Second Nature

Second Nature Listener Survey: https://surveymars.com/q/inCNkLas9

Gary Vernon, Scott King, and Aimee Ross have been building what is now one of the most significant mountain bike destinations in the world. What started in 2006 as a five-mile trail system in Bentonville, Arkansas has grown into 600 miles of trail across the region, 1,200 miles statewide, and most recently, a lift-access bike park with its own chairlift, restaurant, and membership model.

In this conversation, they walk through the design principles that made it work: building for beginners first, focusing on progression, and the decision to build within city limits rather than isolating trails on private land. They also break down the economics of trail building compared to traditional recreational infrastructure, what it actually took to build a 38-trail bike park in under two years, and the advice they give every community that calls asking "how do we become the next Bentonville"...which is, simply, don't try.

Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo:

Popfly: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com

Show Notes:

Scott King: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-scott-king-9991a4/

Aimee Ross: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aimeeross/

Gary Vernon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-vernon-ii-58253a7/

Tom Walton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-walton-40b9792ba/

OZ Bike Park: https://oztrailsbikepark.com/

OZ Trails: https://www.oztrails.com/

Discovery Loop: https://www.visitbentonville.com/blog/stories/post/ride-the-loop-bentonvilles-scenic-bike-route/

IMBA: https://www.imba.com/

Transform Your Community (Gary's TED Talk): https://youtu.be/yXJkWIeNP6g?si=p8frsQWhW7CzqJnB

IMBA TrailLab: https://www.imba.com/trail-labs

Gravity Logic: https://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Cone valve suspension: https://dirtbikemagazine.com/cone-valve-suspension/

Sierra Nevada NA: https://sierranevada.com/brews/trail-pass-ipa

Triumph Daytona: https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/sport/daytona-660

The Design Way (Book): https://amzn.to/4zjfoMS

Marin Alpine Trail EXR (Aaron's Bike): https://marinbikes.com/collections/alpine-trail-e

Fun Stuff:

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

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Annijke Wade became an adaptive mountain biker in 2021 after a downhill accident left her with a spinal cord injury. Four years later, she's racing at events like SBT Gravel and Sea Otter Classic, running a nonprofit called Dirt Bound that develops para athletes, building a content strategy sophisticated enough to land her in a Meta Creator program, and already planning for goals she can't quite reveal yet for 2027 and 2028.

In this conversation, Annijke and Aaron dig into what's changed in adaptive mountain biking over the last five years, how she thinks about building a career that doesn't depend on race results or viral moments, and what it actually takes to convince race organizers to include para athletes. They also get into her content strategy — from 822 followers to 10,000, the loop format, and working with Meta on creator growth — and what brands should look for when building long-term athlete partnerships.

Show Notes:

Annijke Wade: https://www.instagram.com/geodesicdome/

Bowhead Bikes: https://www.bowheadcorp.com/

Martyn Ashton: https://www.instagram.com/martynashton/

Rideable Now: https://www.rideablenow.com/

Rebecca's Private Idaho: https://www.rebeccasprivateidaho.com/

Annijke's Shreddit Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8_RpvGO6c

Dirt Bound: https://www.dirtboundcycling.com/

Dialed Creator Program: https://www.skool.com/dialedcreator/about

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Lael Wilcox: https://www.instagram.com/laelwilcox/

Matador - refillable toothpaste: https://www.matadorequipment.com/products/refillable-toothpaste-tubes

Ozlo Sleepbuds: https://ozlosleep.com/

TRTL Neckwrap: https://amzn.to/4pVM8Y0

Any One Of Us (Film): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kKJdHMJJJU

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

#podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business

Jill Nazeer is the brand marketing manager at Salsa Cycles and one of the most experienced athlete and content marketers in the bike industry. Before Salsa, she was at Diamondback during one of the most interesting periods in mountain bike content history: when Seth from Berm Peak was just a guy with a cool YouTube channel, and Eric Porter was figuring out what adventure content could look like. She helped build what became one of the most effective creator rosters in the industry, almost by accident.

In this conversation, Jill walks through what she learned about athlete marketing at Diamondback, how Salsa's relationship with parent company QBP gives them an unusual data advantage in the industry, and why she spent two years making penny farthing jokes before becoming a true believer in 32-inch wheels. She also gets into what brands get wrong about the DTC vs. bike shop debate, why the bike shop still matters more than most people think, and the Columbia Flat Earther campaign — which might be the most creative brand marketing move of the year.

Show Notes:

Jill Nazeer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-nazeer-a05b554/

Salsa Cycles: https://www.salsacycles.com/

Eric Porter: https://www.youtube.com/@PorterMTB

Berm Peak: https://www.youtube.com/@SethsBikeHacks

Mike Hopkins - Dream Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn1dcZTSAzk

Micayla Gatto: https://www.instagram.com/micaylagatto/

QBP: https://www.qbp.com/

Surly: https://surlybikes.com/

Salsa Fargo 32: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/fargo-32

Unbound Gravel: https://www.unboundgravel.com/

Wanderosa: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/wanderosa

SENIQ on Second Nature: https://youtu.be/LUkiabROzdg

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Columbia Expedition Impossible: https://www.columbia.com/expedition-impossible.html

Backcountry Slickrock Kit: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/1G2WPB

Wild Rye: https://wild-rye.com/

Shredly: https://shredly.com/

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

#podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business

Tina and Madison started SENIQ after nearly a decade building careers at Victoria's Secret and Backcountry — and it turns out the most important lessons they carried into their brand came from a lingerie company, not an outdoor retailer. Growing up in a world where women sat on every leadership team and product innovation was the quarterback of the business shaped how they think about building SENIQ from the ground up.

In this conversation, the co-founders of SENIQ walk through the full story — writing their business plan on a template they found online, moving into their parents' basements in Columbus, Ohio to launch, and trusting their gut to launch a ski collection six months in, despite every mentor telling them not to. They also get into how low-res iPhone content consistently outperformed expensive campaign shoots, why co-founders who disagree on everything make better brands, and how to figure out which voices to ignore when you're building something nobody has built before.

Second Nature is proudly supported by:

Halo: https://poweredbyhalo.com/

Popfly (for brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Popfly (for creators): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Show Notes:

Tina Thompson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinathompson/

Madison Hilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-hilson/

SENIQ: https://seniqbrand.com/

Backcountry: https://www.backcountry.com

Business Plan Template: https://offers.hubspot.com/business-plan-template

SENIQ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seniq

Mattie Sims on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJl441qcZLk

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Primally Pure Deodorant: https://primallypure.com/

Gorpgirls x Oboz: https://obozfootwear.com/pages/oboz-x-gorp-girls

Never Slept - Nike Knicks Ad: https://www.instagram.com/reels/DZjR_dosb9x/

Dream Crazier - Nike Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfX5jeF6k4

Garmin 970: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/L0rY60

Detours With Valentina: https://valentinathompson.substack.com/

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

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Tommie Runz started running in 2018, a year after choosing sobriety, and began documenting the journey simply because it felt good to share progress and get encouragement. Seven years later, he's built an audience of over 30,000 through nothing but consistency and honesty — no viral moments, no big follower jumps, just a steady climb built entirely on trust.

In this conversation, Tommie and Aaron pick up where they left off after a live panel at TrailCon, digging into what it actually looks like to build a career as an athlete-creator without compromising who you are. Tommie breaks down why he's turned down "ambassador" deals that undervalue creators, how relationships with brands often take years rather than emails to develop, and the moment he realized his content needed to sound exactly like him or it wasn't worth doing at all.

Second Nature is supported by Popfly:

Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Show Notes:

Tommie Runz: https://www.tommierunz.com/

Tommie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Tommie_Runz

Tommie on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Tommie_Runz

PR Project (Podcast): https://www.youtube.com/c/PRProject/videos

Asics: https://www.asics.com/

Mack Baker (Asics): https://www.linkedin.com/in/mack-baker-b6218717/

Cosign Creatives: https://cosignmag.com/cosign-creative-agency/

Tommie Runz Show (Podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tommie-runz-show/id1538233660

Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/

Tommie on Freetrail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7lJd4t12a8

TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Currently: https://currentlyrunning.com/

Best Running Podcasts: https://bestrunningpodcasts.com/

Precision Fuel & Hydration: https://www.precisionhydration.com/

Aaronnomics: https://www.instagram.com/aaronnomics/

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

Steve Holmberg and Matt Trappe are back for a debrief on one of the biggest weeks in trail running — Broken Arrow, Western States, and everything in between at TrailCon. Steve breaks down his state-of-the-industry analysis: why trail running's rebrand from "ultra running" unlocked massive new participation, why the sport is about to fragment the way mountain biking did decades ago, and why brands chasing "max" specs are about to pivot to "right" specs built specifically for trail.

Then Matt takes listeners inside a project few people got to experience firsthand — a house in Tahoe built with Skratch and other partners, designed to bring brand leaders, athletes, and creators together without competitive walls. He explains the intention behind it, what happened when 37 of 40 people in the room spoke up during an unscripted conversation, and why some of the best moments of the week happened specifically because they weren't being recorded.

Show Notes:

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Steve Holmberg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenholmberg/

Matt Trappe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-trappe/

Insight Accelerator: https://insight-accelerator.com/

Matter of Brand: https://amatterofbrand.substack.com/

TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com

Tommie Runz: https://www.instagram.com/tommie_runz/

Salomon TV - Trail Dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05sUhlxFBk0

Salomon TV - Bill Dooper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF8ZdwpnTLQ

WSJ on Trail Runners: https://www.wsj.com/style/fashion/trail-running-footwear-9d39a2c6

Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/

ACG: https://www.nike.com/acg

Freetrail: https://www.freetrail.com

Tantrums: https://tantrums.run/

Amazfit: https://us.amazfit.com/

Skratch: https://www.skratchlabs.com/

SF Run Co: https://store.sfrunco.com/

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Hilary Yang "Raise The Bar": https://www.thehilaryann.com/raise-the-bar

Marin Rift Zone EL XR: https://marinbikes.com/products/2025-rift-zone-el-xr-int

Golden Hour Racing Shirt: https://auteursportif.com/collections/golden-hour-racing-capsule

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

Matt Oesterle built his first company, Callisto Media, from zero to $85 million in revenue by using data to disrupt the book publishing industry. Then he sold it to Penguin Random House and asked himself: what's the next industry that hasn't been forced to evolve? The answer was camping — an industry whose biggest brands were founded in the 1960s and haven't changed much since.

In this conversation, Matt walks through the framework he uses to pick businesses, how he designed the Ramble campground experience from scratch, and what it takes to build a hospitality brand that maintains a 4.98-star review score while scaling to 100+ locations. He also gets into the role of data versus instinct in entrepreneurship, why type two fun is a hiring requirement for his team, and why you don't have to be a sociopath to build something great.

If you've ever looked at an industry and thought "someone should fix this" — this is the episode for you.

Show Notes:

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Popfly for Athletes: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Matt Oesterle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oesterle/

Ramble Campgrounds: https://ramble.camp/

Next Ventures: https://www.nextventures.com/

Mel Strong on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcjUzrM3Jg

Callisto Media: https://www.sourcebooks.com/callisto

HipCamp: https://www.hipcamp.com/

Net Promoter Score (Term): https://www.qualtrics.com/articles/customer-experience/net-promoter-score/

Solo Stove: https://www.solostove.com/

Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/

The Everything Store (Book): https://amzn.to/4vpM8kx

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

RAB: https://rab.equipment/

The Algorithm (Book): https://amzn.to/4aOzKTJ

MFM Pod - The Algorithm Author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG4TwQEYdBY

New Yorker Profile - Sam Altman: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted

***

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

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Martyn Ashton spent two decades as one of the most influential trials riders in the world — making the smallest, most niche discipline of mountain biking accessible and exciting for a global audience through videos, shows, and a personality that made everyone feel like they could try it. In 2013, a crash during a stunt show left him paralyzed. Now he's doing the exact same thing all over again — this time for adaptive mountain biking.

In this conversation, Martyn walks through the founding of Rideable Now, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to helping people with disabilities and life-changing injuries access adaptive mountain bikes. He explains why modern adaptive bikes aren't a watered-down version of mountain biking — they're genuinely terrifying, capable machines that unlock every trail in the world for people who never thought they'd ride again. He also gets into the economics of £25,000 bikes, why the e-bike power race could go too far, and the moment he gave away Rideable Now's first complete bike to a father of three who had no idea it was coming.

Show Notes:

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Popfly for Athletes: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Martyn Ashton: https://www.instagram.com/martynashton/

Rideable Now: https://www.rideablenow.com/

Bowhead Bikes: https://www.bowheadcorp.com/

Cole Bernier: https://www.instagram.com/cbreezyrides/

Annijke Wade: https://www.instagram.com/geodesicdome/

Random Tandem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onoeq45G6ec

Dirty Tricks and Cunning Stunts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd3n8-0tuHU

GMBN: https://www.gmbn.com/

Rideable Now Membership: https://www.rideablenow.com/join

Disabled Dad Of Three: https://www.instagram.com/disableddadof3/

High Fives Foundation: https://highfivesfoundation.org/

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

Topeak Digital Tire Pump: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/DWBMvq

Stashed Spacerail (10% discount link): https://www.stashedproducts.com/superrider

***

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

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Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

Ross McGraw has had one of the more interesting career arcs in the outdoor industry — from Nike's NYC Run program to Vice Media and Viacom, to helping build Hammerhead through its acquisition by SRAM, and now leading commercial efforts at CORE, the company changing how elite athletes think about heat.

In this conversation, Ross breaks down the science of heat training in plain language — why 80% of the energy athletes generate is thermal, how heat zones work, and why the world's best cyclists and runners are training in heat suits before major races. He also gets into what it felt like to go from being a cog in a media machine to betting on himself in sports tech, why triathlon taught him more about business than any corporate job, and how to know when you're doing the "social run" version of your career.

Show Notes:

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Popfly for Athletes/Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Ross McGraw: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rossmcgraw/

CORE: https://corebodytemp.com/

CORE Heat Suit: https://corebodytemp.com/products/core-suit

CORE Heat Zones: https://help.corebodytemp.com/en/articles/10447111-heat-zones

Hammerhead: https://shop.sram.com/pages/hammerhead

Zwift Bike: https://us.zwift.com/collections/equipment/products/zwift-ride-smart-frame

Wahoo Software Update: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/wahoo-elemnt-firmware-update-2026

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

World Cup - Adidas ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJJY53qhJe0

Breathe (Book): https://amzn.to/4eBoX0f

Respire Mouth Tape: https://respire.com/

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

Mattie Sims has built brands at Lululemon, Electronic Arts, Reef, and Rally Pickleball — and along the way developed a framework for brand building that most founders skip entirely. Now she's applying everything she's learned to two ventures at once: Courier, a performance sock brand built around the idea of the "Renaissance athlete," and Mate the Agency, a brand strategy firm working with founders across industries.

In this conversation, Mattie walks through the muse framework she learned at Lululemon and has refined across every role since — why the most important question isn't "who buys this product" but "what is this person worried about when their head hits the pillow at night." She also gets into why looking branded is not the same as having a brand, what happened when Rally discovered their customers weren't there for pickleball, and why having her son was the thing that finally convinced her she could be an entrepreneur.

Plus: why niching down is the thing every founder is most afraid of, how Courier is building a cultural movement around versatile excellence, and the Red Bull receptionist whose casual suggestion became a billion-dollar product strategy.

Popfly For Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators

Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands

Show Notes:

Mattie Sims: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeline-sims-83385823/

Courier Socks: http://couriersocks.com/

Mate The Agency: https://www.matetheagency.com/

Rally Pickleball: https://www.rallypickleball.com/

Mate IG Carousel Link: https://www.instagram.com/p/DYW4_SVEU8b/

Carrie Rheaume (Mate agency co-founder): https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-rheaume-6376521a8/

Matt Sims: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-sims-9b716450/

Gartner Hype Cycle: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwerner/2024/07/18/the-trough-of-disillusionment-and-four-outliers-on-the-gartner-hype-cycle/

Morgan Tuohy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-tuohy/

Dera: https://rundera.com/

Ryan Thrower: https://www.instagram.com/ryanthrower/

BPC - Brand, Product, Content:

Seniq: https://seniqbrand.com/

Summer Edition - Red Bull: https://www.redbull.com/us-en/energydrink/products/red-bull-summer-edition

Billy Oppenheimer's newsletter: https://billyoppenheimer.com/

Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media

Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature

Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media

Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia