Mamamia Out Loud

Michelle Obama has spoken—and she’s not here to please everyone. The former First Lady revealed what it really took to skip Donald Trump’s inauguration, and why sometimes, disappointing people is exactly the right move. Mia, Jessie and Holly explore Michelle's decision and the role of women as 'shock absorbers'. 

Also, can kids read minds? The hit podcast The Telepathy Tapes thinks so. But the science behind it is looking more complicated. We discuss.

Plus, Meghan Markle has shared a surprising part of her bedtime routine—except it’s not for her, won’t be used for years (if ever), and contains a whole lot of admin. 

And Gwyneth Paltrow is back in the headlines with a twist no one saw coming: she’s eating carbs again. But do we really need to know every time a celebrity changes their lunch order? Yep, our hosts have thoughts on this...

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: Caroline Bessette-Kennedy: The Original Influencer
• Listen: An Honest Day On Our Plate
• Listen: We're Fighting About Being Ugly
• Listen: What Supercommunicators Know That We Don't
• Listen: Sex Toys, Borrowing Money & A Dad's Group Chat Faux Pas
• Listen: The Influencer Who's Changed Too Much & Liz Hurley's Hard Launch
• Listen: Katy Perry, Gayle King & THAT Blue Origin Space Flight
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What to read:

• Read: Meghan Markle writes a letter every night. They won't be opened for years.
• Read: 'For Meghan Markle's show to succeed, she needs to go full Gwyneth Paltrow.'
• Read: ‘A debate is raging over Gwyneth Paltrow’s "boyfriend breakfast" and this time I'm on her side.’
• Read: Exactly why the internet is convinced the Obamas are divorcing.
• Read: For a brief moment, the internet was convinced Barack Obama and Jennifer Aniston were having an affair.
• Read: All of Holly Wainwright's books in one place.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures. 

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When you fall for someone else on national television, is there a right way to break the news to your partner? On today's show, we dive deep into the tangled breakup of Jojo Siwa and Aussie Kath Ebbs — and yep, it’s messier than you think.

Also, the final leaders’ debate served up a baffling convo about eggs, a full-blown culture war, and plenty of secondhand embarrassment. 

And finally, we're at home with the deeply calm and zen-like Clooneys. George and Amal never argue apparently but is this really something to aspire to in a marriage? We’re unpacking everything they're missing out on when there's no argy-bargy and reveal what couples actually fight about.

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: What Supercommunicators Know That We Don't
• Listen: Sex Toys, Borrowing Money & A Dad's Group Chat Faux Pas
• Listen: The Influencer Who's Changed Too Much & Liz Hurley's Hard Launch
• Listen: Katy Perry, Gayle King & THAT Blue Origin Space Flight
• Listen: Another Little Treat: The Tyranny Of Looking Like You Haven't Tried
• Listen: A Little Treat: This Special Live Show Recording Spilt 10 Years of Tea
• Listen: The Exact Science To Keep You Enjoying Your Job 
• Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What to read:

• Hours after leaving Big Brother, JoJo Siwa and Kath Ebbs split. Now, Kath has spoken.
• After another 'aggressive' incident, Mickey Rourke has left Celebrity Big Brother.
• Virginia Giuffre, one of Jeffrey Epstein's most prominent accusers, has died, aged 41.
• Days before her heartbreaking post, Virginia Giuffre was facing court.
• 'The sausage dog who terrorised Kangaroo Island for 500 days is my obsession. At last, we have an update.'
• 'My life changed.' A look into George Clooney's family life with 7-year-old twins.
• 'I asked couples without kids what they actually fight about. One answer kept coming up.'

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today's Sunday Special is one we think you're going to love. 

Mia Freedman has been in countless conversations with Holly Wainwright—on mics, off mics, in meetings, in texts. But she’s never been on MID. Until now.

In this episode, Holly kicks off Season Five with someone who knows her well, and who’s read something very personal—her brand new book, He Would Never.

It’s a story about the limits and power of female friendships, narcissistic love, and the tricky transitions from girlhood to teenagehood. And Mia had thoughts. Lots of them. For one - the teenage girls we were in the 90s are very different than the teenage girls of today.

This episode is about writing and ambition. Confidence and self-doubt. Teenage daughters and their teenage selves. It’s a conversation between two women the same age, but at different parenting stages.

At the end of this episode, Holly has a very special gift for you - so stick around, you don't want to miss it.

You can pre order Holly's book He Would Never here. And it's available in all good book stores from April 29th

THE END BITS: 

Share your feedback! Send us a voice message or email us at [email protected] 

Follow us on Instagram @MidbyMamamia or sign up to the MID newsletter, dropping weekly here. 

Mamamia's new podcast BIZ is rewriting the rules of work with no generic advice - just real strategies from women who've actually been there. Listen here.

CREDITS:

Host: Holly Wainwright

Guest: Mia Freedman

Executive Producer: Naima Brown

Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray

Producer: Tahli Blackman

Audio Producer: Jacob Round

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When was the last time you cried in front of someone else? Or shared a deep conversation that left you feeling fulfilled? Well friends, we've found a magical list of questions that might be the shortcut to connection. We unpack the secrets of supercommunicators.

Plus - Holly's favourite lip products, a book Jessie needs everyone to read, and an article about the most wild new cosmetic procedure we've heard yet... it's our recommendations.

And, our bests and worsts including a camping Nicole, a family sick-fest, and some feedback for Nana.

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Get your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: Sex Toys, Borrowing Money & A Dad's Group Chat Faux Pas
• Listen: The Influencer Who's Changed Too Much & Liz Hurley's Hard Launch
• Listen: Katy Perry, Gayle King & THAT Blue Origin Space Flight
• Listen: Another Little Treat: The Tyranny Of Looking Like You Haven't Tried
• Listen: A Little Treat: This Special Live Show Recording Spilt 10 Years of Tea
• Listen: The Exact Science To Keep You Enjoying Your Job 
• Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
• Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

Recommendations: 

Jessie wants you to read The Safekeep Novel by Yael van der Wouden

Holly wants you to try the NARS Afterglow Lip Balm 

Mia wants you to check out 'Inside Australia's booming leg lengthening industry' by Erin Docherty

What to read:

• The best new TV shows and movies to binge this long weekend.
• 'I used these two words constantly until someone called me out. My career changed overnight.'
• 'There are 6 different conversation styles. If you’re a "builder", stay away from me.'
• Yes, your friends are talking about you. And other lessons from the 'White Lotus Three'.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

CREDITS:

Hosts: Jessie Stephens, Holly Wainwright & Mia Freedman

Group Executive Producer: Ruth Devine

Executive Producer: Emeline Gazilas

Audio Producer: Leah Porges

Video Producer: Josh Green

Junior Content Producers: Coco Lavigne & Tessa Kotowicz

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when a person becomes the brand? Influencer Remi Bader is facing backlash for a personal transformation—and her followers aren’t happy they weren’t part of the journey. We unpack the online pushback and ask: does she actually owe anyone an explanation?

Plus, Pope Francis passed away this week. What happens now? We take you inside the mysterious, centuries-old process of choosing the next Pope.

Also, with just 10 days until the Australian election, a major issue is being overlooked. In a week filled with devastating headlines about violence against women, we’re asking: what do we really expect from the leaders of our country?

And finally… Liz Hurley has gone public with a very unexpected new romance—and it’s giving a very specific energy. We’ve got thoughts. Lots of them.

Support independent women's media

Resources:

If you or someone you know is in need of support contact help is available:

1800RESPECT  1800 737 732 
Lifeline 13 11 14 
Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636

The End Bits:

Make a donation to RizeUp. RizeUp helps survivors of domestic violence rebuild their lives and break free from the cycle of violence.

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: Katy Perry, Gayle King & THAT Blue Origin Space Flight
• Listen: Another Little Treat: The Tyranny Of Looking Like You Haven't Tried
• Listen: A Little Treat: This Special Live Show Recording Spilt 10 Years of Tea
• Listen: The Exact Science To Keep You Enjoying Your Job 
• Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
• Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What to read:

• Thi Kim Tran suffered an unthinkable crime. We finally know why.
• Three women dead in 24 hours. Yet our potential leaders remain silent.
• From anti-climate science to 'pro-life': What every single minor party actually stands for
• A serious investigation into Liz Hurley's eclectic taste in men.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Happy Monday, Outlouders — we’ve got a juicy little treat for you. Usually reserved for subscribers, we’re dropping this one into your feed because… well, you deserve it.

As the seasons change, so apparently must our entire wardrobes. Again. It’s a lot.

In this episode, Mia and Jessie are joined by the glorious Amelia Lester to unpack the pressure to be 'effortlessness'. 

We’re talking:

• The ‘I Woke Up Like This’ lie. Nope, your hair did not do that on its own.

• Why pretending not to try is somehow the most work of all

• How the effortless aesthetic has crept into fashion, parenting, relationships, work… you name it, it's got to be without a hint of trying.

It’s a full-time job to look like you’re not working at anything. And we’re officially over it.

The End Bits

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Don't miss out on your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: This Special Live Show Recording Spilt 10 Years of Tea
• Listen: The Exact Science To Keep On Enjoying Your Job
• Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
• Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
• Listen: I’d Like To Give My Diagnosis Back
• Listen: The Three Rules For Friendship Catch-Ups
• Listen: The "Ick" Of Old Friends & The Most Hated Woman On The Internet
• Listen: "We're Not OK" - The White Lotus Season 3 FinaleSubscribe
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What To Read: 

• Everything you need to know about the Mamamia Out Loud ALL OR NOTHING TOUR coming May 2025
• There's a foolproof way to figure out if you're a gold or silver jewellery girly.
• The 'effortless style' myth is the reason you can't get dressed.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when three Mamamia Out Loud hosts, a live audience, and a very shiny Apple store come together? Chaos. Joyful chaos.

To celebrate 10 years of Mamamia Out Loud (yes, 10!), Mia, Jessie and Holly recorded a special live episode at Apple Sydney — and now, you get to hear it.

From how Holly wheedled her way onto the show, to what really goes into choosing our daily topics, and the moments that have stayed with us the most, it’s all here.

Hosted by our fantastic friend of the pod Amelia Lester and full of behind-the-scenes tea, this is your backstage pass to a decade of strong opinions, respectful disagreements, and... shoe jewellery.

Happy public holiday, Outlouders — this one's a little treat.

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Get your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

What to listen to next: 

• Listen to the latest episode: The Exact Science To Keep On Enjoying Your Job
• Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
• Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
• Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
• Listen: I’d Like To Give My Diagnosis Back
• Listen: The Three Rules For Friendship Catch-Ups
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What To Read: 

• Which Mamamia Out Loud host are you? Holly, Mia or Jessie?

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

CREDITS:

Hosts: Mia Freedman, Jessie Stephens & Holly Wainwright

Group Executive Producer: Ruth Devine

Executive Producer: Emeline Gazilas

Audio Producer: Lu Hill

Video Producer: Josh Green 

Junior Content Producers: Coco Lavigne & Tessa Kotowicz

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

'Not quite right' seems to be the feedback for today. Why have six women gone to space in full glam for *checks notes* 11 minutes, only to return to earth and kiss the ground? Side note, why are Kris Jenner and Khloe Kardashian giving interviews about it? We don't remember this episode of The Simpsons. 

Similarly, why are our politicians dropping diss tracks and is this the new form that election campaigns should take from now on? Can the 2025-2026 budget be released via SoundCloud too?

Finally, given the long weekend, we thought we'd leave you with some bonus reccos as a little treat. Holly Wainwright is joined by Clare Stephens and Em Vernem for a book, a TV show and a building that aren't afraid to take up space. 

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Get your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

Mamamia wants to hear from you! Complete our survey to go in the running to win one of four $50 gift vouchers. 

What to listen to next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
• Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
• Listen: I’d Like To Give My Diagnosis Back
• Listen: The Three Rules For Friendship Catch-Ups
• Listen: The "Ick" Of Old Friends & The Most Hated Woman On The Internet
• Listen: "We're Not OK" - The White Lotus Season 3 FinaleSubscribe
• Listen: The Robert Irwin Undies Theory, Tariffs & 7 Point Dressing
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

The End Bits

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

Recommendations

Em wants you to read How to End a Love Story by Yulin Kuang AND go to the library.

Clare wants you to watch The Pitt on BINGE.

Holly wants you to watch Running Point on Netflix.

What To Read: 

• ICYMI, it's the first girls'-trip to space.
• HOLLY WAINWRIGHT: ‘I desperately needed to find some calm… So I read one very particular book and I got a hobby.’
• While suffering postnatal depression, Tishara took up a hobby. It became a full-time business.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

An ageing Boomer bad boy and a queer 21-year-old multi-millionairess locked in a house together. What could possibly go wrong? Quite a lot actually. Many thoughts. We discuss what happened with Jojo Siwa and Mickey Rourke on Celebrity Big Brother.

Plus, there were lots of cool people in the desert this weekend, paying $20 AUD for a 'super duper' shower. That's right, it's Coachella season. As always, the fashion is arguably the main festival headliner, and hosts Holly Wainwright, friend of the pod Em Vernem and the legend that is Clare Stephens, define the different levels of cool within this influencer world.  

And, relationships. What do the top five percent of them have in common and why is it so horrifying to Em? Group therapy is in session.

The End Bits

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Don't miss out on your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

Mamamia wants to hear from you! Complete our survey to go in the running to win one of four $50 gift vouchers.

What To Listen To Next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: I’d Like To Give My Diagnosis Back
• Listen: The Three Rules For Friendship Catch-Ups
• Listen: The "Ick" Of Old Friends & The Most Hated Woman On The Internet
• Listen: "We're Not OK" - The White Lotus Season 3 Finale
• Listen: The Robert Irwin Undies Theory, Tariffs & 7 Point Dressing
• Listen: Sex Tips (For Married Women Only)
• Listen to MID: Rachel Griffiths Took A Sabbatical From Everything
• Listen to the Spill: A Brutally Honest Review Of The White Lotus Season Three
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

What To Read: 

• Everything you need to know about the Mamamia Out Loud ALL OR NOTHING TOUR coming May 2025
• A helpful guide to all the 'feuds' happening between the White Lotus gang right now.
• After another 'aggressive' incident, Mickey Rourke has left Celebrity Big Brother.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're living in the age of diagnosis. But are we about to enter a new era – one of de–diagnosis, where we can give some of our pathologies back? We discuss a new book that's changing the way we see what's wrong with us.

Plus, we have some recommendations including a rashie (yes, you read that right) and two fabulous new memoirs about an It Girl and a magazine mogul.

And, a Nicole test, a bingle and multiple viewings of a questionable film, plus Jessie's car disaster. It’s Best & Worst. 

Support independent women's media

Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular 

Get your merch for Mamamia Out Loud

What to listen to next: 

• Listen to our latest episode: The Three Rules For Friendship Catch-Ups
• Listen: The "Ick" Of Old Friends & The Most Hated Woman On The Internet
• Listen: "We're Not OK" - The White Lotus Season 3 FinaleSubscribe
• Listen: The Robert Irwin Undies Theory, Tariffs & 7 Point Dressing
• Listen: Sex Tips (For Married Women Only)
• Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts 

The End Bits

Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place. 

Recommendations: 

Jessie wants you to check out Avaly's black rashie.

Holly wants you to read Say Everything: A Memoir By Ione Skye.

Amelia wants you to read When The Going Was Good by Graydon Carter.

What To Read: 

• Read: Men will do anything but go to therapy.
• Read: The Age of Diagnosis by Suzanne O’Sullivan review – do no harm
• Read: 'A nurse told me I had two years to live. Then I found out the truth.'
• Read: Edwina Bartholomew has just spoken about her health journey, 3 months after sharing her diagnosis.

GET IN TOUCH:

Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at [email protected]

Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message

Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.

Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud

CREDITS:

Hosts: Jessie Stephens, Holly Wainwright & Amelia Lester

Group Executive Producer: Ruth Devine

Executive Producer: Emeline Gazilas

Audio Producer: Leah Porges

Video Producer: Josh Green

Junior Content Producers: Coco Lavigne & Tessa Kotowicz

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.