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Are ADHD, autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders overdiagnosed? Is it all in our heads? Is self-diagnosis legit? Isabelle and David take some common stigmas and misperceptions to task and explore how labels and identities can help or hurt, how policing stigma when you're not a member of the group being stigmatized (or asking us what we need), and the huge weight our world puts on external, visible behaviors rather than internal pain, frustrations, and strengths.
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Isabelle references a podcast episode she listened to recently, Armchair Expert with guest Suzanne O’Sullivan on overdiagnosis. She brings up the idea of psychosomatic illness, and the example this epilepsy expert uses is that there are a certain percentage of cases of epilepsy that appear very different on brain scans, that appear to be psychologically caused (or psychosomatic). This is one of those confusing, stigmatized concepts—Isabelle would originally think that this means “made up.” But NO. What it means is that people are still experiencing the symptoms, are still suffering from symptoms of seizures, sometimes way worse than those who on EEGs, etc. appear to have ‘epilepsy.’ It is the opposite of ‘in your head,’ it is very real. The same goes for the placebo effect, which is that when they do studies on medications or treatments, they have people do something neutral or take a sugar pill or a pill with no active ingredients. A percentage of people in every case will see symptom improvement or a positive effect. This does not mean it’s made up, it means the mind is powerful and just because we don’t know how something works doesn’t mean it doesn’t bring relief. And the same goes with nocebo, or the way things can have an adverse or ill effect, too. But now David and Isabelle get to the other idea this author has, about how ADHD and autism and other diagnoses are being ‘over diagnosed,’ because, as the author states, autism used to mean something different than it does now, because now people later in life who are high masking are being diagnosed with it—and the cutoff points for diagnoses are being too muddled, and isn’t it (as the author puts it), “awful that kids will be labelled with these self-fulfilling prophecies” that will create limiting beliefs for them, isn’t it causing harm, can’t we meet kids needs without these labels? And more so, the cut off point should be “disablement.” But wait a minute, isn’t that pre-diabetes? But isn’t it like the biggest predictor of heroin use is milk consumption…because everyone who takes heroin used to drink milk. David wants to come at this. David wants more inclusive education, he doesn’t want smaller and smaller classrooms, and what to have a very diverse set of people in the room. A diverse group of people learning at once. To answer why do we need to label them? Because every person has different needs, we need labels to tailor education to each person. The more standardized it becomes the more it becomes marginalized. Stay in your lane, let people within the culture manage the stigma around the culture. “Can you just include someone from these communities?” A bunch of people talking about us and deciding what’s harming us without talking to us. Isabelle refers back to psychopharmacology and psychopathology class—you gotta learn a ton about diagnostic criteria and learn how to categorize the experiences of people your seeing. Isabelle’s professor was a neuropsychologist and was very into accurate language. You can look at diagnoses from a couple of different angles—why do we diagnosis? We need to have a standardized understanding of a group of experiences, so when we talk about it we all say “this is the part that we mean.” There needs to be some kind of shared consensus around what ADHD means. Cut off points could be true for insurance purposes, political, and financial, and for research and understanding, and it also is not all encompassing—but if you accurately sync a person up to a diagnosis, it gives them an understanding of a person that helps them. Everyone isn’t self-diagnosing. It’s the people who resonate with the experiences of those who are AuDHD or autistic or an ADHDer. David names that he loves the podcast (as does Isabelle, she’s a big archerry) and that the people on this podcast are falling into something society does, not necessarily leading society there, which is validating external manifestations of pain rather than internal frustration. David leans on the work of Marcus Soutra, with the idea that perhaps instead of thinking of things as diagnoses, it's more of an identification. We’re accurately identifying people.  Isabelle further details that they mention that mental health diagnoses go up when mental health awareness is spread. To which she wonders—what about how psychoeducation and awareness allow for people to be more vulnerable and feel safe disclosing what's really going on, internally? The example that ‘doesn’t everyone have a little ADHD’ is—-wrong. Nope, Not everyone. But maybe those who have untreated ADHD do? And with the example of Bill Gates identifying as autistic, and the author naming that she doesn’t see him as having struggles or disability, again, a very external definition—they have no clue about what he has gone through or what it is like to go through life not fully understanding yourself without such an identity. Autism and ADHD is not necessarily a learning difference 

Armchair Expert episode Isabelle is referencing

Suzanne O'Sullivan's book, The Age of Diagnosis

USEFUL DEFINITIONS
Psychosomatic - a word that literally means "mind" and "body" -- where stress or worry make a symptom or condition develop, get worse, or show up in the first place. While common usage means we often think this is saying "it's all in your head,"or that it's not real---it's saying the opposite: it's saying that the mind has such a powerful effect that it can cause real physical pain and suffering and that illnesses and all kinds of conditions can have many different causes. This does not mean what you're experiencing is not real, it means we now understand that stressors and emotions and our minds can connect to a number of health conditions. See here for more (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

Placebo effect - the way a sugar pill or random remedy (used in clinical research trials for a medication, let's say, or a 'fake surgery' in surgical trials, where nothing is implanted or changed) produces symptom relief and improvement as if it were a real pill or real surgically-altering procedure. This means that the person experiences actual change, again, that is not explained by the treatment or pill being studied. We don't fully understand why this is, but we know it's there, and it likely has something to do with a person's expectations of whether something could help them. It has a big impact on research and neuroscience in general. See here for more (Source: NIH 2023)

Nocebo effect - opposite from placebo, where a person's negative expectations play out when given a sugar pill or 'sham' surgery and their symptoms get worse even thought they did not receive any medicine or treatment that would give them side effects. See here for more (Source: NIH 2012).

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cover art by:

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Let's revisit a bunch of neurodivergent folx reminiscing about what it was like growing up (and being diagnosed with) ADHD in the 90's. Featuring some real gems about accommodations for reading, what hyperfocus can feel like, and stuff about Richard Dreyfuss.
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Isabelle & David welcome Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, and David’s childhood friend, Ashley, who both also have ADHD. Ashley shares that she was diagnosed with ADHD back in ’94 when understanding of ADHD was still in its early days and accommodations like audio books and extended time for test taking were new(er). The group describes what reading looks like, including eye tracking issues connected to ADHD—and the levels of accommodations they each use, including highlighters, white noise, audiobooks, etc. One way of handling a breakup is to mouth the words to the song that's playing while you're being dumped. Other accommodations to encourage hyperfocus on reading also include listening to older instrumental music, and matching beats per minute to the task you're doing. The advantages of continuous play on music platforms (like Spotify, not a sponsor) and the rabbit holes you can get lost in. Bobby’s tangent on a gem of a comedy album (see below). The group also discusses other labels that you can gather along the way with ADHD; David was labelled as having behavior problems, skipping class, acting out. Bobby experienced the world as Ferris Buehler and his response to being bullied was to work the system to get the bullies to leave you alone. How impulsivity can help you work the system or leave you hanging. The idea of either not trying to make waves or making waves when none are around. The message David got was that there was something wrong with him. The white privilege of an ADHD diagnosis, as opposed to being labeled oppositional defiant. 

Name of Bobby’s find (click for a link to a youtube video): I Wanna Meet Richard Dreyfuss by Gabriel Gundacker

Eye tracking issues (related to ADHD): Typical issues that can impair reading are related to either impulsively (jumping to a wrong line) or attention issues related to thinking about off topic things while reading. Click here for more.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

IMPOSTER SYNDROME is the belief you don't belong/are bad, or that you have to be perfect on the outside along with the fear you will be found out/exposed and people will know you're a mess on the inside. 

OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT (Disorder, AKA ODD) is a clinical diagnosis that is applied to children marked by intentional acts of disobedience, and conflicts with authority. This diagnosis is much different than a diagnosis of ADHD, although some parts of ADHD can be oppositional in nature, they are not truly rooted in fighting Authority, as much as the rooted in finding agency. For example, a person with ADHD may find themselves fighting an authority figure because they took a candy bar they were eating and want the candy bar back. A person with ODD would fighting the authority figure because they were an authority figure, forgetting about the candy bar.

RESPONSE COST is understanding the consequences of our actions, later down the road.

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuuming.

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So with news articles and headlines about how folks with ADHD need to get off their meds or go outside or be 'cured', there's something of a big misunderstanding and gaps in perspectives on ADHD and what it actually means. Including our shared values as a real ADHD culture, especially around how people or authority figures will relate to us. David and Isabelle describe some of the shared values in neurodivergent or ADHD culture, including ideas around masking, disclosing, lateral thinking, and questioning authority--and whether you believe that others, particularly those in power, will help you or understand you. Exploring many aspects of the neurodivergent community--and how groups form--ADHDers (more likely than the average bear) identify as members of LGBTQ+ communities, members of nontraditional or non-dominant faith groups, entrepreneurs, tech-friendly folx, and members of the military, to start. From recognizing that there are stages and phases to feeling like you can both belong and be unique, to the power of community in developing a sense of self-esteem, the need to have metacognition (or an understanding of WHY a thing is or how it works for you).
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David starts by naming that within a neurodivergent or ADHD culture, there are shared values. And what we believe might be impacted by our approach to masking and our context—did we have to mask a lot? Do we need masking or not? But it also asks us: do we believe that people will help us? That schools will help us? That people with power or systemic power will support us or understand us?  David doesn't think that trust in these systems is high in the ADHD population. A lot of people don’t feel like they can trust the system and it might be why we don’t disclose, we don’t share, we don’t ask. We are a subgroup, but we are not substandard. Lots of wars being waged on ADHD, and that entire perspective ignores the things that are important. Since David joined Eye to Eye years ago and joined the ND community, he watched graduation rates go up, he’d give talks in a room and ask “who has adhd?” And no one would raise their hand. “Does it feel wrong to be asked?” And now when you talk about it in a group, people raise their hands right away. There is the good work. There is a cultural war on ADHD. Isabelle names that one of the strengths of ADHD, which is important to include in any future articles, is that we think ‘creatively,’ also known as lateral or divergent thinking. We don’t necessarily follow a linear thought process and skip around  think laterally or divergently. For her fellow AuDHDers, Isabelle recognizes that she does want clarity and often tries to go back to a linear though process to make sure she’s understanding something clearly. But in general, the lateral thinking—lends itself to questioning authority, taking multiple perspectives, playing devil’s advocate, which doesn’t necessarily mean that people feel comfortable sharing this. There’s a larger percentage of us that identify as queer or LGBTQ+ communities, nonbinary, gender fluid—there’s also a larger percentage of us that its int he military, tech community, entrepreneurs. We tolerate risk differently. David names that this allows us a different way of recognizing our needs. If the rest of the world tells you something should meet your needs but it doesn’t, you’re going to maybe go back to the drawing board and start to think about things a little differently. You may be a more natural out of the box thinker, because of a lack of neural pruning. More doesn’t mean better, and it doesn’t mean worse. It’s not a a hierarchy. Just acknowledging it exists gives people a place to belong. Isabelle describes the stages of building a group—we first debate if we want to join, we norm and create a share a set of values and create a cohesion, and then the strength of the group’s cohesiveness is tested and retested with storming and questioning and then you come to the place where you are both an individual and belong, that both can coexist dynamically. Even in Isabelle’s own process of joining this group of neurodivergence, when she cried at the mailboxes with David, she is feeling this with the autistic side of her, and she’s seeing it everywhere and she deeply wants to belong, and then she’s questioning or noticing the differences, and then she’s cozy in being different and yet belonging. David names how important self esteem is for us; and we can’t really develop self esteem alone, it helps you to see others who get it and can resonate with you. Three most important factors: self esteem, ability to advocate for your needs, and metacognition (understand we do what we do). You shouldn’t have to try so hard to ‘fit into’ a culture, it should be more natural. Isabelle names how metacognition, or changing your operating instructions, gives you a chance to reframe your own history, your present and your plans, and your needs are different than what you realized. Referencing the NYT article about ADHD meds—if you have no concept of what medication is doing for you or connecting with your medication, it's like you’re fueling yourself up with a really good fuel source and you have no direction to put it in. David wants a formalized response to the NYTimes article. A formal round table. 

The strengths of ADHD — see Dr. Holly White's work at the University of Michigan (Scientific American article)

• Divergent or lateral thinking - probably most commonly called "brainstorming," it's when you generate multiple ideas, applications, solutions, problems, and hop around instead of just focusing on one answer--see this interesting guide from the University of Texas at Austin that helps teachers learn how to ENCOURAGE divergent thinking in their students.  
• How divergent thinking is connected to creativity (study)

As well as addressing self esteem and practicing self-advocacy, work with ADHD means developing:

Metacognition — thinking about your thinking, or why you do what you do. It’s like understanding you’ve been handled incorrect or inapplicable instructions. Knowing why you need an accommodation and why it helps. It involves an awareness as well as an ability to regulate/choose a strategy (eg. changing how you study for a particular test). (source: Wikipedia).
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuumin...

Check out the collection of fidgets Team Shiny loves! 

Isabelle and David talk 'stimming'-AKA "Self-stimulating behavior": what is this word, where does it come from, and what does it mean to 'stim'? Perhaps spoken of more in the autism community, stimming applies to ADHD also, and can connect to not just how we use sensory inputs as ballasts or balance systems, but also unique indicators of a ADHD culture of our own. David and Isabelle dig deep with some adorable sneezes, more on the ballast systems of ships, and the tail expressions of animals along the way.
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David and Isabelle describe how cat and dog tails are completely different in indicating their state. David’s cat was so still with just the tip of its tail bobbing back and forth, and David pointed out that that’s how you can tell a cat is happy. Which is the exact opposite of how you can tell a dog is happy, with an exuberantly wagging tail. And maybe this relates a little bit to stimming, in that someone might interpret Isabelle’s bouncing leg as an indication of one internal state, when actually she is stimming and feeling very calm as she does it. There could be two ADHD camps here: one for dogs, one for cats. Perhaps most ADHDers would align with dogs, as in we tend to vibrate when we’re happy. David knows when he’s still and quiet he is very alert and something’s wrong. Isabelle’s dog is currently whining at the door and she is like her dog in that she gives her all her needs and yet she has more needs? Isabelle is curious about internal stimming, like when she ruminates or revisits things in her head to self-stimulated. David talks about this as acting in or acting out, and maybe he’s doing some action, or he’s thinking or connecting with an internal world. Stimming is thought of as an action, that is repetitive or relieving in some way. Acting in and acting out was something David was naming 20 years ago, but now we use the term “stimming” — and it’s doing something to keep your heart rate up. Isabelle did not see it used around ADHD but it does connect, but she sees it a lot around AuDHD — it comes from diagnostic origins, but the function of it is what David describes as exhaust. If his engine is running, there’s going to be something going on somewhere. Slowly picking at a nail, feeling the tension of his pants, something to help him regulate his attention—like a ballast. This sends Isabelle off on a tangent about being a tween going to see “Titanic” because she was into boat architecture after seeing documentaries about the Titanic about the ships ballast getting flooded—the idea that you have these big walls that are designed to bring on some water  in order to balance the ship. Isabelle walks around with Trex arms, and it’s like she is letting some of the world in and that helps her pick what’s coming at her on a sensory level, because she can’t really tune out the rest anyway, it's like taking in some stimulation to stay afloat. David describes how other ballasts could be biting down on leather when getting an amputation. If you give your body something to do it can distract it. While Isabelle isa bout to go on a tangent about pain theory, her dog needs to go outside, and so indeed, behavior is communication. Now David sneezes. And it’s adorable. And he has to fight the reflex to not say “F you” back, because he has sneezed adorably for a long time now and his friend David C. Would always tease him and so he’d respond lovingly with an “F you!” And so he now needs to describe it all. David then segue ways to a definition of culture. Isabelle studied anthropology and archaeology in college, and remembers a professor saying that you know a culture exists when there is an in-group and an out-group and that culture is a set of adaptations to a human’s environment. For example, chimpanzees, they stick a twig in a termite mound and then they eat the termites, and thinking about it archaeologically that a being used a thing to do something that nature did not use it for, so when archaeologists speak of a culture its around distinct patterns of how things were made and the area where people lived in. If we were archaeologists of the future, if we came back to earth, could we notice distinct enough artifacts that would indicate there is some difference in this group? Or we could think of it as a series of adaptations for the environments in which we find ourselves. Referencing the NYTimes article, the parts we can resonate with, ADHD is about so many more things than that. So dysregulating because it’s 70% accurately, you just left out so many important details and experts and points—that thing that pains Isabelle is that this article is so long and takes so much energy to digest and is just an aspect of the book. David points out that it states that medicine has diminishing returns, because OF COURSE it doesn’t mention that medication is intended to be used with therapy and of course the medication doesn’t help you with the self esteem repair or accommodation strategies so in a vacuum you get diminishing returns. Isabelle is so on board and also frustrated that this is coming at a time when the world is extra scary and intense. David names that he thinks we would see signs of ADHD culture--organizing in piles, the sheer volume of fidget spinners, etc. Isabelle agrees, the material culture alone would create an interesting set of indicators that something different is happening in certain households that is unique and also in common with one another.

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Culture (Source: Oxford Language Dictionary): "the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group." OR, "anthropologically, culture is defined as a complex, shared system of learned beliefs, values, behaviors, and symbols that allows a group of people to understand and interact with the world. It's a dynamic, evolving set of practices and ideas that shape a group's identity and way of life" (from sapiens.org)

The notorious NY Times article ("Are we thinking about ADHD all wrong?" by Paul Tough) David and Isabelle are referencing

Chimpanzees eating termites like a lollipop (AKA chimps having a material culture)

Ballast: YES these are compartments designed to be flooded and dispense with water to help balance a ships weight and regulate how buoyant it is in water (how it floats) (see Wikipedia definition of "Ballast Tank" for more) AND

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Isabelle finishes sharing her neuropsych results, including recommendations for ADHD and autism (HINT: unmask! WHAT?) From the categorization of ADHD like a storm warning system (Mild/moderate/severe) to how job interviews might be the one place to mask (and how David does his interviews), David and Isabelle spelunk around how certain measures, like empathy, are not 'markers' of autism in the way we may think.  Share your favorite fidgets with us! Go to somethingshinypodcast.com/fidgetlove now!

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Isabelle goes into greater detail about how her neuropsychological assessment was able to show her how she initiates and sustains auditory and visual attention and a little bit on processing speed. But to get more data, she’d need to undergo testing designed for people with traumatic brain injuries or strokes or dementia—what? It's a little strange to realize that the gold standard for learning more about brain functioning as a grown up with ADHD is the same that’s used for brain injuries.  David points out that he uses the word neurodivergent intentionally, in order to point out that there is a diversity of brains, rather than a deficiency or something wrong with you. There are brains that work well in crisis and brains that work well when things are calm. Doesn’t that make sense? Would we say that someone would be “severely apt” at handling chaos? Maybe, you just do what you’re good at? Isabelle goes back to the scale of mild/moderate/severe ADHD—mild reads as boring, moderate—moderation SUCKS—all the words for the scale are poor. David names: if you can’t use the words to apply to “happiness” —it’s a bad scale for humans. Would you say you are ‘mildly or severely happy?” Probably not. So maybe we use different words for humans. People with ADHD are not storms and do not require storm warnings (last time we checked). As part of her neuropsychological evaluation, Isabelle got pages and pages of recommendations for next steps. She got a lot of great data, and also realized that one episode of Something Shiny provides more—so that was affirming and helpful in terms of the work the podcast and its community are doing. Her evaluator left off her autism recommendations, sending them along later, but said, essentially, the only recommendation is to unmask more. That “the only place masking is helpful is in job interviews.” Other than that it’s harmful. It takes energy, it burns people out, it’s hard. Isabelle then goes on to rant about how biased job interviews are, unless you’re giving case examples—but then, David is also super good at job interviews. He checks—did you go to high school or college? Cool, you must be smart. Then, do you want to work with him? Check. Then, would he want to hang out with this person? Yup. And finally, a bunch of curveballs to see how people think on their feet. Because that helps you see how people think and how they communicate about their problem solving, which is good data. Then David names that there are questions he’d love to ask about people that he can’t, beyond the protected class questions about age or location or self-identity—he wishes he could ask if someone is neurodivergent or if someone in their family is neurodivergent, that is an asset to David. He sees the ability to think outside the box in order to do what they do. But he knows he’s not trusted, most hiring people are lying to you, employers are anxious, you’re not going to like them. Every employer is terrified of rejection, it’s so complicated. But he sees neurodiversity and awareness of that as a major plus—if somebody understands that and has self-esteem around it, knows what accommodations they need, they are curious about that. Isabelle has such a bias for self-insight—she wonders, how someone who was so socially off the rhythm of her peers, how was it that she had a lot of high measures for sensory things, but high measures on empathy? Which seems odd, because all of the autistic people Isabelle knows have off the charts empathy, which David concurs. Like the empathy for the crushed ant on the sidewalk. This is so true for Isabelle, she remembers crying for hours about a three-legged hamster she saw in a pet store named “Tiny Tim”—in retrospect, his paw was probably chewed off by his littermates or his mom because hamsters are ROUGH like that—but her mom told her he was okay because he was “fat”—to be fair, she was fatphobic and Polish immigrant mentality an maybe also autistic herself, but she was so distraught. She used to track one ant walking all the way to its hill to make sure it made it because she felt personally responsible for seeing that it was okay. She was so scared she’d look at it later and wonder if she wasn’t autistic—but the stakes were so high, she was scared of not having the community she felt like she was on the cusp of having and understanding. As David puts it: "we will fight for worth and identity." Even more so, Isabelle learns that her own stereotype about autism meaning she is low empathy (even indicated on the 'measures' of autism on the assessments she took) is where she doesn't 'meet criteria' for autism, and how that would keep her up at night. Until her neuropsychiatrist pointed out: it has more to do with a snapshot of where you are and your accommodations. Of course someone who is in their 40's, has been high masking their whole life, and who special interests in humans AKA psychology would be high on empathy measures--she wasn't like this as a kid but it took decades for her to 'get it.' And what a revelation, that autism and empathy are not what we stereotypically assume they might be!

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DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neur...

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Isabelle and David continue to explore how an official ADHD or autism or AuDHD diagnosis might be a useful bridge to belong to a community. But what about the people who see these labels as pathologizing, including famous ADHD researchers like Dr. Russell Barkely? David and Isabelle explore some of the ways that thinking of ADHD from the negatives only and leaves people using the label not as a tool for empowerment, self-understanding, and advocacy--but as an excuse. Furthermore, what about labels like "Asperger's" (low-support need/high-masking autism) that has its roots in Nazi extermination camps? Neuropsychs Explored Part III.

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The pro to identifying as having ADHD that David now understands, that he didn't understand years ago, was that it allows you to fit into a culture and a group differently. He walked into a room in his 30’s (at an Eye-to-Eye conference) and found himself fitting in. David needed the label to understand himself. He brings up Dr. Russell Barkley and his research—Isabelle jumps in with a factoid about Barkley’s twin who had ADHD and addiction issues and died in a car accident…which helps give her context for why Barkley is so big on ADHD being a risk factor while driving. David wants to make it clear—it is a tragic story, and he’s not about casting anyone as evil or bad—but Barkeley’s work does do a number on people’s self esteem. They look at his research and think they can’t change and they start to use ADHD as an excuse, not an explanation. It’s important to have compassion for people, he does talk a lot about addiction and car crashes, and we all have sad parts of our past, and its what we do now that matters. When he’s talking to a room for non-ADHDers, they tend to think that people with ADHD are less, rather than more. He likes folk music and David likes rap, and David is not going to pretend to like folk music. Isabelle names that she tries to make sense of something so dehumanizing, like the six hour training she sat through of his that left her in tears, gaining some context for his story gave her a chance to reduce how slimed she felt. Knowing why does decrease suffering. Isabelle has seen a lot of hostility and backlash about AuDHD. Autism is a spectrum—yes, there are non speakers and folks with high support needs. But maybe it was what back in the day was called Asperger’s, a now unused term. David names that Dr. Asperger was a Nazi (sympathizer?) Who created a line around autism (essentially how high-masking someone was) that determined who lived and died. For more on this deep history of Asperger — check out the links below. Isabelle and David agree to have a way longer conversation on the history of neurodivergence. Isabelle talks more about her neuropsych assessment, including sample questions, and fill in the blank type sentences to write. And she was given a questionnaire to give to someone who knows her well—for kids, this might be both to caregivers and teachers, so they can get data about how the kid is functioning in multiple environments. Isabelle then waits, gets a twenty-some page document, and they sit down and cover it all. Isabelle has in the months between first hearing the neuropsychologist state that she meets criteria for autism, confirming her suspicions, she went on a deep dive on all these pieces of information. Isabelle felt the fear of having this diagnosis taken away from her felt so deeply. It was so hard, even just listening to the summary, she wanted to skip to the end (another autistic trait, she is learning, wanting to know the context so she can track what’s being described or knowing where it’s going), and she yes, she has autism, and she burst into tears. Isabelle finally has an answer to the riddle, which a chunk of it related to ADHD, but this is another part of the mystery, like she has been looking in funhouse mirrors her whole life, and now she has an accurate reflection of who she is, like a real, non-distorted mirror. She also has “severe” ADHD. David and Isabelle dig in with how negative this criteria is (which, side note, connects to Barkley’s research). Are we weather systems? Are we severely awesome? Maybe we change it to extremely? Gah. 

Asperger’s and the history of neurodivergence 

Articles and books on 

Dr. Russell Barkley 

Known as a big researcher of ADHD, does really good research, and pushes forward a lot of diagnostic criteria and is in a position of power changing the game for a lot of humans. The caveat that Isabelle and David often make is that: he takes a really doom and gloom, pathologizing perspective (which are scary research-based bits of information).  

Asperger’s 

Autism: you have 40% chance of ADHD, and then 

DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neurotypical, hide or minimize their stims, and even pretend they have the same reasons for doing things (like Isabelle saying "yes, I'm antsy" when she's pacing, when really she feels good and grounded when she paces or goes from room to room).

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuuming.

Check out the collection of fidgets Team Shiny loves! 

David and Isabelle go into greater depth about neuropsychological assessments--both back in the day and now-for kids, and for adults--and Isabelle's AHA moment about self-disclosing her AuDHD self. From the odd history of the intersection of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and ADHD (did you know you couldn't be diagnosed with both for a long long time?) to realizing how literally she takes the world and how much it helps to finally have a turn signal on the car that is her, David and Isabelle dive deep into unmasking and the mistrust we have for the world when we are so misunderstood.

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Isabelle likes having her new neuropsychological results because someone who is not her got to tell her that she has autism, and David has a different experience. His story was like three different hours of testing done at school, and it spit out that he was Oppositional Defiant, and then only in college did it notice he had differences in spelling and then ADHD. His experience is watching clients have their kids be flagged by a pediatrician or teacher to be tested and then they want to retest themselves. But David is so scared he’d go in now and learn…he doesn’t have ADHD? And that Isabelle actually understands this, because there was a big gap (of several months) between the interview and the tests. Isabelle goes into further details around how she took her test in a little cubicle. And how for kids, it looks more like play, it involves an IQ test and way more details about processing speed, working memory, visual spatial reasoning, reading, symbols, numbers, etc. to help with understanding learning differences and accommodations. So Isabelle had to sit in a cubicle and stare at a computer and click on a mouse for fifteen minutes and it was awful. When he was a kid, David was pulled from class, he had no idea how long it was going to take, there was a person sitting there who was reading from a book and asking him questions. For kids, a level of buy-in becomes very important, it’s hard to get data when you’re a willing participant. For David, his first neuropsych showed how unwilling he was to participate, because it was something he was forced to do because there was “something wrong” and they were looking for what was wrong. This is not don’t like this anymore. It’s important to talk to someone who has been assessed to see how they liked their assessment. You can get a second opinion. There are people who specialize in different areas of neuropsychological testing. And someone who is great at diagnosing ADHD may not be great at diagnosing autism or vice versa. And up until 7 years ago or so, it was impossible to have both autism and ADHD be a primary diagnosis; which connected to insurance company lobbying when the DSM was being updated, ensuring that the rates of certain conditions wouldn’t skyrocket because that would impact insurance coverage and ability to cover/deny and all kinds of political and social isms. The history of diagnoses and what makes the cutoffs incorporates layers of ableism, racism, sexism, homophobia…all kinds of oppression. David names how important it was an opening when you could have a combined AuDHD diagnosis because it started to mean that these diagnoses of deficiency, and all the stereotypes around all autistics being nonspeakers or having high support needs, started to get busted and it became more encompassing, maybe even of strengths? It’s possible for us to be complex beings, being perceived as having ADHD or autism in another context. We are the keepers of the stigma, it was the ‘last thing we wanted to be.’ The other day, Isabelle’s kid went to the doctor, and she always felt the doctor was annoyed with her for being so literal and asking so many detail-oriented questions. Her kid answered the doctor’s question of “does your throat hurt?” By checking in and saying “No.” And she had a lightbulb flash and realized he was taking the doctor literally. So she tells her kid “You and me, we both take things really literally and answer questions extremely honestly. I think the doctor means when she asks if your throat hurts, she means across the last week or so and not necessarily all the time or right now.” And he answers, “YES!” And she saw the doctor warm up to her kid and to her and she felt the difference, and maybe it was the vulnerability or the disclosure. For David's friend, there was a significant amount of distrust in the world, there was a pattern of miscommunication and people asking you things that they don’t mean, when they learned they were autistic, their last instinct was to tell someone. But when they came back from the dentist, they talked about how much the light was bothering them, they gave me some glasses and made it so much better. David can't make us all believe we are safe, we can feel cared for when we tell people what we need and they respond. Statistically, some of the time, your need won't be missed and until recently, Isabelle didn't know she really needed, she would’ve said words like “anxious” and “please give me more time" 

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuuming.

Check out the collection of fidgets Team Shiny loves! 

Isabelle shares the results of her neuropsych with David: she is AuDHD! As a grown human learning she has AuDHD (ADHD + Autism Spectrum Disorder), what does it mean to 'get a neuropsych?' What even IS a neuropsych? Who gets one and why? How does high-masking autism look like for Isabelle? Busting myths, calling out fun factoids, and celebrating this news and the decrease of suffering it has brought to gain self-understanding and acceptance.
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Isabelle is SO EXCITED to see David's face. Because for the last few recording sessions she hasn’t been able to see his face. And now she can see his face. She doesn’t know she misses it, and David is wagging his tail and doesn’t know if she’s making any sense. The checking for understanding is missing. Isabelle got back her neuropsychological assessment results back. She has “severe” ADHD and also, is high-masking autistic. A fairly common question is: do I need to get a neuropsych? What does it do? David names we can all know something but this is different from the actual experience of it. Are there electrodes to your head? (no) How many magnets are you exposed to? (none) Is there a flowchart?  Isabelle doesn’t know a ton about assessments but she knows a little more now. So, for each job title or profession, you can administer different types of assessments, which involve data from interviews, and written/verbal tests—and a “neuropsychiatric assessment” is conducted by a neuropsychologist, someone who is skilled at administering and interpreting test results as well as being super savvy about neuroscience and the brain. It’s a battery of tests that is designed to help someone determine a psychological diagnosis (and how a diagnosis impacts your thinking, behavior, feelings, functioning, etc.). Isabelle’s experience was, she had used up her deductible and one of her kids as well as her and Bobby decided they wanted to learn more about themselves and get a neuropsych. And she wanted to test it out because she always had a little more mustard on the hot dog of ADHD, more auditory sensory stuff. So Isabelle went in for about an hour long interview and asked me a lot of directive, specific questions. No electrodes, sitting in a cozy office. She was asking questions about friendship, life history type questions about her childhood. With ADHD and Autism, you’re talking about neurodevelopmental conditions, meaning it’s baked in and showing up throughout your life. She was asking a lot of questions about what it was like for Isabelle socially, the years of bullying and taking things very literally, social faux pas, being late to catch on to social subtext or data. And stimming? Which applies to all neurospicy folk. David likens it to a car exhaust—it’s not anxiety, it’s repetitive movements that let out extra steam and overstimulation, when your senses have taking in too much it helps you release. Isabelle thought it was anxiety! But she…actually isn't very anxious. She likes wearing tight clothes and textures, she flaps her hands and holds her hands like a t-rex. She’s realizing how much she would be overloaded after a day, and she would pace, and wiggle her hands, she needs detailed handwriting, and she just wants to be left alone under her weighted blanket. And be crying. She’d say “and I'm overhwlemed because I had a hard day at work!” When for her, she was missing a crucial piece of information. Which is she went to Target, and was under fluorescent lights, and some random stranger talked to her and she didn’t understand it, and then when she said “what?” He looked at her funny, and THAT connected more to the state she found herself in than having a bad day at work. Sitting with uncomfortable feelings and anxiety is different—David names that with anxiety, people can be thought of as fragile, and that can be helpful—but when it’s applied to someone who is neurodiverse, who isn’t fragile, it can be pretty frustrating. David describes how he sits and bounces his leg pretty fast and his whole body will be shaking (best kind!) And David is sitting there stimming, and people turn to him "it's okay, it’s just a doctor's office” and they assume he's anxious, but he’as actually in an ADHD stupor and he’s bored and waiting and feeling good. So much of how people are perceived has a significant element of judgment. Over and over again because she's sitting still or pacing or rocking on her feet—they read Isabelle as impatient or angry, blew her mind. When you see her rocking back and forth and expressionless she's super happy and chill, but you take it as a signal she needs to mask and explain and do things to signal she’s happy and sometimes she doesn’t understand it herself so she just says “yes, I am angry.” And she thought she was a liar—because she’d be dishonest, she’d agree with someone else and say “yeah, I’m antsy.” Even if she wasn’t. David points out that that’s not lying, that’s masking. David speaks to how complicated lying is in neurodiversity, because friends will say “I’ll see you tomorrow night" but then there’s an Impulsive moment and it doesn't happen. How integrity can be perceived, and what you want to own about ourselves. Going back to the assessment process, she had a student in a room and Isabelle likes this because (she’s realizing) it helps her play the eye contact game. David describes the hack of looking at people between their eyebrows instead of in their eyes. Isabelle owns that for her, not for every neurons-icy or otherwise human, she feels like she's gazing into a person’s soul when she makes direct eye contact. It feels rude to her to look at her eyes without a closer emotional bond and without consent, and she looks a bit higher and eyebrows give her data and when she's looking at someone's eyes its too much. David shares: it’s ten times more stimulating to look someone in the eye (10 times more neurons fire). WHAT?! yes. Isabelle is sobbing and confused saying “am I crazy? Am I making up that I am on the spectrum for some weird reason?” She was also listening to see if getting a neuropsych is worthwhile for her (for school or work accommodations)? ADHD was so obvious to Isabelle, but this was causing her distress: the idea and theme in her life of being the last to know something obvious. Increased understanding reduces suffering—what are choices? What are your needs? So much about what shouldn’t or should? What parts of things can you embrace v. ‘Toughing it out.’ Isabelle was in there after an hour and some change. Bobby also went in for a half hour and came out and got resources on ADHD and doesn't seem like he'd get a lot out of a neuropsych and if so, it’s not causing any pain, and maybe you already know what you know and you don’t go through this? Side note, this is not a prerequisite for self-diagnosis. This is a systemic hurtle, it can help you understand the world around you or help you get accommodations around specific areas of work, v. Being in school. But bear in mind, it’s not just for kids.

Eye contact being more stimulating than not in general --in short, it connects to nervous system arousal (even brings in the fight/flight system) as well as dopamine loads and social conventions (like reciprocal communication) but in short, this study sums up a bunch of studies across time that show how eye contact is perceived and impacts nervous systems. (Source: Frontiers in Psychology)

Why eye contact may be EXTRA overstimulating for autistic individual...

Check out the collection of fidgets Team Shiny loves! 

Isabelle and David welcome back Marcus Soutra, co-founder of Eye to Eye and founder of For the Good Consulting, and explore the nature of authenticity, "coolness" and the meaning of masking with nation-wide advocacy expert and fellow ADHD and LD-er. How did being "cool" go from being rich and unaffected to being authentic and open about ND/LD identities? From the loneliness and high masking rates of ADHDers, to Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts and social media, the ways ND culture has approached masking and unmasking.

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Isabelle talks about how being wealthy and affording the performance/clothes of ‘coolness’ growing up was Abercrombie & Fitch back in her high school days--these were expensive clothes that you had to get at the mall and were part of the performance of being 'cool.' And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform and be high masking, for her. There is a coolness factor, the kid who can pick up what’s cool has an advantage over the kid who doesn’t. Marcus sums it up: are you able to fit in and be embraced by the neurotypical world? And if you can’t, there’s the loner path, the bully path? The empathy he has for the bully path—they were, in his past, the LD/ND kids who were dealing with loneliness and not masking well and it was their way of finding their way to a role in the school community. 60% of people with ADHD say they mask on regular basis and 33% say there is a loneliness to the experience of having ADHD. Then there’s also the pain of being high-masking or being accepted by the neurotypical world, how little practice you have at sitting with who you really are, and finding a stable sense of self. There is a way to be a self to fit in that is not the same as an authentic, self-confident knowing-who-you-are self. The difference between doing it in a healthy way v. doing it in a way to survive. Hard to know what parts of you are okay, and when you’re blending into a neurotypical world, there’s a significant advantage of being able to read the rooms around social cues. Marginalized senses of self are real, having to exist believing you’re less than. Or believing if the mask ever falls, it’s terrifying. Isabelle names that there’s a management around masking and the layers, like she can unmask and say “I have ADHD!” but she doesn’t say, “I have ADHD and I screwed up the finances again so I can’t afford the school bill.” Something for her connects coolness to unaffectedness, not being vulnerable, or not caring what others think. Beyond the unique person who owns where they are, where does coolness come from in our culture? Marcus responds that it's often the people at the top of the social hierarchy, it’s the celebrities, the role models.  Growing up for Marcus, there were the most attractive movie stars who were dyslexia, like Tom Cruise, Orlando Bloom, not Paul Giamatti. When it came to Aspergers (previous name for low support need Autism, check out more in depth on this history below) or Autism (before it was known as Autism Spectrum Disorder or ASD) were superheroes, like RainMan, Temple Grandin, and that was our introduction to the autism community. If you’re dyslexic, the way to make it out is to have hotness or have superhero qualities, and if you don’t fit into either one of those, good luck. This brings up how celebrities are not so far removed anymore, from the days that you got these bland PR stories or tabloids, now you have people sharing their stories and unmasking on social media. Marcus names that authenticity is now a part of social media, and it’s important for celebrities to have a cause, to be speaking to some aspect of this. If we'recynical, it could be a branding strategy, or it could be a shift in culture, because this emphasis on authenticity rather than hiding has been a big change in the last five years. 

What is Abercrombie & Fitch? The following documentary covers it pretty much:

"White Hot: The Rise and Fall of Abercrombie and Fitch" (Netflix documentary)

DEFINITIONS:
Masking: Often used in referenced to autistic folx (Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)), it also applies to folx with ADHD, OCD, and all kinds of neurodivergence (ND) and learning differences (LD), like dyslexia, dycalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, etc. It’s the idea that you have to wear a neurotypical "mask" to be accepted or to engage in a world made for those that are neurotypical. You 'pretend' as if you brain and nervous system work in ways they don't. It can be (and feel like) a matter of survival. 

From a great article on the topic:

“For many neurodivergent people, masking is a survival tool for engaging in neurotypical societies and organizations. Masking (also called camouflaging) is the artificial performance of social behaviors deemed more “socially acceptable” in a neurotypical culture.”

For more on Marcus Soutra:

www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuuming.

Check out the collection of fidgets Team Shiny loves! 

Isabelle and David welcome back Marcus Soutra, co-founder of Eye to Eye and founder of For the Good Consulting, and ask an interesting question of this nation-wide advocacy expert and fellow ADHD and LD-er: how has life in schools changed for neurodivergent kids, especially now that some of us are parents/educators/in charge? Are kids still afraid, as David was, of having to go to the nurses' office? And how has what's "cool" been redefined in the past decades? From trauma modes to collared shirts, from shifting ADHD from a diagnosis to an identity, the three explore perspectives on masking (AKA using energy to appear as neurotypical), which can be both a poison and a salve.

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David wonders, given that Marcus travels across the continental United States…what is he seeing as patterns in neurodivergent culture? Marcus describes that he sees the elder millennials having kids who are now being identified as being neurodivergent, and naming, “The trauma ends with me,” and they’re refusing to hand this off to the next generation, and because a generation that grew up with these labels are now turning into parents, school leaders, caregivers, people in charge. David likens this to growing up in an earlier generation where he was taught to toughen up, to take the knocks and handle it. Isabelle relates this to how when you’re living in survival mode, you can’t also be processing the trauma and making meaning of it, you first have to survive—and part of survival mode is to have tunnel vision, to stay tough, to not pause to feel. So it would make sense for a generation that maybe always was in survival mode to try to pass that on to their kids in the form of “toughen up.” She relates to wanting to break this cycle, though, so hard, as a parent. And also—what does David mean by the “boy named Sue” generation? (Answer: it’s a reference to a Johnny Cash song, see below). Marcus describes how this compares to other movements, where something that used to be a diagnosis or label is then taken back as an identity. As he has ADHD, he was hoping this change would happen so much faster, in his small, privileged ND community this change happened so rapidly. It does take these generational shifts and changes to make these things stick. David names that individually, we all have individual struggles that rub up against the system. It felt like school was meant to take parts of us away, it was like an eraser trying to shave parts off. But we are be keepers of that. In school there was no concept of advocating for an accommodation, it was just: do you want to look weird? Leaving class early to go get his meds. How has this changed for kids and adults? It’s hard to generalize because “you know one neurodivergent person, you know one neurodivergent person.” But having an open conversation about something and talk about it and acknowledge and not other it—it does set it up for students to have a teacher they can talk to and ask for what they need (even one adult in that building). The needle has moved from the average high schooler even knowing what dyslexia/ADHD/any ND or LD is. Marcus wasn’t bummed out about dyslexic, but back in high school, it was other people were going to see him being different. He refused to get accommodations for the third time, because if he got accommodations for it, he wouldn’t take the SAT at the same time. Isabelle remembers that as a full body memory, taking the SAT being a production back in the day and even in her own experience being bussed on the short bus into a different school for a Gifted program and how it signaled you were different but also you didn’t want to belong to this select tribe, either.  David names: different is dangerous in some ways, not just for kids but for adults, too. You walk into a room and everyone is wearing a blue “I’m here for a reason” shirt and you might slowly back out of the room and go “I don’t belong.” Trying to be like everyone else is both the salve and the poison—it helps keep us save when we’re masking—what does everyone else is doing? It helps us mask, but David’s first time being a room where people admitted they were neurodivergent, Grady was bouncing a racket ball, the relief and joy you feel when you can join in being more authentically yourself. Isabelle is thinking of the “Cool Bean” book (see below) and how in that story, the beans are ‘cool’ not just because they are performing as cool and have style and whatnot, but also because they are willing to take risks and help those who are being bullied or laughed at, that are able to stand up for others and themselves in a way. This is so different than ‘coolness’ as Isabelle experienced it in her little bubble growing up in suburban Chicago, where coolness felt way more about avoiding being targeting and felt meaner and scarier and more about social power and wielding it (with meanness). Marcus names how his masking helped him in a way; he didn’t know if he could get away with getting into trouble so he would know how to appear wearing a collared shirt and combed hair and befriend his teachers so that he would get on their good side. David describes how with ‘coolness,’ it could be more about performing as if, rather than actually being it—like Marcus wasn’t actually friends with his teachers but he had the appearance of it, and how often we take those appearances of coolness and roll with it. Isabelle wonders—what about the privilege of masking? Like the way people who mask more easily and slot into neurotypical expectations have privileges and also—‘detecting’ what’s cool? And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform as if you are confident in who you are, 

Johnny Cash’s “Boy Named Sue” (live at San Quentin, 1969)

Cool Beans book (by Jory John) read aloud (by Harper Kids)

Smart Cookie (also by Jory John) read aloud (by Magical Little Minds) about learning differences/neurospicyness according to Isabelle

More on Marcus Soutra:
www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards