be able to get paid. You'll already get the downside and your objective. And know, 'Oh, that's gonna be 28 hours of work here.'

Lisa: That's not cynical, that's not cynicism. That's actually not realism.

Dr John: It's grounded objectives. People who keep grounded objectives don't have job opportunities taken away from them. But people who get elated about it, brag about it, talk about it, almost inevitably disappears.

Lisa: Wow. Okay. And so you got to be looking at, I've elated— a couple of opportunities come up that are possibly I'm thinking about doing. I'm like, 'That one's gonna take so much work in this direction. That means going to be the sacrifice for you.' And the old me would have just gone, 'Yeah. Let's do it, jump in. And I'm like, 'Am I just getting old or is this actually a better way to be?'

Dr John: My dad taught me something as a plumbing industry. He'd have to, they'd say, 'Okay, we're going to build this house. Here's all the plumbing that's going to be involved in it.' They'd see the plans. He'd have to do an estimate. What would it cost to produce all that, put that together? If he got elated and he didn't do his cost, by the time he finishes, he didn't make any profit. But if he does his due diligence and knows all the responsibilities, what happens if it rains? What happens if there's delays? What happens if the permits are delayed? He puts all the variables in there and checks it all off. He then goes in to the customer and says, 'This is what it's going to cost.'

He said, sometimes the customer would come to him and say, 'Well, yeah. But this other one came in at $10,000 cheaper.' My dad would sit there and he would say to him, he said, 'I want to show you something. I guarantee you, the man that comes in at $10,000 cheaper, is not going to be thinking of all the variables. You're going to end up not having the job that we're going to do. Let me make sure you understand this. You may not hire me, and that's okay. But I want to make sure you're informed you make a wise decision. Because if you don't, you're going to go pay that side to save $10,000, it's going to cost you an extra 10.'

Lisa: Yep. Been there, done that.

Dr John: Well, my dad used to go through it, and with a fine-tooth comb, he explained all the different variables. He says, 'Now, what I want you to do is go back to the person that's giving you those things and ask them all those questions. If they didn't think about it, they're going to either not make money off you and they're not going to want to continue to do the work. Or they're not going to do a great job because they're losing money. Or you're going to end up getting a thing done, then they're never going to want to do follow up and take care of you again as a customer. So here's what it costs. I've been doing this a long time. I know what it costs. I know what the property is. So I'd rather you know the facts, and be a little bit more and make sure it's done properly. Then go and save a few bucks and find out the hard way.' Here's the questions they go check. They came back to my dad.

Lisa: Yep. When they understood that whole thing. And I think this is a good thing in every piece of, every part of life. It's not always the cheapest offering that's the best offering, which you learn the hard way.

Dr John: I had somebody come to me not too long ago, maybe four months ago, earlier this year. And said, 'I go to so and so's seminar for almost half the price of your seminar. Why would I go to your seminar?' And I said, 'That's like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen.' I said, 'So let me explain what you're going to get here. Let me explain what you're going to get here. Then you can make a decision. If you want that Volkswagen outcome, that's fantastic. If you want a Rolls Royce, I'm on the Rolls Royce. I'm going to give you something about here.' And once you explain it, and make the distinctions, people will pay the difference.

Lisa: Yeah. And that's– in a business, you have to be able to explain to them as well. When I was a jeweller, when I started, I was a goldsmith in a previous life. And we used to make everything by hand and it was all custom jewellery, etcetera, back before China and the mass production and huge factories and economies of scale really blew the industry to pieces. For a long time you were actually in that hanging on to one of those and not transitioning into the mass production side of it because I didn't want to, but not being able to represent the value that actually what you were producing: the customisation, the personalisation, the handmade, and people wouldn't understand that.

You end up chopping your own prices down and down and down to the point where it no longer became a viable business. And that was the state of the industry and so on and so forth. But people could not see the difference between this silver ring and that silver ring. That one's a customised, handmade, personalised piece that took X amount of hours to produce. And this is something they got spit out of a production line at a team and other people are wearing. But people can't see the value difference.

Dr John: Yeah, you have to, you're responsible for bringing it to their awareness. If you've been to a sushi restaurant, they have this egg that's in layers. I noticed that to get some nigiri with an egg on it with a little seaweed wrapped around it, it was like $4 per piece. And the other sushi was like $2 at the time. I thought, just an egg. Why would it be that much? And then I thought, and then I watched him prepare one, and how many hours it took to prepare one of those slabs of egg because he had to do it in layers. We had to loony take a pan, take an egg, poured in the egg, cook it just a certain level. And then lay that, scramble it, laid on top layer to time while it's hot, and layer by layer by layer by layer and cut it and everything else to make that thing. And I realised that is an individual egg-layered piece of egg. And I realised after seeing him I go, 'That's a $10 egg.'

Lisa: This is cheap.

Dr John: I was thinking, 'How the heck does he do that for four bucks? How did he make any profit out of it?' I never questioned it after that. Because I could see there's a distinction made.

Lisa: Yeah. And it's the same thing with the coaching I do, with running coaching, or whatever. 'But then so-and-so's program is X amount of dollars cheaper.' And it's like, 'Yes, but have they done what I've done? Do they have the systems that we have? Do they have that— you're comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen to use your analogy.' But you know, it's hard not to come across as being arrogant when you say that. But you mean it like—

Dr John: Just don't be defensive. If you get defensive, you can come across as arrogant. You get informative; there's no arrogance.

Lisa: Explain the process and say—

Dr John: You care about them to make sure they get— make the wisest decision. And that means inform them of the differences.

Lisa: And then, they're accepting with our ads—

Dr John: You're not attached to it. You're not doing it to make a sale. We're doing it because you know it's gonna be to their advantage. When they see the integrity and sincerity of that, they'll probably—

Lisa: I think that's a really good key. I wanted to just flip that, and we've got to wrap it up, because I know it's time to go. But just, I'm really excited for some of the converging technologies that are coming our way. I wanted just your take in the two minutes that we've got left. You know, we've got AI, we've got robotics, we've got supercomputing, and quantum computing, and all of those, well, it's going to change the way that we live in the next 5-10 years. So change our health system, or finance system, crypto, there's everything. Are you excited about the future, or are you fearful about the future? Where will you sit on this? Because a lot of people are feeling very unsafe and unsure about all this sort of stuff that's coming.

Dr John: Neither.

Lisa: Not too high, not too low, because— I should have predicted this.

Dr John: Ecologists that are optimists of the future are counterbalanced by the sceptical ecologists that dwell on the past. For every gullible optimist, there's always a sceptical pessimist to keep things in check. So I don't allow my stuff to get emotionally exuberant, because I know that that's just half of the equation and the other half is going to come anyway. I look for both sides and realise there are new technologies; there are new challenges.

We're seeing it right now. We've got a new COVID vaccine, right? There are people that are saving the day by. They think, 'Oh, you're saving the day.' You got another say that and you're trying to cause death in people. You got the optimists, pessimists on it. And the overly exuberant people that are manically elated about it, and the universe have to be brought back down into grounding to show the downsides. The downsides have to see the upside. And when you see both sides, you're stable. If I find myself elated or depressed, I ask new sets of questions to calm down the elation, to lift up their depression, and cent8re myself. So I can stand my objective and fulfil my mission.

Lisa: And you think that the truth always lies somewhere in between these two polarised views of the world?

Dr John: If you're blinded to the downsides, and you're elated and infatuated, you're not seeing what's there.

Lisa: So you're not actually looking at the science and what's actually there.

Dr John: You're not looking at both sides. If you have both sides, and you can show both sides and you're prepared for it, you're stable, you're steady, you're objective, and you're prepared.

Lisa: So how do you get through there? That's the final point I want to talk about. Because you know, some of the change that's coming is going to be pretty radical. There's going to be complete industries that disappear. There's going to be new ways of doing business. And there's all these things. How do we stay flexible enough to be able to adapt? I see the older generation, and I look at my mum in here who cannot function in this world without a kid that can pay the bills and do the things because they cannot— they're not able to, she's not able to stay up with the technology.

Dr John: Well, she's able. She's choosing not to, strategically.

Lisa: Probably. You're damn right there. I'll tell her that. She's learned helpless. And that's because she—

Dr John: If you weren't there, she wouldn't just lay on the streets.

Lisa: She would, she will find someone else to do with a cushion. Smile sweetly. You're probably right there, to a degree, but it is getting—

Dr John: People can be very resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.

Lisa: If someone doesn't rescue them like I rescue my mum. But the rate of change, I think, is quite unsettling for a lot of people: the staying up with the technology, and the staying up with the changes that are happening.

Dr John: If somebody takes care of that, and they adapt, and they just take care of them. They have no need to. If they got nobody to take care of them, they will not allow themselves to get out, or they'll say, 'I don't want to live any longer.' They'll just pass on. But if you rescue them, and you don't have, they don't have any accountability, they have no need. Over support make some juvenile dependent. Challenge makes them precocious independent, and it's a challenge to keep them alive.

Lisa: Oh, absolutely. I'm 100 on that; I'm all on board with it. I've just realised I probably had a blind spot in relation to technology because, 'I just can't do that.' Yet I don't need to get away with it in the gym or on the training like this, but I let her get away with it. Right.

Dr John: At one time, I thought I was going to be overwhelmed by using a cell phone.

Lisa: Yeah, and you've adapted.

Dr John: I've slowly adapted, and I know how to do the things I need to get done.

Lisa: Yeah. And you would take on more if you had to. You don't exactly have your old average brain doctor job.

Dr John: The thing is I delegate so much. If I don't want to do it, I just delegate. If I find no one to delegate to, I learn it.

Lisa: Yeah, I must try that on with my brother. He seems to, 'I can't work that one out,' he says. 'You'll have to do it for me.'

Dr John: Well, my wife, who is from Melbourne, Australia. Remember Athena?

Lisa: Yes, yes. Yes.

Dr John: She was a very lovely, amazing woman. But I only saw her cook twice the whole time I was with her. One time she cooked in New York, and she broke a $400 pot, burned some food, and destroyed a plate. It cost me about $475 plus the food. That's a $500—

Lisa: And you're hungry that night.

Dr John: And I said, 'Honey, the time you spent going to the store, preparing anything else. This is insane. Let's just go to dinner. Go to a professional who knows what they're doing.' She said, 'Yeah, you're right.' Then she did it one more time, she cooked. And then we burnt fish that we couldn't even get off the grill. I think we even damaged some store-bought bags of cabbage. But anyway, afterwards, I told her I begged her, 'Please don't ever cook again.' And she goes, 'Okay.' Now, she was strategic. Because she knew she cooked well if she had to.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So she had you wrapped around your finger like my mum has me wrapped around—

Dr John: We went to this restaurant and had fine dining.

Lisa: Nice. Nice, nice, nice.

Dr John: She knew that if she cooked well that she'd be trapped in a kitchen.

Lisa: Clever lady. I wonder if I could change the— It's hard once you've actually down that rabbit hole and they know that you can. Dr John Demartini, you've been wonderful. Thank you very much for the second visit on Pushing the Limits. It's been a wonderful hour to speak with you again and I really thank you for your work and your insights today.

Dr John: Thank you. Thanks for having me again.

Lisa: Fantastic.

That's it this week for Pushing The Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends. And head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

This was an interview with Lisa and Simon for the Nourish Life podcast.

From this podcast, Simon and Lisa talks Mental Toughness, Resilience & Overcoming any challenge. Lisa got a chance to share her incredible story about her mother and how to never giving up on someone when the odds are stacked against them.

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Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds"

Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatam... for more Information

ABOUT THE BOOK:

When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn.

She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying.

This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy.

Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine.

This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.

We are happy to announce that Pushing The Limits rated as one of the top 200 podcast shows globally for Health and fitness.

**If you like this week's podcast, we would love you to give us a rating and review if you could. That really, really helps to show get more exposure on iTunes**

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

Strength training is often associated with professional athletes who need to condition their bodies. However, the general public could benefit from it as well. It's not just people who want to bulk up who need strength training, either. Regardless of your age, sex, and occupation, strength training can have massive benefits for your wellness.

In this episode, Russel Jarrett joins us to share some insights from his 30 years of experience in the fitness industry. He talks about what makes an elite athlete and how talent is not the only determinant of success. We also dive deep into the benefits of strength training and optimising your fitness.

If you want to know how strength training can help you function better, then this episode is for you.

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Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Know what propels an athlete towards an elite level.
2. Learn the various effects of strength training on our bodies.

1. Discover the importance of hormones to our health.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!
• Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:
• • #187: Back to Basics: Slow Down Ageing and Promote Longevity with Dr Elizabeth Yurth
  • #188: How to Increase Your Self-Awareness and Achieve High Performance with Craig Harper
• Connect with Russell: Website
• The Australian Fitness Podcast
• The Future is Faster Than You Think by Steven Kotler
• Lifespan by Dr David Sinclair
• Dr Elizabeth Yurth's online course on longevity
• Kultured Wellness
• A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!

Episode Highlights [03:10] Russell's Background

• Russel went into athlete strength and conditioning because he didn't want to teach.

• He worked with various athletes in Australia for a long time while still working with the general population.

• He has since branched out to several business enterprises related to health and fitness.

[06:03] What Makes a Good Athlete

• Elite athletes have a strong belief in their abilities.

• They stay confident and driven, regardless of their performance.

• Some athletes are exceptionally talented and find a way to play at the highest level.
• Even if you don't have innate talent, you can improve. You just need the right combination of drive, dedication, and perseverance.

[11:22] Observations on Different Sports

• Athletes adapt their mentality and physicality based on their sport. For instance, footballers have high pain tolerance, while golfers possess intense concentration.

• Endurance athletes used to think that strength training would inhibit their ability to do well in their sports.
• Now, they're beginning to recognise the importance of incorporating the appropriate strength training for their sport.

• Improvement of your form, minimisation of injury, and faster healing time are some benefits of strength training.
• Our bodies are predisposed towards either endurance or strength training. The key is finding the balance between what you enjoy doing and what your body responds to.

[24:30] Strength Training for the General Public

• Strength training helps to prevent accidents such as broken hips when our body starts to lose muscle mass.

• Women tend to avoid strength training because they don't want to bulk up.
• However, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better it is for your hormones.

• Strength training also improves your quality of life and overall lifespan.

• If you want a body that works better and feels better, incorporate strength training into your exercise regimen.

[32:37] Optimising Your Hormones

• You're not going to see results from exercise and diet alone. You also have to consider your hormones.
• Your motivation also hinges on your hormones, so it's crucial to optimise them first.

• Strength training is a natural way to boost hormones, especially for women.
• The story of Russell's wife is a perfect example that training and nutrition are not the only things at play when it comes to our health.
• During menopause, his wife suddenly felt unwell and gained weight. Then, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks. Listen to the full episode to know how she did it!

[44:13] Bouncing Back From Life's Setbacks

• Training your body today can allow you to bounce back from health problems down the road.
• Listen to the full episode to hear about Lisa's amazing neighbour in his 60s who rapidly recovered from his hip operation!

• Russell had a client in her 40s who completely reinvented her body in three years.
• Russel's client soon became fit enough to participate in a competition called The Big Red Run.

[46:45] Taking Tiny Steps Towards Change

• You do not have to do everything today. Making small changes is better than overwhelming yourself.

• Decide on a few things that you can commit to doing.
• Once you implement those changes, you will feel yourself getting better and wanting to improve even more.

[52:35] Being Proactive About Your Health

• Lisa's husband is genetically three times more likely to develop Alzheimer's due to genetics. However, they actively mitigate that risk.

• Lisa shared a story about a man whose health was in decline at 65 but is now active again at age 75. Listen to the full episode for the details!

• Russell advocates for self-medication through exercise, nutrition, sunlight, and being outdoors.

• Do your due diligence—do your research and take charge of your health.

7 Powerful Quotes

'[Athletes are] not invincible, but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability.'

'Good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up.'

'Strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form.'

'If you train well and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s and 40s, then your 50s, 60s and 70s will be a whole lot easier.'

'It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation.'

'You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical, or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency.'

'With your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.'

About Russell

Russell has 30 years of experience in athlete preparation and training the general population. He has worked with the AFL, AIS, Cricket Australia, WNBL, and ABL. Today, he owns 24/7 fitness facilities and consults with clients from all over Australia.

He is also an educator and a speaker at different institutions. Furthermore, Russell built two registered training organisations and has coached hundreds of trainers over the years. He is a firm believer that physical performance improvement is for everybody.

If you want to reach out to Russell or know more about his work, you check out his website.

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!

Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can understand the importance of strength training and optimising your fitness.

Have any questions? You can contact me through email ([email protected]) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

Full Transcript Of The Podcast

Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.

Lisa Tamati: Well hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Now Russell is one of Australia's leading strength and conditioning coaches, owns a number of gyms with his lovely wife Tara, and has also worked with many elite teams from the AFL, from soccer, from golf, to tennis. He's been around a while and done a lot of things. So you're going to really enjoy this conversation on strength and conditioning and how to optimise your fitness.

Before we go over to the show, just want to let you know that we have our BoostCamp live webinar series coming up on the first of September, it starts. It's eight weeks long, we're going to be doing a live seminar every week. You're going to be we're going to be learning everything around levelling up your life, basically. So how to age like a winner, how to reduce your stress, how to deal with all the things that are coming at us, and are overwhelmed today's society. We're going to teach you how to tap into your biology through your neurology. So we're going to be looking at how to optimise your sleep, health fundamentals, nutrition, exercise, all those sorts of good things, as well as things like circadian rhythms.

It's going to be a really good life program, basically. So we hope you can join us over there. If you want to find out more, go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, that's boost with an -st. No, it's not boot camp, it's BoostCamp. We won't be making you do burpees during the webinar, I promise. So make sure you come and join us over there: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.

We also have our flagship program running, as usual, our epigenetics. This is all about understanding what your genes are about and how to optimise your life to your specific genes. Now we use it with lots of our runners. We also use it in the corporate sector for teams and leadership teams and building strong companies. We also use it for people who are going through different health crises and wanting to optimise their health fundamentals to help them through. So if you're interested in finding out about that, just go to peakwellness.co.nz. Okay, now over to the show, with Russell Jarrett.

Lisa: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Welcome to the show, Russell. Fantastic to have you!

Russell Jarrett: Thanks, Lis. Good to be here.

Lisa: We have a mutual friend who's put us in contact, and we're very, very grateful. We're going to be sharing some good stuff around health, fitness, health optimisation, strength, and conditioning. That's your jam. Now you, Russell, can you give people a bit of background? You've got a hell of a lot of experience in working both with elite athlete teams and different sports, as well as, the general population through your gyms, and your studios, and so on. Can you just give us a bit of a synopsis on your career, if you like?

Russell: Yeah, sure. So it stretches back some 30 years now. I started like many other coaches do. You know, working on the gym floor and understanding what that environment looked like and felt like. Once I finished my physio degree, I decided I didn't necessarily want to teach. I moved into athlete strength and conditioning. That was an area which seemed to really raise my interest. I got involved in that. But back in those days, it was very much a part-time role and a part-time world. There wasn't really professional sporting teams as yet. So I had to then supplement with work in the fitness industry, and with general population.

I've always had one foot in either world, and I've worked with elite athletes in various sports in Australia for a long time. But I've also had my own business enterprises and studios or RTOs, and things like that, that I've used to provide myself with a stable career. Because one thing I have learned in the strength and conditioning world is that it's a great environment to work in. It's exciting. It's high pressure. It's always different. It's challenging. But it's unstable, and it can be volatile. Because as they say it's a results-based industry. So if the results aren't coming, for whatever reason, and that may or may not have something to do with what you do, it might not. But nonetheless, if there's a change in personnel, quite often you're part of that change.

Lisa: That's so true. You know that that's what I love. You have to be flexible, adaptable, and being able to sort of go with the flow. When you're an entrepreneur, I mean, on this, similar sort of world, different but similar. You have to make that happen, basically, if you want things, if you want to keep in business, and you have to be good at your job, otherwise, yeah, people aren't going to come back.

I want to go a little bit into your experience with working with elite athletes for starters. Because I think it interests, a lot of my— so my listeners are endurance athletes, not everyone. Everyone's a lot of average, sort of people interested in health optimisation and being the best that they can be. My background is as an ultra-endurance athlete.

What is it that you think sets a good athlete up from a mindset point of view? Before we get into the strength and conditioning side of the equation, which is hugely important, but do you think that there's—

like having worked with general population and lots of elite athletes, what is that some of the key differences that you see between the two groups, if you like?

Russell: Yeah, look, I think when people start to figure out that they have a talent, or a gift, or an ability that is above and beyond what is considered normal, I think along with that comes a strengthening in their self-belief and their understanding of what they can do. That takes time. But there are still athletes that will, by their own admission, will struggle with their own self-belief and their own levels of doubt, and so forth. They're not invincible but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability. They know what they can do. They know what they're good at. They're obviously passionate about it.

Then I think for the elite athletes, it's just an ongoing evolution of that ability to stay focused, stay driven, stay hungry, and stay confident when perhaps their performances are suggesting otherwise. I think that's, good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up. I think that's probably one of the things I noticed the most.

Lisa: Perseverance. Do you think there's a difference between— is the most important thing talent? Or is the most important thing, a never quit attitude and I'm gonna keep fighting a fighting sort of attitude? What do you think's more important?

Russell: I think there's a combination there. I think it's different for every person. I think there's definitely athletes that are extremely exceptionally talented: Michael Jordan, NBA, Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Schumacher in F1. These kinds of people are supremely talented. They're just playing on another level. I think for those people, they probably don't suffer the same levels of doubt or stress than others might.

Now, on the same environment, you've got people who are not that talented. So there were people that that played in the same team as Michael Jordan, right? So there was a guy from Australia called Luc Longley, who was one of the pioneers of Australians into the NBA. Luc Longley was a seven-foot centre, who played a couple of seasons with the Chicago Bulls. Now Luc Longley, and he'll tell you this, was in no way shape or form as talented as Michael Jordan. But he still managed to play in the same team, at the same level, and win championships alongside Michael Jordan.

Now, it's not talent that got Luc there. So it's got to be something else. Obviously, he had some talent. But he obviously had incredible desire, hunger, dedication, perseverance. He had some ingredients that he combined with his talent to allow him to play at the highest level. So I think it's different for every athlete. Some athletes do their thing because they're in extremely talented environments. They're just freaks at what they do. Then there's other people that you look at in all sorts of sports, and they don't—

Lisa: —work your ass off.

Russell: Yeah, they don't look that athletic. They don't look amazing. They don't do extraordinary things, but they just keep going and they hang in there. They find a way to play at the highest level. It's quite extraordinary.

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly my background, I absolutely had no talent as a runner. Absolutely none. Just for sheer bloody-mindedness got sort of pretty good at it. I think, that's why, for me to ask the question because for me, talent is, if you've got it, then you're bloody lucky. But even if you haven't, if you're one of those people listening that goes, 'You know, I haven't got any genetic abilities and talents and stuff, but I really want to do it.' Well, don't give up on your dream.

I remember going to Millennium Stadium in Auckland with the Auckland University doing VO2 max testing and all that sort of stuff. They said to me afterwards, like, 'If you're a young athlete coming to see whether you'll be good at endurance sports, we'd tell you, don't give up your day job. You're actually below average, below average.' Small lung capacity, very low VO2 max. I said, 'Well, lucky, nobody told me that back then. Because then I wouldn't have gone on to do the stuff that I did.' That's the point now that just because you don't have the talent doesn't mean you can't. You might have to work your way around things, you might have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you. You have to be prepared for that battle. But I think you can.

Okay, so you've worked in the AFL, cricket. What other sort of sports have you worked with? And what do you see as differences between the sport arts as well? Any sort of insights?

Russell: Yeah. I've spent some time in the AFL, with Cricket Australia, I've worked with netballers, basketballers, tennis, and golf. Look, physically, all of those athletes differ because they adapt according to what their sport requires of them. So footballers have exceptionally high levels of fitness capacity, strength, endurance, agility, power. They're very well-developed and well-rounded athletes. Then you've got golfers who essentially are not always very athletic, although the sport is getting better. But they have incredible levels of coordination, incredible levels of concentration, incredible levels of focus. Because that's what their sport requires. So I've been lucky to work in different sports.

Yeah, you're right. I always see these little nuances between different sports and what they bring to the table. Footballers, generally have really high levels of pain tolerance, because to play at that level, it's quite uncomfortable. Whereas golfers have incredible levels of concentration and mental resilience. Because you can stand over a putt, which might be four feet long, but that one shot over four feet might be worth a million dollars.

Lisa: Wow. Yeah.

Russell: So you better make sure that you've got incredible focus, and that your internal dialogue is very calm and very measured. Because if you're standing over that putt worth a million dollars, and you're like, 'I don't know, if I can do this,' and your heart rate is pounding, you're not in a good position to make that putt.

Lisa: Wow. That's a good insight.

Russell: Yeah, isn't it?

Lisa: It is because, I've often looked at golf and thought, 'Why the hell are they so high pay when you've got some triathlete, or Tour de France winner, it gets, a pittance in comparison.' And you're thinking, the training and the dedication and these dangers and all of that. You think that. So it's interesting to see that there is a different lot of things at play and it's the brain. I mean, I watched Docker last night, I love neuroscience. There was a great one just on Netflix, actually, and it was looking at how the neurons in the nervous system work. It was looking at a boxer and all the stuff that's going on in the brain. It was like, wow, there is different types of coordination, fitness, reaction, emotional control, all of these things play into this game that we are, whatever sport you're into, and into life in general and staying healthy.

One of the things that I found interesting, they were talking about ultramarathon runners having the blood sugar levels of a diabetic and I was just like, 'Really? Is that why—?' Because I've been monitoring my blood sugar levels over the last couple of years, and I'm going, 'What the hell! They're extremely high at times.' I'll be doing like an interval training session and fast, evening hours and I was up at nine and a half and I'm like, 'Oh, my God, I'm diabetic.'

I'm now like, listening to that yesterday, now I'm like, 'Ah, ultramarathoners trained their body to respond with huge amounts of blood sugars, and they're very insulin sensitive.' So actually, the opposite is actually happening. But if you just took that at face value, you just took that 9.5 measurements on blood glucose, you'd think, 'Oh, my god, she's got diabetes.' So it's a really interesting world. Or when you're recruiting, you're doing a big, heavy weight, the neurons as what you're training, not just the muscle fibers, isn't it?

Russell: Yeah. In fact, with a lot of strength training, and that's what people find, especially people who are new to strength training, they actually develop new levels of strength quite quickly. If you take a beginner, and they've never done weight training before, strength training before, you can actually get them quite strong within two to three weeks. They'll notice a difference in two to three weeks. Now, that's not a physiological adaptation in the muscular system. That is a physiological adaptation in the nervous system. So their nervous system adapts and changes much more rapidly. So that's why you see that rapid increase in strength.

Lisa: At the start.

Russell: At the start. That's right. Then after a couple of weeks, the muscular system also changes and starts to catch up.

Lisa: Wow. Is that also why you have a little bit of a plateau after your initial gains? And you're like, 'Ah, this is great, I'm gonna keep improving,' and then you don't.

Russell: Exactly. So the nervous system changes rapidly. Then the adaptation to the stimulus of that starts to slow, and then you get more physiological adaptation in the muscular system. So, over time, the process of getting stronger is a combination of those two systems constantly being stimulated and constantly adapting to the changing stimulus.

Lisa: Wow. What sort of changes Is this making our body like from a health and well being and in longevity and anti-aging sort of stuff? I'm heavily into actually, resistance work, weight training, it doesn't have to be heavy, heavy stuff. But you have to be doing weight training as far as I'm concerned. So I'm coming from an endurance athlete background, that's not, that wasn't, certainly wasn't the conversation until our company, we're very big on the strength, we're big on the mobility, we're big on the not overdoing the running, not doing the high mileage models and ignoring the strengths, which is, the world that I sort of grew up in, when I was, learning as a young athlete, ultramarathon running.

There wasn't a guidance for starters. I remember ignoring strength and conditioning completely, and the strength side of it. Now realising, that's actually the base gains, the biggest weight changes, like isn't weight loss, the biggest metabolic changes, the biggest form changes for runners, strength trainers, the stability, the lack of injuries, like all of these things are just huge parts of that puzzle, even for endurance athletes.

Russell: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Going back maybe a couple of decades, strength training and endurance athletes, they didn't really talk to each other. It really wasn't part of the picture.

Lisa: Yeah. Detrimental to don't do weights if you're a runner.

Russell: You're absolutely right, there was a segment of the endurance world that believe that if you're lifting weights, that you could damage or inhibit your ability to run or do endurance sports. We know better than that now. We know that it is absolutely possible and actually recommended to combine endurance training with the appropriate level and type of strength training to benefit endurance athletes, no doubt.

Lisa: Yeah, it's a great insight.

Russell: When endurance runners, runners or cyclists or triathletes, when they get stronger, provided it's done in the correct fashion, as you say, it actually has benefits to their running technique, to their running form, to the minimisation of injury, to their ability to recover. Everything improves when you're stronger.

Lisa: Yeah. And anabolic as opposed to the catabolic nature of our sport, which is tearing stuff down all the time instead of rebuilding. We need— on that point as well, the whole 'I'm going to bulk up' mentality, it takes quite a lot to actually bulk up and there's different types of strength training to reach different types of goals. And the other aspect I wanted to ask you about like I do genetic testing and epigenetics, and understand the different sort of genetic combinations. If I put someone who is strength-based by genetics, and I put them into super long-distance endurance training, I'm going to be mismatching their genetics.

How that worked out for me in my life was I did ultramarathon running when my genetics are actually built around high-intensity sort of medium weights in shorter episodes, or shorter duration is actually what my genetics want. I decided to do ultramarathoning because I decided to do it. But I didn't know that, actually, from my genetics, it's actually really important to be doing some weight training. It's actually important that I don't overtrain as in the long distance.

Now, my active career time is over. So I've gone now for longevity and things that are more important to me now. I've found that I'm a lot healthier, a lot fitter. My hormones are in better balance because I'm doing what's in line with my personal genetics. It doesn't mean I can't even run an ultramarathon again. I can. But I shouldn't be doing them back to back if I want to live a long time and not break myself.

Do you see that? I mean, you were— without going deep into the embryology and epigenetic side of it, but you got your ectomorphs, your mesomorphs, and your endomorphs as a broad categories. The endomorph population really, really benefit from strength training. Like it's really important. It's counterintuitive, especially for females and the population, because they think they're already bigger, stronger people. And they think that when they go to do weight training, that's going to make them like really massively bulky. What would you say to that? Have you come across that experience at all? Look, I'm in the weeds here. But—

Russell: No, you're right. Certainly, people are more predisposed to certain activities, which is essentially what we're saying. So I'm an ectomorph. But my body shape and my body composition is more ectomorphic. I'm quite slight, narrow shoulder. I don't weigh much. But I do still strength train. But what we're saying here is that because I'm not sort of genetically gifted or predisposed towards strength training, it also means that I'm what we call a slow gainer or a non-responder. For me to put muscle on my body, for me to get stronger, I've got to do a lot of hard work and I've got to eat a lot of food. Because it's really hard. My body does not want to get bigger. But if I put a pair of shoes on a winter run, my body is very happy. So you're absolutely right.

Now, with females, yes, there are people that are going to respond better to endurance work, and respond better to strength work. But I guess what it comes down to is, how do you then combine that predisposition to what it is that your goals are, to what it is that you enjoy doing, and to what it is that your body responds to? That's the I mean, if I had the answer to that Lisa—

Lisa: That's your secret sauce.

Russell: Yeah. If I had the answer to that, Lisa, I'll be making a fortune.

Lisa: Well, that's right. That's why I study epigenetics. It's really key or we work with different platforms but then technologies and stuff. But what I get out of it is that gives me the black and white information and then as a coach, then I can help you piece together the right combination. So if I've got someone who's like me or is more suited to shorter, high-intensity CrossFit style workouts for the one a bit of description, and they want to do ultramarathons, then I'll tailor their programs or our company will tailor the programs to fit that so that they can still do their goals but without wrecking their body. And that will be a lower mileage program than what it would be for you if I was training you who is an ectomorph, who can take more of the distance.

I think what's also important to understand is that strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form. Especially as we get older and like when we hit our 40s and we start losing muscle mass naturally like that's what happens. This is where I see lots of runners especially our you know becoming like beef jerky, for lack of a better description, sarcopenic, losing muscle mass, then losing bone mass, and they may be cardiovascularly fit. They're not going to die of diabetes and being overweight, but where they run into troubles is with stress fractures and osteoporosis and lack of muscle. And that can kill you just as quickly as well.

I mean, a lot of people die of osteoporosis and breaking hips. You break a hip when you're above 60 and you're in trouble. That can lead to death. The stats for that is worse than it is for cardiovascular disease. That's just pretty scary when you start unraveling the whole bone. So it's really important for me to have people who aren't just endurance junkies, if you like, understanding, especially once I've hit the 40 and above that they get into that weight training, that they get into some strength training of some sort, at least.

Russell: Yeah, with all my general population clients, if they are, if they are above the age of 50, I recommend to all of them strongly that some part, small to significant, but some parts of their weekly exercise routine has to include some form of relatively heavy strength training. Because if you want to look at one form of exercise that can improve your quality and length of life, it's strength training.

Lisa: We're on the same page. Yeah, and that's, you know, me coming from an endurance background saying that. And this is super important for a woman to hear as well, because I think women have a natural tendency, 'I don't want to get bulky. I don't want to get muscular.' I can tell you now ladies, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better, the better your basal metabolic rate is, your human growth hormone. When you do strength training, you're going to up your levels of human growth hormone, which is going to help with your anti-aging, which is going to keep you younger, which is going to help with all of these different areas of cognitive, as well as physical, as well as sleep as well— every area of life is impacted. If you're doing heavy weight training, you go to sleep better, I'll tell you that much.

It's not just cardio, cardio, cardio, I think is the message that I'm trying to get across here. That's very important. Everybody should be doing a certain amount of cardio. It's absolutely crucial that we sweat, that we get our heart rate up and we do all that stuff. But it's the combination. In every decade where you go through, you basically need a new approach, I'm saying. You know, the ratios. We all need cardio. We all need strength training. We all need mobility as the other part of that conversation, which is your Pilates, yoga, foam rolling, all that sort of good stuff. Then it's the ratios that become different as you age. Then how heavy are you lifting and what body type do you have.

If you're a big, strong endomorphic body type, I can put some heavier weights through your joints, that's going to be good for you. If you're an ectomorph, I'm going to put some lighter weights, but I'm still going to put weights for you.

Russell: I did a podcast with Craig Harper the other few weeks ago, you've been—

Lisa: A couple times. Yeah man, he's awesome.

Russell: I said to Craig, 'What I say to people all the time, "If you train well, if you train well, and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s, and 40s, then your 50s, 60s, and 70s will be a whole lot easier."'

Lisa: Hell yes. This is gold man. Because the older you get, the more you have to focus on this. And the more you have to train, not volume-wise, but the more you have to focus on this and get that combination right because it becomes more and more important, not less and less important. And what I see when the over 50s, and 60s, and 70-year-olds is that they go, 'Oh, I'm older now I don't have to do as much.' That's the opposite of what you should be doing. I'm older, therefore I can get away with less therefore I have to do more in the right context.

I have, you know, a story. People who listen to my podcast know about my mom's journey. And she had an aneurysm five years ago, and she is at the gym five days a week. This afternoon, we'll be at the gym. We'll be doing weight training, and cardiovascular work, and coordination work, and yoga. Those are all parts of her rehabilitation. Now it's relative to her age; she's 79 years old.

Unfortunately, I didn't know all this back in the day. So I missed the boat in her 40s, and 50s, and 60s. And we've started in her 70s and coming back from a massive rehabilitation project, like, five years in now. God, I wish I had known what I knew then now. Like what I knew, what I know now, I don't, didn't know then because she would be in so much better shape. So now, I have to work that much more strategically in order to keep her where she is and to keep her moving forward into her 80s, and 90s, and hopefully beyond that. It's doable.

Russell: Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. The understanding in the general population, in the general community, the understanding of our strength training is still poor. It's getting better because people like you and I are out there banging the drum saying, 'Get strong. Lift heavy. Do your weights. You're not going to blow up. You're not going to give bulky. It's going to give you nothing other than a better, a better body that works better, moves better, feels better, functions better—'

Lisa: —and dies later.

Russell: Exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, we haven't, we probably haven't come up with the anti-aging drug. But I think weight training is pretty close.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely.

Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years, and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.

This year another aspect that I've been really deep in the weeds on lately is hormones. A study under Dr Elizabeth Yurth, and she's a longevity doctor and orthopedic surgeon in America, brilliant lady, love her to pieces. I just did one course with her and it was like what to fix first. She was like, 'I'm not going to tell you to do the right diet or the right exercise program. The very first thing that I'm going to get you to do is optimise your hormones.' Your hormones need to be— if you don't have testosterone and estrogen in the right levels in your body, and human growth hormone, and all the other hormones, and the right combination, and the right thing, then you are not going to be able to exercise.

She said, 'If I tell someone who's severely overweight in their 60s who hasn't trained before just to go to the gym and start working out and their hormones are in the gutter, they're not going to be able to. They don't have the motivation. Because hormones are related to motivation. They don't have the ability. They don't have the energy, all of these aspects.' So optimising our hormones is a really important piece of a puzzle. I think this is a new conversation that's starting to open up. This is not about whether you know, like, we're not talking about, you know, illegal anabolic what bodybuilders or whatever have traditionally done.

This is about optimising your hormones as you age and we start to lose, drop our testosterone, you guys especially in the late 40s, 50s start to really notice a big drop. If we can actually optimise that. That leads you know— like I do hormone consults and stuff. This needs to be done under doctors or people that are specialised in this. But if you can get that right, then you're going to have the energy to go and do the right exercise and you'll be more likely to eat right as well. Because you won't be having this downward spiral because if you get your hormones wrong and you start to feel lethargic, you start to have less energy, less cognitive ability, and, and, and, and, and.

For me I'm actually like, 'Right, how do we optimise people's—?' Or, 'Let's have some conversations around this.' Because to date, it's either been, okay woman, maybe hormone replacement therapy. Okay, if they're going through menopause or something like that. For guys, it's only the bodybuilders who have been getting testosterone.

I'll tell you now, men, if they get their testosterone levels checked, and if you can work with a good doctor, and that's a big if, trying to find the right one to work with. And get them optimised for your age and for where you're at so that you're actually— because then you will age a lot slower. But it needs to be done carefully because you go the wrong way and you can end up with cancer. So you need to understand your innate pathways and all that.

Without getting into that conversation, but just getting into the fact that hormones are absolutely crucial. And we can do things to boost our testosterone naturally: weight training. And women, you need testosterone as well. That's where your estrogens come from, for starters. They come from progesterone, to testosterone, to estrogens. And men when you do, so the more weight training you do, and the more, you'll have more human growth hormone and more testosterone available to you. And doing things like sauna and things also huge, huge. Like you do three days of sauna, you're going to have a 1600%, I think it is, increase in human growth hormone for the next couple of days.

Russell: You're absolutely spot on. About two years ago— my wife is 51.

Lisa: Wow. She doesn't look it.

Russell: Has always been really good with her diet, really good with her training, always strength trained, always been a strong lady, and fit. About two years ago, started to feel unwell, started to be, kind of a little unmotivated with regards to exercise. But she still kept fighting through it. And she goes, 'I'm just going through a flat phase.' Anyway, long story short, started putting on a little bit of weight, which was unusual because her diet was very good, her training was very good. In 12 weeks, she put on 12 kilos without explanation.

Lisa: It's menopause.

Russell: Exactly. So got hit fair and square between the eyes by the menopause bus. But she went to three different doctors, and none of them were prepared to explain, or assist, or advise, or refer. They all said to her, 'You know what, for your age, you're in pretty good shape. I wouldn't worry about it too much.'

Lisa: Ah, this makes me so—

Russell: Then one guy, one doctor looked at her and said, 'Oh, you're an attractive lady. What are you worried about?'

Lisa: It's not about attractive lady. It's about optimisation. When will the doctors start to understand that it's not about the disease? It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation. That's the change that's going to happen. I can see it coming. Keep going.

Russell: She finally, we made some phone calls to some friends. We did some research. She stumbled across an anti-aging doctor in Melbourne who was in his mid-90s and was still practising.

Lisa: That says something about him already.

Russell: Right. And he sat with her for, I guess, an hour and a half. And he explained to her what he did and how long he'd been doing it. And he said, 'No one will tell you this.' He goes, 'No regular doctor refers to me or believes in what I do.' He then met her for sort of an extended consult in which she did three blood tests over the space of six hours. He then managed her hormone profiles and prescribed her some medication and some testosterone. She lost, without changing her diet, without changing her exercise, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks.

Lisa: Yup. That's an extremely important story. Russell, I hope the hell that she's sharing that out in the world because I have to get her on and share that in depth.

Russell: There's a lot more to that story. That's the brief version.

Lisa: I want the full version. You should get your wife on my show.

Russell: Lisa, it really upset me and it really made me frustrated, as I'm sure you've been through the same process. I've heard your story about your mum. It just made me really upset that our medical profession is so— not all. I don't wanna generalise, but a large percentage of conventional doctors are so far behind. They're so far behind.

Lisa: They're so far behind, and this is changing. I mean I'm reading a book at the moment called The Future is Faster than You Think by Steve Kotler. Unbelievable what's going to happen in the healthcare space. The data that's coming, the AI and all this sort of stuff, it's exciting because it's putting the power back into our hands because we'll be able to have the diagnostic tools. At the moment, I'm frustrated and frightened too because this stuff I know about I want to get from my mum or for myself and I can't get them, peptides and all this sort of crazy awesome stuff. I'm a biohacker, I experimenting the hell out of myself.

I've just been, I'm going through menopause. I'm 52, I've gone through menopause. I started on a product called NMN which I'm now importing to New Zealand and I work with a molecular biologist in this area. And this is an anti-aging longevity supplement that Dr David Sinclair, who wrote the book Lifespan, you have to read that book if you haven't. So I've been on that now for seven months— eight months. I've reversed my own menopause. I was already aware. I'm already on TTA. I'm on progesterone. I'm on estrogen. I already am optimising. I understand my genetic risk factors so I'm on all over that because I don't just do this willy-nilly. People, if you want a hormone consult, I can do that. That's what I do now.

I'm the leanest, fittest, I'm not fit in the ultramarathon sense, I couldn't go out and run a 200k race like I used to be able to. But I wasn't fit then. I was fit in that one thing, but I wasn't— I didn't feel athletic. I was overweight. I was puffy. I was hormonal. I was up the walls. My body was in overtraining. Now at 52, I'm leaner than I've ever been, I'm stronger than I've ever been, and I've got more energy than I used to have.

When I went, you know, the last few years have been pretty rough. I've had a rough life, with mum, losing my dad, and losing my baby, and spit some shit towards their way. And still, you know, like, okay, I've been through the wringer and I've had a few things along the way. But this is why it's so important. Because you're going to get that from life. It's gonna come, sooner or later, you're going to get smashed in the face. The more stronger you can make your body so that it bounces back if you have an injury, or sickness or a virus or whatever, the better.

I mean, I've just been through shingles the last four weeks, which has been bloody awful. But now I'm back, and I'm training, and I'm back into life, and I'm optimising. That's not surprising because the stress levels that I've been through and exposed to are the reasons why my body was hammered. So you can't always avoid these things. These things are still going to happen to you. But if you're strong and resilient, and you've got the right nutrients, and you've got the right training, you will bounce back 100 times faster.

I've got a mate up here who is 60, I think he's 65 years old, and he's a kitesurfer. Legend of a bloke. He's been a waterman. And he's just had a hip operation. Within two days he was out walking. Within three hours of the operation, he was up. And I see him all day, every day. Now he's on the bike. Now he's down there watching the waves. He can't get out there yet, but he's walking every day. Like, that guy's gonna come back and bounce back like nothing because he is fit and he's just raring to go.

That attitude, it doesn't matter that he's 65. He's a kickass athlete. You want to watch them kite surfing, I'm in awe of him. He's out there for three, four hours and the biggest scariest, like stuff I would never touch. I don't know where to start. This guy's just killing it or up our mountain skiing. You don't have to accept that, 'Oh you're now 50. So it's time for you to settle down and get a bit more sedentary. And you probably put on some weight, and you're— that's just life.' No it isn't!

Russell: No, that's right. You're absolutely right. I've got it reminds me of one more little story. I had a lady who sat with me in my office about six years ago. I'll paint you the picture. Early 40s, quite overweight, very unathletic, very inexperienced with exercise, very intimidated by the gym, poor nutrition. Like the classic sedentary person. Anyway, we started talking and I managed to convince her to just gently start something. I made some adjustments with regard to her diet because it was horrendous. She started eating better, drinking less sugary drinks, eating more fruit and vegetables, meats, eating less processed food, started training, then started feeling better, losing weight, started getting more excited by the process. Three years later, she competed in an event in Central Australia called The Big Red Run.

Lisa: Oh, yeah. I've done that.

Russell: Yeah. Well, there you go. She covered, what was it, 160 something kilometres in four days.

Lisa: Amazing.

Russell: Just, this was a woman, when she sat with me, she couldn't run. She wouldn't be able to run more than 500 meters without stopping. In three years, she did the Big Red Run. In one day, she had to cover nearly 80 kilometres.

Lisa: Yeah, that one kicked my ass. I ended up with a back injury and didn't make it. So I know how hard that one is. Like rain, it's hot—

Russell: It's amazing. She literally reinvented her body in three years.

Lisa: In her 40s. Not 20s.

Russell: Yeah. In her 40s, yeah.

Lisa: That is just gold. What an incredible story. And even for me, you don't have to— I had a lady on the podcast a couple days ago: Cindy O'Meara, nutritionist. She was teaching me stuff about numbers, and preservatives, and shit. And I'm like, 'Oh, my God, you know. And that's even like a—' But I didn't have any idea of that level of information and how they feed them on plastic bacteria and put it in our food. I'm like, 'Wow, this is just horrific.' But she said to me, 'You don't have to go out and do everything today.' Just decide, 'This week, okay, I'm going to eat a little bit more organic. This week, I'm going to go and switch out for my, you know, something organic, better chocolate.' If that's what you're into, and you want to eat chocolate, then you don't want to be having the cheap and nasty. Go and find a good one.

You know, so it's just, in other words, taking tiny steps and every day that we make those little wee changes and those little wee steps, don't overwhelm yourself, because then you'll chuck it in. You don't have to be perfect. It doesn't mean you can never ever have an ice cream again. It doesn't mean that. It just means that you're making these incremental changes in your life, and slowly you start to get better. We're all on this continuum of change. And I'd bet you don't need 100% perfect to train, 100% perfect. I have days when I have a 'F-it day' and you know stuff. Because I've had a bad day and I know I've done it. And then I'm like, 'Okay, well, you know that this happened. We'll get back on the bandwagon.'

Russell: Yeah, yeah, look, you're absolutely right. We're not saying to people that you need to eat like a monk and run marathons like David Goggins, not saying that. We're just saying, as you rightly pointed out, just small adjustments over time, identifying, okay, if you're unfit, if you're not eating well, what are two or three things that you could change today that would not feel like we're making your life incredibly uncomfortable? What are just three things that you could change?

Eventually, you change them. You realise that it wasn't that hard. You realise that you feel better for it. So then you start looking for what else can I do? What else can I change? You know, what else can I optimise? Then over the process of three years, this lady completely changed and completely optimised to the point where you would consider her somewhat of an elite athlete.

Lisa: Wow, this legend.

Russell: Yes. It's a great story. But it just shows you, with dedication, with discipline, consistency, all those words, that they're not necessarily easy or pleasant, but they're irreplaceable, and they're critical.

Lisa: Yeah. And education.

Russell: Yeah. You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency.

Lisa: Yeah. And don't over— then the big piece of the puzzle is don't overwhelm yourself. Just take it one step at a time. I'm studying cryptocurrencies at the moment because I can see the writing on the wall. This is what's coming at us is a complete new system, right? And I'm like at the moment, in that phase of like, 'I don't get any of this.' Like, you must have been talking Latin to me. But I know if I keep reading, if I keep listening, if I keep on, I will start to pick up the terminology. I will start to understand that I know the process of learning.

I know that's how I learn languages. That's how I learn medical stuff. That's how everything I don't understand at the beginning. I don't worry about the confusion. I just let it wash over me. And then my brain starts to create these patterns of recognition. Then I start to get, 'Hey, I understood what that person says,' and 'Oh, I'm a little bit clever.' Then you're away and you're off to the races. Because then you start to become curious, then you start to become passionate. Then you're like, well, then it's up to you. Like how far you take that one. And that's how you do it. You don't go, 'I'm going to sit down here and I'm going to study cryptocurrency for five hours today because that's what I'm studying.' That will blow your mind, you know? But if you just take that little bit.

Russell: Absolutely. Lisa and I think as I age, I'm 53. As I age—

Lisa: Same as me.

Russell: Yeah. I'm trying to become more aware of where are my weaknesses, and I don't mean physical. Because my physical— because I've been exercising for 30 years. Physically, I'm in good shape. My blood pressure is fine. My body composition is good. My strength is good. It's all fine. I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Because my, I guess my internal fear is, at what stage in my life will I cognitively start to decline? I know it's probably going to happen. But I'm trying to keep my mind strong.

Lisa: You don't need to, it doesn't need to. This is my area, man. Yeah, we'll have the talk offline. Yeah, there are lots of things. Like having brought my mum back from a massive brain damage, like she had hardly any higher function, I do understand what it takes to keep the brain going. You'd be doing a lot— I don't— because you've got a good diet and all that sort of thing, and you're exercising, those are two massive factors for brain function, you're much less likely to get Alzheimer's and so on. And with a bit of sauna and things like that, then you can lower the risk. And then you understand what your genetics and your predispositions, and then you can understand what to do to mitigate it, then you hop and things like that, like the hyperbaric which is the corner of my room, that type of thing, that will keep your brain function going.

We don't— I don't, I don't see Alzheimer's or any of those things. Because I have so many things in my war chest, if you like, with my tools that I can pull out. For example, my husband has a genetic, three times risk of the normal for developing Alzheimer's. So I bought him a sauna. I chuck his back into the hyperbaric. I watch it. I make sure he's getting good fats in his diet. I try to keep the beers down. That's the biggest struggle I've got with that one. He's training, and he's running 100 miles, and he's doing all these good things. So I don't see it even though he has a three times risk, genetically speaking. I can control that risk by a large degree, by the diet, by the exercise by the right interventions. So we're not passive.

When people— I just had another interview with another fellow Australian this morning, Kirsty from Kultured Wellness, lovely lady. And she had a dad that she talked about. He was 65, starting to cognitive decline. She changed his diet to keto, she started getting more exercise, doing all that sort of stuff. Now he's 75 and he's back teaching. And then he's fully functioning again. You don't need— you can't just go to the doctor and they'll give you a magic anti-Alzheimer's pill. There's nothing there yet. They are working on stuff. They've got some things that can slow things down. But don't rely on that. Bet on the lifestyle, and intervention, and this training, and the diet, and all of those sorts of things that you can control and you might not even develop it.

Russell: Yeah, well my goal is with my training, exercise and nutrition, is to self-manage my health. Because I just feel that if I can avoid interaction, If I can avoid the need to be a part of the medical system, then I'm okay.

Lisa: I'm desperate to be apart, away from.

Russell: I don't want to have to rely on a doctor, or a hospital, or a treatment, or a drug. I don't want to. I want to self-medicate through exercise, nutrition, reading, learning, being outdoors, sunlight, all of this stuff. I want to self-medicate for as long as I can.

Lisa: That's the one. That's the one. If we have an accident we'll be very glad for their brilliant abilities, plastic surgeries. Not saying that they're brilliant, absolutely brilliant. What we're falling down is in the chronic disease management.

Russell: Yeah, but I also feel, Lis, that it's my responsibility to manage my own health. I don't— It's not up to the doctors and the nurses. I want them to be looking after truly sick people who are injured, or unwell, or have cancer, or— I don't want to give them like, 'Don't look after me. I'll do it myself.' If one day, I fall over and break a leg or do something stupid, then I'll need your help. But until then, I'm happy for them to look after people that really need them. And I'll look after me.

Lisa: Yeah. And this is, even from a macro perspective, we'll wind it up in a second, but I'm loving this, but the social, you know, from an economic point of view, if they understood that if they were educating people, then there would be less load on the health system. I mean what's coming at the health system, as far as diabetes, when you look at our teenagers and our children who are already obese, who are already pre-diabetic in some cases, who have all sorts of hormonal issues, and what's coming 20 years down the line when they reach their 40s and 50s. Oh, Crikey, we're in for a hard ride, then. From an economic, macro-economic standpoint.

Even in the slight, you know, the latest COVID situation, started again, but why is there not a bigger conversation around boosting your immune system so that if you do happen to get it, that you're at least able to cope? Because people with comorbidities that are least likely to come out the other side, or to come out with some serious— not always, it's a part of it's a genetic thing. But also, let's be proactive again. Let's take your vitamin D on full load. Let's look at the, you know, magnesium and vitamin C's at the school. It's a simple, easy things that we can do to boost our immunity, it's lower stress levels, it's try and do all of it. Then we might, if we are unlucky enough to get hit with it, maybe we'll be able to come out the other side without, you know, dying or having some long-term consequences. Hopefully. Where is that conversation?

Russell: Well, sadly, Lis, we're not having that conversation. The simple reason for that, and I don't want to sound sceptical, but it possibly may, there's no money in healthy people. But there's a lot of money, there's a lot of money to be made, when your population is unwell and sick. And unfortunately, we're fighting big, big organisations that make a lot of money when people are unwell.

Lisa: Yeah, that's just the truth. When you're on a, even a blood pressure medication or something like that, that you're on for life, that's a hell of a lot better than them giving you something that actually might fix it and you're off it in two weeks' time. That's why there's no money going into antivirals, medications and things because you'll be on it for a couple of weeks, and then it's over. So they can't really make money. Well, they can't make money out of repurposing drugs that are off-patent. You know, get into the bloody weeds on that stuff.

I think what's important for us to do is just to shine a light on the positive things that we have been through and be proactive. And be aware that there are forces at play that are not always got your best interests at heart, not to just accept whatever is dished up to you. Go and do your own research. Go and talk to this. Listen to the scientists. Listen to people who are really educated in the space. That's not me and it's not you. But I listen to the people who are at the top of this game, and then I make my decisions over what I do. We won't always get it right. But make your own mind up and be responsible for your own as best you can. There'll always be a left-field thing. The shingles came out of me even though I'm on all the right things and doing the right things. Because probably I've got too much stress in my life. And I take accountability for that and trying to mitigate that which I'm trying to do.

Russell: My summary to all of that is with your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.

Lisa: Always, always. Hey, Russell, you've been absolutely magnificent. I want to have you back on. I'd love to talk to your wife about her journey too at some point because yeah, really excited to meet you to have you on the show. It's been a real honour. Another you know, like-minded person, keep fighting the battle. Right?

Russell: That's it, it's been great. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa: And where do people go to if they want to find out more about you, what you do?

Russell: The best place to just go to my website where you can understand what I do, what I've done, who I work with, and how you can connect and it's just www.russelljarrett.com.au

Lisa: www.russelljarrett.com.au. We'll put that in the show notes people. Check it out and we'll see you on the other side.

That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.