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“We never fight” sounds peaceful, but is it actually connection—or quiet disconnection in disguise? We open up about a small argument over wedding dishes that revealed a much bigger truth: real intimacy requires honest engagement, not appeasing or winning. When one of us began to withdraw and the other escalated, the moment turned on a single request—“engage me so I know I matter.” From there, we unpack how boundaries, attachment styles, and the window of tolerance shape what happens between two people under stress.

Across this conversation, we explore why conflict is necessary for a healthy relationship, especially for parents managing constant fatigue and decision overload. We trace how childhood lessons teach us to either retreat or pursue and how those moves show up as “never fighting” or constant protest. You’ll learn the difference between withdrawal and appeasing (and why both feel like abandonment), how to replace defensiveness with curiosity, and the simple structure we use to turn friction into understanding. We also dig into avoidant and preoccupied attachment patterns and why resentment fades when both partners feel heard—even if the final choice doesn’t go their way.

By the end, you’ll have a practical lens for navigating everyday disagreements—like picking dishes—that carry deeper meaning about value, respect, and belonging. If you’re ready to shift from the same old arguments into real connection, press play and practice the two-part commitment of engagement: share yourself clearly and listen like your partner matters. If this resonates, follow the show, leave a rating, and share this episode with someone who thinks “no fights” equals “we’re fine.” Your relationship deserves more than survival mode—subscribe and help us grow this community of connected couples.

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Want some personalized help. Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Feeling disconnected from your partner despite regular date nights and check-ins? You're not alone. This raw, insightful episode dives into one of the most common relationship challenges parents face: that persistent feeling that something's missing in your connection.

Through the relatable story of Joy and Grant, we unpack why simply spending time together doesn't automatically create meaningful connection. The problem isn't your busy schedule—it's understanding what connection truly means on a neurobiological level. Connection requires both physical closeness and emotional responsiveness, creating what attachment theory calls a "safe haven" and "secure base." These aren't just theoretical concepts but deeply human needs that follow us into adulthood and our romantic relationships.

We reveal why conflict often emerges from disconnection—one partner pushes for change while the other feels criticized for not doing enough. This "upshifting" versus "downshifting" dynamic creates misunderstanding rather than closeness. The breakthrough comes in recognizing that small, consistent acts matter more than grand gestures or occasional date nights. When you discover what specific actions make your partner feel truly seen and responded to, you can transform everyday moments into powerful connection points.

Ready to feel closer? Listen and we'll tell you how. 

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Want some personalized help. Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Have you ever caught yourself thinking that all your relationship problems are your partner's fault? What if your perspective is actually contributing to the conflict cycle?

When we repeatedly focus on negative thoughts about our relationships, those patterns become our default way of seeing our partners. This isn't about blame or shame – it's about understanding how our nervous systems work under stress. As parents juggling countless responsibilities, stress naturally narrows our perspective, putting us in survival mode where we see threats everywhere – even from the person we love most.

The fascinating truth about negative mindsets is that once established, they're remarkably efficient at finding supporting evidence. If I believe my partner doesn't value family time, I'll notice every instance when they're distracted while completely overlooking moments of engagement. It's not manipulation; it's how our brains work when trying to protect us from perceived threats.

But there's hope through mindfulness. By consciously shifting our attention to three key questions, we can break free from these cycles: Do I fundamentally trust my partner's love and intentions? What is genuinely true about them beyond our conflicts? What do I like about them as a person, partner, and parent? This isn't about ignoring problems – it's about seeing the complete picture instead of just the negative frame.

The most transformative relationships are built on these small, daily choices to see each other fully. When we can joke about our negative patterns and repair quickly after conflicts, we create the depth and connection we've always wanted. Your mindset matters in your relationship – and mindfully choosing to shift from negativity to a balanced perspective might be the most powerful change you can make.

Take a moment today to practice seeing your partner through a wider lens. What might change if you approached your next conversation with curiosity instead of negativity?

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Want some personalized help. Schedule a free coaching consultation here: 

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Shame might be the most misunderstood force in your relationship. Not the obvious kind—but the subtle variety that hijacks conversations without you even realizing it's there. In this revelatory episode, we uncover how shame operates as the hidden engine behind the most common relationship complaints: "My partner is so defensive" or "All they do is criticize me."

Through a realistic case study of Brian and Justine's kitchen conversation, we demonstrate how quickly a simple interaction can spiral into criticism and defensiveness—not because either partner is trying to be difficult, but because both are caught in shame's grip. We reveal the two fundamental shame categories: "I'm not enough" (manifesting as defensiveness) and "I'm not important enough" (emerging as criticism).

What makes this particularly challenging is that most of us don't recognize shame when we're experiencing it. Instead of thinking "I feel shame," we believe "Nothing I do is ever enough" or "I'll never get what I need from my partner." By learning to identify these patterns and understanding the shame trigger beneath them, couples can develop a shorthand for catching these cycles before they escalate.

The episode offers practical strategies for breaking free from shame-based communication, including recognizing when you've entered a shame pattern, receiving influence from your partner, clarifying conversation goals, and creating simple repair moments. These tools transform what could be prolonged arguments into opportunities for deeper connection.

Ready to understand what's really happening beneath the surface of your most frustrating communication patterns? Listen now and discover how addressing shame could be the breakthrough your relationship needs. And if you're finding these insights valuable, remember to subscribe and leave a review to help others discover the show.

Get Too Tired To Fight: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Schedule Your Free Coaching Consult: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

That moment when your partner's chewing suddenly sounds like nails on a chalkboard. When their touch makes you cringe instead of melt. When even their kindest gestures somehow feel... gross. Welcome to "the ick" – that mysterious feeling of sudden repulsion that can leave you questioning your entire relationship.

On this revealing episode, we dive deep into this common but rarely discussed phenomenon, exploring how it frequently surfaces in parent relationships and what it's really telling us. Through our fictional case study of Mel and Vivian, we unpack how "the ick" often emerges when one partner feels overwhelmed by responsibilities while the other seems oblivious to their burden. 

Many parents silently suffer with thoughts like "I'm the one holding everything together" or "They want my attention but don't see how overwhelmed I am." These feelings stack up over time, creating a growing sense of resentment that manifests as physical and emotional aversion. What's particularly challenging is finding a way to express these feelings without hurting your partner or damaging your connection further.

We offer a practical three-step approach to addressing this relationship challenge: First, acknowledging and expressing your feelings honestly; second, listening for the truth in your partner's experience without defensiveness; and third, actively shifting the dynamics that led to the disconnection. This might mean redistributing household responsibilities, but more importantly, it requires a deeper form of engagement – becoming truly curious about your partner's experience and connecting in ways that feel meaningful to them.

Through personal examples and thoughtful dialogue, we demonstrate that "the ick" isn't a relationship death sentence – it's a signal that something needs attention. By approaching this uncomfortable feeling with curiosity rather than judgment, couples can use it as a catalyst for positive change and deeper connection.

Ready to transform those icky feelings into opportunities for growth? Listen now and discover how honest communication can help you navigate one of the most challenging but common experiences in long-term relationships. Your partnership doesn't have to end because of "the ick" – in fact,

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Feeling like you're carrying the weight of parenting while your partner merely "helps out" when asked? This tension over unbalanced parenting responsibilities ranks among the most relationship-threatening conflicts couples face—often leading to questions about whether you've chosen the right partner.

Through the story of Sam and Leah, we explore a scenario that resonates with countless parents: Leah handles 80% of child-related tasks and 90% of the emotional labor while working full-time, while Sam consistently drops the ball on important events despite reminders. When Trevor's school performance becomes the latest casualty of this dynamic, the resulting argument reveals much deeper issues about parenting partnership.

We introduce a framework of three distinct parenting partner types that can transform how you understand your relationship struggles. Are you dealing with a "do nothing partner" who leaves everything to you, a "well-intentioned helper" who needs constant direction, or a "mutually overwhelmed partner partner" who genuinely tries to balance responsibilities but occasionally falters? Recognizing these patterns helps couples move beyond mischaracterization and defensiveness toward constructive solutions.

For overburdened partners, we provide actionable strategies to express frustration effectively, set clear boundaries, and make invisible labor visible. For non-default parents, we offer guidance on acknowledging your partner's valid concerns, setting aside defensiveness, and adopting the mindset that "there is no someone else"—if you see something needing attention, you are the resource to handle it.

The episode culminates with a model repair conversation and introduces our System Check for Parenting Partners tool—a practical resource for regularly evaluating and redistributing family responsibilities. Remember, successful co-parenting isn't about maintaining a perfect 50-50 split; it's about both partners taking responsibility, communicating openly, and ensuring neither feels consistently overburdened.

Ready to transform your parenting partnership? Download our System Check worksheet and start creating the balanced, supportive family dynamic you both deserve: 

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Ever find yourself locked in a heated argument with your partner over something that seems trivial—like whether your child can ride their bike in the street instead of on the sidewalk? These everyday parenting disagreements can quickly escalate, leaving you both frustrated and disconnected, despite agreeing on your broader parenting philosophy.

Today we tackle these seemingly minor differences that create major tension. While many couples align on core values, discipline approaches, and long-term goals, it's often the day-to-day decisions where conflicts emerge. One parent feels strongly about saying "no" while the other sees no problem with "yes"—and suddenly you're in a standoff that feels much bigger than the issue at hand.

Through our case example of Hunter and Ren disagreeing about bike riding boundaries, we demonstrate how these conflicts aren't really about rules, but about what feels safe, what feels risky, and what makes each parent anxious. We share our personal experiences too, from water safety concerns at a lake house to differing perspectives on outdoor risks while camping or hiking.

The good news? We offer a practical three-step process to transform these moments from conflict to connection. First, understand how this issue became important to each of you—what past experiences or fears shape your perspective? Second, recognize what your partner is seeing from your communication style—are they feeling dismissed or controlled? Finally, identify where you can find common ground that addresses both of your underlying concerns.

Remember, strong reactions signal importance, not irrationality. When your partner keeps pushing a point that seems minor to you, try responding with curiosity rather than dismissal. By approaching differences with genuine respect and working to find solutions that honor both perspectives, you'll strengthen your partnership and create more harmony in your parenting journey.

Ready to transform how you handle parenting differences? Schedule a free consultation with us through the link in our show description, and discover how to navigate these challenges together.

Schedule your free consult here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/m

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

The back-to-school season brings a whirlwind of activity that can leave even the strongest relationships feeling disconnected. Soccer schedules, school supplies, and new routines create a perfect storm where couples find themselves working efficiently as logistics partners but missing each other as romantic partners.

This episode tackles the reality that many parents face during transitional seasons: feeling like you've "gone away" from yourself and your relationship. Dr. Stephen Mitchell and Erin Mitchell, MACP explore how even couples who excel at coordinating family life can struggle to maintain meaningful connection when schedules explode.

We introduce three practical strategies for staying connected without requiring what most parents simply don't have – abundant free time. Through self-reflection, curiosity about your partner, and reimagining how connection happens, couples can maintain intimacy during chaotic seasons. The key insight? Micro-moments matter. Just as small disconnections accumulate to create distance, intentional moments of connection – even just a minute or two – build a foundation of closeness that sustains relationships through busy parenting years.

Using the story of Gabby and Latrice, we demonstrate how real couples can incorporate these practices into everyday moments like brushing teeth together or sending a thoughtful text. You'll learn how to ask questions that truly invite your partner to share, how to use the time you already have for meaningful reflection, and how to appreciate connection attempts even when they don't land perfectly.

Whether you're in the thick of back-to-school madness or navigating any busy season of family life, this episode offers hope that your relationship doesn't have to disappear when time feels impossible. Try our three-step approach and discover how small moments can create lasting connection during life's busiest chapters.

Want to talk with Stephen or Erin individually or as a couple for coaching? Schedule a free consult today: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

Remember when you first fell in love? That magical feeling of finding someone who didn't trigger your deepest wounds but seemed to heal them instead? Fast forward through careers, kids, and countless responsibilities, and suddenly those same wounds are wide open again – activated by the very person who once soothed them.

This episode tackles the universal feeling many couples experience but rarely discuss openly: the sense that your partner is actually making your life harder rather than easier. Through the relatable story of Greg and Lucia's conflict over forgotten sports equipment, we unpack how seemingly small disagreements transform into major emotional disconnections. For Greg, whose childhood featured constant criticism, his partner's frustration triggers deep feelings of inadequacy. For Lucia, whose father's absence left lasting abandonment wounds, her partner's oversight reinforces her fear of handling everything alone.

The breakthrough comes in understanding that our relational pain doesn't disappear – but we can change how we respond to it. When both partners recognize what's really happening beneath surface-level conflicts, conversation shifts from blame to understanding. We provide a practical framework for effective repair: validating each other's experiences, acknowledging impact, taking responsibility, and committing to future changes. As we demonstrate through Greg and Lucia's repair conversation, this approach allows couples to honor both their individual wounds and their shared commitment to connection.

Most powerfully, we explore the crucial distinction that explanations are not excuses. Understanding why you react strongly to certain triggers doesn't absolve you from taking responsibility – it empowers you to respond differently. When couples embrace this principle, they transform from adversaries into allies, using their stories not as weapons but as bridges for deeper understanding.

Ready to break free from recurring conflicts and build a stronger connection with your partner? Schedule a free consultation through our website to learn how our unique couples coaching approach can help you move from conflict to true partnership or paste this link your URL to view our consultation calendar: https://calendl

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...

Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.

In this milestone 100th episode of Couples Counseling for Parents, Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP reflect on the transformative relationship wisdom they've gathered over the years of working with couples facing the unique challenges of parenthood.

The insights they share are both profound and practical. They discuss how true bravery emerges when couples face their deepest fears and vulnerabilities; how humility creates openings for healing; and how our universal desire to be truly seen and accepted drives relationship dynamics. The Mitchells explain why genuine curiosity defuses tension, why understanding your partner's childhood story transforms how you perceive conflicts, and why celebrating joy deserves as much attention as addressing problems.

Perhaps most powerfully, they reveal how parenting often becomes the catalyst that inspires couples to break dysfunctional patterns. "Having kids amplifies what you want in life and makes you fight for it," they observe. "Your life didn't diminish when you had children—it gave you permission to ask for more."

Throughout their conversation, Stephen and Erin weave in practical examples from their own relationship, demonstrating how these principles play out in real life. They emphasize that the goal isn't to eliminate conflict (an impossible and boring aim) but to transform how we approach it, gradually reducing its intensity, duration, and frequency.

Whether you're just starting your parenting journey or navigating its challenges years in, these insights offer a roadmap to more connected, resilient relationships. Ready to transform how you communicate with your partner? This episode shows you the way forward.

Take the Couple Communication Quiz! Ever wonder why you and your partner keep having the same fight or just can't seem to understand each other? We've got answers. Take the quiz and find out: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/forms/2149422422

Do you want to learn about the one thing we think every individual and couple needs to know for healthy communication and connection? Check out our course Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/attachment-course-ccfp

Get 15% off our course--Attachment Theory: Why It Matters To Your Relationship: https://couplescounselingforparents.mykajabi.com/offers/MGiJwHLf?coupon_code=ATTACHMENT15

Want some personalized help (individual or couple). Schedule a free coaching consultation here: https://calendly.com/ccfp/meet-the-mitchells

Get your copy or audiobook of Too Tired to Fight today!: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Interested in one of Erin's postpartum groups? Let us...