Verse Talks

In our second conversation with Caroline Csuri, Leyla Fakhr and Jamie Gourlay explore her father’s working process, from developing his own tools to experimenting with randomness, colour and movement. Caroline shares memories of growing up around his computer graphics lab and reflects on their three decades of creative collaboration.

We also discuss the responsibilities of managing an artist’s estate: preserving digital works, respecting the artist’s intentions and bringing the work to a wider audience. Through stories about Charles’s experiments, friendships and ambitions, Caroline offers a personal perspective on an artist who helped shape computer art.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:53 Welcoming Caroline
02:20 Growing up around the computer graphics lab
05:16 Caroline’s own artistic background
07:54 Cranston/Csuri: art, research and commercial animation
10:02 Returning to the studio and developing his own tools
14:15 The ribbon tool and painting in three dimensions
18:02 Randomness, experimentation and selecting the final work
22:37 Finding recognition in the art world
29:47 NFTs, new audiences and Ordo
37:29 Managing the estate and respecting Charles’s intentions
41:11 Presenting digital art: screens and prints
47:24 Selecting the Ordo works
50:59 The challenges of a digital artist’s estate
57:05 Authenticity and digital preservation
01:02:10 Organising the archive
01:05:12 Releasing work after an artist’s death
01:18:45 Charles’s friendship with Roy Lichtenstein
01:23:29 Mentorship and keeping the legacy alive
01:29:09 Closing reflections 

Links and handles

Charles Csuri estate:
Website: charlescsuri.com
Instagram: @charlescsuri
X: @CharlesCsuri

Music credit

Leyla Fakhr and Jamie Gourlay sat down with with Oscar Murillo in his studio to discuss Frequencies - a project 13 years in the making that cuts to the heart of his practice 

Oscar reflects on his childhood in Colombia, moving to London at eleven, and how drawing became both a refuge and the foundation of his practice. He discusses finding his way into art, supporting his early experimentation through cleaning work, and navigating the relationship between creativity, institutions and the market.

Frequencies saw Oscar’s team place thousands of canvases on school desks around the world, and collected the drawings, marks and gestures made over time.

We explore how Frequencies connects to his paintings, how it comes alive through exhibitions, and his thoughts on recording the archive on Ethereum.

00:00 — Welcome to Oscar Murillo’s studio
01:35 — Childhood in Colombia and his family’s move to London
09:52 — Memories of home and the experience of displacement
14:04 — Drawing as a refuge
19:08 — Dyslexia, solitude and finding a creative language
33:57 — Frequencies at the heart of his practice
37:10 — Choosing art and the importance of a good teacher
42:44 — Studying at Westminster and discovering London’s art scene
51:26 — Cleaning work and sustaining an artistic practice
1:00:58 — The Royal College of Art and finding his own approach
1:05:05 — Early career, recognition and gallery relationships
1:31:09 — Navigating success and staying focused on experimentation
1:38:58 — The origins of Frequencies
1:46:10 — Bringing canvases into schools around the world
1:51:12 — Drawing, word paintings and the meaning of Frequencies
1:56:11 — Taking the archive into exhibitions
1:58:14 — Activating Frequencies at Castello di Rivoli
2:01:23 — Participation and mark-making at Tate
2:02:15 — Anonymity, participants and leaving outcomes open
2:06:35 — Why take Frequencies digital?
2:09:15 — Blockchain as a structure for distribution
2:13:39 — Shared ownership, networks and connection
2:16:01 — Art-world attitudes towards NFTs
2:19:35 — Disruptive Frequencies and the future of the archive

Frequencies: https://frequenciesproject.org/

Oscar Murillo Instagram: @lacachepli

David Zwirner website: davidzwirner.com

David Zwirner Instagram: @davidzwirner

Oscar’s artist page: Oscar Murillo at David Zwirner

In this episode of Verse Talks, Leyla Fakhr speaks with Caroline Csuri, artist, entrepreneur and daughter of pioneering computer artist Charles Csuri.

Caroline reflects on growing up around her father’s work, his beginnings as a painter and sculptor, his early experiments with computers in the 1960s, and the extraordinary community of artists, programmers and animators that surrounded him. The conversation traces Csuri’s practice across seven decades, from Hummingbird and Random War to his experiments with 3D animation, proprietary tools and generative systems. Caroline also discusses Ordo, a previously unreleased series created in 2017 and discovered among the files Csuri had personally archived on his computer, and why bringing this work onto the blockchain feels like a continuation of his thinking about digital art, provenance and preservation.  edit-caroline-csuri (1)

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:57 Meeting Caroline Csuri and carrying forward her father’s legacy
04:38 Growing up around computer graphics and early interactive technology
06:29 Caroline as an artist and understanding her father’s process
07:27 Charles Csuri: artist, scientist and multidisciplinary thinker
11:16 The New York art world, Cedar Tavern and Roy Lichtenstein
14:08 Early computer art and Hummingbird
16:19 30,000 punch cards and the making of early computer animation
18:15 Disney, Frank Thomas, Ollie Johnston and Chuck Jones
19:40 Csuri’s influence on a generation of computer animators
21:38 The 1980s and developing his own artistic tools
24:31 The Ribbon tool and drawing brushstrokes in 3D
26:53 Random War, chance and Csuri’s experience of WWII
29:22 Sine Curve Man and image transformation
30:11 Ordo: discovering the 2017 series on Csuri’s computer
33:31 Charles Csuri’s interest in blockchain and digital preservation
35:01 Renewed attention around Csuri’s work
39:18 Recognition, Christie’s and Caroline’s promise to her father
42:13 Cranston/Csuri Productions and the rise of computer animation
44:59 Returning to the studio and Csuri’s later artistic practice
47:01 How Charles Csuri wanted to be remembered
49:26 Collectors, institutions and renewed interest in his legacy
50:42 Caroline’s vision for Csuri’s work and archive
52:39 Making digital art accessible to a new generation
54:01 Closing thoughts

@Charlescsuri 
wwww.charlescsuri.com

Leyla Fakhr speaks with Brazilian artist, filmmaker and curator Kika Nicolela about community, collecting and finding new audiences for digital art.

Kika discusses her work with Objkt, the culture around Tezos, and why physical exhibitions remain important for digital artists. They also talk about Kika’s recent exhibition in Shiraz and the role art can play in communities beyond the usual European and US centres.

The conversation then turns to Kento, a new collectible art card project connecting physical cards with digital artworks. Kika explains how the project works, why they chose Kickstarter, and how it has helped them reach collectors outside Web3.

They also discuss Instagram, onboarding new audiences, the relationship between physical and digital collecting, and what comes next for Kento.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction: Leyla Fakhr and Kika Nicolela
02:46 Being an artist and curator
05:12 Community, collecting and onboarding artists
08:52 Tezos and experimentation
12:06 Curating at Objkt and Objkt One
16:47 Why physical exhibitions matter for digital art
21:46 Presenting digital art in physical spaces
24:30 Shiraz and the Iranian art scene
28:37 Introducing Kento
30:43 Connecting physical cards with digital artworks
32:01 Rarity, editions and claiming the digital work
35:01 The 40 artists in Kento’s first season
37:00 Why Kento chose Kickstarter
42:45 Building an audience and raising $160,000
44:16 Finding new collectors through Instagram
49:45 Kento’s artists and the theme of web nostalgia
53:06 What comes next for Kento
55:58 Upcoming exhibitions and projects
57:53 Closing thoughts

https://kento.art/
https://www.kikanicolela.art/

Leyla sat down with Michael Spalter, co-founder of the Anne and Michael Spalter Digital Art Collection - one of the world’s most important collections of computer and digital art. They discuss the collection’s history, the pioneers of the field, and the life and legacy of Charles Csuri.

https://spalterdigital.com/

Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction
00:46 – Michael and Anne Spalter’s journey into digital art
05:08 – Building the Spalter Digital Art Collection
09:05 – The pioneers of computer art
15:34 – The extraordinary life and work of Charles Csuri
20:40 – MoMA’s early acquisition of Hummingbird
22:55 – Discovering and collecting Csuri
31:51 – Artistic value versus market value
35:12 – Museums rediscover computer-art pioneers
39:59 – NFTs, Art Blocks and generative art
44:39 – Why Csuri remained outside the traditional art market
52:15 – Collecting as stewardship
56:17 – Csuri’s later 3D ribbon works and legacy
1:00:00 – Closing thoughts

In this episode of Verse Talks, Leyla and Jamie speak with digital art historian and researcher Noah Bolanowski about the overlooked history of digital art. From street art and the early days of Nifty Gateway to the NFT boom, blockchain, and the pioneers of computer art, Noah takes us through his journey into uncovering the people, works and stories that helped shape the medium.

00:00 — Introduction: Noah Bolanowski
01:43 — Becoming a digital art historian
03:16 — Street art, collecting & the origins of Nifty Gateway
07:22 — Keith Haring, Timothy Leary & early digital art
11:59 — Becoming a “digital Indiana Jones”
15:15 — Discovering NFTs & collecting on Nifty Gateway
18:37 — The NFT boom and sudden six-figure valuations
23:27 — Speculation, collectors & the pandemic NFT market
30:48 — The 14-year-old CryptoPunks millionaire
33:03 — What happened to the NFT market?
36:48 — What can blockchain actually do for art?
38:19 — Museums, smart contracts & exhibiting NFTs
43:49 — Rethinking how digital art is displayed
45:15 — Museums and the 70-year history of digital art
48:19 — Why blockchain changed access to digital art
50:21 — 1OF1 and the institutionalisation of digital art
51:47 — Bill Gates’ early digital art displays
55:32 — Do we actually want screens in our homes?
58:49 — Why Noah turned towards digital art history
1:02:48 — Who gets canonised in digital art history?
1:04:05 — Questioning established narratives & the importance of provenance
1:09:13 — The forgotten pioneers of computer art
1:10:43 — Charles Csuri and the unlikely computer art pioneer
1:13:40 — Making computer art in the 1960s
1:16:49 — Why digital art history still needs to be written
1:18:58 — Collecting historic computer art
1:21:15 — How early digital artworks survive and are preserved
1:23:28 — Charles Csuri, treasure hunting & Part Two
1:25:17 — Investigating the past and rediscovering lost histories
1:28:03 — Closing & Part Two

You can find Noah on X @Noahbolanowski

Jon Wubbushi is one of the most unconventional thinkers we've spoken to.

After building companies, he became known for his AI-generated artworks before unexpectedly turning his attention to theoretical physics. Today he leads a research team working on what he believes is a new framework for understanding reality itself.

In this conversation we discuss creativity, AI, quantum mechanics, consciousness, religion, death, morality, and why Jon believes the next decade could fundamentally change humanity.

Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, it's a fascinating conversation about some of the biggest questions we can ask.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction

01:20 Why Jon keeps changing careers

03:30 Becoming addicted to flow

05:00 From entrepreneur to AI artist

06:30 The trilogy of Jon's early AI artworks

09:20 The question that led him into theoretical physics

10:50 Quantum mechanics and the double slit experiment explained

13:15 "We may have discovered how reality works"

15:00 Information, consciousness and the foundations of reality

18:10 Souls, consciousness and reincarnation

22:20 Entering the world of science after becoming an artist

26:40 Could this discovery change humanity?

29:30 Spirituality, religion and why society feels more divided

34:00 AI as a reflection of humanity

35:40 Does the universe have an objective morality?

38:15 What happens after death?

41:40 Is God real?

43:20 Are all religions describing the same thing?

45:30 Why Jon stopped calling himself a Christian

48:20 Aliens, consciousness and advanced civilizations

50:15 Is Elon Musk human?

51:15 Time travel, meditation and the Monroe Institute

54:30 Are we living in a simulation?

55:15 Jon's biggest lesson about life

58:30 Why suffering gives life meaning

1:00:30 The inspiration behind Jon's newest body of work

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About

Jon Wubbushi is one of the most unconventional thinkers we've spoken to.

After building companies, he became known for his AI-generated artworks before unexpectedly turning his attention to theoretical physics. Today he leads a research team working on what he believes is a new framework for understanding reality itself.

In this conversation we discuss creativity, AI, quantum mechanics, consciousness, religion, death, morality, and why Jon believes the next decade could fundamentally change humanity.

Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, it's a fascinating conversation about some of the biggest questions we can ask.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction

01:20 Why Jon keeps changing careers

03:30 Becoming addicted to flow

05:00 From entrepreneur to AI artist

06:30 The trilogy of Jon's early AI artworks

09:20 The question that led him into theoretical physics

10:50 Quantum mechanics and the double slit experiment explained

13:15 "We may have discovered how reality works"

15:00 Information, consciousness and the foundations of reality

18:10 Souls, consciousness and reincarnation

22:20 Entering the world of science after becoming an artist

26:40 Could this discovery change humanity?

29:30 Spirituality, religion and why society feels more divided

34:00 AI as a reflection of humanity

35:40 Does the universe have an objective morality?

38:15 What happens after death?

41:40 Is God real?

43:20 Are all religions describing the same thing?

45:30 Why Jon stopped calling himself a Christian

48:20 Aliens, consciousness and advanced civilizations

50:15 Is Elon Musk human?

51:15 Time travel, meditation and the Monroe Institute

54:30 Are we living in a simulation?

55:15 Jon's biggest lesson about life

58:30 Why suffering gives life meaning

1:00:30 The inspiration behind Jon's newest body of work

In this episode, Mat Dryhurst joins us to discuss how digital art has evolved over the past decade and where it's heading next.

We talk about blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the idea of protocol art - works that are defined less by a single image or object than by the rules, systems, and networks that produce them. Along the way, we discuss collecting, curation, online communities, software as an artistic medium, and why some of the most important developments in contemporary art are happening outside traditional institutions.

Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction
01:35 – Growing up in Kuwait & finding his way into art
03:09 – Collaborating with Holly Herndon for two decades
05:26 – Music, software and creative beginnings
09:29 – Discovering Ethereum before it launched
11:07 – DAOs, crypto and building new institutions
14:00 – Why ambitious artworks take years to make
17:50 – Building a practice outside the traditional art world
20:06 – Making artworks that exist as real software
25:54 – Artist vs Creator
31:04 – Is autonomous art a productive lie?
35:04 – Why we value art we don't always understand
41:14 – Inside *The Call* and designing participatory artworks
44:45 – Why they never create work for the market
48:28 – AI, backlash and losing friends
53:46 – The biggest misconceptions about AI
58:18 – Oxford, AI policy and the future of regulation
01:01:44 – Matt Dryhurst on NFTs
01:07:25 – What NFTs got right
01:12:30 – Crypto art, digital ownership and why it still matters
01:18:05 – Building culture on the blockchain
01:23:10 – Final thoughts

Connect with Matt Dryhurst:

• Twitter
• instagram 

In this episode, Mat Dryhurst joins us to discuss how digital art has evolved over the past decade and where it's heading next.

We talk about blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the idea of protocol art - works that are defined less by a single image or object than by the rules, systems, and networks that produce them. Along the way, we discuss collecting, curation, online communities, software as an artistic medium, and why some of the most important developments in contemporary art are happening outside traditional institutions.

Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction
01:35 – Growing up in Kuwait & finding his way into art
03:09 – Collaborating with Holly Herndon for two decades
05:26 – Music, software and creative beginnings
09:29 – Discovering Ethereum before it launched
11:07 – DAOs, crypto and building new institutions
14:00 – Why ambitious artworks take years to make
17:50 – Building a practice outside the traditional art world
20:06 – Making artworks that exist as real software
25:54 – Artist vs Creator
31:04 – Is autonomous art a productive lie?
35:04 – Why we value art we don't always understand
41:14 – Inside *The Call* and designing participatory artworks
44:45 – Why they never create work for the market
48:28 – AI, backlash and losing friends
53:46 – The biggest misconceptions about AI
58:18 – Oxford, AI policy and the future of regulation
01:01:44 – Matt Dryhurst on NFTs
01:07:25 – What NFTs got right
01:12:30 – Crypto art, digital ownership and why it still matters
01:18:05 – Building culture on the blockchain
01:23:10 – Final thoughts

Connect with Matt Dryhurst:

• Twitter
• instagram