Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

A bonus episode, recorded at the International Enneagram Association conference in Minneapolis.

Creek, Abram, Lindsey, and Lee sat down with Dr. Jerome Wagner and Patrick O'Leary — two Jesuits who first met the Enneagram in a Chicago graduate seminar in the early 1970s, taught by a famously dull theology professor named Bob Ochs who had gone away for a year with Claudio Naranjo and come back in bell bottoms and a flowered shirt. Fifty-four years later, they're still asking the question that runs underneath this entire conversation: is this something, or is this nothing?

They walk us through what the Enneagram actually was before it was everywhere — an oral tradition shared among fifteen people in a room — and what changed when they decided to write it down. That decision cost them $75,000 in legal fees when Oscar Ichazo's Eureka Institute sued them, a case that ended in summary judgment on the grounds that this material was never anyone's to own.

We also get their attempt to sort the essentials from everything added since: the Sufis gave us the circle, Gurdjieff added the numbers, Ichazo added the centers and the instincts. Everything after that, they'd argue, is sub-theory worth testing rather than inheriting.

It's a rare chance to hear this history from the people who were actually in the room — and it ties directly into everything we explored in Season 5.

Resources mentioned

• The Enneagram Spectrum: An Introduction — Jerome P. Wagner
• Nine Lenses on the World: The Enneagram Perspective — Jerome P. Wagner
• The Enneagram: A Christian Perspective — Richard Rohr and Andreas Ebert
• Gurdjieff: Making a New World — J.G. Bennett
• International Enneagram Association

The culmination of our fifth season encapsulates a profound exploration of growth through the lens of the Enneagram, revealing that true development demands a nuanced understanding of oneself and others. Throughout this season, we endeavored to showcase the diverse schools of thought within the Enneagram community, emphasizing the importance of critical thinking and the ability to hold complexity in our perspectives. The incomparable, Lee Fields joins us halfway through to give us her take on the season and illuminate the necessity for individuals to engage deeply with their own narratives while remaining open to the insights of others, thereby fostering an environment conducive to genuine growth. Together, we reflect on the journey we undertook, acknowledging the challenges faced and the insights gained, as we sought to create a lasting resource for our audience. As we transition into future endeavors, we remain committed to advancing the conversation surrounding the Enneagram, encouraging listeners to embrace both the rigidity and fluidity inherent in their personal growth journeys.

Big thanks to LEE FIELDS for joining us in this last episode. We love you Lee!

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

In Part 2, we unpack our thoughts on what the Enneagram teachers shared in our last episode. You'll hear us compare and contrast the models, and share what resonated with us, as well as what we'd like to see evolve, and we explore how we plan to synthesize all we've learned and carry it forward. We are so very grateful to our six teachers for their gift of time and knowledge, and their incredible generosity.

Mental Health Toolkit: Tools to Bolster Your Mood & Mental Health

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

As we begin wrapping up season 5, we're answering the question, "What now?" We've looked at all seven types through the lens of three influential models, but how do we actually apply it? As we say our goodbyes, we ask our six teachers how their models contribute to growth and transformation, as well as their hopes for the future evolution of the Enneagram.

Awareness to Action

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

The focal point of this podcast episode revolves around the exploration of Type Seven within the Enneagram framework, characterized by their intrinsic desire for excitement and aversion to emotional pain. We delve into the complexities of the Seven's experience, emphasizing the multifaceted nature of their personality, which is often misunderstood as superficiality. Through thoughtful discourse, we unravel the dichotomy of their vibrant exterior contrasted with the profound emotional depth they possess, often hidden beneath a facade of joy. By sharing personal anecdotes and insights, we aim to illuminate the rich inner world of Sevens, fostering a greater understanding of their motivations and challenges. The dialogue further encourages listeners to reflect on their own interactions and perceptions of this dynamic type, inviting a deeper appreciation for the nuanced layers that define the Seven's journey.

Human Interview: Milton Stewart

kaizencareers.com

Do It For The Gram Podcast

The Enneagram Institute 

Type 7

The Narrative Enneagram

Type 7

Awareness to Action

Type 7

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

The salient focus of our discourse today revolves around the exploration of Type 6 within the Enneagram framework, characterized predominantly by a quest for security and an instinctive response to perceived threats. Throughout this episode, I engage with nine distinguished speakers, each contributing unique insights into the complexities that define this personality type. We delve into the dual expressions of Type 6, namely the phobic and counterphobic tendencies, highlighting how both seek safety albeit through divergent methodologies. The conversation further touches upon the intrinsic relationship between fear and courage, elucidating how these emotions coexist and inform the behaviors of Type 6 individuals. As we navigate these profound themes, our aim is to foster a comprehensive understanding of Type 6, encouraging listeners to reflect on how these dynamics may manifest in their own lives and in their interactions with others.

Human Interview: Ben Campbell

Website

Instagram

Awareness to Action

Type 6

The Enneagram Institute

Type 6

The Narrative Enneagram

Type 6

Awareness to Action

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

The focal point of today's discourse revolves around the Enneagram Type Five, characterized by their profound inclination towards detachment and observation as a means of navigating an overwhelmingly stimulating world. We delve into the complexities inherent in the Five’s experience, particularly emphasizing their heightened sensitivity, which often compels them to create emotional distance from their surroundings. Throughout our dialogue, various participants elucidate the nuances of the Five's emotional landscape, shedding light on the intricate interplay between intellect and feeling that defines their existence. Additionally, we reflect upon the common misconceptions surrounding Fives, particularly the notion that they are devoid of emotion, highlighting instead their rich internal life and the necessity for connection. As we progress, we invite listeners to consider how understanding Type Five can foster deeper empathy and insight into their own experiences and those of others.

HUMAN INTERVIEW: Melissa Kircher

Website

Instagram

Twitter

Ticktok

The Enneagram Institute

Type 5

Awareness to Action

Type 5

The Narrative Enneagram

Type 5

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

In this special collaborative episode with Do It for The Gram, the International Enneagram Association Podcast and Fathoms, Milton Stewart is joined by Seth “Creek” Creekmore, Lindsey Marks and Lee Fields as they preview the upcoming IEA Enneagram Experience 2025 - Global Conference and Celebration. All four hosts will be in attendance, so they share what they are looking forward to at this summer’s annual event while also reflecting on this year’s theme — 30 years honoring Enneagram pioneers and future frontiers.

The Fathoms team will continue to host the IEA podcast with the traditional long form interviews with legendary figures as well as collect personal stories from attendees to deeply humanize this work. In their current Season Five, Fathoms has been focusing on the history of the Enneagram from the perspective of different schools and models to get a fuller picture of how they’ve come into this tool, providing an important and better framework and grounding before the conference.

Milton's Links and Handles:

Join KCEP Program: kaizen-enneagram-community.mn.co

The B.I.G. Enneagram Retreat: bigenneagramretreat.simvoly.com/application

Milton's Website: KaizenCareers.com

Upcoming Events: kaizencareers.com/upcoming-events

IEA Links:

IEA Enneagram Experience 2025: ieaexperience.com

IEA Podcast: international-enneagram.captivate.fm

Connect with Creek:

Instagram: @_creekmore

Pod: Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

Pod: Awareness to Action Enneagram Podcast

Pod: Delusional Optimism with Dr. B

Connect with Lindsey:

IG: @lindseyfaithdm

Pod: Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

Connect with Lee:

Web: enneagrammatic.com

Awareness to Action

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

The focal point of this podcast episode revolves around the exploration of Enneagram Type Four, often perceived as the individualistic or romantic type, characterized by a profound longing for identity and uniqueness. Our discussion delves into the complexities of the emotional landscape of Fours, emphasizing their capacity for creativity and introspection, as well as the challenges they face with feelings of inadequacy and longing for connection. Throughout the episode, we engage in a rigorous examination of how Fours navigate their emotional depths and the societal perceptions that often label them as overly sensitive or melancholic. The insights offered by our guests illuminate the paradoxes inherent in the Four's journey—balancing the pursuit for meaning with the acceptance of the mundane aspects of life. Ultimately, we aim to foster a deeper understanding of Type Fours, inviting listeners to appreciate the rich and nuanced experiences that define this unique personality type.

Human Interview: Stephanie Spencer

WEBSITE

stephaniejspencer.com

BOOKS

Out of the Box & Into the Wild: An Enneagram Journey Through the Triads of Nature

Beyond Your Number

Awareness to Action

Type 4

The Enneagram Institute

Type 4

The Narrative Enneagram

Type 4

Jerry Seinfeld on writers block

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

This podcast episode delves into the complexities of the Enneagram Type 3, also known as "The Achiever." We explore the dichotomy of striving for excellence while grappling with the inherent anxieties of performance and recognition. A special guest, Vanessa Fernandez, shares her personal journey in understanding her threeness, articulating the challenges of balancing ambition with authenticity. Throughout the discussion, we highlight the often-overlooked emotional depth and relational dynamics of Type 3 individuals, emphasizing that their drive for success is not merely superficial but deeply intertwined with their sense of self-worth. As we navigate these themes, we encourage listeners to reflect on their own experiences and perceptions surrounding achievement and recognition.

HUMAN INTERVIEW: Vanessa Fernandez

WEBSITE

Enneagramworkshop.com

PODCAST

The Enneagram Workshop Podcast

The Enneagram Institute

Type 3

The Narrative Enneagram

Type 3

Awareness to Action

Type 3

Awareness to Action

Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Podcasts:

Awareness to Action

Enneagram in a Movie

Terry Saracino:

Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/

Christopher Copeland:

Web: illuminatingpaths.com

Narrative Podcasts:

Heart of the Enneagram

The Somatic Enneagram

From Armor to Ease

Gayle Scott:

Email - [email protected]

Michael Naylor:

Web - enneagrammaine.com

You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews

—

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans

—

Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts

• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
• Follow Creek: @_creekmore
• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm