In this episode, Craig Dalton and Justin Bowes reflect on the lead-up to the Unbound Gravel 200 race, sharing insights into the unique training approach adopted to prepare for the challenging event. They discuss the strategic training block, the importance of quality over quantity, utilizing power meters for training effectiveness, and the significance of recovery in a compressed time frame. The conversation dives into the pivotal four-day mini camp, highlighting the benefits of stacking workload and the nuances of balancing intervals and endurance rides. 

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Key themes include strategically structuring training around time constraints, leveraging prior endurance experience, the impact of power meter training, optimizing recovery for peak performance, and the mental challenges faced leading up to a formidable gravel race like Unbound.

Key Takeaways:

• Strategic training plans can be tailored effectively to accommodate time constraints and previous endurance experience.

• Balancing interval workouts with endurance rides is crucial for building strength and endurance for challenging events.

• Utilizing power meters can provide valuable insights into training progress and help optimize performance.

• Adequate recovery periods are essential for the body to absorb training load effectively, leading to improved performance.

• Mental preparation and breaking down the race into manageable segments can help athletes.

Transcript:

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome back to the show,

[00:00:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.

[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Post Unbound. We did it.

[00:00:07] - (): Justin Bowes: That's right. You did it. Yeah, you did it a big way.

[00:00:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I appreciate you coming on board and being my muse to help me tell my story. I feel like you were an integral part of my life for a while this year.

**** - (): In our last episode, we talked about kind of what the run up to my non cycling related vacation looked like. And maybe we pick up the story post that vacation.

[00:00:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Yeah, it was, we discussed on the, on the first pod that, we, we were having a little bit uncharacteristic buildup, um, not only because you had some, prior work, obligations with, as far as travel, but we were starting quite late, um, as well.

**** - (): So we had to, be a little creative in how we wanted to, to approach your training. So, right when you were, uh, leaving, we had really built up your training load, um, because obviously we knew that you were going to be leaving and you're gonna have time off the bike. You weren't gonna be.

**** - (): Completely immobile. I mean, you were, we're going to be able to, do some running and walking and some lifting and, and, um, a few stationary bike sessions in there and things like that, but it's not the most ideal unbound training, especially when you're training for the 200 and. We're only a couple months into it or, a couple of months out from it, I should say.

**** - (): And so, uh, the thought behind, how I wanted to structure your training was to take advantage of the, the, the amount of time that you did not have to train. And so where a traditional buildup would have multiple big ride days on the weekends, um, not only that, but then also, during the week, You would have your meat and potato interval session, but also bookend it with some big endurance rides on the front and the back end of it, but you just didn't have that available to you.

**** - (): So, um, I needed to make sure that we were going to take advantage of not only the lack of time that you had available to you, but also you're, you're no stranger to endurance, um, athletics. So you had a background that I could work with. And that makes all the difference. If you were just coming to me off the street and say, Hey, can you get me ready?

**** - (): And less than four months, for a 200 mile gravel race, the hardest 200 mile gravel race in the world. It would, that would be a different story, but thankfully you, you had some background in endurance, so it wasn't. A foreign concept to your body.

[00:02:48] - (): Craig Dalton: It was interesting in my training block leading up to Cuba because we really didn't do a lot of meaningfully long rides, but I also understood like, I'd never really done meaningful intervals before.

**** - (): And clearly like the workouts you were prescribing to me that were one hour in duration. Pretty tired afterwards. Like I felt like I really gassed myself because now that we're looking at a power meter and we're really saying it's not like perceived level of exertion. It's like, here's the exertion you need to achieve.

**** - (): Um, and it was really, I mean, frankly, it was like, I was burying myself on a lot of those workouts, which was very different than anything I'd been done doing in the, the decade before, to be honest.

[00:03:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Right. And I mean, it's, it's the old adage, quality over quantity. And again, I, I keep coming back to, the time crunch.

**** - (): I mean, that's what we were up against. And so I really wanted to make sure that, the lead up to your trip to Cuba, but then also once you get back, we added enough low to you. to your training so that, um, the break was needed. And so your body would be able to absorb all of that load while you're gone because, yes, you would still be active, but you weren't training.

**** - (): And so it allowed your body to recover from all that. And by the way, Um, Craig did an amazing job, um, of hitting all of his workouts. Like, I want to say there's less than a handful that were just kind of like, didn't nail them perfectly, but it wasn't for the lack of trying by any means. Um, and so, um, with that, and you brought up the point too, it's just like, you've never trained with power before, and so there was just, that was just another element to the training that we had to kind Yeah. implement. It wasn't like, Oh yeah, I've been training for years with power. So I know what my zones are and why and all of that. So kind of helping coach you through, the use of the power meters and, and the importance of that.

**** - (): I think it gave us a really good detailed picture of where the training was going and you could see. Yeah. and ultimately feel, yourself getting stronger, after each week, things just got better and better and better. So once you got back into the country, then it was time to start, we'll continue on the interval workouts, but we're going to start introducing, the longer sessions as well.

[00:05:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. And I remember like I definitely felt tired when I left for that week off, um, and unfortunately not incredibly refreshed after my quote unquote vacation, because there's a lot of running around with the family, but coming back and looking at the training calendar, we had a couple of things up in the air, but we knew like that next six weeks was going to be a big build of long rides, endurance rides, and continuing on some of the interval work.

[00:05:47] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And so, had, had things been different as far as scheduling of the trip and things like that, we may have flipped the script a little bit and did all of your big rides be, on the front end, and then do all the more structured training, the higher, shorter, sharper stuff on the back end.

**** - (): But I just felt like with your background and what we wanted to accomplish with Unbound, um, it was better for us to, to stack those. shorter, sharper workouts on the front end and then give yourself time to relax or, absorb. And then once you came back and we figured out, some pieces as far as like, Hey, when can we get out and do back to back big rides?

**** - (): And I want to talk about that too, because I think it was really important, um, in the buildup, um, for the race, um, those, those four days of just, some really good rides, but it, it, it, It was working and from my standpoint, I could see, the fatigue building, but your recovery was also taking, it was, it was working as well, and so it was like, we'd stack the work on you.

**** - (): But then the recovery days were structured so that, those. again, your body absorbs that work. And the cool thing with watching you is he can, you, Craig, he can handle a lot of work, so I'd be looking at your workouts, every day. And I'm like, he's, he's doing this, like he's actually absorbing all this workload.

**** - (): And that's where it was really starting to fuel my confidence. And what you were going to be able to, um, accomplish at Unbound was, not only is he nailing all these workouts, but he's also recovering on the backside of it too. And that was just, again, it was fueling my confidence for you to egg you on to say, Craig, you can do this.

**** - (): Like we're in a really good position. And I didn't want to get down into all the weeds with you as far as like what I was seeing, right? Right. Because ultimately it's just like, I just want Craig, you to understand you can do this. So it was really cool from my standpoint to see.

[00:08:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting. As you talk about, like, if, if we had given more time that you might've done the longer rides earlier and then that kind of high performance stuff later, right.

**** - (): I kind of feel like I might've struggled with confidence With that approach, even though like, obviously I would've had massive workouts six weeks back.

[00:08:24] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, yeah. . But I

[00:08:25] - (): Craig Dalton: kind of, I kind of like the, the idea that we were progressively testing me Yes. On these harder and harder weekends towards the end.

**** - (): Right?

[00:08:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I, and definitely by design , but at the same time it, it, it worked out, I think, better than I even. had hoped for because, again, in theory and on paper, I'm looking at what I want you to do, but ultimately it's what can your body and, now that we're getting deeper into it, what can your mind and your body do?

**** - (): Handle. And so that's where, that's where, the coaching science and the coaching art kind of, blur the lines together of like, okay, this is what I expect him to be able to do, but this is what I'm seeing him, doing. And it's just, it's a really cool kind of blend of, the science and the art coming together.

**** - (): And again, it just stokes my confidence. And hopefully that comes across in my communication with you is like, I'm really excited. I can see this happening. And this is why I believe that you're going to be able to, perform this, um, crazy, crazy event. So

[00:09:39] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I think what was good for both of us was knowing that, and I'd said to you early on, knowing that I kind of put myself and you behind the eight ball starting late.

**** - (): Yes. But that, I had this, I could make a four day. Kind of mini camp whenever we needed it in May as like this option to really kind of do some big volume.

[00:10:01] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And that was, that kind of gave me, that was kind of one of those moments of like, okay, good, at least. We, we, we've got it to where, it's in our back pocket.

**** - (): I've got that card to play. Um, it's going to lend itself really well. And, fortunately it was, you were really flexible on, when that could actually happen. And that, that definitely makes a, a big impact because, within the month of an event like, the 200.

**** - (): Like, we can't miss days. We can't, there's like no makeup days or anything. And each day is just that much more important for the next and the next and the next, and. Um, yeah, having you be able to go out and just knock out these four days of, big rides and, when we were talking about how we were going to do that, when a lot of, I don't want to say a lot, when, when most people have that kind of that opening of like, Hey, I'm going to do a, a mini camp, whether it's a long, four day weekend or in the middle of the week, however it works out, they're so excited to go and put in the big miles, they're, they've got free time.

**** - (): They've got the, the hall pass to go and just train. That's awesome. That's great. But the biggest mistake made by most people that do that is. They go out and do a seven or eight hour ride, on day one, and they're not used to that. And on day two, day three, they're just like, yeah, two hours here, three hours there, whatever.

**** - (): And if that, because they just completely blew themselves to the moon on day one and weren't ready for that. And so, so I prescribed to you that we'll just stair step ourself into the, into that block so that. We get the most bang for our buck out of that, that mini block of training. And. It worked.

**** - (): It worked well.

[00:12:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that was definitely a critical weekend for me. I think I rode four hours kind of mixed terrain with a buddy of mine on Thursday, four, maybe five hours on Friday and then eight and a half or nine on Saturday and followed up by two or three on Sunday.

[00:12:21] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, that was, again, it was, it was a big, um, big chunk of time in the saddle.

**** - (): Um, and it was a big, um, bite on your end. I mean, to take, to, to put in that much time, but again, it just, it, it just speaks to the training that we did leading into it helped. your body absorb those big days. And once you, once you came out of that, to me, like I didn't want to, I didn't want to like pile on just like the raw, raw cheerleader, like, Oh my God, he's going to do this sort of thing.

**** - (): I, I was, I was, I internally, like on this side of the screen, I was like, hell yeah. Like this is, this is going to work. Like he, he's going to He's going to do okay at this.

[00:13:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I think I got a hell yeah. In the comments and training peaks,

[00:13:15] - (): Justin Bowes: you probably did. Yeah,

[00:13:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's sad. I think that for me, that Saturday ride was the one that I reflected on, on game day, because it was 10, 000 feet plus of climbing in.

**** - (): Very, very challenging terrain. Like in fact, like I forgot, cause I don't go so far north as much like coming across pine mountain and up San Geronimo Ridge, things that the locals around here might understand, like it was just super rocky and this was like six, seven hours into the day that I hit just these trails that I just forgot how steep they are and how rocky they are.

**** - (): So when I came home from that. And was able to get on the bike the next day. I was like, okay, like it was only 77 miles and I'm doing a 200 mile race, but I did the elevation and I can guarantee some of those miles were a lot harder to come by than what I'd experienced in Kansas.

[00:14:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um, I mean, just quickly for the listeners, just kind of given, give them some numbers behind the, uh, that particular ride.

**** - (): I'll, I'll preface this by saying, even the professionals in the 200, they're not going to be able to go out and mimic. an exact 200 mile, day. And so it's just, it's just, that's a big day for anybody. And so if you can get in, for you, we're, we're targeting, like, we had the kind of the, um, beat the sun, uh, goal.

**** - (): Hey, I'd like to get in, under 15 hours, just a couple, just high level. This is kind of what I want to do. So when you were able to clock in at over eight and a half hours in the saddle with, over 10, 000 feet of climbing. And coming in with a TSS of over 400 in under 80 miles, that's a big day.

**** - (): And you're right. It's it's it, of course it's not, a hundred miles or even 125 miles or anything like that. Like, most people will, who do the 200 who have serious training behind them. They're going to be pushing that 150 mile, training day on one of, on their last big.

**** - (): Uh, training block, but you being able to get out there and produce the power that you did, the load that you were able to accumulate and the efficiency. I should note, the efficiency factor that you were able to, um, uh, complete this ride in again, it was just like, it's just pure gold in the bank, like, not even cash, like gold, like, it's solid, it's, it's, it's tangible, like, he's going to be able to reflect on this ride when things maybe get a little dark in Kansas and be able to say, I, Look what I did.

**** - (): Like, I can do that. And so when you have a ride like that, Craig, it's, it's, it's really good. Um, and it's, it's hard to quantify from a coaching perspective to an athlete until they actually do it of like what that truly means, um, to the end goal.

**** - (): Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important

[00:16:24] - (): Craig Dalton: to have those just tough tough days to reflect back on and put in the bank and I feel like when I, when I got to Kansas, I had sort of maybe a 90 percent confidence interval on my ability to complete the event. I knew, as you said before, I knew that I had Done everything that was asked of me pretty put a pretty solid effort in, but there was always that little bit in my mind saying, like, I've never ridden in Kansas.

**** - (): I don't know what the terrain's like, and I've certainly never ridden more than 130 miles. Right?

[00:17:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. And that brings up an interesting, question that I don't know. I've, I don't think I've posed to you since to to unbound, but like, mentally. That week leading into it, where was your head at? Like you, you've touched on like, Hey, I've never ridden in Kansas.

**** - (): I've never ridden the 200 miles, kind of speak to, mentally where, where you were at leading into the race that like that week of.

[00:17:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think it was a little bit all over the place. Like I started seeing footage of the actual terrain and I started actually, let me step back for a second.

**** - (): They talked about the North course being chunky. And when I think about chunky, I think about where I ride at home, but I realized in retrospect, it's chunky at home, but 15 percent grades

[00:17:50] - (): Justin Bowes: and

[00:17:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Kansas chunky is chunky, but 6 percent grade, so it felt a lot different. Um, so that's a point on the chunkiness.

**** - (): And then second, I started to see some of the more, um, minimum a maintenance roads and they had these great dual tracks that. We're pretty hard pack. Yeah. And I was, I was definitely conscious that conditions could change and good God, if you were in the Facebook group, the, the amount of meteorologists that came out of the woodwork was pretty insane that week leading in, but there's definitely some rain on the calendar.

**** - (): Right. Yeah.

[00:18:23] - (): Justin Bowes: No, I just felt like I may have oversold, um, the northbound course as being as chunky and technical, um, but I think, I'd rather you go in. With a higher level of like, Oh, okay.

**** - (): This could be pretty rough. Um, as opposed to, Oh yeah, the North course is fine. Yeah, it gets chunky in sections, overall it's fine. But then you get there and you're like, Whoa, I was, you did not warn me about this. You did not, my expectation was down here. And now it's like, what is happening?

**** - (): I

[00:18:55] - (): Craig Dalton: think what it left you with, Justin was just an awareness of. This could go wrong for my equipment if I'm not careful. And I'll get into a little bit once we start talking about the ride itself, like how I rode the race.

[00:19:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um,

[00:19:11] - (): Craig Dalton: but once I got to, I, I got out to Kansas on Wednesday night, got to Emporia on Thursday, did my first group shakeout ride for 15 miles on Thursday, actually in the rain.

**** - (): Um, Start, it was nice to just get the bike on the dirt out there and start to get a sense for it. You start to understand, in any grid shaped race or race course, the 90 degree corners are what you have to be aware of because Right, while you may have good dual tracks when you're coming around a corner, it, it can be very much marbley, kind of gravel in the middle.

**** - (): So it was good to sort of just. Test the cornering a little bit, so to speak.

[00:19:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's, yeah, a lot of gravel races. You just have that natural, flow of the course and, and everything, but yeah, out in Emporia, it truly is. a hard right, a hard left, and, and, if you get out of that line, um, or, you, you find yourself, drifting out of that corner or out of the race line and into the, the, the sides of the course.

**** - (): Yeah. It can get, it can get pretty chunky and it's, and not only that or loose too, but not only that is just the amount of. Shrapnel being thrown up at you, with that, that many cyclists, on a course, um, yeah, it's, it's tough.

[00:20:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So then Friday I hooked up with the, my, my crew in the house.

**** - (): I was staying with shout out to Doug Bucko and Phil. Uh, we did a little ride in the town we were staying in and then I went into the, um, the meat, mandatory media event. Yeah. That lifetime was holding, and it was interesting because I did glean some perspective there as well, because they talked about how they felt like the first 28 miles of this race was going to be incredibly fast and actually that turned out to be a useful tidbit.

**** - (): Um, After the race started, so we can talk about that in a little bit, but I sort of, I did a little ride on Friday, felt good. The equipment felt dialed in retrospect. I sort of had tire size envy a little bit because it was weird because I normally ride like a 47 at home. And, um, we talked about this early on.

**** - (): You're a big fan of the IRC Boken and the biggest they come in is a 42. And I was like, well, I'm riding my titanium unicorn. I've got a front suspension fork. Like I don't need all that volume. And it, it seemed interesting to me to kind of go to something a little bit faster rolling potentially. But the big tire guy in me, when all the pros were talking about running 50 started to get a little bit jealous.

[00:21:55] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so personal. Like, um, yeah, I can give you my recommendations and, what I've seen work, for myself and other athletes and competitors and things like that, but it's, it's, yeah, it really comes down to your comfort level of, You know what you, what you, what you can ride and what feels good underneath you and, and things like that.

**** - (): And I, yeah, I'm, I'm all about my IRC tires, but at the same time, yeah, I couldn't help but be a little like,

[00:22:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Hmm,

[00:22:28] - (): Justin Bowes: 50 would be pretty nice, and I did

[00:22:30] - (): Craig Dalton: talk to the IRC guys and they said, Hey, the guys are from Japan are here. Yeah. And I'm making them listen to all these pros who are talking about fifties.

[00:22:39] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[00:22:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So I feel like, like Thursday, Friday was all going swimmingly. And then through like being part of a larger group, my dinner on Friday night, we didn't end up sitting down to like maybe seven 30 or eight. Yeah, which is later than we had all intended by a few hours, right? I had been drinking a bunch of electrolyte stuff that I had picked up in the the expo area and For whatever reason and I don't really think I wasn't really in my head about the race because I was very kind of just at peace with Where I was at and what was going to unfold was going to unfold Friday night.

**** - (): I had a horrible night's sleep. I had a headache. I just kind of couldn't go down, which definitely rattled me, getting up at 4 30 AM to start eating on Saturday morning.

[00:23:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's tough. Um, yeah, it's, especially when you're with a group of people at a big race like that and, Emporia, I mean, they do an amazing job trying to absorb.

**** - (): Influx of what, uh, 12, 000 plus people with support staff and racers. And, but yeah, with dining options being as limited as they are, um, and then trying to, get a group to dinner or prepare dinner, whatever that case may be. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tough. And. I'm, I'm of the belief, I've always had this, in the school of thought of, it's not the night before, it's two nights before, um, as far as like your most important rest, um, and, recovery time and things like that, because even if, Craig, even if everything went perfect on Friday night, The enormity of what you're about to do on Saturday morning will keep you from having a restful night's sleep, it's just, yeah, maybe, maybe you fell asleep a little bit quicker, but, just knowing that, oh, my gosh, I got to get up at 430.

**** - (): I've got to have, double check this triple check that. I've got to start eating like immediately. I got to, make sure, everything's functioning. And so it's even with the best laid plans, it's always going to be, um, um, a rough night. So, but, again, objectively looking at it.

**** - (): And I think I shared with you on our call the other day was, if somebody just tossed this file in front of me. Um, and just said, Hey, tell me what you think, without any context or knowing who it was or anything like that. It's like, this guy had a great race and it was indicative of, um, again, I think just your confidence of, being prepared and knowing it is what it is at this point and yeah, you, strapped in and got to work.

**** - (): So.

[00:25:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I felt great about my equipment going in. I spent way more time thinking about hydration and nutrition than I ever had before, and I was, I was really jazzed with the way the First Endurance EPO Pro High Carb Drink worked for me. So to give some perspective, I used two 12 ounce bottles of the high carb drink, and then I had a use way backpack with water in it.

**** - (): And my plan was at every opportunity to refill those bottles. I would refill with the. The first endurance high carb mix that kind of annoyed maybe my, my compatriots a little bit. Cause I was like, Oh, I got to dump this powder in. And by the way, for any product designers out there, I need a product that will encapsulate a serving of first endurance.

**** - (): That's better than a plastic bag and faster to pour into

[00:26:24] - (): Justin Bowes: a bottle.

**** - (): So you felt like

**** - (): the,

**** - (): the first endurance high carb. That was. That was good for you.

[00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So I was using that, uh, trying to goal was to drink a bottle an hour and do Right. A goo or something in addition to it. So Right. Aiming around, I think 85 to 90 carbs an hour. Mm-Hmm. . And I had, I had trained on that on every one of my long rides.

**** - (): Exactly.

[00:26:48] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And some people will say, well that's on the low side now, but, um, and, and it. It is, but at the same time, if that's what you're training with and that's what your body's used to, and again, being able to get through all the training sessions the way you did, why, why change that, and, and try to like go all pro and be like, I'm getting 120, 130 grams, of carbs per hour.

**** - (): And then all of a sudden, you're two hours in and your body's like, I. Don't know what this means, and just let's just shut down on you. Um, you were, you were talking about, um, you touched on it really quick on, um, your bike and everything. Talk a little bit more about like the equipment that you did, end up using, for the race.

[00:27:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So I was using, it's basically my standard setup at home with the exception of, I was running 700 by 42 tires as IRC Bokens. Uh, as we mentioned before, I did have the RockShox suspension fork on there as well as a dropper post. I considered taking the dropper post off, um, because I didn't think it was going to be warranted, but I'm glad I did not.

**** - (): I'm glad I left it on.

[00:27:58] - (): Justin Bowes: Interesting.

[00:27:58] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. Part of that rationale was nothing new on game day philosophy. Um, but I, I can go on and on and on about dropper posts and in the context of unbound. It certainly enabled a heightened level of comfort during any of the technical sections. So little Egypt and right.

**** - (): Call reservation. And then oddly, like on the more, on the longer kind of just gentler downhills, it just allowed me to really get in sort of a chilled out yet arrow position.

[00:28:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:28:34] - (): Craig Dalton: So it, it, it turned out really well. And. Obviously there's like a slight weight penalty, uh, with it, but it just provides me so much comfort when I go downhill and so much confidence that, I was like, I'm just going to leave it on.

**** - (): And I'm totally glad I did.

[00:28:51] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. No, I, I don't think we talk much about droppers when it comes to, to unbound. I don't think that's like any, in any of the, like the hot topics it's, it's, it's all tires and and now that they've banned, arrow bars, from the pros and stuff. I mean, it's just like all the focuses, your, your number.

**** - (): Uh, holder now, so you can keep it flat and arrow and all of that. Um, and then your tires and, and wheel choice. Um, but yeah, dropper, like I think it makes a lot of sense, especially, just from a positioning standpoint. of just giving you your body a different position for that long of a period, because if you think about how being in a static cycling position for, 13, 14, 15 hours, being able to mix it up and know that you can, like you said, just have a little confidence boost and just like a different position for those descents.

**** - (): Taking some pressure off your lower back, off your hamstrings, the glutes, all of that. I mean, the little things like that really do add up, especially over that course of, that type of distance.

[00:30:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I do feel like at this moment I should, I should make one admission to my, my training progress.

**** - (): I will say like the one area, Justin, where I felt like I failed down and fell down when fortunately it didn't bite me in the ass is while I did do a ton of foam rolling, I wasn't as committed as I should have been to my foundation back exercises. Truth comes

[00:30:27] - (): Justin Bowes: out. Um, it's funny because I, like I doubled down on my foundation, uh, back exercises, the, the month leading into unbound, um, I've, I've always had a really strong back, um, partly from, swim background and everything.

**** - (): But, um, as we've gotten older, um, things are just a little bit, they make themselves a little bit more aware and a day like, unbound granted, I did the hundred, not the 200. Um, it's still, It adds up. And so I was just like, I'm doubling down on my, my foundation work. So instead of, a minimum of twice a week, I was doing it four plus times a week.

**** - (): And, um, I, I, I definitely felt a difference. Um, Just finishing and standing in the finish corral with everybody. And it was like, wow, I can actually like stand straight up, normally, normally you have that pre or post race kind of like slouch and slump and you're like, and have to like come back up to, um, vertical, uh, slowly.

**** - (): Um, but yeah, big time. So interesting that you mentioned that. Um,

[00:31:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So yeah, a hundred percent. It was not a recommendation to not do those things to anybody listening to what

[00:31:46] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig did on.

[00:31:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So talking about race day, I mean, so, we got, it was surprised, like it was very hassle free to kind of get to the start line.

**** - (): Yeah. Probably got there maybe a few minutes later than probably could have gotten further up in the Peloton if you, if you will.

[00:32:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:32:04] - (): Craig Dalton: If I got there a few minutes early, but we were there maybe 20 minutes early and we got right to the basically to the 14 hour flag, which is where we decided we were going to start.

**** - (): Cause it was important to me. I know from, from past experience, it's important for me to kind of get swept up and make miles when miles are easy. And so I was pretty adamant with the career that I was with that, like, for me, this was like an imperative. Like I, I definitely wanted to start there and ride in a big pack for a while.

[00:32:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And, we, we, we did touch on this, um, a little bit that, while you, you definitely need to be with your people, and be with those people that are going to, you. get you through those first, couple hours. Um, but be cautious of not getting swept up in the moment, of, of what Unbound is.

**** - (): And for, for anybody who's never been to Emporia on race day, um, I mean, it's a, it's a big deal and you, it's very easy to get caught up, even the days leading into the race of, Oh, we can go do another shakeout, right. Or let's spend five hours at the expo on our feet, because we're having so much fun and we're talking with everybody and things like that with, without much thought of like, Oh, by the way, the biggest race of your life is, two days away and you need to like, Chill and relax, but, um, I, I totally agree.

**** - (): Like, you, when. You have to take advantage of those easy miles. Um, with, with, with the caveat that, Hey, I don't want to get swept up and do too much too soon. But I also want to, as you say, make, make hay while the sun is shining. Right. Um, and, and put it away. So when things start to turn south a little bit, no pun intended, um, it's.

**** - (): It's you're further up and you're further along and you're feeling better than, had you been too conservative and held back.

[00:34:07] - (): Craig Dalton: And maybe, I mean, maybe because we couldn't get farther up, it was actually kind of a, the pace felt very pedestrian. The first 28 miles to me, like, I never, I never had to really, put in any meaningful effort to cruise.

**** - (): And I, I was watching some videos this last weekend about it. And a guy who had done it in 12 hours. And I saw the difference of what the 12 hour pace looked like in the 14 hour. And I was like, maybe if I'm like totally nitpicking my day out there, maybe I should have been up a little bit further, but there's something to be said for like, I definitely had a chill first 28 miles.

**** - (): And then. We hit, we hit the first technical section and it was interesting. I was definitely conscious of my equipment because I had weirdly, like I'd seen flats like barely out of town.

[00:34:59] - (): Justin Bowes: I was like,

[00:35:00] - (): Craig Dalton: God, I don't, I don't want to have a flat, there, people are flatting all over the place.

**** - (): We would hit these, the, uh, the technical descents and you'd sort of, You have to ride in one of the dual tracks. We're kind of the safest way there. And there was a little rocky kind of drop offs. Nothing too technical if you had a clean look at it, but as you were riding in a group, sometimes you're inevitably forced into a line that you wouldn't have opted into.

**** - (): I think that's where you risk, flatting or crashing.

[00:35:28] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I think that's where most people get in to the big trouble is, they try to, they try to switch those lanes. When they really shouldn't. Um, and that's, a couple of things, a lot of those dual track MMRs, we'll have like a, a big grass section down the center of it.

**** - (): Yeah. And the grass looks inviting, but it hides a lot of stuff in there, whether it's, a rut or a. Bigger, nastier rock that's been kicked out of the track into, it's just laying there. And so that's where I think people really make the mistake of like, Oh, this line's going faster on the left.

**** - (): So I'm going to hop from the right side to the left side or vice versa. And that's where the cuts happen. And the, even crashes just because they hit something that they weren't expecting and things like that.

[00:36:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that 100 percent started to be a necessity to do those cross lane jumps for me.

**** - (): Like, as we came out of the other side of the, the first technical section, like, you would just see one group moving up and another. Kind of fading back on a climb. And I was definitely conscious of that middle section. Like this is when it could go all wrong, you feel the need to kind of keep joining groups with forward momentum.

**** - (): And yes, I was very pleased that, um, my, my buddy Doug, Was right there with me. I had kind of no sense because I was just sort of focused on saying, with that group in the first 28 miles. And when we came through the technical section, it was great to see his enthusiastic face pull through. And I was like, this is awesome.

**** - (): Like, cause I, we hadn't written together, but once or twice. So it was great to see that. We could potentially spend a bunch of time together. So from mile 30 to mile a hundred, we were riding together and riding with groups. Um, it's interesting and unbound cause the amateurs can use arrow bars.

**** - (): So you would see these guys and girls who would kind of maybe go slower on the hills, but once you got on the downhill or a flat, they were happy to have a train of people behind them. And I was, I'm not ashamed to say I was taking advantage of that as much as possible.

[00:37:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Real quick, before I forget, um, I think on the first pod that we did, um, you were asking me about the climbs.

**** - (): Um, and, cause I had given you some description of like, punchy, um, death by a thousand cut because of just the, how many there were, succession and things like that now that you've done it, like what, what was your overall, um, Observation as far as like the climbing was concerned.

[00:38:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I mean, everything's so short relative to what I'm used to. And I knew that was going to be the case going in, but on the plus side, you can always, you can generally always see the top of them. So you kind of knew, and you could measure your, you could gauge your efforts. When I, I think about sort of towards mile a hundred, it started, we started to get to some that required a little bit more effort.

**** - (): And actually this was, One of the, probably the darkest mental moment I had was I kind of, I lost Doug's wheel. He caught some good wheels. I was behind someone, uh, who was not moving as efficiently and we kind of separated. And I, I thought to myself, I don't feel like I want to make this effort over the top of the hill to bridge this gap.

**** - (): But I was also staring down the barrel of like the one guy I know in this race is now riding away from me. Right. Um, there's a little bit of a dark moment there, but to your question about the hills, like, I was comforted that I could always see the top. I knew they were quite short relative to what I'm used to riding, and it was really a matter of, for me, there was maybe, I think, three times.

**** - (): I ended up getting off on the last 25 percent of a climb or last 15%. Okay. Because I gauged that I could do it, but I felt like I was going to go into the red too much. And it felt prudent to just hop off real quick and walk.

[00:39:32] - (): Justin Bowes: And that was, that was pretty late on though, right?

[00:39:35] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:36] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. It wasn't like mile 30 and you're like, okay, I'm going to start saving.

**** - (): Yeah.

[00:39:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Not at

[00:39:41] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Not

[00:39:42] - (): Craig Dalton: at

[00:39:42] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Yeah.

[00:39:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So it was interesting. I was, I, there was a lot of mental gymnastics between mile 100 and one 48, which was the, the second checkpoint for us. Cause I had lost Doug. Um, it was starting to get hot. It was just. I talked to a few people and you probably mentioned the same thing to me.

**** - (): Like you can't think of the totality of the 200 miles you have to do. You really just need to break it down into chunks. Yep. Right. So I started really thinking about, um, our crew chief, Phil, who was a godsend out there. He had such great. Support for us at the aid station. We had an easy up. He had everything imaginable.

**** - (): I knew he had bottles on ice for me. So I jokingly referred to miles 100 to 1 48 as project Phil.

[00:40:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:40:31] - (): Craig Dalton: And. Everything I did either was a positive effect towards Project Phil or a negative effect. So if I was, if I found a good wheel or I was riding well, I was like, okay, we're making progress, we're going to get to Phil.

**** - (): And if I, fell off the pace or something, I was like, this is a serious blow to Project Phil. And I, it's funny. I started sort of naming a few of the characters that I would ride behind and, There is a guy, a guy I was calling the orange crush because he had an orange jersey.

[00:40:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:41:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And every, he was like one of those arrow bar guys.

**** - (): Right, right. Which was quite helpful. And then, at one point, um, at one point I got a really nice, um, Uh, I've started following a guy with a, with a beat the sun patch on his hip pack.

[00:41:16] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:41:17] - (): Craig Dalton: And I was like, that's a good sign, actually. Like if this guy is, has clearly beat the sun in the past, this is probably a good sign.

**** - (): So, got into a rhythm that mile 110. Or 112 water stop I'd forgotten about. And that was absolutely a godsend because, um, I need it. I just needed some relief and the volunteers there and everywhere were just phenomenal. So they poured a bunch of water over my head and just kind of cooled me down and filled me up and set me on my way.

**** - (): And so I got to mile one 48 and my buddy Doug was sitting in the chair. With Phil and I was like, this is great. Like, I wasn't expecting to catch Doug again. Right. So it was, that was a nice sort of mental jump. And, he, he had run outta water, so he wasn't feeling that great, but he's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head, he'd been there a little bit, I don't know how long, but Phil had taken care of him, got his bike all tuned up, and um, he's like, I'm gonna head out, but I suspect you'll catch me.

**** - (): And in my head, I didn't know whether that would be the case, but yeah, I ended up heading out of town and catching up with Doug, um, which was great to just know that I had someone to ride with. And he rebounded quite well for that last, um, the last 50 miles of the race. So we were very simpatico.

[00:42:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Did, um, I didn't, I didn't ask you this, but, um, just talking about the aid stations. Did you have, did you give yourself like any treats, like something to look forward to in the aid stations or did you just keep it strictly business? I had a vision

[00:42:51] - (): Craig Dalton: of a lot of treats. I asked, I asked, uh, Phil to get me some gummy bears.

**** - (): Okay. Unfortunately, all the gummy bears melted in the sun and he, he did have everything. Like we had like sandwiches, he got a pizza from Casey's and I, I just, I felt like my nutrition was working. And so I was kind of like, besides some, um, Lay's potato chips, it's like, I'm just going to stick with the program.

**** - (): I never rolled in feeling like super hungry or anything. So I was like, I'm doing something right. So why don't I just keep doing it?

[00:43:28] - (): Justin Bowes: No, that's great. Yeah. I know, from other athletes that I've coached for the 200, they always, we'll have. I mean, yeah, the Casey's pizza is clutch. Like I think everybody knows, like if you're coming to the Midwest, um, you got to get a Casey's pizza in your aid station, um, or, a cheeseburger or, potato chips seem to be like, high on the list as well.

**** - (): Yeah. That's, that tends to, uh, be a really fit, good favorite, just because, I mean, it's like the salt you want, the starch and the carbs and all of that goes down really easy. And then usually like a Mexican Coke to, to, to wash it down with. So how were your, um, timing wise, how long did you stop?

[00:44:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Very little amount of time. I think my, my ride time was just under 13 hours, 30 and my total elapsed time was 14.

[00:44:22] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So two, two dedicated aid stations and two water. Yeah. And I stopped

[00:44:28] - (): Craig Dalton: at both, I stopped at both aid stations. I honestly think at mile one 12 at that neutral aid station, when they were pouring water on me, that might've been longer than my checkpoint to stop

[00:44:40] - (): Justin Bowes: looking at your file.

**** - (): I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So, yeah, it was a bit crazy. Like, I just didn't, I, like, I know myself, like I know I just need to keep going. So I didn't, I sat down for a minute and, Phil was great. He was like there with lots of stuff, but I was like, let's just swap the bottles out. He put some ice down my back, he put my pack in the cooler, like, to get ice water on it.

**** - (): And, uh, after a few things, lubing up the chain, et cetera, making sure the bike was all right. Yeah. It just felt like it's time to go.

[00:45:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's good. I, that's, definitely, um, a word of caution to, athletes, especially new to the 200 of like, unless you're in a bad state, in a bad way, uh, you want to minimize the amount of time you hang around in the aid station, just because your legs start to.

**** - (): revolt a little bit and they don't want to cooperate, and so the, the shorter time you can, uh, the quicker you can get in and get out, um, with giving yourself enough time to resupply and not forget anything is always going to be better than just, standing around for, 10 plus minutes, John, John with everybody and things like that.

**** - (): Cause if you don't need to, man, Yeah. A hundred percent. Get back after it. So.

[00:46:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, at that second aid station mile one 48, I think Doug was a lot more conscious of the idea that we could beat the sun than I was. I think the last, the last 50 miles had been a little bit mentally hard on me.

**** - (): I was not in a dark place by any means, but I'd kind of was like, this is what it is. Like I gotta, I'll pedal as far as I can pedal and as fast as I can pedal and it is what it is. But. He, he had never beat the sun before. And I think he saw it as a really great opportunity. And as we had talked about as my kind of, my number one goal was to finish.

**** - (): Second goal was to finish healthy. And third goal was to beat the sun. Right. It was great to know it was out there. And the funny thing was my, my Wahoo was, it had 54 climbs as the listed number of climbs. And I believe by aid station two, by checkpoint two, we've done 52 of 54 climbs.

[00:47:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah.

[00:47:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Which is pretty, it's pretty crazy. So we've done like, close to 10, 000 feet of climbing already. And I think they maybe have listed it as 11. Anyway, negligible amount of climbing over the next 50 miles. So I was like, well, that's, that, that feels good to know that most of it's behind me. And, and, and everybody had said this, like getting to checkpoint two Was really the hardest part, right?

**** - (): And you just need to ride back to Emporia.

[00:47:25] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's always there's always going to be, a Joker station or, segment. Um, generally, it's like the Kohola, uh, Lake climb. Yeah. Um, and, For those who don't know, um, or didn't follow the weather or anything like that, we had pretty optimal conditions all day.

**** - (): I mean, we started, um, cloud cover, cool, nice, favorable breeze, um, all of that. And, for us in the 100, it wasn't until we really got closer to Kohola Lake, I mean, it was like. After the aid station, which, we shared, um, there in council groves, um, the, the clouds were starting to thin out and you could, you see a little bit more of a shadow underneath you and everything like that.

**** - (): Um, but it, you guys were in it a little longer, the heat, the sun and everything like that, but it still wasn't like in 2021 where it was just essentially a hairdryer. on your face, the entire day. Um, and so with the Kohola climb, that can always be a spoiler. Um, and I think I mentioned this to you on our call the other day.

**** - (): It was like a lot of people, as soon as they get over that climb, you're roughly, inside the last 25 miles basically to, to the finish and. Yeah, your climbing's essentially done too and people like, oh, this is great and just like get on the gas and in a 10 mile span They're completely shattered and on the side of the road because they just completely underestimated You know, whether it be the previous 70 miles or the previous, 180 that you just did are in your legs and Any extra efforts can really put a Put you in the box really quickly.

**** - (): And a lot of people's wheels fall off after that Cahola climb. Um, because they're like, Oh, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not done. You still got some mileage ahead of you. Yeah,

[00:49:27] - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. I think we were, we were looking over our right shoulders at the sun and looking at it kind of starting to go down and we're like, we do need to keep going pretty efficiently

[00:49:41] - (): Justin Bowes: to

[00:49:41] - (): Craig Dalton: make it.

**** - (): And, you go, you continue riding the dirt roads and then you go under the highway. And then you're at the university and you've got that final paved climb before the finish line. Yep. Um, and we're like, we've, we're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this.

[00:49:57] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[00:49:58] - (): Craig Dalton: And I think we ended up finishing like 15 minutes to spare before the sunset.

[00:50:03] - (): Justin Bowes: No, it's, it's, it's awesome. And I think, uh, to, to put it in context, um, this is the first year. That a lot of people were nervous about it because The start time had been pushed back, uh, to accommodate the new, uh, starting protocol with the, the pro men. Then 15 minutes later, the pro women, and then essentially a half an hour behind them, you all started.

**** - (): So I mean, taking away 30 minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're up against the sun actually setting on you, it, it, it comes quickly. Like you said, I mean, you had 15 ish minutes to, in your pocket, um, that could have easily gone one way or the other, um, quickly. So, yeah,

[00:50:53] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, you, you could, you could see to your point earlier about the aid stations, like you could have very easily burned 15 minutes sitting around on your ass, having a pizza,

[00:51:03] - (): Justin Bowes: totally.

**** - (): And I mean, and not 15 minutes at one, you could do, Seven here, eight there. And in, in the grand scheme of things in a 14 hour raise, what's seven minutes. Right. Well, add that up and all of a sudden you're, you're finishing in the dark.

[00:51:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So a hundred percent. So, yeah, I mean, I haven't finished.

**** - (): Crossing the finish line was, was great. I mean, riding down commercial street with, um, with Doug was just fantastic. That's so cool. Have us, yeah, have us both meet our goals and the crowd were great. And we've got our names announced and, uh, Yeah. It just like, it wasn't lost on me the entirety of the experience.

**** - (): The town was wonderful. It's it's, it's obviously a grand spectacle of the gravel cycling community. Right. So I think coming down that I was, I was generally genuinely emotional, just felt very fulfilled with my day and effort to have it conclude before sunset and, come down that finishing line shoot.

**** - (): It just. It felt great.

[00:52:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, I bet. I mean, I, I did share this with you, uh, the other day. Um, not only did I have you, have you, uh, competing, but I had, uh, one other in the 200 and another one in the a hundred and as a coach, even though I was racing, I still have like, you know, The best I could compare it to is, being a father of three, it's just like, it's like you're looking after your kids, right?

**** - (): You're nervous for them. Yeah. And, um, and so after I got done and cleaned up and went about the rest of my day on, on, on Saturday and everything like that, now I turn my I turned my browser to the race results to see, how everybody's faring out there and projected times and, and things like that.

**** - (): And when I, when I popped open my laptop and, and pulled up the results and you were still on a course, obviously, but, uh, just seeing your splits come in and everything, I was just like. Damn right, like, look at this guy go, like, he's, he's actually doing this and, um, we can talk about it all the time, as coaches of like, I know that I was giving you the proper training, and you were executing the training and things like that.

**** - (): But you never, I mean, there's so many variables that can show up on race day and, Mechanically, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, you had a clean race mechanically, right? Yeah,

[00:53:30] - (): Craig Dalton: totally clean. Yeah.

[00:53:31] - (): Justin Bowes: And for that to happen just by itself is amazing. And then on top of that, you hit your nutrition and hydration and everything just, it worked, and so, um, with, with a race like unbound, You know that something's going to go wrong, somewhere, some way, something's going to happen. And it's, it's, it's such a rarity to have a clean run, especially on your first time, not knowing what to expect and, and all of that. Um, but for you to be so successful with that, um, And it was just, yeah, as your coach and now as your friend, um, I'm just super excited for you.

**** - (): I was just, I was over the moon, um, excited to see your finishing time and, and, uh, to, to just hear, hear it in your voice and, and at first it was, it was just in text messages back and forth, but just, getting the tone of like, Your satisfaction with everything was just, it's, it's huge. And yeah, it was awesome to, to be a small part of that.

[00:54:37] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, it means a lot. It's been, it's been a great journey working together. It's been very fun. I, I haven't had proper coaching in ages. Um, and I recommend it. I recommend you, I recommend fast cat. It was just, it was enjoyable to just Go through a process, see improvement, uh, along the way, build confidence to do something that I'd never done before.

**** - (): And frankly, that I was, a bit scared of this whole journey started because I wanted to do something that scared me. Um, and, and to come out the other side of it, just, I'm very grateful for the entire experience, the last six months

[00:55:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh man, Craig, it's, it, again, it's been a privilege and Just exciting to, to, to see how you developed and just your professionalism with, with regards to your training and, accepting some new guy that you've never met before, be like in charge of this craziness.

**** - (): Um, and, um, yeah, it just, you, you didn't flinch. Um, I, I appreciate you being cautiously. Questioning about hate, why are we doing it this way? Why, where are we going? Um, why would you have me do this instead of that? Um, I mean that, it wasn't like I ever thought, Oh, he's questioning my ability or anything like that.

**** - (): He just generally wants to know why we're doing the training that we're doing. And, um, and I appreciate that. Like I love, when, when, when my athletes are like engaged. To the point that they want to know, I mean, it's, it's nice to when you just blindly follow the plan, but, when, when you're so engaged and you're so invested in the outcome of this goal that you've set for yourself and you're like, Hey, I just want to know what's going on and.

**** - (): It, it just, it tells me again, it's just another little, box to check, with, with my coaching hat on of like this, this athlete is he, he's invested, like he cares and he wants to do what needs to be done to, to, to succeed at this goal. And that makes a big difference on my end, um, because then I know, yeah, these are going to be hard workouts and they're going to put them in the box a couple times.

**** - (): But because he wants it and he's, he's, he's wanting to follow the plan, um, and be consistent with it, he's going to do really well. And, um, yeah, it showed. So, um, one, one final question. If I can, um, and I, I touched on it on our call the other day is like on a scale one to 10, how would you rate this overall experience from training to the event to your, your overall experience with, with Unbound here?

[00:57:34] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I said it last week and I think I'll stick to it. It's a 10 out of 10 for me. Okay. And. Yeah, the only, I hesitated a second there, Justin, because I might've knocked it down to a 9. 5 because I, again, like I watched someone else's video and I was like, Maybe I could have pushed a little harder early on, but it's in the grand scheme of things, neither here nor there.

**** - (): Like, I think again, like the, I learned a lot along the way. It was fascinating, working with a power meter, thanks to SRM, uh, using their power meter pedals. It was interesting to me going carb journey and trying to figure out, would that work for me? Along the way, everything was, great on the training.

**** - (): Like we had to cram a little bit, but that was all good. The family was super supportive of it. And then, getting to Emporia and having that bluebird of a day, um, was something, that it couldn't have counted on at all in terms of the weather. The, the mileage came easy and fast. The technical elements of it were no issue for me whatsoever.

**** - (): And I felt like I had the right bike to take a few hits harder than I might have wanted to, to keep the pace going, but never had any issues there. And then to, to ride with my buddy Doug and have the experience with the, the whole crew. We had a number of guys doing the hundred and one guy doing the three 50.

**** - (): Great to make some new friends out there within the houses we were staying at. And the overall experience, yeah. 10 out of 10.

[00:59:06] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Okay, good. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah. When, when you shared that with me the other day, um, yeah, I got off our call and I was just like, Um, I was just like, all right, I, I, it just, it's, it's, it's so rewarding, um, to see an athlete just like check all those boxes and, feel good about, what they accomplished.

**** - (): Um, because yeah, I can put together the plan for you. Um, but it's ultimately all on your shoulders to execute. Yeah. Take care of all this, the variables outside of the training plan that is, you know, recovering responsibly, being, diligent to, the consistency of, following the plan and all those little things that I can't, I can't even like begin to.

**** - (): Yeah. Help you with, that's just your wife, and so, um, again, Greg. Congratulations. It's, it's so cool to, to see and, and have a time like that. Um, I'll, I'll give the listeners, a little, uh, number crunch here real quick. You're right. I mean, you were just in under, um, 1330 at 1327 for 203 miles.

**** - (): Um, TSS, obviously off the charts with 645, um, that's, to be expected for sure. Um, average speed, I mean, just over 15 miles an hour for the 200 miles over that type of terrain is fantastic. Um, your normalized power, um, was so good. Um, Yeah, it was just the only thing that we didn't capture was heart rate.

**** - (): Um,

[01:00:48] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I failed to talk about that. I was so mad for so long that my strap wasn't working.

[01:00:54] - (): Justin Bowes: It's the worst when it's on and there's just nothing you can do about it. I kept

[01:00:59] - (): Craig Dalton: thinking like by the first aid station, I would take everything off and recover it, which I did. And then it still didn't work. Yeah.

**** - (): And like halfway through. The next segment, I just like ripped it off my body and shoved it in my pocket.

[01:01:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's one like little nitpick on my end and sense of like, it would just been really interesting to see, um, the correlation between your power and the heart rate and where, I mean, it ultimately, it was always going to drop off and start to decouple, but you know where that was for you.

**** - (): Um, because then, for me, I can go back to the training and say, okay, yeah, this is, this is white. We went as far as we did and, and all of that. So, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so there's, there was one less than ideal thing, pop up out of here and it was stupid heart rate monitor. So.

[01:01:51] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah.

**** - (): In the grand scheme of things.

[01:01:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[01:01:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, thanks so much for coming back on board and helping me recount this, uh, this event or this experience that's going to be in my memory for a long time.

[01:02:02] - (): Justin Bowes: With that, is there an Unbound in your future again or too soon?

[01:02:07] - (): Craig Dalton: It's a little too soon. And I think I mentioned to you that last week, it's hard to imagine having a better day out there.

**** - (): Then, then I had all things considered and with so many great events out there that I would love to do in time away from the family. I don't, I don't know if unbound would be it again.

[01:02:26] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair.

[01:02:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah,

[01:02:28] - (): Justin Bowes: no, I mean, it's hard to go out. And, as, as good as you did. And like you said, I mean, uh, another experience would it, taint this one, and in the sense of like, next year is like, flats on flats on flats or, body shuts down or, whatever the case may be, or the worst weather ever.

**** - (): I mean, so yeah, go, go out on top.

[01:02:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going out on top, I think on the 200. For me, it's either like. Go shorter and actually like, see what it's like to race an event. Cause I don't, the 200 miler, like it's hard to consider it a race for me. It was really about managing my way across the finish line as efficiently as possible.

**** - (): Or going the other way, which has always attracted me, which is like the bike packing. route and, trying some of the real long distance stuff longer than 200 miles. Sure.

[01:03:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. The, the 350, the XL crew, that is, that's next level, man. Yeah. I, I, I always, I always like tease myself, like, that would be so cool just like to push your limits.

**** - (): Um, And, and, and see what that's like, um, for that distance and everything. But then reality kind of sets in on me and like, you, you're not going to do that. So I'll stick with my hundred. I love my hundred distance.

[01:03:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is like an overnight riding experience that I need to have as that next unchecked box. I've sure I've done like the team racing 24 hours, but I've never done. Sort of a self supported overnight.

[01:03:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Straight through. So I am, I am curious about that. Why don't we leave it at that?

**** - (): That'll be a mystery. And if, if, and when I decide to do something crazy like that, we'll chat more about it.

[01:04:09] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Love that.

[01:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Good to talk to you, Justin.

[01:04:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig, it was great seeing you and congrats again, man. It's awesome.

[01:04:17] - (): Craig Dalton: Thank you.

 

 

 

This week we welcome Tomas Castrillon, the founder of Arriba Travel, to talk about the joys of gravel cycling in Colombia. We discuss the allure of traveling by bike, the unique cultural experiences that can be found off the beaten path, and the incredible diversity of Colombia's landscapes. Tomas shares his personal journey into the world of cycling and how it led him to create a bicycle travel company. He also provides insights into the specific route of Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip, highlighting the challenging climbs, beautiful scenery, and rural communities that participants will encounter along the way.

Arriba Gravel Colombia Website

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About the Guest(s):

Tomas Castrillon is the founder of Arriba Travel, a bicycle travel company based in Colombia. With a passion for cycling and a desire to share the beauty of his country with others, Tomas started Arriba Travel in 2011. He has been organizing and leading road bike tours in Colombia for over a decade, and more recently, he has expanded into gravel bike tours. Tomas is dedicated to providing a premium experience for his clients, combining challenging rides with comfortable accommodations and delicious cuisine. He believes that cycling is a way to explore and connect with the diverse landscapes and communities of Colombia.

Key Takeaways:

• Gravel cycling in Colombia offers a unique opportunity to explore the country's diverse landscapes and connect with local communities.

• Colombia has a strong cycling culture, with cyclists of all skill levels and backgrounds enjoying the sport.

• Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip is a challenging and beautiful adventure, featuring steep climbs, stunning views, and comfortable accommodations.

• The trip takes riders through rural communities where they can experience the agricultural traditions and warm hospitality of the Colombian people.

• Safety is a top priority for Arriba Travel, and the support team ensures that all participants have a positive and enjoyable experience.

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

 

 

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Tomas, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Craig. How are you? I'm doing great. And, um, yeah, good evening to you. I'm super excited to have this conversation. We've been chatting a few minutes offline and I was just sharing, and the listener knows this well, I love gravel travel. I just love the idea of a exploration in foreign lands by bike.

**** - (): And in particular, the. Kind of versatility, a drop bar gravel bike gives you in your exploration. Of course,

[00:00:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: it's great. What, what is it that attracts you about traveling with your bicycle? I mean, you're, you're, you mentioned it a little bit, but what's like, let's put it this way. What has been like the greatest adventure that you have been, uh, that you have had while, uh, traveling with a gravel bicycle so far?

**** - (): I think it's just,

[00:00:51] - (): Craig Dalton: you know, it's the idea that culture can unfold slowly. So as a tourist, you might go to a city and you might read a tourist map and go do this, that, and the other things, but there's so many things in between that a bike enables you to see along the way. And obviously as, as gravel cyclists, we're looking to get out into the wilderness and out into destinations unknown.

**** - (): And surely if the route is well designed. , you're, you're going well off the beaten path. Correct. So you're, you're interacting with a part of the culture that may not see so many foreign travelers. Mm-Hmm. . So you're gonna get a really authentic experience versus sort of a whitewash tourist experience you might get in a major city.

[00:01:34] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Correct? Correct. And, and what has been like the place that you said like, oh, I want to come back to this place? Or is there a place that you said like, oh, I would love to, uh, go and see that place on my, on my gravel bicycle.

[00:01:45] - (): Craig Dalton: Well, I'm going to give you two answers. One self serving in this conversation is Columbia, which is where I'm talking to you.

**** - (): And we'll get to that and why I have that in my head. Second is, is Girona. I went to Girona last year in Spain, and I think, just think there's miles and miles of gravel to explore there. And Girona itself is a great, City hub for these kinds of adventures. So as someone who, you know, I enjoy being in European cities, so you can have enough of that in the evenings, but still go spend your entire day riding your, riding your head off into the Spanish countryside.

[00:02:24] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Of course. Of course. Of course. Yes. Yes. I, I think that, uh, like coming a little bit back to me, I, I fell in love with cycling like from a very early age. Uh, maybe you're aware of these, like you were telling me, they told me before we started this conversation that your father used to be a racer, but there was this wave of Colombian cyclists back in the eighties and they were like, I was, uh, uh, I'm 42.

**** - (): Now I was five when these guys were storming the, the, they were doing so well in the, in the pro tour. And for me it was like, Oh my God, I really want to do that. I really want to ride my bicycle. My family on my father's side lives in Medellin, on my mother's side lives in Manizales, so they are far apart in terms of particularly time, because moving around these mountains can take a lot of time.

**** - (): And so for me it was like, My mind was absolutely captured by, my imagination was captured by like these mountains and how they were ever since it was like for me, a constant sense of exploration that bicycles bring brings into my life. It's still going on. As I told you, it was like from the, from a very early age that I caught the bug for cycling.

**** - (): So, yeah.

[00:03:41] - (): Craig Dalton: At this point in 2024, that sort of history of Colombian cycling is certainly in the pro tour as well known. There've been some grand champions and some phenomenal riders from Colombia. Is there a part of Colombia for those of us whose geography might be struggling to understand the country?

**** - (): Talk a little bit about the country and maybe are there hubs of cycling in Colombia that, that, that generally speaking we're graduating these phenomenal cyclists?

[00:04:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, like just to give you a broad idea, like, eh, Columbia or better the Andes, the Andes mountains, once they arrive into Columbia, they split into three branches.

**** - (): The East branch, that is the one that in Bogota is located. The central branch. And as I got, I mean, as a reference point, Medellin might be the best, uh, reference point for that one. And then there is the West branch of the country. You have like pockets of, uh, cycling development all across the country.

**** - (): Okay. So there is people from Bogota that are super strong people. People from Boyacá, so to give the audience a little bit of an idea, Nairo Quintana, these guys are all from Boyacá, well, Nairo Quintana particularly from Boyacá. And then you have people from the other branches of the Cordillera, so you have people like from Medellín, like Reygo.

**** - (): So, but in general, like cycling is so, so, so big in Columbia that you get cycling from all across the country. So even places that are relatively flat, and we do have a lot of flats in Columbia, particularly closer to a north side of the, of the country, close to cities like Cartagena. So it's more like Caribbean on all these kind of atmosphere.

**** - (): There are cyclists over there as well. So actually cycling in Columbia, it's so big that it's really. Actually, hard to grasp. I'm, I'm local. I ride my bicycle almost every day. I'm still, I'm surprised sometimes by the sheer number of cyclists that you can see on the road. It's might be, uh, in the, in the team we have like this joke that there are so many.

**** - (): Uh, uh, I forget the one in English, so many hobos cycling their, their bicycle or across Columbia because you see somebody riding their bicycle full kit on in the middle of nowhere at a time that you were supposed to be doing some work and you will find always somebody riding their bicycle. And that's even more so on places like, I'm coming back to your question, like big cities, Bogota, Medellin, Manizales, coffee hub region.

**** - (): All of those places have a really, really strong cycling culture regardless. So I think that, uh, when it, when you think of a country that has like these super strong background in cycling, I would say that Columbia, uh, it's, it's like in my experience, I'm having trouble a little bit in Europe, in other places of the world.

**** - (): I would say like Columbia is still like, it's the best place for riding a bicycle, and it's amazing the number of people and people that get. Like how, not only the cyclist person, but actually the whole society. So one thing that we have in our tours and I mean, still surprising is how encouraging and how, uh, how our relations, our relationships with cycling or between cyclists and drivers is so positive.

**** - (): Compared to other places in the world, because we, I mean, I'm not saying that it's 100 percent perfect, but the number of cases of road rage that we face, it's very limited compared to, I mean, the number of cases that you would see are very limited compared to the number of cyclists that you will see on the streets, right?

**** - (): So, so that's, that's one very, very important thing about Colombia as a whole.

[00:07:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's really great to hear. Going back to you personally, you know, you mentioned sort of becoming aware of these great Colombian cycling stars and wanting to do it yourself. Yeah. As a child, what was your pathway into the sport?

**** - (): Were there clubs and different local organizations that helped foster your interest? Or was it a, was it a a solo endeavor that you pursued.

[00:07:41] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I think that for all cyclists in Colombia, it has, it's changing a little bit, but for many of us, particularly for my generation, it was basically a solo path. I would say, uh, I joke around this one as well, is that, uh, cycling used to be a nerd sport and I love it when he was, I was very nerdy at school.

**** - (): And I, and I, and I really love that about cycling. And I mean, I, and I loved like the people that are my friends from bicycles. All of them are freaks. So, so the point of that one is that, uh, uh, there was really not an established path. I did race a little bit, but it was basically on my own without a coach, without anything.

**** - (): It was. And it was never really an established pursuit, like what I was really, really attracted to about the, the bicycle was basically the state of mind that it created for me, like the, uh, searching for that, that experience that is completely ungraspable, but, but you really know that that is there. Like the beauty of the terrain, the beauty of the physical effort, the conquering the mountain, stuff that we all cyclists can relate to.

**** - (): It was never really a comp, there was really not a competitive edge on my behalf about cycling. It was more like a, uh, sort of a meditation kind of activity and, and a personal search for a way to, to, to exert myself, to really get tired and like, Like put my demons to rest sort of speaking.

[00:09:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And how did you arrive at the idea to create a bicycle travel company?

**** - (): Areva travel?

[00:09:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: And well, we, it was basically a little bit by chance, like those are like the random paths that life takes you on. And it was, there was definitely a side of me that always wanted to be related to bicycles. I, I never really wanted to be a part of a. Like the corporate world per se, I really wanted to instead be part of something that I would find beautiful in, in the broad sense of the word.

**** - (): Uh, so for me that was cycling. So like 14, 15 years ago, uh, I was helping some friends develop an international, like the first proper international race here in Columbia. And that led into some more connections with, uh, the tourism side of, uh, of, of that kind of events, and that created some opportunities.

**** - (): So, I mean, it's completely, like, I would say that, like, all those steps are, uh, Sort of random, but there were like, it was, uh, at the same time, there were also the work that I put into like making those random events come into like the fruition of like, what is now Arriba travel. So, so basically that's where we are now.

**** - (): And, and you know, in a way that's, that's still the philosophy that I still bring into a company that it's like a place for, uh, for people to to foster the sense of exploration that we all have in within. So, uh, gravel, as you said, that has just enhanced that part of, of my personal desire to take my, uh, that desire for a new adventure a little bit further.

**** - (): Right. So, uh, so that's, that's how I come in. That's how I came into it sort of tourism side of, of it, but really in the end, it's basically Thinking about like, okay, what are the places that I want to go for myself? And if I would take a friend of mine, would I take them that way? Or is that the most beautiful road that I can make it is basically that the question that I'm answering all the time when I'm, when I'm thinking about a trip.

[00:11:32] - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. What year did the travel business start for you?

[00:11:36] - (): Tomas Castrillon: It started a, as a travel business, we did our first, a big road bike tour in 2011. So to give the audience a little bit of perspective, we were like basically the first. Company that, uh, did something as big as this one. It was a two week trip from Bogotá to Cartagena.

**** - (): So by the Pacific, by the Pacific, by the Caribbean coast. And it was two weeks long. And, uh, that was with, uh, a, we, we, with a UK based agency that we work and we are still working with them. So, uh, so, so yeah, so that, that's how it started. It started basically as many of us in the industry, like something on the side.

**** - (): Yeah. And all of a sudden it started to it started to grow and to becoming what is it now.

[00:12:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing, a two week long trip, that's quite a quite an adventure.

[00:12:33] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes, it is. Yes, I mean I see it still is, it still is. Like, one of the things that I was telling you about Colombia is that, I mean, people don't really understand, and it's very, very hard for people to understand how big really Colombia is.

**** - (): So Colombia, when you put it together, or when you compare it, is the size of Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, and Netherlands all together. So when you, so when you put all of that together, you realize that you really can have a 1000 kilometer touring on the spot. It's basically, it's basically that big that, that Columbia can get.

[00:13:10] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Three big mountain ranges. Exactly. To choose from as well. You've got some tough days in there, I imagine. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[00:13:17] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I mean, and yes, tough, beautiful, everything all at once. It's incredible.

[00:13:22] - (): Craig Dalton: You mentioned. That first tour, those first tours were on the road. When did you start thinking about getting off road with clients?

[00:13:30] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, my, my background as a cyclist is more on the, on the, on the mountain bike scene. So as I was telling you, I was, I was very interested as a kid in, in, in, in the sense of adventure. So come the nineties and the first mountain bikes start to show up in here in Columbia. And on these family trips, I would see, I don't know, a path road that would go into the mountains.

**** - (): And I was always curious. Okay, where does that path leads to? So for me, mountain biking was always, uh, this first love that I had for cycling, like And, uh, yes, like, like the first thing that that, uh, that really caught my attention, like, okay, I really want to do this because I really want to explore even further than I have ever been, or in places that are not traditional sort of speaking.

**** - (): So in 2000, in two, in 2000, I started, uh, watching on tv, the, uh, adventure, uh, adventure races. And, and it really. This sort of endurance, the sense of adventure that this, uh, events brought. So I started to, to do a little bit of those events. And at the same time, I started to befriend people that were doing a little bit of what we currently call gravel.

**** - (): So it was basically, it was off road riding on, uh, on dirt paths. So it was, and I'm bringing this, and it was where it was early 2000 when I started to say, Okay. I want to go and explore with these guys or parts of the country. So, so there was always that in my mind and, and, and for me, it was still like this sense of exploration.

**** - (): So we did, so 10, 12 years ago, we started doing road cycling, but I always felt that itching, like to tell people there is also one beautiful side of Columbia that it's absolutely Magnificent. Uh, and it's even more challenging perhaps that, uh, that a road bike trip, uh, and it was, uh, uh, I, I have to admit to everybody, like in the beginning, I was very dubious about, about the gravel thing, because, uh, Because for me, it was a, it was like, is this either mountain biking, uh, and road cycling?

**** - (): It was not clear. And to be fair, uh, seeing the terrain in Colombia, it's still very complicated sometimes to say, to define it, okay, this is road cycling or, or this is mountain, sorry, this is gravel, gravel cycling, or this is mountain biking when you have a 15 kilometer climb at 10%. I mean, probably sometimes for some people, a gravel bicycle might be a little bit undergeared.

**** - (): As you were mentioning. So, so, so, but, but I started to doing it and I started to think of it like, okay, this is a great way for me to, I mean, there was sort of the market opportunity. It was a growing as, um, as a, as a trend. In cycling. So, and, and basically it made sense that it made sense at some point.

**** - (): Okay. Okay. We, we, we have, uh, just after the pandemics, I was like, we really have to do something that is gravel related. I was getting my first gravel, my proper gravel bicycle. And I was like, okay, we, I think that there is some merit to having a new category in the whole industry. Okay. And I, and I was completely sold on the idea, uh, on the idea of gravel bicycle for, for myself.

**** - (): Therefore, as I was telling you, once I'm sold on myself, I can tell like, okay, I want to take people to go and do all these great adventures that we safe, great safe adventures that, that I want to, to create. So for me, that, it was, that was the case that was basically the case on how we became from an idea, A little bit of personal, uh, or personal history and combining them into, into creating a, uh, sort of a business opportunity.

[00:17:35] - (): Craig Dalton: So now you've got the gravel bike and you're sort of able to free your mind of thinking, okay, I don't only need to be on the road, but I can go on the trail. You shared with me a really fantastic looking gravel trip. Talk to us about how you sort of conceived of the route and give some details. Where are we starting?

**** - (): What are we experiencing?

[00:17:59] - (): Tomas Castrillon: So how it started or how, like, basically for all trips, like, like how I, I, I start to think of a great way to connect to spots, like, uh, so two big spots on the, on, on, on the map, right? So you, like, some people know about Columbia. And some people know about Bogota and for example, me is getting all this attention at this moment.

**** - (): So you start thinking, Hmm, okay, I want to create an itinerary that connects these two dots on, on the map. And, um, and, and you realize that, and, and I know that, okay, we have, we have had an itinerary that connects Bogota to imagine on a, on, on the road for. I mean, it's our flagship prep is still our best selling trip, but there is still these, uh, people that want to take it to take the adventure a little bit further.

**** - (): So I basically start to think, uh, on, uh, trying to imagine how a route like this one will be perfect. And I just start putting the pieces together and creating an itinerary that is going to be both challenging and beautiful and has everything that I want about a, our, a cycling trip, like great accumulation all around, all along the road, because that's actually One of the hardest thing to, uh, to sort out in Columbia.

**** - (): We are still particularly in rural, in rural areas. We, we are still, uh, lacking like the tourism infrastructure in many places. So when you're thinking about putting together a trip, like you have to, uh, deal with all these constraints and find like the best, the best route that really makes people happy to come over and makes people safe to come over.

**** - (): And, and it's a route that is interesting and it's a route that has, uh, many, uh, points that, uh, many places that, that, that can be a landmark for, for people to see. So when thinking about that district in particular, I would start looking into a route. And so I know that I want to get away from, like, usually what I want to see is for people to test their, test their stamina quite a few times over these mountains.

**** - (): So going up and down, going up and down and finding, like, a, Being captivated by this country as much as I am, right? So that that's basically how, how it begins and how it, it really develops into finding the best, uh, path for that one.

[00:20:31] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm always curious when you're, you know, when you're bringing a, um, A group of mixed people who don't know one another to to a trip.

**** - (): It's often difficult to assess people's abilities and kind of create the right amount of climbing and descending and technical abilities. I know. I recall on one trip. I went on prior to signing up. They sort of gave us a little road map. Like, you know, You ought to be able to do this if you're going to enjoy this trip.

**** - (): And I thought that was interesting. You know, gravel is so complicated because, you know, you can have the best road cyclists who can go uphill super fast, but the moment they get off road, they may be challenged. And, or ironically, maybe. When they start going down the hill, that's when they're terrified.

**** - (): They go uphill really fast, but going downhill is really complicated. So I'm curious if there's any sort of guide guidelines you put out there in advance for riders to make sure they're going to have the skills to have an enjoyable time.

[00:21:26] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we try to create a, uh, uh, a brochure that has like all the details, like to give you a real perspective on that one.

**** - (): It's never going to be easy because as you know, like the terrain can change for some people can thrive on wet conditions and somebody can be scared to death on a, on a dirt path that is, that is washed out. Right? So it's very, very complicated. And that's when I think that the support team really comes into play.

**** - (): A to make you feel like you can do it like I, I, we can come into this one later, but, but, but, but the, but the, the, the name of the company is about that inspiring people. And I know that. We are all capable of things that we really sometimes don't think that we are capable of doing it. So there is always like this sort of encouragement side from the team, like to make sure that it like for people to feel comfortable about like stepping outside of their comfort zone.

**** - (): Right? So I really want people sometimes to I mean, they might, they might achieve it or they might not, but at least to give it a try. And for us as a team is basically to, uh, give people the tools for doing that. Basically, that's, that's, that's where, uh, that's, uh, that's basically what, what we're trying to do.

**** - (): So in those cases, it's, uh, particularly on a gravel trip is basically offering enough support for everybody. I, either for the fast riders, like fast in terms of gravel or fast in terms of road cycling that they can go up very fast or, uh, or like, or for those who might be struggling a little bit more, like trying to find these balances, absolutely the art of, uh, of putting a trip together, like trying to find some nice details that can help people, uh, enjoy their experience.

**** - (): And in the end, like, this is something that I tell everybody, like, I know, eh, that people like, particularly if you're writing at the back, you might get a little bit, eh, worked up because you feel I'm dragging the, the, the, the, the rest of the group or I'm being the slowest writer. And I tell people, don't worry about it.

**** - (): Like, well, or, and, or the fastest riders are going to, uh, get upset with me. And I'm like, don't worry. A, it's our work to make sure that everybody gets the ride that they deserve. Right. Regardless of like their skill level and B. You know, like, and this happens all the time. It's like, or I, I, or it has been, my case is that in the end we are all cyclists and we all recognize, eh, the, the, the different, eh, stages that we are in our development as cyclists.

**** - (): Right. And in the end, it's when particularly when you're thinking about a bike trip, it's making sure that we are all sharing this experience all together as a team, right? So I'm creating that kind of atmosphere of, okay, this is teamwork sort of, uh, sort of talking. Without a, and, and, and let me be very clear about it without a making like the super fast guy, like going one kilometer an hour is never not the point.

**** - (): It's like for everybody to enjoy at their own pace. Right. So it's for us as a team to create like the conditions for everybody to enjoy and for a team to come together and say, like, regardless of our level, we are all going to have a great time riding our bicycle. Yeah. I think

[00:25:09] - (): Craig Dalton: it's definitely, there's definitely an art to it as a travel service provider, making sure that you can find a way for everybody to have fun regardless of their ability level.

**** - (): Let's talk specifics on this gravel trip. So where are you starting? You know, what is, I assume you're starting in a, in a sort of larger city or community and then you're going out into the wilderness. Just talk us through. Correct. All right.

[00:25:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah, sure. Like the trip, as I was telling you, Bogota to, uh, to Medellin, we start just north of Bogota, like the, uh, the sprawl of Bogota as a city is very big.

**** - (): And so we are not riding properly in Bogota, but it's an international airport. So if you're flying from the U. S., it's very easy to access and we move just north of the city and we start moving. And we are first, uh, Like trying to, uh, going West, basically. So we're basically going up and down, like the first few, the first two stages, we are going up and down the Cordilleras.

**** - (): And so the Cordilleras, it's really like the mountain range itself. So it's going is, you know, you really don't find an end to them until you really are at the bottom. bottom of the Cordilleras. And how you know it is because you have arrived into a big, big, big valley and with either the Magdalena River or the Cauca River.

**** - (): Those two rivers are the, from a socio economical point of view, are the biggest rivers, the most important rivers in Colombia. So for our American audience, think of them as the Mississippi River is that big or that important for us, particularly the Magdalena. And the Cauca actually, but both of them are like that big.

**** - (): So you're always going up and down, up and down until you get to Magdalena river. Then we move, uh, uh, then we move alongside the Magdalena river for one full stage. So it's, uh, it's, it's one stage of very hot rollers. Uh, so I mean, I would say that that is never really. an easy day. We try to make it a sort of a recovery day because if you would see at the profiles, we have one big day.

**** - (): The first day it's about 18, 1800 meters. So it's about 6, 000 feet altitude. So a lot of climbing still involved on over Over 50 miles or so, like 45 miles, and the terrain can change constantly, it's a half of it, it's a paved, the other half, it's a, a proper gravel, and you're always mixing these two terrains, and that's stage number one, stage number two.

**** - (): It's a, it's a little bit more, uh, it has, uh, it had more climbing. It's closer to a 9, 000 feet of climbing in over overall over the day. And sometimes it can get very muddy. These, these areas, it's, they are a. Like, why Colombia is also known, it's for its biodiversity, and to be this biodiverse as Colombia is, you have, it has to be extremely wet at times, so it can get very wet or very cold, or very hot.

**** - (): So it's sunny, but at the same time, a lot of water is flowing into, into these mountains, so sometimes the roads can get muddy even if, even without rain. So, so it's basically like that. And we get into the Magdalena river, as I was telling you about. And then we have the other side of the Cordillera, which is generally upwards.

**** - (): Like the, the stages itself are also in those 2, 000 meters, 3, 000 meters, both of them into either one very, very big landmark that is the Piedra del Peñol. And the other one, the other stage is basically getting into Medellin. So it's basically finding, finding our way to this maze of the roads, because in Colombia, we, I mean, we do have paved roads and I'm not saying otherwise, but, but the majority of our, of our roads are, are gravel.

**** - (): And how, and it's how these small communities connect between each other and with major urban centers, right? So, uh, and this is, I think that that's what really struck me the most when I, when, when I first did the route as a whole is that when you're doing the Bogotá to Medellín route, uh, on, on, on, on the road, you feel like you're going basically, uh, On on a very, very straight road, sort of speaking, I mean, if these mountains would allow such thing like you're trying to basically basically maximize your speed, while these small roads are like a caress to to to a terrain.

**** - (): So you are you're never going like straight from. Uh, the village A to village B, but instead you are going from the farm of Don Jose to a farm of Don Julio, then back down again to a farm. So you're always up and down, up and down, like going over, like finding your way across the mountains. And I think that that's still is what strikes me the most is how, uh, variable the terrain can get, how beautiful the views can get and, and how constantly you are challenged with, uh, all these, uh, All these aspects of the road.

[00:30:25] - (): Craig Dalton: How many days is the trip in total?

[00:30:27] - (): Tomas Castrillon: In total? I mean, uh, uh, it's five stages and seven days long, the trip.

[00:30:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay, great. And talk a little bit about those local communities that you'll be going through. Like as we were talking about earlier, maybe it was offline. You know, you sort of go into a culture and maybe you see a city, but in this experience, you know, we're getting out there into the wilderness.

**** - (): So talk about the communities and maybe the accommodations along the way and the foods that you might experience.

[00:30:54] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, Doug. So these are very rural communities. Uh, so, and, and some of them, like all of all, all of these communities are agricultural communities. So each one of them has a special, uh, special crop on the side along, uh, and they are known for, uh, one particularly crop.

**** - (): I mean, uh, since we're, uh, healing several of these small towns. It's, uh, all of them have, uh, have a special thing to them, right? So we get to see some coffee growers, we get to see some vegetables, some, uh, like, uh, uh, peas and all this other stuff, like, it's, uh, it's the number of, uh, Uh, communities is as wide as a, as the terrain.

**** - (): I mean, it's changing constantly. And uh, other places there is sugar cane. Other places are, for example, the bank of a river that was, uh, transforming into, uh, uh, into a dam. And so it's to a dam. So, so it's, uh, so it's, uh. still pre sabbatic, uh, so it's constantly changing. Like, uh, uh, there is everything that you can think about it.

**** - (): So for example, the, the communities at the top of the mountains, they are known for wearing like these big, uh, ponchos. We, and, and some very old people actually still use a, a hat, but very, very tiny. And, uh, as a, as a mean of being, uh, uh, very well put together. And while the people in the, uh, in the, in the valleys, in the hot valleys, they are basically just on jeans and a shirt and with a big, big hat, trying to find a way to cover themselves from the, from the heat.

**** - (): So it's, it's egg changing constantly. The colors at the, at the top of the mountain might be a little bit darker, uh, earthly like, so, uh, uh, greens, uh, uh, browns and all that. While at the bottom it can be completely dark. colorful, right? So it's constantly, constantly changing. And, and, uh, I think that that's what I think that it's more interesting about Columbia.

**** - (): It's so diverse in, and, and as I was telling you, there is so many things to see in Columbia that, and it's so big that, uh, that is never really one thing to, to, to go over the specific of that. Having said that, so we are still, uh, a cycling tour company and we, and we pride ourselves on offering a premium bike tours, right?

**** - (): So the accommodations that we have found for this trip are all, uh, these boutique places that have, uh, uh, farms that have been, like many of them are farms that have been turned into, into, into hotels. And also it's a, like a. Some of them have absolutely fantastic views and, and we're staying in, in this, a very small places that usually when a tour comes in, we are basically booking the whole place for ourselves.

**** - (): And so it's, it's like that the whole time. So it's a, it's a great balance, I would say, because it's having the opportunity of. A great ride in the, in, during the day of, uh, of what's Columbia like. But at the end of the day, we also want to have a very comfortable bed and a great place to have food and, uh, to share our experiences.

**** - (): And that's why we're fostering like this kind of, uh, wholesome experience where, where we bring all this together.

[00:34:26] - (): Craig Dalton: What type of cuisine do you like to serve the guests?

[00:34:31] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we serve everything like we go. I mean, it's a, our cuisine. Uh, like the cuisine that you get in many of these villages is very, uh, uh, peasants like.

**** - (): So the stuff that these guys usually have and what is mostly accessible is, uh, rice, beans, plantains, that's usually like this, uh, stuff, uh, like the, the, the peasants food that you'll find in, in towns. Uh, once we are, uh, on, uh, in, uh, in hotels and all that, we try to aim for, and of course like, uh, we are, we also have a very strong culture of, uh, steak, uh, regardless.

**** - (): So, uh, so we are, uh, I mean it's pea food, so it's agriculture in the sense that it's, uh. That it's very traditional in that regard. And when we get to the hotels, we have a little bit more of an international flavor to it. So again, the whole thing is to share an experience, like have some wine, enjoy ourselves, like have like some balance.

**** - (): Like, of course, like the traditional Colombian life, but also what we are making. What, what we would be used to, as you were saying in Girona or any other place, like, okay, I want to have a proper meal and clean up, clean myself up and be, and having a great time. Right. Yeah,

[00:35:53] - (): Craig Dalton: of course. If you had to think about this trip, are there any favorite personal locations or moments that you would highlight?

[00:36:01] - (): Tomas Castrillon: All of them.

[00:36:03] - (): Craig Dalton: No,

[00:36:03] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I, I, no, I, I, I think that, and it might be a joke, but, but I, but, and it happens to me on, on all these trips because usually, uh, when I'm briefing people is like, Ooh, I love this day. I mean, it's very hard for me to say like, Oh no, there is a stage that I really don't like. Because. There is always this constantly changing landscape.

**** - (): There is always a new challenge, challenges that are ahead. So it's very, very hard for me like to say, Oh, I particularly like one stage or the other, I prefer, I love, I love them all. And all of them have taught me one thing or the other at some point. So it's, it's very hard for me to say, Oh, there is, this is my favorite stage.

**** - (): I, I would say that the second, having said that, I would say that, uh, the second stage is absolutely beautiful, like, uh, but the third stage as well, like, I mean, it's so complicated. It's so, so complicated. It's very, very hard to say, uh, to, to ping on one, on one, just on one, just one stage. I'd expect

[00:37:09] - (): Craig Dalton: nothing less.

**** - (): Right. We wanted, we're, we're coming to your country. We want you to show us the best we can experience. So it's not surprising that you love it all. Final question is just around the, yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

[00:37:23] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you say like, Oh, I want to go to Columbia. Yes. I'm very, very curious about what you want to talk to you about.

[00:37:30] - (): Craig Dalton: So I guess my history with Columbia and sort of interest in going in there, it goes back a long way. So in college. I had a classmate who was from Bogota, Columbia, and he was a big soccer player. And it just sort of talked about how much fun he had growing up there and how much he loved his culture. Then fast forward probably a decade or more, my wife worked for an international technology company and she had a project in Columbia.

**** - (): And, uh, I was actually booked on a ticket to meet her in Cartagena. At one point and then something happened and we were unable, I was unable to join her on that trip. And so I literally had a ticket in my hand to go to Columbia and didn't make it. And then over the course of this podcast, I've had the pleasure of interviewing the team from Scarab Cycles.

**** - (): So I got to talk to them and met them. They were at the Envy Builder Roundup in Utah and it reminded me, and they were just talking about how. The climbing in Columbia is amazing. And then when you get off road, it's just a spectacular country. And then I also interviewed someone who did, uh, wrote up a bikepacking route for bikepacking.

**** - (): com around Columbia. So I remember I just took away little bits from all these experiences saying like, this is definitely a place I would love to go to.

[00:38:58] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. It's amazing. It's amazing. As I said, as I was telling you, and, and, and I tried to be as, as As on bias as I can about it, because I think that we were of of microphone.

**** - (): We were talking about a, a Bovan classic in Paso Roles, which is a great event. And I love it, but, but, but, but I think that, that the thing about Columbia, it's that it's absolutely impossible to. To, to tell you and to grasp how big it is. Like it's absolutely impossible. Just once you're here, you're like, Oh, wow, this is just so massive.

**** - (): Like there is really no words about it. It's, it's, it's impossible to put it into one single word or one single, eh, Storytelling about, about Columbia is really something that you would have to experience. And, and, and for example, as your former classmate was telling you, like, for example, the warmth of the people, a positive vibe, people, like it's really not, it's really not about the writing itself.

**** - (): It's about the destination is about the experience that I think that, I mean, I'm still completely in love with. And, and, and, and, and again, I, I'm riding my bicycle. all across the country, like 12 months during the year. And that's another thing that it's important. It's like, like we really do have great, like the temperature is not going to change that much.

**** - (): So it's really like a matter of being prepared, like having a jacket on, like the annoyances of the, of, of the, of, of the rain, but it's never really that cold. It's, it's always entertaining. It's always a beautiful. And as I was telling you, how, uh, how, How the landscapes, the people like Mecca, uh, are really an experience that is so, so hard to, to think about in other places.

**** - (): I, I would say that that's, that's a, that's a beauty of it. And I really do hope that at some point you can make it over. Yeah, I was just,

[00:40:54] - (): Craig Dalton: I

[00:40:55] - (): Tomas Castrillon: was just

[00:40:56] - (): Craig Dalton: going to say, I hope,

[00:40:57] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I

[00:40:57] - (): Craig Dalton: hope many of us who are listening today Can ultimately find ourselves in Columbia on one of your tours at some point, because it sounds magical.

**** - (): Great.

[00:41:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. Great. Thank you so much for having me over. Great. Do you have any more questions? No, I appreciate you sharing your

[00:41:13] - (): Craig Dalton: story and I'll make sure everybody knows how to find you and digs into the details of this wonderful trip you've designed. Good.

[00:41:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Thank you so much. Yes. It's my pleasure. I'm really looking forward.

**** - (): To, to, to, to like start getting more people on our gravel bicycle tours, because it's, it's really another side of Columbia. It's really another side of Columbia. And, uh, and of course, Columbia has had like these black kids, these are these bad history over the years. And, and coming back to my experience and, and I, I was riding my bicycle during the most troubled times in Colombia.

**** - (): I was riding my bicycle on dirt paths in Colombia during the most, uh, uh, troubled times in Colombia. And I still think that. Regardless of that, cycling got like this aura of, uh, invincibility around it. Like it was like, uh, common ground for everybody. And, um, this is a, like to close it up, like, I think that it's worth telling you, I, with my friends that we do, we used to do adventure racing.

**** - (): I do remember one time that we were in an area that we weren't supposed to be in, and it was the middle of the night, like really. 10, 11 p. m. or something. No, it was closer to midnight. It was or 1 p. m. or 1 a. m. Whatever. I really still don't, uh, and, and it was an absolutely beautiful, uh, full moon. And we got to this place and these guys, uh, were, were like, What are you doing here?

**** - (): Like, but, but, and you know that these were the bad guys are quoting them. But, but they were like, so touched by the fact that somebody was willing to get to know their, their, their side of the story that were like, they just were super friendly to us. So. So, so this, uh, so for, for me, that, that, what that story conveys is that in the end, uh, Columbia, it's such a magical place.

**** - (): Like it's, it really, when, when you start hearing about the stories about Columbia, we would say like, no, it's not possible. Yes. It's possible. Like here in Columbia, everything is possible. Um, it's, uh, it's really mind blowing and I'm sorry. I'm lacking like a more, uh, uh, a colorful language to express it, but, but it really, it's, uh, it's really, it's a play that, Oh, sorry.

**** - (): It really, it's a play that, uh, that really goes beyond your imagination and the places that we go are absolutely stunning. And fortunately it's super safe. It's like things have improved so much for the best that, that is really a play that you should really aim to come over if you love it. Thanks Tomas.

**** - (): Thank you. Great for having me. It was great talking to you.

This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.

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About the Guest(s):

Justin Bowes is FasCat cycling coach with over 20 years of experience in the sport. He started racing at the age of 15 and has competed in road cycling, triathlon, mountain biking, and gravel racing. Justin has raced professionally and has coached numerous athletes, including national champions in road cycling, mountain biking, and cyclocross. He is passionate about gravel racing and has an active 2024 gravel race calendar.

Episode Summary:

This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.

Key Takeaways:

• Fastcat Coaching has evolved over the years and now offers personalized coaching as well as an app called Optimize, which provides real-time analysis and feedback for athletes.

• Training for a long-distance gravel race like Unbound Gravel 200 requires a strategic approach, including proper nutrition, hydration, and pacing.

• It is important to listen to your body and adjust your training based on factors like recovery, sleep, and overall fatigue.

• Simulating race conditions and practicing your nutrition and hydration strategy during training rides is crucial for success on race day.

• Having a support crew and a well-thought-out plan for aid stations and resupply points can make a big difference in your race experience.

Notable Quotes:

• "Unbound Gravel is a challenging event, but with proper training and preparation, you can enjoy the ride and achieve your goals." - Justin Bowes

• "Training for a long-distance gravel race requires a balance of endurance, strength, and mental fortitude

Transcription:

[TRANSCRIPT]

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome to the show.

[00:00:04] - (): Justin Bowes: Hey, Craig, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, excellent. I'm excited to have another fast cat on the podcast. Frank on his gosh, it must've been like a year plus ago that we had Frank on board.

[00:00:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. That's what he mentioned that, uh, when we first started talking about, uh, bringing you on is I hope you don't mind a project.

**** - (): Um, he said, yeah, it was almost two years ago, I think that he was on. So yeah, this is cool to be on with you.

[00:00:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been awesome. I mean, I've been a big fan of the fast cat podcast over the years and I've picked up a bunch. I've never really in the last couple of years had anything super substantive to train for something that terrified me.

**** - (): So we'll get to what that is and why I came back to you guys. But the evolution of fast cat over that time, obviously. That brought on additional coaches, but also built out a pretty amazing application, uh, iPhone app and Android app, I assume.

[00:00:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's as, as Frank says, you can actually feel us getting faster and it's like you can feel us growing as well.

**** - (): Um, yeah, with, you know, not only the, the success that Frank and the other coaches have had previous to me coming on, uh, which is the one on one coaching, but implementing. new AI, uh, scripts to, you know, a coaching app that can give you this amazing analysis, just as if you're communicating with a human.

**** - (): Cause it takes all of Frank's 20 years of training peak comments and puts them into this app. And so when you get done with the ride, you get that instant feedback as if, Coach Kat, who is coach Frank, you know, is giving you, you know, that real time analysis just as you've uploaded that ride. Whereas me as a coach, you know, I may see that you've uploaded a ride, but I probably won't make a comment or analyze that ride until like the next day.

**** - (): But with fast cat. It's there and it's right there for you. And, you know, as a coach, it's just like having a, uh, you know, a 24 seven virtual assistant. So it's, it's really cool.

[00:02:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been super interesting that the app is called optimize. And basically you can choose from Any number of the fast cat training programs.

**** - (): So if you're training for a gravel race, or you're just trying to get faster in your group ride, you can just pick a plan and then it'll give you a program every single day of the week with built in rest. And to your point, a couple of months ago, I think they introduced coach cat. This AI, and it is pretty amazing.

**** - (): The unlock I think originally for the app was this intersection of. Taking your HR RV, your recovery score and looking at that in the context of what's your workload proposed for the day and making sure if you're in the red in terms of recovery, they're not sending you out on a six hour ride. So I noticed as I was using it, you know, coach Kat would say, You know, you're in the red, do you want me to modify this workout?

**** - (): And then you can just type in, Hey, yeah, I'm feeling crushed. What should I do? And you'll get back a workout. That's kind of slots into the overall plan or vision for where you're trying to get to.

[00:03:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Absolutely. And I think, you know, So with the sleep metrics, more and more people are getting into and really understanding that importance of, you know, we've always been told, get that eight hours of sleep, you know, get, you know, get the bed and keep a consistent, uh, schedule, you know, the sleep hygiene aspect of your training.

**** - (): And it's just more and more as the wearables, uh, whether it's the aura ring or a whoop or your Apple watch or. Uh, garment device or any of those other, um, devices, the metrics that they are kicking out are just getting smarter and smarter and fast cat, the app can collect all that just like you did a ride.

**** - (): And so, like, as soon as you wake up and whatever device you're using uploads it to fast cat. He's already, you know, reading that and gives you that thumbs up or thumbs down on, you know, to go for it or, you know, Hey, let's hold back. And to your point, it's really nice to be able to, you know, have that chat with fast cat coach, um, to say, yeah, yeah, you know, I do feel great.

**** - (): Let's, You know, keep the schedule program or yeah, I do feel kind of worn down. So maybe an active recovery day is, is better or a day off. And so fast KAC coach, you know, can adjust that immediately for you. And so you're on your way and not have to think about, should I, should I not? And it's actually a coach telling you that it's not just you putting a guilt trip on yourself to say, Oh, I know I should, but I've got a planned workout, so I should stick to it.

**** - (): Great. Great. Yeah. I'm getting that feedback just as if I'm your coach or Frank or any of the other Fastcat coaches or your coach telling you, Hey, you know, let's take a day off.

[00:04:57] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It took me a minute in January to kind of get everything set up like the, the head unit integrations are, are totally seamless for Wahoo and Hammerhead and other computers.

**** - (): into the system for me, since I didn't have power at that point. And I was doing indoor training on a Peloton. There was a bit of a head scratcher because there wasn't a Peloton integration at the time. And it took a minute and going back and forth with the team over there to figure out, Oh, if I just at least record my Peloton ride with my Wahoo head unit and a heart rate monitor.

**** - (): At least the data is coming in at that point. Right. So while it wasn't perfect, it kind of got me one step further. And then ultimately, uh, with the thanks to SRM, I did get some of their SRM X power pedals to put power on the bike, which has been a godsend, obviously in terms of our communication and just my ability to kind of really work within the app.

**** - (): I mentioned that all to say. Like I was super jazzed with the optimized app and what it was delivering to me, but what I started to get a sense when some personal travel kicked up for April, this big chunk of time before my target event in June, like I was going to have a problem. I didn't trust that the AI could figure out this complicated equation of.

**** - (): You could training for this big event training for the unbound 200 got a limited amount of time. How are we going to get the volume? How are we going to get all the different things that we need into a program? And that's why I went back to fast cat. And that's where I got introduced to you, Justin. So Yeah.

**** - (): Long, very long intro talking a lot about the Optimize app, but Justin, welcome again to the show. Thank you. Let's just learn a little bit more about your background and then I have lots of questions about what's coming up for me.

[00:06:45] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, yeah, again, thank you for having me on the show.

**** - (): Um, long time listener, first time caller. Um. Really appreciate, uh, the opportunity to, uh, to speak with you and obviously, work with you now, uh, with getting you on board and, um, get you ready for Unbound. Uh, so my background, um, the quick and dirty is I started racing when I was 15. I watched the 1984 Olympic Games, uh, in Los Angeles, watched Alexei Grewal, from the United States, win the gold medal in the road race.

**** - (): And it was just like, my mind exploded. I was like, what is this? Like, I want to do that. And it wasn't like I was a stranger to endurance sports, um, between my oldest brother and my two younger brothers, all four of us, were involved either with swim team or, uh, cross country and track. Um, and we slowly kind of got into just, you know, riding at that time, 10 speeds as just, you know, part of training for running and swimming and everything else.

**** - (): But it was, it was watching the Olympics and watching Alexi win the gold medal. I was just like, I want to do that. And so that next summer, um, I started road racing, but I also, um, got into triathlon as well. So I grew up in Kansas city. And at that time, there wasn't a huge racing scene in Kansas City. Um, there was in the Midwest.

**** - (): So you had, you know, St. Louis was a hotbed. Oklahoma actually had a really cool old time, uh, stage race called the 89er. Um, Wisconsin, Chicago, obviously with, um, Uh, super weak and, and those crits out there, uh, back in the day. So we would have to travel to do, you know, the bigger bike races, but there was a booming triathlon scene in and around Kansas city.

**** - (): And so, uh, raced in that, uh, worked my way up, um, got my pro card early, got my cat one, you know, about the same time as 17 years old. Um, Yeah, it was just, it was a good time of, of racing and training and everything. We had a really good, um, group of people to train with. Um, then, you know, raced professionally for a few years, um, decided I got, I wasn't making a career out of it.

**** - (): Um, and so it was more like there was probably more to life than just living out of your car and traveling to races to try to get pre money to get to the next race and, and so on and so forth. And so. Um, I did transition to mountain bike racing in the early nineties, um, as I kind of aged out of the juniors and triathlon and road cycling mountain biking was taking off there in the late eighties, early nineties, and so race the nervous circuit.

**** - (): And, you know, was good enough, but wasn't a great, you know, elite pro rider. And so that was when the light kind of turned on. It's like, you know, there's probably more to life than, like I said, living out of your car and going to bike races all the time. And so, um, yeah, I decided to start a family, settle down, have kids, um, and then literally did not touch a bike for, uh, six plus years.

**** - (): Um, you know, I tell people they don't believe me. I don't share pictures, but there's evidence that I did blow up to like 250 pounds at, you know, one point while I was taking a sabbatical. Um, but it was about that time that, uh, my daughter was entering junior high and she wanted to, you know, run track and she wanted to do distance.

**** - (): And so, and it was about the time where I was starting to get an itch to get back into it. The kids were getting old enough. I didn't feel as bad or as guilty trying to like get back into, to cycling. And so, um, Yeah, bought a bike off of eBay, bought some extra large bib shorts from the local bike shop, um, started riding, and then also running with her in the morning before school and work, and yeah, pounds fell off, the training itch came back, the racing itch came back, um, Started racing again in Kansas City, um, helped with some local clubs there, helped with race direction with the tour of Kansas City and some other cyclocross races there.

**** - (): Um, yeah, and it just kind of blossomed, you know, from there. And then, uh, My wife and I, we moved up to Chicago. We lived there for five years, raced in the great crit and cyclocross scene up there, had an amazing time. We were up there for five years, and then now we are based out of central Virginia, uh, just outside of Charlottesville at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Crozet, Virginia, and, uh, now taking advantage of the amazing riding that's here and just, Head over heels, uh, into gravel racing in the last, you know, five years big time.

**** - (): And yeah, just haven't looked back since. So, um, all along the way, um, you know, coaching was a big part of that. And it was kind of a casual thing as far as coaching was concerned. When I first kind of started into it is when I got back into racing. The second time I had, you know, some friends that were running a team, a local club there for You know, new riders to get into, and they asked if I would help, you know, kind of mentor and bring those new riders into the racing fold and kind of introduce them to, you know, the ins and outs and kind of the protocols of training and group rides and, and things like that.

**** - (): And one thing just led to another. It's just like, Hey, what did you used to do for training? And that kind of spiraled into here. Let me help you. And then more and more people are like, Hey, can you help me? And so, um, after we left Kansas city and went up to Chicago, the same thing kind of happened. And I was just like, maybe I should do this.

**** - (): And then, um, I still, you know, I was working full time in the corporate world. I was in it. And, um, still racing and everything, but once we moved down here to Virginia, um, my job didn't transfer. And so my amazing wife, Andrea, she was like, why don't you just coach full time? You know, why don't you do that?

**** - (): And so, um, it's like, maybe I should. And so I did. And so for the last seven years, yeah, I've just been a private coach and I've had, I've Yeah, a handful of national champion, uh, riders in road, uh, mountain biking, cycle cross, um, three from three different countries and road cycling, um, so yeah, it's been really exciting, um, and now I just started with, uh, Frank and the team and Fastcat, uh, here in the last month, um, It's, it's been amazing, full time, you know, transition from having my own coaching business to working with a team of coaches.

**** - (): And that was kind of the allure was working with, you know, nine like minded individuals who shared the passion for development, mentorship, and. Teaching and, um, to be able to like collaborate and have our coaches roundtables, you know, and our team meetings every week and just be able to bounce things off of, you know, other, you know, coaches and, Hey, have you seen this?

**** - (): Have you done that? Um, so I hope that wasn't too long and winded, but, uh, Yeah. That's, that's how we came about.

[00:14:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. No, it's great. Yeah. And I, you know, to your point around the fast cat coaches, I've been enjoying getting to know some of them through the podcast and getting their different perspectives.

**** - (): And I could see, you know, some of them have like a strong nutritional background or, you know, different backgrounds to bring to the table, which I'm sure leads to some vibrant conversations in your coaching meetings.

[00:14:54] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we all kind of have our own niche. Um, I mean, we all obviously overlap with all the different disciplines, but you know, um, we have some that are really strong, you know, in mountain biking, some are really strong in cyclocross.

**** - (): Some are really strong in road. Some like myself or, you know, kind of jack of all trades, but like, I really love, you know, racing gravel now. And so that's the language I speak. And so, um, Yeah. And so we can share, Hey, what tires are you using? What equipment's best for this race or that course or, you know, things like that.

**** - (): And, uh, you know, I've got an athlete going to, you know, this race who's done it, who's had athletes there and things like that. And so to be able to cross pollinate, um, is, is really cool. And it's, it's really dynamic and exciting.

[00:15:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit specifically about your experience in gravel, both as a coach and as an athlete.

**** - (): I know you've been passionate about it the last couple of years. What have been some of the events you've been hitting? What do you, what do you like, like to do in gravel for yourself? And what have you been seeing across the athletes you're coaching?

[00:16:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Um, so as far as like, you know, that, you know, I still haven't done steamboat.

**** - (): Uh, gravel. I want to do that. Um, I'm trying to qualify again for, uh, the world cyclic cyclo cars, world's gravel championships in Belgium this year. I'd really like to go over there and, um, race in the worlds. Um, I missed it by a spot last year, uh, going to Italy. Um, we can talk about that. My. Body just kind of said no bueno during the middle of the race and later found out there was some medical stuff behind it.

**** - (): So, um, got that all fixed, but, um, yeah, gearing up like you, I'm gearing up for Unbound, but, uh, unlike you, I'm only doing the 100. Um, this will be my third shot at it. My first time in 21, I was able to take 15th, uh, overall on that one. And then next year, 2022, I DNFed with a mechanical. Um, and so I punted last year and deferred to, to come back this year and we're going north and I really like the north course more, more so than the south courses.

**** - (): Um, so I'm really looking forward to that.

[00:17:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. What do you like about that north direction now that we're on that subject?

[00:17:20] - (): Justin Bowes: Ah, I like the nasty, chunky gravel. Um, I, I think it, it's, You know, it, it's plays more into my strength, um, as a rider, I like the technical aspect of it. Um, the short punchier climbs is very similar to what I train on here.

**** - (): Um, yeah, so it just, it, it fits in really nice. And I also like, this is going to sound really kind of sadistic, but I really like having the headwind on the way back. It really exposes, uh, the, the weaker riders and those who, you know, don't know how to deal with the wind. Um, and so, um, I just remember in 2021, uh, coming back and it was just like sucking on a hairdryer for, you know, 50 some odd miles of just like, it was just, Exhausting.

**** - (): But at the same time, you know, growing up in Kansas city and racing across Kansas and Missouri and Oklahoma, I mean, I was used to it. And so it was, it was, it was almost like I am home, you know, it's like, it felt like being home. And so I was really comfortable with it.

[00:18:27] - (): Craig Dalton: There's something interesting about like places you've trained and how they, your body recognizes them after the fact, when you come back and you're like, gosh, I have existed in this environment, this, this before I kind of get it.

[00:18:40] - (): Justin Bowes: Exactly, and I mean, I, I do really well in heat. Um, my body just responds well with it, and unbound is inevitably extremely hot , um, and uncomfortable. Um, yeah, I just, I, you know, over the course of the, the, the, uh, the race, I just, I mean, everybody loses power. I mean, just because of, you know, the, the natural.

**** - (): ebb and flow of the race and the distance and the duration and everything like that. You're, you're, you're going to lose power, but you know, the heat doesn't really affect me that much in the, in the fact of it, I can prolong that drop in power. Like I can put it off, you know, longer than, than most. And so I can kind of cope with it.

**** - (): And yeah, I know, I think it's mental too. Like when, you know, you do well in a certain environment, um, or, you know, climate. That you're just walking into it and you're feeling like, yeah, I can do this when everybody else is like, oh, it's going to be 90 degrees, you know, and they're already, it's kind of like, you know, when it's raining or freezing cold, they're already shut down before the race even starts.

[00:19:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. For those of us who might be heat challenged as a coach, how would you advise your athletes to prepare if climate in their home environment doesn't necessarily get up to those heats?

[00:20:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it is a challenge, uh, because heat. obviously affects us, you know, differently, even if, even if you're in it, uh, some people just don't do well with it, but you have to be ready for it.

**** - (): And so, um, you know, this is something we, you and I actually haven't even talked about. Um, but it's, it's one of those things where we want to do simulation rides to, um, prepare not only for You know what we're eating and drinking and distance and things like that, but also, you know, weather conditions and it's, it may be, you know, getting you back on your Peloton, you know, in a long sleeve Jersey and leg warmers and things like that, just to, you know, do some interval work, um, while raising that body temperature as much as possible and, you know, restricting the cooling aspect of it.

**** - (): So, you know, the exact opposite of what we talk about when we talk about it. Training indoors of like keeping it 68 degrees and air flow and and all of that. Yeah, but to get you ready for something like that It's more like let's put a you know, thermal jersey on some leg warmers and you know close the garage and you know Sweat it out.

**** - (): So

[00:21:13] - (): Craig Dalton: well, I can I definitely have a hotbox environment in my garage if it's Plus 65 degrees, which I can reasonably get to here in the Bay area. The other thing you mentioned, and maybe just to put it in context for people who haven't done the North route at Unbound or just been out to Unbound in general, when you talk about a short punchy climb, what, what, what does that look like?

**** - (): Give us some parameters.

[00:21:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Uh, so duration, I know you and I've talked about this, uh, duration wise, you're looking anything from 30 seconds to, you know, as the race goes on, maybe five minutes. Thanks. You know, as opposed to, you know, a 20 minute climb or 30 minute climb or something like that, but just repeated short punchy climbs where it's just like straight down one side and then all your power up the next side for 20 to 30 seconds, you know, to get up and over it.

**** - (): Um, and so that's, those, those are punchy climbs and you're, you know, you're looking at like, you know, anywhere from like seven to 12%, you know, type of gradients. You know, mixed in.

[00:22:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A lot of times, obviously, like when we can see the top of a climb as athletes, if we've got, if we've got the requisite power, we're going to want to push and roll over that right in a race of 200 miles.

**** - (): And maybe there's 400 of said punchy climbs in the middle of that. How should you be thinking about it? And maybe, You can use some terms that we can get into later about VO2 max or sweet spot or like, where do you push to knowing that early in the race? Like I could probably hammer over this thing, but it may not be in my best interest six hours from now.

[00:22:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, and you know, it's again, you know, with Unbound and especially the 200, we kind of want to reverse thinking as far as like, Hey, yeah, I can punch over all of these like really early on. And we want to like, think the opposite and say, let's take our time getting over these and just get over as smoothly as possible.

**** - (): With, you know, putting out as little as power as possible to just maintain, you know, the pace that we, you know, you and I, you know, set upon as far as like our target, um, because course like unbound, it's a death by a thousand cuts. And those thousand cuts are those, you know, punchy hills repeated and things like that.

**** - (): But in addition to the punchy hills, you just have these false flats. Of this never ending horizon also, you know, and so while, you know, maybe you have a section where you have a few rollers or punchy climbs there, you may have another, you know, 10, 15 miles of just nothing but a false flat of like one, 2%, if not more.

**** - (): Where you just don't see the end, you know, that end just keeps moving on you. And, and that's, that's where the mental aspect really comes in of just like not allowing yourself to like, you know, get distracted by the fact that you can't see the end because most climbs We're on we know that we're up and over that climb and we're on to the next, you know, flat or downhill or something like this, where this is just nothing but a grind.

**** - (): And so you just have to keep a mental, you know, a positive mental, um, attitude of. This is what I wanted to do. This is what I trained for. This is, you know, I'm ready for this. And so, um, you know, in everybody's power, I get, I get a little wary of like putting out power numbers, you know, for just examples, just because everybody is so different and the climbs there.

**** - (): because they are technical in nature of because of the chunkiness of the gravel and things like that. Each one is so different. I mean, there just really isn't one that's the same because believe it or not, even the middle of Emporia, like there's a dozen different types of gravel that you're going to encounter and they're all in those climbs too.

**** - (): And so, um, You know, one, you're, you know, you're sitting at, you know, 400 Watts to climb, climb up and over. No big deal. You don't even think about it, but the next one is steeper and chunkier. And so now it's just like to try to put out 400 Watts consistently. It's just like, I can't do that. Yeah. So it's just, it's a matter of, you know, just, you know, again, going back to your mental attitude and, and, and realizing that, Hey, I did the training.

**** - (): I know I can do this. This is just another 30 second type of effort. I'm onto the next.

[00:25:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm, I'm confident there's going to be a lot of discipline along the way that needs to be applied as a writer. We all have the tendency of following wheels with enthusiasm, particularly if, you know, I, I won't and will not be doing many events.

**** - (): So this being a singular event or one of a handful this year, I'm going to be enthusiastic and, you know, it's fun to ride in a pack. It's fun to do all these things. And I think it's going to be critical to always just check, check oneself and say, We've got a long day ahead of us. We need to play this out, the long game and be mentally disciplined along the way with our physical efforts.

**** - (): And then also back that up with a strong nutritional strategy that you don't waver from as well. Because I certainly know from my Ironman days, you can make a mistake early and you're just going to pay for it. On the bright side, when you're talking about a 15 hour day, there's always opportunities to recover.

**** - (): Yes. You cannot afford to get yourself in too big of a hole. And I do think it's just about having a system in place for nutrition, for hydration that you're following like a check, check box, like a robot. So just interested to get some, some more detailed comments from you on the nutrition side of things.

**** - (): And you know, should we be writing things down on the top tube? Should we have alarms on our watches? Like, what are some tips to make sure that. We've got a fueling strategy that's going to get us through a long day.

[00:27:15] - (): Justin Bowes: I, you know, as far as, you know, backing up for just a second and, and getting caught up in like the enthusiasm of, especially an event like Unbound, because that is like the center of dare I say, even the cycling world is focused on Emporia, Kansas on June 1st. You know, it's gotten so big that, you know, when you have teams like Ineos sending, you Cameron Worth over to check it out to see if it's even worth, you know, doing it's kind of a big deal, right?

**** - (): You know, you have Peter Sagan dropping in just to check out what's going on and things like that. So it's very easy, you know, that entire week leading up to the actual race day to get caught up in just the swell of, you know, excitement and, and things like that. And then as soon as that gun goes off. And you're surrounded by, you know, 3000 of your closest friends to go do 200 miles.

**** - (): Everybody wants to like be a part of it. And that's, that's like point number one of like, keeping your, yourself in check of just like, Nope, I lined up with, you know, the 14 hour crew or the 15 hour crew or whoever you line yourself up with. And that's who I'm staying with no matter what. And to that point, you know, it's easy to start talking with people and feeling good.

**** - (): And I always tell my athletes. You know, when, when they have a, you know, struggle with, uh, you know, completing a workout or not feeling like they did their workout, you know, the right way, we immediately go back to the nutrition and hydration, uh, question. It's those simple, low hanging fruit, um, aspects of, well, what did you eat?

**** - (): How often did you drink? And if it was an early morning ride, a lot of times, you know, they may have skipped breakfast altogether, or maybe just had like a slice of toast or a banana or something like that just to get them out the door because it was early. And while that used to be kind of. You know, common practice.

**** - (): Now we know that that's not the case and our bodies need way more fuel than what we originally thought. Um, and a lot of us used to train with. And so now it's, you know, make sure, you know, if that, if you means getting up, you know, an extra hour earlier to actually eat a breakfast, that's what you have to do, you know, and as, and, and with you, you know, as we get closer to the event.

**** - (): You know, we're gonna have to start practicing that early morning breakfast routine because you guys go off at 6:00 AM a lot of people aren't used to doing anything at 6:00 AM let alone embarking on 200 mile gravel race. And so, you know, practicing, you know, that fueling strategy ahead of time to, you know, wake, you know, the wake up time, the, you know, pre-breakfast, you know, was that coffee or tea or, you know, whatever it is.

**** - (): And then eating, you know, substantial breakfast. And then getting on the bike and as you're sitting in the corral waiting for the start eating again, you know, and so I like to tell, you know, my athletes, while it's a neutral rollout, it's, you know, it's neutral, it's not, but at the same time, it's, that's, that's another opportunity for you to like grab, you know, another bar, another gel or something like that to stick in your face.

**** - (): Um, because the more often that you can eat, the better off you're going to be because eventually you will get to that point where, you know, just through exhaustion and mental fatigue and physical fatigue and everything like that, it's very easy to stop eating and, and drinking, you know, you're just like, Oh yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll drink in five minutes, you know, or I'll eat again and you know, 20 minutes or something like that.

**** - (): Well, an hour passes and you didn't eat, you didn't drink, and then you're in the hole. And so the tips to help, you know, get the food in and the drinks in, you know, a lot now are our head units have alarms on them, uh, to set, you know, at different, you know, uh, time, uh, periods of like anywhere from 15, 20, 30, 45, however you want to do it.

**** - (): Um, To set reminders to drink or sip or eat or snack or however you want to do it. But for Unbound, you have to eat, you have to drink as often and as early as possible. And also for a big event like that, I like to recommend Real food early as much as possible. And when I talk about real food, it's like, you know, for myself, um, you know, my big ride that I had on Saturday, I make a double batch of pancakes, you know, a batch for me to eat for breakfast and then a batch to take with me on the bike.

**** - (): And I'm eating, you know, a pancake every hour with my drink mix and everything like that, carbs up. So whether it's pancakes or peanut butter and jellies or, bagels, or, you know, I'll get fancy some days and do like mini croissants and ham and apricot preserves, something like that, or pretzel roll with, you know, country ham on it, things like that, where your body can digest and get really good, you know, high, Call it high quality carbs and calories into your body early, because the longer we go, our bodies will then not be able to process that real food later on.

**** - (): And it's, that's when we start switching over to gels and blocks and the really simple sugar stuff, you know, the gummy bears, you know, things like that, um, to just keep the sugars coming and by eating the real food. earlier than you kind of stave off that flavor fatigue that you'll get from the gels and the drink mixes and things like that.

**** - (): Um, and if, if, you know, if your head unit doesn't have, you know, reminders on there, um, I'm a big fan of putting like, um, colored stickers on my handlebars and stems, um, from multiple of reasons, you know, but in this instance, it would be like, Hey, why is that orange sticker there? Oh, it's to eat. You know, why is that yellow one there?

**** - (): Oh, it's to drink. And so, you know, things like that. And then, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Make a little top tube or stem sticker, you know, decal with eat, you know, at this time, at this, you know, you know, make a little checklist for yourself to like run down and eat at, you know, six 30 at seven o'clock at seven 15, you know, whatever it is, just to remind yourself to, you know, constantly eat because.

**** - (): As you, as you're going to find out, those aid stations are few and far between in Unbound. It's not like your local races where they're staffed every 20 miles or something. You have two aid stations and two water oases. That's it. You know, and it's a long distance in between those.

[00:34:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've started, uh, on my long rides carrying my use way hydration pack and two water bottles just to kind of get into that routine of having that additional weight on my body and bike.

**** - (): Um, and that, that sort of pressure to keep hydrating, I definitely need and appreciated your comments on. The kind of food strategy, I definitely need to think a lot more about what's going to work for me. I've got a pretty strong constitution historically in terms of like, I can eat the same thing all day long, but I don't think I want to do that.

**** - (): Um, so I want to figure out like, yeah, what's, what is my strategy between real food and gels and what's going to be accessible? What's going to work. I've got plenty of questions on like, how the hell do I carry all this stuff? I know we've got a resupply point at one point, but I got to do the math and probably start, um, training with.

**** - (): That volume of, uh, nutrition on me just to get a sense, like, do I have the right places to put it on the bike and where, how is it going to be accessible? Cause nothing's worse than that alarm going off for a gel and it being in your backpack and the hydration pack and you can't reach it. And

[00:35:15] - (): Justin Bowes: yeah,

[00:35:15] - (): Craig Dalton: you got to think these things through

[00:35:17] - (): Justin Bowes: for sure.

**** - (): And that's, you know, that's, you know, why we do the gravel simulation rides or the race simulation rides to not only. Get our bodies ready for the duration and the intensity of the race, but also to get our bikes and equipment ready. So, you know, if you're using a certain tire wheel, you know, that's what we're going to use on our gravel simulation ride.

**** - (): Or I can't tell you the number of times where, you know, people are like, Oh yeah, I forgot where I put my tire plug and my CO2, you know, was it in my frame bag or was in my Jersey pocket, you know, and things like that. And to your point. You got to figure out where, you know, what pocket those gels are going in or what pocket the sandwiches are going in or, you know, whatever that may be and what that feels like, because we all know we have to stuff our faces.

**** - (): But we have a finite amount of room, you know, to put it all on because we also have to feel what that bike, you know, feels like over rough terrain, you know, it's one thing to have a really nice light bike, you know, in training, but when it comes to race day and you're not used to your hydration pack, you know, And all the food in all three pockets.

**** - (): And oh, by the way, where am I putting my emergency toolkit, you know, am I taping it to the frame or am I putting in a pocket or a bag and, and all of those things, and so, um, you know, I tell, I tell my athletes, you know, whether you eat at all or not. You know, at least train with it. So, you know, what that feels like, you know, so you know where to access it and what it feels like when you're climbing, because standing with a hydration pack and three pockets full of food, and if you're wearing cargo bibs and your legs are, Bunchy and, you know, bulging and things like that.

**** - (): You know, what does that feel like? And you don't want to show up for a 200 mile race and be like, that's the first feeling that you've ever had, you know, and it's, it doesn't set a great precedent for the rest of the day. A

[00:37:15] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. This has all been super interesting. I want to jump into a couple of specifics around training.

**** - (): Okay. As we've worked together, as I mentioned, you know, I was, I was doing the sweet spot training through the app in. February. And then we started working together the last week of February, first week of March. Right. And I've been pretty consistent since then, knowing that I had this travel date coming up this week on April 3rd, where I'm going to be gone for about 10 days or two weeks of losing two weekends.

**** - (): And that was the big challenge I kind of put to you is like, Hey, I realized this is, I Really screwy. I need to figure out a way this, to make this work. And when we started working together, I started getting on these intervals and getting the consistency of the training program you were laying out. You know, one of the things that cropped up for me was like, gosh, I'm doing all these short intervals, definitely feeling stronger on the bike.

**** - (): There's no question about that. But I had this nagging feeling of like, am I going long enough? And we talked a little bit about this offline, but it's, it's Maybe just for the listener, just kind of lay out, like, how were you approaching this challenge of, Hey, we've got, I guess, three months to get ready.

**** - (): We've got a two week block in the middle where Craig's not available at all.

[00:38:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it was interesting because like I said, um, We've got a challenge here. You know, this wasn't like, Hey, a year from now, I want to do unbound 200. Um, I probably should, you know, think about getting ready for that. It's like, Hey, I'm doing unbound 200 and we're three months out.

**** - (): And so, um, that in of itself is, you know, a huge challenge just, you know, as, as an athlete to put that, put that on themselves to say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. Uh, but for a coach to hear that it's, it's like. Oh, man, how do we, how do we make that happen? And so, um, I was, I was confident. Um, I shared with you offline, you know, I worked with an athlete a couple of years ago and got her ready for unbound when, and we started working in January of that year to get her ready.

**** - (): She had done unbound before, so she knew it wasn't her first rodeo. So she knew what she was getting into. Um, but still, you know, for a 200 mile race. The 1st of June and starting in January, it's like, okay. And like, at least you had some fitness, her fitness had kind of like dipped way off. Uh, she had just kind of like taken the winter off and was just like, Hey, I'm going back to unbound.

**** - (): I heard you're a great coach. Can you get me ready? And so, you know, part of me was like, Challenge accepted. And then the other part was like, what did I just sign up for? And so I kind of had a little deja vu with you, Craig, um, when this popped up, uh, with you and with you and Frank. But yeah, getting back to your specific training, um, since you had some fitness coming in, Um, what I, how I wanted to approach this was I looked at it in kind of a couple different parts.

**** - (): One, the actual event that we're looking at, but then the main challenge of you being gone for a huge block of time in what I would consider pretty critical timeframe, um, for our training. And so it was kind of like, yeah, we, we definitely need some saddle time. We definitely need to build up to, you know, as close a distance as possible to get ready for, you know, 200 miles and, you know, likely, you know, anywhere from 12 to 15 hours, um, on the bike.

**** - (): So, but there's two weeks where he's not going to have access to actually riding. And so what, what can I do to. jumpstart the training. Um, and that's how I kind of looked at it. It was just like, okay, we gotta put the, uh, put the jumper cables on here and, and give it a jolt and, and see what happens. And so incomes, you know, our bread and butter at fast cat was, you know, our sweet spot training, um, and adding some intervals into those sweet spots as well.

**** - (): So that we're, we're tapping into all of your systems. Um, we're not just sending you out and doing, you know, four hour rides just for the sake of doing four hour rides just to get in, uh, training. That's, that's definitely an approach, but I feel like if we can touch on, you know, some sub threshold, a lot of sweet spot, um, and even some anaerobic work.

**** - (): In the weeks leading up into your two week, um, off period, then we're, we're really, really kickstarting your fitness to get ready for those longer, harder rides that we have planned for you once you get back. Um, and to let the audience know, you know, you're going to be doing a gravel training camp basically the week after you get back, you know, from being gone for two weeks.

**** - (): And so, um, we'll have a couple of active recovery days. after the two weeks off to kind of get you back into the swing of things. But then you're gone to just basically ride as much as you can, um, to build back up that fitness. Um, uh, that not, we're not losing it in those two weeks by any stretch, but it's taken a hit.

**** - (): And so we have to Start addressing the duration and the longer hours in the saddle. So yeah, I mean, looking back on your, your workouts, I mean, we, we've kind of hit it all we've done, you know, everything from 30 thirties to extended, uh, sweet spot, um, intervals, um, some threshold, um, anaerobic over and unders.

**** - (): Um, and for those that don't know what over and unders are, it's basically like a burst of power. For a short amount of time, you know, 20, 30 seconds, and then you settle into a sweet spot, um, or a tempo style, uh, zone for a while. And then you end it with like another, uh, burst of, uh, power at the end of that.

**** - (): And so a couple of things we're doing with that is not only, again, Trying to build up as much aerobic capacity as possible, but also getting you ready for those type of little punchy climbs that you're going to encounter out in the middle of Emporia, Kansas, to where you will have to put out power to get up and over those, but then you're going to get over them and then you're going to settle back into your, your tempo, your sweet spot type of zone.

**** - (): That's going to carry you on, you know, till the next, You know, climb is going, you know, that, that pops up. So that's kind of the thinking behind it. Um, you know, you work full time too. So it's not like you can just like, Hey, uh, give me six hour rides to do. If that was the case, it would look a little different, but because you have a life outside of this, um, we have to be very strategic with your training and take advantage of the time that you do have.

**** - (): And, you know, you do have, oh, you know, time on the weekends to get into longer rides and we've That's what we're doing. That's what we're taking advantage of but during the week when you have to be accountable to your other Other part of your life. We have to get in as much aerobic training as possible And that's what these type of workouts have been designed to do

[00:45:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's been super interesting transitioning from indoor training to outdoor training with the power meter and figuring out where I can get the work done.

**** - (): I live in a relatively hilly place, so sometimes it's taken me a bit to just figure out how long will it take me to get to this particular section of road. Where I can do the work required or, you know, go back and forth to do these intervals and make it all work. It's been fascinating. The other sort of funny takeaway for me has been, I swear, like last year, I probably, the, I, the only effort I would ever do would be going uphill.

**** - (): Right here in the Bay area. I mean, there's substantial effort required, but like if I was writing somewhere like writing to Nicosia or some loop around here, I was not writing purposefully at all. I was lollygagging. Like when I look at the power meter now, it's like every, every bit of the workout that's structured, like, I'm like, Oh, I'm actually putting effort in, even if it's like the easy.

**** - (): Period of the workout, right? Because it's all programmed. Right. It's just been fascinating to me and funny. Like I have a lot of chagrin about the whole experience to be honest.

[00:46:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, this whole thing has been interesting for me as well, because you know, not only like, you're kind of, you're kind of an anomaly in the sense of like, you've, you've done training in the past, right.

**** - (): With your Ironman background and everything. And it's not like you're some new cyclist, you know, Come lately and just like, this is what I want to do sort of thing. I'm going to hop on the bandwagon. That's not you at all. But to your point, the purposeful training hasn't existed, you know, for a long time.

**** - (): And then like, we're training for, you know, the biggest gravel race in the world. And then also it's like, I haven't been training with power and it's just like, I have to get some power meters. And it's just like, that's definitely going to help. And so, um, Yeah, you know, coaching you with, you know, understanding, you know, again, it's not like you live in a simple area of like, Oh, yeah, I've got an uninterrupted, you know, 30 minute spot that I can go and do intervals on.

**** - (): It's carless and it's flat. It's perfect. You know, it's like, no, you're like, I've got an hour climb this way. And I've got a 45 minute climb that way. And. You know, it's just like, how do we do this? And so, but then also like how, you know, not only coaching you on, you know, how we're going to get you ready, but then also like, how do you ride with power?

**** - (): Not just outside, but how do I ride with power outside? In my environment, you know, that is not conducive to, Oh yeah, I can do a five minute effort here. No problem. Or this over here is like the perfect loop to do my 20 minute test or, you know, anything like that. It's like, so it's, it's been interesting to say the least, but I mean, to your credit though, Craig, I mean, like when I, when I get the alert that your ride has been uploaded and everything.

**** - (): And I take a look at it. And then you, you do a really good job too, of, you know, of following up with comments, um, which note to everybody out there that has a coach, please make comments to your coach. Um, but you know, to be able to see, you know, what you did and you give me the context of, Hey, this is the route that I did.

**** - (): And, you know, I can take a look at it on the GP, uh, GPS file and see like, Whoa. Yeah. That was, A steep one or, you know, longer climb that what we expected, but, uh, you're handling the training. Amazing. Um, and you know, again, to the audience, you know, the purpose here, the last month is, has been to load you up, to load Craig up as much as possible with, uh, workouts.

**** - (): So when he goes into this two week time, it's actually like a recovery period for him to allow his body to soak up as much of the training as possible. Um, and so when he does get back and we do start piling on the hours, his body's ready for that. So.

[00:49:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've tried to, tried to stick to the plan , as you guys always say,

[00:49:17] - (): Justin Bowes: FTFP, ,

[00:49:18] - (): Craig Dalton: FTFP.

**** - (): One thing you had mentioned to me in our last conversation was that, you know, my, I forget whether, whether it's the fatigue score in training peaks or something, like we are running in a pretty hard deficit. Yes. And you would normally say like, he's gonna crack at some point. Right. But we, we've been riding, riding that edge and I, yeah, and I feel it, I mean, as an athlete, like I am.

**** - (): Still super motivated to get on the bike, even though I am feeling the fatigue, but I also do feel like I am somewhat on the razor's edge at times and I have to be really cautious about making sure I'm getting the proper rest and the proper fuel in me to kind of recover to go at it. So I am looking forward to.

**** - (): A little bit of time off in the next couple of weeks.

[00:50:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, I bet. No. Um, for those who are, are familiar with training peaks, um, he's talking about his form score or his TSB, um, his training score balance. And, um, a lot of, a lot of coaches, uh, subscribe to this and, you know, I've worn athletes, you know, once we get into that negative 20 to 25, That's like kind of the, those are when the alarm bells start going off of like, Hey, that's usually what we see at the end of a training block.

**** - (): Right. Um, of like a three week build, if we're doing it on that protocol of like, okay, we've gone as far as we really want to push. Um, now it is time for a recovery week, a regenerative week to just allow that, um, work to just soak in and allow your body to recuperate because, you know, in training, the basic training principles are, you know, we throw.

**** - (): stress after stress after stress at you and then your body adapts, adapts, adapts, and then we rest and then it does a full, you know, adaptation and it moves on to the next, you know, training load. And, um, for those who are keeping score at home right now, um, Craig finished the week, um, his CTL was 61, uh, his fatigue or his ATL was 107.

**** - (): And his form is a negative 42, um, leading into this week. Now, today he had a recovery day. He had a foundation stay where his, uh, mobility work, uh, he was off the bike. Um, tomorrow he does have one final threshold, uh, workout to do, but then he is. gone for the next two weeks. Um, and so, as we have it planned out, um, once he comes back, um, to, back home, he will be, his form will have risen back into the positive side with a form, his TSB will be at 28.

**** - (): Um, and so that's well rested and to the point of like, we start losing fitness, um, depending on the individual. Um, and so that's why it's a really, it's a great thing that Craig has this available that he'll be able to go away and do, you know, His own mini, uh, gravel training camp where he'll just have multiple days, you know, in the saddle and we're going to do it to the point.

**** - (): If you don't mind me sharing, Craig, we're going to do it to the point where, you know, we're going to stair step it in because he'll have four days. You have pretty much uninterrupted writing. And I see a lot of times mistakes being made when people go away for a training camp or a team camp or they get their writing buddies together.

**** - (): Hey, we're gone. We're away from home. We're away from work. We're just going to ride, ride, ride. And. Which is all well and good, but if you don't do it the right way, you can ruin your your camp like on day one. And you know, most people like, yeah, let's go smash a six, seven, even eight hour ride. Well, then they're shot for day two and day three.

**** - (): And they're just kind of on the struggle bus, the rest of the camp. And so, um, Craig and I talked, uh, on our last one on one meeting to, you know, stair step those rides so that, you know, day one, um, It's going to be a longer ride, you know, two hours, three hours. That's, that's great. But then that way for the next consecutive days, he can keep adding hours to it as opposed to just doing the biggest ride he can on day one and being torched the rest of the time, because that's not going to do him any good.

**** - (): We're not going to get anything out of this, uh, getaway. If we share ourselves in the foot on day one. So,

[00:53:50] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, I'm excited, scared and all the above for, for may. I'm definitely excited to put in the long hours as I mentioned to you in a previous conversation. Like if I was planning this out, I basically would have put every single weekend.

**** - (): Longer and progressively longer distance and more brutal amounts of climbing across the three months remaining. So, you know, it's been, I definitely feel stronger as an athlete already from this approach. Definitely. I'm still concerned about my ability to get to a time volume level that makes me confident showing into the 200 unquestionably.

**** - (): It's, it's unknown. Territory for me. I think the longest I've ever ridden on a bike is 130 miles in a day so that, you know, there's a lot of gray area ahead of me, but I think that is not uncommon for recreational athletes hitting the unbound 200 for the first time. It's the first time for everyone.

[00:54:51] - (): Justin Bowes: And I mean, and to be honest, Craig, there's, there's not many, uh, professional or elite, uh, riders that are training.

**** - (): You know, over 150 miles, you know, and one pop, uh, to get ready for unbound. So you're, you're not alone. Um, but again, it's, it's, it's being strategic with our training and not just writing for the sake of writing. Um, we, we obviously want you to finish and we, and. You know, finishing is one thing, but I want you to enjoy the ride as well and enjoy the, just the environment and being there and being part of it.

**** - (): And if you're just completely gassed because we didn't train you properly, it's, it's just going to be a miserable experience from dawn to dusk basically. And you know, that doesn't do you any good and it doesn't do, you know, anybody any good to, to just, you know, suffer through something. Undeniably, you're going to suffer regardless of, you know, how we train everything like that.

**** - (): That is just a long day. I don't care who you are. Um, and, and it's all relative, right? You know, whether you're Keegan at the front of the race or the very last cutoff finisher, you know, that they keep from the, uh, the checkpoint, the final checkpoint. It's all difficult. Um, and so, um, I'm just trying to make it as less difficult for you.

**** - (): Yeah. Um, yeah, along the way. And

[00:56:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's definitely one of, you know, one of my stated goals is I want to do it in a healthy way and feel, you know, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be suffering, but I want to, you know, Enjoy the community. I want to enjoy the people I'm around and I want to get to the finish line and be able, you know, not be a shell of myself.

[00:56:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, one thing also, um, just real quick, I was thinking, you know, as far as like nutrition and things like that, Um, one thing I haven't shared with you yet, uh, Craig, is I have like a nutrition checklist, um, for your support staff to, you know, at the aid stations. Um, just, you know, suggested this is what you should have not only for Craig, but for yourself and, you know, for, for those who are doing unbound and you guys who are taking, you know, spouses or partners or teammates as, you know, support staff, um, look out for them as well.

**** - (): You know, they, they need to have. Like their own nutrition and hydration plan as well, because they're out there just doing nothing for a long time. And it's helpful just to, you know, think about, Hey, yeah, um, I should have like a couple of different varieties of drink and sandwiches or, you know, whatever their case may be.

**** - (): So

[00:57:33] - (): Craig Dalton: a hundred percent hats off to anybody who supports the athletes endurance events. I know Uh, supporting my wife's Ironman efforts. I felt like it was harder than doing them myself. Oh yeah. Just because you cut, you cut corners, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're actually on your feet all day as well.

[00:57:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I know. I remember when Andrea did the Chicago marathon, like I ran from, you know, train stop to train stop so I could, you know, catch her at the different, you know, checkpoints. She thought maybe she'd see me once out on course, but there was like half a dozen times that, you know, you're just running around doing different, um, trying to get to different points on the course.

**** - (): So yeah. Tip your support staff for sure.

[00:58:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Justin, thanks so much for the time this evening. Thanks for all your efforts on my behalf to date. Uh, it's been a pleasure working with you thus far, and I'm excited to get to that finish line together.

[00:58:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, for sure. Craig, it's been awesome working with you and yeah, I'm equally as excited.

**** - (): Um, you know, it's, it's one thing for me to be training. You know, for my unbound, but when I'm training multiple athletes, you know, for, for unbound as well. And I just, I, I get, I, yeah, I I'm, I'm right there alongside them, you know, no matter what. Um, and you know, seeing you finish and complete your workouts.

**** - (): And when you, you feed me the comments of like, yes, I'm getting tired, but man, my. You know, my spirits are still high and ready to get on the bike tomorrow and, you know, tackle this next workout and things like that. That's just like a, a check along the way for me knowing that, you know, I'm helping you, you know, achieve something that you really wanted to do.

**** - (): And that's really exciting on my end.

[00:59:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Fantastic. I know we'll be checking in. Maybe we'll do something again on the podcast. Um, cool. Yeah. But until I talk to you, Have a great night, Justin. Thank you.

[00:59:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Thank you again, Craig.

 

 

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Dean Dahl, the founder of Good Ride Gravel, about his journey into gravel cycling and the upcoming gravel event he is organizing in Chilliwack, British Columbia. Dean shares his background in skateboarding and mountain biking and how he found a similar sense of adventure and exploration in gravel cycling. He discusses the unique characteristics of the Chilliwack area, including its diverse terrain and the growing gravel cycling community. Dean also explains his vision for the Good Ride Gravel event, which focuses on creating a community-oriented experience that celebrates both the sport of gravel cycling and the natural beauty of the region. He highlights the different routes available for participants, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain. Dean emphasizes the importance of sustainability and community engagement in organizing the event and shares his plans for a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.

Good Ride Gravel

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About the Guest(s):

Dean Dahl is an event organizer and gravel cyclist based outside Vancouver, British Columbia. He grew up in the Vancouver area and has always had a passion for outdoor activities. Dean has a background in skateboarding and mountain biking, which eventually led him to discover gravel cycling. He currently resides in Yarrow, British Columbia, a small town just outside of Vancouver, where he enjoys the quiet and scenic surroundings. Dean has experience organizing events in the nonprofit sector and has a deep understanding of the cycling community. He is the founder of Good Ride Gravel, an event that aims to bring together gravel cyclists of all levels and create a vibrant and inclusive community.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Dean Dahl, the founder of Good Ride Gravel, about his journey into gravel cycling and the upcoming gravel event he is organizing in Chilliwack, British Columbia. Dean shares his background in skateboarding and mountain biking and how he found a similar sense of adventure and exploration in gravel cycling. He discusses the unique characteristics of the Chilliwack area, including its diverse terrain and the growing gravel cycling community. Dean also explains his vision for the Good Ride Gravel event, which focuses on creating a community-oriented experience that celebrates both the sport of gravel cycling and the natural beauty of the region. He highlights the different routes available for participants, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain. Dean emphasizes the importance of sustainability and community engagement in organizing the event and shares his plans for a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.

Key Takeaways:

• Dean Dahl's passion for outdoor activities, including skateboarding and mountain biking, eventually led him to discover gravel cycling.

• Chilliwack, British Columbia, offers a unique mix of flat, smooth trails and challenging mountainous terrain, making it an ideal location for gravel cycling.

• The Good Ride Gravel event aims to bring together gravel cyclists of all levels and create a vibrant and inclusive community.

• Participants can choose from three different routes, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain.

• The event will feature a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.

Notable Quotes:

• "I realized this is actually a lot like the feeling I used to have as a skater... discovering strange little places and hitting obstacles. I get that same feeling when I'm gravel riding." - Dean Dahl

• "We want to be able to provide something that is an amazing opportunity, a gravel adventure that has a high-end component to it." - Dean Dahl

• "We're celebrating gravel, but we're celebrating you as an individual. And we're celebrating the fact that you want to be a part of something good." - Dean Dahl

Resources:

• Good Ride Gravel - Official website of the Good

Transcript:

[TRANSCRIPT]

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Hey Dean, welcome to the show.

[00:00:05] - (): Dean Dahl: Hi there Craig, it's good to be here.

[00:00:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, good to finally connect. I'm glad to see you got a sip of water right in before we started recording. I thought I had a sneeze teed up, but it seems to be holding itself. Well, you're welcome

[00:00:17] - (): Dean Dahl: to go for it. We can edit that out, right?

[00:00:20] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. Although the listener knows that I'm not much of an editor, so it is what it is.

[00:00:27] - (): Dean Dahl: Getting live and real. On the podcast.

[00:00:30] - (): Craig Dalton: Let's set the stage a little bit. Where are you, where are you talking to me from?

[00:00:33] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, I'm from, uh, I live in Vancouver or just outside of Vancouver, British Columbia, and, um, yeah, my name is Dean Dahl and been out here in a little town called Yarrow, British Columbia.

**** - (): And, uh, it's about an hour, if there's good traffic, east of Vancouver in, uh, the Fraser Valley.

[00:00:54] - (): Craig Dalton: And did you grow up in Canada?

[00:00:56] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, I did. So, I grew up in the Vancouver area, uh, recently moved actually out of the city, um, about five years ago. Um, me and my wife and our kids moved out here and it's quite a different, uh, change.

**** - (): It's quiet out here, uh, kind of like, uh, sort of semi rural farming kind of community. With lots of great outdoors, but nothing happens after 9 a. m. or 9 p. m. Sorry. And, uh, being in the city, like I was right in East Van in the thick of it. And, uh, I was used to living life after 10. P. m. So it's a change, but you know, the scenery is great.

**** - (): So that's awesome. And lots of good biking, which I'm sure we'll talk about

[00:01:35] - (): Craig Dalton: for sure. Yeah. I'm always interested to explore like how people found the bike. Obviously, you know, many of us had bikes introduced to us very early on in our lives, and it would give us a sense of exploration and freedom from a population perspective, there's very few of us who take that through line into our mid lives and are still riding a bike.

**** - (): So what was your journey to the bike? Like, and, you know, we can ultimately get to how you found gravel cycling.

[00:02:02] - (): Dean Dahl: Oh yeah, sure. Um, off and on, like probably everybody listening to this, uh, had the classic BMX bike or whatever little cruiser thing and made jumps with it and got my nose banged up a bunch when I was a little kid, which is all kinds of fun stories in themselves, but whatever.

**** - (): Um, My, I was just actually thinking about this the other day. My uncle was a really interesting character in that he had a real passion for serving young people. And, uh, he lived in the same town I did, and he actually started up a small group for, for teenagers and young kids. And he would take us on camping trips and hiking trips and, uh, overnighters and things like that.

**** - (): And, um, kind of set up his own organization with it. And I remember going on, um, You know, in the Pacific Northwest, we have a whole bunch of what we call the Gulf Islands here, all up from Seattle, up the coast, all the way to Alaska. They're beautiful. And around Vancouver, uh, he had arranged this, uh, this bike tour for us to go when I was in grade 11, around one of the local Gulf Islands.

**** - (): And, uh, I got a road bike for it and. Put panniers on it. And it was kind of my first expression of being able to be on the road, packing, gearing up stuff. And I thought, this is amazing. So from that point on, I got really interested in bike riding, but that was, you know, fun. But then, um, I kind of got distracted by skateboarding and turned into like a course skater for years and years.

**** - (): Um, and, uh, did a little bit. Uh, on the side of that, I discovered mountain biking in kind of the mid nineties, I guess, and bought, uh, you know, an old Kona hard tail thing and lived on the North shore at the time and was doing mountain bike racing a couple of seasons there and got just really exhausted from.

**** - (): pushing my bike up the hill and then slamming as I was riding down it. So that was a short lived season. Uh, but it was still really fun. Like I was talking to you, Craig, before, um, I realized now that a lot of the mountain biking I did in the past was actually gravel riding without drop bars. I remember having a picture of John Tomac Um, on my wall at some point and him, I thought he was so cool because he was mountain biking and yet he was, he had drop bars on his mountain bike and I was like, those are dark bars.

**** - (): Like I had when I was touring around salt spring Island and he's riding a mountain bike. Like I'm right, like I want to ride a mountain bike and myself. He brought those worlds together and I didn't click at the time what was going on, but now that I'm gravel riding a lot, I think, yeah, yeah, that's cool.

**** - (): That that's, that's the deal.

[00:04:46] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's funny when you think back to that period, it's like, why didn't it click then? And I think there's so many like little reasons why it wasn't right until sort of your, your 2014 era for the bikes to actually come together and form the basis of what is gravel riding today.

**** - (): Uh, it's super interesting. And I love those old Tomac photos for sure.

[00:05:10] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Well, you know, I w I wonder if, uh, mountain biking had to find itself or discover itself and had to really move away from all things road bike so it could find its own identity and now maybe it's mature enough that people can dip in and out of that road style, the gravel style without a feeling, I guess.

**** - (): Threat to mountain biking? I don't know.

[00:05:30] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, who knows? Who knows? I'm interested, you know, you mentioned your, your passion for skating for many years. Do you see there, like, any similarities between skating and cycling in terms of what it delivers to you? Or are they two just distinct areas of your brain and body?

[00:05:48] - (): Dean Dahl: No, uh, well, I think that, um, for gravel cycling and skateboarding, there's actually a lot of similarities and I'll talk to them about them in a second. But in terms of my experience going from skateboarding into cycling, not that I've stopped skating, but I do it a lot less, that ground is not getting any softer as I get old.

**** - (): Um, I just got into road biking because I realized that I'm not skating as much as I needed to, to keep fit. And I needed something that was low impact. So I got a road bike and just started racing and that was amazing, but it was a totally different rush except from hill bombing, which felt the same. Uh, but then gravel biking came along and I realized this is actually a lot like the feeling I used to have as a skater.

**** - (): Like, Going to the city with my crew, uh, going on a road trip and looking around the dark corners and alleys of a city and out in these strange little places where you can find these cool skate spots and you're right, you're rolling to them and from them and you're hitting. You know, whatever obstacle and thinking, Oh, this is amazing.

**** - (): I get that same feeling when I'm gravel riding, like I'll ride for my house. And I'll be like, Hey, I've never seen that part of the hill before. I should go check it out and see if there's any trails there and riding with my friends. And we're discovering, Oh, let's try this. Oh, it's a dead end. Let's turn around.

**** - (): Let's go do this. And it just felt like, you know, when I was 10 years younger, skating cities and. That kind of thing. So I would say that there's a not really, really, really a practical line, but really an emotional feel that I get from gravel riding that connects to skateboarding.

[00:07:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that lands with me.

**** - (): I mean, I think as I think about designing routes for my own personal use in any given week, there's some creativity in looping together the trails, the roads, the mountain bike, single track sections, and. A given route in a given area of our little mountains here can feel radically different depending on how you approach it and what you tie together with it.

**** - (): And I think much like skating where bringing your crew on an adventure, like you're taking the lead and you're like, Hey, I found this spot and then let's skate over to this spot. Gravel ride route planning and bringing a group out there. I think it's quite similar in that you just want to show them a new way to experience the, you know, the terrain around your house.

[00:08:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it's really fun actually. Um, as I've gotten into gravel riding, I'm, uh, connecting, uh, through Instagram, but a whole bunch of different ways with skaters that I used to skate with back in the day that also bought gravel bikes and, uh, that are cruising around and they're hitting trails in the city and doing things.

**** - (): Actually, you want my one friend just posted on Instagram, uh, on his gravel bike. He's got a really nice titanium gravel bike, but he's like riding downstairs and like, um, doing little ollies on banks and stuff. And I'm like, dude, you're skating on your bike. That's hilarious. It's hilarious. that escape deal, but he's doing it on a gravel bike.

**** - (): Right. So he's got the same adventure.

[00:08:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I love it. I love it. We're going to get into a great gravel event that you're organizing for this may, but I wanted to tease out earlier in your life, You know, Had you been producing events and had you had any experience doing events before kicking this one off?

[00:09:16] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Um, I've, uh, I'm kind of an event planner. Um, a lot of my career has been spent in the nonprofit world. And, uh, so I actually kind of helped found a skateboarding nonprofit within a larger nonprofit organization. Um, so I was doing a lot of skateboarding events and doing a lot of fundraising events for the larger umbrella organization as well.

**** - (): And, uh, as I got more into my career, I became better at it. So I kind of moved up into more senior circles in those nonprofits that I was working for. So a lot of the events that I was running, um, especially towards the end of my nonprofit career, uh, were, um, fundraisers and, uh, they were the classic peer to peer, you know, I'm going to do this a hundred kilometer, uh, cycling event and I'm going to raise money for this cause it's going to be great.

**** - (): And so I did, uh, a lot of those. And over the years, I kind of honed that to doing a lot more kind of bespoke tours where we'd get a small group of people. They'd raise a lot of money each and it wasn't a huge amount of people because we thought we could provide a better experience by doing something smaller, uh, really intentional with our, uh, with our friends that would want to ride with us and we'd still raise a lot of money and it was great for the organization.

**** - (): So I have a history in that, um, and, uh, that. I guess. And well, as well as that, the last couple of years, I was hosting specific gravel races. And again, they had a fundraising component to them, uh, but they were a lot more in the, they were increasingly becoming more sport oriented. And, uh, that was partly intentional on my part.

**** - (): And we can talk about that later, but I found that there's a, an odd space that the cycling community, specifically the gravel community sits in where it's, um, uh, It's attractive to both people in the nonprofit realm who see something like a gravel event as something dynamic and a vital, like a community with lots of vitality in it.

**** - (): And they want to be a part of that because it's an exciting thing that can represent their nonprofit through which they can raise money. So that's one way of looking at that community of cyclists. The other is through the business realm that sees it as, Oh man, this is a great marketing opportunity for me to sponsor races or to put my name on it.

**** - (): Our brand on this cool new community. And, uh, for my, from my perspective, the races that I was organizing, I just really felt like the organizations that I was helping produce these events for didn't understand the community of cycling and they weren't treating it well enough. They weren't going through the due process of looking on the race calendar.

**** - (): Are we intersecting with another race that's happening in the same city? Are we actually doing the due diligence to get permits properly, to make sure the police know about our presence on the road? Are, do our cyclists know how to ride properly on these, on these trails? Um, And I'd get calls from mountain bikers or gravel cyclists after and be like, Hey, what's going on?

**** - (): I heard about this event and people on the, you know, on my favorite trail are complaining about all the cyclists on the trail. I just realized, Oh man, through a good intention of doing a nonprofit work, raising funds through cycling, we're actually doing a disservice to the community of cyclists. Through it.

**** - (): And I really wanted to address that in the events that I do to be able to create an event. That's actually not just something that you show up to do your race and you're gone and not something that you show up to because you have this other thing that you're raising money for, but to have something that really honors the community and says, this is something amazing.

**** - (): We're all passionate about this. Let's build a community and let's make this community amazing. So that's a long answer to your story about my history and running events.

[00:13:06] - (): Craig Dalton: So, I mean, let's name, let's name, let's talk about good ride gravel. Yeah. Like let's talk about one, you know, you talked about some of the motivations about why you created it, but let's kind of dig into that.

**** - (): Let's dig into, What's your vision for this event this May?

[00:13:24] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, we are basically hosting a kind of a sport forward event that really focuses on the community of gravel cyclists. Uh, there's a, uh, an increasing amount of them here in the lower mainland in Metro Vancouver area. And, uh, they are an emerging group and they are.

**** - (): Kind of, kind of referencing back to my skateboarding days, they feel like a skate scene in a sense in that it's just this new thing and people are trying to discover what it's all about. And they're really stoked on being able to do things that are, you know, really gnarly in some cases and really smooth on the other adventuring, like what you're talking about.

**** - (): And we want to be able to provide something that is an amazing opportunity, a gravel adventure that has a high end component to it. So you can come, you can race it. We've got podium prizes with cash. Um, so those people on the sharp end of this, uh, of the scene, uh, we've got a couple of pros coming, which is great.

**** - (): And they're pushing their community to come and enjoy it. But on the other end, we have people that have never really tried gravel cycling again. But during COVID they bought a gravel bike and they've been riding it for a couple of years. And now COVID is kind of, we're kind of finding our way past COVID and these people want to get involved in events.

**** - (): They have this passion for cycling. Now they want to find the community connected to that passion. And so whether they're pro cyclists, whether they're sponsored racers or whether they're just those adventure people that want to get out and ride for an entire day and see if they can do it, we're all going to come together at the same point.

**** - (): And we're going to focus on, Hey, this is actually a community thing. It's more than just a race. We're celebrating gravel, but we're celebrating you as an individual. And we're celebrating the fact that you want to be a part of something good. And so that's kind of what it's about. And on top of that, I really believe that when people get together, they want to feel like they're a part of something bigger than just themselves.

**** - (): And so we have a fundraising component to it. I found this really cool, small nonprofit in the city that we're doing this event called Restorative Cycle, and they just work through a restorative justice process to help people that have been, um, that are underserved in the community or that have had issues, uh, in the criminal, um, system.

**** - (): In the past, um, to help them back on their feet by providing bikes for them, programs for them, uh, even like bicycle repair. So we're going to be able to sponsor that group and raise some money for them. But again, it's about a community getting involved to benefit a larger community beyond it. So that's kind of the nature of what the good ride gravel is about.

[00:16:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. And so for this particular event, you're coming at it as a sort of solo operator. You're not confined by previous relationships you had that were defining the event. This can be your baby and your vision, right?

[00:16:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, definitely. That's very freeing in some cases and you know, probably as you know, if you've organized events before, that's also like, Oh, crazy time.

[00:16:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Super scary. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I have a lot of, a lot of respect for anybody who holds up their hand and, and organizes events because it's, it can be thankless work and you just hope that the event day goes off well and you get those, uh, vibes of appreciation from all the riders who have a great day out there.

[00:16:45] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, and you know, it's been fun Craig listening to your podcast and hearing from the other guests that you had their joys and struggles in finding their way through organizing these events running these races been really fun to hear the stories from the people that you're talking about. About these events.

**** - (): And I really, um, I really feel what they're feeling. So I sit right in that too, but I love it. And again, for this event, it's our first year doing this specific event. Uh, our team has run events before, so we're familiar with cycling with gravel cycling, but we're trying something new. And so we're. Being honest that we don't have a lot of resources to make this happen, and we don't have a lot of time because we all have other things that we're doing.

**** - (): I'm not going to make a full time career out of this race. I want to do things along with this. So we're going to keep it sustainable. We're going to start small and we're going to do it really well. And, uh, from there, we're going to evaluate and see, okay, what can we do next year to incrementally build this up?

**** - (): You know, we want to be, I don't want to burn anybody out, including myself. And we want to make sure that our people that come really, really enjoy the vibe of it and feel like, yeah, I could do this again. I could bring a friend next time.

[00:17:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk about the community of Chilliwack BC. Why, why there, what's so special about it from a community perspective and also a terrain perspective?

[00:18:09] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, Chilliwack is again, like it's an hour outside of, uh, Vancouver, British Columbia. It's kind of right on the border. Actually from my house, I can see into the United States, uh, which is kind of fascinating. So it's literally right on the edge and it borders at the very end of the Eastern Fraser Valley, which is a massive river Delta of the Fraser River that comes down into the ocean.

**** - (): So, um, there is a really unique mix of a Dead flat, um, kind of prairie as the Fraser dumps out into the ocean and also it's on the very eastern or the western border of the Cascade mountain range, which goes down into Washington state. And so you get this really interesting, uh, and almost drastic.

**** - (): Confrontation where you'll be riding flat, flat, flat, flat, flat for a long time. There's lots of dike trails around here that are like buttery, smooth, perfect for riding on. It feels great. And then all of a sudden smash you're right on better mountain, which is like, you know, mountain bike heaven for a lot of people in the Vancouver area.

**** - (): And you're climbing serious terrain right now. And it just doesn't stop. And then you're at the forest service roads and. You could literally ride forever from there. Like Canada is a big place and it goes on forever. So there's that really interesting scenario of, uh, you know, something that's really, um, smooth and flat and fast, and also something that's really technical and aggressive, um, for that.

**** - (): So in terms of the, uh, the, uh, the draw it has, it's an emerging community. It's a, it used to be a small kind of a farming city that's turned into a bedroom community of Vancouver. A lot of people are commuting from Chilliwack and Abbotsford, the Eastern Fares Valley to Vancouver, similar to what has gone on with Squamish.

**** - (): And a lot of people call this like the next Squamish, Vancouver's new backyard. In that it's close enough that you can live here. It's a bit cheaper than living in the city and yet you're far enough away that you feel like, Oh man, there's a lot of terrain to explore. Lots of forest service roads, you know, let's just go out and have some fun.

[00:20:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, sounds ideal for those Vancouver based riders and around there who maybe don't know where to go up there to have this as a jumping off point for their exploration of that valley.

[00:20:28] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah.

[00:20:30] - (): Craig Dalton: When you think about the three different routes you've laid out, what were the different goals there? And maybe you can sort of talk about each route in terms of the distance and the amount of climbing you're going to be doing.

[00:20:41] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, sure. And sorry, I don't know miles that well I'll be in kilometers meters. Yeah. So maybe put in the show notes, you could put all the mile or the Imperial stuff. Uh, yeah, we got three routes this, uh, this, for this event in May. And, uh, starting off as we just got our party ride, it's 50 kilometers. It's.

**** - (): Dead flat. It's all on these beautiful, buttery, smooth dike trails. And uh, it's going to be just a fun tour. We've got kind of a bit of a lollipop route that goes out and back, explores a couple different communities. Uh, but it's pretty much all off road. There's a small portion at the beginning, a couple of kilometers that you have to ride on the road, and then it's just all flat gravel.

**** - (): And it's meant to be just something, Hey, I've never done a gravel event before. Oh, I just got this bike and I feel a little nervous, but, um, can I do this? Yeah, I can. It's 50 kilometers. I'm, I got all my friends along. Um, it's going to be great. So we've got a bunch of snack stations and, you know, photo booth kind of things, you know, fun stuff to make it feel like, Oh, this is a fun little event.

**** - (): And it's again, that entry thing that people can do it and feel like, okay, I'm ready for something more challenging next year. So that's our 50k. We just call it the good ride. And, uh, then we have our, what we call our very good ride. I don't know, they're cheesy titles, but whatever. And it's a hundred K and it is kind of a medium course.

**** - (): It starts to explore that terrain that I was talking about. Up the side of mountains. So you're starting on, um, you're doing about, I don't know, five or six K to access the first forest service road. Then you start climbing. It gets a bit intense. You come down, it's great. And then you hit a really heavy climb.

**** - (): You're going to max out at 20 percent on that climb. And it's a mixed terrain, a bit of a technical downhill. And then you get to celebrate the fact that you did those two climbs and that technical stuff with that. gravel dike thing and you're doing the same lollipop route that the 50k people did. So you get a really kind of even mix of, um, some, you know, good single tracks, some good forest service road with the smooth kind of finish, uh, to bring you to the event village again.

**** - (): The big one, which we call our crazy good ride is, um, it's going to be 150 kilometers and it's about, uh, just over 2000 meters of elevation, probably 2200 meters of elevation. And that elevation is serious. Like it, uh, it, it's a good. Wall in front of you, uh, great forest service roads with all kinds of mixed terrain.

**** - (): You're just right from the start going hard and going up and down and up and down and experiencing everything out here. It's wet. It's like rainforest. So there's no big sprawling gravel roads. It's like, okay, you've got the tree canopy. You're in this Emerald green forest and there's moss and ferns everywhere.

**** - (): And you're riding mixed terrain, some mud, some gravel, some dirt, All kinds of stuff and it's up and down, up and down, up and down. And, uh, again, you've finished all that after about 90 kilometers, a hundred kilometers, and then you get to ride that really smooth. Um, Dyke lollipop thing to finish again, um, to, to, you know, sprint to the finish, so to speak.

**** - (): So it's a good mix of both for everybody. You get the smooth terrain if you want to just take it easy for the day and do the 50 or you get the hardcore experience of, man, I can't believe I did this for the 150.

[00:24:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's kind of interesting the way you're describing it. I was thinking about, you know, if you're at the pointy end of the sphere, attacking all that aggressive terrain.

**** - (): To begin with for the first a hundred K and then having this relatively in perspective, tame terrain for the last 50 K, it's just going to be really interesting to see how it pans out. Like there's a group of merge from the forest and the climbing, uh, together, or, you know, or the technical riders separating themselves from the pack and then doing a 50 K time trial on the smooth terrain to try to bring it home.

[00:24:42] - (): Dean Dahl: I know. Well, it's very interesting because if you can keep a pack going somehow through that last, uh, that last climb, the last one that's, it's about 450 meters of elevation and then a technical, there's about two kilometers of technical single track to get you back down. To the flat. Um, if you can stay in a group there, then you can draft and it becomes an entirely different race because the last 50 kilometers, it's all, it's, you almost need to be a good road rider to make that happen if you want to finish first.

**** - (): Right. So, yeah,

[00:25:12] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah. It's one of those interesting races. I really enjoyed, for example, my conversation around the rule of three. Growl in Bentonville, Arkansas with Andy Chastain. And it's just fascinating to kind of game play out if you are racing these things. Cause a lot of us go in it and we're just kind of out there to enjoy the ride and test ourselves to see if we can, you know, achieve a crazy good ride.

**** - (): But for those at the front end of the spectrum, it's, it's pretty interesting to kind of game play out where your skillset lies and technical riders are going to have to bury themselves to get enough of a lead that. A pack won't hunt them down in those last 50 K.

[00:25:50] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, yeah, it's totally true. So it'll be really interesting.

**** - (): And again, you know, you're, you're right. Not everybody's going to be racing this, uh, but it's got a great race ability at the front end of the sharp end. Like you say. So it's good. And I've got it all staggered out. So, um, people won't be arriving at the same time in case there's a sprint, but close enough that we'll all be in the event village after the event together.

**** - (): And people can celebrate racers coming in and adventurers coming in at the same time. So,

[00:26:21] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, that was going to be my next question. Just sort of around the race village and what kind of post event atmosphere and shenanigans you have planned for riders.

[00:26:29] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Yeah. Um, again, it's a fairly small event.

**** - (): We're only. Capping it at 200. So, and that's intentional because we need to be able to start small and be sustainable, make sure we do this right. Um, and then we'll start expanding it from there. Uh, but we've got a lot of great sponsors locally. Um, I have a lot of friends in the area and they all are small business owners and they're like, yeah, this is amazing.

**** - (): I want to be a part of this. So we've got an ice cream. This, uh, uh, boutique ice cream place just down the street from where we're going to be starting, uh, has a massive ice cream set up and they're handing you an ice cream cone, you know, and you cross the line. We've also got a local beer craft beer sponsor.

**** - (): That's going to be giving everybody a pint. If you're showing up to race, if you're you register, you got to celebrate with a pint from this brewery. And, uh, we've got a local cafe as well that actually a coffee roaster, that's going to be providing coffee at the event village. And we've got a local cafe that's actually going to be setting up a cafe in the middle of absolutely nowhere on our course at the top of one of the biggest climbs.

**** - (): So you're going to finish this climb and you're going to just feel like you totally. Destroyed yourself and you're going to turn the corner and there'll be tables there. They'll be doing pour overs, there's croissants and scones. They've got the tables, all that kind of stuff for you. So it'll be a fun, really kind of a neat surprise.

**** - (): So the event village is actually spread through the course, so to speak, uh, which will be really fun. We've also got a food truck, uh, I'm going to be having donors and falafels for everyone as well. So, you know, we're just trying to bring the hype and, you know, I'm talking to sponsors locally and just saying, Hey, kind of like what Andy said, actually, in, when you're talking with him, he was so interesting in that he was talking about how he just wants to be able to create a great thing and just let sponsors dictate how they want to bless the event.

**** - (): And, uh, I like that style and I think I'm kind of going for that style too, or. Somebody's got a food truck that serves falafels and doners and shawarma. I'm I'm down. Let's do that. Let's let's figure something out. Right.

[00:28:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. You

[00:28:34] - (): Dean Dahl: have a cafe. Let's set up a cafe in the middle of the route. That'd be amazing.

**** - (): So yeah, so that's kind of the event village feel.

[00:28:41] - (): Craig Dalton: That sounds awesome. When you think about the community, is this the type of community? And I often like think and talk about this. Like when you have a rural community and you stand up an event like this, yeah. All the businesses around town are like, bring it on, like no downside.

**** - (): This is awesome. Anything that will bring people to the community. Does Chilliwack have that vibe? Or is it still close enough to Vancouver where there's a little bit of like, actually, we don't want a lot of more people discovering us.

[00:29:09] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, there's a bit of that vibe and, uh, Chilliwack, again, like I said, it's a, it's an emerging community.

**** - (): It's probably, you know, close to a hundred thousand people. So it's actually not a small town. I mean, well, maybe that is a small town compared to some places. Um, but it, uh, yeah, it sits in an awkward, uh, Spot and it's discovering itself and there's some really great things happening and there's also a oh man A lot of people from the city are moving out here, you know It's the roads are a lot less quiet than they used to be our trails you know, I used to ride my horse on this trail all the time and now there's You know, people running all the time and cyclists all the time.

**** - (): So there's a bit of that thing. And also, um, again, Chilliwack is discovering itself in terms of how to be a community as it grows. And it's fascinating. Like, yeah, I love the idea of watching, um, cities grow and the urban planning idea fascinates me. And I'm seeing it on a local level in this city, which has got some really great, um, potential, uh, to see people really want to adopt this as their spot.

**** - (): At the same time trying to struggle with the people that have always lived here who are saying well we don't want it not in our town like we don't need another race we got two races already so there's both the yes let's get involved let's do this and also the well just do your thing and that's kind of it that's kind of a Vancouver thing too the west coast of Canada is very much like uh yeah you just do your thing and you know just leave me alone and just do it whatever.

**** - (): So

[00:30:41] - (): Craig Dalton: that brings up a question around land access, you know, any issues around getting on the land that you want to, that you're going to do the event on? Is it land that we can go out and ride today?

[00:30:53] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, well, that's a great question. And we are actually really excited because we are actually on the lands of the Stolo people, the traditional ancestral people, the Solo nation and the Swahili nation.

**** - (): And, uh, they have been really gracious in being allow us right down to being able to use some of the roads in their community that we can pass by on our route. Um, so we're very excited to be able to, um, kind of honor these communities and recognize them at the same time as being able to practically make use of the, the roads in their communities at the same time.

**** - (): So that's good beyond that too. Um, we're actually working with. Five different jurisdictions of ownership are stewardship of the various lands that we're going to be on everything from the city of Chilliwack to the regional districts to different communities that have different park zones and things.

**** - (): So the permitting process is extensive, and I was actually working on that a lot this morning just before talking to you. Um. It's exciting to do because you get to spread the word about a cool event and these people are like, yeah, that's amazing. Have you dotted this T by or dotted this I by the way, but what you're doing is great.

**** - (): Keep it going and fill out this form. As long as they

[00:32:07] - (): Craig Dalton: keep saying yes, it's

[00:32:10] - (): Dean Dahl: when the

[00:32:10] - (): Craig Dalton: fourth land manager says no and you're just like, wait, I have this great route that needs your section of land.

[00:32:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, that's totally true. But you get through that. You just got to take your time and, uh, you pay a little bit of money along the way for it, but you just do the due diligence, right?

**** - (): And you, you know, respect the process and then it's all good.

[00:32:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, I love what you're working on up there, Dean. It looks like a great event and from everything you've described, looks like an amazing piece of Canada that we should be exploring on our gravel bikes for sure. And I love, I love that you come with a different sports mindset as well.

**** - (): Obviously you've been around bikes your whole life, but having that skateboard influence, I always think it's interesting and refreshing when event organizers have. A totally different context for what an event can be. Like you can only imagine as a cyclist, like what a skate event might look like versus a cycling event.

**** - (): So bringing that unique mindset, I think is, is something new and great that you're bringing to the gravel community.

[00:33:16] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. I mean, it's all I know is like skate scene and my experience in cycling. So I'm just going to do what I do, but we'll find out. It's cool or not. And my team is, they're, they're not skaters, uh, but you know, they're like, Oh, that sounds cool.

**** - (): Let's do that. That'd be amazing. I've never seen that in a sailing race before, but whatever, it'll be great. I love

[00:33:37] - (): Craig Dalton: it. Yeah, for sure. Well, best of luck. We'll make sure everybody knows about your event on May 11th ticket. There's still some slots available, so we'll put a link to registration in the show notes for everybody.

[00:33:49] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, that'd be amazing. Craig, great to talk with you. Love your podcast. Keep it going. I know that's a lot of work and, uh, but keep at it because you're exploring something really interesting. And like I said before, the community around gravel cycling is so vibrant and it's growing and, uh, you know, you're a great voice to represent all kinds of things in this community.

**** - (): So thank you.

[00:34:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I appreciate the kind words and I appreciate you sharing everything you did today. Thanks, Dean.

[00:34:17] - (): Dean Dahl: All right on.

 

 

In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andrew L'Esperance, a professional cyclist from Canada. Andrew shares his journey in the world of cycling, starting from his early days racing with his brothers to becoming a professional athlete. He discusses the challenges and opportunities he has encountered along the way and how he has managed to make a career out of his passion for cycling. Andrew also talks about his transition to gravel racing and the different strategies and equipment choices involved in this discipline. He shares his experiences in races like Unbound and Sea Otter Classic and provides insights into the world of professional cycling.

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About the Guest(s):

Andrew L'Esperance is a professional cyclist from Nova Scotia, Canada. He grew up in a family that spent a lot of time outdoors and started racing bikes at the age of 12. Andrew has been racing ever since, climbing the ladder and participating in various disciplines such as road cycling, cyclocross, and mountain biking. He holds a degree in mechanical engineering and has always had ambitions to be a full-time athlete. Andrew has raced for Norco Bicycles and is currently racing for Maxxis Factory Racing. He has also ventured into gravel racing and is excited about the opportunities it presents.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andrew L'Esperance, a professional cyclist from Canada. Andrew shares his journey in the world of cycling, starting from his early days racing with his brothers to becoming a professional athlete. He discusses the challenges and opportunities he has encountered along the way and how he has managed to make a career out of his passion for cycling. Andrew also talks about his transition to gravel racing and the different strategies and equipment choices involved in this discipline. He shares his experiences in races like Unbound and Sea Otter Classic and provides insights into the world of professional cycling.

Key Takeaways:

• Andrew L'Esperance started racing bikes at a young age and has been racing ever since, participating in various disciplines such as road cycling, cyclocross, and mountain biking.
• He has always had ambitions to be a full-time athlete and has found ways to make it work alongside his engineering degree.
• Andrew's transition to gravel racing has opened up new opportunities and challenges, and he enjoys the adventure and technical aspects of this discipline.
• He emphasizes the importance of equipment choices in gravel racing, including tire selection and the use of suspension forks.
• Andrew's favorite gravel races include Unbound and Sea Otter Classic, where he enjoys the competitive atmosphere and the chance to showcase his skills.

Notable Quotes:

• "I've always ridden a drop bar bike off-road. My first bikes were mountain bikes, and then I started doing cyclocross, which was my road bike, my winter bike, my cross bike. So, I've always had that mix of riding different disciplines on the same bike." - Andrew L'Esperance
• "I love the adventure of riding a bike, and it's a lot easier to find adventure on a gravel bike. In general, in the places that I spend the most time riding." - Andrew L'Esperance
• "If it's going to give you an advantage in the race, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, and it needs to be at the right time in the race." - Andrew L'Esperance on using a suspension fork in gravel racing
• "Gravel racing is a combination of endurance, technical skill, and equipment choices. It's about finding the right balance and making the most of each race." - Andrew L'Esperance

Transcription:

 

[TRANSCRIPT]

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Andrew, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Craig. Yeah. I'm excited to have this conversation. I know you're, you're off to Europe tomorrow, so I appreciate you squeezing us in before you

[00:00:13] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: go. Yeah. Thanks for you making it happen too. I think you were just on traveling as well. So thanks for making it work with your

[00:00:20] - (): Craig Dalton: schedule.

**** - (): Yeah, absolutely. We always like to start off by learning a little bit more about you. Where, where'd you grow up and how'd you originally find the bike?

[00:00:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Uh, I grew up on the east coast of Canada, uh, in the province of Nova Scotia, just outside the main city there, which is Halifax. Uh, and yeah, kind of grew up in a family that, you know, spent a lot of time outdoors and we rode bikes together as a family on vacations.

**** - (): And I'm the youngest of four boys. In the family, so I have three older brothers, and as you can imagine, like, I just looked up to my brothers big time, and especially my oldest brother, and he did a bike race once, so it was basically like, oh, I've gotta do a bike race, and yeah, I just kind of did my first race when I was 12, and ran, what's that, and, um, I've been racing ever since, kind of climbing the ladder, doing some education in there.

**** - (): Uh, but yeah, just been racing ever since and obviously like sprinkling some other sports in there early on.

[00:01:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, was Nova Scotia the type of area where youth cycling was easy to come by? I wouldn't say it

[00:01:35] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: was easy to come by. Um, I think, I think I was, like, fairly self motivated, like, to make, to make it happen, and had some good support from my parents to make it happen.

**** - (): Um, but there's definitely a tight knit community, and I think they certainly took me under their wing, for whatever reason. And, yeah, helped me, helped me Come up in the sport, but I guess the first race I did was a Tuesday night short track series. So from that perspective, certainly, um, that's like, that's a really great entry point for use.

**** - (): To the sport. Um, when you say, um, when you say kind of youth programming, I kind of think about like a bike club or that sort of thing for like specifically for youth, because we see a lot of that around now. And there was certainly nothing like that. But that kind of forced me to kind of ride with the older, older people, uh, that were definitely better than me and that kind of helped pull me along in the sport early on for sure.

[00:02:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Were you sort of racing consistently at that young age or did it take some time before you kind of really committed to a season?

[00:02:55] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, I mean, I think when I did my first race, I was still doing other sports. Like, so I was definitely not like full on right away. Um, but it was definitely a slow process to get into it.

**** - (): Like the, it was more like regional racings first. I don't think I did any provincial level racing when I was 12. It was, it was, the racing I did was the short track series. It was like for, you know, eight or 10 weeks in the summer. And that was, that was the racing and it was, yeah. Like that was the season, uh, and then I just got more and more into it.

**** - (): And next year I did provincial, provincial level races. Then probably when I was 15, um, I went outside the province to race. And by that point, it was kind of like doing every kind of racing that I could, uh, coming from a smaller province. You know, there's not, there's not a ton of racing, but, um, so you kind of need to do all the things.

**** - (): So like do road, do cyclocross, do the mountain bike racing, do the group rides, all those things. Um, and yeah, that's how it, that's how I kind of started things off there.

[00:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: And at what point did you start to see professional cycling as a career opportunity?

[00:04:19] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. To be honest, maybe, maybe I just have started to see it as a legitimate career opportunity in the last couple of years, you know, I, I have a degree in mechanical engineering.

**** - (): It was sort of, um, that was always kind of the way I was going to make, And I never really saw bike racing as a way to make money, but I loved it and I could make it work. Um, and I, I do think I did have ambitions to somehow figure it out to be a full time athlete, whether, you know, putting that professional label on it.

**** - (): Um, it's kind of, I feel like that's kind of different. Um, but yeah, I definitely wanted to be a full time athlete. It's a really, It's a really great lifestyle and just, I've just been chugging along trying to figure out how to make it work. And I would say in the last five years, um, Yeah, I figured that out and

[00:05:27] - (): Craig Dalton: were you figuring that out from a, you know, what's known as a privateer perspective or five years ago, would you enter a team program?

**** - (): Um,

[00:05:36] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: yeah, not definitely not as a privateer. Uh, so previous, so I'm currently racing for Max's factory racing, uh, and this will be my third year on the team. And prior to that, I raced for Norco bicycles in various capacities for about 10 years. Uh, kind of finishing my career with them on the Norco factory team.

**** - (): Those years, there was a period where there was, um, growth in the team and they went to another level. They stepped up to the world cup level and that meant reducing the team size. And that left me without sort of factory team support for a couple of years. Um, and at that time, um, you know, I wanted to keep racing.

**** - (): So it was sort of like, okay, how do I do this? How do I keep doing this? And I created, or myself and a teammate created our own team called forward racing, brought in some other sponsors and kept the support from Norco. And so in a sense, that was sort of privateering, but it was also like, okay, I'm putting, we're putting in all this work to organize this sponsorship.

**** - (): Hey, let's support another rider to, or, or a couple other riders, like bring them up with us. Um, so myself and my teammate brought on a younger athlete named Sean Fincham. And we supported him for two years.

[00:07:10] - (): Craig Dalton: Uh, that sounds like the racing we've been talking about has been on the mountain bike side. And since the listeners of this podcast may not necessarily be as familiar with that part of the sport, can you describe the type of mountain bike racing that you found yourself competing

[00:07:25] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: in?

**** - (): Yeah, totally. Yeah, so XCO mountain biking, it's, it's what's in the Olympics. It's kind of the short 90 minute race, uh, done on a short course, you know, three to five kilometers. You do, you know, five to seven laps. It's intense, there's technical features, that's the kind of racing I grew up on, and that was sort of, yeah, that, that was the racing that was available when I was coming up in the sport.

**** - (): And there's a pretty clear plan within Canada, you know, to do a national series, which is called the Canada Cup, and to perform at those races, and then you might get selected to do something with the national team, like an international race. You kind of just, uh, some opportunities open up that way. Um, and so, so that's, that's the kind of racing I grew up doing.

**** - (): That's the kind of racing I did for the majority of my career. And yeah, until I signed with Max's factory racing, uh, three years ago. That was my main thing doing, you know, I did it to the level that I was racing World Cups full time

[00:08:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And so was it

[00:08:43] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: yeah, I mean, it's so funny like You know, we've always, ever since I can remember, I've ridden, ridden a drop bar bike off road.

**** - (): I, my first, I, you know, my first bikes were mountain bikes. And then, you know, you're, you're doing mountain bike racing and you need to, you need to do some road riding. So that actually started for me with cyclocross. So my, my cyclocross bike was my road bike. It was my winter bike. It was my cross bike.

**** - (): And obviously you're riding that off road. Um, yeah, there's where I grew up in Nova Scotia. There's just plenty of bike paths, like gravel bike paths and gravel roads to ride. So, yeah, I would say it started with that early on. Um, and I guess more recently, um, Just like training, like for training opportunities, a gravel bike was just a good tool.

**** - (): Um, when I was training for XCO racing gravel bike, it just opens up the routes you can ride. You can ride on potentially safer routes. Uh, with less traffic and it's just a whole lot of fun. And I do, I like, I love the, the adventure of riding a bike and it, it's a lot easier to find adventure on a gravel bike, I feel, um, in general, in the places that I, you know, spend the most time running.

**** - (): Gotcha.

[00:10:21] - (): Craig Dalton: And was when you signed on with Maxis Factory Racing, was gravel racing an original part of the deal when they looked at you as an athlete?

[00:10:32] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Um, it was definitely, um, you know, the team has always been focused on the mountain bike side of things. But, uh, the Uh, yeah, the, the way the market, or like the way the racing is in North America, it's, it's more like this off road racing.

**** - (): So it's not all mountain, a lot of the biggest races are no crawl races. So, yeah, I mean, that was definitely part of the conversation. Um, And it was certainly something I was very interested in. I actually, I think I've shared this on a podcast before, but, um, about three years prior to, uh, you know, stopping my Racing World Cups full time and signing with Maxis and doing the off road thing, um, I had an unbound, uh, like lottery, lottery registration Okay.

**** - (): That I got.

**** - (): I was never able to make it work with my schedule, and then the pandemic got mixed in there too. And I just never got to use it. Um, the year that I could have used it, um, was the year I signed with Maxis and we were going anyways. And Maxis was a sponsor of Unbound, so. You know, we had, we had entries that way, so I ended up giving it away, but, um, long story short, this, this kind of racing was on my radar for a while.

**** - (): Um, I think I was just before we started recording here, I was telling you. Um, you know, this adventure, I got, my interest got, uh, shifted towards some of this adventure racing back in 2017 when I did the Croc Trophy. It's an eight day mountain bike stage race across, um, tropical North Queensland in Australia.

**** - (): And, yeah, just, just this, uh, very different racing compared to XCO. It's an adventure, um, and I just, I just loved it. Uh, so ever since 2017, I've been, myself and my wife, Haley, have been trying to mix in these different race opportunities that are, that I would categorize as kind of adventure racing. So Stuff like, um, Epic Israel, we've done that a couple times, Swiss Epic, um, BC Bike Race, these sorts of things.

**** - (): And it's, I feel so lucky, I mean I'm still, I'm so fired up on what we're doing now, cause it's basically Those adventure races, but that's the full meal deal. Like that's what we're doing full time. Yeah.

[00:13:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Now I think you've been part of the grand Prix for two years already, and you'll be in it again in 2024.

**** - (): Is that

[00:13:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: right? Yeah, exactly. You got it. How did

[00:13:31] - (): Craig Dalton: you manage to kind of make that schedule work and hit those mountain bike races that you like? Obviously the. The Grand Prix itself is not mountain bike heavy. There's a few occasions to ride your mountain bike, but not in the same way you had done in the past.

**** - (): I'm just curious, you know, obviously with the different skill sets required for the different types of racing, how you organized your year and your training. So you can do things from, you know, 90 minute XC races to 10 hour unbounds. Yeah,

[00:14:00] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: I don't, I honestly don't know how we did that first year. We went in like, okay, let's do all the racing and that's, that's what we did.

**** - (): We, that first year we still had, well, I say we, cause Haley and I have been on this journey together and we, we, we jumped from XCO racing to this more off road stuff together, but yeah, that year we did five world cups, uh, alongside. The Grand Prix alongside a smattering of other races. And I think it was a big year of learning, uh, which was amazing.

**** - (): It was, there was so much newness to it all, which was also like super refreshing. Um, I think I remember kind of reflecting on the season at the end of the year. And I like, I color coded all the races that I did based on which ones were new. And it was like, over half of them were brand new. And it was a large number of race days.

**** - (): It was like, it was above 35 racing days and there was some stage racing in there. So it's a, it's, it's a little different, but, um, just a lot of racing. And yeah, I don't, I don't really know how we did it. I can't, I can't pinpoint to like, there was, there was no, there was no major thought put into the scheduling.

**** - (): It was like just saying yes.

[00:15:30] - (): Craig Dalton: If we can be there, we'll be there and pedal

[00:15:33] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: totally, totally. And it was a ton of fun. Um, it ended up working, it ended up working out in, in general, um, in terms of like performance in the grand Prix. But again, I think the, the love, like the level of all, all this racing is, is increasing and I, I don't think that approach is.

**** - (): is going to work again. Um, I mean, yeah, so there's definitely some lessons from the first couple of years and, um, I'm not, I'm not prepared to like throw all my eggs in the You know, just focus on the Grand Prix races. There's so, there's so many great events out there. Um, and you know, I also want to, want to continue to grow as a mountain biker and do challenging mountain bike events that really suit my, um, kind of my natural skillset and some of my best, uh, some of my strengths as an athlete.

**** - (): So, so yeah, we're definitely mixing or I'm mixing a lot of different events in this season along the Grand Prix.

[00:16:46] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, interesting. It'll be great to follow your season. Yeah, it's complicated. I can see, you know, over the last three years, going to the third year of the Grand Prix here. There's definitely been this specialization.

**** - (): Obviously, there's a lot of prize money on the line for those who do well and get into the top whatever that gets paid out, but it is Increasingly clear that a lot of athletes are just laser focused on it. And I think it's still going to be interesting this year to see those athletes who are out there doing their own thing and racing some other crazy races, as well as popping into these races and see how the points end up shaking up throughout the year.

**** - (): It's, it's an interesting equation. It's fascinating to me, listening to the athletes, figure out how to focus their time and energy. Yeah, totally.

[00:17:32] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: And I mean, I think it's, it is, it is interesting because like, you know, the racing that we're doing, it's, uh, the Grand Prix is this, it is the series in North America right now.

**** - (): Yeah, so there's just so many other good events. And, you know, I don't think any athlete is just doing the Grand Prix. And it is interesting to see, to spread, um, To see how athletes kind of spread their time and, and where their interests lie and, and all that. So it is cool to follow that, follow each athlete, um, doing what they're doing alongside the, alongside the Grand Prix.

[00:18:11] - (): Craig Dalton: I also think it's interesting with the two drop races to just sort of see how the strategies play out. You hope that people aren't dropping them because they're sick or injured and they get an opportunity to strategically say, Hey, I'm not going to peak for that race because in the overall arc of my season, it just doesn't make any sense.

[00:18:29] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is, it is a, I mean, the season, the season goes from April till end of October, and this is a long season. Uh, so, yeah, and you can't, you need to be very good for all these races, and it's not possible to be kind of peaked. For every single race. So yeah, yeah, definitely some strategy involved.

**** - (): And, um, I certainly learned a lot the first couple of years. Uh, things went pretty well the first year, not so well last year. And it kind of, uh, it definitely has me. Motivated to try to try to perform kind of do all the right things to perform Well all season long for that.

[00:19:14] - (): Craig Dalton: Are there specific races in the Grand Prix that you personally enjoy the most?

[00:19:20] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, certainly like sea otter classic. It's definitely the most mountain bikey one. It's at sea level And I I really love the race course to be honest. It's just yes super fast fun riding Um It's not one where you can really, it's not like you can rip, rip this technical section and create a huge separation on, on the people you're truly racing against.

**** - (): Obviously there's some big gaps in skills between, um, perhaps those with a mountain bike background and those with a gravel background. But, um, it's, You can't, there's not a huge, huge opportunities for separations there, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's an awesome race and yeah, just the energy at that whole event with the festival alongside of it, it's, it's pretty cool.

**** - (): And it's kind of like the season kickoff too. So that's, that's exciting.

[00:20:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. And anything on the gravel bike side that you look forward to?

[00:20:23] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Um, I mean, definitely Unbound, just like the, the scale of it. Uh, I would say that that one's high on the list. And, uh, yeah, Big Sugar's a cool one too. I mean, I, I do, I'm still, like, I feel like I'm a beginner at this gravel stuff, and I'm still, um, I don't really have it figured out yet, to be honest.

**** - (): And So all these races still feel like, like opportunities and they're very interesting to me. And, uh, yeah, so, um, yeah, I guess Unbound and, and Big Sugar are probably my favorite gravel races in the series.

[00:21:05] - (): Craig Dalton: With Unbound being the longest one on the calendar on the gravel bike, uh, side for the Grand Prix, how do you, how do you approach that as an athlete?

**** - (): I mean, obviously you train up to that distance. When you think about being competitive in an event like that, just kind of walk me through briefly, like the mindset of like, you know, are you following the early moves or are you conscious of Hey, this is a 200 mile day. And, you know, maybe I'm not the most in, I don't have the most endurance of everybody in the, in the Peloton.

**** - (): I'm just curious, like how you manage that to maximize the best result possible for you.

[00:21:42] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I go into those races, I'm not, there's no, there's no pacing. It's going with the front of the race as long as you can. There's, there's no, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna try to make the front group. I'm gonna try to get on the podium.

**** - (): I'm not going to have a deliberate strategy to not follow so I can, you know, finish 20th. Like that's, I'd, I'd much rather go for it and blow up than, than not go for it. Um, that being said, I do, you know, we learned last year that there is definitely some in terms of taking care of equipment in certain, um, conditions like, you know, very rough conditions, muddy conditions, there, there does have to be some strategy surrounding how you ride that stuff.

**** - (): Um, so I'm definitely. taking that into Unbound this year, just that, that whole experience. Um,

[00:22:45] - (): Craig Dalton: and you caught up in any disastrous way in the mud this past year?

[00:22:49] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, just, I lost my derailleur, um, very early on. Um, I just kind of snapped off in the mud and it was, uh, Was

[00:22:58] - (): Craig Dalton: that game over for you?

[00:23:00] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yes. I, yeah, I, I tried everything I could to try to, um, keep it going, but yeah, it was game over and it was just very, um, that, that was tough, I guess.

**** - (): Uh, I definitely learned from that experience because I had never dealt with that kind of mud before and it's really something you need to experience to fully understand. Um, And yeah, so, um, yeah, looking forward to going in there a little more prepared and having those experiences under my belt and yeah, hopefully a little bit of luck too.

**** - (): But you know, I think in chatting with my friend, Ian, who did quite well, he was, who's done in Boswell, who's done quite well at that race. His, his strategy was. Just kind of, um, sitting back and watching a little bit how, how those, the first section played out, and definitely a more conservative approach, but I was, I was like third wheel into that mud, riding on Tobin's wheel, um, I think when my derailleur came off, I was sitting on Russell or Keegan's wheel and just run, just run the race as best as I could and going for it.

**** - (): Yeah. Those conditions, you know, if my bike can make it through it, it's a huge advantage for me. Um, just cause that is, you know, some technical. Technical ability is a huge asset, just pedaling the bike through that stuff, but you need to have a bike that stays together, um, to take advantage of those, uh, that, that opportunity.

**** - (): Yeah, a hundred

[00:24:52] - (): Craig Dalton: percent. I'm, I'm one of those sort of people who started out mountain biking like yourself, and I love I love the technical elements of gravel racing and the harder technically the races are, the more fun I think they are. Totally. That's the, that's sort of where I hope the sport would go.

**** - (): And frankly, you know, as the Grand Prix got announced, like I've, I've always been hopeful for the mountain bikers to get more of an opportunity, not only in the mountain bike specific races, but in the gravel races to just kind of show that skillset.

[00:25:24] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm with you on this. I, I would really. I would really like to Yeah, maybe just see a little more texture in some of these gravel races I I really like what the bwr does pulling in some single track Uh, yeah, I did A couple years ago.

**** - (): I did It's in BC called BCBR Gravel and, you know, BCBR is a BC bike race. So it's the same promoters that do this, you know, um, seven day mountain bike stage race. So the gravel version of it was, was what you can expect from the organizers of a mountain bike stage race. And it was very gnarly. I kind of joked at the race.

**** - (): Uh, like I wrote a, I wrote a taper cast, the Fox taper cast fork. During that race and it was like, oh man, if you had a, if you had a truck full of those at the finish line of that race, you could have sold them all. No worries. It was like a huge advantage to have, uh, Uh, yeah, have suspension on the gravel bike.

[00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so interesting. Do you ever, you know, as someone who's obviously well adept with suspension and using it on your mountain bikes, how often do you consider it on your gravel

[00:26:41] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: bike? Yeah, it's, it's always a tough, tough decision. And it's like, I've, you know, if I'm not sure if you've ridden it, but riding a suspension fork on a gravel bike is.

**** - (): It's an amazing feeling and it's wild how much more capable the bike becomes. It's 100 percent so much more than what you think.

[00:27:06] - (): Craig Dalton: I've got one on my bike for Mount Tam here in Marin County, and I can't even explain how much more confidence inspiring it is going downhill and. It's kind of cheating for me because I've got a mountain bike background.

**** - (): So generally I ride harder downhill than most of my contemporaries, but putting that suspension fork on, it's just, it's almost unfair at times. Totally. I'm curious to kind of drill into that a little bit as a suspension owner. So what is that? Tell us more about that line for you. I mean, when we would consider it is the main, is the main downside in your mind, just the weight.

**** - (): And if it's a climbing race and you need to stay up at the front, you got to shed the weight and otherwise you'd use it.

[00:27:50] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. So I think, uh, I, I reach for it quite often, uh, to be honest, I, my first year at Unbound, I wrote it. Uh, so that was two years ago and it was. It was a huge advantage in the rough stuff, but the thing is, um, that didn't, that kind of just kept me near the front of the group and out of trouble.

**** - (): It's not like it, it gave me a huge advantage in the race overall.

[00:28:23] - (): Craig Dalton: Do you feel like from a, does it, does fatigue come into play when you think about it? I mean, it's

[00:28:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: so hard to get a sense of that because You know, no, no matter what bike you ride, if you're riding, riding unbound for 10 hours, fatigue is going to be high.

**** - (): Um, I've not done like, I think that would be a fairly hard thing to test. Um, and I've not done like back to back testing on that, but it really does. The way I think about it is if, if it's going to give you an advantage in the race and some, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, and it needs to be at the right time in the race.

**** - (): So like, so I did BWR Vancouver Island last year, and the first, in the first bit, there was, um, some single, some heavy duty single track and I just rode away from the whole race. Uh, And was two minutes off the front by like the bottom, you know, in the first hour of the race, but this isn't super helpful because it's a seven hour race and then I was off on my own for the next few hours.

**** - (): Um, so like from a tactical point of view, that wasn't great. Um, but the final descent on that course was one where having like the final descent, a few K from the finish. Having a suspension fork would have been an advantage. So it's sort of like, okay, do I carry this around for the whole race? It's definitely a little bit heavier, not as aerodynamic, but in those sections, it's like a laughable advantage.

**** - (): Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:06] - (): Craig Dalton: I think that's, I mean, I think it goes with almost every part of a gravel bike. It seems like you just, you have to make these trade offs. And decide where is it going to benefit you like as a recreational racer, I consider comfort to be a big part of it, right? I got to get through these races to, to enjoy them, but comfort at the cost of, you know, an extra pound or so may come to bite me in the ass climbing 12, 000 feet in a day.

[00:30:35] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Maybe. It depends on what your goals are. Like for me, I really need to think this through. But if I was riding my bike for, um, purely for fun and trying to enjoy and especially if I wasn't racing, like suspension fork on the gravel bike, for sure, as long as, as long as the terrain you ride and the way you ride kind of suits it, if you, if you go on to double track and single track, um, and you have access to that in your area and you enjoy that.

**** - (): It's like, yes, get yourself a gravel suspension fork. It's going to be great. You're going to have a huge smile on your face. It's going to be fun. Um, and you'll be able to drop your friends. No question.

[00:31:20] - (): Craig Dalton: I think you've been training this winter down in Santa Cruz, California. Is

[00:31:23] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: that right? Yeah, yeah, we've been, uh, yeah, we did, uh, well, uh, pass through Santa Cruz on, I did this, uh, Rob Britton and I did this ride down the, down the entire coast of California, um, and then spent a week here after that training, and then I've been here for the last couple weeks, so, yeah, uh, basing out of here for quite a bit, and, yeah, just, Yeah.

**** - (): Yeah. Yeah. Really enjoying the kind of road riding here. Amazing.

[00:31:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, before we go, I'm curious to just learn about your bike choices for the year. What, what brands are you riding on the mountain bike and the gravel bike? And what do you like?

[00:32:05] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Uh, yeah, I mean, for, so I don't believe our mountain bike. Sponsor has been made public yet.

**** - (): So I'm going to stay quiet on that, but, um, yeah, we're on, uh, new drop bars bikes for this year and that's around time bikes. Which is, yeah, kind of, um, exciting new, new brand, uh, well, new to us brand, obviously it's a pretty storied, uh, brand that's been around for a while. Yeah,

[00:32:39] - (): Craig Dalton: we just had them on the podcast about a month ago, learning all about the new owner, the manufacturing processes for that bike.

**** - (): I think that the ADHX 45 looks like a rad bike to ride.

[00:32:53] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. No, I listened to that episode. It was great. I, I, I really enjoy kind of hearing the background and the business dynamics of, of, of some of these companies in the industry and yeah, the bike looks really great. I've just seen one once, um, I was down in Bentonville at the end of the season and it looks really good.

**** - (): Uh, so I, I'm very excited to get on one and yeah, really push it. And, uh, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be fun.

[00:33:25] - (): Craig Dalton: Awesome. When do you, when do you think you'll first race on that bike?

[00:33:29] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, we're, uh, first race will be BWR Utah. So yeah, once I got back from Spain after the stage race. Uh, probably spend some time on that, get it set up, get it dialed.

**** - (): And yeah, it'll be a, that'll be a great first one for it. And yeah, I can't wait. Um, it's gonna be good. And

[00:33:49] - (): Craig Dalton: since you're been on the Maxis squad for a few years, which, what are your favorite Maxis gravel tires?

[00:33:57] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Well, the, the new, I mean, the tried and true Rambler, um, you really can't go wrong with that. If you know, you have to pick one tire to do it all, that's going to be it.

**** - (): It's, um, Yeah, just super predictable. Easy to ride. Casing's very good. There's options there, um, you know, for a super heavy duty casing or a, um, you know, a higher TPI casing that's going to be a little more supple. Um, so yeah, Rambler for sure, but the new favorite is definitely the Reaver. Uh, it was released last year.

**** - (): I expect that's going to be the go to, um, for the majority of the racing. And I haven't tried it in a 45 yet. Um, but yeah, really looking forward to that because I do think, um, yeah, just given the tire design, like a fairly kind of a file tread in the middle. I think it's going to scale up pretty good and feel.

**** - (): Um, still roll really well in that larger size, um, whereas sometimes when you scale up on a super hobby tire, um, yeah, yeah. Just the, the speed changes quite a bit with your mountain bike skillset. Sorry, just from the casing and the, and the knob design, I guess.

[00:35:14] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. With your mountain bike skillset, do you feel like that file tread provides you enough kind of traction for most of the gravel races?

**** - (): Yeah, yeah,

[00:35:25] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: I feel like I can, I can run with less for sure just because the, it's, it's just like not a limiting factor for me. Um, I can run, I've, I've raced gravel races on the refuse, which is just a very tough casing, but it's a full, full slick with no shoulder knobs and you, you know, I, I can manage that.

**** - (): Um, you have to ride it a certain way. You can't, you can't push, you can't, you can't push it into the ground and expect that it's always going to hook up. Um, but it's, uh, yeah, it's a good tool for, for certain, for certain situations. And if you, I mean, with, with tire choices at the pointy end of things, you're always, um, you're always trying to choose the fastest one.

**** - (): Um, and, and. Ride it, basically ride it correctly, like manage the tire well. Um, so yeah, you're never, at least I'm not, I'm always kind of pushing the limits on what I can, what I can run for speed and performance.

[00:36:37] - (): Craig Dalton: And what do you think about inserts for gravel racing?

[00:36:40] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, yeah, I've, uh, used inserts quite a bit.

**** - (): Um, typically on the Tannis, Tannis Armor inserts. And, yeah, if there, if it's rough and there's a puncture risk, it's, um, yeah, it's a, it's, it's a, I go for it, um, compared to, I mean, I think inserts, they, they kind of came from mountain bike, but they're actually far more applicable for gravel. Bikes just given the the low volume tire.

**** - (): Yeah, and how how close the rim Like the tires aren't that tall compared to a mountain bike tire So there is there's kind of very little space for the tire deflect before it before it hits the rim and yeah having that cushion there and Yeah, it makes a huge difference. And, um, yeah, tire pressure obviously like pretty important on the gravel bike.

**** - (): And, um, yeah, sometimes lower if you can manage it is, is a lot easier on the body faster. So many, so many little, uh, uh, so many things to think about all the time. And I'm, I feel like I I'm out of practice cause I, I haven't been racing for a few months. Um, so I'm definitely gonna have to brush up on my decision making skills cause the race season's coming and all this stuff really matters.

[00:38:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A hundred percent. Would you consider Unbound one of those courses that warrants inserts?

[00:38:14] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. One, one hundred percent. Both years I've raced it, I've, I've run inserts. It'll be interesting with the North route this year on tire choices and, uh, on suspension choice as well. Um, yeah. Hoping to get there early and kind of suss it out and, uh, and do some testing there because it is, you know, equipment choice there matters and, um.

**** - (): Yeah. North route. I hear it's a little rougher.

[00:38:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. I think that's a good place to end, Andrew. Thanks so much for the time. It was great to get to know you a little bit and excited to follow you throughout the season and maybe run into you at Sea Otter.

[00:38:52] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Sounds good. Thanks very much for having me, Craig.

**** - (): And uh, yeah, I appreciate the time and yeah, see you at Sea Otter for sure.

 

 

 

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.

Episode brought to you by AG1.

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About the Guest(s):

Andy Lydic is a professional cyclist from Boulder, Colorado. He began his cycling journey in high school, transitioning from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing. Andy joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and quickly progressed in the sport. He decided to pursue a career as a professional cyclist and moved to Europe to race for amateur teams in Spain. After facing challenges with team closures, Andy shifted his focus to gravel racing. In 2023, he participated in the UCI Gravel World Championships and had a standout performance as the unofficial under 23 world champion. Andy continues to pursue his passion for gravel racing and aims to make a mark in the professional cycling world.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.

Key Takeaways:

• Andy Lydic's passion for cycling began in high school when he transitioned from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing.
• He joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and received mentorship from experienced cyclists, which helped him progress in the sport.
• After facing challenges with team closures in Europe, Andy decided to focus on gravel racing as a pathway to professional cycling.
• Gravel racing offers a unique combination of physical and technical challenges, making it an exciting and competitive discipline.
• Andy's participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships showcased the potential of gravel racing and its ability to attract top-level riders.

Notable Quotes:

• "I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro... I want to write the story of what is the future of gravel." - Andy Lydic
• "Gravel racing is a true test of a rider's strength, endurance, and technical skills." - Andy Lydic
• "The U.S. has limited opportunities for young American riders to race in Europe, and gravel racing can provide a unique pathway to professional cycling." - Andy Lydic

Resources:

• BMC (Andy Lydic's bike sponsor)
• It Could Be Me (Andy Lydic's title sponsor) 
• Maurten (Andy Lydic's nutrition sponsor)
• Northwave (Andy Lydic's shoe sponsor)

Don't miss this engaging conversation with Andy Lydic as he shares his journey in the world of cycling, his experiences in gravel racing, and his aspirations for the future. Tune in to gain insights into the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.

Automated Transcript (please excuse the typos):

[TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Andy, welcome to the show. [00:00:04] - ():  Andy Lydic: Thanks so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here. [00:00:07] - ():  Craig Dalton: I'm excited to get into a little overview of your career and What's in store for you in 2024. I always love to start these conversations by just learning a little bit more about you. I mean, you've been involved in bike racing for a long time since your junior days, but why don't you just say, you know, where did you grow up and how did you originally get into cycling? **** - (): And we can kind [00:00:26] - ():  Andy Lydic: of go from there. Yeah, totally. So I'm from Boulder, Colorado, grew up here in Boulder, Colorado, and got into cycling in high school, probably my junior year of high school. I used to run track and cross country, and I used to also be a downhill ski racer previous to that, and I was pretty burnt out on track and cross country as a high schooler, just didn't find it that fun. **** - (): And a bunch of my friends were doing high school mountain biking. A couple people that I knew, but weren't really my friends at the time were doing road racing as well. And my dad was pretty into the cyclocross scene here in Boulder. We've got quite a few local events in the front range area. So he got super into that and there was sunshine hill climb my junior year. **** - (): Sunshine's a big climb here in Boulder. It takes like 45 minutes or an hour or something like that. And he was like, yo dude, if you go right up sunshine during this hill climb faster than I do, I'll take you out for a burger and some ice cream. And I was like, yeah, totally. I want to go get a burger and ice cream. **** - (): So I love those dad [00:01:23] - ():  Craig Dalton: incentives. I feel like I had one of those similar ones from my dad to run cross country one year. And it was like, that works for me. It doesn't have to be a big incentive. Just a little one works as a high schooler. [00:01:34] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, just something. So from there, I did the Sunshine Hill climb. I actually thought I was wearing a kit for the first time. **** - (): And I think I was wearing tennis shoes on my mom's road bike. And I was like, you know, it's kind of strange, you know, you're wearing tight clothes biking out in public. But then I thought about it and I was wearing short shorts running. So it's not all that different from there. I decided I wanted to do the high school mountain biking team. **** - (): So I told the cross country coach that I was going to stop running cross country and go to the high school mountain biking team. And from there, I've had a bunch of my core friends who are still a bunch of friends. Now, some of them are really high level racers, mountain bike and road just across the country and across the world. **** - (): So they got me into mountain biking for the first season. I was borrowing bikes from people from, I don't think of the five races in the Nike league, I use the same bike twice my first year, just because I was borrowing bikes from people. And from there, I progressed into, I joined the Boulder junior cycling team and had a pretty good time there. **** - (): I did. Like three races of a cyclocross season, my senior year of high school. And then also did high school mountain biking again that summer following, I was like, yeah, I'm going to get into road too. I'd been training on the road a bit and done a couple of road races with the Boulder junior cycling team and decided from there, like. **** - (): Yeah, let's see what I can do with this bike racing thing, but was still pretty focused on going to college. It was COVID when I chose where I went to school. So I ended up going to CU Boulder. I was debating between a couple schools in California and a couple schools other places in the country and mid COVID I was like, you know what? **** - (): I'm just gonna start here at CU. See how I like it. It'll give me the chance to keep riding and see how much I like riding and from there my freshman year of college. My dream of being a professional cyclist kind of really took off. And from there on, I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I want to be a professional cyclist. **** - (): I want to race on the road. And I want to see how high of a level I can get to at this store. [00:03:28] - ():  Craig Dalton: Interesting. So going back to those Boulder junior cycling days, is that the type of program that is, you know, giving you guidance and really trying to create elite level athletes? I think of sort of the NICA program as like, Great jumping off point, obviously a lot of infrastructure to bring people into the sport and create good vibes around mountain bike racing. **** - (): Was Boulder Junior Cycling kind of a next level of that, which is a little bit more intentional to create elite level cyclists? [00:03:57] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a step up. It's not like what you would see with the old team that used to exist, Lux, or what you'd see with Hot Tubes or something like that. But there was definitely like a lot of really talented guys from Boulder or the front range area who went through the program, guys and girls who went through the program and have stepped up to pro road level racing and pro mountain bike level racing. **** - (): You see a couple of those guys and girls are over racing in Europe now on professional teams. A couple are gravel privateers now. So I don't think the team's intention is to create elite athletes. But I think the Boulder community and some of the mentors like Joe Lewis was my first coach there and he was a pro for quite a long time and had a lot of really cool experiences that he was able to share along with us. **** - (): And it provided the platform of inspiration so that riders like myself and riders like like Bjorn Reilly or Mattie Monroe or Riley Sheehan, all those guys came through Boulder Junior Cycling and now they're racing at the top level of the sport across the world. So it's a bit of the team and I think also just a bit of the Boulder community, pretty high achieving people here. [00:05:03] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I remember moving out to Boulder from the East Coast and immediately being knocked down a peg because there's got such a great scene and such great riding out there. You mentioned starting CU Boulder during COVID. Was the CU Boulder cycling program able to be active during that first year? [00:05:24] - ():  Andy Lydic: They weren't. I don't think or not at least that I was involved with because we started in 2020 fall and then 2021 spring there wasn't really road racing here in Colorado and at that point I was also racing with a club team, the cinch elite club team here in Colorado so I was just racing with them. I was a cat three and then upgraded to cat two my freshman year in college that spring. **** - (): So I don't think the CU team did a whole lot that year, or at least I wasn't super involved with it if they did. And then the fall of my sophomore year before I ended up moving to Europe to start racing, I did collegiate mountain biking. I did like two races just because it was a way to keep me motivated and have fun and been doing mountain bike racing in high school. **** - (): So I was like, I want to keep doing this. It's fun racing on the dirt. I like it. [00:06:13] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it sounds like that experience racing kind of with, with the cinch program and you're moving up through the categories at least said, Hey, I've got some, I've got some potential here taking that potential and then saying, I'm going to move to Europe is a little bit of a leap. **** - (): So can you just talk through like what that looked like and did you just move and then try to figure it out or do you, is there a way that you contacted some programs over to Europe to help you at least have a focus point? [00:06:43] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I sophomore fall was sitting in my dorm room and I was like, I want to go move to Europe and be a professional cyclist. **** - (): Like that's what I want to do. I don't want to go to school this spring. I want to be a pro cyclist. So I went on the databases of email contacts for all the teams in Spain, all the teams in France and all the teams in Italy. And I think I sent like 400 emails to every amateur team I could possibly get the contact to saying, Hey, what's up? **** - (): I'm 19 years old. These are my power numbers, I'm looking to move to Europe, I want to start racing, what can I do? And I think of the three or four hundred emails that I sent, I got like 16 total responses, and of 16 total responses, maybe like five of them weren't immediate no's. And from the non immediate no's, I had like a couple people entertain the conversation. **** - (): They're like, yeah, we might be looking for an American writer. I was like looking at France. I was looking at Italy. I was looking at Spain. I kind of knew I wanted to go to Spain because I speak a bit of Spanish just from high school. And so I was like, yeah, that might be easy. And then I connected with an agent who works with a bunch of the amateur teams in Spain. **** - (): And he got me placed on a team and he was like, yeah, man, like you fly out in February and this team's got housing for you. They'll take you to a bunch of really high level Spanish cup races and stage races across Spain. Like all you got to do is just be ready come February. And it was kind of, it was pretty uncomfortable at first cause I'm sending all these emails to a bunch of people. **** - (): I have no idea who they are, no idea what language they speak. And I'm just the silly American sending English emails saying, what's up? Here's my power file. I don't actually know how relatively good it is, but I'd really like to come race in Europe for you guys. Because that's the dream, isn't it? Like go racing for a European team. **** - (): So then from there, I ended up moving to Northern Spain and racing for an amateur team. And unfortunately that amateur team folded in March, which would be kind of set a precedent for how my amateur racing experience in Spain went on. So I raced with that team from. End of January, beginning of February, until the end of March, they folded. **** - (): I moved from northern Spain to Girona. Started racing with another team and got a really cool experience to go race in Denmark at some UCI races, and also do some other cool Spanish races with that team. And then they folded in July, sitting in Girona, just not sure what to do. And that's kind of what led to the whole gravel idea. [00:09:16] - ():  Craig Dalton: And was that July, 2022, just to try to timestamp it? Yeah, July, 2022. Okay. So you're sitting in, you know, the, the road aspirations are having some, some, uh, detours and some challenges along the way. You're sitting in Girona in July. Um, yeah, talk us through, how did you spend your time the rest of that year? **** - (): Yeah. So. [00:09:38] - ():  Andy Lydic: In the midst of the teams falling apart, I'd moved from the team house in Northern Spain to a friend's apartment in Girona. I was connected with a couple of different people who lived in Girona or spent time there just through Boulder, the Boulder community. A bunch of pro cyclists come and spend time here in Toronto Altitude while they're in the U. **** - (): S. And then one of my friends, Sean, was at CU Boulder and he had an apartment in Girona. So when this team folded, I was like, Hey man, can I come crash with you for a couple of weeks? And in that time, I was just training, hanging out in Toronto, get to meet a whole bunch of pro cyclists, which is really cool. **** - (): And at that time you're enamored because you're like, wow, like everybody here is a pro cyclist. Everybody here knows what's going on. And you found out after a couple months that all factor wears off and you're like, wow, like I'm, I'm just living here. This is pretty sweet. So from that time after the team folded, I came back. **** - (): Or after the second team folded in July, I came back to the US and I knew I had a prospect with a team that was hopefully gonna be starting in the fall of 2022 and gonna be officially a UCI team in the spring of 2023. And so I had that idea in my back pocket, came back to the US when I was back in Boulder for, I think it was like a month and a half total of 2022. **** - (): I raced Steamboat Gravel. I did a pretty decent ride there and that was my second time doing Steamboat Gravel and at that point I was convinced I was racing with this team that was going to be a Conti team. I had a good ride there, went back over to Europe, moved into another apartment in Toronto where I was living with some of the guys that were going to be on that team. **** - (): And we're supposed to be going to university in Girona, and the whole premise of the team was like, you're part of the team, you're going to university, and you got to learn how to become a professional athlete and somebody off the bike as well, which is super cool idea, super cool concept, and I think there's definitely space for a program like that in the sport. **** - (): This one just. Didn't end up working out. So they then fell apart in the fall. And while that was all happening, we were, me and the other guys who were supposed to be routing for the team were kind of like, okay, well we're gonna have to figure out what's next. And some of these guys were like, oh, just gonna go back to the us. **** - (): Other guys were holding on seeing if they could race with other Spanish teams. Spanish amateur teams. 'cause we were all in Spain already. So it just makes sense too. Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I've done gravel a couple times. I've done Steamboat gravel twice, and I did a local race here in Colorado. **** - (): That's pretty fun. And those races are really hard. So I want to see, you know, there's privateers popping up in the U S and there's a booming scene in the U S and there's a couple of races in Europe. What can I do to make, make that an actual thing? So then in the fall of 2022, I got a pretty good result at one of the UCI qualifiers and was able to go to the first ever UCI gravel world championships in Italy. **** - (): And that was a super cool experience because, you know, it was my first ever world championships, my first time ever seeing a bike race at that high of a level. And I was able to ride for the elite team because there hadn't been a whole lot of people who were super interested. Everyone, all the American riders were like, Oh, this is a test event. **** - (): We're going to see where this goes. And I had qualified and I was like, I want to see if I can race for the elite team. So sent some emails back and forth with you and say, cycling, they made that a pretty easy process, but it wasn't really team oriented that year. So we all just showed up, got our own accommodations, our own hotels. **** - (): I traveled with some of the friends I was living with in Toronto and yeah, just had a blast. Like, yeah. What an amazing experience. That whole trip. That race was super cool. And it was my first time getting to race against guys that were that high of a level you got to race against. Yeah. Like Matthew Vanderpool and wow. **** - (): Then our, and Greg Van Avermaet were all there. And then I'm at the back of the field. I didn't know how sick I was, but I had COVID it ended up and I was super sick, ended up DNFing the race. But I look back at that experience and I was like, that was. One of the coolest races I've ever done like standing at the start line, looking at my superheroes. **** - (): That's [00:13:43] - ():  Craig Dalton: pretty sweet. Yeah, it sounds amazing. So it sounds like, you know, you had, it's the end of the season. I think October 2022 would be the timeframe of that UCI world gravel championships. So then you're looking at 2023. Your road program has dissolved at that point. What were your plans for 2023? [00:14:05] - ():  Andy Lydic: Uh, I think it was officially December 15th or December 12th or something like that, that we were told the road program wasn't going to go on, wasn't going to exist. **** - (): So then we were all kind of scrambling and I was, the UCF just announced they're going to do this European gravel series. And I was just kind of stubborn, told my parents multiple times, I was calling them every day, like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And like, well, like you can talk to other teams, start racing for amateur teams again. **** - (): And I was like, no, I'm going to another team that's going to hold again. Like. That's just not something I wanted to keep doing because it while the racing is really cool The life off the bike when you're racing for these amateur teams is it's pretty tough and it can be really isolating and lonely Just you know, you're sitting in a team house Don't have a whole lot of access to a social life a social experience and I knew I was having a really good time in Girona, so I was like I'm gonna stay here in Girona and chase these gravel races So from that point, I was like, okay, well to race gravel, I have to have a bike to do it and I have to have sponsors to support me and I have to have a mission and a vision for what I'm going to do. **** - (): And at that point, I had just started working with a new coach and my new coach at that point was like, yeah, man, like I think there's definitely an opportunity to get to a really high level if you're racing gravel. It's the first time there's like a full UCI series, but. Check it out. Let's see, let's see where you can go. **** - (): Let's see what you can do from it. So I had a lot of really good support from my coach. I had good support from my parents. Um, the first people I started working with were BMC, who I just met in Toronto from just being in Toronto. It's, it's such a funny, small place because. So many people in the bike industry and the professional racing industry live there. **** - (): So being there and that one of the guys who works in marketing, I was able to get a deal with BMC to ride their bikes for the 2023 season. Just having that kind of gave me the confidence that, you know, I'm worth something. I'm able to go out and build my own program and build my own sponsors. And I've been learning how to make sponsor decks from my friends, from my parents. **** - (): I've gotten really good mentorship and how to put together. Like a pitch to a sponsor and say, Hey, this is who I am. This is my mission. This is how I think I can add value. This is what I want to do. And this is who I want to be. Will you help me tell that story? And from there, then I started working with on a roadway safety organization from here in Boulder, who was my title sponsor for last year. **** - (): They're called, it could be me. And they work on. Improving the relationship between roadway users, cyclists, runners, and drivers, and improving safety protocols, local legislation, and stuff like that. And I had those two in my pocket, and they were my biggest supporters through last year, and then I added a couple other sponsors to the line and was able to put together a season that, at first, I was really, really nervous about and really hesitant about. **** - (): And now, I look back on it with a lot of pride, being like, wow, like, It was December 20th, and I had no idea what I was doing. And then by the end of January, I had my first sponsor. And by the end of February, I had two more sponsors. And then the beginning of March, I actually went and raced with an amateur team, some UCI road races in Greece. **** - (): And then flew back to Girona from there, and here the gravel season is. Yeah. [00:17:27] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. I mean, kudos to you for pulling that together after such a tumultuous year. I know how tough it can be for American riders living abroad and especially when you're the team you're trying to ride for, in this case, multiple teams folds right underneath you and you're sort of left with, you know, are the gods telling me something? **** - (): Should I be quitting the sport? Is there no future? So yeah, huge kudos for kind of pushing through that. I'm curious about, you know, awesome that in 2023, you kind of, you know, built this plan and you got some sponsors together. And I know you're going to be pursuing gravel pretty hardcore in 2024 and we'll get into it. **** - (): Is your mindset that You know, there will be multiple pathways for you in the future. Like there's still this idea that you could go race professionally on the road. [00:18:14] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think that's the big story that I want to tell right now. I think right now gravel is a lot of guys exiting the world tour exiting pro teams, whether it's for mountain biking or cyclocross or other pro road teams. **** - (): And they use it as like a stepping stone out of their careers that gives. gravel a lot of validity in the fact that there's a lot of really high level, really talented riders that are doing these races. Like I'm getting to race against Val Verde and I'm getting to race against, um, riders on plenty of world tour teams from Israel to, uh, Alpes and Phoenix. **** - (): Like all these pro world tour teams are sending riders to these gravel races as one off expose. And then you see that at the world champs this year. And so the whole story now that I want to tell, and I knew this since last year as well, like I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro, but now that's kind of the big story I'm trying to push. **** - (): And I've been using this hashtag future of gravel that I've kind of coined and I've got a personal email address, Andy at future of gravel. com. So I'm trying to write the story of what is the future of gravel. And what I believe that to be is because the racing is at such a high level, you get. A really high level physical performance out of a gravel race. **** - (): You know, you're racing for three, four, five, six, seven hours full gas. Like it's a spring classic, but you're also on tricky technical terrain where the requirements, not just that you're a strong bike rider, but that you're. A capable bike rider as well that you're technically skilled and technically talented. **** - (): And I think there's definitely I don't know of anyone who's used gravel to get into a professional cycling organization yet, but I definitely think there's room for it. And if the directors of pro road teams are the directors of pro mountain bike teams. Are taking a look at what is really required to win these races. **** - (): They'll see the power numbers required to do these races is equal to and or greater than that of some of these really high level road races, as well as the fact that. You're getting a really good router if you pull a gravel rider out of the gravel along the road. [00:20:21] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think it's a super interesting discussion, Andy. **** - (): I think, you know, for, for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the road scene, there used to be this tried and true pathway that involved a lot of development programs. And then maybe you get on the development team of a big pro tour team. And then maybe in your mid to late twenties, you were given a shot on the elite level team. **** - (): And the last number of years, obviously on the roadside, we've seen a lot of young athletes just kind of come out of nowhere, whether it's a Pogacar or Tom Pickock, all these riders who they clearly didn't come out of nowhere, but they didn't go through that traditional pathway. So I do think it's fascinating for you to kind of hold up your hand and say, like, I'm going to I'm going to go all in on this gravel in a world where data files can be readily shared with coaches and would be agents and teams. **** - (): They're going to see the amount of power that you can put out there. And to your point, the technical nature of a lot of these gravel races is going to showcase, yeah, you may not be racing, uh, you know, in a one day classic, but you're. On varied terrain with various technical challenges in a big group and a lot of undulation, a lot of technicality, clearly it's showing your professionalism as a, a by Candler. [00:21:37] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, totally. And I think also as an American writer, especially it's, it's incredibly valuable opportunity right now because the U S only really has two development teams, two under 23 development teams for young American guys to get the chance to go over race in Europe. And. You know, as cool as it is to race crits, I'm A, not built to race crits and B, that's not the kind of racing I really want to do. **** - (): And that's really the only professional level of racing that you can do in the U. S. The U. S. is so crit centric that these development teams, which only have a certain number of spots for riders, can only send so many people over to Europe. So, You know, as an American rider, the pathways to getting too professional in Europe, which is where, you know, the money in the sport is the visibility and the sport is the fame and the sport is. **** - (): The pathway to that is pretty limited just because, you know, each team has 10, 12, 15 riders, and there's only two of them. There's one that's purely American and one that's got four or five American riders, but that's it. So I think having gravel as an opportunity to progress to professional could be a really unique, a really unique pathway that won't end up being that unheard of in the future. **** - (): I think if one rider can do it, I'll set a precedent. And then once the precedent's set. You'll see guys who went from high school mountain biking to gravel racing to pro teams more and more because the level of riders in America is really incredible. There's just not a whole lot of road races and there's not a whole lot of opportunity for those riders to get to the European road races where there is the opportunity. **** - (): Yeah, [00:23:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. That's super exciting. Continuing on your 2023 campaign, you got selected for the United States World Championship team once again. So you got to attend your. Second world championships, you mentioned in that first one, which I recall, there wasn't a lot of team camaraderie, um, or alignment with the people participating, but it sounds like from talking to a few of the, of the other athletes in 2023, there was much more of an alignment. **** - (): So can you talk about what it was like racing with that crew and how the day unfolded for you? [00:23:48] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, it was a super cool experience having USA Cycling step up and say we want to go to this race and we know we have riders who can perform really highly in this race. So the US National Championships for gravel was an auto qualifier for the top three positions at that race to get to be on the Elite World Championships team. **** - (): And then everything else was a petition process and going into the petition process, I knew that I had raced more of the UCI gravel races than any other American had. So I thought I had a leg up there, but it ended up being a pretty tough process. And I think it was a tough selection process from USA cycling, because there was definitely a bunch of really deserving guys who applied to be on that elite team and who wanted to go to the world championships that applied for it, but didn't get selected because you know, the team only gets a certain amount of slots. **** - (): And so it was definitely. Definitely fortunate that I was able to get that spot on the elite team again. I think, I think I had earned it just because I had done so many of the UCI races and I had gotten pretty good results at some of them. So from there, the USA team put together an email list and we're all on the same page of Okay, we're going to this race and we want the USA to show up and show up. **** - (): And we knew we had Keegan. He's one of the most talented and one of the strongest riders in the world, just bar none. So we all showed up and USA Cycling had organized a hotel, so a bunch of the riders stayed at the hotel and, you know, they had food and everything for us. We had soigneurs, we had mechanics, and they did a really good job just organizing, putting together. **** - (): Look, we want to perform. This is what it takes to perform. So it was almost like being in a professional team for a week because, you know, staying at the hotel with the guys on the team, that was super inspiring getting to hang out with guys you've raced against, but don't really know was super fun. And then going into the race, we had a plan to ride for Keegan, which everybody was on board with. **** - (): Cause everyone's like, you know, Keegan can podium or if Keegan can win, that means a lot more than. A whole bunch of us getting 30th place. So yeah, it didn't end up working out incredibly well to ride for him. Just because in gravel, I think the nature of the sport is, you know, it is more of an individual race. **** - (): It's more of an individual sport, but we went into it all knowing, like, we're going to try and get our best rider as high up as possible. And that result, Deacon had a really great ride. He finished fifth on the day. And then the other American boys had a really good ride and I had a ride. I'm super proud of. **** - (): I call myself the unofficial under 23 world champion in gravel because I was the first under 23 rider in the elite field to cross the line. So while it's not something UCI gives a Jersey for yet, uh, I'm hoping they're going to give an under 23 world champs Jersey next year, I'll still be eligible for that, but I had, I had the ride of my life too. **** - (): There was a point in the race where I'm riding next to. Wout van Aert and Matej Mohoric, and I stick both my elbows out to see if I could touch both of them at the same time and just because it was such a surreal experience that I was riding elbow to elbow with Matej Aert, I was like, this is crazy. I had a really good ride there that I was super proud of. **** - (): And I think the course designers did an awesome job of making a course that actually really was a feeling of a gravel race course. Like we have hard gravel climbs, hard farm roads. There was flats, there was climbs. There was two river crossings in the race. Like, it definitely wasn't just a one day classic disguised as a world championship. **** - (): It was a true gravel race, and I think it spoke a lot to the riders and gave a lot of validity to the sport beyond the fact that Some of the world's best riders were racing [00:27:26] - ():  Craig Dalton: it. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, they continue to improve the format. Obviously, they're melding what we think of gravel in the United States with what Europeans think of gravel and UCI has their own perspective on how long events should be And what they should look and feel like, but clearly like in 2023, it did capture the attention of both male and female elite level gravel racers in the United States. **** - (): And there was this dramatic shift in desire to actually go attend the worlds, which I, for one, I hope continues on. I do think it's important for us to have enthusiasm for the world championships. Cause I want nothing more than to have the rainbow stripes on an American at some point in the gravel [00:28:09] - ():  Andy Lydic: discipline. **** - (): Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, to speak to the validity of the race in the Europeans mind, like I think there was 50 plus pros in the race of including pro Conti and world tour riders. And then you add in continental riders and that's another 30 And then you have pro mountain bikers and pro cyclocross racers on top teams in the world. **** - (): Like the field was. Completely stacked. And it was really cool to see all these super high level riders there, as well as the U S putting in a really good result. Like I know Keegan was hoping to win it and I really believe he was capable of it, but you know, it's a race races don't always play out how you expect. **** - (): And I think it won't be too far in the future when we see an American wearing. I [00:28:57] - ():  Craig Dalton: love it. 2024. [00:29:02] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I started the race season two weeks ago at one of the, at the Low Gap Grasshopper race in Northern California. Had a pretty fun ride there. It was for being a, one of the smaller season opener races. **** - (): There was a pretty strong field. We had Chris Blevins and Pete Stetna. Uh, Brent Wurtz and John, no, not him, but a bunch of really high level riders, super cool. So started the season there, got 7th place after a silly little crash, 4k from the line, but then Looking forwards in two weeks, I'm going to fly over to Greece and start my racing season in Greece, actually racing on the road. **** - (): So I'll do a stage race in a one day in Rhodes, Greece. And then from there, I start with the UCI Gravel World Series race. So I'll be hitting, I think, six races in Europe over a seven week period. I'll do a UCI gravel race in Austria, a three day gravel stage race in Spain. A one day UCI gravel race in southern Spain and then up to Netherlands for a one day back to Spain for Traco, which is one of the biggest gravel races in the world now, but it's, I'd compare it to like, it is the, it's the unbound of Europe and then I'll finish the season off in Scotland at the UCI gravel race there. [00:30:22] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. And then will you be dipping your toe back in the United States throughout the season? Or are you mainly focused on the UCI gravel events internationally? [00:30:31] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah, after that race block, I'll come back to the U. S. in mid May and kind of refocus as the American season gets going. I think the American gravel season. **** - (): Gets going slowly. And then through the summer, it picks up quite a bit. So I won't be doing some of the big American stuff. I won't be doing Unbound, which I'm pretty happy to not be doing, but then I'll do Crusher and the Tusher. I'll do Steamboat. I'll do a couple of marathon mountain bike races. I'm hoping to go to. **** - (): Marathon mountain bike, national champs. I think that'd be a super fun experience. And then some local races here in Colorado and then the rest of the lifetime Grand Prix races after unbound. [00:31:11] - ():  Craig Dalton: Okay. Yeah. It's interesting to me, you know, I remember sort of historically speaking, they would often try to keep younger riders away from the super massive distance races, like an unbound 200. **** - (): And that's what was curious, you know, in the UCI vision of what gravel distances should be, they're not, they're not going 200 miles. They don't want it to be sort of an ultra endurance fest. They're, they're looking for it to be more active racing. How do you feel about, like, it sounds like. Not doing a 200 mile gravel race sits okay with you for this next season. **** - (): But do you think about it like that? Do you feel like 200 miles is too much for you as a younger professional? [00:31:53] - ():  Andy Lydic: I think it's hard as such a young guy to compete with the likes of Keegan or the likes of the other world tour pros coming from Europe to the U S to do onbound because These guys have lifetime miles, which gives them a level of durability that it's really hard to have as a young rider. **** - (): And so beyond the fact that it's just a long day in the saddle, I think it's hard for young riders to really perform there and you know, it's well doing as a career changing result. But that said. I really like the UCI format of the shorter races. I like racing for four hours. I like the four hours to be really hard. **** - (): I like it to be really tactical and it feels like a road race that's more technical because you've got the gravel and you've got the, you know, whether it's a tricky descent or a river crossing or something like that. It's still a hard gravel race, but you're not out there for seven or eight or 10 hours. **** - (): Yeah, like you would find in some of the longer American races. So it's nice. It's nice to get the speed from the European races and hopefully I can get the speed from the shorter races and then take it into the endurance that the longer American races later in the season will [00:33:02] - ():  Craig Dalton: require. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. **** - (): I mean, look, there's, my opinion is there's room for all these types of events on the calendar. But it is interesting. And after talking to the UCI about like their perspective on the format, I have to acknowledge that like the dynamic racing element of a four to five hour race is just higher than a, a 10 [00:33:23] - ():  Andy Lydic: hour race. **** - (): Yeah, totally. And it's not, not that the racing in the U S is like not tactical because I think it's completely tactical, but it's just a different way. Whereas, you know, if the race, if you know, the race is 130 K or it's only going to be a four and a half hour race on the gravel guys are going to take much bigger poles, have much bigger attacks and yeah, it's going to play out more like a race that you'd want to watch on TV. **** - (): Whereas, I didn't really think it'd be super interesting to follow unbound for all 200 miles of it, just because, you know, things happen a lot slower because it's a much longer race. Riders have to think a lot more about conserving. Riders have to think a lot more about whether it's their fuel strategy, their nutrition strategy. **** - (): I think, you know, that's still equally important in the shorter races. How good your pit crew is doesn't determine your result in a UCI race, because you don't have a, that's not a thing that doesn't exist. It's you go out there, you race full gas for four hours, and then when you're done The race is over and, you know, some guys are wearing hydro packs. **** - (): Some guys are not, but it's not so much a war of attrition as much as it is like a proper race. Yeah. [00:34:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, how are you supporting your 2024 campaign? Do you have a set of sponsors that are carrying over from 23? [00:34:42] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I'm working with quite a few of my sponsors from 2023 continuing into next year. **** - (): And I've added a couple other sponsors as well. I think this year has been definitely tricky to get sponsors and to work with sponsors because it's so such a difficult bike market right now. You know, I've heard all across the industry, like, Oh, 2023 was a really tough year and that really impacts marketing budgets. **** - (): And marketing budgets is where, you know, privateers and writers like me get the finances to do the season. So it's actually not a complete process for me right now, figuring out how I'm going to pay for the entire season and pay for my living and everything. That's an ongoing process. And I think looking outside of the industry is something I've been doing recently as to how can I get some money and how can I share my story and how can I provide value to brands inside or outside of the industry? **** - (): While it's this late. The other hard thing for me was, you know, my best result, the unofficial under 23 world champion wasn't until October when a lot of people have already signed their contracts for next year. So my best results did come late. Moving into next year, I anticipate I'm continuing to work with BMC. **** - (): I'm continuing to work with It Could Be Me. I'm now working with Morton as a nutrition sponsor, which is really exciting and that's honestly a grail sponsor to me because I've been using their products. Been buying them for two years now and it's really exciting to get to work with the brand now. And I work with Northwave for shoes and Getting helmets from them. **** - (): So it's really cool that the product support I'm getting is really strong and fairly well covered when it comes to product, but definitely still trying to tie up some ends when it comes to financing the whole season. Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:19] - ():  Craig Dalton: Got it. Well, I love that you're forging your own way and you know, you've got a unique racing calendar that should appeal to some sponsors and wish you best of luck and certainly hope you're wearing the stars and stripes Jersey for us in the world championships again, [00:36:35] - ():  Andy Lydic: in 2024. **** - (): Yeah, that's the goal. I'd love to go back and double love it if the UCI offers up a jersey for the under 23. And even if they don't, I'm going to go and see how good I can do in that elite race. So that's the goal. [00:36:49] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. Thanks for the time today, Andy. Great to get to know you. [00:36:53] - ():  Andy Lydic: Yeah. Thanks so much, Craig. **** - (): Have a good one.

 

 

Andy Chasteen, co-director of the Rule of Three gravel event in Bentonville, Arkansas, joins host Craig Dalton to discuss the vibrant gravel cycling community in Northwest Arkansas. They delve into the importance of connectivity and safe infrastructure for cyclists, the origins of the Rule of Three event, and the unique experience it offers with a combination of pavement, gravel, and singletrack. Andy also shares his perspective on event organization and the value of creating a memorable and enjoyable experience for participants. Don't miss this engaging conversation about the growth and excitement surrounding gravel cycling in Bentonville.

Rule of Three Website

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About the Guest(s):

Andy Chasteen is an avid cyclist and the co-founder of Rule of Three, a unique gravel cycling event held in Bentonville, Arkansas. He has a background in rock climbing and ultra marathoning, which led him to discover his passion for cycling. Andy is also a consultant in the outdoor industry and has worked with brands like Allied Cycle Works. He is dedicated to creating a vibrant cycling community in Northwest Arkansas and promoting the gravel riding experience.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andy Chasteen, co-founder of Rule of Three, about the vibrant gravel cycling community in Northwest Arkansas and the unique gravel event they organize. They discuss the growth of Bentonville as a cycling destination, the importance of connectivity and safe infrastructure, and the origins of Rule of Three. Andy shares his journey from rock climbing to cycling and his passion for creating events that offer a challenging yet enjoyable experience for participants. He also emphasizes the value of different types of gravel events and the need for inclusivity in the cycling community.

Key Takeaways:

• Bentonville, Arkansas, has become a thriving cycling destination with a strong focus on connectivity and safe infrastructure.
• Rule of Three is a gravel cycling event that combines pavement, gravel, and single track sections to create a challenging and engaging experience.
• The event aims to provide a unique and fun atmosphere for participants, with a focus on community building and inclusivity.
• Andy Chasteen believes that gravel cycling offers a more accessible and enjoyable experience for riders of all skill levels.
• Rule of Three is committed to delivering a high-quality event and prioritizes participant experience over profit.

Notable Quotes:

• "We're building gravel connectors that are not used by cars. They're just for cyclists to get from the center of Bentonville out into these rural areas." - Andy Chasteen
• "Gravel riding resonated with my culture and personality. It felt like home." - Andy Chasteen
• "Our goal is to put on the best event possible for the people that show up." - Andy Chasteen

Automated Transcription.  Please excuse the typos:

[TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Andy welcome to the show. [00:00:03] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I've been listening to you for a long time. [00:00:08] - ():  Craig Dalton: That's amazing [00:00:09] - ():  Andy Chasteen: to hear Andy. Well, sometimes it's just weird to be on a podcast that you've been listening to and you're talking to the person that you listen to all the time. So it's. It can be awkward, but it's great. **** - (): It's an honor to be here. Thank you. [00:00:20] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I feel like I've been observing your antics from afar for a while. So I feel like I know you a little bit, but it's the first time I think that we've actually got a chance to chat. [00:00:30] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm S I'm super stoked to talk to you. So sweet, [00:00:34] - ():  Craig Dalton: well, a lot of people will have heard of rule of three, and I definitely want to get into that event. **** - (): Super excited to talk to you about that and, um, gravel cycling in Northwest Arkansas as well. Just as a general topic, because I know as we were talking about offline, that community that you're part of cultivating and a member of is just. So vibrant that, uh, you know, I just love to hear stories from the ground and how other communities can mimic what you're doing and the passion that the community seems to have for gravel riding. [00:01:04] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, as we were, as we were talking a few minutes ago, there's a lot going on here and, uh, it's quite exciting. And as we like to stay around here, we're, uh, we're just on first base, which is kind of, which is kind of exciting to, to even say, yeah. [00:01:19] - ():  Craig Dalton: And for those of us who have been to Bentonville to. **** - (): To, to hear you describe it as first base is insane because you've got great infrastructure. You can get around town on bike paths, but that's just the tip tip tip of the iceberg. There's a couple of substantial mountain bike areas and obviously miles and miles and miles of great gravel as demonstrated in the big sugar gravel event every [00:01:41] - ():  Andy Chasteen: year. **** - (): That's right. And, uh, you know, we're working on, you know, like you said, connectivity, and I don't mean to jump straight into this, but like a lot of what we are working on in the Bentonville area is connectivity. How can we connect neighborhoods, uh, you know, business centers and just life in general to trail and gravel road and safe connectors to get out into these rural area, like. **** - (): That's a, that's a thing that's been on our mind for, you know, well, for, for a while, but what we've really focused on in the past year is, is really making, it's connecting, uh, Bentonville or the Northwest Arkansas area to the ride experience, which has been a fun, a fun time for [00:02:24] - ():  Craig Dalton: sure. Yeah, I bet. You know, that, that safe connector thread, I think is so important because a lot of areas are great for cycling, but you have to get there and many of us want to ride there. **** - (): And if riding there is dangerous, that's just going to prevent people from enjoying the sport in the way we want them to. [00:02:42] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah, uh, the lens with which we've been looking at, uh, let's, let's just stay on the gravel side for now, but like the lens with which we've been looking at the gravel side of the, you know, the experience in Northwest Arkansas is, has been heavily towards, okay. **** - (): This area is growing. This area is growing very, very fast. And there's, there are some things that we cannot control and we can't control growth. You know, we, we, we don't, you know, we want the Bentonville Northwest Arkansas area to grow and be prosperous. And, you know, but we also have to make sure that that experience for the rider is You know, safe, it's enjoyable. **** - (): Um, it's, uh, it's approachable for someone who might be brand new. So that's kind of the lens with which we've been looking at the gravel experience. And quite honestly, we're building gravel connectors that are not used by cars. They're just for cyclists to get from. Say, let's just say for right now, uh, the center of Bentonville out into these rural areas. **** - (): So as Bentonville grows and the footprint expands, those will be protected in perpetuity for their gravel experience, which is really cool. And I'm maybe there's other, you know, communities doing that. But if, if they are, I'm not aware of it. And it really is this amazing foresight, uh, to where 20 years from now, we hope that the gravel experience is protected and enhanced and, uh, and it's still what it currently is. **** - (): So. [00:04:11] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's probably worth, you know, I've, I've spoken about Bentonville a couple of times on the podcast before, but it's probably worth noting that the sort of. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the major employer in Bentonville is Walmart and then entities that are related to Walmart. And it's just, it's been there for many, many years. **** - (): Sure. The Walmart family has had a commitment to investing in cycling infrastructure. So that when they're thinking about their new campus from the ground up, they're always thinking about how can people ride bikes in and it seems from an outsider's perspective that that's infused across the entire town. **** - (): Just this idea that bikes are going to be part of this community and to your recent point, we're going to build in infrastructure from the onset of planning, not try to slap it on after we've built a subdivision or grown the community in [00:05:02] - ():  Andy Chasteen: some way. That's right. There has to be some foresight and you're right there. **** - (): That's the, that's the, that's the focus for sure. And it can't be done. Like you said, behind the ball, we have to be ahead of the ball on that. You know, for example, the walmart's building a new, uh, ginormous, uh, home office campus and on that campus will be single track and there's initiatives within the, within the home office, you know, To, to have a certain percentage of people commuting there, you know, to, to work on, you know, on a weekly basis. **** - (): And so there is a lot of foresight within, you know, cycling and riding a bike is not only healthy, but it makes, you know, it's just, it's better for a community as well. So, yeah, absolutely. [00:05:44] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. And as an off road cyclist, I remember going from my Airbnb to an event that the people, people for bikes conference people were having at the, that great museum you have there. **** - (): And I remember Bridges. Yeah, Crystal Bridges. Yeah. And I remember having the opportunity to ride single track just on the way there to get from point A to point B. And I was like, this is fantastic. [00:06:07] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. There's kids, you know, kids ride single track to school every day, which I mean, yeah, I'm a little jealous cause I wish I would have had that experience, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, we got a lot going on here. **** - (): There's it's. I like to use the word bonkers. There's a lot of bonkers things going on here. It's busy. It's bustling and it's great. If you're a bike rider, it's hard for me to think there's a better place to be. That's for sure. [00:06:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, I agree. It's definitely someplace everybody needs to visit at some point. **** - (): You know, Northwest Arkansas 10 years ago might not have been on people's radar as a cyclist as a place to go. And now I think unequivocally for anybody who's set foot in that town of Bentonville in that area, it's an emphatic yes, go visit. [00:06:51] - ():  Andy Chasteen: That's right. Yeah, for sure. For [00:06:52] - ():  Craig Dalton: sure. You were talking about sort of childhood and the ability to ride to school, etc. **** - (): Yeah. Let's, let's roll back a second and just kind of learn a little bit more about where you grew up, Andy. And how'd you find the bike originally? [00:07:05] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Well, man, that's a long story, but I'll try to, I'll try to keep it short. Uh, I grew up in Southern Missouri, kind of right across the border, actually from Northwest Arkansas. **** - (): It's a really small town. Went off to college. Um, I played, I actually played basketball in college and, uh, you know, in, into team sports, basically, you know, my entire childhood and into, you know, probably 21, 22 years old. And then after I graduated college, I, I got obsessed with rock climbing for some weird reason and, uh, and got really into rock climbing, ultra marathoning. **** - (): Um, and like I said, like a very long story made very short, maybe not very short, but short, um, I was running the, I was running ultra marathons and in order to train for ultra marathons, I'm like a big guy by like 200 and I knew that I couldn't run a lot of miles to train for these ultras. And so what I would do is I would go out for like, you know, maybe like a 10 mile trail run and then I would jump on a bicycle. **** - (): I wasn't a cyclist, but I would jump on a bicycle. To take that, you know, pressure off of my joints and like keep injury free. And so I, I would go out and jump on a bicycle for four hours and I just got hooked, completely hooked and really the rest is history, been on a bike ever since. Um, and you know. I still love to do all these. **** - (): I love outdoor endeavor, outdoor rec, anything outdoor rec, paddling, you know, climbing trail. I like all that, but my obsession is certainly with the bike. So, um, that's the, that's the short story and we [00:08:39] - ():  Craig Dalton: did you discover yourself as a, as a mountain biker in those early days or what, what was your niche of choice? [00:08:46] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Uh, at the time I was actually living in, in Oklahoma city and which, which is, you know, It's there's, there's not a lot of what I would consider like great bike riding there, but the community is amazing. It's a very tight knit, not a big community, very tight knit, but it's very road centric. Um, so I started off kind of on the road bike and, uh, you know, I raced, I did road racing and crate racing and all that. **** - (): And, uh, I, I was, I was certainly into mountain biking at the time, but that wasn't what I spent most of my days doing. So it kind of started on the road. [00:09:17] - ():  Craig Dalton: Gotcha. Since we're going to get into the rule of three event that you're putting on there in Bentonville, I think it's going to be interesting to just talk about your journey and experience as an event organizer. **** - (): And I know from your bio that a rock, a big rock climbing event happened sometime. In that period. So why don't you walk us through like that event? Cause I think it is for those of you who haven't heard of Horseshoe hell, go look it up. I think I S I want to say I saw, uh, some stuff on Red Bull TV about it, but I've read about it now outside magazine over the years. **** - (): So it's a really amazing event, but I'd love to just hear how it got started because I think it's part of your origin story as someone who stuck up their hand and said, I can put on an [00:10:00] - ():  Andy Chasteen: event. Yeah, for sure. So like, you know, rewind back when I was in this very obsessive rock climbing phase and, uh, you know, there's a, there's this beautiful, beautiful canyon out in, uh, in Arkansas called, uh, Horseshoe Canyon Ranch, and they have, you know, 600, uh, you know, sport routes. **** - (): Um, so single pitch technical, you know, sport route, rock climbing. And I would spend a lot of time there in kind of the early years of my climbing. And we just, me and some buddies, when we can get this crazy idea, it's, it's kind of an outdoor climbing gym. You got a route here, you can climb this route, you take, you know, 10 steps to your right and you got another one, you know what I mean? **** - (): It's like route on route on right on route. And they're all really good routes. And so I, we got this wild idea to put on an event that was like a 24 hour rock climbing competition, which seems. Idiotic. Yeah. Had anybody [00:10:54] - ():  Craig Dalton: done that in the past? No, no, no. Yeah, we have like on the mountain bike side, there's 24 hour mountain bike racing, but sounds like it was a totally foreign concept. [00:11:03] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Very foreign. Of course, very, very foreign. Um, and so, and all my buddies thought it was a great idea, but nobody really wanted to like I kind of take the reins. So I took the reins and, uh, and, uh, you know, I, it's a private, it's a private property. So I, you know, I went and asked the owner and he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. **** - (): You can do that. And just, and thus started this beautiful relationship. This is 2006. And, uh, this, this beautiful relationship with this, with this great, amazing place. And we built this. really cool experience where it started off as a 24 hour rock climbing competition, but now it's a five day festival, right? **** - (): And so, uh, outside climbing or I'm sorry, outside magazine calls it the burning man of rock climbing. So you got people in costumes and it's a five day love fest party, right? Like, It's I like to say, you know, you can come here and be anybody you want to be for five days as long as you're respectful to, you know, to your fellow, you know, people there. **** - (): So, um, and the rest is history. It still happens. We're still, we're still doing it. And, uh, even though I'm not like a huge climber is into it as I used to be, um, it's still, it's still a raging, we can, we can only allow 500 competitors, um, so that people can like. Accomplish their goals that they set out, you know, for that 24 hours, we can only let 500 people in, but it the amount of spectators that come and the people who just want to kind of party for the weekend is way beyond that. **** - (): So, yeah, it's really cool. And oddly enough, I'd never put on a bit before that. I had never even been to a rock climbing competition before I put that on. And sometimes I think that that is actually the golden ticket. Like, yeah. It's almost better to not know how things are done or they're supposed to be done when you're trying to do something that way you can be creative and kind of do, you know, something a little different. **** - (): So anyways, that was kind of the origins of my first event. And I don't consider myself. I still don't consider myself an event promoter because I have always just done them for fun. I've always had a real job. And, uh, but these have always been for fun and we've cultivated beautiful communities behind them. **** - (): And that's, that's what I'm proud of, um, in these events. [00:13:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Amazing. I'll make sure to link to Horseshoe Howell. Cause I just, I think it's a fascinating story and the pictures that come out every year. Yeah, [00:13:22] - ():  Andy Chasteen: it looks awesome. It's a real wild time. It's a real wild. [00:13:26] - ():  Craig Dalton: Is it a two person team for 24 hours or is it solo? **** - (): That's [00:13:30] - ():  Andy Chasteen: it's a two person team. Cause you have to have a belayer obviously. So the whole idea is like, but there are categories just like any other event. Like, you know, there's categories for the most amount of routes climbed by a team or an individual or the F the most amount of, uh, Uh, routes climb that are certain, you know, difficulty level or whatever the case may be. **** - (): So you, there's all these just like, um, like kind of like the Tour de France. There's a race, there's lots of races within the race. There's lots of categories within this bit, this one event that you can actually go after, which is kind of cool. [00:14:02] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So much fun. So much fun. When did you find yourself actually moving to Bentonville and what, what attracted you to, to that area? **** - (): Uh, [00:14:12] - ():  Andy Chasteen: I'm trying to think of how many years ago that was that I, that I moved to Bentonville. I, I originally, I originally, uh, became involved in the Bentonville area through, um, I'm self employed. I'm a consultant in basically really what I I've always considered like the biker outdoor industry. And so I really started coming to Bentonville years ago, um, as a consultant for different brands in the industry. **** - (): So I, you know, I had go to Bentonville and, uh, in my sprinter van and, uh, and spend, you know, you know, Half of a month there at a time. I spent half my time there, uh, just kind of living out of the van and working for clients and doing work that way. And, uh, eventually I moved full time. Uh, we're full time in Bentonville now, but my wife and I, but, um, it started off as kind of like I was kind of, I hate to use the word squatting in Bentonville, but I was kind of squatting in my Sprinter van in Bentonville for work. **** - (): Yeah. Which is wild. Obviously [00:15:06] - ():  Craig Dalton: you started to discover some of the riding throughout the area. Yeah. Okay. Was there a certain point in time when you sort of got under, got your first gravel bike underneath you? [00:15:17] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Uh, I had been, I had been dabbling in gravel bike, you know, before I started going to Bentonville. **** - (): I was super into the gravel scene early on, um, for a lot of different reasons. Um, I, I grew up in the outdoors. Um, you know, hunting, fishing, things like that. And it just felt like gravel was more all in line with like my personality and where I came from. I, I grew up in a rural area. So even today, when I ride my gravel bike in rural areas, it feels like I'm home. **** - (): And so, um, I was, I was into the gravel scene pretty early, I guess, if you will, but not because I thought it was the next big thing is just because it kind of resonated with my culture. Yeah. Personality or my soul a little bit more. Yeah. [00:15:58] - ():  Craig Dalton: Did that, did that lead you to testing the water or some of those early [00:16:02] - ():  Andy Chasteen: events? **** - (): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a lot of, you know, I wrote an article many years ago. I'm trying to remember when, when that was, but I wrote this crazy article. I have to look it up on the date, but the, and it was just for like my personal website. It wasn't to like, you know, I wasn't a journalist or anything like that, but I wrote this article and this is when, you know, mid South was, was called, you know, the land run 100. **** - (): And the article was, was titled. Oh yeah. Um, and it just gave all the, I gave all these reasons because it was a bill. It was, it was for everyone. It was for everyone who wanted to ride a bike, no matter who you were and the, the community, the community building and like. So I, I just, it resonated with me early, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. [00:16:48] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And imagine, you know, at that time, obviously being familiar with Mid South and all the events that were going on at that time, over the subsequent years, we started to see, I mean, for lack of a better word, a professionalization of some subset of races. Sure. Lots of community based races. I mean, still to this day, I think event organizers have to kind of navigate their lane and understand like what type of they're putting on. **** - (): But as we come to the rule of three, I'm just curious of your mindset of. Was there something missing? Was it more, Hey, Bentonville is awesome. And I know my way around and I want to show people a great day out there. Talk us through the mindset of the origin of that event. [00:17:33] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Um, I think, I think there's probably a combination of, of, of maybe all of those, um, The origin came, I have to say, you know, allied cycle works has been one of my clients for quite a few years. **** - (): And, uh, a guy named Sam Pickman, he's the director of product over there. He designs all, you know, all the bikes and everything. I'm a podcast guest over here. Oh, no way. Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. Sam is a super good buddy of mine. I adore him. And, uh, there's actually a connection with that too, because Sam's wife, Lauren is my co director for rule of three. **** - (): So anyways, I want to back up. Uh, we were, you know, when the Abel came out, Allied's first, first gravel bike, um, we, we were on, Sam and I were riding around, um, on the, on prototypes in Bentonville one time, and we were hopping on single track and popping in and out of single track trail and then back onto gravel and things like that, and we got this one day, boom, all this crazy idea, why don't we put on an event that is equal amounts pavement, uh, Gravel and single track, and we kind of like threw it around a little bit. **** - (): We thought it was a really cool idea. And that honestly is the origin of rule of three. And really, we sat on that idea for probably 2 or 3 years or I did the Sam's busy. He doesn't want that. He didn't want it. That's not Sam's lane, right? Sam is a brain. He's a brain guy. Um, so that was where the origin of the idea came from is riding our gravel bikes on the single track in Bentonville. **** - (): And so we sat on this idea for quite some time. Right. And this would have been early 2021. I remember specific, the specific time when I decided it was go time for rule of three, um, uh, Mid South, uh, uh, uh, Mid South again, I love you, Bobby, Mid South had just canceled, uh, their event because of COVID. And the reasoning behind is we can't bring people from all over the country here. **** - (): Um. Because, because of COVID and I thought to myself, well, you know what I could do? I could put on an event in Bentonville where it's just locals, no one has to travel and we let, you know, we have maybe 150 people show up and that is our, like dipping our toes into the event scene, right? This is my time. **** - (): This is my time. And so I like started this free Instagram account and just kind of started marketing the idea behind rule of three. Um, next thing, you know, we sold out 700 spots in the first year. I didn't, wasn't expecting that, but, um. That's the origins of Rule of Three. And quite honestly, I'd never put an event on. **** - (): I've been to a lot of them, obviously, um, and I didn't do it out of, out of a desire to do something. I didn't think it was necessarily something that was lacking in the scene. I just was like, you know what? I want to put on an event and I want to do it my way. You know what I mean? Um, and we'll do it different than everyone else. **** - (): Um, because I personally speaking, I find value in all of these different ways that gravel events are put on. I think they're all valuable. I think they're all great. Right. Whether you're putting on this beautiful, UCI feel, you know, SBT gravel, that's a polished and beautiful, or you've got unbound. That's this really long ginormous event, right? **** - (): That's like the worldwide, or you've got rule of three, which we put it on in a freaking field. We're dirty. We're grimy. We're different, right? I find value in all of those. And I think that, I think that, you know, uh, There's, there's enough of an audience now to where, uh, to where all of these different ways of putting on an event find value with, they resonate with, you know, a certain audience. **** - (): And I, so that's, that was really the reason behind it. Yeah. A [00:21:13] - ():  Craig Dalton: hundred percent. I remember when I first read about rule of three, I was like, this is my jam because I often say like my favorite events. You're going to hate your bike at least once during the event. Event organizer did it right. And when you guys kind of came out with rule of three, I was like, this is awesome. **** - (): Like it's really putting a fine point on like. You better pick your poison and I very much enjoyed hearing stories about it and hearing some of the racers talk about it because they were going through these thought processes in their head. Like I remember Ian Boswell talking about it and he's like, you know, I know I'm not going to rip single track. **** - (): So if I'm going to be competitive in this race, I need to do something on the road section and on the gravel section that's going to meaningfully displace some of the more skilled mountaineers [00:22:02] - ():  Andy Chasteen: in the bunch. And he did, he did that year, you know, he put the hammer down and dropped almost everyone on a, on a really long kind of gravel pavement sector, you know. **** - (): Um, which, you know, the routes really hard, you know, you know, it's historically speaking, we've, it's been a hundred mile route with about 10, 000 feet of climbing and about 20 miles of singer track, you know, it's, and he don't do all that single track at once. Like you're kind of in and out of stuff all day. **** - (): Right. And that's the whole idea. You gotta be on, there is no zoning out at rule of three, you zone out, that's when you're in trouble. You know, and so the whole idea was to do something that was really, really difficult. Um, but keeps you on and honest all day long. Right. Yeah. And so, um, that was kind of the idea behind it. **** - (): We throw a huge finish line party. Um, and that's one other thing that we do differently. We're in a field, right? We're in this big wide open field and you're, the finish line is basically a two track road. Last year we built a cyclocross curl course for you for the finish line. Um, and so, and what we do, what I do on purpose or what Lauren and I do, I, I should give Lauren the, Lauren does most of the work. **** - (): She's the brains behind the operation. What we do is we, we build the finish line. And this is a, this is a very important part for, for the, the brand of Rula3. Our finish line, you cross that finish line in the finish line shoot, and you are in the party. We don't shoo you out of the shoot. You, you, as you come in to cross the finish line, you're in the party. **** - (): We don't move you, you're there. You can stay there as long as you want to. We put a bag over your shoulder, and in that bag is a burrito, a beer, a coke, and a muffin. So that, so you don't have to go somewhere and pull your wallet out to find food. It's right there. We expect you to stay and have a good time with all your friends and tell stories and whatever, right? **** - (): But in order to do that, there, it also has to be safe, right? So what we, what we did is we put the last corner, um, on the course, about 10 feet from the finish line. So no one, there are no sprints across the finish. The sprint is before you get to the finish. And so that keeps it like nobody's getting ran over by a bike going too fast. **** - (): So there's, there's thought behind that because I want people to feel like when they cross that finish line, they can stay right there. And so all these little things that like doing things differently, I think sets us apart and all sets all these other events, but not just us, but everyone who does all these different things with their events that sets them apart. **** - (): I think that's cool. [00:24:35] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's awesome. Since I want the listener to definitely walk away with a real. Understanding of the rule of three course, you know, you talked about these three elements of single track kind of gravel roads and road, you know, as you, as you talk through people who are coming to the event about the type of equipment they would use, I mean, is the single track entirely, or is it. **** - (): You know, it's rideable on, you know, a four C tire. I'm just curious about that. [00:25:03] - ():  Andy Chasteen: We keep it, I like to keep it as, as not gnarly as possible. That way, that way, because I don't, I don't want to limit our audience to people who are really good mountain bikers. I don't think that's fair. And so we try to keep most of the single track, uh, in, in like a, like the green blue. **** - (): Yeah, you know, realm, right? And there'll be some technical sections, but they're not long. If you need to hop off your bike for a second, that's okay. It's not that big a deal, right? We do suggest, um, nothing smaller than a 45 on tire width. Yeah. Um, and, and 50 is your go to quite honestly, just because really. **** - (): The standards kind of moving that direction anyways, but, um, you're going to have a much more pleasant day on a, on a 50 than you would say, uh, even a 45, but, um, but the course is hard, you know, you know, in, in Bentonville, we don't have these, we don't have these big long climbs like you do out, out where you're at. **** - (): So we call it death by a thousand cuts, you know, 10, 000 feet of climbing and a hundred miles when you don't have a climb longer than, you know, half a mile at the most. You know, uh, that's, that's a lot of steep, punchy climbing, you know, it's really, it wears you down over the day and like death by a thousand cuts is, is, is the name of the game. [00:26:20] - ():  Craig Dalton: It's so interesting coming from the Bay area where, you know, we have to do an 800 foot climb or 1200 foot climb. Just we go up and then we go down. There's not a lot of flat rule stuff. I personally, I have a really hard time transitioning to the Bentonville type hills because as you said, they just. You might push over the first one and the second one, and then they start to add up, add up, add up. **** - (): And it hits me a lot differently as a cyclist than the long climbs that I'm used to out [00:26:48] - ():  Andy Chasteen: here. Yeah. It's interesting. Uh, it's an interesting, uh, difference. Like I don't, I don't adjust well to the climbs that you do because of where I live too, you know, so I'm used to, I'm used to 20 seconds at, you know, whatever. **** - (): 500 Watts or like something above threshold or something. Right. So I guess it's just kind of, you're used to where you're at. Right. So, um, but yeah, it's a, it's a very unique course and we've, we've certainly started out at a, a lot of kind of B road sections, um, which can be in general, even more technical than some of the single track too. **** - (): Yeah. So we, we changed the course every year, every single year. It's different. I [00:27:27] - ():  Craig Dalton: think that, that underscores how much terrain you have access to, to, which is exciting. [00:27:32] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. I mean, we change it up. Uh, Drastically every year. It feels completely different every year, which is cool. And you're like, you said the, the, you know, our, uh, our canvas is big. **** - (): So it's, it's not hard to do that, which is a huge blessing for us. For sure. [00:27:49] - ():  Craig Dalton: The other incredibly unique thing about this event is the entry fee. Can you talk about that? Yeah. [00:27:56] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Um. This is just kind of another part of the, of our ethos is our brand. Like we, and it's not just the entropy and it also, it goes back to what I said, uh, you know, a few minutes ago, I don't do this for my job. **** - (): This is not my day job. I'm doing this. I do this cause I want to, cause it's fun. Lauren and I both do it because it's important to us to put on our, our goal is, uh, not to make money on this. I mean, I know that sounds counterintuitive, but our goal is to put on the best event. Possible for the people that come up that show. **** - (): And so, um, our entry fee's, 85 bucks, um, and I believe we began, I think our first year it was 65 and now it's 85. And we'll never go over the amount of miles that the event is, is what, is basically That's the goal. Yeah. I think what, what I've committed to, and I, and I like to commit that in public 'cause it keeps me accountable. **** - (): One other, one other thing that we do is we do not. Take or accept cash from sponsors. We want a sponsor to come to our event and take that cash that they would have given us and use it to add value to the participants, right? The people that are there. Um, I, I'm a fallible human. And so if you were to give me just, I'm just saying personally, me, if you're a sponsor, you're going to give me, let's say whatever, 10, 000 bucks to be a sponsor of rule of three, guess what I'm do probably going to pocket 5, 000 of that and then put 5, 000, the rest other 5, 000 into making the event better for the people. **** - (): So. What I do to hold myself accountable is I just don't take cash at all. I just say, if you want to sponsor the event, then you're going to have to, you're going to have to come and add some sort of value to the event. And, and it's, and we don't make rules in this, which, which is cool. Like someone came last year and cooked. **** - (): Bacon the out at an aid station the whole day. Um, so there's all these crazy ideas that we encourage the sponsors to come and do, uh, aid stations, uh, parties at the finish line. Somebody's making margaritas in one of their tents or whatever. Specialized comes and they give they do post finish. They do finish line photos when you're all 30 and gross. **** - (): And yeah, and those are free. You get those for free. We don't charge. There's no charge for those. Um, and we have. Yeah. What I like to call the best swag bag in the, in the biz, like, um, we give every competitor to not one water bottle too, because everybody likes a matching water bottle. Right? So that's right. **** - (): We do. Yeah, we do water bottles. We, you know, you get a tea, you get a bandana, you get a, uh, you get an ass saver, you get, you know, you get a stainless steel pint last year. Uh, mirror gave everybody's, uh, insulated, uh, Bottles that were logoed and like, so we, I like, I like to have two or $300 worth of cool stuff that people will actually use Yeah. **** - (): In the bag that they, that they get at pack and pickup. So for us it's really about creating value and creating a real good time of the at, you know, at, at the event. And, uh, and that's what we're committed to doing. So that's, I guess, a few of the ways that we like to kind of do things different. Right. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky I'm blessed that, um, I don't. **** - (): I don't put this event on for my living if I'm just being honest. [00:31:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. It changes the dynamic entirely, I think, because I mean, it's such a, it's such a difficult business to be in the event business. It [00:31:23] - ():  Andy Chasteen: is. It is. That's right. I can make every decision I make is. Is not attached to the bottom line. And I, I, I know that other events aren't like that and I, I applaud them. **** - (): I think every other event out there, I've been to almost, not all of them, but a lot of them. And almost all of them. And I will go to them this year too. 'cause I think they're amazing, but we just wanna do things different at rule three. Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:47] - ():  Craig Dalton: And as you said, there's room quite simple. There's room for it all. **** - (): A [00:31:51] - ():  Andy Chasteen: thousand percent room for it [00:31:52] - ():  Craig Dalton: all. Yeah. I think you mentioned this, but I wanted to make sure the listener, uh, has this as a takeaway that the it's a hundred mile event, but it's, I think you have a, uh, additional distance this year. Is that right? [00:32:04] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah, we actually, we, we also offer a 50 mile event. Um, so that's something that like we like to, we like to say, if you, if you don't think that you can finish the, well, you know, this isn't your typical gravel race, it takes or gravel event. **** - (): I'll hate calling it a race for some reason that doesn't sit well for me. Um, if. You know, this is not 100 mile gravel event. This will take you a lot longer than you would. It would normally take you to do a gravel event because of that 20 miles a single track. Yeah, you don't think that you can finish something like that and say 10 to 12 hours. **** - (): We always we like, just we respectfully say you should dip your toes in the 50 miler. And then once you've got that under your belt, hit that next one, right? And so we've got the 50, we've got the 100, and this year we're actually adding the 200. Um, which will be such, it's going to be a sick route. And we're only opening it to a hundred people. **** - (): Because it's, you know, you know, my, my thoughts are ultra distance. If it's not already here, it's the future. People, you know, I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of myself. I've done how many hundred mile events. And. Where I, while I still love them, sometimes I think to myself, well, what's next? Right. I think people are thinking in, I think a lot of people are thinking, what's next for me? **** - (): I've done 10 hundred mile gravel events. What's my next step? Well, a 200 mile is probably your next step. And I know that unbound is a 200 miler, but. This isn't unbound. This is, you know, this is 200 miles with 30 plus miles of single track at, you know, and you're circumnavigating this ginormous lake out east of Bentonville. **** - (): There's a lot of climbing and it's way out in the middle of nowhere. It's an adventure. Yeah. So we're adding that on this year. Yeah. [00:33:45] - ():  Craig Dalton: Given, given the, obviously the duration it takes to ride the single track about 100 and the added single track in the 200, how long of an event are you thinking that's going to be for, I mean, I don't know how to put it in perspective for people from the first to last, but what's the window of time you're thinking? [00:34:03] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Well, we're going to, we'll start the event the day before. So we'll start, we'll start the 200 miler on Friday afternoon, and it'll start from where packet pickup is basically. Um, in town and we're, we're, we're making a 30 hour cutoff and you'll have to wear a spot tracker on your, just like you would any other ultra distance event. **** - (): Right? So yeah, it really is. It's, it's unsupported. It's fully self supported. We ain't coming to pick you up. So it's, it's a different adventure, but I, I do, I personally believe if it's not already here, it is the future of, of, uh, you know, the gravel experience, at least part of the future. Yeah. [00:34:40] - ():  Craig Dalton: I mean, I think to your point, just about the different flavors of events that exist, even in that like a narrow hundred mile mindset. **** - (): Now you're seeing it go both directions, which is pretty natural. I mean, I think again, like sometimes. Riding 100 is not enough should be for most people. Sometimes [00:34:58] - ():  Andy Chasteen: it's not. Yeah. And we, we, I had a question. I had someone asked me the other day. Are you ever considered making doing like a 20 miler because your events not that approachable for maybe a newer person. **** - (): And I was just honest. And I said, no, we're not going to. But what we do, what we do offer is we offer training rides. Um, yeah. In Bentonville, for no charge, they're free. We just did what we call the Rule of 399 last weekend, which we offered a 22 miler route. For people who wanted to see what it's like, you get to practice on the single track. **** - (): You get to see that, wow, this is a lot harder than a 22 mile gravel ride, right? It takes a lot longer. It's harder to do. It takes a little bit more technical skill. So we, we are, we're trying to train up newer people to at least have the opportunity to maybe hit that 50 miler one day. I don't think that we'll ever have a, a distance that's shorter than that, but we do that outside of our rule of three events, like our rule of three and nine, we do training events and things like that to give people that approach approachable mindset of maybe I can do the 50, you know what I mean? [00:36:02] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Super interesting. And that goes back to where we were talking about, which is that great community of cyclists and cycling events that's growing up and around Bentonville. It sounds like there's plenty of opportunity and exposure. For people to all these great events that are going on and as they sort of start to put a toe in the water, you're not the only person who's told me there's, you know, great group ride events quite regularly out in Bentonville for people to get a understanding what gravel cycling [00:36:30] - ():  Andy Chasteen: is all about. **** - (): There are, there's a lot of great events that happen in Bentonville. It, it seems like they're, they're nonstop actually. But, um, and they're amazing. I love to go to all of them. Um, you know, Big Sugar's a big deal, you know? Um, and so, you know, and there's, there's many more that's not, they're not the only one, but there's the, the opportunity, opportunities are endless. **** - (): You know, in our neck of the woods, [00:36:54] - ():  Craig Dalton: if you will, when does rule of three happen each year? [00:36:59] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Uh, we have we're on the same weekend every year. So, uh, I like to You know, it happens on may 18th, but I like to say that I think that's may 18th saturday might be the I think it's 18th. Um, but I like to say that rule of three is like May 16th through the 19th because we got to shake out rides. **** - (): We've got, you know, uh, we got, uh, breakfast on Sunday morning. Uh, you know, uh, after the event, we've got all kinds of things going on all weekend. So I hate to like, pin it down. Like, I'm like, come early, stay late, bring your mountain bike to, you know, let's party, you know? So, uh, but yeah, it's on the 18th this year. **** - (): Yeah. And we like, let's, I mean, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout out to like, I think Gravel Locos is that weekend. I think, uh, I think Pete's Pizza Pater is that weekend. And, you know, I've talked to, I've talked to all those guys and I'm like, they're, you know, everybody's kind of like, are you guys, are we, are we okay with all this? **** - (): And I'm like. We're all in different parts of the country. The audience is humongous. Who cares? You're going to fill up, you're going to fill up, we're going to fill up. Let's all be okay with this. There's no problem with us overlapping dates. I've had zero problems with that. Yeah, [00:38:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: I'm sure. How much writer capacity do you have for this year? [00:38:20] - ():  Andy Chasteen: We, we, uh, we limited at 1600 people, and there's a reason behind that. I think we could probably sell 3, 000 spots, but I don't want to. I want someone who crosses that finish line to look over our after party, right? And feel like they know everyone there. They don't have to know everyone there, but I want them to feel like they do. **** - (): And so, um, I'm not interested in, uh, you know, having it. Be bigger than that. So that's kind of, that's what we've been at for, this will be our third year that we've been at, at 15, 1600 people. And I like that number. It's, it's nice for us. Um, it helps, it helps our logistics and it just helps people have a better experience too. **** - (): And so that's probably what we'll stick at. [00:39:04] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's funny. I was having a totally unrelated conversation in my day job, just about a business I used to run and this opportunity we had to basically double the business. But I recognize that doubling the business was going to ruin my life. It was going to be miserable. **** - (): You know, we'd have to run two shifts in a factory. No one would be happy. I couldn't imagine it being the same thing. And so it's great for you. It's great to hear it from your words as well. Just like, this is a great size for us where you're confident that we can deliver an exceptional experience to 1600 people and why deliver a subpar experience to 3000 people. [00:39:45] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Yeah. And part of that is because this isn't my real job, you know, um, you know, you let three, 4, 000 people in that becomes your real job and I don't want it to be, I like my real job. [00:39:59] - ():  Craig Dalton: Um, when does anyone's registration open? [00:40:03] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Registration opens, uh, February 5th. So what is that like a few days from now? Yeah. **** - (): Um, and that's okay. If that's okay. If you're like, if, if this is coming out after that, it's not a big deal. I, we have always sold out in like a minute or two anyway. So it's, it's, I just love getting on here. And if, if, if I'm being completely honest. The legacy that I would love to leave behind with Rule of Three is not the event. **** - (): The, the legacy I would like to leave behind is that everyone goes out and rides these types of, does these types of rides where they live, no matter where they live. Yeah. I, I call 'em rule of three rides. You know what I mean? That's a legacy I wanna leave. Like I think that this is the funnest form of riding a bike that I've ever experienced, even just bar none. **** - (): And, uh, and I would, I would be happy over the moon if everyone, uh, out there rode, did these kind of rides where they lived. So, yeah, that's a legacy we really wanna leave behind. So, [00:41:04] - ():  Craig Dalton: I, I love it, Andy. I'm just going to shut up. If you had a microphone, I would have just allowed you to drop it and we would have cut the cut the show right there. **** - (): But I do want to just conclude by saying thank you for the energy you're putting into the sport, your energy into the community there. We'll definitely put, you know, links to rule of three because whether it's this year or next year, love for more people to go and get exposed to that great Bentonville riding and the experience you just described to us. [00:41:33] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Thank you. It was, it's, I've, I'm serious. I've listened to your podcast for a long time. How long, how long have you been doing this now? God, I think it's [00:41:39] - ():  Craig Dalton: five years. [00:41:41] - ():  Andy Chasteen: I was going to say, I didn't want to speak out and say, like, I've been listening to you for three years and you've only been around for two, but cause I, I did, I, you know, you lose track of time. **** - (): Yeah. I'm, I'm almost positive. I've been listening to you since the beginning. So, uh, very well done. I love listening to your stuff. It's, I like the variety, like you're always speaking to interesting people about all these different interests topics. So keep it up. It's awesome. Thank you. I appreciate [00:42:05] - ():  Craig Dalton: that Andy. **** - (): Right on. Thanks for spending some time with us, man. [00:42:09] - ():  Andy Chasteen: Thanks man. Thank you.

 

 

 

This week on the podcast we welcome Thomas English from Trek Travel to discuss the Provence to Girona gravel tour. Thomas shares his personal experience growing up in the Camargue National Park and how he discovered his love for cycling. He discusses the inspiration behind the Provence to Girona tour and the unique landscapes and cultural experiences that participants can expect. Thomas provides a detailed overview of the nine-day trip, highlighting the diverse terrain, cultural differences, and the sense of adventure that comes with gravel cycling. He emphasizes the importance of local expertise and the immersive experience that Trek Travel provides for its guests.

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About the Guest(s):

Thomas English is a guide for Trek Travel, a company that specializes in guided cycling trips. Based in Lyon, France, Thomas grew up in the Camargue National Park and developed a love for cycling at a young age. He has a background in field medical engineering but decided to pursue his passion for cycling and guiding. Thomas has been working for Trek Travel since 2019 and has guided numerous trips, including the Provence to Girona gravel tour.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Thomas English from Trek Travel about the Provence to Girona gravel tour. Thomas shares his personal experience growing up in the Camargue National Park and how he discovered his love for cycling. He discusses the inspiration behind the Provence to Girona tour and the unique landscapes and cultural experiences that participants can expect. Thomas provides a detailed overview of the nine-day trip, highlighting the diverse terrain, cultural differences, and the sense of adventure that comes with gravel cycling. He emphasizes the importance of local expertise and the immersive experience that Trek Travel provides for its guests.

Key Takeaways:

• The Provence to Girona gravel tour is a nine-day point-to-point cycling adventure that takes participants from the south of France to Catalonia, Spain.
• The trip offers a diverse range of terrain, including salt flats, vineyards, pine forests, and limestone rock formations.
• Participants will experience the cultural differences between the French and Catalan regions, including language, cuisine, and architecture.
• The tour provides an immersive and authentic experience, with opportunities to interact with locals, visit historic sites, and enjoy the natural beauty of the landscapes.
• Trek Travel focuses on building relationships with local partners and creating a supportive and enjoyable experience for guests.

Notable Quotes:

• "Gravel in many ways has an adventurous spirit. It takes you off the road and allows you to explore quieter and more remote areas." - Thomas English
• "Cycling is a universal language, but the culture and use of bikes can vary between regions. Gravel cycling allows you to experience the local culture and landscapes in a unique way." - Thomas English

Automated Transcription:

[TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport **** - (): I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. **** - (): Yeah. This week on the podcast, we welcome Thomas English from Trek, travel to the show. To talk to us about a new gravel tour they're doing from Two Jarana. The trip looks absolutely amazing. So super excited. To dig in with it and learn more about it and how it came to be. Truck travel since our last conversation with them on the podcast. Has really gone deep on gravel travel, building out several new trips this year, including one in the black Hills of South Dakota. An ACIAR ago to the Dolomites trip in Italy, as well as this To Jerome and a trip that we're going to be digging into today. **** - (): I had a great experience. In 2022 on my truck travel trip to Jarana and was doing everything I could to join this trip in April. I don't think this particular one's going to happen. Because of some other commitments, **** - (): . But I'm pleased to have this conversation with Thomas. So you can learn more about it. **** - (): before we jump in, I do need to thank this week sponsor. **** - (): A G one. The last few weeks, I've been talking a little bit more about my sleep routine, but today I want to talk about age one and my morning routine. Taking care of your health, isn't easy, but it should at least be simple. That's why for the last 10 years I've been drinking AIG one every day. No exceptions. **** - (): It's just one scoop mixed with water. My personal preference is through a few ice cubes in there. Once a day, every day and it makes me feel energized and ready to take on the day. That's because each serving of AIG. Delivers a daily dose of vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics and more. It's a powerful, healthy habit. **** - (): That's also powerfully simple. For me, that simplicity is really what came into play. When I first started using ag. I really wanted to make sure that my nutritional bases were covered by high-quality nutrition. In a way that was simple to integrate in my daily habits. I couldn't bear the idea of taking a dozen pills and supplements to cover the same. Basic areas that AIG one covers in one scoop of powder. If there's one product that had to recommend elevate your health it's ag one. That's why I've partnered with them. For so long as part of this podcast. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, start with Tri AIG one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D plus K2 and five free AIG. Travel packs with your first purchase. **** - (): Exclusively at drink. aig.com/the gravel ride. That's drink. dot com slash the gravel ride. Check it out today. Would that behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Thomas. **** - (): Thomas, welcome to the show. [00:03:17] - ():  Thomas English: Hi, Greg. Thank you for hosting me. [00:03:19] - ():  Craig Dalton: We're dealing with the challenges of international video conversations today with you in France and me in California. [00:03:28] - ():  Thomas English: Absolutely. Long distances. [00:03:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: Um, I'm excited to get into this conversation with you. Uh, I've been a big fan of Trek's commitment and enthusiasm around gravel travel. **** - (): And when my buddy Rich hit me up and told me about this Provence to Girona trip, I was like, I got to talk to someone about this. This sounds awesome. [00:03:52] - ():  Thomas English: It's epic. So the, the idea of the trip came in about two years ago now. Uh, I was involved in the design because my roommate is actually a trip design coordinator, if you want the truth. **** - (): So the two of us got this whole thing running and it's going to be an epic journey. [00:04:11] - ():  Craig Dalton: I love it. I can't wait to talk more about it, but to set the stage, I just want to learn a little bit more about you. We established that you're currently living in France. But where did you grow up and how did you initially find the bike? [00:04:24] - ():  Thomas English: So long story short, uh, I'm actually based in Lyon, France right now. So closer to the French Alps, about two and a half hours away from the sea. I actually grew up in the Camargue National Park, which is where the The Rome River creates a delta. It's famous for mosquitos, flamingos, and, uh, bulls, if you want the whole truth. **** - (): And it's very flat, so cycling wise, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. But the scenery is worth it. And if you're beginning with gravel, it's definitely a good spot to start. [00:04:58] - ():  Craig Dalton: And, you know, obviously gravel, we can argue about how long gravel has been around, but did you initially start as a road rider [00:05:05] - ():  Thomas English: or a mountain biker? **** - (): That's a very tricky question, because I think when, when you start cycling for me, it was, it was, you know, the first key to freedom my parents gave me. I was fortunate enough as a kid to grow up on a boat. So I think I grew this lack of, uh, you know, freedom for a little while being being like. On a boat with with parents. **** - (): It sounds very spoiled, but we were adventuring in a different way. It's more swimming and and canoeing out to places. And so as soon as we got back to lands, the bike was this this real weapon of freedom and this tool to go adventure and come back in late and get told by my mom. But I think, yeah, it was one bike does it all and I think I, I mainly did mountain biking as a teenager because it was a thing, you know, it was the era of downhill and free rides as they used to call it. **** - (): It's taken a whole new shape nowadays and gravel came naturally because we, we can do it in many ways. And especially as a company, I think it's, it's a trend and it's very much growing at the moment and it's the perfect. You know, where to explore a new region and mainly you can just get off the roads and go to, you know, access quieter places and places you, you'd wish to go on foot, but you can actually do it with the bike and it hasn't got to be too much of a distance on the road. **** - (): Yeah, 100%. [00:06:23] - ():  Craig Dalton: It sounds like you grew up with quite an adventurous spirit. How did you find your way into guiding for Trek? [00:06:29] - ():  Thomas English: I started working for Trek for in, in 2019. So this is my sixth season, which I travel and. It's an, it's an amazing place to, to work, uh, good people, you know, the, the support and logistics from A to Z, uh, whatever you get on the guest experience, when you call up the office or the guest services, uh, we feel on, on in the field and feeling that supports from, from, you know, a guide in the field, you don't really find that anywhere else. **** - (): So that's one, one thing to mention. Uh, but I, I, I kind of fell into it because I have a friend that was a guide a year before me. That was the one of the first reasons. Um, but mainly because I was working as a field medical engineer, uh, in the previous life. And there is a moment where you want to follow your dream. **** - (): And I was out there adventuring in the mountains every weekend. So I realized I could do it for a living and take people with me, which is what I care for. [00:07:31] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. I feel like. It might be interesting to hear, what is the life of a guide like? Do you, do you ride all year round and guide all over the place? **** - (): Or are you located in France and you only ride trips in [00:07:46] - ():  Thomas English: France? So that's a fascinating question that we often get from people on the trips, from people outside the trips, from friends and family, or from the first newcomer that you, you, you meet in a, in a party in an evening, for instance. I, I think the life of a guide is is very much full on. **** - (): It's a season is very long in cycling and it's getting longer. Uh, it's some people would rather do it as a very seasonal thing, like riding through the nice period in the, when it's warm and you can ride in shorts and then there'll be a ski instructor in the winter. So. Each guide kind of have their, their own algorithm to, to go about it. **** - (): Uh, for me, it's, it's a full time commitment and then I get a bit of time off, uh, in the winter months to go travel and discover new places. And it kind of sticks to my, my character and my way of doing things. I like to go work hard, play hard in many ways, even though that sounds, uh, Very, very general, it's full season and then a bit of time off to, to go and relax and recover and adventure some more, but it is, it is a lifestyle more than a career. [00:08:56] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. What does that look like for you, Thomas? So are you guiding road trips into Spain one week and then gravel trips in, in France? How does, how does the year end up playing out? So [00:09:07] - ():  Thomas English: at the end of the year, when -you've already guided a little bit, which I travel, you submit a survey to the favorite regions or your favorite regions, your top five. **** - (): I think it is, um, places you'd rather you'd like to go guide. And if you're lucky, you're going to get a few of those pics. Um, but for the, for the main part, you're, you're assigned to a region for a duration of time. It can go from, um, A couple of trips to a whole bunch of different trips in that region. **** - (): We have regions that also cover multiple trips. If I take Provence, for instance, we're actually running three trips out of there and nearly a fourth with the gravel, which will be leaving Provence and going all the way to Spain and sorry, Catalonia and Girona. And so. That's, that's more or less how it operates. **** - (): You're assigned and then you, you'll guide multiple weeks in a row. We try and we try and do maybe three weeks in one week off as a rhythm. [00:10:04] - ():  Craig Dalton: Got it. Yeah. And my, my experience with the team in Girona was that, that between the two guides, they would switch off between time in the van. And time riding. It wasn't lost on me that you've got it as a guide. **** - (): You've got to be motivated and enthusiastic every day. You're out there on the bike with guests as a guest. If we're tired, if we're grumpy, we can suffer and let you know it. But I imagine as a guide, you're really there to elevate the spirit and never share if you're down. Are there days on the bike when you're guiding that you're just tired? [00:10:41] - ():  Thomas English: Oh, yes, absolutely. And, but you don't show it. I think it comes from, from an inner part of you, it's, that's what I said by it's a lifestyle more than a career. It's, um, we always swap with, uh, our co guides. Uh, so one of us is going to be in the support van, one of us is going to be on the bike. It takes different shifts, uh, depending on the trips and the parameters. **** - (): Uh, but yes, you, you're always on, we're always on top of things. And. You know, a lot of people on the outside of the job think that we are the fittest cyclists out there and you've got to be an absolute athlete. You, you get the training for sure. And, and some guys are more into cycling than others. Uh, but the, the real, the reality behind it is we take care of people no matter what. **** - (): Yeah. [00:11:24] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that's, you know, I see this. All over the place, right? You have people who are innately just skilled at being good spirited, being uplifting and having had that experience with truck travel and that Girona gravel tour definitely saw that like it was more about the experience. **** - (): None of the riders were trying to show how strong they were as athletes, although clearly they were, they were really there to just make sure we were having a great time. And that's what I think is so great about traveling on bike as a guest and gravel travel in particular. You just have a team around you whose sole job it is to not only find the best rides and routes for you, find the best cafes, create the best overall experience. **** - (): And it is, you know, it's obviously an investment taking one of these trips, but there is a pretty massive return when all you need to do as a guest is ride your bike all day. [00:12:25] - ():  Thomas English: Yes, and I'll double up, I'll double up on that in a way that I think you come on a holiday to be on a holiday and There is nothing more relaxing entertaining Fulfilling as when you sign up and you just let go of everything and you just have to enjoy it That's that's the main part is we take care of all the rest the you know, the logistics It's not that you're not necessarily capable of Of it, you know, I've, I've caught myself going on multiple guided trips, whether it's hiking or other activities, um, other than cycling and you, you, you appreciate having the, the local expertise, you know, it, it might not be something that's, that's in the itinerary, you know, but, but your guides might know so much about the geology, the plants, or even just the best cafe, because that's where they cycle past every morning and that's their local, their local terrain or their backyard. **** - (): And that's where it makes the whole, the whole world of difference. You. Okay. The impact of, of that vacation or of that experience on your life is so different when you actually witness it with someone local and you share it with friends. Yeah, a [00:13:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: hundred percent. I want to jump into the Provence to Girona gravel bike tour. **** - (): This is very much a tour because it's point to point the experience I had with track out of Girona. We stayed in a single hotel and we explored routes in every single direction, which was fantastic. But as I've said before on this podcast, there's something about point to point travel or touring or what have you that is incredibly special. **** - (): So how did the idea for the Provence to Girona gravel route come up? And then we can dig into some of [00:14:08] - ():  Thomas English: the details. Okay, so that also refers to a question you previously asked on what does the life of a guide look like? Well, to be quite frank if I'm not guiding a trip with people on board I'm usually bikepacking and I've got the packs all set up on the gravel bike and I'm sleeping outside Which sounds ridiculous to a lot of people in on this planet But it's actually one of the most freeing experiences you you can get out there for yourself. **** - (): It doesn't have to be far It's sometimes just right out right out your front door and you just roll to a place you haven't checked out or you haven't seen and It is the most it is the most freeing thing and you're also you feel very Self sufficient it teaches you a lot of different things and skills where you have to approach people and places Uh, but the main idea behind this trip from Provence to Girona, and we named it that way because there, there are two places that actually ring, uh, or resonate to cyclists, uh, whether they're roadies or already very much accomplished gravel riders. **** - (): Uh, it was the first point to point that we, we were thinking of putting in the book. It's based on a race called, a race route called La Poco Loco that came together, I think in 2019. And it's very tracks since then, but that's what really inspired me initially, and I had written portions of it in a, in a few bits and pieces and on different holiday times. **** - (): And this was the perfect, this was a perfect opportunity to actually start from one point, go all the way and see if we can actually make it work with hotels and accommodations and places to check out. It [00:15:46] - ():  Craig Dalton: sounds super special. What is, I imagine over the course of that Provence to Girona, the terrain is going to vary quite wildly. **** - (): Can you talk through a little bit and if it's helpful to talk through the various nine days, just what is gravel like in Provence and how does it change over the course of those nine days? [00:16:09] - ():  Thomas English: So I can give you a global overview of of the trip if you want not to go into too much detail because nine days is It's quite epic and and you do see a lot But I do want to say that I grew up in in the area where we begin the trip in so, you know I remember I remember being in in my youth in my young age and teenager and adventuring here and there at the weekends And putting all these things together in the culture of the South, because it's, it's a very strong culture in the South of France. **** - (): And this, the, the, the landscape had me stop and take many pictures. Of a place that I've, you know, I've grow, I've, I grew up in. You, you get accustomed to seeing these things on a regular basis. And coming back to it a few years later, it stops you. You're, you're blown away by the beauty of summer's scenery. **** - (): And when I say that, it's on the first day, for instance, We will start the trip and we'll greet everybody, uh, right by the, a bit of a, it's a, it's a swampland where it's famous for ornithology for birdwatching, uh, just south of Montpellier. So imagine a huge city, all buzzling and whistling and noisy and, you know, just the heart of a big city and you just escape, we greet you in this, you know, you just come off the train or come out of the airport and we greet you in this really quiet bird sanctuary. **** - (): With a nice French buffet, you know, proper Provence, there might be some rosé involved for those who, who want to start with that, um, giving you a few, a few bits and knots about the culture and the area you're in and throughout those first 60Ks, which is quite a, quite a bit for a first day, you get to see everything, so much variety from, from the sea, the sea, the salt flats to. The hills, a bit. Of vineyards here and there and the, and the pine forests. **** - (): I mean, you, you, I can't wait to see the smiles on people's faces when we reached the hotel after the first day. Sounds [00:18:05] - ():  Craig Dalton: like an amazing start. [00:18:06] - ():  Thomas English: It is. It is true. So as I was saying, we, we did the Reese, we did the research with my roommates. Who's a, who's a true design coordinator and she's not from the region, but both of us were like kids. **** - (): And you know, it's, it's the joy and the accomplishments of bringing something together that actually works out. And to see the, the, the versatile, the, how versatile the, the. The bike actually is on different terrains. You, you ride a bit of, you know, open forest road to single track, um, and all this on the, under the blue Provence skies, because, you know, it is subject to a bit of wind from the north, um, let her mountain or the missile for the East as you go. **** - (): It's, it's, it's a superb. It's just an area of France that is very underestimated because it's. It's usually some some somewhere between a place you just drive through to get to Spain or you just go to Montpellier or like a few places on the coast, but people don't really stop on these on these areas. **** - (): So. We've got these beautiful barren landscapes in, in some part of the trips that are just untouched, not no cyclists. You just, it's just epic adventure. [00:19:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's, what's mind boggling to me when I think about this trip is just the, the versatility of the gravel bike, that's easy to maybe to conceive of a point to point ride on a road bike. **** - (): And you're sort of following a map, but traveling onto these single track trails and just kind of getting off the beaten path just adds this additional layer of. Intrigue and joy. I think on each day's ride. And I [00:19:40] - ():  Thomas English: think we we call, you know, the inner child in our in ourselves. Um, I think a lot of cyclists will refer to that. **** - (): But I think gravel in many ways has a bit of an adventurous spirit. And you might agree with me on that one. But, you know, it kind of takes you out there. You're not on a on a on the road. You might be leaving civilization for a little bit. We've designed this trip so we can always access you. The route in many points, but for the most part, you know, the whole stress of having traffic and cars around you that you might have on on on the road or uncertain of our road trips, even though we do take very quiet roads there. **** - (): It's it's in existence. You won't have, you know. Any vehicles on most of our itineraries because we're, we're mainly on, on gravel and yes, like from, from one place to the next, you'll, you'll see us, uh, a part of the landscape that not many people get to witness or get to see because it is completely different experience from sitting in the car or riding on the road than being on those single tracks. **** - (): Yeah, [00:20:48] - ():  Craig Dalton: absolutely. What are the next handful of days have in store for riders? [00:20:53] - ():  Thomas English: So yes, I, I touched base on the, on the first one. Sorry, I was, I was kind of selling that first day because. It blew our minds. So I think I like I said, I can't wait to see people smiles as we roll into the first hotel. It is a point to point. **** - (): So we are going to be changing hotel every day apart from our fifth day where we'll have a proper rest day. Um, but the first day we, we leave Montpellier where, where it's, it will be more of a greeting point. Beautiful scenery on those first 60 K's through like what I've said before, the difference. Uh, see. **** - (): Salt flats, single track, into the forest, up in the hills, back in through into vineyards. And we, we have a hotel a little bit on the outskirts of the city. Where the French rugby team has actually been hosted for the trainings, if you, if you want a little, the little hints there. But so, no rugby match on that first evening. **** - (): The next day we kind of sneak out through a secret passage that follows a river out of the city. And we're heading to one of my favorite places in France, which is called Le Lac de Salagout. Uh, the Salago Lake famous spot for kite surfers and for geologists because the soil is a bit of an ochre red. It very much has the color of grapes, so not to bring it to too close to wine, but that's my French side. **** - (): Um, you cross the hills and you arrive on this beautiful blue emerald lake with this, this red kind of, you know, tar looking gravel. It makes a mess of the bikes and it makes them look very adventurous all of a sudden because they get covered in this little red, red dust. Uh, but it's an epic scene to arrive and we're staying in the village. **** - (): That's a little bit the outskirt of it in the national park called Moore's and it's very famous for its, um, Dolom, Dolomitic, uh, rock formations where erosion is just left. These huge limestone columns, uh, beautiful maze of, that was just shaped by nature, uh, and our hotel is, is nestled into that, into that rock face. **** - (): And there'll be a nice little pool to, to relax after, after a big day on the bike. So, like I said, we go a little bit further up north after the first day where we were actually stationed by the sea. On the third day, we leave that beautiful area in the quiet morning, and we hit the hills. There'll be a bit of climbing in the morning. **** - (): And for those who have got an idea of what Provence looks like, or the whispers you've heard of the adventures down there, we're going to be going through a few stone villages. Very, very French. You might come across a You know, to a dish vu like these iconic French cars or markets. Or we can stop and have CA coffee and a cafe, uh, to cross the plains from these hilly villages or hilly, hilly based villages all the way to a bigger town, again called busier. **** - (): Which is famous for multiple reasons, but we're, we'll have a nice sit down lunch in a very retro French cafe where people are playing Pétanque just outside, uh, in front of a lock, you know, we sat there and all the locals were coming around to chat us up. So, you know, it might take a bit longer than scheduled. **** - (): Don't be in a rush there. It is a big day. Uh, but that's, that's kind of the idea, um, is to actually enjoy the ambience and the culture as you're, you're crossing these landscapes, not just whizzing past. [00:24:23] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Taking an opportunity to enjoy the riding as well as the culture seems like the reason you'd be there for sure. [00:24:32] - ():  Thomas English: A hundred percent. And so that brings me on to the fourth day. So Béziers is a bit, a bigger, a bigger town. We, we have lunch on the outskirts of it, by that lock, as I, as I presented. And there, there are famous pieces of architecture, if, if this is what you enjoy in, in the French history. We are going to go past some very impressive monuments that I can state later. **** - (): Um, and we follow what we call Le Canal du Midi. Which is a, a French icon. A lot of people, a lot of French people would actually go down there on holiday, uh, either rent a boat or kayak up and down this canal. Um, it is, it is a beautiful piece of French architecture and the waterways in France are famous in the history of, of the country for transporting goods, you know, the different wars and battles, why was it separated here or there, uh, the historical borders as well. **** - (): But this, this third day finishes. Back back on the coast again after following this famous canal and we'll be heading we'll be heading the next day. And getting closer to the, to the Pyrenees to go to a place called Billister after crossing a few national parks and famous birdwatching areas again, um, we'll, we'll be climbing a little bit more than the previous days. **** - (): The third day and the fourth day are quite, quite. Big days on the bike. So it's not for the faint hearted, but we'll support everybody, you know Croissant takes you a long way as they say and there's one thing in France for sure is you can't you can't go hungry Because once you've done this little, you know section of gravel you come across this little village and there'll be a bakery and for sure You know the smell of it everything just kind of entices you to get down there and grab something to go So we'll make sure you try the good ones And there are some specialties of the South that are proper to the South, um, that you can only find in the bakeries down there and we'll make sure you try them. **** - (): Um, and you know, that fuels the climb up to this little village of Belista, which used to be one of the main points of interest in, in this area for, uh, white wine growing. Um, they, they still do. It used to be a massive cooperative and we are staying in a, in a hotel called Le Riberac. It is. It is something out of this world. **** - (): We were astonished by what they've done with this eco lodge. You might be sleeping in a wine tank. Yes, we are sleeping in a wine tank. Um, there are spa and, you know, different treatments you can do all around the grape over there. It is one of a kind. It is a place that was designed by two amazing architects. **** - (): The owners is an amazing couple that we got to meet and had the pleasure to have a nice glass and a sit down conversation with. And they really have, you know, an ambience about this, this whole environment that they created, the team that they put together. They still have a part of, um, the cellar that is functional, that, uh, gathers most of, uh, the winemakers of the area as a cooperative. **** - (): And the wine, the wine is delicious down there. The, the riding up will maybe annoy a few, maybe. make others enjoy the adventure twice as much. Um, you know, we all come at a different, at a different place when it comes to climbing on a bike, but that's a good place to finish day four solid before a rest day. **** - (): And we are, we are entering what we call peak at that, which was the scene of multiple combats between, uh, what used to be the Spanish empire and France at a time. And, you know, these perched castles up on the hills, this limestone rock face and this little tower up top with a, with a, with a Catalan flag and the border changed so many times in the past, you know, hundreds of years or decades that it's, it's just very interesting to see the cultural changes throughout the trip because you go from a very Provence, French, uh, south, south of France part with all its influences and its culture. **** - (): And the food evolves as you go down the coast, getting closer to Spanish influence and, you know, the way people talk and behave and, oh, it's just, it's just superb. You get to see that even with a foreign eye, I think. Yeah, it's so [00:28:54] - ():  Craig Dalton: interesting to see and hear that not only will the terrain change, but you'll get these subtle changes in culture across the nine days, uh, changing from the south of France culture to the Catalan culture at the end. [00:29:11] - ():  Thomas English: Absolutely. And if, and if you've been to Gerona, as I've heard you, you've experienced that, that part of the culture and, and, you know, cycling. Cycling is international. It's, it is a universal language. Um, uh, there is a bike in every country you go to, and that's, that's not a lie, that's the truth. But the, the culture that a com, you know, comes with it. **** - (): Maybe the French and the Spanish or the French and the Catalan don't necessarily see the bike. In the same way, you know, maybe the French will use it as a commuter to go get their fresh baguettes from the bakers in the morning, whereas Catalan people will use it to go from, you know, place to place or there's always a different use for it. **** - (): But this, this, this area we're going to is not famous for, you know, holiday and it's not overcrowded. We're really taking you. On, on the unpaved. Uh, this is a proper adventure. Um, we're taking all these, these detours to get to Ballista, um, which is definitely, definitely one of my, one of my crushes for, um, for this trip, because we'll have a rest day in that little village. **** - (): We'll probably have, Awesome activities to go enjoy off the bike for those who want to. You also have the opportunity to, you know, relax because we do come, we do cover between 350 kilometers and 400 kilometers over the first four days. It is a pretty. High level trip, we, we classify as avid. So not to be intimidated by it. **** - (): It does require quite a bit of, you know, physical preparation and a good level of, of writing, uh, but the, but the, the technicity of the gravel stays stays very accessible in many ways. And it's all about how, if you're okay with adventuring the whole day on the bike, you'll, you'll enjoy this trip very much the same as we did my roommates. **** - (): Um. Uh, actually used, uh, the money plus, which is the assist version of our gravel bike and she absolutely loved it. And, you know, we have very different levels of cycling, the 2 of us, but we kept it together and, you know, it's, it's just very complimentary. You get to enjoy the adventure together. So a big rest day on day 5, uh, to recover from, you know, 4 days of adventuring already. **** - (): Uh, there's a pool at the hotel. It's an eco lodge. So they have all these amazing green certifications. We, we do a great job at Trek Travel at building relationships with the people we work with, because I don't see us as a big tour operator where we just walk in, you know, give our standards and, and then, you know, move on to the next season or go somewhere else next season. **** - (): We do build these relationships, and I think you feel it on trip with us. If you've traveled with us before you, you get to appreciate. All the little details that we look into, we always try and better, um, the experience, you know, when you, when you arrive in Bethesda, I can tell you already, uh, Raquel, who's, uh, actually from Madrid originally, who's just fallen in love. With. That region. [00:32:18] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's so special as you were mentioning before. I mean, one of the really. Exciting parts of getting a guided tour is having these locals who can show you the ins and outs of the local area and the hotspots and the great riding. Phenomenal. **** - (): So it sounds like at this point, you're up for arrest day. [00:32:39] - ():  Thomas English: A hundred percent. Yes, it's, it's just, it's, it's going to be, it's going to be, uh, you know, not a resurrection, but it will be, it will be one of those that you actually need to push on for sure. **** - (): And, and we'll see if people are up for activities, but I'm, I'm already guaranteeing a lot of people will stay back and say, we need a day to just relax and recover and prepare for the next four. But we, on the fifth day, we, we start tackling the Pyrenees. , we'll be going through what we call the, this, this, the circus. It's, um, it's this beautiful, uh, ochre lime, um, formation, rock formation facing Canigou, which is one of the highest peaks, uh, in this part of the Pyrenees. So you can, you can see this, this dark mountain in the background, uh, slowly getting closer. **** - (): And you got all these different rock formations that we're snaking through to and getting closer and closer to the mountain will be staying in in an old, um, spa and treatment, um, uh, facility area on on the night of day six, uh, to tackle called Dallas on day seven. So. If you, if you, if you, if you've had too much gravel over the, the first six days, don't, don't worry, we've got you covered with a bit of pavement just to, just to rest, uh, a little bit from gravel on, on day seven, because Col d'Arès is, is definitely a stinger, as we call it in, in, in the area, um, it is a bit of a steep one for 13, 13 kilometers, and we do have a section of gravel for those who, who want to keep the trend going, uh, it is, the base of it is this beautiful medieval town where, uh, We'll offer a bit of a treat and, you know, a bit of a quick snack if people want to start tackling the climb on a, on a, a bit of a light bite. **** - (): And once you reach the top, it can be, it can be two, two rooms, two ambiance, as we say in French. Um, it can either be beautiful and sunny or, uh, as it was when we were up there, uh, last fall, quite miserable and windy. Uh, but the views on the Pyrenees that you get from up there no matter what, are just. **** - (): Absolutely stunning. And you descend all the way to this Catalan village after crossing the border, um, called Camprodon, famous for its beautiful stone arch bridge. And from there we are in Catalonia. And the following day, day eight, takes us along the Vies Verdes, uh, which is an old rail to trail, uh, all reconverted. **** - (): Um, it is part of the Pyrenees, if you've heard and followed some of the racing across the Pyrenees. So we are going to be, like, using some of these tracks. And it's beautiful, what we call Catalan gravel. It's very nice, you know, small compact limestone. It takes you all the way back into the Mecca of cycling today, Girona. **** - (): And you will definitely feel the Catalan countryside. If you've been on the Girona gravel trip, you know what I'm referring to, but you will, you will smell, you will, we say you will taste, because usually you have a bit of stuff on your water bottle, and we have the tips for you there, um, but it's, it's, you, you, you get a second country on, on this trip and it hits you like, like a, like a day ride. **** - (): I don't know how to, how to say it in any other way. You cross this border and, um, You're, you're, you're in Catalonia and on these gravel paths, just, um, you know, flying along, along the Via Verde, you, you enter Girona from, from the back, the back door, and we are, we will be staying at Hotel Nord, which I think you say that on our, on our trip there, um, which is the perfect, you know, little nest in, into the city. **** - (): And, yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good way to, to go from, from the South of France, Provence, specific architectural types, all the way into a completely different culture, a completely different, you know, language, accents, influence, uh, but you, you'll, you'll get to, you'll get to feel the connection between the two countries, between that border that's been distorted over the years and the centuries. **** - (): Um, you'll, you'll definitely get that cultural aspect of the trip because we, we felt it as we were, as we were prepping it and we have a, a, a, a nice last day ride, uh, just to, to spend the legs more, more or less, um, before we say farewell. And that's a, a good way to, um, a good way to then spend a bit of time in Girona if you want to stay in Girona or head towards Barcelona, which is another great city to explore after Montpellier in France. **** - (): Um, this, yeah, this trip kind of starts and finishes in, in two really cool points of interest as well, which is another good reason to, to come and join this adventure. [00:37:26] - ():  Craig Dalton: Amazing. Anything else you'd like to add about the trip before we go? [00:37:30] - ():  Thomas English: you know, you create some pretty special bonds over nine days. Uh, sometimes it is over the rest day. Sometimes it's straight off the first day. Um, we are going to be riding these amazing checkpoints as it are seven top, top end, uh, gravel bike. Um, 45 seat tires, which is very comfortable, but after, after eight days of proper riding, you'll probably be in need of a good rest and maybe sometime off the bike. [00:37:56] - ():  Craig Dalton: What an amazing journey and adventure. Thanks so much for coming on and telling us about this trip. It sounds fantastic. I have a love for these point to point adventures. And everything you've described from the terrain to the cultural changes that you're going to experience over the nine days makes this track travel trip. **** - (): Sound amazing. **** - (): Thank you for spending some time with us this evening. And I look forward to seeing you in France at some point. [00:38:24] - ():  Thomas English: Thanks a lot. [00:38:25] - ():  Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed learning more about that. to Gerona adventure that Trek travel has in store for us. They've got some slots this year, I think starting at the end of April. **** - (): So head on over to track travel.com and check out some of the photos to go with. Thomas's great. Narration of the trip. **** - (): I hope everyone's 20, 24 is filled with many, a gravel adventure. **** - (): Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

 

 

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Stefan Barth, author of the book "Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking: All You Need to Know." Stefan shares his journey into ultra cycling and bikepacking, discussing the challenges and unique aspects of these long-distance events. He highlights the importance of sleep, nutrition, and positioning in preparing for and competing in ultra cycling races. Stefan also emphasizes the need for a strong physical foundation and the role of mindset in overcoming obstacles during these demanding events.

Ultra Cycling and Bike Packing. All you need to know (Amazon link)

ISBN: 978-3-910501-03-4

Episode Sponsor: Pillar Performance (use code: CRAIG for 15% off)

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About the Guest(s):

Stefan Barth is an author and coach specializing in ultra cycling and bikepacking. Based in Frankfurt, Germany, Stefan has a passion for long-distance cycling events and has participated in races such as the Race Across America and the Transcontinental. With a background in medical fitness coaching, Stefan combines his knowledge of training, nutrition, and mindset to help athletes prepare for and succeed in ultra cycling events.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Stefan Barth, author of the book "Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking: All You Need to Know." Stefan shares his journey into ultra cycling and bikepacking, discussing the challenges and unique aspects of these long-distance events. He highlights the importance of sleep, nutrition, and positioning in preparing for and competing in ultra cycling races. Stefan also emphasizes the need for a strong physical foundation and the role of mindset in overcoming obstacles during these demanding events.

Key Takeaways:

• Ultra cycling and bikepacking require a different approach to training compared to shorter races. Factors such as sleep, nutrition, and positioning become crucial in ensuring success.
• Sleep strategies vary depending on the duration of the event. While shorter races may not require sleep, longer races necessitate planned sleep breaks to maintain physical and mental well-being.
• Nutrition plays a vital role in sustaining energy levels during ultra cycling events. Experimenting with different foods and finding what works best for individual digestion is essential.
• Positioning on the bike is crucial for efficiency and energy conservation. An aggressive position, combined with flexibility and mobility training, can improve performance and reduce energy expenditure.
• Building endurance for ultra cycling involves training at or just below threshold levels for extended periods. Long intervals of 20-30 minutes at high intensity can help increase the ability to sustain effort near threshold.

Notable Quotes:

• "Just because it's possible to push through doesn't mean it's fun. Cutting off sleep is a sure way to get rid of the fun." - Stefan Barth
• "Your base or your fundamentals are always a good physical condition. That's what you really need to finish those events." - Stefan Barth

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

 [TRANSCRIPT] **** - (): . [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport **** - (): I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. **** - (): This week on the podcast, I've got the great pleasure of welcoming author and coach Stefan Barth. He's the author of a book called ultra cycling and bike packing. All you need to know that was recently translated from German to English. It's a very deep technical book. About ultra cycling and these long distance events. Highlighting how different the training. Preparation and otherwise competing successfully the events. Needs to occur. **** - (): Stefan noted that in his preparation for ultrasonic. Recycling events. While he could cobble together a number of resources, podcasts, videos, et cetera. There was no singular location. That highlighted insights and philosophies and training methodologies. That he could find. So he sat on a journey to create the, this book. They look forward to jumping into the conversation with Stefan. **** - (): Okay. Before we jump in, I do need to thank pillar performance for their support of this episode. Pillars of sports, micro nutrition company. Who's developed products that intersect between pharmaceutical intervention and sports supplements for athletes. As I mentioned previously, I'm really thinking about my overall health and wellbeing this year. **** - (): Trying to make some changes from a lackluster 2023. **** - (): My nighttime routine and sleep has become a crucial part of being able to perform my best pillars. Triple magnesium is informed by leading heart rate variability researcher, Dr. Dan Pluse and used by many high performing athletes. Pillar has recently signed on as the official micronutrition partner of Israel, premier tech. It has been integral to my end of the day routine. 30 minutes before sleep. **** - (): I mix in one scoop of pillar's triple magnesium powder into a glass of water to help guarantee my body spends as much time. In REM and deep sleep as possible. Pillar uses a high dose of glycinate magnesium. Activating the parasympathetic nervous system. And ensuring you fall asleep. And stay in that restorative sleep phase longer and longer. I've been tracking my HRV data each morning and it speaks volumes as to what pillar triple magnesium is doing for my recovery, higher HRV and more closely linked REM and deep sleep cycles on top of that. I feel better. More rested and recovered. If you'd like to try pillar today, head on over to pillar performance.shop. For us listeners, you can head to the feed.com/pillar and enter the code Craig for 15% off. That's Craig C R a I G for 15% off all first-time purchases. Would that behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Stefan. [00:03:22] - ():  Stefan Barth: Stephane, welcome to the show. Hi, Greg. [00:03:25] - ():  Craig Dalton: I'm excited to get you, to know you a little bit better and learn more about the book you wrote Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking, All You Need to Know. As we were talking about offline, I think it's a very interesting journey where many of us honor are on as cyclists from starting to do gravel events, starting to do longer gravel events, getting interested in bikepacking. **** - (): And I think as the sports evolve and the science of training evolves, it's super interesting to have a discussion with someone like you has thought a lot about. Ultra cycling, how to train for it. You've thought so much about it that you've written a book [00:04:03] - ():  Stefan Barth: about it. Yeah. And glad that it got translated into English. **** - (): So more and more people are able to read it now. So I'm really looking forward to our chat. [00:04:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's so maybe that's a good point to let's, let's set the stage where you located and maybe follow that on by where did you grow up and how did you discover cycling in the [00:04:25] - ():  Stefan Barth: first place? Okay. Yes, I'm from, from Germany and I'm located in Frankfurt here. **** - (): And yeah, so the book is about ultra cycling and bike packing. And that actually is where I started my cycling career. So it was like always. I was, I was driven to the, to the longer, longer events. And even when I started cycling as a teenager, it was always, okay, I want to go the, for the 100 kilometers to the town that is a little bit farther away. **** - (): Uh, most of my friends, they were not able to reach these towns even by the bus. And I was feeling very, very cool just to be able to go there by bike. And somehow this, this got my addiction to long distance cycling starting and yeah, it developed from that. So. I'm probably a young starter, so I think it was like with 14 years that I did my first free day ride and yeah, then it escalated quickly. [00:05:29] - ():  Craig Dalton: And did you ever get drawn into kind of more traditional bike racing or was touring and long distance riding always your true love? Yeah, only [00:05:38] - ():  Stefan Barth: for a short time. I had like a triathlon time. So I had a couple of years when I was more doing Ironman distance triathlon races. And that was the time when I got more professional in cycling as well, because I got more, yeah, I focused more on competitive cycling. **** - (): And during that time I did a couple of criterium races, but it never really catched me, so it's not, yeah, it was not to my taste to, to ride in a, in a bunch and to always, uh, have this fear of, of, of a crash and I'm not the, the guy made for speed, but rather for, for long stretches and to, to feel like the, the exhaustion creep into your legs. **** - (): But. Because of the duration and not because of the intensity. [00:06:29] - ():  Craig Dalton: Got it. And where did your sort of professional life and, uh, and cycling start to intersect? [00:06:37] - ():  Stefan Barth: A couple of years ago, it was like really the time when I, when I did those Ironman distance races that was like the beginning of putting more thought into how should I prepare my body, how should I prepare my mind what do I need to do with nutrition to get better on those races and yeah, that's probably where I started to think, okay, I could or this is my passion and I, Will, well, I want to do something in my professional career in this area in the long term, and soon afterwards I started to go part-time as a coach. **** - (): And I did like, in Germany it's called medical fitness coaching. So I studied in an area where you put a lot of weight into how to. coach athletes, but at the same time, how to do rehab and prehab. Yes. And this I did some years in part time and I had a full time job in the finance sector. **** - (): And when I published the book or the German edition of the book, ultra cycling and bike packing at that time. I had to make a decision because both careers would have been, one career would compromise the other one. And then I decided, or it was pretty easy for me actually to decide that I want to, to have a job that is my passion at the same time. **** - (): And so I decided to go all in, in coaching and writing about coaching. [00:08:02] - ():  Craig Dalton: That's super interesting. And it makes sense given some of the very technical elements of the book. Around physiology that you lean into that we can talk a little bit about later. And it also makes sense that Ironman journey, which you and I share, I feel like as athletes, Ironman, it's one of those disciplines that highlights your deficiency of preparation very quickly, both physically nutrition and all kinds of things. **** - (): So I'm curious, you know, building off upon that, when did you start getting drawn into the more ultra distance cycling events? [00:08:40] - ():  Stefan Barth: Soon, soon after my first Ironman actually. And at that time I did like big bike packing trips as like base my training for Ironmans as well. So I, I always try to have one vacation in summer. **** - (): And be like three or four weeks with my bicycle and ride as many miles as possible to build a strong or a strong foundation for the Ironman training. And during that time, I noticed that there's a crazy race in America called the Race Across America. I think it was some time about 2013, probably, something like that. **** - (): When I heard the first time about this race across America and that there's an Austrian guy called Christoph Strasser, who's not living too far away from, from here who is really good at it. And I was like, okay, he's crossing the whole continent in 10 days. This is crazy. And that's what I want to do. **** - (): And yeah, that's, that's how I. Got drawn into this long distance cycling. And I think that actually kicked off here in Europe, quite a, uh, fascination for this sport in general, especially in Germany and Austria. And there popped up a little more and more 24 hour cycling events. And that was the beginning for me. **** - (): Then I started to, uh, to participate at these 24 hour events and yeah, just looked how, how much can I do or how long can I go in 24 hours? And then this evolved into supported races. So I did. A couple of races, ultra cycling races where I had my own support crew which is quite expensive and at the same time, more and more bike pack, bike packing events popped up here in Europe, like transcontinental and more and more smaller ones. **** - (): And yeah, then I switched. [00:10:36] - ():  Craig Dalton: You were talking about the transcontinental and some of these other. Ultra endurance road cycling events. How many days were those events taking? [00:10:46] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, I think that the first, when I, when I started the smaller ones were two or three day rides. And my longest one was, uh, nine, nine days, one hour. **** - (): So this is a bit more than three and a half thousand kilometers. It's [00:11:04] - ():  Craig Dalton: always super interesting to me when you kind of transcend that single day racing format to multi day format, to just understand the mentality. And I know some of this is included in the book, but I think it's great background before we get there. **** - (): How do you handle kind of sleep along the way [00:11:22] - ():  Stefan Barth: in those events? Yeah. It's, it differs between like ultra cycling is not ultra cycling, but it's important to make this this to distinguish between how long, or is it a multi day race or is it just 24 hours? Because I think in, in a 24 hours, uh, race, at least for me, there's no difficulty and uh, no sleep at all. **** - (): So if you're doing a 24 hour race. it's okay to have a stop time about 15 to 20 minutes only. And in a 48 hour race, it's still works for me without sleep, but just if you are practiced at it and everything beyond 48 hours is where it gets really tough and where I think you just have to sleep. probably can go with a napping strategy. **** - (): It's way more fun if you sleep. And that's something I think that some people underestimate the first time just because it's possible to push through doesn't mean it's fun. And to cut off the sleeping time is a sure way to get rid of the fun. That's for sure. [00:12:32] - ():  Craig Dalton: As you were, as you were pursuing these new and different style races, were you able to find the resources you needed to understand how to train and prepare for them, or was it more trial and error along [00:12:45] - ():  Stefan Barth: the way? **** - (): It was a lot trial and error and yes, there was, I think nowadays it's easier 10, 10 years later, there's a lot of more content on the internet and you have podcasts that go into different topics of ultra cycling and you have bloggers that post a lot but still there's not too much scientific background of it and when I started, I tried a lot shit. **** - (): By trial and error, and I also tried to find people obviously who have done it before, uh, try to talk with them, connect with them on social media, and at the events, use the time to, to have a couple of words with them. But it was a very. Uh, sometimes frustrating way because you have to invest a lot of time and you could not be sure that you, yeah, you get a return on your investment because yeah, then you, you tried something out, uh, for example, nutrition and I had like one huge mistake I made. **** - (): When I tried to copy the nutrition, nutrition strategy of Christoph Strasser from his race cross America. And he had like some, I don't know if it's sponsored product, but like some fluid nutrition and he was always telling, okay, he drinks like 200 milliliters of this. Uh, fluid per hour and that works fine for him and I was, okay, if it works for him, I should try it as well. **** - (): And I did it during a race and this was probably really one of my biggest mistakes because I totally underestimated that he's. probably something like 40 pounds heavier than me because I'm quite short and he puts in a lot of more power. And I totally underestimated how this power and this body weight factor correspond on your nutrition needs. **** - (): And I drank way too much and I consumed way too much energy which ended. in me at the roadside feeling very, very sick. And yeah, I had to do a complete restart. So I, I did finish the race, but after lying in the ditch for, for, I don't know, 30, 40 minutes I had to, to To build in a period drinking only water, don't eating anything, and just have a complete reset for my body and my mind, and then I could start again. **** - (): But yeah, that's, that's the mistakes that I made on the road. And that's what the book is about, that not everybody has to lie in this ditch and make the same mistakes all over again. [00:15:31] - ():  Craig Dalton: You sort of alluded to this in your answer there, but if we go back to sort of what inspired you to write a book, I'm just curious how you would answer that question. [00:15:41] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, it's at the beginning I was not planning on writing a book. So probably this is the most important part because when I started it was more like, okay. I. Okay. I had a lot of conversations and I have tried a lot of things and I wanted to write it down for myself first. So it was, was not planned to, to make a book out of it, but rather a compendium for myself for future events. **** - (): And also when I thought about starting a coaching business, business, this was like a blueprint for my clients. And then I started to talk to other athletes about what I had until that moment, and they were really, really interested in this whole topic and to have a compendium for how to best prepare for ultra cycling events. **** - (): And yeah, then I started thinking, okay, maybe I should look up into more and more papers and maybe I should add some, some new chapters to it. And at that time I started with the interview. So the book incorporates a couple of. Of interviewees or a couple of interviews I did with other athletes and I started with those who are my friends, obviously. **** - (): And we just sat at a table for, I think with Mati Koester, I sat for almost eight hours and we talked the whole day about what are topics that he's interested in. And then I used these, yeah, guideline or these topics that we discussed that day to go to other athletes, also to some, yeah, some very renowned athletes, and just to ask them about their, their experiences to in these topics. **** - (): And somehow the interest was. Yeah. Overwhelming. Because when I started, I started with people I know and at the end I talked to Lael Wilcox and at the beginning I would not, would not have thought that I will be talking to someone like Lael Wilcox about her racing experiences and be able to incorporate them into, into my book. **** - (): So yeah, it was a process and it almost took four years from the beginning of. When I started to write down the first sentences until I finished the book in German, it's almost four years. So it was probably a way longer than normal, normally an author would take to write one book. [00:18:11] - ():  Craig Dalton: Got it. Super interesting. **** - (): Obviously there's a lot of information about. Cycling training out there when you talk about maybe road racing or traditional mountain bike racing. And as we've mentioned, there hasn't been a lot documented about training for ultra cycling and bike packing. If there were a couple areas that you would highlight that are dramatically different from shorter races to longer races. [00:18:35] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, we talked about one, which is like sleep, something that is completely unimportant for normal sports, or which is only important when you talk about recovery, but there's No need to cut sleep during doing races. And of course, nutrition is a big, big part because nutrition becomes even more important, the longer the races, also the whole part efficiency and how you sit on your bike, how it gets way more important because. **** - (): You develop more problems with your neck, with your shoulders, with your lower back than if you are just riding your bike for five or six hours. And also the training aspect is different. So it's not just about pushing your lactate threshold or your, your, or getting more power to the pedal because at the end, it's not necessarily the efflet. **** - (): With the most power or the best power to weight ratio that wins the races, but it's the one that has the best overall ability to ride the bike as long as possible. And with as few breaks as possible. So many questions are coming to mind on this. Oh, okay. So let's go give it a shot [00:19:53] - ():  Craig Dalton: to some of those a little bit one by one. **** - (): So we talked a little bit about sleep. Obviously. Most of us, we try to get eight hours of sleep a night when we're at home, try to do rides well rested every time in order to compete in some of these events. And in order to even maybe just do them, you need to be able to sleep outside. You need to be able to sleep on the go when you, maybe it's easiest if we talk about a four day long event, for example, what is a sleep strategy that Maybe someone newer to the sport could, could realize and approach. [00:20:30] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah. Yeah. At the beginning, I would always recommend to have like a longer sleeping break every night, something like maybe three hours or three hours sleeping time, which will translate into something like four or four and a half hours stopping time. And the important thing is to sleep cycles, you know, because your, your body or your mind, your brain goes through different sleep stages during the course of the night. **** - (): And I think a lot of people already heard this that it's. It's easier to wake up if your total sleeping time can be divided by 90 minutes. And this reflects those sleep cycles. It's easier to, or you have one, you have four, four sleep stages. And one of them is where you are sleeping really, really deep. **** - (): And if you wake up or if you get woken by your alarm clock or friends, whatever during this really deep sleep this will be very confusing and you can actually, if, if it is combined with the physical exhaustion it can happen that you wake up and you're feeling disoriented and you don't really know where am I, am I racing or what's going on? **** - (): So it's good to know your own. sleep cycles because they differ from this 90 minutes a little bit and they get like they get each time you go through them during the night they get a little bit longer so if you are trying to sleep three hours around three hours the for most people it's better to sleep for example three hours and 10 minutes which reduces already the risk of waking up from this deep sleep stage. **** - (): And then I would always recommend to have routines if you're going for four or five day ride. It's way easier to go to bed around the same time every evening and to wake up around the same time every morning. It's a little bit like in your everyday life. If you're working on shifts and Yeah, you have to, uh, some day you are waking up at 6am, sometimes you have to wake up at 10am, then it gets really, really hard to to be fit in the morning. **** - (): And during the event, it's the same, it's way easier to have a routine and also transfer this routine as or as much as possible to the whole cycling event. For example, also, it's a good idea to have your lunch break around the same time each, each day which makes life way easier, especially for [00:23:06] - ():  Craig Dalton: beginners. **** - (): I imagine so. One of the things I wanted to highlight, which I thought was interesting, you mentioned, you know, if you're intending for a three hour sleep, you probably need a four hour window of time. And as someone with a limited amount of bike packing experience, I can, I understand that because you need to get off the bike, you need to cool down. **** - (): You may need to change to get comfortable. You have to lay out your sleep gear, and then you have to do all that in reverse to get yourself back going. So it's interesting. To hear you highlight that, which makes sense as you've [00:23:38] - ():  Stefan Barth: said it. Yes. And that's also one, uh, very, very good advice. Which I learned from, from one of my interviewees because a lot of us, we are quite organized and we like, like it's structured. **** - (): And so a lot of people when they do their first bikepacking experiences and they have this sleep break. They like, they, uh, arranged their whole equipment so that after their sleep break, they can be moving as fast or, yeah, yeah, as fast as possible. So like you're already putting out the gear that you're needing after your sleep break and that oftentimes is a huge mistake actually, because if you push your, your, your limits a little bit, then you are already a bit sleep deprived, maybe, and you're a physical, like, physically completely exhausted when you have been writing for maybe 15 hours this day. **** - (): And then you are trying to make decisions before you go to sleep. And oftentimes you need way longer to make decisions. And then those decisions are Not always the best ones because after you wake up, you notice, ah, it's way colder than I expected, or I feel way colder because just my yeah, my, my heart rate is really, really slow after, after sleeping but I already packed my, my warm clothes. **** - (): at the complete, uh, yeah, the most down, downward, uh, in my, in my bike packing bags. And so it's a good, good advice to just grab your sleeping bag, grab your mattress or whatever you use, your BB bag, and just close your eyes. Try to fall asleep immediately. Don't forget to put your alarm clock, but, uh, do the whole equipment thing and arrangements. **** - (): You can do this all after you have slept and you will notice that you are way more alert, you are awake and you will make better decisions. The second [00:25:40] - ():  Craig Dalton: thing you mentioned to drill into was nutrition. And again, many of us have done gravel events, a hundred mile, maybe 200 mile. And we sort of know, Oh, we could get by with. **** - (): Sports nutrition all day long, how do, how do we need to think about it differently if we're extending to that example, four day event? [00:25:58] - ():  Stefan Barth: Also there's yeah, there's some parts are for nutrition. Some parts are the same like in normal cycling, especially. during training. So it's you have the same amounts of carbs per hour that you try to get in during your training rides, for example, so that you get the best physical adaptions. **** - (): But at the same time you need to plan ahead and think about what can you get during a bikepacking trip, because you are limited oftentimes to gas station food or. Uh, if you're doing races in remote places, like the Silk Road Mountain Race or the Atlas Mountain Race, uh, well, you have to eat what you can get there. **** - (): So it's always good advice to experiment a lot with nutrition so that you know, uh, which kind of food can I take down, which kind of food can I stomach. And what do I like probably because yeah, if you are used to going with sports nutrition or with sweets I don't know if you ever tried to, to survive on those sports nutrition gills and, uh, bars for, for eight hours. [00:27:07] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, it does add up and you do get quite sick of them by the end of the day. [00:27:12] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah. And I think you get a feeling in your mouth that's like sticky and doesn't feel, feel very nice. So, yeah, it's good to know this in advance. And to experiment with other foods also with solid foods that you can buy like cheese or like sandwiches and like, uh, like rice and stuff like this if just to try it out and to learn, can you digest it? **** - (): Does it taste good for you during writing? So this, this would be like the first step to, to get a bit more experience with different kinds of foods. And then another part is like proteins. You need proteins on a longer ride, uh, even though you don't need them. During short rides, because your body is not, or it's, it's easier for your body to, to transform carbs into energy. **** - (): But during a four day ride, you also need proteins for your recovery periods, especially if you plan on sleeping three hours every night, because then your body actually has the time to recover a little bit [00:28:19] - ():  Craig Dalton: from day to day. Where, in your opinion, where is the cutoff point for needing protein? In your cycling nutrition in terms of hours, would you need it in a, in a, in a 15 hour day or does it not come into play until you're 24 hours? [00:28:34] - ():  Stefan Barth: That's a difficult question and I'm not sure if there's like scientific proof for when it gets beneficial. But I would always already included. If you go beyond those recommended durations for cycling, because like, if your ride is longer than five, six hours, this is already almost a little bit too long to build up endurance. **** - (): And if you stretch these, these timeframes, I think it's beneficial to add up some, some proteins as well. And definitely if you go beyond. beyond those 15 hours. And it's individual, you will probably notice it. For example, when I eat too, or when I limit myself to two carbs during a right, at some point, I will get a headache, I need some fats or some protein. **** - (): Otherwise, my body tells me, okay, this is this is just too restricted to carbohydrates. So if you notice something like this. it can be the solution to eat something with fats and proteins. And then there's also, especially with proteins, a huge difference between male and female athletes, because there's, yeah, like males are way more or it's It's, they are way more dependent on carbohydrates, on carbs during, during activity. **** - (): And female athletes, they are more dependent on carbs after the activity for recovery purposes. So female athletes, they also need a little bit more protein already during their [00:30:14] - ():  Craig Dalton: rides. And then on to the next subject of positioning, interesting that you highlight that as a key area of consideration. Can you talk through sort of some of the differences one might want to consider in their position as they go longer and longer in [00:30:29] - ():  Stefan Barth: duration? **** - (): Yes, because the longer the duration gets, the more efficient you need to be. Because if you can save only 10 Watts or every day for a writing time of maybe 16 hours each day you really save a lot and you really gain a lot of speed. And at the same time, you reduce your energy expenditure and energy expenditure is like one of the. **** - (): Key limiters in ultra cycling because it's simply it's, it's really, really difficult to get in enough energy for what you are burning. And so if you can. reach the same speed with less energy expenditure, this already is a huge, huge benefit. And so it's a good thing to have an aggressive position on your bike, actually in ultra cycling and not being too focused on comfort, because this is something many beginners Doing because bike fitters also are promoting this. **** - (): If you are going for longer rides, try to get your position on the bike, more comfortable. And my approach is a little bit different. Because I think you can you can have an aggressive position on your bike, which is at the same time, comfortable if you are putting the energy or the. Uh, time into your own flexibility, mobility and strength training, because most of the time the limiter and not the bike. **** - (): And so this is what I call efficiency in the book. Like the, the position on your bike is, is detrimental for your efficiency and you can gain a lot of efficiency by optimizing your. Own your own, uh, flexibility, mobility, and strength. [00:32:22] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. I know you, you go into sort of great technical detail on how to improve your strength and flexibility and mobility. **** - (): And I would agree that those are critical elements for any cyclist, whether you're trying to get a more aggressive position or not, I can only speak to my own limitations, which are definitely hindered by the lack of mobility. And I spend a lot of energy these days, trying to increase my mobility to. **** - (): Have that all day long comfort because I, I don't currently have that right now in my Cycling. You know, as I go longer and longer, eventually my lower back's gonna start to hurt and it becomes quite a limiting factor in my own personal case. [00:33:01] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, and I think cycling is like a limiting sports or a limiting type of sports because we have, we don't have a lot of different movements. **** - (): We only have one type of movement because the, the bike completely determines how your body moves. And so the body is limited to, to there's no rotational movement. There's no sideways movement. There's nothing more dimensional. This is only happening in one in one plane. And that triggers a lot of adaptations in our body that are not that good. **** - (): And in combination with a lot of jobs where we are sitting like eight hours in front of a desk. And then we go home and then we sit two hours on the roller or on the bike and actually we are only sitting. So there is a reason why cyclists chose a sports where you are sitting because we don't like to move too much. **** - (): So [00:34:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: is there any, is there any sort of silver bullet in terms of Mobility exercises that are your favorite go tos. [00:34:08] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yes, definitely. Because like the, the disadvantage of the bike giving you or limiting your, your mobility and your, your range of motion during, during riding is also kind of an advantage, at least from my coaching perspective, because you can be pretty sure that almost every cyclist has the same problems. **** - (): Because we all have exactly the same movement. If you compare this to other sports, like, like football or ice hockey or something like this, like there's a lot of potential. injuries and sources of injuries and because every athlete is moving in a different different way but cyclists they are all moving in the same way so we are having the same trouble and one of those troubles is that we are losing the flexibility in our posterior chain so like the the pedal stroke is highly dependent on your quads So this is where the power comes from. **** - (): So you get really, really strong, strong quads and your body, uh, needs to compensate this because the quads, they are, they are pulling at your, at your hips and at your pelvis. So you need the same amount of force at the back of, of your body at the posterior chain. And since we don't have strong backs of the legs, because this is just pulling up the pedal again, and this is like the recovery phase of the pedal stroke what your body does is it tightens the hamstrings. **** - (): Because tight is like the compromise you, if you, if you don't have, muscles, you get tight muscles just to have like this counterbalance to the very strong quads. So it's always the first part of a mobility flexibility training for cyclists is always. Gaining more flexibility in the, in the hamstrings, in the backs of the legs and afterwards strengthening these body parts that you have a counterbalance to, to the quads. **** - (): Interesting. [00:36:15] - ():  Craig Dalton: That's helpful. The final area you touched on, and I'm going to add an additional component to it. You, you talking about training and you were talking about how simple power to weight ratio, which may be the sort of the predominant metric in road cycling, Is not necessarily going to make or break your success as a ultra endurance cyclist. **** - (): So if you could talk a little bit about that, and then I would add on just a question around mindset. [00:36:45] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yes. So, I think a long distance cycling, it's more important to, to increase the capability to cycle at, or just a little bit below your threshold. So if you, if you started with. Maybe you can ride four hours at 50 percent of your threshold, then it would be a very, very good or a huge benefit. If you increase this, this, uh, capability to 60 or 65 percent of your threshold and your threshold can actually stay the same the whole season. **** - (): It does not necessarily need to, to go up all the time, but it's, it's very important that you, that you can sustain, uh, huge amounts of time. Near your threshold or that you that you can gain. Yeah, that you can push up those, those percentages. So this is what I tried to with my coaches most of the time in training to, to increase their ability to, to get to those 60 or 70 percent in a, in a 24 hour race. [00:37:50] - ():  Craig Dalton: And what kind of, uh, training efforts help to that end? [00:37:57] - ():  Stefan Barth: It's a lot of steady state writing. So a lot of writing a little bit below your threshold. But doing this for, for longer periods of time, for example, if you are looking in the typical, uh, training plans generated by Strava or by Swift, you will see a lot of, a lot of efforts, a lot of intervals that are lasting only a couple of minutes. **** - (): And I also, I'm a big fan of having those long intervals of training. 20 minutes sometimes, or even 25 minutes almost at your threshold. And that's a very good way to get better at, at riding near your threshold. Because your body gets very, very good at. Eliminating the lactate from your blood while pushing hard. **** - (): So you, you reduce the, the level of lactate that is building up in the, in the intervals. [00:38:54] - ():  Craig Dalton: Gotcha. So if you were out on a, on a training day for one of your athletes, would it be something like, you know, two or three 20 minute intervals at 65 percent of threshold with 10 minute break in between something like that? **** - (): Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yes, [00:39:10] - ():  Stefan Barth: but way more than 65 percent of threshold. It's more like 90 percent of threshold for 20 minutes then. Okay. So it's like, but it's a slow buildup. If you start with this kind of training and you are going maybe with eight minutes in each interval and do this three or four times, then you are, this is a good start. **** - (): And if you do this a couple of weeks. At some point this will, it will make, it will make, uh, like you put a, put, put a switch on and it will be, you will be able to go for 20 or 30 minute intervals. Yeah. [00:39:43] - ():  Craig Dalton: As you're thinking about for your athletes, these longer events and selfishly, I'm thinking about my own 200 mile or 360 kilometer aspirations this year, obviously in a lot of the training plans you might see, you might have a six hour training ride or an eight hour training ride. **** - (): These events are going to last longer than that. You know, it might be a 15 hour day for me and certainly for a 24 hour, four day event, you're talking about thousands of kilometers. How do you in training kind of build up to that capacity to continue on for these distances? [00:40:21] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, you need to stretch the traditional cycling distances from time to time. **** - (): Because I like to I or I call this challenges. Because you you need to know how your body reacts to those long rides. They are not very efficient in building up endurance. Like I said earlier, there's like Five to six hours. If you are already a very good cyclist, maybe you even benefit from a seven hour endurance ride, but everything that is longer than that, just yeah, just you need more recovery time afterwards, but you don't get the physical adaptation or not more physical adaptation than from a four or five hour ride. **** - (): But in ultra cycling, we're also in what you are doing on the gravel bike, you need. Sometimes a ride that lasts 10 or 12 hours, just so that you know, okay, how will I feel when I'm really exhausted and how will I cope with nutrition? Will I be able to eat at the end? Because I think that's something probably, you know, it from your triathlon time eating gets difficult the longer you are, you're active. **** - (): So you really need to know. Okay, does the food that I can stomach after five hours, can I still stomach it after 10 hours? And how, how does my butt hurt after 10 hours? Because this will hurt different than after five hours. And it's good to know how this feels and how you can cope with it. And then you can, you can think about a strategy. **** - (): How you will, how you will tackle this problems during unbound. So yes, I incorporate rights that are longer than 10 hours from time to time, but limited. Not, it's not, it's no good if you do this every weekend. [00:42:14] - ():  Craig Dalton: A couple questions that came up after your last comment, Stefan, around training. So I remember from marathon training, like we'd only run 22 miles and we'd never run that full distance thinking you'll be able to get there on race day. **** - (): The second thing for my ultra marathon training was we would often do a long day on Saturday and then follow it up by a medium day on Sunday. And my understanding of that philosophy was, Hey, we can't beat you guys up and we can't have you running 35 mile days. Quite regularly, but we can do a 22 mile day on Saturday and a 15 mile day on Sunday to try to kind of make the body feel like it's done. **** - (): This long event. Does any of that track with the type of training that makes sense for ultra ultra cycling? [00:43:03] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah. [00:43:04] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the final thing I want to touch on it. I mentioned it a bit earlier. It was just Sort of mindset. And I thought about this a lot as we were talking about sleeping and waking up from a three hour sleep, having to get your gear ready and get going again. I could just see in myself struggling to kind of. **** - (): Put, put pedal in front of pedal after, you know, just sleeping for three hours. So can you talk about the importance of mindset and maybe if there are any tips and tricks that one can learn to keep, keep pedaling forward? [00:43:40] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yes, definitely. Because you, you need to find like a sweet spot between recovery. And exhaustion during training. So, I also like to do those back to back sessions. For example, also with those long interval sessions we spoke of earlier, that I am doing, like, maybe on Friday, some really long and hard intervals, followed by a long ride on Saturday, followed by a short ride on Sunday, to build up this exhaustion over the weekend. **** - (): But still without compromising your recovery completely. So yeah, that's, that's a good way for, for those working athletes. [00:44:27] - ():  Craig Dalton: Interesting. I mean, it sounds like with all this, you know, preparation and doing the work leading up to your event is key. It's probably a trite thing to say, but I think that work for ultra cycling clearly is a lot longer than it is for shorter events. **** - (): Because I do think you need to prepare yourself mentally for All the intricacies around your sleep system and getting up and preparing the different types of nutritional needs, as you've, you've outlined and the, just a different mindset you need to go going into these events. [00:45:01] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yes, there's, there's a couple of, of little hacks that I, I like to include or that I included in the book. **** - (): Because when it comes to mindset. I have a little bit a different opinion than a lot of people out there, I think, because from my point of view, the mindset is a little bit overestimated when it comes to ultra cycling or some ultra adventures, whatever you call it. Because in the general public, it always comes down too much to the mindset. **** - (): And from my point of view, your base or your Your fundamentals are always a good physical condition and that's what you really need to finish those events. And of course you can finish an ultra cycling event or a bikepacking event just by mindset and by iron willpower. But this will mean that you will do sacrifices and maybe even sacrifice your health in. **** - (): in some situations. And I don't like that too much about this sports. And I don't like that in the general public people focus so much on this. So from my point of view, it's always more important to build up your physical capacity. And then mindset is important, of course, because like you said, you go out there and you will. **** - (): Have uncomfortable situations but then it's more, uh, willpower what you need. You need to like, you need small life hacks that will, that will keep you going. And I like to, to dig a little bit into how our brain works in these parts, because our brain is like still the same brain that we had thousands of years ago. **** - (): And it's divided into parts that are. focused on emotional fee or on emotions, on feelings. And you have parts in your brain that are focused on the rational thinking. There was a couple of tricks to better get those rational thinking parts in your brain working. And this will help you a lot in ultra cycling events because yeah, you will trigger a lot of those, those those feelings that are very ancient in, in humans and your brain will correspond. **** - (): With reactions that are also very ancient and those are oftentimes not the best, the best, uh, reactions. So it's important to, to keep rational and to keep your thinking going. So one life hack, for example, is very, very easy. And that's the, the stop button. You can visualize a stop button. Uh, once you notice that your thoughts are dysfunctional and this stop button or the sign like on the road sides on the highways, I'm not sure how they are looking in the US, but here in Europe, it's like a big red sign where in white there's written stop on it and just by visualizing this sign, which is a very, very easy picture to visualize. **** - (): You can, you can stop those emotional parts in your brain from taking over completely. And you gain a few seconds. And this is oftentimes enough to start rational thinking. And once you start rational thinking, you will notice that you, you are way better, you are better able to keep your willpower because you keep yourself in control. **** - (): Yeah. And it's, it's a difference between motivation and willpower. So like motivation is the thing that, uh, gets you going in the preparation and which is probably the, the reason why you signed up for the event and which is the reason why you are willing to put in all those training hours and then during the event itself, you need to Willpower, that's the thing that will bring you to the finish line. [00:49:00] - ():  Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think Stefan, that's a good place to end it. I appreciate the time this evening calling in from Germany. Appreciate you taking the time and effort to document everything in this very thorough book on ultra cycling and bike packing. I think you did a great service to that community and the world. **** - (): We'll certainly put links to how to find the US version of the book in the show notes of this podcast. [00:49:25] - ():  Stefan Barth: Yeah, that's great. Thanks for your invitation, Craig. Cheers. [00:49:30] - ():  Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Stefan for joining the show. That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Stefan for joining the show. It's so fascinating for me to think about these ultra cycling events and the differences it would require in order to be successful there. **** - (): If you're interested and able to support the show. Ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Or if you want to contribute financially, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

 

In today's episode, we interview Tony Karklins, the owner of Time Bicycles. We discuss Tony's journey in the bike industry, from working in a bike shop to becoming a distributor and eventually acquiring Time Bicycles. Tony shares insights into the evolution of the bike industry, particularly the impact of carbon fiber technology. He also talks about the acquisition of Time Bicycles and the company's focus on manufacturing and innovation. The conversation then shifts to the new gravel models introduced by Time Bicycles for 2024 and the unique features that set them apart. Tony explains the importance of staying true to the Time brand while catering to the evolving needs of the market. He also discusses the future plans for Time Bicycles, including expanding manufacturing in the United States.

Time Bicycles

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

About the Guest:

Tony Karklins is the owner of Time Bicycles, a storied brand in the cycling industry. With over 40 years of experience in the bike industry, Tony has a deep understanding of the market and has played a significant role in the growth and development of various bike brands. He started his career in a neighborhood bike shop in the early 1980s and went on to become a bike shop owner. Tony then ventured into distribution and agent deals with European bike brands before joining Orbea as the managing director of the Americas. After his time with Orbea, Tony acquired the Guru Bicycle Factory and later acquired Time Bicycles from the Rossignol group. He is now focused on expanding Time Bicycles and bringing manufacturing back to the United States.

Key Takeaways:

• Tony Karklins has over 40 years of experience in the bike industry and has played a significant role in the growth and development of various bike brands.
• Time Bicycles is a storied brand in the cycling industry, known for its high-performance carbon fiber bikes.
• The acquisition of Time Bicycles by Tony Karklins was driven by the desire to acquire the company's manufacturing capabilities and continue the legacy of the brand.
• Time Bicycles is focused on innovation and manufacturing, with a particular emphasis on resin transfer molding technology.
• The introduction of new gravel models for 2024 reflects Time Bicycles' commitment to meeting the evolving needs of the market while staying true to the brand's identity

Transcript:

[TRANSCRIPT]

**** - (): time_bicycles _ jan 19, 2024 001_riverside

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Tony, welcome to the show.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting me. Uh,

**** - (): Craig Dalton: as, as a fan of the sport and someone who's been around the sport from my bike shop days in college till now, I'm excited to talk about Time Bicycles. It's such a storied brand in the industry. And having spoken to you a little bit offline, your journey to get there, I think is going to be fascinating for the listener to learn about.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And ultimately we want to talk about the new gravel models you've got for 2024. Sounds great. Where do you want to start? Let's start off just by a little bit of your background. Where are you located and how'd you get into the sport of cycling and what led to you working in the bike industry? All

**** - (): Tony Karklins: right.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: I, uh, I live in Little Rock, Arkansas. You know, Arkansas is the new hotbed of cycling globally now. So, uh, I've been in the bike industry here for about 40 years. I started to work in the neighborhood bike shop in the early eighties. Became a bike shop owner in the mid 80s, and I ran 2 retail stores here until 99, 2000.

[00:01:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It's almost made it 20 years in bike retail here, and I decided that I wanted to stay in the bike industry, but I was kind of done with retail. I'd taken my turn there, and so I started traveling to the European trade shows. Looking for bike brands that were established in Europe that maybe needed help in the United States.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and did a few small distribution and agent deals with some, you know, really neat, small artists and Italian brands and kind of 1 deal led to the next. And then, uh, late 99 or early 2000. I was introduced to this brand that I had never heard of. And no 1 in America had at that time was called. And it was a tiny little, uh, BASC company that was moving out of kind of mass production bikes, and they wanted to get into high performance, and they wanted to get their brand on the Tour de France, and they wanted to see if they could produce, you know, a leading global brand, and started as a distributor for them for a couple of years.

[00:02:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It went really well, uh, and then we built it into a joint venture, and I ran that joint venture as the managing director of the Americas until 2014. So, uh, yeah. And we built Orbea in that time to, you know, leading European brand selling in the United States and a true global player. And it was a really interesting time in the bike industry because I started in it right before the carbon fiber boom happened.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: When I went to work for Orbea, premium bikes were made out of really lightweight steel. Uh, or, uh, even and we advance in a really lightweight aluminum, like Columbus Starship and some of the really cool 2 pound aluminum frames and they were light and they were fast, but they wrote like crap because they were so stiff.

[00:03:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Right? Yeah, I mean, carbon fiber comes into the forks and all of a sudden it made the aluminum bikes ride a lot better. And so, uh, watch, watch carbon fiber hit the bike industry, and it really took the industry by storm in around 2003, 2004. There was this moment where all the best bikes in the Tour de France were aluminum or titanium.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And within 12 months, it all went carbon fiber. And really changed the bike industry a lot because the bike industry and the bike brands, all this history brands that you know of, they were born as metal shops, right? They can cut and weld and bend, but when carbon hit, everybody was like. What is this stuff?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Where do I get it and how do I do it fast? And so I lived in this moment where I saw all that bike production all through the United States and Europe come down in the premium categories and get shipped to Asia because they could make carbon fiber. Yeah.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: I was going to ask you from an Orbea perspective, like how did they solve that problem?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: They knew they had to get into carbon fiber, the same

**** - (): Tony Karklins: thing at the same time. You know, Orbea was Orbea is they take fast, smart decisions quick. So we were right there at the very start of carbon fiber. I remember there was this moment in America where we had a warehouse full of carbon fiber before it was really.

[00:04:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Hot, like a couple of months before it was hot and then Cannondale went into bankruptcy and then something happened at light speed, but spike the cost of titanium raw material. And then like a month of fearing. I would never be able to sell this inventory for a bicycling magazine being sold out for 2 years.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: That was some of the magic that happened during that time. A lot of, uh, when carbon hit, it just, it hit hard and it changed the industry and it changed where and how bikes were made. Um, and it was a, it was a boom moment for us at Orbea, for sure. We, we, we, we went through the roof, you know, because we were there.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: One of the very first real product and real availability. Yeah. So I had a great run with, with Orbea. Um, they acquired the rest of the company from us in 2014. And then I decided that, um, I wanted to get into manufacturing because I noticed at that moment in 2014, 15 and 16, that everybody was sort of cooking in the same kitchen, you know?

[00:05:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It was, everything started to look alike again, and there was just different colors and graphics and marketing campaigns. So I said, okay, if I'm gonna stay in the bike industry, I wanna get into manufacturing.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: That seems like a big leap, right? So you a big

**** - (): Tony Karklins: leap. But you know, I, I, I, I'd been in the industry a long time, been in a lot of the factories.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, I saw it, you know? Yeah. I'm not an engineer. Um, now I almost am. But um, at that point, I just, I knew that, I knew that there was very little chance of success if you just went to Asia and did the same thing again. Yeah, I've seen too many people try to start their own brand, um, based on just desire of having a brand and no real tech or no real, you know, capabilities and, and they all kind of petered out the same way.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And did you see the opportunity being, Hey, if I stand up a manufacturing facility, I've got enough connection in the industry that some brand may want to come to me for manufacturing. I'm thinking back to like. Frank the welder shop and you'd have,

**** - (): Tony Karklins: you know, interested in OEM business because you know, you, you do all the work and you get none of the room.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah.

[00:06:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Can't explain to anybody what you do for a living because you can't point to anything.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. I was more interested in. Okay. I think the way that this can really work is if you take it from raw material all the way through to the sand. Right. Okay. Do you want all of that? Because, you know, when you have a bike made in Asia, you have it made in a carbon fiber factory and then they send it to a paint factory and then they send it to an assembly factory and then they put it into a box and they ship it into the United States.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: So you pay duties and freight and tariff and all that stuff. And then it's sold to a distributor and then it's sold to a retailer and then it's sold to the consumer. And, you know, you have this, You know, no one has any real piece of the pie, you know, the only people making the money here are the shipping companies and the government, you know, let's break that.

[00:07:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Let's see if we can take it from raw material all the way, you know, through selling it to a dealer. Okay. And so, uh, after my time with Orbea, I went to work with a group in California that was attempting to do this, uh, with golf technology, a lot of golf production in the San Diego area. And I learned, you know, during that year that.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Very difficult to do manufacturing in Southern California. It was, it was a great, great learning moment for it. Um, and so did not work there, but after I departed, I was able to acquire the Guru Bicycle Factory. In Montreal. Gotcha. Okay. We located in Arkansas, got some government grants and brought in some investors for this.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And we, uh, the project there, we created this company called HIE Villa, which was going to be, you know, mass production of prepreg carbon fiber bicycles, you know, made the same way that the best bike brands were making them in Asia, but making them here.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And when you, did you not acquire the Guru brand, you just acquired the means of manufacturing at that point?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: I just acquired the manufacturing assets. Yeah. And was that just, uh, tooling, machinery, et cetera, or were you getting

[00:08:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Messiness, cutting tables, it was everything you needed to do. Gotcha. I mean, everything, you know, and so it gave us a great, it was a great start. Uh, it was a beautiful project. We launched, you know, six Cycleworks brand, and that hit hard.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, it resonated just perfectly at that moment because it truly made an America product. Um, we, we did it right. We did it well, um, beautiful project and that company got acquired by the Walton family. In one of their groups, uh, that owns, uh, the Rafa

**** - (): Craig Dalton: cycling brand and then was that acquiring the brand and the manufacturing

**** - (): Tony Karklins: facility?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: They took it all and they did that a little rock and they put it in Northwest Arkansas. And now it's part of the, uh, the cycling empire that they're building. Sure. And so I stayed here in Little Rock after that and looking for my next opportunity. And during the early stages of the pandemic, I learned that the Rossignol group who had recently acquired time was looking for a new owner for it.

[00:09:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And I'm like, wow, I really want that because I want, I want their factory. Cause I knew that they had the oldest and the largest scale carbon fiber bike

**** - (): Craig Dalton: factory in Europe. Can we, can we pause for a second, Tony, and just explain the history very briefly of the time brand? Cause it's not lost on me, like how important that had been over the last 30 years, but I'd just love to hear your words and understanding of like how time fit into the bike industry.

[00:10:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So time, uh, was established in France in 1987 and Roland Catan was the founder of it. And Roland Catan married a woman whose father was the inventor of the modern ski bike. And he owned a company called Look. Yep. Sure. And Look had just introduced a bicycle pedal that was clipless. And Roland was around this and he was kind of part of the company.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And I guess at some point there was some family dispute that happened, because Roland believed that a clip in bicycle pedal needed to have some kind of rotation. Because if you were locked into one place, You would have ankle, knee, some kind of problems. And so, I guess the father in law didn't like that.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And Roland left look, went across the street and opened time. Amazing. With a clipless pedal that had rotation.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: This is filling in so many gaps for me. As I mentioned offline, I had a friend who was like a die hard time pedal fan. And like the ski binding technology, I'm now all visualizing it in my head.

[00:11:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And so I don't know how, I don't know how Roland's wife made this all work with the family. They split and they made it together. Um, and you know, Time, you know, was a very fast moving brand globally the second he did it. It was styled perfectly. Everybody believed in the rotation. They were off to the races.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, then somewhere in the late eighties to maybe 92, 93, Roland became friends with some of the people that had started TVT carbon fiber and TVT was, you know, uh, French company. That had done some of the very first, you know, carbon tube, aluminum lug bikes, they were briefly in the tour, but the technology wasn't really stable enough yet to really have true tour riders on it.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: But you, I think you saw maybe some of the Greg Lamont years, he might be on a special carbon fiber bike with some sponsors name on it. That was a TVT thing. So the time people got involved with him. Um, and they opened up a project to make a carbon fiber fork because they saw the problem in the bike industry of all these lightweight aluminum bikes using steel forks, or sometimes even aluminum forks, which were super jarring.

[00:12:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. And they believed that they could, they could make a better riding aluminum bike by doing a carbon fork. So Mario Cipollini, Marco Pantani, anybody of who's who in that, you know, in that era, whatever bike brand they were riding, it had a Time fork on it, and from what I've been told, uh, they were making about 100, 000 carbon fiber forks here.

[00:13:00] - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, they, they were, they were the player there. Then, of course, Look got into the fork business as well. Those 2 really kind of hit it, you know. So time then moved into bicycle manufacturing in the late 90s. They want to do a full carbon fiber bike. Um, and then in the early 2000s, they signed with this little team called Quickstep and we had writers like Tom Boonen and Paolo Bettini, uh, you know, and they won the Olympics and they won the world championships and they won Paris Roubaix and they were just, they were killing it in 2004, five and six, I mean, they were, they were the, you know, pinnacle of technology really being made in Europe when everybody else had just left for China, they were killing it.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and then. I guess from what I've been told, the Pro Tour got really expensive when the big American brands came in. You know, when you saw Specialized come in and take over Quickstep, and Cannondale was in there first, I think, Giant got in there, uh, Trek obviously got in there, and so Time became a brand that, you know, truly couldn't afford the Tour de France anymore.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so, uh, they Kept developing products, they believed in their resin transfer molding technology. They believe in European manufacturing, but, you know, they started to kind of hit harder times, maybe in 2012, 13, 14, and then Roland passed away on a bike ride. In 2000, late 2015, early 2016. Oh, man.

[00:14:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And did they ever, did they ever diversify into mountain bike products or did they always stay focused on the road sport?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: No,

**** - (): Tony Karklins: there's, you know, we, we have all the historical stuff and, you know, they did a couple little things and they made their own wheels for one model, but they didn't really ever get in the wheel business. I've got a few time carbon fiber handlebars. I don't believe that a real mountain bike frame was ever truly produced by them, but he was pretty true to the cause.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, he, he was a road cyclist. He was a drop bar cyclist. He, um, he, he, he protected his brand really well. Yeah. Yeah. He, he didn't, he didn't go with, you know, the, the, the trend of the week, like some of the bike companies do.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And then did the Rossignol group, uh, purchase it after his passing

**** - (): Tony Karklins: then? They purchased it, you know, so he passed away.

[00:15:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Company was in shambles because he was the race car driver of the company. Right. Yeah. And, and so big problems there, but Rossignol stepped in. Um, they. They did an acquisition of everything, they reinvested in the company, um, they built out both the France factory and the sub factory that's in Slovakia.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and they were really building it for big growth. And I, I believe their plan was to, to put, um, they, they bought a few other bike brands as well and to inject those brands into their ski dealerships for summer business in Europe. I think it was their master plan.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: The plan that many a bike shop owner, many a bike brand has theorized over the years will work perfectly.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: It makes sense. But at the end of the day, you know, a consumer purchasing a 10, 000 bike doesn't want to buy from the ski shop. Yeah. I know. Yeah, nothing against the ski shops, but he wants, he wants to buy it from a passionate, you know, cycling store. So that didn't work so well. And then the pandemic hit, and when the pandemic hit, that's when we were told, Hey, good time.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Rosalind was looking for a new owner from time. And I

[00:16:00] - (): Craig Dalton: interrupted you right when you were saying what really attracted you to the opportunity was the fact that there was a factory involved.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And that's how we got it from Roil because we were the people that wanted the factory. I think there were a lot of people that wanted the time brand, right?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Sure. Because there's a playbook. You take a great brand like that, a Halo European brand, you go to Asia, you build a new bike line, boom, you're done. And Ros, I don't think, wanted that to happen. You know, it's proud French brand. There are a lot of people working in factories. Um, they wanted, they wanted somebody to come in and take over the factory.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: I had just come through this project at Allied and lived in a prepreg factory. So I'm like, I want that factory, you know? Yeah.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And you were mentioning offline, some of the nuances in the approach prepreg versus another way of manufacturing that attracted you to the

**** - (): Tony Karklins: time process. I knew what their tech was, but I had never been in their building previously.

[00:17:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And, and I knew the quality that was coming out of that. And so when, when we were able to acquire that, you know, at the same time, SRAM bought the pedal and shoe business. So we actually broke time. Into two pieces. Okay. So that was a perfect fit for SRAM to take that and then we didn't have to be in the pedal business.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Did

**** - (): Craig Dalton: that just sort of happen to work out timing wise that I imagine they wanted to sell the whole thing in one fell swoop.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: I think they wanted to sell the whole thing in one fell swoop, but it's hard to do that because those two businesses are totally different, totally different factory, totally different customers, totally different rules.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so when SRAM stepped in with interest in that, it was perfect. And that's when it all kind of came together. And, uh, you know, it was a strange time because when we bought it in the pandemic, we couldn't even go to the factory for a visit. Because this is what Americans travel into Europe. We were on lockdown.

[00:18:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So a lot of faith in there. And luckily we got a good investment group behind this that also believed in, in us, in the vision of what we wanted to do with time. Uh, and we pulled it off. So we bought it because we wanted that factory. We wanted that technology. You know, what, what Roland spent, you know, 25 years developing in that factory is resin transfer molding and lost wax cores.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And that is the way that aerospace and automotive carbon fiber products are made. You know, the bike industry is prepreg. Prepreg is a very interesting way to make products. And there's some neat things you can do with prepreg. But automotive and aerospace would never use prepreg. Because resin transfer molding gives you complete control of the structure.

[00:19:00] - (): Tony Karklins: You end up with a, with a structure that has zero voids in it. It's cosmetically perfect. And that you can blend whatever you want to into the carbon fiber sleeves because they're not impregnated. And so, this one factory that they had built in Slovakia initially as a fork factory had built its way up to being the largest carbon fiber bike factory in Europe.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And with the technology that Was above and beyond what anybody else in the world was doing. When

**** - (): Craig Dalton: you talk about that, and I'm sure it's difficult to express it in layman's terms, but when you think about the different design opportunities and possibilities with prepreg versus this type of carbon manufacturing, what type of opportunities for performance, as it translates to riders, does this technology lend itself to?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, the biggest difference in resin transfer molding, Is it's not, it's not bladder mold. There's no internal pressure there that is squeezing all those layers of carbon fiber into one structure. So, in resin transfer molding, we start with the wax core. It is, you know, an exact interior core to the structure.

[00:20:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And then we wrap the carbon fiber sleeves over those doors. We set them in the tools. When, and when we close the tool, you have steel surface on the outside, hard wax surface on the inside. So two hard surfaces, and then you inject the resin and the hardener through the tool at the same time under high pressure.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And when you do that, the resin fills 100 percent of all available space between the two hard surfaces. So you can't have any leaks. That's why airplane wings are resin transfer molded, because you can't have a void in an airplane wing. Because a

**** - (): Craig Dalton: void is a, is a weaker part of the part, if a

**** - (): Tony Karklins: void exists. A void is a bubble, it's a fold, it's a wrinkle, it's a drip.

[00:21:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It's, you know, because when you're dealing with prepreg, you have this hard tool on the outside. You have, A bladder on the inside, and then you have all these sticky layers, somebody's hand put together, kind of like, almost like paper mache in some ways, right? And each one of those is a sticky, challenging layer.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: These will go on just right, right? And then you put that into the tool, and you blast this pressure on the inside, and it just squeezes the heck out of everything. And that's the structure you're left with. But resin transfer molding, hard tool on the inside, hard on the outside, and a flow through of the resin that makes it a perfect structure.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so when you have that, you have a product that is a stronger and more durable product for sure. Less chance of anything happening to the structure for sure. Also cosmetically perfect. So now you can actually show fibers, which you don't see on carbon fiber bikes anymore, because prepreg structures are ugly.

[00:22:00] - (): Tony Karklins: So you have to paint them, make them look nice. But on this, it comes out perfect. And even the inside of the structure, the inside of our bikes is as cosmetically perfect as the outside because it can only be that. Yeah. And then in these braids, you know, a lot of these things have 244 different, you know, threads through we can.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: blend in any modulus that we want. We can mix in fibers like Dyneema. We can mix in Vectran fibers. We, we have unlimited recipe of what we could do for the actual sleeves

**** - (): Craig Dalton: themselves. And what, what are those additional elements? What are the benefits of those additional

**** - (): Tony Karklins: elements? Everybody's familiar with the different moduluses, right?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You can take out weight, you can add stiffness. You know, the one that we've had the most fun with the last two years is bringing Dyneema into it. Dyneema has got kind of a wonder material that really came out of the sailing industry. It's a polypropylene fiber that's lighter than carbon fiber, which you can't destroy.

[00:23:00] - (): Tony Karklins: So we can weave this into critical areas where there could be catastrophic failure. And this will keep that structure from ever breaking. And so we brought that in a lot on our 1st gravel bike. We introduced that indoor

**** - (): Craig Dalton: structure. Yeah, I was going to say that seems like a natural

**** - (): Tony Karklins: thing. We're using more and more and more with it.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And you can't use too much with it because if you use. Two, if your ratio of Dyneema to the carbon fiber is too high, the bike doesn't ride right. Dyneema doesn't have the riding characteristics of a high modulus carbon fiber. But when you put it in small doses in strategic places, you've made a stronger and safer problem.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. Now, I appreciate this detour into the tech because we were going to come back around to it in the gravel bike, but I think it sets the stage really nicely. So if we're going back chronologically. 2020, 2021, it seems like you've acquired the, the, the brand, the facility were models continuing to be pushed out at that point.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And then how, when did you sort of reintroduce what I imagine to be your new vision for time bicycles out there in the world?

[00:24:00] - (): Tony Karklins: You know, it, it played out differently than we thought because when we bought the company, our plan was we were going to take it to ground and we were going to redo everything and we were going to relaunch it perfectly and we bought it in that moment in the pandemic where we were all going to die, you know, there was this moment.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: It was doom and gloom. And then a couple of months later, everybody decided to go buy a bike. Yeah.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: We're not, we're not dead. So we might as well go ride a bike.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, we're not dead. So let's go buy a new bike. And so our plan was kind of spoiled because we were one of the only operational factories in Europe.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Everybody needed everything from us. And I'm like, no, we're going to be redoing all this stuff. They're like, no, we need bikes now. So we turned it on hard. You know, we turned that factory on harder than it had ever

**** - (): been

**** - (): Craig Dalton: turned on. And were you kicking out road bikes at that point,

**** - (): Tony Karklins: presumably? We were kicking out road bikes like crazy.

[00:25:00] - (): Tony Karklins: We were trying to get to gravel, but we had just tons and tons and tons of orders for road bikes because, you know, you couldn't get them. They were stuck in Asia. People were sold out. Yeah. You know, and you know, we're a factory that we make them every single day, you know? So the first 18 months of us owning this company, it was like we were trying to repair the plane mid flight.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, we were just going crazy. You know, we're trying to get to new. Because Rossignol didn't really push new because they were in the selling phase. Right. So you're not going to invest in products like that. And so we had slightly dated product and we needed as much of it as possible right now for sales while we're redeveloping.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: So just now, you know, in 2024, we're back to our plan of, of key new model introductions,

**** - (): Craig Dalton: you know. Yeah. You know, during that timeframe with everything running so fast, it sounds like you wouldn't have even had time to rethink market positioning the brand. It was more people love time. It's a storied brand as we've just talked about, and people are going to buy the product.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: The

[00:26:00] - (): Tony Karklins: second we bought it, man, the love just kind of flowed in through emails, you know, everybody's like, Oh God, thank God, you know, cycling people have the time brand, you know, and, and yeah, the love for the time brand is amazing. I can't tell you how many people have sent an email with a picture of their Time VRX, VXRS, Paolo Bettini edition to say, I own a hundred bikes and this is my all time favorite.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, people love it. I mean, Roland did a great job building a really beautiful, he really, he, he always. Did the right thing. Yeah. Always took the high road. You know, not a lot of people in the bike industry can really say that.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: For sure. You mentioned Roland's love of the sport of road cycling, and it doesn't sound like prior to you much, if any, emphasis was put on the gravel market.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: When you decided to move in, or correct me if I'm wrong, certainly.

[00:27:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Well, there were some weird things in there. Like one of the things, when we did the acquisition and we got the trademark, Roland owns the global trademark for all. Okay, we were looking at that. Oh, my God. What was he going to do with that?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, he saw something, you know, maybe he was maybe had a pedal plan for it. But, you know, he, you know, he was pretty deep in the Belgian site. Okay. And so he, he was, he was working on something for sure.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. You weren't handed any gravel models, so it took you, took you to what, 2022 to introduce the first, uh, ADHX?

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, we did. We introduced that, um, midway through 2022.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Now I'm curious, like obviously you had your imprints on that model with you alongside your designers. How did you envision the gravel market at that point? Times the, the time, the people who are appreciating the time brands vision for what a time gravel bike would look like.

[00:28:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Well, that was our first rule with the ADHX is we wanted to make a bike that would appeal to time. Right. We weren't going to go out and make some bike that had frays on forks everywhere and for camping on it. That's not time, right? You need to go buy a Surly if you're going to do that. We wanted to do an all road bike.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: For a time and we wanted to also make sure that it worked with all road drive trains. Because we want to be a multi surface road bike. Gotcha. We call it fast gravel. Um, and and we introduced that before a lot of these wide drive train 1 by systems really became legitimized and, you know, our requirement is let's get biggest tire possible in here.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: It will still take 52 chain ring. You know? Yeah. And we'll not have an obscenely long chainstay. So we'll ride like a road bike, but we'll allow you to do multi surface. Yeah.

[00:29:00] - (): Craig Dalton: I've had this conversation before where it's very interesting when you talk about constraints and what you're able to do. And as you're articulating the desire to have a 50 tooth chainring in there and ride a two by drivetrain and a road specific drivetrain, it's understandable where you end up spec wise.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I

**** - (): Tony Karklins: mean, so that, that's, those are the limitations we put on it. And so then we launched it into the market. You know, and at that moment, anything, anybody launched into the market was going to do well because the market was just consuming all by itself. But quickly, we learned that nobody wanted our ADHX with a one by drive train.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Everybody who was buying, because we made, we, we took an assumption that 50, 50, one by two by, you know, and it was 99 percent and 1 percent was the reality of after six months of this. So everybody, they were buying pure road groups and they were running. You know, 35, maybe 38 C tires.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting when you think about that 2022 timeframe, because I do think the, the consumer base had started to really.

[00:30:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Sort of pick a camp if you will. And they were picking either I want a fast gravel bike or I want something more on the adventure side. And there were distinct camps starting to emerge even back then.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, there were. And, uh, you know, so we got a lot of feedback maybe nine months after launch, but we can't get this 42 tire and everybody racing on unbound this year is running a 42.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And then, you know, we were also at that moment where the interior rim widths were changing like crazy. Yeah, so even if you were putting a 38 seat tire on there, but this new wheel coming out from head has a 26 internal measurement. It was measuring a 42, you know, so we ran into that fun, but everybody else ran into that fun at the same time.

[00:31:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So we decided that we would open the next project to do a wider. You know, tire version of the ADHX, um, because we thought that was truly where the market was moving to. And what we learned in all of that is it all just comes down to the drivetrain. And the second we launched the ADHX45 and we explained it was built for wide drivetrains and it was built for, you know, it won't take Ultegra, Dura Ace, Campagnolo drivetrains on there.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: That we had this boom of sales in our existing ADHX because all of a sudden people really understood. Yeah, this is this is as much of a multi surface bike as I can have and it'd be a road bike. This is really a pure gravel, right? And so for now, it's crystal clear. We didn't really expect that to happen.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: We assume the 45 was what everybody was going to want, but now it's crystallized for us where there are three for us. There's pure road. There is multi surface pass. Yeah. And there is. You know, I don't want to call it pure gravel, but wider tire

[00:32:00] - (): Craig Dalton: gravel. Yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting force and forcing function.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Cause I think a lot of consumers develop a love and appreciation for a particular brand. And then, so they're in the time family, they're in the time world, and then they're looking at your two models and they're asking themselves, what type of gravel rider am I? Where, where do I live? What type of terrain am I on?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And which one of these two models fits their riding style and ambitions.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: What I think we've learned is. It's more important around the drivetrain than it really is around three or four millimeter width change on the top. That's what the customer seems to really care about.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. So on the, on the, the ADHX45, will that still run a 2x?

[00:33:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, it'll run a 2x, but you have to use a wide version of it. Okay. Yeah. So you're using these, these gear ratios that true road cyclists Don't really, they still want their 52 ring on there, right? Yeah. And when you move into the a H 45, you gotta deal with all, all the new systems from Shram and the new ones from the G Rx system.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And it, it does, it does really seem to be that the 45 falls more to the MTB crowd and the A DHX falls more to the road cyclist. It just wants to do a little bit of ground. Yeah. As you and then, and then in Europe they use the A DHX. As the fat road tire. Okay.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And what do you, does it ride sort of as if it say you have road tires on their 32s or 35s?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Is it ride like an endurance road bike? Would you, would you suggest? That's

**** - (): Tony Karklins: where a lot of people have kind of put it. Yeah. You know, cause you can, you can build out, you know, with those Victoria 34 C tires and nice carbon wheels, you can have a, you know, 14 and a half pound 34 seat tire road bike. It's just super fun to ride.

[00:34:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Super fun to ride. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just out with a buddy I hadn't seen in a while. And so he was like hardcore roadie and saw him rolled up on some 38 Cs, nice carbon wheels. And he was like, man, this bike is, he's like, it's a revelation. He's like, I've never been happier road riding than I have been on these 38 Cs.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I love it. Super interesting. As you, you know, you had the the 80 HX out there in the market. Obviously, you were getting some feedback from riders that led to the tire and drive train decisions on the 45. Were there any other elements of the frame design that taking the opportunity to think? Hey, we're now getting 45s in there.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: People are going to take this on gnarlier terrain. Do we need to do anything different? Or was it really about upsizing and, you know, configuring the drive

**** - (): Tony Karklins: train? You know, when there were some people that were pushing us for adventure bikes and stuff, but it's just, we're, we're doing our best to stay true to time.

[00:35:00] - (): Tony Karklins: We're not an adventure bike company, we're a high performance carbon fiber bike company. We want to, we want to keep it that way. So I think, I think the 45, at least. What we see of today's gravel market is as far as we need to go, you know, because there are other things at the time brand needs to do. We know we have to get back into the aero road bike development and we have to get back into endurance road development.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: We've got other projects there. So I think that, you know, while we'll continue to evolve the ADA checks family, I think we sort of have our two models

**** - (): Craig Dalton: in there. Yeah. When you think about it, you mentioned sort of unbound. When you think about a competitive race bike, is there anything that The ADH X45 has that doesn't put it as a gravel race bike, other than the choice of drivetrain that you're, you have to

**** - (): Tony Karklins: make because it was, it was really built for that type of application.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, it a go fast. You know, wide tire ground. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a race bike. I mean, we, we, we did some really tight tolerances on there. The things we had to do to get the chain stays, you know, in the seat too. And just, just to the point where they'd be right on the edge of giving the proper amount of clearance.

[00:36:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And, and, and truly be a high performance ride. We, we couldn't have done it any tighter than we did. Yeah.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. And when you think about the ideal rider for these types of bikes, um, are you, you know, are the head tubes taller or are they, or are they still sort of real Euro race style

**** - (): Tony Karklins: geometry? We are upper middle there on this particular family when we, well, when we bought time, there was no integrated front ends at all.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: So we had to, the first project we did was to do, to bring integration in when we did that to all of our existing product line, we increased that head to height just a bit more for the, for the mature American market.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: And when, with integration, you're talking about

**** - (): Tony Karklins: specialized Roubaix, we didn't, we didn't go there, but we brought it to a point because I, I hate premium bikes with three or four spacers in there.

[00:37:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Or, or an upstem. Yeah. So we built it, you know, we engineered it to sell and be looked at.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. And with that integration, you're referring to putting the cables inside the bar and through the headset and all that stuff. We got a moment to

**** - (): Tony Karklins: tweak all the hit tube heights when we did that. Yeah. And so we, we, we took, we took benefit.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: We cleaned that. Got it. Because, you know, traditionally time Short head to bike. I mean, it was the, a lot of the design was led by the racers who all want these head tubes that are this tall. Yeah. You know, nobody who's actually buying a bike and ever ride, you know,

**** - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. Um, what, what's sort of next for time and gravel this year?

**** - (): Craig Dalton: I imagine, you know, there's still a lot of people who haven't gotten in front of a time. Gravel bike. How do people find

**** - (): Tony Karklins: them for time right now is, um, our expansion into manufacturing in the United States. Okay. That's our next thing. So we announced, uh, middle of last year that we acquired a facility in South Carolina and it's in Spartanburg County.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Was it outside the bike industry? Something doing carbon fiber in another field?

[00:38:00] - (): Tony Karklins: No. Um, but it is inside the bubble that BMW built in North America and BM W's carbon fiber technology is exactly the same as times. Got it. So it's resin transfer molding. So in this one little region of South Carolina, they have the entire global supply chain specific to exactly what time does.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Amazing. So we acquired a factory there in this little town called Landrum. It's 140, 000 square foot facility on 30 acres, right at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Really cool area. Uh, about, about 30, 45 minutes from Nashville, North Carolina. And we are. Um, throughout 2024, moving process by process over, so we'll have a second factory here to support the United States.

[00:39:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And at the same time, as we're installing our processes into that factory, we're getting a lot of assistance from, um, the state of South Carolina and the University of Clemson, and a lot of the, um, automotive, Development tools that were put into place inside of BMW. They do things with resin transfer molding that were light years beyond what Roland ever thought about when he was building his factories in France and Slovakia.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so we've been for the last six months doing proof of concept manufacturing there about, um, high pressure resin transfer molding. We're similar technology to what we do in our factories now. But under three to five times pressure, and that has the potential to really, uh, has the potential to revolutionize bicycle manufacturing, but certainly advance our product to a point where beyond what we ever thought possible.

[00:40:00] - (): Tony Karklins: When you, when you are able to do resin transfer molding at 35, 45, 50 bar, that is incredibly high pressure. It's going to make a A structure that is thinner, lighter, and stronger, and also more beautiful than anybody's ever been able to pull out of a carbon fiber tool. So we are fully focused on that development and deploying that technology in our new South Carolina factory.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: By the end of

**** - (): Craig Dalton: this year, that's so exciting to bring back more manufacturing in the United States. And as we heard,

**** - (): Tony Karklins: that's the real thing, you know, because the automobile industry invested a lot in resin transfer from BMW, McLaren, Aston Martin, Lexus. Audi, I mean, resin transfer molding used in all those brands significantly.

[00:41:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Polestar, Volvo. And to take benefit of what they've done there and apply it to bike under the Time brand name and being true to, you know, what Roland Katana actually wanted to build out of Time. That's, that's our special project that we're really excited about. I think that I'm a few months away from inviting people such as yourself into the kitchen over there so you can see firsthand what what's actually about that.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. Book me a date. Maybe in July. My sister just moved to Asheville. So I'm planning a trip over there at some point

**** - (): Tony Karklins: 3045. I

**** - (): Craig Dalton: love it. I love it. I love this journey. You've taken us on in this conversation. Love the time brand. The story very much lands with me. Just the sort of. Race perspective of the bicycles and the expansion of the ADHX to the ADX45 just to give riders kind of what they're looking for in terms of the versatility.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: In the time models. So, um, yeah, super appreciate it. And for customers looking to get in touch with the brand or get, get a foot over one of these, what's the best way for riders to get in front of a time bicycle? You know,

[00:42:00] - (): Tony Karklins: we, our website and the team that we have supporting all lines of communication through that social media.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: We're very easy. Okay. I mean, ping us ping us on Facebook, Instagram, through our website, we have a team here ready to help. And

**** - (): Craig Dalton: are you selling direct to consumer at this

**** - (): Tony Karklins: point? We sell every way possible. We sell direct to consumer and we've got around 150 retailers in the United States. Uh, we've got distributors in 18 countries around the world.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, so yeah, we're, we're pretty much available in all key markets.

**** - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Thanks again for the time, Tony.

**** - (): Tony Karklins: My pleasure.