When a lawyer cries with you, it feels caring. Asia Scarlett-Jones argues it is the opposite of what you are paying for. Her job, she says, is to take everything you feel and translate it into something a court can actually act on.

Asia Scarlett-Jones is a matrimonial and family law attorney who now runs her own firm. Before that she worked as a court attorney, on the judge's side of the bench, conferencing cases and helping draft decisions, and earlier she did public-defense work at Legal Aid. That range, from neutral court insider to advocate, informs how she prepares clients for what family court is really like.

In this conversation, Asia and Lisa dig into managing expectations, starting with your own attorney. She explains why she stays rational rather than emotionally invested, how she screens a potential client (including asking what the other parent would say about them), and why she is honest when a client wants the one thing she cannot deliver: a judge who will punish their ex. The court, she reminds them, exists for the children and is measured against the best-interest standard, not for the adults.

They also cover why litigation is a gamble that retraumatizes families, and why settlement usually serves the kids better; how parenting-plan orders go wrong when they are too vague or too rigid, and why you read every line before signing, because a word as small as "must" becoming "may" can sink you at enforcement. Asia closes on communication and emotional regulation: responding quickly to clients, and teaching them to stay calm instead of firing back at every message meant to provoke them.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why an attorney who stays rational, not emotionally invested, serves you better in court
• What a former court attorney learned watching cases from the judge's side of the bench
• How a lack of diversity and interpreters changes families' experience of family court
• Why "make the judge punish my ex" is the one goal a lawyer and a court cannot deliver
• What a trial actually costs a family, and why settling usually protects the kids more
• Why a too-detailed order can backfire, and why you read every word before you sign
• How a single word, "must" turning into "may," can wreck an order at enforcement
• How to model emotional regulation instead of answering every provoking message

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Meeting Asia, and her path to owning a firm
3:00 What a court attorney sees from the judge's side
5:00 The diversity gap, interpreters, and families' experience of court
7:00 Facing an abuser in the room, and what virtual court changed
9:00 Why you don't want a lawyer who's emotionally invested
13:00 Screening a client, and "what would your ex say about you?"
15:00 "What you want, I can't do": the court is for the kids
19:00 Why settling beats litigation, and what a trial really costs
23:00 Parenting-plan orders: too vague, too detailed, and reading every word
31:00 Communication, modeling calm, and knowing when to let go

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183

🎧 More with Asia Scarlett-Jones on this podcast
Ep 124: Co-Parenting Moves That Cost You in Court

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

When a New York judge decides custody, one of the things they weigh heavily is which parent is more willing to support the child's relationship with the other one. Joy Rosenthal, who represented children in family court for a decade before she became a mediator, says that single factor should reshape how a divorcing parent behaves at home.

Joy Rosenthal is a divorce mediator and collaborative lawyer in New York, a family-law professor at CUNY, and, earlier in her career, an attorney for children in family court for roughly ten years. She speaks from personal experience as well, which gives her a rare pairing of legal precision and genuine empathy. She returns to the show for a wider conversation than her earlier one on mediation: what you need to know before, during, and after a divorce, with the children at the center.

Joy makes the case that the law was designed for arms-length business, not families, and that mediation or collaborative work lets people shape decisions a judge with a heavy caseload never could. She walks through the four questions every divorce answers: support, property, parenting time, and child support. She is candid about children: they stay loyal to parents who cannot care for them, they still want the other parent even after witnessing harm, and why a struggling parent should never turn a child into a confidant. She offers specific words for talking to a child about what they saw, and for taking responsibility without shifting the blame.

The last stretch is about expectations. Joy and Lisa name the costs of going in uninformed: chasing a sense of fairness the court does not measure, leaning on an attorney for emotional support a coach could give for a fraction of the price, and expecting a system that rarely punishes lying to deliver justice on schedule. Joy's course, Landing on Your Feet, and her free monthly workshop are built for people at the very beginning, before those mistakes get expensive.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• The four things every divorce has to settle: support, property, parenting time, child support
• Why the legal system was built for business, not families, and what mediation gives back
• Why children stay loyal even to a parent who can't care for them, and why bad-mouthing backfires
• Why your child is not your confidant, and how to stay neutral about the other parent
• What to say to a child who witnessed violence: are you okay, did that scare you, then process it
• Why a custody judge watches which parent supports the child's bond with the other
• What unrealistic expectations actually cost you, and why perjury rarely carries a consequence

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Joy's path: from representing kids to mediating divorces
5:00 Why the law wasn't built for families
7:00 Can collaborative divorce handle high conflict?
9:00 Domestic violence is not only physical
13:00 Why kids stay loyal, even to a parent who fails them
17:00 Shielding kids: your child is not your confidant
19:00 What to say when your child witnessed violence
25:00 The four things every divorce has to settle
29:00 Unrealistic expectations, and the justice myth
37:00 Joy's course and free workshop

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Joy Rosenthal (mediation and her divorce course): https://joyrosenthal.com
🔗 Joy Rosenthal on Instagram (@joymediator): https://www.instagram.com/joymediator

🎧 More with Joy Rosenthal on this podcast
Ep 68: How Divorce Mediation Actually Works
Ep 116: Taking Your Power Back in Divorce Mediation
Ep 120: Protecting Your Kids in a High-Conflict Divorce

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Modupe Ladipo set out to build a program for men. Men kept signing up, and so did women, and he decided that was the answer to a question he had not asked: this is not a men's problem or a women's problem, so the work should not be either.

Our guest this episode is Modupe Ladipo, who runs Renewed Minds from the UK. Renewed Minds is an education and recovery platform for people coming out of narcissistic abuse, built on interviews and lived experience rather than theory, and Modupe came to it as a survivor. He also works as a professional in the corporate world, which shapes how he thinks about the later stage of recovery, and he started the platform in 2020 for reasons he explains near the end.

In this episode, Modupe and Lisa talk about how narrow most people's picture of narcissistic abuse is: that it gets flattened into vanity when it is a pattern of psychological abuse that turns up between co-workers, inside families and in religious communities as readily as in a marriage. They talk about the specific difficulty men face reporting it, from the response they get when they call for help to the pressure to absorb it without complaint, and Modupe raises what that pressure costs.

He describes the eight-week healing and thriving program he built, which deliberately does not stop at recovery: healthy conflict, rebuilding trust in your own judgment, co-parenting, self-esteem, and then getting your ambitions and your working life back, on the reasoning that a life outside the relationship still has to be lived. The line he keeps is one he got from a man he interviewed, that healing is not moving on but moving forward, because the memories are part of the story and are not going anywhere.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why narcissistic abuse is not limited to intimate relationships, and where else it shows up
• What happens when a man reports abuse, and why so many decide not to
• Why the common picture of narcissism keeps people from recognizing their own situation
• How isolation works as a tactic, and what changes when someone realizes they are not alone
• What an eight-week recovery structure covers, from healthy conflict to co-parenting
• Why recovery has to include your working life and ambitions, not just your feelings
• The difference between moving on and moving forward

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 What Renewed Minds is, and why Modupe built it
4:00 Storytelling as the teaching method, and a 25-year marriage
7:00 Abuse as a human problem, not a gendered one
8:30 What men run into when they report it
10:30 The isolation tactic, and realizing it was never just you
12:00 The healing and thriving program, and getting your career back
14:30 Moving forward instead of moving on, and where to find Modupe

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

What separates mediators, Joy Rosenthal says, is not technique. It is mindset. Most divorce mediators come out of litigation, trained to win. The ones worth hiring have traded fighting for helping two people reach an agreement they can both actually live with.

Joy Rosenthal is a divorce mediator, collaborative lawyer, and family-law professor at CUNY who spent about ten years representing children in foster care before she ever mediated a divorce. She has been mediating since 2006. Because she teaches domestic violence and worked for years inside family court, she is unusually alert to how control operates, which shapes how she runs a session. This was her first conversation on the show, built around one question: how does mediation help you take your power back, and how do you find a mediator who can deliver it?

Joy screens every case for domestic violence, which she says is rare, using an intake sheet that asks how arguments ended and how a spouse may have exerted control, not just whether there was physical violence. She lays out the genuine disagreement in the field about mediating when abuse is present, and her own view that removing the option can re-victimize a survivor who wants a peaceful exit. She describes the work of a session: watching body language, drawing out the spouse who hangs back, cutting off the one who dominates, and keeping the focus on what happens next rather than relitigating the past. Blame, she notes, does not get you more in a no-fault state.

The practical heart of it is how to shop for a mediator. Joy points to the national and New York directories, the questions that separate a good fit from a bad one, and the difference between family mediation and the commercial kind. She tells the story of a marathon shuttle mediation that pressured her client into an agreement she still regrets, and explains why real family mediation happens in short, humane sessions. If the power imbalance is too great for mediation, she points to collaborative law as the next step.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What "self-determination" means in mediation, and why it puts you in the driver's seat
• Why a mediator's mindset, fighter versus peacemaker, matters more than their technique
• Why Joy screens every case for domestic violence, and the field's debate about mediating abuse
• How a good mediator reads a room, draws out the more reserved spouse, and steers off the past
• Why blame doesn't get you more in a no-fault state, and where an order of protection fits
• The questions to ask before you hire a mediator, and the directories to find one
• Family mediation versus a commercial "shuttle" marathon, and why the difference matters
• How collaborative law evens a lopsided balance of power while keeping you in control

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 From representing kids to mediating divorces
5:00 Fighter or peacemaker: what sets mediators apart
7:00 Screening for domestic violence, and the debate about mediating abuse
13:00 Why Joy meets with the parties, not the lawyers
15:00 Reading the room, and focusing on the future not the past
19:00 Nonverbal cues, and evening the power imbalance with collaborative law
25:00 How kids shape a parenting plan, and what hurts them most
27:00 How to find a mediator, and the questions to ask
33:00 The shuttle-mediation marathon she regrets
41:00 When mediation is worth trying, and why judges order it

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Joy Rosenthal (mediation and her divorce course): https://joyrosenthal.com
🔗 Joy Rosenthal on Instagram (@joymediator): https://www.instagram.com/joymediator

🎧 More with Joy Rosenthal on this podcast
Ep 70: The Four Things Every Divorce Must Settle
Ep 116: Taking Your Power Back in Divorce Mediation
Ep 120: Protecting Your Kids in a High-Conflict Divorce

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

The hearing ends, you get home, and your body will not come down. Days later you are still braced for something. Caroline Strawson says the nervous system is not reacting to the hearing so much as to what the hearing touched, which is usually a much older belief about not being good enough, not being important, or not being heard.

Caroline Strawson is a trauma therapist and coach based in the UK who specialises in healing after narcissistic abuse, and she hosts a podcast on trauma recovery. She also trains other practitioners as trauma-informed coaches, and her work draws on internal family systems, somatic experiencing, EMDR, brainspotting, breath work and positive psychology rather than talk therapy on its own. She came to all of it after her own marriage to a covert narcissist ended, and after finding that describing what happened week after week seemed to be wiring it in rather than working it out.

In this episode, Caroline and Lisa start with the physical cost. The traffic-light model of the nervous system, and where a family court case puts you on it. Why freeze looks like exhaustion but has a high-alert charge running underneath. The chronic conditions Caroline sees turn up in this population, and the three she believes her own body produced during her marriage and divorce. Why calm can register as more dangerous than conflict once a body has adapted to a cycle of highs and crashes, and why a steady partner afterward can feel boring rather than safe.

They then get into what you can do with it. Why the impulse to fix the whole family court system while your own case is still live is part of the same response, and what it costs you. How your regulation affects whether a judge or an evaluator finds you credible, and why an attorney on the other side will work to provoke exactly the reaction that undermines you. The tools Caroline uses with clients: ice-cold water as a pause point, bilateral tapping, a protective figure held in mind, clothes laid out the day before, and rehearsing the questions she is dreading until each one has an answer. She closes on pacing, on taking healing one hour at a time when a whole day is too much, and on post-traumatic growth.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why a long case leaves you exhausted and wired at the same time, and what freeze actually is
• The chronic conditions that show up when a nervous system stays in a trauma response for years
• Trauma bonding: why calm can feel more frightening than conflict, and why steady partners can feel boring
• Why the urge to fix the family court system mid-case is part of the trauma response
• How your regulation affects whether a judge or evaluator finds you credible
• In-the-room resets: ice-cold water, bilateral tapping, and a protective figure you hold in mind
• How to prep the days before a hearing so nothing is being decided on the morning
• What to do afterward so one bad hearing does not follow you around for a month

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Caroline's background, and why talking therapy wasn't enough
3:00 The constant sense of dread, and the nervous system traffic lights
5:00 What years in a trauma response do to your health
9:00 Trauma bonding, and getting addicted to the struggle
14:00 Why the urge to fix the court system mid-case backfires
18:00 Why a dysregulated parent loses the room
21:00 Ice water, the brain in your hand, and getting back online
24:00 Protective figures, court boots, and the mind movie
28:00 One hour at a time, and post-traumatic growth
32:00 IFS, somatic work, EMDR, and brainspotting

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Caroline Strawson: https://carolinestrawson.com/
🔗 Caroline's trauma recovery and narcissistic abuse podcast: https://carolinestrawson.com/trauma-recovery-and-narcissistic-abuse-podcast/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

The legal system is hard on people who do not have a lawyer, and Nicole Biros-Bolton says so plainly. Her whole focus is closing that gap: showing people how to use the same tools lawyers use, so they are not walking into court blind.

Nicole Biros-Bolton is a human rights lawyer based in Hamilton, Ontario, just outside Toronto. She came to law after a 20-year career as a counselor and advocate for women, gender-diverse people, and children fleeing abusive situations, work that included rape crisis lines, shelters, and supporting pregnant people experiencing violence. That background shapes how she practices, and she posts plain-language legal breakdowns to a large following as @empathylawyer, including a weekly case-law story series.

In this episode, Nicole and Lisa get practical about strengthening a case without spending a fortune. She explains the demand letter step by step, and the fee arrangements many people never think to ask for: contingency, a flat rate, or a reduced hourly with a small contingency on top. They walk through the reality of evidence, including why hearsay and a written letter from a professional often will not be admitted when the court would rather hear that person testify and be cross-examined.

They also cover the human side of a hearing: how a judge reads your credibility, why staying calm through a provoking cross-examination matters, and how to name your nerves so they are not misread. Nicole finishes with a toolkit for representing yourself, from limited-scope lawyers and paralegals who keep costs down, to using AI for drafting but never for legal research, to point-first writing that leads a judge straight from the law to your outcome.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What a demand letter is, and how to use it to get results before you ever file at court
• Fee arrangements worth asking a lawyer for: contingency, flat rate, and reduced hourly
• Why a letter from a therapist or doctor usually will not count, and what the court wants instead
• How to hold steady through a cross-examination designed to make you lose your temper
• Why courtroom credibility rests on how you present, and how to flag your nerves up front
• Why missing a single procedural timeline can end your case, and how to find the rules
• How to use a limited-scope lawyer or paralegal to keep costs down while staying pro se
• Where AI genuinely helps a self-represented litigant, and where it will get you in trouble

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Getting Nicole on, and making the law accessible
3:00 From advocate for abuse survivors to human rights lawyer
5:00 The demand letter: using it before you ever file
9:00 Fee arrangements worth asking for, and proposed orders
11:00 "Perfect evidence," hearsay, and why a therapist's letter won't count
17:00 Recorded conversations as leverage, and reading case law
21:00 Credibility on the stand, and a hostile cross-examination
27:00 Procedure and timelines that can sink a case
31:00 Pro se tips: limited-scope lawyers and using AI wisely
35:00 Point-first writing, and giving the judge a map

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Nicole Biros-Bolton (@empathylawyer) on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empathylawyer/
🔗 Nicole Biros-Bolton (@empathylawyer) on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@empathylawyer

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Abuse isn't gendered, but the way we talk about it often is, and that leaves a lot of men suffering in silence. In this episode, a survivor who goes by "Male Victim Jon" sits down with Lisa to describe what covert narcissistic abuse looked like in his own life, and how he found his way out.

Jon's story lands on something BTGO says often: the tactics don't change based on who's using them. He talks honestly about how hard it was to name what was happening, how isolating it felt, and what shifted when he found a community that understood. From there it's about rebuilding, starting over in his thirties, protecting his kids from alienation, and holding onto the truth that bad parenting harms children no matter who's doing it. Jon's personal account, shared for education and support.

✅ WHAT YOU'LL LEARN
 ✅ What covert narcissistic abuse looks like day to day
 ✅ Why male victims are so often disbelieved
 ✅ How the same tactics show up regardless of the abuser's gender
 ✅ Why finding a community that understood changed everything
 ✅ How to start rebuilding a life and identity in the aftermath
 ✅ How to protect kids from being pulled into alienation
 ✅ Why "bad parenting" harms children no matter who's doing it
 ✅ A message for anyone who feels alone in this

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS (+1:00 for the bumper)
 0:00 Intro
 1:00 A male survivor's story
 11:00 What covert narcissistic abuse looked like
 21:00 Finding a community that understood
 31:00 Rebuilding a life in his thirties
 41:00 Protecting the kids from alienation
 51:00 A message for anyone still struggling

CTA (spoken): Feeling unseen as a male victim of abuse? Book a free discovery call at beentheregotout.com.
 Books: Been There Got Out — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Relationships-Circumstances/dp/194627495X/ · When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Out-Against/dp/1967674183
 Tags: male victims of abuse, covert narcissist, narcissistic abuse, men abused by women, parental alienation, male domestic abuse, surviving narcissistic abuse, rebuilding

Mia Poppe spent almost three years losing. Every major request in her own custody case went the other way, in front of the same judge, and she is a matrimonial lawyer who does this for a living.

Mia Poppe is a matrimonial attorney with offices in midtown Manhattan and Westchester County. She grew up in South Carolina, married at 22, and stayed in that first marriage for 12 years while building a career first in banking and later in law. She is the author of "The Empowered Woman's Guide to Navigating Divorce," and much of what she teaches comes from surviving her own high-conflict custody case after a second divorce she had assumed was behind her.

In this episode, Mia tells Lisa the whole story: the custody action and the far-fetched second claim served on her in 2019, the years of losing to allegations she calls unbelievable, and a judge she came to understand through the lens of affinity and bias rather than simple unfairness. Along the way she makes the case for buying yourself a tribe of coaches and treating that spending as an investment in yourself, and for the oxygen-mask truth that staying only "for the children" serves no one.

The turn in her case, she says, followed a turn in her own mindset: an "image rehabilitation" that changed how she saw the judge and how she carried herself into the room. They talk about why an abusive ex's allegations can threaten your license and your livelihood, why she never lets a client bash the bench, and the marathon mindset that carried her, keep coming back, because the loss is giving up too soon. Justice, she insists, can be found.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why staying "for the children" can model the wrong life, and the oxygen-mask reframe
• What "buying yourself a tribe" means, and why coaching is an investment, not a cost
• Why even a family lawyer could be blindsided by a post-judgment custody action
• How courts try to equalize both parents, and what that does to the targeted one
• Why an abusive ex's allegations can threaten your professional license and income
• How a mindset shift, what she calls image rehabilitation, changed how a courtroom responded to her
• Why bias on the bench is something to work with, not only to rage against
• The marathon mindset: why the loss is giving up too soon, not the setback itself

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Meeting Mia, and a story that stopped Lisa in her tracks
3:00 South Carolina, and a first marriage she knew was wrong in three weeks
7:00 Cognitive dissonance, and the oxygen-mask lesson
11:00 "Buy yourself a tribe": coaches as an investment in you
13:00 An easy divorce, then a custody action out of nowhere in 2019
17:00 False allegations, and behavior that harms the kids to get at you
21:00 How courts equalize, and the threat to your license and livelihood
25:00 Three years of losing, affinity on the bench, and $30,000 in fees
35:00 Reading the invisible, and the three parts of persuasion
37:00 Image rehabilitation: the mindset shift that changed the case
51:00 The turning point, bias, and the marathon mindset

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Mia Poppe: https://www.miapoppe.com/

🎧 More with Mia Poppe on this podcast
Ep 245: Managing Your Reactivity in Family Court
Ep 304: Running a High-Conflict Divorce Like a Business

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Somebody hands over proof, a screenshot, a receipt, a witness, expecting it to settle an argument once and for all. Coach Elizabeth Shaw says that's not how it goes with a manipulative, controlling ex, because some of them aren't lying in the way you'd expect. They've built a version of events they've come to believe, and no amount of evidence competes with that.

Elizabeth Shaw is a UK-based coach who works with people leaving relationships defined by manipulation and control, and she has built a YouTube channel and social following around explaining exactly how these dynamics operate. She's a mother of five and joined this conversation early in her morning to work around Lisa's time zone.

In this conversation, Elizabeth and Lisa talk through why confronting a manipulative partner with facts tends to backfire into blame-shifting instead of resolution, and why targets so often end up wondering if they're the difficult one. They cover the golden-child-and-scapegoat pattern within families, how it shapes both children into people who are easier to exploit later, and a story about someone financially comfortable who posed as homeless to take advantage of a local charity while telling neighbors a very different story about their own family. They also break down trauma bonding: the mirroring and love-bombing that build fast intimacy, the devaluation that follows, and why the cycle produces a real chemical dependency that makes a calm, healthy relationship feel unfamiliar or even boring afterward.

Elizabeth and Lisa also talk about family court as a stage for someone who wants an audience, and why the strongest response is often the simplest one: stay calm, answer only the judge, and let them be the one who loses their composure.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why confronting a manipulative ex with evidence usually backfires instead of resolving anything
• Why targets so often end up wondering if they're the difficult one
• The golden-child-and-scapegoat pattern, and how it shapes both children into easier targets later
• Why family court can work like a stage for someone who needs an audience, and how to take that away from them
• What trauma bonding actually is, and why it creates a real chemical dependency
• Why a healthy relationship can feel "boring" afterward, and what helps break the pattern
• Why non-fatal strangulation is a documented danger signal, not just a lesser form of harm

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Do they believe their own stories, or just perform them
5:00 Why evidence backfires, and why you start doubting yourself instead of them
11:00 Envy, competition, and the golden-child-and-scapegoat pattern
19:00 The homeless-charity story: performing virtue for an audience
25:00 Family court as a stage, and why staying calm takes their power away
27:00 How the same pattern shows up in churches, charities, and communities
31:00 Why they can't tolerate your good news, or feel for your bad news
37:00 Trauma bonding: mirroring, love-bombing, and the chemical rollercoaster
45:00 Why leaving feels so hard, and the 80/20 effort trap
49:00 Confidence vs. arrogance, invisible wounds, and the danger sign of strangulation

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Coach Elizabeth Shaw on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/coachelizabethshaw/
🔗 Coach Elizabeth Shaw on Instagram (@coachelizabethshaw): https://www.instagram.com/coachelizabethshaw/

🎧 More with Elizabeth Shaw on this podcast
Ep 185: The Secret Behaviors of Narcissists

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

When you are in the middle of a divorce, it can feel like it will define the rest of your life. Ruth Chung, who sees these cases every day, wants you to hear that it won't. It is an event in your life, not the whole of it.

Ruth Chung is a matrimonial and family law attorney in New York City with a background in forensic psychology and years of bartending behind her, which is why Lisa calls her one of the unicorn lawyers who actually understand the psychology of a high-conflict case. This is her second conversation on the show, and it is less about courtroom mechanics than about the mindset that gets you through.

Ruth and Lisa talk about why marriage is the one contract people sign without ever reading the terms and conditions, and how to rebuild trust in your own instincts after an abusive relationship has scrambled them. Ruth shares her 24-hour rule for decisions made in a panic, why the honest answer to how much it will cost is that it depends, and the red flag that makes her turn a client away: someone who wants the case to punish rather than to end. She is candid that court is not a therapeutic venue, that its job is to break a legal contract, not to heal your pain or decide who was right.

She also makes a case for finding moments of joy in the middle of grief, especially when children are watching, and for remembering that this is a stage you are passing through, not a life sentence. Her closing wish for every client says it best: I hope you never see me again.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why marriage is the one contract people sign without reading the terms
• How to rebuild trust in your own instincts after an abusive relationship
• The 24-hour rule for any decision you're making in a panic
• Why "how much will it cost" honestly depends, and what drives the number
• The red flag that makes a good attorney turn a client away
• How to choose an attorney you won't end up "breaking up" with
• Why court is there to end a contract, not to heal your pain or decide who was right

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Ruth's "unicorn" background
3:00 The contract nobody reads the terms on
5:00 When opposing counsel gets personal
7:00 When it feels like the judge doesn't like you
9:00 Rebuilding trust in your own instincts after abuse
13:00 The panic state, and the 24-hour rule
15:00 "How much will it cost?" and why it depends
17:00 The red flag: clients who want revenge, not resolution
19:00 Choosing an attorney you won't "break up" with
23:00 Life after the case, and finding joy in the grief

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Ruth Chung at The Chung Firm: https://www.chungfirm.com/

🎧 More with Ruth Chung on this podcast
Ep 160: How to Hold Your Own in Family Court

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.