Managing our emotional expressions is critical to effective communication. Emotions researcher Tatiana Astray helps us optimize our relationships and negotiation outcomes by taking responsibility for our emotional expressions. Learn about the difference between feelings and emotions, why we should express enthusiasm, how to manage negative emotions, and all about the positivity ratio.

Tatiana Astray – emotions & negotiation expert

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Tatiana, for joining us here today to talk about emotions.

Tatiana Astray: Well, it’s a pleasure to be here. I’m really excited.

AW: I thought the best place to start would be with definitions. Can you share with me and the listeners – What is the definition of an emotion?

TA: I actually love to start a class asking people to reflect on what they think emotions mean. Most of the time, people conflate feelings with emotions, but they’re actually very specific things. So emotions are a physiological reaction. It is an action tendency, and it has a subjective experience. It’s usually high intensity, short in duration. And it’s always directed towards an object or person or an event. Now, this is important because what this means is it’s prepping the body for something and there is no such thing as you’re just having emotions out of nowhere. They’re always related to something. So anytime you’re feeling something, but you don’t know what ,that’s usually a good sign to pause and figure out like, what is triggering them? That’s a sign for you.

AW: Yeah, the word that came to mind when you were describing that was trigger, right?

TA: Yes. triggered this emotion or you get triggered. Absolutely. That is an emotion. Versus some people have – oh, they’re just a feeling. They’re subjective experiences. But this definition is important because it shows us that it’s a body component, it’s trying to prepare your body for a specific action. So for example, anger is about boundaries. And so if you allow yourself to express anger, that’s you learning to put up a wall where you need to.

AW:  Right.

TA:  If you suppress the anger in that moment, you basically violate your boundary and you allow people to continue doing the things that you don’t want. And I will say, two other important distinctions with emotions is that there’s intrapersonal effects (so how the way I feel impacts what I’m doing, the way I’m acting) and interpersonal effects, which is the way that my emotions are expressed, the way it impacts us specifically. And at that level, emotions become this like body dance where they help people to coordinate behavior, and they help to maintain and deepen relationships, and that that’s really my area of expertise.

AW: So would you say that the intrapersonal feeling is still part of the emotion just before it gets expressed?

TA: Absolutely.

AW: Okay.

TA: Absolutely. So if you think about it in stages, when you’re feeling an emotion that’s giving you a little bit of information of what’s happening inside of you, it’s telling you a piece of information about the person in front of you. And then the way you express it, you know, you can either express it in a way that kind of helps the relationship or hinders the relationship. And that’s really where like, when people say emotional intelligence, that’s really what they’re talking about your ability to effectively express what you’re feeling in a way that benefits the relationship in the situation.

TA: AW: I love that. I think you’re going to get quoted on that one. Because I’m a visual learner. I’m imagining, as you’re describing this and defining this, that there’s almost like a decision tree or at least a flowchart where there is, as you said, some sort of trigger. It could be a person or a thing or an event, whatever it is, right? And then an interpretation by the person, is there something like that, that you can share that has stages?

TA: First of all, our attention picks things up. So depending on how we’re feeling, what we’re focused on, it’s to pick up specific cues. Then you know, someone will say something. And if you’re in a good mood, you actually interpreted it in a slightly more positive way, then you give it a cognitive meaning. The meaning is, oh, you care about me, you’re having a good time… great. And then there’s your response, which might be the smile, right? Now, let’s say you’re in a bad mood, then I see your smile. I’m not sure what that means. My cognitive meaning might be like, Oh, she’s faking it. She’s not really being genuine. And then my response might be that suppression in that like suspicion. So it’s a multi-stage process. It’s super complex, because it’s related to what you’re feeling, what you’re expressing, which we never actually know. In my research, I have found that the correlation between what you think you’re expressing what you’re actually expressing, not significant, zero correlation.

AW: That’s scary.

TA: But the way I code you expressing back to me is really what’s going to define how I respond to you. When you break these things down. And when you understand what you should be expressing. It allows you to actually signal the things, that you need to make sure that you understand the other person and to give the actual body cues that deepen relationships and bring them together.

AW: And some of that could be implicit, probably more likely implicit, but it could also be explicit, right?

TA: Yeah, it’s a very complicated dance of both. It’s a very complicated dance of both, is what I’m going to say.

AW: Yeah, you were talking about how the part that is statistically valid is when you’re interpreting what the other person is…

TA: Absolutely, absolutely. So for example, in the data, but it’s basically the way I code your behavior is what predicts what I’m taking out of the situation and whether or not I’m enjoying it, whether or not I’m going to give you something in a negotiation. Do I want to continue working with you? So if you think about the implication of that, it’s people are responding to the way you’re acting (the way you are physically acting) not the way you think you’re acting,

AW: right. So certainly not what you’re thinking,

TA: Never what you’re thinking! It’s what you’re expressing. Absolutely. And so like when that light bulb goes off, then you realize like you have to become very aware of what you’re doing because your intentions mean diddly squat in your interactions with people. It’s what you’re actually expressing that matters.

AW: Can you tell us a little bit about your dissertation research and maybe some other research papers that you’re working on?

TA: Sure. So my entire research agenda, I would summarize in one sentence, which is: “ It pays to be pro social.”

AW:  to be pro social?

TA: Yes. So I want to create the research that shows that being a nice, kind, cooperative, trustworthy person gets you more in your work interaction. So that the core of everything I want to do.

AW: is that based on a hypothesis, or based on research that you’ve done?

TA: So it’s actually based on a few things. I’ve read things, I’ve seen my basic ideas to combat this idea that we have to be selfish to win in the corporate ladder. I don’t think that’s very helpful, because selfish people end up being taken down by others. People don’t trust them. They don’t want to work with them. And so there’s this discrepancy between what we’re told works in society and what actually does. We’re social creatures. And so if you know how to play with others, you’re going to succeed in the workplace. My dissertation specifically looks at what is an effective, productive working relationship, and how that impacts negotiation behaviors and negotiation outcomes to really correlate that at the individual and interpersonal level. And then some other research, I have looked at the role of collective emotional expressions and how that impacts negotiation behaviors, negotiation outcomes, and again, that desire to work together again.

AW: So let’s get into that with negotiations. Is your research showing that negative emotions are bad or have a bad outcome in negotiations?

TA: So in any interaction, you’re going to have a multitude of emotional expressions. You’re going to have anger, happiness, a little bit of validation enthusiasm. You might have a bit of sadness, and it’s not about expressing any one specific quote unquote, negative emotion. It’s about the overall emotional tone of the interaction,.

AW: okay

TA: How it’s going back and forth, and can you limit particularly negative emotional expressions. So in a negotiation context, my research shows that maybe you’re engaging in threats? Are you whining? Are you actually showing fear?

AW: Have you mapped some of these behaviors to –it wouldn’t be to what people think they’re expressing is– to what people are interpreting?

TA: Absolutely. So I get people to do negotiation simulations with people they don’t know. I asked them to tell me the cues of what is happening in the interaction, I don’t tell them the emotional label, because a lot of the times people don’t really know what anger or contempt looks like, I just give them the cues. And then I also capture a bunch of outcome variables, like were you satisfied with the interaction? Do you want to have a relationship with the person? What were your deal outcomes? And then I basically map the emotional expressions at the dyadic level to what actually happened in that dyad, and does that dyad want to continue working together? And I can tell you some preliminary findings, emotional expressions are highly predictive of people’s desire to work together.

AW: Well, that’s a good thing, right?

TA: Yeah, it is. And it’s very exciting because I got to show from a research perspective, that one: You don’t need to hide your emotional expressions. That actually hinder people’s desire to work with you. And I show people the actual specific cues to make people want to work with you again.

AW: Ah.

TA: So what do you think the number one emotional expression is to make people want to work with you again?

AW: Number one? Smile?

TA: enthusiasm.

AW: Oh, right. Oh, sorry. I thought you meant the behavior.

TA: Yeah, but actually, so a smile is part of that. But enthusiasm is a little bit more than just a smile. It’s literally saying, I am so excited to be here and work with you. And to really let yourself express that emotion can make such a huge difference for people.

AW: I have to say, I’m so happy to hear that because people have described me as very enthusiastic.

TA: You know what’s funny, since learning this, I’ve learned to be more enthusiastic, especially when I meet people and use that word in my email. So one of the first things I’ll do is I’m so excited to hear from you.

AW: That’s a great hack for the listeners.

TA: Yes.

AW: So if you want someone to interpret it, write it.

TA: Exactly. Exactly. So one of the things through email that I found is that because it’s so devoid of emotional information, people don’t really know where they stand with you. But the problem is in the absence of information, because we have a negativity bias, people aren’t going to interpret that as you’re not being interested. So it’s exceptionally important to put those really few emotional positive cues. Just to make a person feel safe in the interaction to know that like, yeah, you are engaged, and you do you want to interact with this person.

AW: Okay, so there’s so many things there to unpack. And I just wrote like four things down.

TA: Wonderful.

AW: So we have a negativity bias.

TA: Yes.

AW: And would you say, or is there research that shows that maybe that’s why enthusiasm is so important, because it’s conquering that negativity bias?

TA: So part of it comes from an evolutionary standpoint. So when you meet someone new, you have no idea if they’re a friend or foe.

AW: So you’re, I get it, so you have your defenses up.

TA: Exactly. Exactly right. Because it’s much better to be safe than sorry, because it’s better to survive than die. It’s evolutionarily built in all of us. Now, there are some people that are naturally just predisposed to be a little bit more trusting, a little bit more expressive. And there are a lot of people that are kind of resistant, I’m going to call them matchers. So they kind of wait to see the first emotional key from someone. Now, depending on what kind of person you are, if you don’t realize that people are being a little hesitant, people are going to read that hesitation as you’re not a trustworthy person. So that first cue just to be enthusiastic basically shows like, Hi, I’m here, I’m a friend, and I’m excited to be with you. I promise you, once you start kind of using this key, you’re going to realize that people open up a lot quicker.

AW: So it’s almost like there’s nothing to lose by communicating enthusiasm. And furthermore, it accelerates the relationship or at least your understanding of the other person.

TA: Absolutely.

AW: Okay. So then the other thing I wanted to ask you, what do you think about emojis?

TA: I think they’re great in the sense that they can add a little bit of a friendly tone. I don’t necessarily think they’re professional. So with your work colleagues, if you have a more personal relationship, sure. If you do not know the person, I don’t advise that. I’ve read research to suggest it. It feels unprofessional.

AW: Yeah, I think it depends on the age to it. I’ve read a little bit of research on that too. And there’s different cohorts or generations of people that will interpret different punctuation. Never mind, emojis. Yeah, my rule is I wouldn’t be putting emojis in emails where, you know, I’m, for example, giving a proposal to do a training program at a company. But if it’s a little bit of a closer relationship, especially if I’m concerned that something might be misinterpreted. Yeah, I would put the emoji in.

TA: Yeah, I agree. And another good place to put it is when someone sends it to you. You need to match to let them know that it’s safe in this relationship to express that so anytime someone sends me a smiley face all send them a nice message back with that smiley face as well, just to say we are on the same page and like you don’t have to worry to be misinterpreted.

AW: So mirroring the style of communication.

TA: Yes, that’s very important. There’s lots of research to suggest that mirroring is one way that we feel safe in relationships.

AW: So you started to answer this question previously, but I just want to ask you specifically: can expressing emotions, even the negative ones, signal that we feel open and close with someone?

TA: Yes. Okay. Three other social functions of emotional expressions at the interpersonal level is to know intentions. It’s to evoke complimentary behaviors and to reinforce behaviors, okay?

AW: Okay.

TA: In a relationship, these things are very important. Now, when we think about anger, anger is basically saying, look, I have a boundary, it’s quote unquote, a negative emotion. But it actually serves a very important relationship role because you’re teaching someone your limits, and you’re teaching them to treat you nicely. If you express that in a direct, assertive way, and the person responds, you actually strengthen the relationship because now they know you better now you’ve reinforced that behavior, even sadness, for example, we have sadness to elicit someone to take care of us. Expressing sadness is great, especially if it’s met by caretaking. So these negative emotions are great in relationships, they strengthen our bonds. But there’s a whole class of other emotional expressions such as threats or engaging in criticism or defensiveness or stonewalling and all of those are very detrimental.

AW: So thinking of a Negotiations context, what are the emotions that are critical, either positive or negative in terms of their effect on negotiation outcomes?

TA: So actually, let me go back to this idea of sadness. One-way sadness is bad. Two Way sadness is great. Basically saying, I’m so sorry, I can’t make this deal. But I want to work with you preserves that negotiation. If it’s matched back. So it’s both people saying, I’m sorry, this time doesn’t work. Again, it’s that dance. It’s not a one way expression. It is the dance at the interpersonal level. Threats are very bad in negotiation. So anytime you say something like, if you do this, I’m walking away.

AW:  If- then statements, right?

TA: Exactly. If-then is very bad, anytime you are defensive in a negotiation. So if someone tells you what their needs are, and you basically say, Yeah, well, I have these other needs, and you don’t speak to their concern… Very bad. And again, whining and fear.

AW: So what is the emotion that whining is communicating?

TA: Think it’s almost like trying to elicit manipulation from someone.

AW: Ah, right.

TA: Because it’s like, why don’t you give me something?

AW: Manipulation. You’re right. It is it’s almost like inducing guilt in someone.

TA: Like why don’t you give me more? This is so unfair. It’s not a way to have an assertive conversation – a proper one with clear channels.

AW: Yeah. So to all the listeners out there who tell their kids not to whine, you can tell them that there’s research that demonstrate is not effective in negotiations.

TA: Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. But let me also speak to the positive emotions, because negative emotions will decrease someone’s desire to work with you and give you concessions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to make people want to work with you again. For that we need positive emotions. So what does that look like? Again, number one enthusiasm, which is like why I’m preaching it now. Enthusiasm is very important. Another one that’s very important is validation. So basically showing that you understand someone’s perspective, even if you don’t agree with it.

AW: Right.

TA: And I think that makes people feel better because it doesn’t mean you have to completely give in to a person’s demand, but it has to be something like, Hey I understand why you want that position. I would want that to. Unfortunately these are my limits.

AW: Yeah, I feel like I’ve heard and read that consistently with a lot of the EQ stuff, right? It’s demonstrating you’ve heard something, you understand it, and you’re validating it, but you’re not saying you agree with it.

TA: Absolutely. Another very important one is expressing interest. So what that means is allowing your body to lean in nod, go where I am right now. And also asking more questions and paraphrasing what the person said. So all of that basically says that you are listening to the person and you’re interested in finding out more.

AW: Makes sense,

TA: Yeah, it sounds so obvious, but for some reason, in our culture, we don’t talk about that. And the last tip, I want to kind of give I’m going to leave you with this idea of the positivity ratio. So whenever you’re interacting with someone, you want to always check for the overall tone. It’s fine to express a bit of sadness and anger, that that can’t be the only emotion you’re expressing, you know. So in my research, what it looks like is that it’s best to express about three positive emotions to one negative in a negotiation context or minimize the negative as much as you can. That’s a great tool just to like sit there and say, Okay, what is the general tone? Did I acknowledge that? You know, did this person feel validated? Did I show them I’m interested? And if so then yeah, then express a bit of sadness and express a bit of anger. Like, that’s completely fine.

AW: So keep it real, but keep it positive.

TA: Yes, that’s a really great quote, keep it real and keep it positive. I’m going to be using that.

AW: We’re going to be quoting each other. I love it. So can you share an example maybe that you’ve used to illustrate this when you’re doing corporate training? Or maybe even in one of your academic papers where this might be relevant to a personal context?

TA: Okay, wonderful. One of the ways I actually start this is, did you know we could predict divorce with a 94% accuracy?

AW: oopfh.

TA: Basically, there’s this great researcher called John Gottman. And back in the 70s. He used to put couples in this hotel room and videotape them having everyday discussions and conflict discussions. And what he found is by coding the emotional effects of these interactions, he could predict short term and long term divorce with 94% accuracy. So let me tell you the tip to know whether or not you should be scared. Now there’s a curvilinear relationship and it’s meant in a specific point. So the relationships that stay together have five positive to one negative emotional expression.

AW: Okay, where you were talking about three to one, he said, He’s saying five.

TA: Five to one in personal relationships with the absence of criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. So those are very particular negative ones that will result in a divorce. Now too much positive and no negative predicts long term divorce because you’re not discussing the things that matter.

AW: Right.

TA: And too much negative emotions actually predicts early divorce because, of course, who wants to be in an interaction that’s unpleasant?  What’s actually very interesting is this concept of the positivity ratio has also been used to look at exec teams and how they perform during strategic planning. So what they did was they got execs to talk about a strategic annual plan and they divided the teams based on their performance. So how profitable they were, customer satisfaction, and 360 degree performance. And they coded what was said based on praise to criticism. And so what’s cool again, we find the highest performing teams had a 5.6 positive to one negative verbal expression. And the lowest performing teams had almost like a one to one ratio. So again, consistently, what the research is starting to say is that you have to express positive emotions. And it has to be in this context where the negative ones have to be present, but the positive ones have to outweigh it.

AW: Yeah, that’s that’s a great tip. I guess it’s a great goal.

TA: It is a great goal. And what’s wonderful is if you know this number, honestly, anytime you’re on the phone with someone, have a little tally card and just literally count up how many positive emotions have you expressed.

AW:  Do you do that?

TA: I train my students to do it. I haven’t personally done it only because I’ve gotten used to being very positive.

AW: You’re telling the brain anyway…

TA:  I am. I always start off every interaction – I have to throw in those positive emotions just so it can buffer everything else.

AW: Well, that’s another tip, start out with the enthusiasm, but then add a few more to buffer the positive interpretation.

TA: Because the thing is, you know, in relationships, people are willing to have those difficult discussions. They’re willing to hear you out. They’re willing to hold a container for you being frustrated and positive, if they know you care about them.

AW: Mm hmm.

TA: Those enthusiastic cues upfront basically say, Hey, I’m here and I want to interact with you and let’s engage. Let’s problem solve. Let’s get creative.

AW: Right. So I want to ask you this question, which is: when I’m feeling a negative emotion, so interpersonally I am feeling Yes, angry or I’m feeling rage, or I’m feeling jealousy or in a negotiation context. Maybe I’m feeling threatened, right? And I want to not communicate that emotion. Do you have any tips for how to regulate that emotion?

TA: Okay, one of the things I want to say is you should never suppress your emotions, which means if you feel bad, you’re going to try ignoring that you feel bad and push it down, try to tell yourself I don’t feel bad, I don’t feel bad. That’s not going to help, actually what’s going to happen is your blood pressure’s going to go up, your heart rates going to go up. It’s exceptionally unhealthy from a physiological perspective, eventually it’s bad for subjective well-being. There are huge studies to say that suppressing emotions is very bad. From a physiological perspective…

AW: what we hear, in our culture is: don’t keep it all bottled up. Yes, but I’m talking about tactically in a specific situation where, you know, it’s an intense negotiation, let’s just say for the sake of illustration, and I can’t let the person know that I feel so threatened.

TA: And I would say there are certain situations where you wouldn’t want that to happen, especially when someone has more power over you.

AW: Exactly.

TA: Research shows, if you express anger, even if you justly should feel angry, that person will hold it against you and punish you in some way later. So you don’t want to do that. You feel bad. This is a reality. This is a strong physiological reaction. It’s calling your body to do something, but you can’t express it in that moment. What do you do? You go to the bathroom. This is actually what I suggest or ask to take a formal break or say you need a bit of a break and you’ll come back to it in the morning. You have to give your body time to wash that out. Okay? So generally the hormones related to anger have a half-life that rounds out to about 13 minutes.

AW: I thought you were going to say a lot longer than that.

TA:  No, no, it’s a lot shorter. So for example, if you’re ever in a business situation or personal situation, and it’s way too intense, take a 20 minute break and come back to the conversation. If you’re managing someone, let’s say a performance review and they’re getting excessively frazzled. Say you have to take a call and give them 20 minutes and come back to it. Some of the other things you can do is engage in breathing techniques, because that activates your parasympathetic nerve that calms your body down and it tells you that you’re in a safe space. So there’s a few breathing techniques that I always recommend. The first is box breathing, which is so four seconds in, you hold for four seconds, you exhale for four seconds, and you hold it for four seconds and you repeat that for about a few minutes. That’s something that the Navy SEALs do in their own training. You can also engage in deep belly breathing, which is basically putting your arm on your stomach and your chest and making sure you’re breathing from your abdomen and not your chest.

AW: Right. So it’s shallow breathing through your chest, right and deep breathing through your belly.

TA: Exactly. So as you’re giving your body those cues, that’s what allows you to kind of bring yourself down. Another quick thing I will say, which is really fun, from an evolutionary perspective. When you are angry, you do not think rationally. There’s polyvagal theory, when a person stressed and angry, there’s something in the ears that modulate to low tone frequencies, because what they’re looking for is predators. Literally, when you’re very upset, you can’t hear what the person in front of you is saying because your body is in a state of stress, which I think is phenomenal.

AW: It also phenomenal to know.

TA: It’s phenomenal to know. But it’s amazing because it basically means the moment you’re in that space, you’re not having a rational conversation, so you have to take yourself out. Another thing I will say is if you are triggered, and it doesn’t seem to equate to the external stimulus effect example if someone says something and you take it way more personally than you should, which happens even in a negotiation, because you might think like, oh, that person is trying to take advantage of me or you get really angry about something, there is a good chance that you have some unresolved trauma that you need to work through.

AW: The reason do you mean something unrelated, completely unrelated, right?

TA: Actually, in my teaching, I see that a lot, interestingly enough, right? So people come in, and they’re very upset about a situation or they feel like they can’t trust, or someone took advantage of them. But if you break down what’s happening, it’s unresolved trauma, and that moment is going to keep triggering them until they sit down, they process it and they figure out what’s happening.

AW: Okay, I keep thinking of in psychology, just attribution theory into what are we attributing people’s behavior? And it could we can now just kind of take that idea and say to what am I attributing my feelings? And if it’s out of proportion, there’s got to be something else going on?

TA: Yeah, and a lot of the time we take for granted what we’re observing. So we’re making a lot of attributions. And I know one attribution bias is that we understand the context and complexity of our lives. So of course, we would never do anything bad, but to other people, we see them have one bad day and we go, that’s a bad person, right? They’re short tempered. They’re impatient. But no, maybe they missed lunch. Maybe they just had a fight with their spouse. Right? So understanding that difference means giving people a break, not taking things so personally. And if you cannot do that, if you get so triggered when someone says something.

AW: it means it’s you. It’s not them, right?

TA: It’s you. So you have to learn to navigate your internal world so you can show up in relationships in an assertive and direct manner. And one last tip in this area, I will say is, you’re getting overwhelmed, most likely because you don’t have tools and scripts to deal with difficult situations. So the moment anything comes up or you’re being challenged, you freak out you freeze and again, that threatening response is what shuts you down because you’re feeling helpless.

AW: Exactly. No alternative. Really, you don’t have a plan.

TA: Yeah. If that’s happening, what that means is you should start reading books about communication and relationships and …

AW: hallelujah.

TA: Exactly. Learn some scripts about how to articulate your needs in a non-aggressive manner. And so it’s your job to learn to navigate these relationships and respond in a way that you’re advancing your needs, and also being respectful and caring to the person in front of you.

AW: So my next question is actually about navigating those relationships, whether it’s personal or professional. Do we all feel the same emotions? Or are there differences? Is there like a segmentation scheme? And across what factors might they vary?

TA: That’s a really great question. Interestingly enough, when I asked this question of do we all feel the same emotions to an MBA class full of lots of very smart people, I will get anywhere between 30 to 70%, saying we do not feel the same emotions, which I think is mind boggling, because we’re all humans. We all share the same physiology at the end of the day. Now to answer that question, Paul Ekman ended up going to a tribe that was not contacted by the outside world and he started videotaping their emotional expressions. And he started showing them different expressions from different cultures and ask them like what is the story of this emotional expression? Basically, what he found is that there’s no such thing as someone, let’s say showing an angry face when they’re happy, or someone smiling when they’re angry naturally, naturally, there’s no such thing. There are seven emotional expressions give or take…

AW: Oh, I want to hear what the seven are!

TA: So there’s seven emotional expressions that – basically our core emotions that we all express. So it’s enjoyment, fear, disgust, contempt, surprise, sadness, and anger. There are of course, different variations. And then there’s secondary emotions, which is something like guilt, compassion, right? But those are the core emotions. We all feel. Yeah. Now, culture gives us cues for what is okay to express and how.  So there’s a great study that put Americans and Japanese to watch a movie. So Japanese are known to be a little bit more reserved. So you might assume that they’re not feeling emotions, right? Now, when both cultural groups didn’t think that they were being watched, both the Americans and the Japanese express the same emotions at the exact same time throughout the movie – in the same way or similar way. When they thought they were being watched, only the Americans expressed emotions.

AW: Oh, interesting. That’s really interesting.

TA: That’s a very powerful lesson about the role of culture in moderating how we express emotions. But also to suggest just because someone isn’t expressing something the way you would expect, it doesn’t mean they’re not feeling it. So the onus falls on you to try to be a little bit more patient and be a little bit more expressive and ask them what they’re thinking.

AW: Right.

TA: One of the things I say is just because you learn how to read body language doesn’t mean you’re a mind reader.

AW: That’s right. And there are people out there who have studied body language that are misguiding you by faking it,…

TA: oh my god, I have to say, that’s one of my hugest pet peeves. I’m sure I hate. I hate people that call themselves experts that do not ground anything that they know in facts. And this is so upsetting because they’re perpetrating false narratives. They’re giving people the wrong tools. And in that moment where you genuinely want to learn and improve, you might think that there’s something wrong with you because you’re following this thing that “experts,” (I’m using quotes), “experts” say you should do and it’s not working. Well, it’s not working…

AW: So are you talking about body language coaches?

TA:  I’m talking about lots of different types of coaches. But body language coaches. Yeah. Because so when I started looking at people in pop culture and just people like writing books about it, I started looking at…

AW: I can think of the names I know.

TA: Yeah, I started looking at the CVs and I’m like, I remember recently, I saw someone saying to be a body language expert, and he was a doctor. He was a chiropractic doctor.

AW: Yeah.

TA: I think we all have valuable knowledge, but just be honest about what you are. Yeah, I got to bring that in…!

AW: Oh, how do you feel? Tatiana? Tell us what emotion are you feeling right now?

TA: Oh, my god. I’m not amused.

AW: That is funny. What about males versus females?

TA: Ah, that is an interesting one. Interestingly enough, when women have neutral faces, it gets coded as negative by males. So this this speaks to this idea of people always saying, well, you should smile – more specific to women in our culture. We do not like women having neutral faces. And there’s a study that actually even uses famous celebrity women who showed that this idea of quote unquote, “resting bitchface” is just a woman having a neutral face.

AW: Right, it was actually just going to say that!

TA: If your face needs to rest, give yourself a break like it needs to rest, but also know that males and females have to express more positive emotions in their relationships. Another interesting one, for example, is when men speak up in meetings, it’s seen as taking initiative and is rewarding, but when females do it, they’re seen as rude and they actually get pinged. So again, there’s all these cultural cues that we put on top of gender that really misconstrue what the person is feeling. And another huge difference is women are allowed to express sadness, but they can’t express anger. And men are allowed to express anger, but they can’t express sadness. So what you get is, a lot of the time you’ll find women cry when they’re angry, and they don’t even know that they’re feeling angry because they’ve been so conditioned to suppress it. And if anger is about boundaries, Right. It’s so fascinating because it’s basically women’s boundaries being violated and then not knowing that they need to act and assertively say, No, this isn’t okay.

AW: That is really interesting. Is this changing over time, do you think?

TA: I think it’s important to note that we all feel the same emotions, regardless of gender and culture. And if we start from that place, and we start learning how to express ourselves, we can cultivate relationships that are genuine. And that can be a starting point to have more honest discussions and maybe start changing corporate culture. academia is very powerful in just debunking cultural myths, right?

AW: So we can stop saying this idea of like, oh, women are so emotional, and men are so rational.

TA: I don’t even know what that means. Yeah, but I do know what’s wrong.

AW: I can imagine that that would confuse you.

TA: That would mean that that makes me very upset. But when you have this research and you let’s say laid out to business students, or execs, then they start shifting the way they see people and their employees and I do see a big difference in my students when they walk out because they email me years later, saying, you know what, what you taught me helped. And last year, I’m so thrilled I actually had someone’s wife messaged me through the students saying like, thank you because I’ve noticed a difference in my husband.

AW: That’s amazing.

TA: Yeah, it’s so exciting because I focus on negotiations in the business context. But at the end of the day, we’re all humans. We’re social. And so everything’s about managing social relationships. And once you learn that skill, it transfers over to all these different aspects of your life.

AW: Is there anything else in terms of advice that you have for listeners related to emotions and optimizing their communication?

TA: You know what I’m going to leave you with this message that I share to all my students. A lot of the times you might sit there and say, oh, that person’s kind of making me feel bad. I promise you, it’s not them. It’s you.

AW: It’s you.

TA: So if you start with the assumption that it’s you, now all of a sudden you have the responsibility and the ability to go do something about it. Start investing in yourself by learning to meditate, learning to regulate your emotions, learning what anger and sadness feels like in your body and start to also pick up communication tools and practicing them. So how to sit, how to speak your boundaries, how to express your needs, how to make demands of people how to say no to people, and from that space with all those tools, all your relationships are going to improve. Once you learn to express yourself differently, people are just automatically going to respond to you differently. That’s, that’s a worthy endeavor. It’s exciting.

AW: And it’s empowering. It’s not you, it’s me, it’s my turn to step up.

TA: And the last thing I want to say is, if you do your work, and the counterpart isn’t matching you, then you’ve learned something valuable about that relationship and you want to you might want to walk away or put some, you know, contingencies in place to protect you from people. So not only does this deepen relationships, but it will show you which are the good ones in your life, and which are the bad ones. I think that’s an amazing thing to know because then you can just invest your time in the people that matter to you.

AW: Okay, now we’re going to shift to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Are you ready?

TA: I’m ready.

AW: First question, what are your pet peeves?

TA: People walking in the middle of the street, I find this very upsetting because I can’t walk around them. People who say shedule instead of schedule.

AW: That’s funny, that’s a very specific one.

TA: But when I hear it in a business meeting, I just ,part of me just like clicks off and goes oh that sounded wrong. And that squeaky noise a knife makes on plates. Like I have left restaurants when I realized like that was a thing that was going to be happening. I can’t handle it.

AW: Really?

TA: Yeah, it like sends down a weird shiver in my spine. And I have a physical reaction to it.

AW: Interesting. Question number two, what type of learner are you? visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner?

TA: You know what I actually learn through having a personal connection to the material independent of the medium. So if I know it’s important, if I see the relevance in my life, I will dive deep into it. But if someone’s just telling me some sort of theory, it really doesn’t matter. Like how they’re presenting it. I’m just going to check out.

AW: so it’s almost like an experiential learner.

TA: Yeah, I think I think that that must be what it is.

AW:  Okay, question number three: introvert or extrovert?

TA: I am an introvert who has learned to be an extroverted introvert. While I enjoy mixing with lots of people and I’ll do it I feel extremely exhausted afterwards. And I literally need to go in a dark space and be myself.

AW: Okay, you are an introvert. Interesting. Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations?

TA: You know what?, I love voice messages. I love voice messages.

AW:  interesting.

TA:  Because emotions are expressed through our body, our face, and our voice. And our voice is super rich.

AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most?

TA: I have to recommend four.

AW:  Okay.

TA: So the first one that I love is Relationship Alive by Neil Sattin, and he’s a therapist, where he talks to scholars and different therapists all about communication tools, relationships, it’s a really great one. Love that resource.

AW:  Okay, I’m going to put a link in the show notes to all of these just in case listeners are scrambling for a pen.

TA: Yes, don’t scramble. The next one that I love is HBR Women at Work.

AW:  Yeah.

TA: And that’s an editorial team that again, talks to researchers and gives you practical takeaways. And I’ve learned so much from that podcast. Like it just it’s amazing. Another one that I love is the ManTalks podcast with Connor Beaton. I think that’s really great for men, because he taught, he’s a therapist. And again, there’s a lot of really great conversations about communication and relationships. And the last one I’m going to give you is Francesca Maximé Wise Girl, which is more for minorities. And it’s really understanding how cultural structures impact your individual behavior and how to come up out of that. So again, she actually is a journalist, and she talks a lot about race, intergenerational trauma, patriarchy, and it’s a great resource for that group.

AW:  Wow, what a list and I have to say it’s really interesting that you have the podcast that’s targeting women at work. But then also men at work. It’s almost like you’re exercising media hygiene in your podcasts.

TA: Yeah, I think it’s really important to be aware of the different conversations happening and to not be stuck in your own silo. So I share those four podcasts. I listened to all of them. But you know, if you need to find something that speaks to you, I believe that’s where that’s how you should start.

AW:  Yeah, thank you so much. I learned a lot. I know the listeners will too. And I hope we can do it again sometime. Thank you.

TA: I would love that. And it’s been a pleasure to be here and share this information. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

THANKS for listening – and READING!

Stay safe. And TALK SOON!

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The post #50 EMOTIONS with researcher & educator Tatiana Astray – podcast appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Learning strategist & parenting coach Kimberley Acres helps us in this time of physical distancing and online schooling with parenting philosophies and online learning tactics, including optimizing our children’s workspace, setting boundaries, and celebrating!

Parenting coach Kimberley Acres with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki on their Zoom interview

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Kim, for joining us here today to share your expertise.

Kim Acres: Thank you for having me.

AW: All right, let’s start with a general question. What should we as parents be thinking about in terms of our role in our children’s education?

KA: That is a great question for today, particularly after most of us have been housebound with our children, watching them and ourselves struggle through what education looks like in the time of COVID-19. I’d like to take that question and sort of put it into two parts. The first part is the role of the parents and the second part is our children’s education.

It is sometimes challenging for us to really recognize that it is our children’s education, and in my experience, working with parents through hundreds of parent teacher interviews, the thing I noticed the most that’s such a challenge. For parents is to let themselves off the hook. Ultimately, our children’s education is their education. And the moment we let ourselves off the hook, we empower our children to own their own education and to own their own learning.

All of us as parents struggle with this idea of who we want our children to be of having control of accepting our children the way that they are. And then as a result, encouraging them and empowering them to own their own experiences. I can give you an example of a time a strong memory I have years ago coaching ice hockey, and I had a five year old girl, a really great skater at that age and I was tying her skates. And as I’m tying her skates, she said, I’m so excited for today. My mom said if I get a goal she’s going to give me $5.

AW: Wow.

KA: And I had this tightness in my stomach because as a coach, and – anyone who’s had their child in that age of hockey knows that we change their positions every game. So some games, they’re a defenseman some games, they’re at center some games, they’re the goalie, and I had put this little girl on defense that day.

So I knew exponentially that her chance of getting a girl had gone down significantly. Needless to say, she didn’t get a goal. And I will never forget this, the idea that it’s not one experience that dictates our child’s education. But the moment we let go of owning it, or controlling it, or trying to make it something, our children get to own it.

AW: That’s a great point. But when you said we need to let go of the outcome, we need to let ourselves off the hook. I’m in my mind saying so much easier said than done. Right? I mean, I’m seeing impending disaster and I just want to save them and it’s such a cliche when parenting – we save our kids.

KA: It is let me share a metaphor. It’s one that has over time been a powerful perspective on education for me. If you think of your child’s education as a tree, and the education system as the trunk and education from kindergarten through to post secondary education will provide for our children, the foundation, the strength of the trunk.

When parenting, we offer the nutrients, we take our children on trips, we walk around the block and have a conversation, we get them a bicycle, we become the motivators of the branches, and that leads sometimes we even get to pick the tree, it can be an oak, it can be a weeping willow, it can be a birch tree. That metaphor has provided for me so much solace in the education system. There is no perfect education system, but every education system will provide that trunk what the rest of the tree looks like.

Is it in our domain, we get to see our children after school, we get to be the recipients of what their day was like, and the capacity to accept that we don’t have to control the outcome. We don’t need to be fearful for our children. And there’s a lot of fear right now around this time period, what are students going to lose? The opportunity inside, of being at home as a family is much greater than the potential loss. So what’s the role of parents?

I know a lot of parents are feeling right now that they need to be teachers as well. But if we can let go of the outcome, ultimately, and trust that everything is an education, we will see our students, our children thrive inside of this and a very simple thing we can do is validate. What’s the difference between praise and validation? Well, praise is That’s great or Good job.

It’s almost meaningless. But something that validates is a strong statement. I saw today you spend a lot of time on math, we validate their action. Rather than saying good job on math today. I want them to feel as though even if they’re not strong at it, they’re not scared of it. So a validating statement right now is probably the best opportunity we have to support our kids in their learning is to validate what they’re doing.

AW: So would you say that the validation is about effort versus the praise is about outcome?

KA: Yes, yes. Our children aren’t always going to be successful. And if we’re only looking at their outcome or the outcome that we want for them, we’re almost setting them up for failure.

AW: Well, this links to your metaphor, which I absolutely love, I love metaphors in general. And I think the tree metaphor is really beautiful. I love it. And I’m wondering if working within that metaphor, if we should be thinking about when parenting, our role, as you said is it’s the foundation. So are we the soil, the nutrients? And so therefore when parenting should we be really focusing on providing learning opportunities. Is that our job?

KA: I will be the last person to tell parents what they should do, I really want us to escape from that word should, and look at what we can do. And all parents from every background have the skills to look at what they can offer. It might just be a little sticky note beside our teenager as he or she is forcing herself to look at these online videos that says hot chocolate later, or lunch at 12.

And those statements of validation take away the pressure of having to be something in my experience as a teacher of high school students, they put enough pressure themselves, and they do it instinctually and sometimes it’s in the form of acting out. Sometimes it’s in the form of defiance, sometimes it’s in the form of complacency.

But yes, we look at our job as broadening and education’s job is moving kids upward, then every opportunity we expose our children to becomes a branch. But if we trust it, and then we actively look at who we are as part of their lives outside of the institution, we can build the most amazing strong branches and leaves and fruit and berries and seeds that will create possibilities and opportunities for our kids for years and years and years and beyond the math or the geography or the English tutorial that they’re working on today.

AW: Exactly. Well, that’s beautiful and very empowering as well. And I want to go back to your story about the young hockey player who skates you were doing up. And I was wondering what your take is on intrinsic versus extrinsic motivations and rewards as I guess, particularly in terms of parenting.

KA: That action of wanting to motivate our children beyond the actual experience is deep and real. And we’re also living in a culture where everyone gets a red ribbon. So there’s a certain age where kids will thrive on that idea of competition, but it runs out. extrinsic motivation versus intrinsic is really a developmental part of who our children are.

And if we go back to Eric Erickson’s stages of psychosocial development. For example, we know that there are ages in which students can’t possibly or our children can’t possibly comprehend the satisfaction of an intrinsic reward, but it comes with experience. So I think that story really was a reminder to me of the need to be careful with our extrinsic motivators because they run out. What happens at age 16. What happens at age 19? If our children are still looking for something outside of themselves, what happens when our teenage daughters get on Instagram? Or they get Snapchat or they follow TikTok videos, and they see others looking their best because everybody can look good on social media, right?

AW: I think that’s, that’s a great example. You go on social media, and suddenly it’s all extrinsic, right? And I actually hadn’t thought of that. I have to tell you this my now 16 year old was playing a basketball and we he would do really well in practice, but not in games. And one time I said to him, I’m gonna pay you $1 for every rebound and $5 for a basket, and he had the best game he’s ever had in his entire life.

And the assistant coach said to me, what did you feed him? So Afterwards, I said, we’re never doing that again. But now you know what you’re capable of, Here’s your money. Think about it. And we actually still talk about it because we talked about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards in this house, actually, so

KA: Well, and I can add to that, if you want just the idea of who’s the reward for? As parents, we want to see our children succeed. And we sometimes will offer these types of rewards because it makes us feel better and right. It felt great, I’m sure, right.

AW: To be honest, the whole time I was ashamed because I know about all the research on extrinsic. I mean, I was proud of his basketball progress, but I was ashamed of anyway, that’s fine.

KA: That’s a really honest share.

AW: so so as we were talking about intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, you said there may be an evolution as as children mature, so I’m wondering if we can talk a little bit about how children’s needs evolve as they mature.

KA: Currently, when I’m talking to students they’re virtual learning, I’m talking to a range of ages. And it is very interesting to identify what kids know about themselves at different ages. And when we’re young, we’re really looking around for the models. Most of us as parents have had our young children come home at one point or another and throw out a swear word.

Sometimes we marvel at where that came from. That’s part of the learning at that stage is the maturation is to sort of mimic. But as kids grow, they start to demand autonomy. And as the adolescent brain changes, and it’s a very intense change through those preteen and teen years, and a little bit of understanding of that can really support us as parents and how to support them.

And I would encourage every parent to talk to their preteen and their tween about what’s happening to your brain and not use it as an excuse. That’s not fair. But to use it as knowledge, helping them to understand themselves, helping them to understand their friends, Why are my friends acting out? Why does my best friend not care about school anymore? Why doesn’t my friend talk to me instead of just looking at his phone all the time when we’re walking home from school?

AW: Yeah. And implicit in that answer, I think was something that I think is really important, which is you can ease your way into the conversation about your child by talking about their friends, right?

KA: Very much.  Yeah, and think about when their friends are over. Yeah, it’s very entertaining when you sit down at dinner with a friend, your child and one of their friends, the liberty their friends have with sharing that sometimes your own child won’t. So hearing through our children’s friends and their boyfriends and girlfriends and others that they bring into their lives is a great way to covertly and quietly discover what they are up to, and the role we play in the same home.

It definitely changes over time, and a lot of us will see our teenagers become a little more secretive. Maybe they will bring friends into their lives quietly as their primary confidant. Some of our kids will go to their rooms and predominantly live in work in their rooms. I always want to know what’s going on with my children, but lots of times they’re not going to answer a direct question anymore. Because it’s theirs. And I want to empower them to be young people.

I want to empower them to make their own choices, preferably good ones, but there are going to be times when they make ones that I don’t like. And a couple of little strategies that have really allowed my children and I to stay sane with each other would include modeling. If they see me going out and getting some exercise. When they see me calling somebody on the phone to have a chat. If they see me taking a risk starting a business That has been a key to empowering them to be themselves and know that it’s okay to make mistakes. Mm hmm.

AW: I find that empowering and inspiring personally as well, right? It takes some of the weight off to think, well, I just have to show them.

KA: Correct. Correct. It goes back to that thing we talked about right at the beginning, that we don’t have to own the outcome they get to have the outcome. Being able to come along is a privilege when our kids are teenagers, if they still want us to come and watch a game, if they still want to show us how they’ve done in school. It’s a gift. And I celebrate those moments.

AW: That’s an important mindset. I think it’s not my right. It’s a privilege.

KA: Yeah, it is. And we ultimately need to remember the end game. We want our children to step out into the young adult world with enough confidence and resiliency, self advocacy to own their own personal experiences. So that idea of really holding space just hold space. Silence is uncomfortable, but it is a gift to teenagers Hmm, hold space. Listen for what isn’t said. And don’t listen as an L1 learner.

When my kid says something, I’ll say oh, well that happened to me too or Oh when I was this age. They don’t need to hear about our experiences now. They need to be okay with their own. When we become an L2 or an L3 learner, we’re watching how our kids are telling us information. We are watching for the gestures we’re watching for what they don’t say. So that idea of holding space, modeling and the last little piece that has been gold for me and I know for parents that have been able to do this it’s been gold for them as well, is admitting when we’re wrong. Right?

I do sometimes get angry with my kids. For even still for the littlest things they did when they were five coming in with muddy boots, or not putting their dishes in the dishwasher. How many times do we need to tell them those little simple basics that they should be able to help out with?

AW: And this is amplified right now with all of us being contained in our homes with our family. right?

KA: So, this was pure luck, I think. But I found myself a few years ago, apologizing for an angry outburst. And it was a very vulnerable moment for me. And I realized, I think I had finally found this self awareness to realize that there was something else going on in my mind that caused me to get angry with my daughter.

And I went back to her bed an hour later, and I said, You know what, I responded incorrectly. If I could take back what I said to you an hour ago, I would here’s why I think I said it and I just said what I was worried about, and being human and being vulnerable also gives our children license to be vulnerable. And who isn’t vulnerable today in this moment, in this time in history, I want our children to remember this time as one of opportunity to look at decisions that adults have made that they see value in. Right? So those are the three little things I would share as gems.

AW: So modeling, holding space and admitting when we’re wrong, and being vulnerable. Your story there reminded me of a conversation that I had with my eldest just at the beginning of this physical distancing situation that we’re all in and I said that I read online. I think it was Gretchen Rubin, the happiness guru. She said, as we’re embarking on this new social experiment that none of us have experienced before. Ask yourself, what story do you want to tell yourself when this is all over? Isn’t that empowering? It actually gives me the shivers.

KA: What a great comment for all of us. But yeah, what opportunity will you discover in this? Yeah, Brené Brown, recently in an interview was asked a question about having courage right now and that people who are courageous must be really excelling. And she commented back something along the lines of Well, no, because taking a risk is messy. Being courageous means that you’re trying something you haven’t tried before. And then she said, I will misquote her slightly, but she said something like, this is my first pandemic. How about you?

AW: Yeah. I love it.

KA: And that’s it. Right? We are all human. We’re all vulnerable, where we are all looking at ourselves in the mirror going what happened today?

AW: yeah. So on one hand, though, I feel like there’s been a lot of pressure because as you said, we’re constantly role modeling and the kids are watching us and you know, yesterday, I vacuumed my entire house, top to bottom. every nook and cranny and I became grumpier and grumpier, as it was happening. I think there were two main things that were contributing to that.

One was I just kept thinking, I was in my head, right. I just kept thinking about what’s going on. And it was really bringing me down. And also, as I was vacuuming, I was seeing all the messes from the other four people in my house. And what they had left behind for their maid (IE me) to clean up and I was getting really grumpy. And I was, I was just really down on it, and on everyone in anything in my way, and then afterwards, to your point, I did apologize. And I told them, here’s why I was grumpy its these two things. And but I’m really sorry, and I should, I should be able to handle this better

KA: And good for you. How brave to take that moment to pause, reflect on your own actions, and then share them back, mirror them back to your children.

AW: I was pretty grumpy. I have to say.

KA: I think we’ve all been very grumpy and the only suggestion that that I might have here that is a pretty powerful learning piece for all of us as parents, when we go back to the book that many of us looked at, at the beginning of our parenting life, What to Expect When You’re Expecting or what to expect in the first year, I think that’s the only two books that could be titled with what to expect, because after that, it’s pretty tough to know what to expect.

AW: That is so true.

KA: This is really one of those times, but we can set boundaries right now for ourselves and know what they are as parents. And if the boundary is that at the end of the day, the counter needs to be cleaned so that we start our mornings fresh while we are all living together, then it’s fair to state that boundary. If the boundary is that all of our teenagers right now own three hours a day of their own learning, then let’s share that boundary and be clear with it and not waffle with it.

Our kids, well, most of the time, they’ll respect our boundaries. But they need to know what they are first. And that’s a great – looking at ourselves as parents, what are we comfortable with. And we have modeled values. Maybe I want to take the pressure off, because throughout our growth as families, we share values, but it’s not our job to insist our children accept all of those values.

I hope that I’ve modeled the values of charitable actions, a growth, mindset, kindness, self preservation and self care to my daughters. I can insist that they also accept those as their own values. I can model those. And when we get into this, insisting that the outcome has to be something, we not only set ourselves up for real challenges, particularly now inside of our homes, together.

AW: that is the scary thing that we were talking about at the very beginning, right? So you want to back off and let them learn and let them fall and not save them all the time. You know what, I’ve heard it so many times. And it’s it is very compelling, consistent message. So thank you for that. Now, I’m wondering if we can get into a little bit of the nitty gritty about online learning. And I know that you have had some experience over the years and right now you’re actually coaching some families and some teenagers and other younger students how to optimize their learning. And I’m wondering if you can share with the listeners what we can do to enable that when parenting.

KA: Certainly learn at home, I keep hearing learn at home, and it’s really not a new philosophy, except that we’ve attempted to move school inside of our homes. I’d like to call it virtual learning. And I think I want to also acknowledge to every parent that this is a necessary step. To support the moment we’re in in time, and that’s all. So we want to encourage our children to do the best they can inside of what virtual and online learning has to offer.

Knowing that this is not a forever style of learning. What I have had the pleasure of doing in the last couple of weeks is meeting with students of all ages and trying to bring a lightness to this learning. So the first step that I that I take with kids and teenagers is to talk to them about what they like. And some kids can rhyme off a list of 20 activities or items that they like others really pause to recognize what is it that I like?

And what I try to do is embed students in okay when you like something, how do you feel and find out the vocabulary sometimes too, for a 10 year old or a 12 year old or a 16 year old to, to explain how he or she feels about an experience is challenging. But if we can take those positive feelings with us and know what we feel like at the moment when we are the most proud, that’s another question that I’ve been asking. What did you feel at a time when you were the most proud of something that you had done?

We put kids into that moment, and we help them recognize what it feels like when we’re doing something we like. Then it takes the fear out of and the uncertainty and the lack of engagement and then just the discerning necessity of Oh, I have to learn this way. So it’s sort of disarms the resistance a little bit. Yeah. So that’s a positive approach. If we’re as parents complaining about the limitations of virtual learning. Well, believe me, our children will find more. Right?

And I’m not going to pretend it’s perfect. Like I said to you earlier, it’s the trunk. And it’s a little bit of the trunk right now. It’s probably the part that’s the winding or it has the, the outgrowth, the sort of the big word on the trunks of some reason, you see. So it has limitations. But this online world is something that our children are living in. Right, they’re comfortable there. And so that’s the thing that we can celebrate with them. This is theirs to own they know how to learn inside of technology.

AW: Yeah, yesterday, my eldest made a very sort of flippant comment to me about you know, this online learning is getting a little bit boring. But yesterday, our teacher mixed it up and he had us do some exercise and then come back in the second half of the class and talk about what we did and it was it was awesome. And I said to him, why don’t you just send your teacher a private note and tell them that because I think your teacher is probably struggling as much as you are with this. And the fact that he did something that you appreciated would mean a lot to him. And also, he might do it again or look for another way of bringing in some novelty.

KA: Wonderful. And, you know, we know that’s a great way of kind of getting what we would like more of right identify what we enjoyed in it. And we want to do that with our kids. Right. I saw you put the dishes away last night. Thank you. Yeah, right. I nag you every night about it. Now, I stopped nagging you but I saw you do it. I guarantee you that goes into our teenagers mind. So how validating for your son to send that to his teacher and for the teacher then to receive it. We’re all humans, we’re all looking for positive feedback at a time when none of us none of us have the script.

AW: Right. So And to your point earlier, he was talking about something that he likes right and Then reinforcing it with the person that basically enabled that positive opportunity. Can you just share a little bit more about what we do with the answers? So when our kids tell us what they like or when they’re most proud, are we then reverse engineering, the online experience to leverage those things somehow? Or what are we doing with their answers?

KA: So the next question that I asked is, I’ve been asking students to identify what their students strengths are. There are some students recognizing that they need they know many times students know what they need to learn. They sometimes don’t know how they learn, they sometimes don’t know how to get to the desired outcome. But most of them know their strengths. And so when we have our children pause and say, What am I good at? And often that idea can be facilitated through that question of what do I like? Students will tell you I love I’m good at shooting hoops.

For example, let’s just take something they like, well, what makes you good at it? Well, I go out in the laneway. And I do it all the time. Well, I know as a teacher, that’s practice. I use that metaphor in my classroom all the time, you don’t show up a few, a few Michael Jordans will show up and get three point shooters off the bat. But there’s an old example for you, that dates me, but most learners practice and so if we can get students to notice a strength, I have this practice and bring that willingness to practice this new form of learning.

Another strength that I’m really noticing the students I’ve worked with thus far on their approach to virtual learning are identifying that they thrive in a quiet space without distractions. So I’ve had some of them I have a snapchat bitmoji and a snapchat address that I share with my students as their coats. And they have to snap me a picture of their workplace. And then they have to snap me a picture the teenagers where they’re leaving their phone during their work time.

So here’s my workspace –  is a very important one. And when we ask students to dig in a little bit to how they learn and start to own their learning, which is the ultimate goal, and this will look different at different ages, but when we hit when our when our children hit grades, 11 and 12, we want them to be able to identify and state I’ve learned the best when I’m doing these things.

AW:  That’s really important, isn’t it?

KA: Yeah, it is. And I very much see in this opportunity to learn online and through virtual lessons, the opportunity to examine how we learn. If I notice as a 14 year old boy that I am sitting for 20 minutes and I start to get fidgety in my chair. Then I create a schedule where I work for 25 minutes and I take a five minute break. And I go shoot 10 threes in the laneway or I go run around the block or whatever it is I need to do. I come back and I work for another 25. And that will vary with ages. We talked about kids and how they mature, giving them some control, letting them create a workspace, letting them create a schedule

AW: and letting them feel like they’re customizing their own experience, right?

KA: Yes, I have one young man who wears his father’s tie when he’s a student. And he takes the tie off and he leaves it at his workstation when he’s not a student. And it’s a tiny little thing. Put on something you feel great about. If you’re a Leafs fan or a Raptors fan and you feel great in that in the shirt you wear when you go to one of their games, put it on when you’re a student, leave it at your computer at your workplace when you’re not.

AW: I love that. So physically using symbolism around you. It could be what you’re wearing. Yeah, I love your exercise about asking a snapshot photo of their workspace and where their phone is. I think that’s absolutely brilliant. I’m sure they respect you for that, too.

KA: They are loving it. And you know, it’s a fun little thing and I get to send off my own bitmoji but cheerleading or dancing or whatever.

AW: Oh, you like the bitmoji? I love it right?

KA: It’s a celebration, the more we can celebrate our children’s intentions, the more they celebrate themselves.

AW: Well, I love the positive inspiring message of celebrating and also you talked a lot about role modeling and taking the pressure off and, and I’m feeling much more optimistic right now, I think than I was before I started my conversation with you. But I, I have to ask you one other thing before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, just to keep in the back of my mind and hopefully this will help the listeners as well. When parenting, what are the biggest mistakes that people make in terms of encouraging a positive learning mindset in their tweens and teens?

KA: If we want to begin with a positive learning mindset as parents, I want to encourage all of us to not think about making mistakes. As soon as we think about ourselves making a mistake, then we set ourselves up maybe for failure, or maybe for not doing as much as we feel we should do. And there’s a great book The Journey of the Heroic Parent, by Brad Reedy. It’s an excellent and very supportive parent book. He suggests that there’s no way you’re going to avoid screwing up as a parent, you will make mistakes even at times big ones, and that’s okay.

We started this conversation with the idea of letting ourselves off the hook. And especially at this time, I want to encourage every parent to do that, to celebrate, to be a learner yourself ,to acknowledge when we’re wrong, because occasionally we are. And to validate that. Children are doing the best they can. When we observe their efforts, have a lightness. Life is about lightness, and what better time than to laugh a little bit together at the craziness of the world that we are in at this moment. A positive learning mindset is a willingness to learn. And our kids all have it. Look at this as an opportunity and celebrate.

AW: Very, very nicely put. Thank you. Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions?

KA: Yes.

AW: First question. What are your pet peeves?

KA: I really don’t have a lot of things that bother me on a daily basis. But I will say when I’m walking to work, and a car passes me and splashes my shoes, that really is something that I can’t get past and it’s, it’s often for me, not forgivable.

AW: I don’t think that’s forgivable for anyone. Question number two. What type of learner are you?

KA: I am really an experiential learner, I can remember every activity that I have done where I have moved forward in my understanding of who I am, or I have learned something about the world around me. And as an adult now looking back and as a teacher, I know that I can identify my big learning moments with experiences, but I didn’t really learn that I would say until adulthood.

AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert.

KA: I am, despite the fact that I’m a teacher and I stand in front of students, and I have conversations with colleagues all day, I’m an introvert. And it took me a long time to be comfortable with that. I spent some time really learning about the characteristics of introvert versus extrovert and I want to say there’s nothing wrong with either of them. But I do read re energize being by myself.

AW: It’s really important self knowledge, isn’t it? to understand how you refuel. Okay, question number four communication preference for personal conversations.

KA: I don’t think this is old school because I use all of the technology. But I am certainly a face to face person. And my daughters both know that they know when we have a topic when plans have changed, we talk about it. It isn’t enough to just send a message saying something changed. I like to hear their voice if face to face isn’t possible. And then the other little thing I’ve added to all my communication with my children, as they’ve gotten older, is permission. I often ask permission to talk about something and they’ll tell if they’re busy, because I can say, Can I ask you about what happened yesterday? And then they’ll say not right now. Or can we talk about that later?

AW: I really like your second point too, though, about asking permission and I’ve been teaching my kids that when they call someone and they have something that they want or need to discuss that they should always say, do you have a moment to talk about whatever. But I think that should, to your point transcend across any media. If you want to talk to someone about something, it’s not necessarily convenient or optimal for them and you should check in first

KA: And that’s respectful. It’s teaching empathy. It’s showing compassion.

AW: Yeah, fantastic point. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most?

KA: The podcast that tremendously supported me a number of years ago and I have moved away from a little bit now only because i think i’ve i’ve saturated some of the messages is called The Life Coach School, and it’s Brooke Castillo. And if a parent is looking for a way to support their own learning as a way of reflecting on who they are, as human beings, she just breaks down the basics of asking ourselves questions, what does hope look like, how do we support overwhelm? So real basics, simple messages that you can pick up and take with you in a moment.

AW: Well, that’s a great recommendation. I’ll make sure I put links to that podcast in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to share with the listeners?

KA: Keep trusting yourself. And we’ve all got the ability in us to be the kind of parents we want to be. It’s no easy task, but it’s one of the most beautiful gifts that we can have as human beings to participate in the lives of our children.

AW: That is such a beautiful message. Thank you so much, Kim, for sharing your time and your expertise with us.

KA: Thank you for the opportunity. It’s been a pleasure.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

THANKS for listening – and READING!

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The post #49 PARENTING TEENS & ONLINE LEARNING with learning strategist & parenting coach Kimberley Acres appeared first on Talk About Talk.

On presenting with confidence. Learn how to create a compelling presentation, then present it with confidence. Tips for your body language (posture, feet, hands), remembering to pause, projecting strength, warmth, authenticity and passion, and sticking to your one key message.

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Andrew Musselman

Ted Talks:

Video – Phil Davison, “epic speech for treasurer”- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfbBCYQm-4

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Dr. Andrea Wojnicki:So you said that nine out of 10 people are really concerned about presenting with confidence. And I have to tell you that I’ve asked many of my friends and colleagues, what to ask you about how to give a compelling presentation and 100% of them, the first thing that they said was, how to exude confidence. So actually how to feel confident, but then also how to demonstrate confidence. Do you have any pointers for the listeners on presenting with confidence?

Andrew Musselman: I do. The first thing that I like to say to people – you just said 100% of your listeners said they want us to talk about this. That’s something itself that needs to be talked about! We should pause and recognize that that when people feel like, I have a debilitating fear of this I don’t like getting up onstage, well,  you’re in very good company.

AW:True.

AM: The majority of the population does not like this. It’s that old Jerry Seinfeld joke, right, that that most people would rather be in the casket at a funeral than delivering the eulogy. So I think that’s worth people remembering. That this is not novel. This is very common when it comes to presenting with confidence. Again, pausing is huge because what pausing allows you to do, is it allows you to breathe and center yourself. It gives you time to think about what you’re what you’re going to say.You know, for a lot of people, the fear in pausing is, I’m going to look like I don’t know what I’m talking about. And the opposite is true. When a speaker is able to pause in front of an audience, they draw the attention right in towards them

AW: true. It’s magnetic and  the cadence just changes.

AM: Right

AW: and people go, what?

AM: Exactly. And if somebody is able to pause, you just they look like they own the space. So that’s a huge one. I also would say, you know, for those who suffer from a big fear of this practice, there’s nothing that is going to improve your confidence more than practice. That is the number one thing. The French the word for rehearsal in the theater is repetition, right?

AW:I didn’t know that.

AM: just for the sheer sake of repeating – and that is something I would definitely advocate. I am a huge fan of Amy Cuddy’sresearch on this. So if any of your listeners haven’t seen Amy Cuddy’s TED Talk,

AW:yes, I’ve mentioned her a few times. But they may have missed those.

AM: There you go. And her whole thing is that if you practice projecting confidence, which you can do, by the way you stand the way you speak, the way you breathe, and we can talk about specifics on that. But if you practice projecting confidence, it’s going to make you feel more confident, it’s going to change your psychology around all of this. The thing that I love that she says is, when speaking we should focus less on the impression that we’re making on other people and more on the impression that we’re making on ourselves. And that’s huge. You know, if you can get up there and her expression is, fake it till you become it. You just pretend you’re confident and pretty soon you’ll start feeling confident.

AW:Yes, I believe that. I believe that, and I know from doing some research on presenting with confidence that, that she’s been highly criticized for that but I, I absolutely believe it because even physiologically, never mind mentally, your body is learning it.

AM: Yes. I think it’s great. I think as an actor, I mean, you go backstage, there’s nobody… by the way, this is the other thing. There’s nobody who doesn’t feel nervous getting up in front of an audience, right? I have been in shows, you know, sometimes actors perform a show 50 or 100 times. And on that 100th performance, before walking out on that stage, you’re still nervous. And if you’re not getting nervous, you should worry because a might be a psychopath and be you might not really be caring about what’s going to happen. So that’s a huge thing is that everybody gets nervous.

But if you see actors before a show, what they are doing is they are amping their energy up. And that’s another huge thing in terms of presenting with confidence that if you can get some energy going in your body, whether it’s shaking out your hands jumping up and down, going for a walk around the block, that is going to stand you in good stead.

I got asked at a 30th wedding anniversary party to deliver a speech from Shakespeare. So I said yes. And the whole time I’m sitting at the table and I’m kind of, you know, with my husband and with a friend and another friend, and they kept turning to me, are you okay? And what I did, I got up and I went into the bathroom, and I stood in the stall and I just quietly, to myself, rehearsed the first few lines. I shook my hands out, I expanded my upper body, I did some deep breathing.

So I tell that story because you do what you got to do. And don’t ignore those nerves but really thinking of meeting that challenge physically, which is what Amy Cuddy advocates, how are you standing? How are you breathing? And also what’s the energy that’s going through your body? I think that’s a great way to combat those nerves.

AW:Well, it’s like warming up before an athletic performance. I just keep thinking that, right?

AM: Yes, absolutely. If that you would never walk on to a tennis court or a basketball court or somebody without stretching, spending some time getting energized, warming up.

AW:I interviewed an opera singer who told us about what he does to warm up his vocal cords before he goes to do a performance. So it’s –  you have to get into the zone.

AM: Yes. And I bet you I mean, I don’t know how long an opera singers warm up is, but I bet you the first 25-30% of it is breathing.

AW:Yes, you know, we talked a lot about breathing. It’s huge.

AM: So I also think that I don’t mind the word confident, but I don’t like giving that advice to people saying just get up there and be confident because it’s kind of like telling a drowning person to relax.Hey, I would love to but I just don’t feel like that’s within my power right now. But I think when it comes to your voice, if you think of a strong, confident voice, a rich voice, as opposed to a loud voice, because you don’t want to just sound like you’re shouting at the audience. But if you think, Hey, I’m going to speak this, like, I mean it, that is going to be another thing that’s going to just make you feel more confident and more empowered. So I think that’s a big, big part of handling the nerves.

AW:So, so related to presenting with confidence. Can we move into body language? They’re obviously related. And I know some people wonder, how should I stand? Should I stay behind the podium? Should I pick up the microphone and walk around and what do I do with my hands? Do you have any guidance there?

AM: Yes. So if we go back to this idea of strength and warm, the first thing in terms of how you stand, the reality is confident people take up space. But there’s an interesting thing with this stuff. Strength and warm framework that researchers call the hydraulic effect. Which basically means if you try to project one of those things, it’s going to come at the expense of the other one. Oh, well, so you try and really be strong, you’re going to diminish your warm.

AW:So as people assume they’re inversely correlated until you give them evidence?

AM: I think the great example of that if you say to somebody stand confidently, and they puff up their chest and they raise their chin and they tense their entire upper body. You know, you could say, well, yes, that is confident, but there’s zero warmth there. Right? So when it comes to your posture and how to stand, I think the two things to think of is I always tell people, imagine if you have a string that’s pulling you up, so that you’re naturally expanding, you want to think of an expansive posture, rather than creating any kind of tension and tension. It doesn’t serve you as a speaker, but it also looks aggressive. So that is to be avoided. So taking up space, but in a natural, expansive kind of way.

The other thing I would say to think about your posture is your feet should be firmly planted- really, really firmly planted. And I don’t mean that you’re not allowed to move. But something you’ll see a lot of times of speakers is that it’s almost like they got a little bit of a dance going on now they’re shuffling back and forth. It’s because that’s where their nervous energy is going. It’s Oh, yes, feet. Again, thinking of our primal instincts, how that looks to us. It looks shifty. You think the person’s being deceptive, you know. So I would say thinking of your feet nice and firmly planted, and if you are going to move, move with purpose, move with conviction.

AW:That’s great advice. I’ve never heard that. I’m going to be watching for that. You know, in myself and others.

AM: Yes. The best thing that you can think of in terms of physical stuff, I believe, is control and purposeful. You want your gestures, your movement to all look like it’s a choice.

AW:Do we need to rehearse or practice your gestures?

AM:  Maybe yes. It’s a little bit tricky because sometimes when you tell people to rehearse their gestures, and I’m going to talk about a very common technique in a moment, when you tell people to work with these techniques, the dangerous is that it looks forced. But I think if you become conscious of your gestures, and you become conscious of trying to be controlled and purposeful, the more you practice it, the more second nature it will become.

So in terms of that age old question of what do you do with your hands? The first answer is use them. The reason that we gesture I mean, first of all, it makes us look animated makes us look dynamic. But it also goes back again to these survival instincts. You’re showing the listeners, no tools, no weapons.

AW:That’s true, empty hand. That’s true.

AM:That’s the reason that we wave, it’s the reason that we shake hands. If a speaker hides their hands, you know, if a speaker holds their hands behind their back, or if you’re at a boardroom table, and you’re speaking and your hands are under the table,

AW:even at a dining room table, I’ve heard you should actually have your hands politely on the table.

AM: That doesn’t surprise me actually.

AW:Otherwise it makes people feel like what are you hiding?

AM: Yes, it makes them feel at ease. Exactly. So you want to be gestured. But the same thing again, much like I was saying about the feet. The trouble is when the nervous energy gets into the hands and the gestures become repetitive, or sort of nonsense, when the gestures are just sort of happening, and the speaker has no control over them. So a technique that I advocate, again, this is a pretty well known technique, and it’s an old technique, but the prism where you press your fingertips together,

AW:ah,

AM: hold your hands. Yes, in a prison out in front of your body. It sounds ludicrous. And every time I talked to clients about this, they’re like, What are you telling me to do that for?What it does though, is it gives your hands a home base. So often, if your hands are just there in front of you, they become disembodied, and you think, what do I do with these things?

Whereas if they’re, they’re in some kind of a home base, and if you don’t like the prism, you can expand it and imagine you’re holding a volleyball. You know, the magic volleyballis what the technique is called. If you give your hands a home base, then you don’t have to worry about them. And you know that any gesture is going to be controlled and purposeful and precise. And when you’ve made that specific gesture, then you can return to your home base.

AW:I love it. It sounds like yoga class, right? Go back to home base.

AM: Yes, tactic that technique of a home based as with your hands, it prevents your hands from having a mind of their own. So in terms of the strength piece of it, a big part of how you can project strength to your listeners is physical control. So I am standing in an energized can way with conviction. I’m gesturing precisely, I’m expansive. So to answer your question about to stand behind the podium or not, it always I think, looks more dynamic, if you get that podium can create a barrier between you and your listeners.

AW:Yes, I agree.

AM: Yes. So I think getting from behind that is a good strategy. If it’s technically possible, like you can walk with a mic.

AM: Yes, if it’s technically possible. And also listen, if you’re somebody who is very nervous about the speech you have to give, you want your notes in front of you. And you have rehearsed a conversational style where you’re going to make eye contact, you’re going to pause, and you think that’s as much as I can do great. Stay behind the podium. Don’t make it too far.

AW:baby steps.

AM: Yes, exactly. Walk before you run. But I do think if it’s technically possible, and if it’s personally possible, walking around the stage looks great. Provided that you walk with energy, with purpose. And, you know, when you get to a different part of the stage, stand there for a bit, stay there, keep your feet still grounded, centered.

AW:That reminded me of when I was working as a faculty member at the University of Toronto, especially if I was teaching in a big auditorium and I had a huge PowerPoint slide in the middle of the stage and I would kind of go from one side to the other and it actually felt really good to move my body on stage instead of standing there and preaching, right?

AM: Yes, and it goes back to that Amy Cuddy stuff that it looks more energized, it looks more dynamic because it is.

AW:So in addition to making you look more energized is gonna make you feel more energized.

AM: Yes, make you feel more empowered. So that’s a good thing.

AW:So when you were talking about the person who maybe isn’t presenting with confidence, and they’re standing behind the podium, and they’re kind of hugging the podium, but they have to, and they’re working on things kind of one thing at a time, it reminded me of another question that I had for you with regards to PowerPoint slides. And that is, if you’re in a technical presentation, I’m thinking back to your finance guy that you were consulting to. And there’s a slide with data on it that they have to read, or if, for example, it’s a legal presentation, and there’s something that a paragraph that the audience needs to read, how do you choreograph that? Do you read it to them?

AM: So I would say it depends. Depends on what it is, if it’s a quote, I would say always read it. But just to take a step back, that what you do. You want to think about what you’re saying with those slides, especially technical data driven slides. So you make the point first, then display the visual. It’s about exercising control over the audience’s focus. Because the minute you display words on the screen, the listeners are going to stop listening to you. They’re going to just be reading that and nobody can read and listen at the same time, right?

AW:That’s what I keep hearing and reading.

AM: Yes. So what I would say is, if you have, let’s go to finance for a second. If you have charts and graphs and numbers, tell us what we need to know. Then display that visual. And give us a moment to look at the visual when you’re not speaking. In terms of controlling listeners focus, if you’re silent in the case of presenting data, turn and look at the slide. Because if you turn and look at the slide, again, it controls focus, it tells your listeners This is where you look now.

So again, you’re giving yourself that control and that agency in terms of what to read and what not to read. I would say just use your judgment, your intuition. If it’s a big long legal paragraph, maybe that’s something that you want your listeners to read. Because what’s the point of you reading it out loud to them? I would say, the longer the text, the less likely you would want to read it.

AW:That’s a good rule.

AM: Probably, again, though. If you’re asking your listeners to read something, turn, look at the screen and read it, you know, at your slowest, natural reading pace, to make sure that you’re not cutting them off.You’re giving them the time they need to read it. So I would say control the focus.

AW:You’re reminding me now some presentations that I’ve witnessed, where I guess I’m observing as an audience member, but also at a meta level because of what I do. And I see the speakers do that. And they look at the screen and I say, oh, now they’re trying to get us to look at the screen,but it’s effective and the best presenters are actually the ones that I can tell they’re actually reading it,

AM: Right. Mm hmm.Yes, it’s extremely frustrating if a slide gets displayed, and there’s not enough time to read it.

AW:Presumably, it was so important that you had to have it there, right? back to your point from the very beginning.

AM: Yes, it’s there. It’s got to be there for a reason. So I would say yes, the reason to read it along with your listeners, again, it goes back to this idea of the adrenaline that’s going through us when we’re speaking. You’ve got that adrenaline going, you’re not perceiving time accurate. So you want to take that step to read it to just sort of ensure they’ve had enough time to read it and now I can move on.

AW:And to your point about breathing I just thought of this … you can maybe move the mic away from your mouth and do some deep belly breathing while it’s happening and re energize yourself.

AM: Sure. Yes. It’s a moment where the pressures off you.  That reminded me of film acting. It’s like that with acting. There’s a close up of you. So the camera is right in your face and the pressures on and the close up. Anytime you’re not talking, just breathe. Yes. And I said why? And they said well, because if the other guys talking, the camera’s going to be on them. They’re not going to use that shot anyway. So you kind of go Oh, right. Yes. But I thought that was such an amazing performance strategy. What are those moments where I’m allowed to recover? You know, and so I think what you’re saying is excellent. Yes. If you’re turning and reading it, just take a moment to also check in breathe, re energize, and recover.

AW:So the listeners don’t know this. But every time Andrew speaks, I’m like, (heavy breathing).  Just kidding, not at all. Maybe I should have, actually.

AM: She’s doing yoga. Right here in the room while I’m talking.

AW:Yes, yes. I was in Downward Dog over there! All right, before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, is there anything else you want to share with the listeners about providing a compelling message?

AM: I would say, you know, we’ve talked a lot about passion. We’ve talked about projecting strength and warmth and how to be confident when you’re up there. But again, so much of this word comes to the message that you’re sharing that if you take that time to really structure are a cohesive messagereally give your listeners meaning and give them a reason that they should keep listening. I can think of an example actually I worked with a cannabis company. They do cannabis edibles. So that was fascinating to work on as well, because that industry is like the Wild West.

So they were – This is a while ago now – they were going in for an investor pitch. And I was asked to come in and help them rehearse this pitch. And so I listened as they talked a little bit about their company. They talked about how they were founded, they talked about what they were going to do with the money that they were raising, you know, the facility they wanted to build. They talked about the partners who are helping them design the edibles, you know, the part of the food partners, and after a little while I said, I think the problem here is we don’t have a very clear main message.

I started to ask them some questions like, what are your hopes and dreams for this company? You know, beyond making 100 million dollars, what are you really trying to achieve with this and what are you passionate about and all that sort of stuff, and after digging around there, they say Do you know we like to say that we’re creating a product that we would feel comfortable serving to our friends after dinner party? And I said, that’s your main message.

You’re telling me about your facility that you want to build? Why do you need to build that facility? Because you’re creating a product for your friends. So you need to oversee all aspects of production. You’re telling me about the food partners that you’re using? Why are you using those brands? Because they’re brands that you personally engage with, that you trust and that you love? And nothing less than that will do for your friends.

AW:Brilliant.

AM:  Why do you need this scientist who controls the dosing? Because you want to be responsible because you’re creating a product for your friends. So when you find that message, and you take the time to connect everything to it, it just really makes it clear for your listeners. This is what I’m supposed to take away from this. And in making it clear, it makes it compelling, right, as I said earlier, we crave meaning. So when you give your listeners that meaning, this means a product that is appropriate for our friends,

AW:as you’re describing that, my head, as you can see is nodding. And I’m imagining the investors doing the same thing around the table. And it’s almost like, not only do you have a focused message, there are one main point at the apex of your triangle. But you’re also in a way telling your story because I’m imagining you, in several months sitting with your friends around the table after a dinner party and sharing this product with them. So I feel like you’ve you’ve checked all the boxes there. And as I’m nodding my head, I’m imagining the investors who are the audience to that message doing the same thing.

AM: Yes, what it comes down to in terms of the storytelling. Again, it’s that hero goal conflict, that the hero in that situation is the company and that might sound arrogant, but as long as your goal is to help other people, we are creating something that will really be great for people.

AW:as long as the goal isn’t self serving, right?

AM: Yes. Once you have that hero with the goal and all of the struggles and against struggles don’t need to be on then we went bankrupt. The struggles are, how can we oversee production? How can we make sure that the dosage is correct? How can we make these tastes excellent. When we feel those struggles that creates suspense, and again, that hero goal struggle framework, it gives us a reason to care. We just think ah, yes, and that’s what that meaning does. It causes us to lean and it causes us to feel emotionally invested in the message.

AW:That’s a great example. All right. Okay, we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

AM: I am.

AW:Okay. First question. What are your pet peeves?

AM: Bad listening. I hate when people interrupt ,when they lose focus as you’re talking. And I don’t mean the occasional interjections. I mean, like they steamroll over what you’re saying with a completely different point. That’s a huge pet peeve of mine. I don’t like that.

AW:Second question. What type of learner Are you are you visual auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner?

AM: Definitely auditory. I when I have a problem, or even just when I’m thinking I, I can’t tell you the number of times that I get busted by people in public talking to myself

AW:really?

AM:  all the time. It’s the way that I sort through my ideas. I just talk as though I’m having a conversation, I just speak to myself. And sometimes I’ve been moving my mouth and people kind of go, are you okay? And I say, I’m just saying…

AW: you should just keep earbuds in your ears all the time. Then someone will think that you’re in a conversation.

AM: That’s funny. And part of the problem too, with being an auditory learner and doing what I do. Sometimes I have a tendency to say too much, because it’s, I want to make sure that I have created all of the logical links in my idea. And sometimes listeners don’t need that. So I sometimes have that struggle where people go, yes, I get it. I get it.

AW:I have some advice for you.

AM: Yes?

AW: please just start a podcast.

AM: Oh, I bet.

AW:That’s funny. Okay. Well, I think it’s funny. Good job, Andrea. Question number three, introvert or extrovert?

AM: Both, and as I get older, more and more introverted. And I think, you know, there’s a lot of people who wouldn’t believe that about me.

AW:Yes.

AM: I think you realize that as you, you know, put a few years on to your to your CV, you realize that being having both is healthy, but I definitely sometimes need to be on my own to regroup and gather my energy. And when I’m doing something like this podcast or if I’m being interviewed or if I’m leading a workshop, or I’m giving a presentation, I really have to focus on working my energy up, and not in a way that’s like where it’s like drudgery. I mean, I love having the energy of performance. But if I don’t work the energy up that way I can tilt into self consciousness.

AW:Really?

AM: Yes, people sometimes find a find that hard to believe. But I have that mix of introvert and extrovert for sure.

AW:Oh, I thought you were gonna say because you’re such an extrovert and you’re so energized that you then feel like you don’t need to act that way. But maybe you just really are right in the middle. You’re an ambivert which by the way, most of us are. I asked the question as an either or more to be compelling.

AM: An ambivert. I’ve never heard that. That’s interesting.

AW:Yes, most people are right in the middle. Yes. Number four: communication preference for personal conversations. What’s your go to communication medium?

AM: Texting. Actually, I love, I enjoy texting and for a couple of different things, it’s very efficient. I also find it really fun. And maybe I shouldn’t admit this as a communications coach, but I find emojis hilariously fun.

AW:Me too!

AM: You can be irreverent. So I like texting. I also like face to face.

AW:do you use bitmoji?

AM:  Yes, yes, yes.

AW:And memes?

AM: Yes, memes are a newish thing for me – the last six months.

AW:It’s a little bit addictive.

AM: Yes. Bitmogis. I’m all over. I love it.

AW:Question number five. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately?

AM: Yes. It’s called Ask Ronna. And it is a very, very funny, funny podcast. It’s two people, Rhonda Glickman, and Brian Safi, as they would tell their listeners, they’re experts on nothing. They’re have no credentials, but they’re just smart, fun people. And people write in and they give advice. And I find their advice –  it goes from being funny to being very poignant and very sympathetic, which I think is a fascinating. So that that’s a podcast that I’m a big fan of.

AW:I actually have heard of it. I think I may have seen it on iTunes as a recommended one.

AM: Oh, okay. Yes.

AW:Thank you so much, Andrew, for sharing your expertise and your time to help us get out there presenting with confidence. I can tell you, I learned a lot! I’m sure the listeners did as well. So thank you so much.

AM: Well, thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it.

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The post #48 PRESENTING WITH CONFIDENCE with Andrew Musselman appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you know how to prepare and deliver a compelling presentation? Guest expert Andrew Musselman shares presenters’ most common mistakes, what to do if you think you’re losing your audience, and how to successfully incorporate video clips, humour, and storytelling into your talk.

 (Note this is episode 1of2 on COMPELLING PRESENTATIONS.  Episode #48 will include a summary of both episodes.)

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki:Thank you very much, Andrew, for joining us here today to talk about how to give a compelling presentation.

Andrew Musselman: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

AW:I want to start with a question about the best, most compelling presentation that you’ve ever seen. Can you share with me and the listeners – What’s the most compelling presentation you’ve ever witnessed?

AM: Amy Cuddy, I think of Bryan Stevenson, and Brene Brown, all of whom were talking about subjects that interested me and that resonate with me. So that helps, but I think the main ingredient that makes those presentations stand out with their listeners is passion. There’s a great book, actually, Carmine Gallo wrote this book called Talk Like Tedwherehe looks at the highest viewed TED Talks, and he says – here’s why they work. Here’s the skills that these people are employing.

And his first chapter is all about passion. And he says, you know, that is the ingredient what you’re really sharing with your listeners. The reason that you’re giving a presentation, as opposed to just emailing it to people, is you’re sharing your connection to it. We want to see how it lives in you.And so that’s what made those presentations in particular really stand out. In the case of Amy Cuddy and Brene Brown as well, they weren’t afraid to show their emotion that they were speaking about something that they had a deep connection to, which I find so compelling as a viewer as a listener.

AW:It’s hard to actually talk about Brene Brown without using the word vulnerable, but she does make herself vulnerable on stage doesn’t she?

AM: Yeah. And I think you know, authenticityis a big word, right? It’s a bit of a buzzword. I mean, I use it myself. I don’t – I’m not anti the word authenticity, but it’s something that you want to see in presentations. You want to see people being authentic, but that takes a lot of courage, because it does make you vulnerable if you’re revealing a part of yourself. And I think really great presentations, no matter what the topic, even if it’s a business presentation, those compelling presentations do show the listeners that you know how the speaker relates to it, how the speaker connects to the material. It’s so important I think. So passion and authenticity.

AW:I thought you were gonna say storytelling

AM: storytelling as well. I’m a big, big, big fan of storytelling.

AW:I know you are. That’s why I say that!

AM: I think you know, with storytelling, also cohesiveness. We’ll start there, because the thing about a lot of presentations is, presentations that don’t go so well, are presentations that I find lack an overarching message. So presentations that don’t have that clear message. What above all else do I want my listeners to take away from this? What’s the one ideain my training when I work with clients, I call that the main message. Not an original title. But that one key idea. So that’s what I look for. And then in terms of storytelling with any presentation that incorporates storytelling is going to connect with the listeners on a much more personal level. One of the best quotes I’ve ever heard about storytelling. Somebody said, it’s like a Trojan horse for your point of view.

AW:Oh, Brilliant.

AM: Yeah.

AW:I love the metaphor.

AM: You know, it sneaks up on your listeners because you are conveying information in a way that connects with them emotionally. And I think that for me is where the storytelling piece really comes into play. So yes, storytelling is it is a big one. But passion, I think is the is the main one.

AW:It’s like the baseline, I guess, right? Don’t bother telling a story unless you’re passionate, right?

AM: What I think people discount a lot is how much time it takes to write something well, and the first step in giving any presentation is figuring out what you’re going to say. That process that’s that Ernest Hemingway quote about writing. He says, you know, writing is easy. All you have to do is sit down at the typewriter and bleed.And you know, it’s that sort of thing have to sit down and really figure out – what is my message? What am I saying? really figuring out first, what’s a message that I can get behind? what’s the message that I care about? And once you have that, then I think it’s much easier to get to the passion and to be telling a compelling story.

AW:So we before we move on to getting into how to create this (how to bleed!) can you share with us one of the most epic failsthat you’ve witnessed?

AM: To me, what sets a presentation up as a failure is when there’s just there’s no clear message. I think of two presentations when I think of epic fails. And both of them did the same thing. Funnily enough, they both did a very specific thing, which is they give us a chronology of their life. So they said, You know, I started, this is where I’m from. And then I went here, and then I went to this school, and then I got this job. And as a listener, you’re sitting there thinking, why are you telling me?

AW: Yeah, I don’t care.

AM: Exactly. And I don’t understand what I am supposed to take from all of this information.

AW:Sorry to interrupt, but one of the things that I’ve learned from podcasting that I’ve heard is a “do not do ,”is do not ask your guests share their biography with the listeners, because the listeners don’t even know why they’re listening!

AM: Yeah, same thing, right. I think that’s, I mean, I think it’s absolutely right. We’re all so pressed for time. You know, human beings, we’re lazy listeners, we crave meaning. We want everything to mean something when we’re listening to a speaker, but we don’t want to have to do that work ourselves. And that’s something that you see, it’s a sin that I think you see a lot in presentations: presentations that begin with a simple topic statement.

So you say, you know, Hello, my name is Andrew Musselman. And I’m here to talk to you today about breakfast. And the problem of starting with a topic statement is it sets up an expectation with your listeners that they’re going to get a bunch of data, and they’re going to have to make sense of it all.Whereas we want to start with a message you say, I’m going to tell you why breakfast is the most important meal of the day. It’s a very clear baseline of this is what you’re going to get out of my presentation. And when you know that as a listener, it really incentivizes you to keep listening. You say okay, I know what I’m going to get out of this.

AW:So you’re queuing them with the question that they’re going to learn the answer to from you.

AM: Yeah, there’s that old adage. Have you ever heard this?  Tell them what you’re going to tell them. Then tell them. Then tell them what you just told them. And when you find that message, that main message of yours that should act like a touchstone, I think that you keep coming back to. So in an ideal world throughout the presentation, we should know right away what your main idea is. And throughout the presentation, we should feel like our understanding of that idea is deepening. So that was one big sin that I saw in those in those epic fail presentations was there was just no it was in this case, specifically all biography and no meaning no message to it.

AW:No take away.

AM: Yes. It’s never taking for granted that they’re going to find you interesting. You know, it’s never taking for granted that they just want to hear you talk for a while. You constantly have to be adding value and think about you know, specifically, again, this my main message now I keep touching back on it. But what is that idea or key takeaway? What’s the big idea that ties all this together?

AW:So I want to focus us here on specific context, which is when we are on stage, and we have an audience in real life in front of us, and a screen behind us. It’s probably PowerPoint or whatever it is just for content. This is where we’re focusing. And we’re first going to focus on preparation and the pulling together the content, and then we’ll move into the delivery.

So how to deliver the presentation. And my first question is really just about the preparation. And I know from my own experience, when I have lots of time, and when I spend lots of time, it really pays off. But we all have time constraints. So what are some of the most important things that we need to absolutely do to adequately prepare for giving a compelling presentation?

AM: I think, you know, what you’re saying completely resonates with me because I always advocate, you know, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. But that’s not always the reality. People don’t have that time always. So I think if you’re under time constraints that my key piece of advice would be just getting very clear on your message, just really know what your idea what your one main idea is, and your three or four supporting ideasthat you want your listeners to take away.

And if you get very clear on that, it at least gives you you at least feel anchored in what you’re going to say. Just feel like okay, I know what I want to leave them with.

And I also think that’s a great structuring hack to I mean, in terms of saving time, if you just think of that old pyramid principle, one message, three supporting points that come out of that message.And then you just develop point one, develop point two, develop point three, constantly tying back to the message. It’s a great way to structure a cohesive presentation, but it’s also a great way to save some time when you’re structuring your compelling presentation. So that’d be my first advice is just really be clear on your message. I can think of a client in the finance industry that I worked with.

And I mean, that was absolutely one of those cases where he got told, okay, you have to deliver a 25 minute pitch tomorrow and the night before he gets the deck sent to him. So we’re working on this deck, just trying to figure out okay, how can you go in there and be and keep your calm and make sure that you present a compelling cohesive case?

And we did that very back to basics work of what is the main message here? What is the one idea you want them to leave with? And then what are the three subcategories that develop that idea? And an exercise that we did? I don’t advocate presentations that go slide by slide by slide by slide because I think that can low your listeners into a bit of a sleep.

AW:Yeah. Which they’re probably used to in the finance industry.

AM: Absolutely. Yes. But I think you know, in this case, this guy got his deck the night before. So there we were having to figure out, okay, how do you speak to this deck? Which in some ways is a backwards workflow, if you ask me, but we you know –  you work with what you got. We looked at each slide with complex financial data on the slide.

And our thing was, what’s the main message of this slide? So why is this slide here? What do your listeners need to gain from this slide? Because if you know that, and if you have just that one little sentence written on each slide, at the very least, you avoid just simply reading the details of the slide right, which makes your listener go, why are we here? I can read these myself resend it to me and I’ll do my own time right here that a lot.

One other thing I’ll say is reminding yourself to pause. If people are under time constraints, and they have an hour to write the presentation and they may be read through it once they don’t have as much time to repeat and rehearsed and it’s very rare the person who responds to adrenaline by speaking too slowly. Most of us when we’re in front of a crowd, the nerves get going We race through it. So a big thing when you don’t have a lot of time to prepare is just reminding yourself pause, pause, pause in the middle of that compelling presentation. You’re never going to pause as much as you’re worried that you’re pausing, if that makes sense.

AW:And there’s so many reasons to do it right? As you’re saying that – I was just working on a podcast about breathing. It helps you relax and it let’s the audience internalize the message. They can read what’s on the slide!

AM: right. There’s great advice – she comes from the theater as well. Actually, her name’s Caroline Goyder, and she was a voice coach for years and years and she coached actors,. She coached at the Central School of Speech and Drama. And now she works with corporate clients. The way she articulates what you just said is :in speeches, you speak in the out breath. The in breath is thought. Taking that time to breathe in, it grounds, it centers you.

It dissipates the nervous energy, but it also just gives you time to think about what you’re going to say next. And it almost as importantly, if not, more importantly, gives your listeners time to think about what you just said so they can feel a part of it.So they’re not feeling like it’s just a transmission of non-stop information. So yeah, breathing and pausing. hugely important.

AW:And if you’re exhaling when you’re speaking, you are literally projecting, right? physically projecting.

AM: Yeah, that’s it. That’s a really interesting way of thinking about it. I mean, we’ll talk a little bit about this when we get to the delivery part of it. But I think what is so key in a presentation is feeling like it’s that two way dynamic, you know, feeling like it’s not just, I’m going to dump a whole bunch of data on you. And thanks very much. See you later, but that you’re speaking and at the very least, inviting the listeners to think and to respond. Right? So that you have that two way dynamic, that receiver driven dynamic.

AW:So you were talking about the structure of the presentation and the pyramid, which I love. Let’s move into creating slides or maybe I should just say creating the flow of the presentation. Do you have any general suggestions or basic do’s and don’ts?  Number of words on a slide or maybe…?

AM:  I can’t remember where I read this, but I did read somewhere that 40 words is the most you should have on a slide. I think that might have been Nancy Duarte,her claim to fame was she designed the PowerPoint for An Inconvenient Truth. She’s kind of the slide guru.

AW:That was incredibly visually compelling.

AM: Yes.

AW:And especially at the time, it was also very novel, the way it was presented.

AM: Yes. And I think that’s been a big shift. Since then, I mean, you could credit that presentation as being what caused the shift. But now, you know, you watch TED Talks, or you watch other presentations, there will be those slides. That is it’s an image reinforcing the message that the speaker is saying, so no words at all, just a picture. And I think that’s a great strategy. And there’s all kinds of data that you probably know this a lot better than I do, but a message that is reinforced with a visual, it leads to much greater comprehension and retention.

AW:Messages are better internalized through multimedia, right?

AM: basically. So In terms of designing the slides, going back to those epic fails, you asked me about both of the presentations I have in mind. They also had troubling visuals. And they were troubling for two reasons. One, the visuals themselves were complicated way too much information on each slide. And number two, way too many slides in general. So I think the big advice that I would have for slides is less is more.

AW:okay.

AM: Less is more. And I would always advocate, not everyone does this and it’s, you know, it’s okay. Everybody has their different style. I would always advocate get a pen and paper, write your message out first. A lot of people who say, I use PowerPoint to think it’s my it’s the way that I get into a presentation.

AW:I’ve heard that actually

AM: yes, and the trouble is, if that’s what you’re using it for, you’re going down a dangerous path of – it’s slide by slide by slide and you don’t have that overarching message. You don’t have that story that you’re telling, and that the slides are reinforcing. And that’s the other key thing. You the speaker are the primary vehicle for the information, the slides are there to back you up.So you don’t want to become you know, the human aid to your visuals. You should be making the point and having those visuals backing you up.

AW:You get to choose what they see and what they hear and what they don’t see and what they don’t hear. And you don’t have to share everything with them. Right? I mean, less is more is such a – it’s a great piece of advice.

AM: When you’re structuring your message, it’s a great piece of advice. When you’re writing out your content, it’s a great piece of advice. When you’re putting your visuals together. Just always, if there’s something you have a suspicion you could cut, cut it.

AW:What about incorporating audio and or video clips into a PowerPoint presentation? What do you think about that?

AM: I’m a big fan of incorporating audio and video. I would never say you should do it just for the sake of doing, you want to be absolutely clear that this is again – that it’s reinforcing your message.That it’s rising organically from the messageyou’re sharing with your listeners. But if there is a clip that you like, and that you feel really does a good job of either setting up something you want to talk about  or reinforcing something you’ve spoken about, I think it’s a great way to break up the flow of the presentation in a good way, a way to create a bit of nuance that just keeps people interested.

When I started up my company, one of the first things that I did, I had to go and speak to this real estate brokerage. A friend of mine, she invited me in, and she said to me, okay, here’s what you’re going to do: start with a video. And I said, Well, I mean, I’m here to talk about speaking. So I feel like I should just speak. And she said, nine times out of 10 if there’s no video content in the presentation, these agents they check out.

So I went and I found this video and I started with a video and I was thinking, I’m just doing this to appease this friend of mine. She knows best. And I enjoyed it so much that I have incorporated that video into a lot of other talks. Like when I’m introducing myself and telling people what’s my value proposition as a coach, I often will start with a video.

AW:So can I ask you what is in this video clipthat you share?

AM: Yeah, it’s a US politician by the name of Phil Davison. And he was running for county treasurer, I think. And it’s him delivering – he launched his campaign. He is so nervous. The passion, the adrenaline just completely consumed him. So he’s pacing around the stage, waving his finger around, pointing at his audience, screaming and shouting, because he’s just trying to convey passion, but it just completely overtakes him. Usually I do it as a fun introduction.

AW:so “I’m going to prevent you from doing this”?

AM: Yes. A reminder that it’s not just what you say. It’s also how you say it.

AW:Love it. So you talked about how incorporating the multimedia elements, the video and the audio, how it needs to be organic and natural. And I, I’m thinking of some presentations that I’ve witnessed where there’s sometimes a comic or a cartoon on one of the first few slides and it’s like, check, they’re trying to be funny, or they’ll try to tell a joke. Do you have any advice about incorporating humorand whether we should? especially if we’re not funny?

AM: Yes, this comes up in acting all the time too, because you go out for an audition and the description when you see this in the character description, you know, the character is extremely funny. It’s like a death knell.

AW:yeah.

AM: I always say stay in your lane. Remember, you’re there to share information and share a message with people. You’re not there simply to entertain them. I wouldn’t advocate ever putting pressure on yourself that you have to be funny in a presentation. I think to that, trusting: if there’s something that you find funny if there’s something that is humorous to you. And again, it doesn’t have to be Chris Rock funny where people are rolling around in the aisles. If there’s something, an anecdote from your family or a pet or something like that, and you find it humorous, chances are people are going to find it humorous as well.

AW:Well, this is reminding me of what you said about authenticity. You’re being authentic when you’re sharing your funny story if you find it funny.

AM: Yes, and I think there’s a bit of a cliche, but it’s a great icebreaker. It’s a great way to break down the barriers and instill some trust in your listeners because they see as you say, they see a bit of a small piece of your authentic self you are. So I would say incorporate the humor as long as you feel it naturally flows with your presentation. And as long as you genuinely find it funny. Don’t just do it for the sake of doing.

AW:Okay, so this is a perfect segue to the storytellingthing. Nowadays, especially and I don’t know what brought this on. But storytelling is such a hot topic and I feel like every presenter is compelled to include at least one story into their presentation? Can you talk about whether it’s necessary and if it is, how to do it?

AM: If you have a point that you’re trying to make, and you can illustrate that with a story, then I think, go for it, go for it 10 times out of 10, it’s always going to be more effective telling a story, rather than just giving information. There’s an old saying, connect first, then convince, and that’s what stories do stories connect with listeners on an emotional level first, and when you have listeners, when you’ve touched them emotionally, when you’ve connected with them on that level, then they’re primed and ready to receive information. And they’re primed and ready to see the world the way you want them to see it to see the world through your eyes.

AW:You’ve changed them a little bit.

AM: Yes. And there’s all kinds of great data as to why, how and why stories are effective. There’s this fascinating research that’s been done and it’s called brain to brain coupling, in which they hooked a bunch of people up to fMRI machines. The person telling the story, and then a bunch of people listening to the story. And the first thing they found was that our brains are much more active when we’re hearing a storyas opposed to when we’re just receiving information. When we’re receiving information that it’s the language processing part of the brain that lights up.

But when we’re hearing a story, it’s the language processing part. It’s also the emotional part, right? There’s the sensory part. It’s the motor skills part. There’s the same brain activity as if we were experiencing an event. But the really fascinating thing that they found in this exercise was: watching the brain activity was in the person telling the story, they saw that simultaneously the identical brain activity was happening in the listeners.

So you’re creating like a Vulcan-mind-meld with your listeners. Yeah, you are literally getting them to see the world through your eyes and that in that moment, you’re getting them to see the world in the same way. And then there’s also a lot of data around stories produce oxytocin, which is associated with empathy and cooperation, yeah.

AW:yeah. I was thinking the word Connect before. you’re connecting with them.

AM: absolutely. So there’s two strategies. One, incorporate stories into your presentation. But also when you’re thinking of how to structure a presentation – At its core, a story is a hero in pursuit of a goal in the face of great challenges. That’s it. I mean, it’s a formula that we’ve been using for thousands of years. So we know it works. And the reason it works is we like watching people or hearing about people who are striving for somethingwho are trying to affect change, trying to affect big change – survival or changing the way the world works, in a way.

So what you’re doing when you incorporate that element that that structure in your presentation, you’re giving your listeners something that they can root for, you know, you’re saying here’s who we are. This is what we’re really trying to do. This is the change we’re trying to affect or whatever the case may be. And when you get to that level, you give your listeners somebody to root for, or to put it another way, you Give them a reason to care.

AW:I was I think rationally convinced the storytelling is the right thing to do. I am 100% convinced now!

AM: Yeah, well, good.

AW:So, so one of the reasons that we tell stories, as you said, is to connect with them, but also to engage them. If we move on now to the delivering the presentation, one of the, I suppose many things that people are afraid of when they’re delivering, especially a really big important presentation is that they’re just going to lose the audience.

And you know, that feeling that maybe most of us have had at some point in our careers when we’re looking out at the audience. We see people picking up their phones, and texting and we see maybe a few people in the back of the room start to wander off, and maybe even chit chatting with each other. They’re definitely not making eye contact with you anymore. What are some of the tactics that we can employ to try to maintain engagement of the audience, assuming that we’ve already structured this presentation right?

AM: Well. one of the things you can think of with your delivery is nuance. So just varyinghow you’re speaking, you know, I mean, I’m a big heart on the sleeve guy. It’s a first thing we talked about in this interview was passion, you know, passion, energy conviction, but you can also think about having different levels. You don’t want everything to be up here where you’re, you know, frothing at the mouth and really, where you know, you don’t want everything to be fire and brimstone. You don’t want …

AW:right because then that becomes the baseline.

AM: Yes, and where do you go from there? Exactly. And anything that lacks nuance, no matter how compelling it is, at the outset, it’ll always lose the audience’s focus, they’ll stop paying attention if it’s all the same thing. So you can think of varying your style, your tone your rhythm, for no other reason than to just keep it interesting. And there are four P’s. This comes from the acting world.  

Four Ps that you can think of when it comes to new ones, and that’s pitch, pace, posture and projection. So pitch high or low, you know, you speaking in your normal register, you can say, however, there is an interesting thing, varying the pitch. It’s amazing how many presentations in the professional world have that monotone delivery? Mostly because we’re programmed to think I don’t want to be rude. I don’t want to intrude on anyone. So we think that showing emotion is a little bit taboo. We think it’s unprofessional.

AW:I was gonna say people think it’s unprofessional. Yeah.

AM: So that’s pitch. Paceis faster, slow, you know, you could slow certain parts down, take longer pauses when you want to emphasize points, your posture, you can literally if you’re a different section of your presentation, you can move to a different part of the stage or just vary the way you’re standing if you’re standing still in one one place, and then projectionis loud and soft. You know, obviously you want to always be heard, but sometimes if you want things to be really compelling, you can you can quiet your voice down. So nuance is a way to really get some of that audience engagement.

If things are going really dire, if you’re up there and you feel you know that you’re really losing them, and you want to skip a section or skip ahead, I would caution people against that, because you don’t want to skip ahead in a way where you then lose where you are in your speech and you and you get completely lost in it. But if you’re going to do that, if you’re if you’re feeling like they’re really not with me here, yeah, I need to skip ahead. I need to shut this down, basically. The one thing you should do before you move to the next section, is remind us of what the point was, and remind us of what your message is.

AW:So you know, for example, you mean the top level message?

AM: Yes. So, for example, you know, if you were giving a speech about the economy, and you were talking, it was, let’s say you were talking to a group of investors, and you’re talking about the current economic climate, your main idea is this is a time to shore up risk. Well, you might have a whole lot of data that backs them up, and you may be feeling that that data is losing them. So you think, Okay, I’m going to skip the rest of the data points and move on to the next section. But before you do that, you need to remind us that so again, because of the current economic climate, this is a time to shore up risk. Really, here’s why I’m telling you all this, and I’m going to skip all of this.

AW:Do you tell them what do you tell them that or does it depend?

AM: I always whenever you develop one of your main points, the last thing you should do, remind us of the point, tie it to your main message and then move on.

AW:But do you tell them about the point that you’re skipping? Do you say I’m going to go ahead now?

AM: Well, you know what? I say no, right away. But just the way you said that there.  Hmm. One of the best acting lessons I ever got was a teacher who said, you know, all we want from you on stage is to know that you’re in control.We feel that will go anywhere with you. So if somebody were to say, you know what, I’m going to skip ahead. If we don’t feel like they’re flustered. If we don’t feel like that has crushed them on the inside a little bit. That’s fine. I don’t think you’d need to say it. But if you do say it, keep your confidence, and just roll on.

AW:It depends on your tone. Right?

AM: Yes.

AW:not in an angry way. You’re just saying, based on what I’m seeing here, we should move ahead, not “you people,” shaming them.

AM: You know, and actually that that’s a really good point that you make – that by doing that ,what you’re really doing is showing empathy with your listeners that you’re really creating that connection of saying it’s a sort of a servant-leadershipmodel. Hey, I’m here for you. So if we’re not liking this, that’s okay. Let’s move on.

AW:You reminded me of some board speeches that I’ve heard where the person who’s giving the presentation is actually doing so just before a meal, just before dinner, or just before lunch? And they’ll say I’m sure you’ve heard this. I know I’m the only thing that’s standing between you and lunch. So I’m going to make this snappy, right? And everyone’s like, Oh, thank you.

AM: Yeah, yeah. There’s a book called Compelling People. And one of the things that the author talked about is “getting into the circle.” They say the first thing you need to do with your listeners is get inside their circle, show them that you empathize with them, show them that you understand their point of view, whatever the case may be. But their point is when you do that, when you start with that little bit of a connection with them, then they’re much they’ll trust you. Really that’s what you’re doing – earning their trust. And you’re sort of basically saying, I got you, I’ve got you through this, our interests are aligned.

AW:That makes sense.

AM: The other thing I’ll say is that you should also trust yourself when it comes to: Am I losing the audience’s focus and attention? One of the things that nerves does to us is it affects our mindset. And we are our own harshest critics. So when we’re up there, our read on that particular situation may not always be accurate. You know, I’m sure we’ve all had moments. I know, I’ve had many moments where I think, oh, that was a disaster. And then somebody comes up and tells you how great it was. I mean, unfortunately, there are less common but times where you think, Hey, that was great. And somebody goes, not so much, right? But I think you know, really trusting in what you preparedis also something I would advocate that that being up there and saying, hey, somebody checked their phone.

Maybe it’s not about me, maybe they got a lot going on and they just really need to check their phone right no. Maybe the other 90% of the room is still really with me. So I’m going to trust what I prepared and move through it. You don’t want to be too at the whim of the audience in that respect. You want to be the one who’s in control. And so I think that’s another piece of it is trusting what you’ve prepared and trusting that it’s resonate.

AW:It’s a real fine balance, right? being empathetic and getting into their circle, but then also being in control of what’s going on.

AM: hmm. It is. And it that makes me think, and I want to see if I can answer that because it’s a real fine balance. You know, it’s a little bit like the humor aspect to that you mentioned. If something’s funny to you, trust that it’s going to be funny to your listeners. If you’ve done that work and structured something that you think this is a valuable message and these are ideas that I really want to share with them. Then trust that this is going to land with them.

You know, we’re not usually that poor at our gauging of what people will and won’t find interesting. If it’s interesting to you, it’s probably going to be interesting to somebody else. And another thing that I can say about keeping your audience engaged and the biggest thing, but something that we should all remind ourselves is to be conversational, when we’re giving a presentation.

What that really means is creating that two way dynamic where you’re making the listeners feel like they’re a part of what you’re saying. The two big ways you can do that are pausing, and eye contact, you know, eye contact, to show them your personality, show them that you’re connected to them, but also to show them that you’re checking in with them, that if you deliver an idea, you’re taking that pause to let them think about it.

AW:You care about their response.

AM: Yes, exactly. Right. There’s a tactic in the book that I mentioned before Compelling Peoplewhere they say, when you smile at people. It encourages them to smile back.

AW: mirroring. And nodding is the same way.

AM: That’s right.

AW:So we’re both sitting here nodding and smiling at each other!

AM: But there’s worse things than to have a room full of people smiling and nodding, when you’re up there delivering a presentation. Absolutely. So if you can find that pausing and that eye contact, marry that with a smile. You’re just really encouraging the listeners to be with you. You’re creating that two way dynamic.

AW:And that reminds me, I’ve heard this, and I heard this advice, actually, years ago, decades ago, find the person in the room that smiles and nods at you. It may be a nervous tic, but just appreciate them and look at them whenever you need them.

AM: Right. I was giving a workshop the other day and there was somebody in the in the workshop who you know (and this is so common), has a pretty debilitating fear of this stuff – of speaking in front of people. And she said, Every time I present, I pick one or two allies in the room, and I tell them beforehand, I’m going to be looking at you the entire time. And then she even will sometimes choreograph where they sit so she says you sit over here and you sit over here.

AW:smart.

AM: She said to me, what do you think about that? And I said, I think it’s great. Yeah, anything that helps, I mean, that future version of yourself that has to stand up in front of people and give a presentation. That’s the person who has the difficult job. So anything that makes that person’s job easier, go for it.

AW:So you were talking about creating a feeling of almost having a conversation with the audience and doing that by pausing and creating eye contact? What about encouraging explicit interaction? so encouraging questions,and I’m assuming interaction is a good thing, but why do some presenters say please hold your questions to the end? I always wonder about that.

AM: I wonder about that, too. Okay. I mean, I think it depends on the format. You know, if you’re giving a presentation that is a little bit more formal, you know, you’re in front of a couple of hundred people. That’s probably a presentation where you want to speak for your 15 or 20 minutes and then field questions after having said that, I still don’t think it’s necessary to say hold your questions to me.

AW:It sounds so administrative almost.

AM: it’s like you’re admonishing the audience right off the top.

AW:So yeah, I think that’s what bothered me about it, actually, because I understand in some contexts, you’re right. If you’re in an auditorium, if you’re giving a lecture at a university, and it is actually a lecture format, and then there’s a Q&A, people know that. And if someone puts their hand up, you can say, I would love to answer your question, but I’ve just got three more minutes, and then you’ll be the first person. And then, everybody knows you’re paying attention to them.

AM: Actually, that’s great, I mean, I hadn’t thought of doing that. But if somebody doesn’t know that they shouldn’t ask Qs, which I’m with you, that’s very rare. People usually get the gist of it. Oh, this is not interactive. But yeah, same thing. Keep the control. You’re up there, you see it. Don’t ignore that the person’s hand has gone up, but just politely say,

No, I think we’ll wait. Regardless of the format. One way you can encourage interaction is by asking for it. I know that sounds so basic.  But I liked that tactic, provided again, that it works with your message and that doesn’t feel forced. You could also ask your audience a question. Ask them to picture something or imagine something. Take a poll with a show of hands. That kind of thing.

AW:I like that, you know, it gets them engaged, gets them feeling like they’re part of it. While you’re still keeping the control. You’re not letting them talk about whatever they want to talk about. You just answered the next question that I was going to ask you, which is what happens if you are encouraging people to ask questions, and they don’t. And I think what I’m hearing is, you could change it to be a more specific question. Like, how many of you think -whatever – motivating people to raise their hands?

AM: And yeah, I think that’s a great one.  But full disclosure. I’ve never advocated that until just now. But I think it is a great Q&A strategy that maybe the speaker comes prepared with some questions. You know, obviously you want to address questions that are there, but if there aren’t questions, you can always ask questions that are variation on the theme.

What did you take from that?You know, you don’t want to obviously say what do you think of my presentation? Right? Really what you’re saying is, look, this was the idea. How does that idea resonate with you? or What did you think about this statistic when I gave it or — you can kind of steer that interaction. And there’s also, if you’re talking about a  Q&A at the end, I mean, if nobody asks a question, you can also just move on, and say, thanks very much. That’s it.

AW:Yeah. I’ve seen that too. And sometimes it’s, it’s, I think, some speakers who asked if there’s any questions, and the answer is basically no, there aren’t and they can skillfully say, Well, I guess that went well. Then they’re just saying, Okay, everyone got it. Great. Yeah.

AM: That’s a great tactic.

AW:Yeah, that’s excellent. If you can deliver it without sounding arrogant. So what are some of the most common mistakes that speakers make when they’re on stage?

AM: I think again, I’m going to talk about pausing. Conversational styleis always the first thing I’ve worked on with clients whether I’m doing private coaching or in a group or workshop, because when we’re up there, it is so difficult to remember to pause because our adrenaline is coursing through us and our time perception is off.

So we think we’ve paused but we haven’t really paused. If I were to name those two sins, it’s running your thoughts together. So where you don’t give your listeners time to think about what you’ve said, it’s also talking while thinking, – you’re just kind of on autopilot, rambling through your slides. And that is what sets up for the listeners to think,what am I doing here?

AW:Yeah, I don’t need to be here. I could be reading something instead.

AM: Right. Why don’t you just email me this and I’ll do this on my own time? So that’s a big sin. I think another sin there’s in terms of how we’re perceived, it all comes back to our most primal survival instincts. You know, we take the non verbal data that we get from people, and we use it to put people into one of four categories. We see them as potential friendpotential threat, potential mate, or we’re indifferentto them.

AM: AW:I hadn’t heard that. That’s great. I love these frameworks.

AM: Yeah. So you take those four and you say, Okay, well, there’s only one category when I’m up in front of people that I want to get myself into. And that’s potential friend. And even that can create a bit of a mindset shift for some speakers, because we often put this pressure on ourselves, I’ve got to be impressive. No, you’ve got to be relatable.

AW:Yeah, that’d be trustworthy?

AM: And there’s two criteria that we evaluate people on to put them into those categories. The first one is strength.And that probably doesn’t come as a surprise to many people. Because if you say, what do you think makes somebody a good public speaker? Nine times out of 10, the answer you’ll get immediately is confidence.And we’re going to get into that. So, confidence that’s the strength, peace, confidence and capability.

The other criteria that we evaluate people on is warmth.And we actually again, thinking about our primal survival instincts, we evaluate warmth. First, we put more emphasis on warmth. If you think about it, somebody who is projecting a lot of strength and no warmth, that’s a person that can actually be quite dangerous. And that can represent a threat to us. So you want to think about projecting both strength and warmth.And the interesting thing is when you think about warmth, it conjures up kind of a Mr. Rogers type of image you think, you know, gentle and soft and kind, and that’s part of it.

But warmth is also energy. Warmth is passion, warmth, is dedication, warmth is commitment,. I’s anything that makes you listen. I really care about what I’m saying. And that leads me in a very roundabout way to another big sin that I see. A big kind of mistake that you see in presentations is people are afraid to reveal that connection to their material. They think that if they show any emotion at all, it’s unprofessional.

AW:Really.

AM: Yes. And I think people want to just be factual and professional. And you know, you don’t want to be delivering the speech from the movie Braveheart, but having a bit of I care about this, and letting your listeners know that it means something to you. I mean, if you want to have your listeners be engaged, the first step is you have to be engaged. Right? So that has to do with your voice. It has to do with your energy or your focus, all of that. All of that I think is tremendously important.

AW:I really like that framework. I feel like you’ve got the passion, you’ve got the authenticity, you’ve got your cohesive message, before you start actually writing it out. You want to remind yourself, you are the friend and you are the friend because you have strength and you have warmth. In other words, I’m going to say the strength is capability or knowledge or expertise, right?

AM: Yes.

AW:And then the warmth is the positive affect. And speaking as a psychologist, right?

AM: yeah. And you know, if you think you’re absolutely right, if you think back to when we were cave people, the warmthis: I mean you no harm, and the strengthis: I can be a benefit to you.Those are people we want to welcome into our circle. Somebody who has high warmth and not a lot strength. That’s somebody you might think, well, they don’t mean any threat, but I’ll be indifferent to that person that I don’t need them in my circle. There’s actually I mean, it’s pretty fascinating.

There’s corresponding emotionsthat they pinpoint with this to high strength, low warmth, that instills fear or envy. And high warm flow strength instills pity. The one that I found really surprising was low strength, low warmth. Again that I would think that was pity but in actual fact, it’s contempt. It’s awful to think of, you know, you think, those poor people, but no, no, the physiological emotional response that we have is contempt.

AW:disdain?

AM: And people who are high strength, high warmth, they project — they say– admiration. I say trustworthinessbecause I think the key to being persuasive is winning your listeners trust. So if you show them, I mean you no harm, and I can be a benefit to you. You’ve got the trust right away.

AW:Yeah, I like your trustworthiness. Yeah, that’s good. Thank you… So you said that nine out of 10 people are really concerned about their confidence. And I have to tell you that I’ve asked many of my friends and colleagues, what to ask you about how to give a compelling presentation and 100% of them, the first thing that they said was, how to exude confidence. So actually how to feel confident, but then also how to demonstrate confidence. Do you have any pointers for the listeners on that?

AM: I do.

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The post #47 HOW TO DELIVER A COMPELLING PRESENTATION with Andrew Musselman appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How about some biohacking tips to boost your immunity and to fight off viruses like Covid-19? Biohacker Oksana Andreiuk (M.Biotech) shares her advice on boosting your immunity through specific biohacks associated with sleep, nutrition and supplements, exercise, stress management, taking a cold shower, and intermittent fasting. Biohacking is modifying your internal and external environments to take better control of your own biology. In this time of social distancing, Talk About Talk advocates physical distancing and being creative and proactive about maintaining our ever-important social connections. Stay healthy everyone!

Oksana Andreiuk, onstage sharing biohacking tips

Tosca Reno – The 3s of Wellness

(Transcribed by https://otter.ai)

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise today. Oksana.

Oksana Andreiuk: Oh, this is so great. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited for our conversation.

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Oksana Andreiuk

AW: Me too. So I have to start by asking you, what is a biohacker?

OA: Love that question. So what comes to mind often, people think, Oh, you know, are you inserting chips into your body? Or it sounds scary or very technical. But it’s not at all. A bio hacker is anyone who’s trying to optimize their mental and physical health performance. And so biohacking is a term can be defined as the art and science of modifying your internal and external environments to take better control of your own biology. And what I find exciting is that we now have the technology available to us and all the tools to quantify and monitor our biomarkers. But at the at the root of it, biohacking is really getting the fundamentals right and optimizing how you feel every day.

AW: I know from your biography that you’ve made this your life work you are highly educated in the field of biotechnology and you have the Canadian bio hacker meetup group. So why did you personally decide to become a bio hacker?

OA: I’ve always been into biotech and how can we use our technology to optimize our biology and how we feel and I’ve always had a focus on healthcare. You know, when I was in university, I never thought that I would get into biohacking or optimizing health to this extent, what really sparked my interest in it is discovering the field of medicine related to longevity science, which looks at treating aging as a root cause of chronic diseases. And you know, when I was in university that wasn’t really talked about there was genetics, there’s biotechnology, and that was my stream.

I was very interested in that. But when I discovered that, hey, there are all these scientists that are looking at treating aging as a disease. You don’t really hear about that because people just kind of assume that Oh, You know, aging is a natural is a natural process, and we’re all going to go through it. But the truth is, is that in 2013, we actually characterize what the cellular processes were of aging. So other cellular level, we now know what happens with the aging processes. And so there are all these companies that are working on aging solutions on reversing or slowing down the aging process.

And I thought, you know, if it’s gonna take them about 10 years or so to get something truly viable on the market, but I can start taking or using whether it’s a therapeutic or another solution, what can I do right now to optimize my own biology in the state of my health so that I’m at that prime health level when I get to that longevity solution, and so that opened my eyes to this whole field and area of biohacking. But as I mentioned, you know, at the root of it, it’s just about optimizing your mental and physical health performance. And so it doesn’t need to be something extreme or scary or something that takes up all a lot of time it’s being mindful of your daily habits and how you’re taking care of your health on a more preventive level.

AW: when you were defining biohacking, I was thinking that a lot of athletes are probably biohacking. Right? So they’re doing everything they can to…

OA:  Absolutely. Yeah, athletes are a great example of biohacking. And really anyone you know, if you’re, if you’re mindful about your nutrition and exercise and how you’re sleeping like you’re already biohacking, I think most of us are actually biohacking without realizing it.

AW: So I have a question for you then what is your main goal as a bio hacker?

OA: I mean, I’m hoping to live to at least 150 years, there are some exciting developments in the fields of longevity science that are actually looking to reprogram cells using epigenetics that will essentially reverse our age back to about 20 years at any point that we want, so potentially 150 years is very conservative.

AW: That’s amazing than I have not even come close to hitting midlife.

OA: That’s why this is gonna go on who knows, you know all the things that we want you to be able to fit into our lifespan.

AW: Okay, so bring it on, tell me what some of the main things are that I can do to optimize, I guess, maximize my lifespan and optimize my health.

OA: So number one, I always say sleep. It’s the number one thing that anyone can do and we’re living in a sleep deprived generation and time. Over the past hundred years, we’ve actually reduced our average night’s sleep by about 15 to 20%. So imagine that 100 years ago, people were getting on average two hours more of sleep every night than they do now. That’s huge. You know, it’s it seems like such a luxury to be thinking, Oh, you know, someone could be averaging nine hours of sleep a night. That seems crazy.

AW: So what’s happening inside our body that is so important when we’re sleeping? Why? Why would I choose to spend more of my time on this planet sleeping?

OA: Sleep affects every single bodily system, your cardiovascular health, your metabolism, your ability and stamina to exercise that day, which actually has a feedback loop because if you exercise you sleep better, and if you sleep better, you have more energy to exercise and affect our hunger levels as well. If you’re sleep deprived, your body is going to want to store more energy. And so you’re more prone to overeating as well. That affects your mental health, your emotional control how you communicate, so you know anything to do with the brain. There is not one system in your body that doesn’t benefit from more sleep, or doesn’t get negatively impacted by a lack of sleep, essentially. So sleep is number one for longevity, I would say.

AW: So you I didn’t want to interrupt you there. But you mentioned one of my magic words communicate you said so sleep affects how you communicate, can you share with us how sleep affects our interactions and social lives?

OA: For sure, yeah. So with sleep, it affects your emotional control, right? How you respond to those around you, you may be you know, a little bit more cross have a shorter fuse, but also being able to read other people’s emotions. So your emotional intelligence gets affected with your ability to scan the room or you know, read the person you’re speaking to and what they’re feeling. It also affects how people interact with you as well. So there was a study done with people seeing faces of sleep deprived individuals, and they were asked to rank them, so sleep deprived to not sleep deprived, and those who were sleep deprived in their picture, our brains are actually able to register someone who is a little bit sleep deprived. And what that tells us is, we don’t really want to communicate with those people.

We don’t want to interact with them. It tells our brain to kind of avoid them or you know, maybe that person is sick, or something’s not right with them. And so it’s very-  it’s such a wild concept. I found it fascinating because it’s not something that happens at a conscious level. It’s very subconscious. It’s those micro signals that our brain is just picking up automatically. You know, you, it’s hard to just kind of pinpoint, oh yeah, that person got four hours of sleep per night for sure. But our brain is able to do this. So when you’re sleep deprived, it’s not only that you are communication with others is affected, but how other people perceive you and how much they want to interact with you as well.

AW: Amazing, amazing. So I want to get into that both I guess the quantity so the number of hours that we should be striving for and as well as the quality of sleep you and I spoke a little bit offline about that when we met you were talking about how important it is to ensure you have quality sleep. Before we get into that nitty gritty I just want to mention the elephant in the room and that is the corona virus and Covid-19 and based on your biohacking. I’m sure you have some very strong and well informed opinions. about things that we should be doing and maybe even things that we should not be doing.

OA: For sure. Yeah. So with any type of virus we’re always going to go through these winter seasons where a lot of people are getting sick or picking things up, the best thing is keep your immune system as much as you can. And so number one, again, I go back to sleep. So with sleep, even one night of four hours of sleep, reduces your immune system function by up to 70% for the next day.

AW: Wow. thats huge.

OA: and for someone who is gets about five hours of sleep per night, for the previous week, they’re about at a 50 50% risk of contracting the common cold if they’re exposed to it, versus someone who has been getting an average of eight hours of sleep. They have about an 18% risk if they’re exposed to the virus. So that’s huge, right? Like, do you want to be the person Your expose, your body has a 5050 chance of contracting the virus or do you want it to be at around 18%?

AW: Anytime that sounds compelling, but right now it’s imperative. Right?

OA: Exactly, exactly. And I know it’s hard. But hopefully now with a lot of people working remotely to a with that reduces the amount of hours you’re spending and commuting. Maybe you can buy a little bit of more sleep time, fingers crossed. So sleep is absolutely imperative. And then nutrition, of course, so watching what type of foods you’re eating, so less processed food, avoid sugar, focus on whole foods that are nutritious to your body, about something about 16 to up to 70% of our immune system comes from our gut health. And so supporting our gut with proper nutrition is just so important for immune function as well.

AW: Can you describe what a healthy gut is? I mean, you just you just said less sugar less processed foods.

OA: Yeah, so I mean, everyone’s microbial or gut health looks a little bit different, their profile will be a little bit different. But avoiding sugars is a big one for sure.

AW:  Okay, so refined sugars. And then also, I guess any kind of simple carbohydrates, just keep them to a minimum.

OA: Yes, especially closer to sleep. So avoid eating about three hours before bedtime, that will be optimal. If you do then at least avoid simple carbs and sugars. Focus more on complex carbs. So an example of a simpler carb would be bread versus a sweet potato would be a more complex card.

AW: So you said Try not to eat within three hours of going to bed.

OA: Yes. So you want to be focusing on recovery while you’re sleeping. So our bodies are constantly in either state of growth or repair. And so when we’re putting nutrients in our bodies, or it signals to our bodies that Okay, it’s time for growth, you know, you’re metabolizing you’re utilizing those nutrients, your body’s not really focusing on repair so much and so Especially when you’re sleeping, that is such a critical time of recovery for like full body regeneration when you’re sleeping and so try to avoid going to sleep on a full stomach because that can affect your sleep quality, and also your ability of your body to repair while you’re sleeping.

AW: Okay, so we’ve got sleep hygiene, we’ve got quantity of hours of sleep, we’ve got nutrition in particular reducing our glycemic index not eating before we go to sleep and just reducing sugar. What else?

OA: I would also say avoiding deficiencies in proteins and micronutrients. So this is where supplements can come in as well. And I’m always a little bit careful with supplements because people should be using supplements as supplements or at least you know, that’s my stance on it. We shouldn’t be replacing whole foods with supplements but to boost the immune system, there are supplements that you can incorporate into your diet namely, vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, vitamin B. Glutathione is a great supplement as well. So that is kind of like the big antioxidant, and NAC (N-Acetyl L-Cysteine) you can buy the supplement. It’s actually a precursor to the amino acid cysteine and it’s also great for respiratory problems as well. So when we’re dealing with a respiratory type of virus going on, NAC could be a great supplement to incorporate as well. So trying to keep the energy up and ensuring you have the micronutrients in your body as well to fight off any virus or infection.

AW: I think this is great advice, especially for the age that we’re living in right now with the corona virus. So you know what I’m going to ask you when we go offline, I’m going to ask you to email me a list of what the specific supplements are that promote immunity, and then I’ll include them in the show notes so people can just click on it and see what they are. That would be really helpful.

OA: Yeah, for sure. I’m sure I’m missing some right now. But I’ll email you a list.

AW: That’s great. Thank you. What about other things? Like what about exercise? What about socializing? Any other?

OA:  Sure, yeah. So there’s, you know, the basics for me are, how you’re sleeping, how you’re eating, how you’re moving and how you’re managing our stress. So I covered the first two, but exercises absolutely so important for your immune system, it boosts your immune system function. For exercise, I would say HIIT training is the most effective, so high intensity interval training. And it combines a little bit of cardio, a little bit of strength training, and it just kind of gets the best bang for your buck in terms of the amount of time spent exercising and the effects that you get versus other forms of exercise.

So if someone’s looking for a quick workout routine to do at home training is great and there are so many free youtube videos available to I’m working remotely right now as well and you know, doing the social distancing and isolation and it’s just such a great repository, you just look online, okay, YouTube video, let’s go 30 minutes you got your mat, do a quick workout and you can you know, get back to work and can be a great break throughout the day or whenever you have the time.

AW: That’s amazing. I have to tell you this afternoon I actually we created a zoom meeting with a bunch of girlfriends and one of them had her screen showing an online workout and we all did the workout together. It was so fun. We said, so it’s not social. We are physically distant from each other. But we’re still being physical and we’re definitely being social.

OA: Yeah, I love that. The yoga studio that I go to, they sent out a notice that they’re going to be doing virtual classes now too. So such a great idea. And it actually goes into stress management too. So I find Yoga is so great for helping to wind down and I find that my sleep metrics are always a little bit better on the evenings that I do some form of yoga in the evening. It helps to power down and lower stress, but also you know, meditation or breathing exercises can help manage trust, too. Especially at a time like this, where you want to be boosting your immune system and kind of getting your cortisol levels down as possible, because there’s just an onslaught of media news and, and, you know, having everyone in the house, so it can be a very anxious time, especially right now.

AW: So that’s a great point about the cortisol. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine, who’s in great shape talking about high interval training, she’s intense woman anyway, and she’s, and she said, You know, I have this craving to do yoga. So her body was probably craving just to breathe deeply.

OA: Exactly. And it’s a great point to that you bring up because, you know, cardio training is great from an exercise standpoint, but sometimes when you do vigorous exercise, it can kind of get your body a little bit, you know, more worked up. And if you’re already on high alert, it can be a little bit much. So it’s important to kind of have that balance, too. So that’s a great point, adding yoga into your routine as well.

AW: I think tomorrow I’m going to do yoga. So before we move on To the five rapid fire questions, I want to get a little bit personal. If you don’t mind, I’m guessing that the listeners would be curious to know how old you are.

OA: Before we get into that, can I add another immune booster, please?

AW: Bonus

OA: Bonus. So another great one is cold showers and intermittent fasting. So, cold showers are probably an unpopular one, but it’s so worth that and I find that your body gets so used to it so quickly and it’s a great immune booster. You know, even for me, if I take a long break from doing cold showers, I’m just like, I don’t want to do this at all. Everything every cell in my body just doesn’t want to go through it. So with cold showers, a great biohacking tip is trying to do the cold shower right after a workout, your body’s really worked up and kind of heat it up your blood flows going. So it can be a little bit more tolerable to do the cold shower at that point.

And also, you know, you don’t have to go to the maximum cold temperature right away you can build up Your tolerance day by day. And so start with a cold shower not super cool, but you know cold where it’s going to be a little bit uncomfortable and start with your feet. So this is this is a common misconception that you have to just like go into the shower and let the water hit you know, when the cold water hits your head first your body kind of goes into this hyperventilation mode of like something’s not right, you know, my head is called This is uncomfortable, and it kind of freaks out. But if you start with your feet and kind of body part by body part, work your way up and breathe through it. So take a breath in, and then as you breathe out, move up the water, but a lot more tolerable, just helps your body not freak out

AW: What is it about the cold water that helps our immune system though.

OA: So one of the things that it does is first of all boosts the immune system but also increases or activates fat adipose tissue stores. And so it causes our bodies to kind of up it’s homeostasis.  So it’s it’s thermogenesis. It’s balancing and managing fluctuations in your body. I’m probably butchering the explanation here. Essentially one of the one of the things with cold showers too is when you get out of the shower, allow your body to warm up on its own, because it really activates your body’s natural system of recalibrating if you will. And so that’s that’s one of the things but other than that, yeah, so with intermittent fasting, what’s happening there is you’re activating autophagy.

So cellular autophagy is a process where your cells are clearing out any cellular waste, any damaged cells, damaged proteins out of your body. And as they mentioned, your body’s constantly in a state of growth or repair. So if you finish eating three hours before bedtime, you’re essentially starting your intermittent fast until the next morning. And so you’re not only basing the recovery while you’re sleeping, but when you’re intermittent fasting, which essentially means you’re limited Your food intake into about like a 10 hour window or so or some people do less. But for women especially, I would stop at around 10 hours when you’re eating wouldn’t decrease that window any less.

AW: I’ve heard eight to 10. you’re recommending 10.

OA: Yeah, for women, I would say just based on the research that I’ve seen for men, it actually is seems that fasting for longer in a day has more benefits for women long term, and not for all women. Of course, it’s so personal. But that’s essentially what aging is, is that accumulation of damage in your body, that time then becomes a pathology. And it’s much easier to prevent damage than to try to reverse damage that’s already happened.

AW:  That’s true. You’re reminding me of some research that I’ve read. And I think I saw a TED talk about this. One of the main predictors of longevity is actually your social circle, right. In some of the Blue Zones on this planet where people are living for a long time, they do identified that they’re social. Do you know? Do you know about the research on that?

OA: So yeah, that’s a great point. And I think for your listeners to, that’d be really interesting to check out to looking at Blue Zones by David Buettner. He’s done a lot of research into that he has a few books out and a TED talk as well. So that’s what they found is there are certain parts of the world where people they have a higher density of people who live to 100 years and over. And so they looked into what are some of the things that they’re doing? How are they eating, you know, what is their lifestyle, like and found some commonalities and social, you know, social circles and social support was definitely a strong had a strong correlation with longevity. So I love your point about you know, getting on, on zoom on webcam with your friends, and you know, your social distancing. But that doesn’t mean you have to cut off your communication with your social circle because social support is so important to longevity.

AW: Yeah, you know, I saw someone, I kinda stole that idea last night it was on Twitter and someone posted hashtag social distancing is not what we need. We need hashtag physical distancing. Yeah, that’s true. And then people were Oh, no, you’re being it’s just semantics. I’m like, no. I think the point is that we need to maintain proactively maintain our social relationships, especially nowadays when we’re cut off from people physically.

OA: Absolutely. Yeah. Mental health is so important. Yeah.

AW: Okay, so let’s get into the personal stuff then.

OA: All right.

AW: You’ve deflected the age question now. Y’all noticed.

OA: I came up with two more! haha.

AW: So you’re not going to tell us how old you are?

OA: Oh, no, yeah, I’m happy to share I’m 28 years old. And that is my chronological age. But my biological age which I just got tested, it’s called DNA age. If anyone is interested in testing there’s there are a few different test kits out but that’s the one that I did: MyDNAge. You showed us 24 years old. So it is amazing to see that I’m essentially, you know, four years younger biologically, I was it was so scary opening up the results. Report in my inbox, I kind of stopped there like, boy, when I click this button, reveal it or not, because you really don’t know how it’s what it’s gonna turn out to be. And so I was I was curious to see what it was I’m happy with the result. But now my next goal is can I get that down to 20?

AW: Amazing. Well, congratulations. But you know, I’m not surprised because you’re implementing research-based hacks, right? It’s not like you’re doing stuff that’s flaky or whatever, you’re actually reading the research. And you. You mentioned tracking sleep metrics. And when I met you in person you were telling me about, you were said you were I think you said you were doing the keto diet and every month you were doing your blood testing. So can you share a little bit with us about some of the things that you’ve done that you think of made a difference in what you’re measuring.

OA: Yeah, so with the keto diet, I’m, I can’t share all the results yet because I’m still doing this four month experiment. But yeah, so I started the keto diet. almost four months ago, I committed four months away because it takes your body about 16 weeks to become fully fat adapted. so committed to four months, I did all my biomarker testing. So my blood labs, I did my hormone panel, I did this biological age as well, before I started the keto diet.

My goal with the keto diet is to improve my insulin sensitivity and improve my glucose metabolism as well. So we’ll see what the results show but yeah, to your point every month, I’m also doing a prolonged fast and while I’m doing the prolonged fast and measuring my both my ketones and my blood glucose levels, with a monitor and mapping those curves, so it’ll be interesting to see in month to month how those curves change.

AW: So I have two questions related to that. One is, are you sharing the results of this publicly? Or are you blogging about it on your website?

OA: We’ll see what results show but yes, that is my that is the intent is to share that out. It’s information and it’s spreading awareness and different things that I’m trying that might be useful information for someone else. So I’m always happy to share on my social channels and constantly sharing whatever I’m learning, I share out that information. So I’m hoping to do the same thing with this four month experiment yet.

AW: Yeah, I can’t wait to see what your results are. I’m already following you on social media, but I’ll put the link so that the listeners can as well. And my the other part of my question is are you going to continue to do all of the testing after you’re in the maintenance phase of keto because I’ve heard a lot of people say keto works when you’re on it, but then you when you shift to the maintenance phase, and then you go off it. Sometimes you rebound back to you know your your pre diet weight or you actually gain weight. So are you gonna keep tracking?

OA: I’m, you know what I’m hoping to switch to a cyclic dive between keto and carbs. Again, if you like that one, you have to fiddle around with it and see what works for you. So I’m going to need to figure that out across the road. But I will keep testing my biomarkers. I mean, even before this diet, I was getting my full blood panels done every year, and just tracking those slight changes in my biometric data. But what the reason why I went on the ketogenic diet wasn’t for weight loss, it was really to improve the insulin sensitivity just from a hormone health standpoint. So it’ll be interesting. Yeah, my year to year to see how it fluctuates or if the improvements lost. And again, I’m happy to share that out what I learned as well along the way.

AW: Yeah, I’m excited to to track to watch your progress. You know, I was thinking what I was doing putting together some of the questions for this interview that I, I hope that we can do another podcast sometime when you know Covid-19 is ancient history and coronavirus is wiped off the face of the planet. We can get into all the details about things like sleep hygiene, and I know you’re a huge proponent of that.

I think, honestly, we could do an episode, which is what we were originally planning to do, right just sleep hygiene and affects our social life and what you know so much statistics and research on that and you have so many great biohacking tips, but we’ll save that for another episode. Is there anything before we move on to the five rapid fire questions that you want to add? And I specifically focused on, you know, this time of social distancing or physical distancing and the Covid-19 virus?

OA: I mean, I would say take care of yourself and I feel like mental health is so important too. You know, I’ve been going out on my balcony. Getting some sunshine on my face and getting that straight vitamin D from the sun. I think, you know, cutting off digital communication for a period of time during the day can be so helpful as well, because especially now that everyone’s working remotely, that’s how most of your communication is happening, right?

Like before someone was working in an office, you’d have more of those personal discussions in the hallway or someone comes by your desk. Now it’s all digital. And it can feel like a lot sometimes because you have your work emails and zoom calls and messages, slyke, WhatsApp, your personal digital channels, too, it can be a little bit overwhelming. And then you add in all the media and the news headlines that you get so carving out a little bit of time, during the week or even during the day where you just kind of disconnect and reconnect with yourself can be so helpful and it’ll improve your sleep too.

AW: Back to the sleep hygiene. I love it. I think thank you for sharing that. It’s really, really important point. I I can tell you in our household, we’re really fighting hard to not fall into that kind of easy just playing on your phone and your laptop all day. We’re trying to come up with activities and taking turns, you know, making meals and playing games and having movie nights with with no phones. It’s tough though. It really takes a lot of discipline, but it’s really important.

OA: Yeah, yeah. That’s great. I agree.

AW:  Okay, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

OA: All right.

AW:  I’m not I’m not literally gonna fire something on you. Okay, first question. What are your pet peeves?

OA: This is a tough one because I feel like I try not to get too riled up by things that are out of my control. Like if someone cuts you off in traffic, it’s like Alright, well, that’s their life. I, I’d say a pet peeve is people not giving up their seat to pregnant women on the on public transit, not necessarily not necessarily health related, since that’s kind of our topic, but I see that all the time. Just kind of like, you know, just common courtesy and be polite, even if they say no, at least, you know, offer. It’s a nice gesture. But yeah, that’s, I’d say that’s a pet peeve because it kind of does rile me up.

AW: Okay, question number two, what type of learner Are you visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner?

OA: I would say I’m a visual learner. Like, I’m always a person, I need to take notes. Definitely not auditory. Even with podcasts. If I listen to a podcast, it has a lot of information, I will go home and re-listen to it and take notes on it and press pause, write it down, because even if I never look at those notes, again, just the fact that I wrote it down, helps me memorize or keep it in my head. Um, so in terms of learning, I would say visual, but then in terms of communication, I was thinking, you know, like, what, how would a visual learner communicate? I’m not quite sure I would say.

AW: Well, I was I was just gonna say You just reminded me when I first met you, it was when I saw you on stage, you were speaking at a panel. It was at a conference that was focused on food. And it was hilarious because you were sitting beside a gentleman who was a farmer. He was an organic farmer. And you were talking about, I can’t remember what you’re talking about, but you were freaking him out.

OA: I was talking bio-technology.

AW: Yeah, the two of you had this great rapport. And I instantly wanted to actually go and talk to both of you. And thankfully we did. So you’re great on stage.

OA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert?

OA: I would say social introvert. And maybe, I don’t know, you know, I’ve thought about this one quite a bit too. Because, again, I with my biohacking meetup group, I ended up starting the group and then suddenly I did 15 events in 15 months. And this was, you know, just in my free time that I was doing this as just a passion project, if you will, and I had people reaching out saying, There’s no way you’re an introvert Like friends of mine, saying, there’s no way that someone who’s an introvert just voluntarily will go up and speak in front of an audience and give these talks and you know, get all these social gatherings together.

But I feel like if I’m speaking on something I’m passionate about, it’s a little bit different. Where Yes, I’m getting a lot of my energy and I always feel like I need to recharge after events like that. I just kind of need to talk to anybody and give myself that time. But when I’m there, I’m having so much fun. I like I enjoyed so much and connecting with people at events and even when I go to just social gatherings that have nothing to do with biohacking or longevity.

I feel that when I’m there, I want to put my best energy forward. And so I want to enjoy my time there. I want to make those meaningful connections and so it almost like gets my energy up to be at those gatherings but then I do need to go home and kind of recharge and I can easily spend a full Just Home Alone doing research on different things and nerding out and I love that, you know, so I’m not sure it’s a social introvert I guess.

AW: I think that’s exactly what you are from. I mean, I’ve done a lot of research and reading on the social on the introvert and extrovert scale, and you are definitely describing someone who is an introvert, but your passion trump’s your introversion, right, so you said you feel energy when you’re on stage, but then you need to go recharge and and also your your friends are a little bit wrong, and I guess their definition of introversion, because that doesn’t mean social anxiety, right? It just means where you get your energy and you’re clearly not socially anxious. So that’s something else entirely shyness and yeah,

OA: yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was looking forward to your opinion on that because…

AW: The other thing is I ask it as a binary question. Are you an introvert Or are you an extrovert and I asked it that way to be provocative. The truth is that most of us are in the middle, right? But I think based on what you’ve told me, You are an introvert who also has this passion project where you get your energy also is from sharing information about your passion. So that’s fantastic.

OA: Amazing. Okay.

AW: Question number four – communication preference for personal conversation?

OA: Yeah. So you know what I would love to say, pick up the phone every time because nothing trumps that kind of personal back and forth communication that’s alive and in real time. But reality is everyone’s in different schedules. And everyone’s so busy. And so I definitely do schedule time to connect with close friends and say, Oh, right, can we have a phone call this week, we need to catch up, you know, and we’ll do that. But if it’s just day to day, then I find I’m usually using WhatsApp and again, because I have friends in different countries on different time zones, and so it’s just, it’s just faster to kind of send a message there and I would say Instagram too, but it’s, it’s a lot of times, you know, if someone is reaching out to ask a question, I’ll just respond to them there.

So let’s say yeah, like day to day, it’s what’s happened and Instagram, and then the other digital channels as well. Voice notes are helpful too, because then you know, you can get your thoughts out and they hear your voice and it’s a little bit more personal than just a text to Now, most communication channels offer that functionality. So I’m finding that in sending voice notes to but it takes some getting used to not not everyone’s into voice notes.

AW: Well, in the day, we used to call it just leaving a voice message right on your answering machine. Here I am highlighting the years between us, Oksana! Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most these days?

OA: Um, I would say the one that I would recommend the most is Dr. Peter Attia’s podcast, The Drive. I love that podcast because essentially it’s like learning from a clinician. It’s just so much great information and he explains it in such easy to understand terms. I feel like anyone can really listen to it without a strong scientific background. Some episodes do get a little bit more technical, a little bit deeper, but overall, I think it’s absolutely fantastic because he’s a, he’s a physician that does focus on longevity as well and sort of health optimization overall and more on the preventative health side. So I would recommend that one and the emails that he sends out are free to send us a lot of right there.

AW: I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. There’ll be lots of things that people can reference in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to say to the listeners?

OA: I would say come out to the next biohacking events. Once this corona-situation subsides, I would say look out for the next event. And in the meantime, I’m always sharing tidbits of information, anything I’m learning about optimizing physical and mental health on my social channels. So definitely check it out. And I look forward to connecting with everyone. If you have a question for me, feel free to reach out. I love talking about this kind of stuff.

AW: That’s great. Thank you. Thank you so much, Oksana for sharing your expertise. It really was a pleasure. Thank you.

OA: Thank you so much for having me. You had such fantastic questions. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

AW: Oh, good. I can’t wait to get this out.

THANKS for listening – and READING!

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The post #46 – BIOHACKING TIPS to Boost Your Immunity with biohacker Oksana Andreiuk appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you good at networking? Executive recruiter Sharon Mah-Gin shares her advice on how to be a better networker, including why it’s critical to attend events, how to thrive at small talk, how to leverage LinkedIn, and the ideal networking mindset.

Never Eat Alone

How to Win Friends & Influence People

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us, Sharon to talk about networking.

Sharon Mah-Gin: I’m delighted to be here. Thank you.

AW: My first question is with regards to context. Can you define networking for us, please?

SMG: Absolutely. You can Google it and you’ll find hundreds of definitions. But I’ve always tried to keep things simple. From my perspective, networking is the same thing as reciprocality. What do I mean by that? Networking is a mutual exchange of information, contacts, ideas. And it’s give and take, it’s not about scorekeeping. Like if I invite you to dinner 10 times, I don’t expect you to invite me to dinner 10 times. It is about you know, giving something back in return.

It’s reciprocal. And if you think about it, that is how the world works. The number one key thing I say about networking, is when I’m coaching executives or young university students, I say, “what is it about networking that you’re so afraid off?” And they go “I feel like I’m begging!” I’m like, “excuse me, that is totally wrong.” True networking, it’s not about you. It’s how can I help you? In other words, help the other person. That is what I would consider to be true networking.

AW: nicely put. So when you refer to networking in terms of reciprocality, you’re inferring that there is value that is being exchanged

SMG: Correct. Yes.

AW:  So what could the value be? Or the benefits?

SMG: Great question. That could be an exchange in terms of a job lead. It could be in terms of which courses I should be taking at school. It could be about who do you think is the best company you’ve ever worked for, or the best school you’ve attended, or even the best professor. So it’s really soliciting feedback that can be helpful to you in terms of your career, your personal life. I mean, even something as simple as finding a plumber for your house. We all do that right? a housekeeper or nanny? We’re always asking. Our friends are trusted. You know, Friends, family, and who do you prefer? Right? That’s networking.

AW: I hear people when I’m thinking about this topic, I hear people almost complaining about networking. Like, gosh, I really need to get out there and network more, or one of my goals for 2020 is to be a better networker. Why is it so important for us to be networking?

SMG: When I’m coaching executives, or I’m interviewing the, I always ask them, take me through your various jobs. How did you go from one job to the next? And a lot of times, it’s because a colleague told me about it, an ex boss hired me, you know, etc. So it is through the network, because the reality is that there are so many people out there. So how do you differentiate yourself? you differentiate yourself through the network. There’s someone out there saying, I know you are. I’m happy to help you or to refer you.

AW: And it works both ways, right? Research shows that it’s typically within your network is the way that you find your next job right?

SMG: Absolutely.

AW: It’s a friend of a friend.

SMG: Yes, absolutely. There’s a great book, I highly advise everyone to read. Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi. It’s a great, easy book to read.

AW: I have to admit I have seen it. I have not read it, but I definitely will. Based on your recommendation.

SMG: I send it out to CEOs. I send it out to young university kids. It’s a really fun read. And it really breaks things down in terms of very simple terms.

AW: Can you share with us any stories about people who are great at networking?

SMG: That great networker are the ones who really – if you watch them in a room, they have a natural friendliness about them, they’re easily approachable. You’ll see them walking around the room talking to people, talking to two to three people at a time, maybe spending anywhere from five to eight minutes. And when they’re exiting, they’ll say “it was wonderful meeting you and you probably want to meet some other people…” and then they move on to the next person.

So there are those are people who are just really natural there. It’s really about how can I help you. And if you listen to them speak, this is what’s really critical. It’s never about them. It’s always – studies have shown that if I were to meet you at a cocktail party, and I said, “Hi, my name is Sharon. I’m in executive search.”

Then you’d Introduce yourself, “and what do you do?” And you said, “I was a former professor, and I do TalkAboutTalk.” I go, “Oh, that sounds really interesting. Tell me more about that.” And then I’d ask you another question. I now I’ve asked you three questions. And yet if you got pulled away, and someone came up to you said, “Andrea, what do you think about Sharon?” You’d say, “Wow, she’s great.” And yet, if we watch the video of it, not once did I talk about myself?

Because the reality is people like to talk about themselves. I don’t know if you watch Oprah Winfrey? In her very last episode on TV, she talked about, “I have interviewed over 100,000 people from convicts, to royalty, to kings, to navy seals. And what is the one thing that I found that every single person wants?  They want to know I see you. I hear you. And what you say matters.

AW: I think I remember that!

SMG: Yes, exactly. So that’s what it’s all about. There’s another great book, Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. You know, it’s been around for many, many years. But he talks about the same idea – that people enjoy talking to us. That’s why your name is very important. That’s why people really don’t like it if you get their name wrong. And that’s why if you when you’re doing it, when you’re networking, you say their name three times, there’s that actual connection. It helps in terms of the networking. You see them, and you value them. So that’s another technique that one might use in terms of network.

AW: I have heard that that is the number one favorite word for most people is their own name, although they would never say that if you ask them directly.

SMG: That’s so interesting! I didn’t know that, but I just know that from my readings and from my own experience.

AW: I wonder if there’s research like with an MRI or something where they can prove that? they could you know what… I bet you they could. What about stories about people who fail at networking?

SMG: Oh, yeah. There’s a lot! I coached this one individual who I had placed at a company, he was a fantastic individual. But networking really wasn’t his thing. And this is actually probably a great story that can be shared, and a lot of people can learn. But this was an individual who I placed, whom I had a lot of respect for. He was leaving a company and we had to talk about networking. So his idea of networking was to go out and phone people he knew, which was fine. But my idea of effective networking because there’s only 24 hours a day is to network in terms of groups, associations, industry events, etc.

So there was an event that was going on, and I asked them to attend it with me and I said, I could show you how to go about networking. And I said, plus, I know that five people there know you from your previous role, and it’s a great chance for you to touch them very quickly.

He said, Well, no, Sharon, I, I can’t make it. And I said, Well, why? He said, Well, I have a meeting. I said, well who’s it with? He goes, Oh, it’s with the outplacement firm. I said, you absolutely can reschedule that meeting! This breakfast meeting, you must come with me. And I said, you will know some of the people who are going to be there.

I said, Have you contacted them? He goes, Well, yes. He says, I called two of those people. And I said, when he said a week ago, I said, have they gotten back to you? No.  I said, that’s because they’re busy. They’re busy executives. So he came with me to the event. I took him around, and I introduced him. Hi, nice to see you. I’m gonna introduce you to Mr. so-and-so, he’s actually a seasoned CFO who’s looking for his next role, you know, etc.

So he can see how I was doing it. Then we found the people that I knew he would know because we both knew them. And sure enough, Hi, how are you? They reconnected, and when it came time to say goodbye, I saw him in the corner with one of the other individuals. And I thought, huh, that looks promising. Yeah. And sure enough, that was his next role.

AW: Oh, that’s great!

SMG: Yeah. And he’s sweet. And I just had dinner with him in January. He’s been there now three years. He’s so happy. He keeps thanking me every single time. But he saw firsthand how networking is so important. And that’s where he landed his role.

AW: I feel like that was an I told you so moment

SMG: I didn’t say it. But he did. He did. Another great story, another CEO that I had, she was having a tough time finding a job. And I remember this woman, she was sort of depressed. You know, that happens. It’s sometimes hard for a CEO or even a young person,…

AW:  It’s a big part of their identity!

SMG: At that time, I was helping out with a conference and I said, Well, I have a pass here for conference that’s worth $600. But I have a few left that I could give to you. But the promise here is that you cannot just go for two hours. You have to attend the whole conference!  You’re gonna feel like only going for two hours. And I want you to network.

You know who the speakers are, I guarantee you, and it’s every 30 minutes. And I guarantee you that that speaker will be in the audience. So you have the right to go up to that person because that’s what conferences are for, or cocktail parties, to go up to that person. So sure enough, she met an individual, and she got a role. And she sent me a case of wine to say thanks.

AW: Oh, nice!

SMG: Yeah.

AW: So thanks for the conference ticket and for the job!

SMG: Yes, exactly. So that’s another example. So to be honest, from a networking perpective, it’s hard to ask people to meet you for an hour or they meet me for coffee. The reality is that the world is a very busy place right now. So I always talk about efficient networking. So those are your cocktail parties. When I go to events, it’s that hour before the main event, versus the hour after.

That’s golden, that hour before is precious. you can touch a whole bunch of people and you just need to touch high level, you’ll feel there’s a connection. You can ask them for their card, or what I often do is I LinkedIn right away because I find that LinkedIn very powerful in terms of networking, because there’s a picture of them. I actually will say, great meeting you at this dinner or at this conference. So now I have a record off so that next time when I’m meeting you.

AW: So on the weekend, I was on a zoom conference call with I think about 25 podcasters. And about two hours after the meeting, I got a LinkedIn request from someone who was on the call. And I thought that’s brilliant.

SMG: Yeah, so that’s one really great strategy. And LinkedIn is the way to go. By the way, if any of you out there in the audience don’t have an LinkedIn account, you must have one! 10 years ago, from a search perspective, I would say 10% of the people had LinkedIn because they felt was you only were on there if you’re looking for a job right?

AW: That’s what people say. I have heard people say that who aren’t on it. They say only people that need jobs are on LinkedIn. And I said, Oh, that was the case before. But that is really untrue.

SMG: Now why I would say that now 99% of the people are on LinkedIn. Even if you only have one contact, you’re on LinkedIn. The reason for that is, that is the way business is done now. And it’s not just about looking for a job. If you’re in sales, how wonderful that the most valuable part of that is that mutual connections. So you might be looking at someone going,

Well, we have 10 mutual connections, you look at those 10 mutual connections, and it just helps you accelerate the process. W e used to do more on an informal basis, right? You walk in, hey, I see that you and I know Andrea, and then right away it becomes a “warm hello.” How do you know her? Well we went to school together . So right away, you now have a point and you bet you if I’m interested in doing business with you, or if I value Andrea, I’m thinking, well if that person knows Andrea and Andrea knows her, this person must be very credible, trustworthy, etc. It’s not just about jobs. It’s about a lot of different things.

The world has changed a lot. And absolutely, with LinkedIn resumes, you can do different versions. But LinkedIn, just a quick pointer is to have that first little piece of it, there’s only a certain number of words. But that’s when you can be warm. It’s really great to tell your story. And that’s what people read.

Then they very quickly can see where you’ve worked and see your mutual connections. And if you really want to be active, you can tie podcasts into it and all sorts of videos, and stuff like that. But it’s even changed our world in terms of search, like the whole mid market and recruiting has probably gone a lot because now people bring it in house and hire some junior recruiters who basically work the LinkedIn.

AW: I’ve heard that.

SMG: Exactly. And it’s got pros and cons because I see it from the side where they try it. They don’t know quite how to get it done. There is something to be said for looking at people, not just what’s on paper, but cutting through some of the stuff . Even though they held this job, you’ve gotta look at the total picture. Where did they go to school, some of the companies, we understand the cultures that the skills that they might have developed from there that’s really impacted our industry.

AW:  for sure. Building on the LinkedIn, I guess, and and the associations and everything else that we’ve been talking about. Can you share with us what some of the most important things to keep in mind are in terms of networking, particularly at different stages of our career? So, maybe start with younger folk?

SMG: Yes. So number one, I’m going to say, networking, you do it the rest of your life. You can even start when you’re in your teens, and it continues the rest of your life. You never stop networking. So let’s start with the youngsters. I will start with the university kids right? Sure you finished graduating or you’re almost getting close to graduating, you need an internship, etc.

AW: Should they have a LinkedIn page?

SMG: Absolutely.

AW: I have to tell you about two weeks ago, I sat down with my teenage son and we created a LinkedIn page. And that was prompted by his peers connecting with me on LinkedIn. And I said to him, buddy, you need to step it up. He’s a teenager.

SMG: Yeah. How old?

AW: 16.

SMG: Yeah.  So absolutely, you need a LinkedIn page. And in that LinkedIn page, because you don’t have a lot of experience, you can talk about different activities, sports or any leadership roles. At the end of the day, companies hire you for three things, they’re gonna hire you, because you you’re gonna help them make money, save money, or help them solve an issue. So if you’re young in your career, we get it that you don’t have the experience. So we’re hiring for the soft skills. Can they learn? Are they going to be reliable? Are they a hard worker? Did he have a positive attitude? They have a smile on their face. That’s what we’re hiring for.

AW: Yeah. So you’re talking about joining associations. I love that. That’s the kind of explicit recommendation to go out and join associations and then get out there in real life and meet the people I’m thinking, not only are you meeting people, but you’re also giving yourself a line to put on LinkedIn or your resume. Right? So it’s, it’s like, doubly efficient, right?

SMG: So if you’re interested in finance, there’s the finance association at all the universities, right? Take a leadership role in it. So I often say to people, when you do this… I’ve done a few of these seminars on how to build a very successful professional services practice. Whether you’re a consultant or a lawyer or an accountant, and one of the advice that I give individuals is I say, what sector do you want to work in? So she said, such-and-such sector.

I said, you’re going to go join the association that holds these conferences for the association, but you’re not just going to join, you’re going to take a leadership role in it. And in that leadership role, you become the president or vice president, there’s going to be a leadership role, and you can attend all the events. You’re going to go and you’re just going to talk to people, not about yourself, but just have an interest because you like that sector.

And then from there, it’s about likability in professional services, because you’re selling a service. So it’s the same thing in networking, because you are actually selling yourself, aren’t you? In networking, you’re not selling your product in networking.

AW: What about when people are more advanced in their career? It could be mid career or even towards the end of their career. I know from observation, actually looking around at some of my peers and people that are a little bit older. I feel like people get a little comfortable in terms of their networking. They have their buddies, they have their one sport that they do. right. Do you have any advice for older people as they’re networking?

SMG: Absolutely. Get out of your comfort zone. That’s the first thing. Go out and learn because you know what, the world is changing a lot. You know, 75% of the jobs that that our children’s kids are going to have, have not even been invented yet. Artificial Intelligence, data analytics. I look at some grandparents – The two year olds know how to use the iPad to call grandma and granddad – like a two year old! Like, you know, they don’t know what button to push.

So you don’t push yourself out of your comfort zone. Sure, it’s great to have people that you’ve known, but having people that are younger or be a mentor to them, that that’s a nice segue right there. Start coaching and giving back and being a mentor to those who are younger, share your experience, because you’re gonna learn from them, too. That’s right. It works both ways. Remember, networking is mutually beneficial, right? It’s not a one way street. Right? So that’s what I love.

AW: That’s also great advice to give the younger people like don’t forget your offering to them.

SMG: Yes, that’s what the younger folk are doing. Exactly, exactly.

AW: nicely put. What are the biggest mistakes that people make when they’re trying to network?  Back to that person who’s thinking, this is the year I’m going to get out there and network. What are some mistakes that people make?

SMG: I see it all the time. Like for example, this is a bit of a pet peeve – from a search perspective, when someone calls me up or sends me an email and says, “Hi, I’m looking for my next job. And I was wondering if you could give me an hour of your time so we could talk about the market.” I actually almost feel that that’s an insult to think that I have nothing better to do than to sit there for an hour with a random stranger to talk about the market.

AW: So in other words, what’s in it for me, right? So like back the reciprocality.

SMG: You got it. It is. And so it’s people who do that, or where they sit there and they think all they’re supposed to do is talk about themselves and what their needs are. Or when they say hi, could you introduce me to some people, and I’m going, I don’t even know who you are.

AW: So you’re reminding me of some of my brilliant friends who maybe had been laid off or quit a job and they really aren’t sure what they want to do next, and they’ll start doing what I’m sure you’ve heard of as information interviews. What are you offering to someone when you are seeking an Information interview?

SMG: Usually the information interviews are done through a referral. Because that’s furthermore why you should be networking – because you have something to offer them. And that’s goes back again to the reciprocality. Right? So in other words, when someone is asking for example for me to do information interview, I look at them and I go “Hmm, MBA from Harvard, McKinsey, etc. So I’m thinking pretty great person, probably fun to talk to.” So I might do that. Or where I really tend to do a lot of my information interviews is through a referral.

AW:  So you’re actually doing someone else a favor in your network – so it’s leveraging that network …?

SMG: It goes back to networking, and you know why? The reality is and I get a lot of people who are  frustrated, unemployed, and they go, “no one’s getting back to me and blah, blah,..”  and I’m going, huh? So let’s talk about this. When you were gainfully employed, working full time, I’m sure you must have done or had a few of these requests, correct? They say Yes, and I go, Hmm. So after you did that information interview, or I’m assuming it’s because someone asked you to do it and they acknowledge, yes. Like either a boss or a friend or whatever. How much did you think about that person after that?

Well, I really didn’t. And I said, so it’s not personal. It’s just that people are busy. We’re busy! And there’s 24 hours in a day. The reality is, most people are busier than they ever have been. So it’s not personal. So what I often suggest to them is to go within the outplacement firm. There’s different groups of unemployed people take that as an opportunity to network.

Because the reality is that you are a very highly accomplished individual, but you have the luxury of time now. So you’re frustrated. And so why don’t you network with some other people, because the reality is those relationships will continue after you land your next role.

AW: That’s brilliant. It’s also a great place to start. It feels like a safe place to start.

SMG: Exactly. And so they go oh…, and I say, think about that, right? Then what a lot of them will say to me is, well, Sharon, you’re right. When I land, I am going to be extra sensitive to this.  

AW: like in terms of wanting to help?

SMG:  Exactly. It takes going through the experience to understand true effect of a network. Suddnly it’s like, How can I help you? and I can really see the people who come up with that mindset.

AW: They’re positive

SMG: You have to be genuine. You cannot fake it. Networking you cannot fake. You have to be genuine. Read that book. Never eat alone by Keith Ferrazzi.

AW: authenticity?

SMG: absolutely critical. People know, especially at the senior levels, they know. And I think if you’ve got high emotional intelligence, you can pick them out.  So what I do is I really try to get out to as many events. So if I’m in an industry sectors like say Life Sciences, I will go to their gala in February because in that gala, they had the Lifetime Achievement Award. They have the Volunteer of the Year award. They have the Company of the Year Award, and they have the Social Responsibility Award.

So frankly, anyone who’s going to be anyone, especially with the Lifetime Achievement Award, is going to be there, right? In the company of the year. So in that cocktail party, there’s usually about 600 people. I can just quickly touch base with a lot of people very quickly. So sometimes they’ll pull me aside. Sharon, Sharon, I’m looking for my job. Okay, I’ll catch up with you later on. Sharon, when you have a search, I’m here. Okay. I’ll catch up with you later. But it’s just a great way to be seen. So that I’m again, top of mind. And then it’s…

AW: Sorry to interrupt but it’s almost like brand resonance. Right?

SMG: Right.

AW: The brands are out there. They’re in our face. They’re on our computers, they’re on billboards, they’re in magazines, they’re across different media, and it’s almost like you’re selling your personal brand out there and you’re trying to increase or maximize exposure.

SMG: Absolutely. Networking. And that’s what you have to do is be out there. You can’t hide behind your computer. And that’s why to be honest with you, Andrea, there are very few female partners in law firms, CPA firms, even management consulting firms. Because a lot of it requires, you know, sitting on committees or attending a lot of events, which are usually in the evenings, right? If you’re the female, if you have a family, you can’t do that as much as, say, the male.

AW: It’s changing, but it’s definitely that way.

SMG: That’s one of the biggest reasons why you don’t have that, because you have to be out there at all sorts of events, and ideally, in a leadership role. So that you know, you can be a sponsor for it ,if you want an easier way of doing it. But even as a sponsor, you should be at that event.

I’ve gone to events where there’s been a major sponsor, and there was nobody there from that. And I’m going Oh, my goodness. And then the other thing I pass on to you is: so say you’re a guest, you know, at a table or I’m hosting a table what I often do is I will provide to all my guests, two or three days, nothing earlier than that.

It’ll get lost in the email. I will actually provide a name of all the guests at the table with the company name. And so it’s on you, if you’re smart, to Google or and look up their LinkedIn and sort of figure out what they do. And if it’s someone that you want to meet, make sure you either sit next to them, or at least introduce yourself when they’re at your table. You know a little bit about them. Because the reality is when you sit down at that table of 10, usually it’s the person to the right and the left, the other people introduce themselves, but you don’t really know what they do. AW: What a great hostess!

SMG: Yeah, so I always do that. And people really thank me for it. And then the other thing is certainly from a networking perspective, if you are hosting an event or you’re at an event with a bunch of colleagues from work, please don’t hang out together or sit together! I mean, another pet peeve: when I’m at a table, and half the table’s from the Bank of Montreal, I go, oh my gosh, like you don’t have anything else better to do? This is an opportunity. To me it’s a wasted networking opportunity,

AW: Again, getting out of your comfort zone.

SMG: Exactly.

AW: Not sitting with your besties. But actually meeting new people. So the most efficient way of networking really is getting up and attending, whether it be conferences or cocktail parties, or gala industry events, etc.

SMG: Yeah. And to be honest, it’s a lot easier than doing a one-on-one – is asking someone, can I have an hour of your time, or even 20 minutes for coffee? You can do that at a cocktail event.

AW: I’m imagining someone listening to this, who may be an introvert and or who may be shy thinking, Okay, easy for you to say, but I can’t stand the small talk. Do you have any advice for those people?

SMG: Well, first of all, I keep going back to this. The networking is not about them. So the small talk, it’s really about asking the questions of the other person you’re meeting. If you’re an introvert, it may be tough, so I always say go with a friend because it’s always easier if that’s the case. Someone like me –  I’m a huge extrovert.

Look, I could walk into a room with 500 people, not know anybody, and say, Wow, 500 potential new friends! Whereas an introvert will go: I’d rather have a root canal than walk into that room, right? But so if you’re an introvert, my advice would be go with another friend. And approach groups that have an odd number. Because usually there’s an odd number, like there’s three or five, there’s usually one person out or whatever, that you can quickly engage.

AW: I hadn’t thought about that!

SMG:  Yes

AW: I actually have a podcast episode and a paper about the ABCDEs of Communication. And it’s really it’s five steps to get you through that awkward small talk. Right? And the first one is “Ask questions.”

SMG: Yes, that’s right.

AW: But I love your point about approaching groups, because there’ll always be an odd person out because you know, you’re trying to have a conversation with three. But if you’re, there’s that odd person, you can you can see it, they’ll be standing there quietly or whatever. And if you went up to them, they will be forever, you know, grateful. Thanks for saving me.

SMG:  exactly.

AW: Is there anything else you want to add, Sharon, about networking before we move on to the five rapid fire questions?

SMG: Oh, that sounds like fun! Well, just that honestly ,networking it’s really not about you. It’s about the other person and taking a genuine and authentic interest in them and trying to help them. And that networking never stops. It is a life long skill. Like I said. It’s not even just for your career. It could be something as simple as finding a plumber or a doctor or, or whatever. It’s just, it never stops. It’s not just related to finding a job.

AW: Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions?

SMG: I am.

AW: First question. What are your pet peeves?

SMG: My pet peeve is people who are not lifetime learners. There’s so much out there to learn, in terms of technology, and just the way the world is going. So I’m such a lifetime learner. I’m always curious, wanting to learn. So that’s one. And number two are just people who are takers – who are not genuine, who just take-take-take, and it’s all about them. I would say those are my two top pet peeves.

AW: So I have to ask you about the lifelong learner thing. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you’re doing a search and you have a candidate and then it registers with you that they are not a lifelong learner. Have you ever called someone on that and said like, Buddy?

SMG: so yeah, well, I just see the facts. I’m not gonna try to call them out but I might ask them.

AW: You’re like a psychologist.

SMG: Sometimes I feel like … sometimes I truly feel like I actually find out more information than I really need to know.

AW:  Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you – visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or some other kind of learners?

SMG: Definitely visual. I have to see it. I have to see it and feel it. I’m definitely that type of learner. You can talk to me and talk to me. And I just won’t remember it. But I can touch it, feel it. See it. That’s how I learned.

AW: I didn’t know how you’re going to answer that. But now that you’ve said it, I think that’s true. Because you do comment on color and arts a lot, don’t you?

SMG: Yeah, Yeah, I do. Colors make me happy.

AW: Me too. OK. question number three, introvert or extrovert?  Bahaha! Like that’s not obvious!

SMG: Definitely an extrovert.

AW: Moving on.

SMG: I definitely get energy from people. I’m an energy giver versus a taker. And I have many people comment on that, too.

AW: Yeah, it’s true. I feel energy around you. But here’s maybe a more insightful question to ask you about that. Is there anything because you’re an extrovert that you have to sort of work on or gauge within yourself?

SMG: Yes, absolutely. That some people may not be as passionate about things as I am. And not as action orientated as I am.

AW: You have to cut them some slack.

SMG: Yeah, I have to slow down sometimes. You know, be more patient.

AW: These are words that I need to internalize myself. Okay. Question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations?

SMG: Definitely face to face if it’s a serious conversation. Face to face. In person.

AW: Why?

SMG: Because of the body language and it’s about being genuine and authentic. And I think that if you can do that in person, you can see it.

AW: What about for casual conversation?

SMG: Emails, texts, urgent texts.  Well, I’m trying to plan dinners and stuff like what who’s bringing what food? Definitely email.

AW: So it’s kind of a hierarchy there,  in terms of urgency.

SMG: You got it. Yeah.

AW: Number five, podcast or blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most?

SMG: Of course, it’s Talk About Talk! Do we need to ask that question?

AW: Not including Talk About Talk?

SMG: Okay, well, then maybe TED Talks. I love watching them,  It’s about self improvement or learning or getting better at something. I love watching those. It’s like the we have to make so many decisions. So “top 10” is a favorite word in my vocabulary.

Anyone who knows me who travels with me, when we go to restaurants and stuff, I always say, what are your top three sellers? Not what you like. But what three items do you sell the most? So I don’t want to make that decision because there’s just so many decisions that we all have to make already.

AW: Right.

SMG: So that’s sort of being like a standing joke amongst many of my colleagues and friends and stuff. She was gonna ask her, one of your top three sellers,

AW: Brilliant, that’s a great insight. Great advice. Thank you very, very much for sharing your advice and your time with us, Sharon.

SMG: Thank you. My pleasure.

THANKS for listening – and READING!

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The post #45 NETWORKING with executive recruiter Sharon Mah-Gin appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you know how to conduct an interview? It could be a job interview, an information-seeking interview, a journalistic interview, or perhaps for entertainment purposes – like an interview that’s presented as a written article, a live interview onstage, or – a podcast interview! Improviser and podcast host David Shore shares his advice, including how to prepare for an interview and specific tips for during the interview.

David Shore

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you, David, so much for joining us to talk about interviewing.

David Shore: Yeah, I’m happy to be here. I love your artwork.

AW: Oh, that’s nice. Especially after you’ve been so gracious and patient with me as I’m trying to set up my audio equipment. The listeners don’t know this because my audio equipment wasn’t working. But I was having major problems recording and David was incredibly patient. And he told me that it wasn’t bothering him at all.

DS: I’ve been on your end of it. You were on my show, Monkey Toast. And we were recording it for podcasts, which we decided not to do. It’s very difficult to record a live comedy show, particularly if it has live music. And we had nights where some of the equipment wasn’t working. And we have to open the door because we have a big crowd. It was a nightmare. And some nights we decided not to record. Eventually I decided to kill the podcast because it’s just too difficult. Even with my other podcast The Panel Show, subjects we had radio interference from cell phones.

AW: So this is a new one that I hadn’t heard of – radio interference from cell phones?

DS: Yeah. Apparently it’s not uncommon, depending on the venue, depending on the equipment.

AW:so why don’t you share with the audience some of the types of interviews that you’ve done? and then if we want we could we could get into equipment malfunctions.

DS: Sure. I’m an improviser by trade, which people are like, what’s that?  People would say I’m a comedian, but I don’t do stand up, except maybe in high school. I, you know, trained as an improviser out in LA at the Improv Olympic and then came back to Toronto where I was at the Second City on the main stage there for about 18 months.

And then when I left, I started my own show: Monkey Toast, which is an improv show. It morphed into a talk show when CBC Radio got involved. So they trained me – taught me how to interview people. We worked with them for about a year. We kept that as a talk show. Through that I’ve got to meet … that’s how I met you. You were a guest on the show. We’re always looking for interesting people. And through that as well, for awhile I did celebrity interviews for Reader’s Digest Canada. We did a corporate show for them and they loved it.

AW: So you were interviewing celebrities?

DS: I did. I interviewed William Shatner. They called me one day, and she goes, we’d love for you to interview Dave Thomas from SCTV for our comedy issue, I’m like, okay. She’s like, we’ll pay you. Okay! I was good. Everything I kept saying was like, “okay.” Because you want to pay me to interview one of the people I idolized growing up? We had to do it over the phone, it was great. And they loved the interview and said, Hey, do you want to do more of these? And I was like, Yeah, why wouldn’t I want to be published in a magazine that pays well and is read by 9 million people in Canada? So I gave them a list of people with Don Rickles, I think h was at the top. And then Bobby Orr .

AW: that’s hilarious.

DS: But they were like – it had to Canadians. They said, We like the idea of you interviewing William Shatner. If we send you to LA to interview him, who else can you interview there? If we send you there, you can’t just do one interview. So at a time, some of you may have heard of David Shore. That name sounds familiar. And that’s because there’s a very famous David Shore. He created the TV show HOUSE.

AW: Right.

DS: And I know him. Yeah, we know each other. He’s from London, Ontario. He’s a nice Canadian as well. I had a Seder once with him in Los Angeles. So I said, What about David Shore? He just won the Emmy for HOUSE and they liked the idea of David Shore interviewing David Shore. I had a phone number and email address and I contacted his wife. They’re like Of course we remember you! How could we not remember the other David Shore ? Why would you say no to be interviewed by Reader’s Digest? 9 million people are going to read what you said!

AW: especially when it’s someone that has your name.

DS: Yeah, it was a really good interview actually. It was pretty funny.

AW: So you’re interviewing people for magazines, and then now you’re interviewing people on stage, and it’s live. And then you’re also interviewing people for podcasts, which can be edited. So I have so many questions about this. Let’s start at a basic level. How are those different?

DS: Well, you know, I haven’t done a print one in a long time. I mean, the Reader’s Digest, you know, I do an hour interview, and then I would have to transcribe it and then that would give me about 20 pages and they will cut it down to maybe a page or three quarters of a page. William Shatner’s was titled “space cowboy” or something like that, because he has a ranch and it is related to horses and I think he had some charities involved with kids and getting them onto horses and stuff.

And with David Shore, we talked about his background and the fact that now that he has a successful show. I get some emails directed at him. I got fan mail sent to my agents, you know, because I’m an actor as well. And so I, one of the things I asked him was like, have you ever been mistaken for me?

AW: That’s a great question to ask him.

DS: And he said, Yeah, I once got a call from a guy and he’s called, we’re talking and he’s like, (this is the way my friend John talked),  he was like, “Yeah, you’re not you’re not the David Shore I know.” And it was a friend of mine, John Wolk, who actually works on Jimmy Kimmel, (Named drop!) And he called the wrong David Shore.

AW: So I want to go back a little bit to interviewing skills. Earlier on here, you said that CBC taught you to interview. Can you share with the listeners a few of the things that maybe you remember from back then that they thought you?

DS: It was a long time ago.  I forget the name of the gentleman I met with. He played tapes for me of interviews. And he would say, can you see why that was bad? and a big thing was, you know, “do you think this will bring down the government?” Yes? Then that’s a bad question. Anything that gives you a yes or no answer is a bad question right? That is, unless you follow it up with why?

AW: so open ended questions is kind of like I don’t know, the low hanging fruit for the types of questions to ask, right?

DS: You don’t want to ask yes or no questions, because that’s what you will typically get: a yes or no answer. Particularly if the person you’re interviewing is nervous. The most important thing when you’re interviewing someone is to have them relax. I’m not a journalist. I’m not.  I told you before the show, if I asked you a question, and you realize, “oh, I don’t want to talk about this,” then you just say, “I don’t want to talk about it,” and I’m going to move on. It’s a comedy and I want them to be comfortable. I kept telling you, I just want you to be comfortable. You’re just talking to me.

AW: Yep. That remember, we spoke on the phone the day before the interview, and you said, I just want you to be comfortable. Just talk and I’ll guide you and…

DS:  but that to me is the most important thing. You have to make the person comfortable. And then it’s a conversation. You want to be engaged. I need to listen to you. I always over prepare, no matter what. For Reader’s Digest as well. I think when I interviewed William Shatner I read two of his books. And I’d seen all of Star Trek. Because I’d seen all the Star Treks.

AW: You’re a trekkie.  I get it.

DS: Yeah, but not like – I don’t wear the costumes or anything. But I also got some videos or DVDs from the library before I interviewed him. There was one of him and Leonard Nimoy interviewing each other. And so there’s valuable information in that, because I went in well-prepared, knowing everything.  A lot of the time I know the answer before I ask the question. But at the same time, you have to be able to go off the cuff.

AW: So I was just going to say – in almost any context of interviewing: could be for journalist trying to get information for a story, it could be for entertainment purposes. It could be for a job interview. I heard you say a couple times. The most important thing is to make the interviewee relax, and to feel comfortable. So let’s talk about when the interviewee is not relaxed or they don’t appear to be comfortable. Do you have any stories or advice about that?

DS: Well, I’ve had a few guests, I think over the years, I could think of, I’ve been doing Monkey Toast for 17 years. I can think of three guests who were horrible. I’m not gonna name any names.

AW: No, don’t do that.

DS: But they were people who just didn’t want to talk, One of them I said, so you’ve got a new book coming out about hockey? Why don’t you tell us about us about it? It’s just a book.

AW: Wow.

DS: And I’m thinking, you’re literally killing me.

AW: Also themselves, how is that serving their own interest to sell more books?

DS: I don’t know. But you know…

AW: what was going on? Was he nervous?

DS: No, I don’t know. But after the show, there was a reviewer there. like a journalist, you know, and said, Wow, that was hard. I said, tell me about it. Because I had to answer all the questions. Every question I asked him, I had to answer.

AW: So it probably depends on the person’s personality, in terms of getting them to talk, but I like the idea. Generally, we would advise against leading questions or helping answer the question, but sometimes people just need a little prop up, right.?

DS: Yeah, I mean, and that’s rare. There’s three people I could think of in 17 years. Typically, if I know someone is quiet, I don’t want to book them as a guest interview.

AW:  Right.

DS: So I did do that. I had an old neighbor. He was a musician in a band that was fairly well known at the time and I remember the lead singer came in and he said, I can’t believe he talked, because he’s really quiet!  I hadn’t realized that because we would hang out in the backyard and have beers and he was quite talkative. But then he known as being a quiet stoic guy. And when I interviewed him, oh, yeah, you’re really quiet. He would give short answers.

AW:  some people are good with one on one right? And then yeah, they’re in a room or in front of a mic microphone. It’s a completely different story.

DS:  No, for sure. And that’s it’s just learning and you’re going to make mistakes. You’re gonna make mistakes. We were talking about that before we start recording. You know, it took me years to get good at doing interviews. It’s a skill. Part of the problem in Western society is, when you watch, you know, film or TV, and instantly something good happens. It takes 10 seconds. It’s like… Jimmy Fallon started on The Tonight Show and I thought – he’s terrible at interviewing. But that’s because he’d probably never done it before. Yeah, but now he’s quite good at it.

AW:  Now you know, I don’t want to name names, but there are some people on TV on Late Night that I think are horrible interviewers.

DS: Well, it’s a different skill. It is funny. And it’s and you know, if you’re asking me, who were my favorite interviewers? I love Seth Meyers and Colbert. And I watch most of the comedy clips from their shows. And I will watch – there’s certain guests I want to see. But I watched Letterman every day. I taped Letterman every day. But it was it wasn’t for the interview. It was for the comedy.

AW:  It’s a different skill. Totally.

DS: Yeah, totally different skill. Yeah. And you can do both. That’s the thing. Look, if I’m if I’m interviewing someone, it’s not about me. It’s about them. The show is about you. The show is not about me. And since my show’s comedy show, I’ll interject and I know there’s certain times where if I say this right now, I’m gonna get a huge laugh. Then sometimes I’m feeling particularly funny. And that’s what you want it to be. You want it to be a conversation, but at the same time, I don’t want to overpower them. I don’t want to dominate it unless somebody is super shy and doesn’t want to talk.

AW:  So in the, in the context of a live improv comedy show. You’re thinking, well, the audience just wants to be entertained, right? If you’re an investigative journalists and you’re they’re being paid to get information from someone and they refuse. That’s tough. Yeah, I keep thinking that third context is a job interview. The person is not talking. Well, they’re not getting the job.

DS: No, they’re not getting a job. And it’s funny because, you know, when you ask people to do the show, I said, Sure. And then you were talking about job interviews. I can’t remember the last time I was on a job interview. But I do auditions for things, which is, I think, worse.

AW:   that’s tough.

DS: It’s tough, but I haven’t been in a job interview in a long time. And I think, you know, the older you get, the more it’s like, whatever. You know what I mean? Like dating. It’s a job interview.

AW:  True, right?

DS: And when I moved back to Toronto, I started dating again, and I thought, I’m just me. I’m not going to pretend anything, because if you don’t like me, and I don’t like you, what is the point?

AW:  Exactly.

DS: You know, I’m wasting your time. I’ve been in a bad marriage. Had some bad relationships, some good relationships. And it’s like the good relationships are where people who loved me for who I was. Not trying to change me. I’m going to be me. I don’t want to go three months and you find out Oh, this is really you.

AW:  and I’ve heard that exact advice. Which is tough to do for a job interview. One of my recent guests suggested creating a 60 second infomercial about yourself that is totally honest about your capabilities and your goals.

DS: Yeah.

AW:  And making sure that if you’re in a job interview that you’re holding true to your personal values. The 60 second infomercial is kind of the same thing when you’re dating.

DS: Yeah.

AW:  Who do you think are the best interviewers that you listen to? or read or observed?

DS: Yeah, you know, it’s funny because you sent me an email saying, Oh, this one question. Someone asked you, I thought, oh, who are the best interviewers and, unfortunately, to the people that I used to really love watching interviews, they were exposed during #MeToo.

AW:   really?

DS:  yeah, Charlie Rose.

AW:  Okay.

DS: so l loved Charlie Rose. And Tavis Smiley who I literally did a Google search. oh, Tavis Smiley. He did some stuff too.

AW:  Okay, so I have to tell you this then. One of the best interviews I ever saw in my life. In fact, I got my kids to watch it – was Jian Ghomeshi interviewing Carrie Fisher. Phenomenal.

DS: Yeah.

AW:  And what a guy?

DS: Yeah.

AW:  So I told you, I wanted to ask you, what are some of the things that you do in advance of an interview? And we’ve talked about it a little bit, right? You’d like to talk to the person you’re going to interview to see if there’s anything …

DS: It’s usually through email. Back in the early days of the show, somebody would do a pre interview.

AW:  Yeah. What do you think about pre interviews?

DS: It makes sense. I mean, well, if you do if you take a late night TV show, you have something to talk, you’re trying to make people laugh and engage them. And you know, if someone’s coming on to promote something, you to talk about that, but you just can’t talk about that. You need some stories.

I’ll email people saying, Is there anything you’d particularly want to talk about or don’t want to talk about? Because there might be something I want to talk about? I don’t want to talk about – Jen Whalen. She said just don’t ask me about how we all met. Because I’ve been asked that to death. So I’d so I asked her on the show, When you do press in the States, what’s the one question that you’re sick of?

AW:  Good question.

DS:  So I thought I’d put it that way. You know, because as she goes, it’s her origin story. We’ve told it so many times, and I get that. Dave Thomas. When I interviewed him, he had no issue telling me about how Bob & Doug McKenzie came about. Yeah, I could hear the joy in his voice. It had to be a phone interview, but he had no issue retelling that old story.

AW:  So it’s: what do you want to talk about? What do you not want to talk about? What’s off limits? And then I love your also your point about: Do you have any great stories? Don’t tell me the story …

DS: Sometimes people are like, how did you know this? And I’m like, a lot of its on Wikipedia. I’ll do research depending on the person, there might be a lot of information online. If they’re an author, I’ll probably get the book, Linda McQuaid. I bought her last book. We talked about that.

AW:  You know, I’ve been reading a lot of books recently from people that I’m interviewing and I love it. I’m reading more… I don’t, I wouldn’t say I’m reading it more intensely, because I generally do read to learn. But it’s it’s a totally different angle to reading something when you know you’re going to be talking to the author later.

DS: Yeah, because things will come up. You’ll definitely find lots of questions and things to talk about and it could be, how did you think about this? Yeah. So you have to do research. Some people are more off the cuff, but I like to be prepared. And by that, I mean, I try and write a flow to the questions.

AW:  What about during the interview?

DS: So, try to ask open ended questions, try to make the guest comfortable and relaxed. Is there anything in your head that you’re thinking, to make this the best it can be? I need to try to focus on that. And I’ll try and engage if there’s something I like, because there might be a follow up question or might lead to something else or it might lead into a question I have.

AW:  So focus and listening.

DS: You really have to listen, you know, everything is about listening. Yes. And you can’t get distracted. I got distracted. I told you when I was interviewing you, I got distracted because there was a band playing downstairs, because we’re recording the show for podcast and there’s band music and I got really upset.

But I could you know, I knew enough of what you were saying. And as well I have my script of questions. And that’s the other thing. Don’t be afraid. It’s not uncommon where you get caught in a flow of conversation. You look at your paper and you just ask that question or where’s the next question that makes sense. So flip a page, It’s not a big deal. Right?

AW:  You know, it takes some confidence to do that, though.

DS: And knowing that, you know, this will take three seconds, the audience isn’t gonna care if I take three seconds to find a good question or looking at my page. And like you said on a podcast, you can edit that out. Or for a TV show. They can do another take. They might retake something. I do want to come back to the good interviewers, though, because there’s so much to talk about.

AW:  Yeah, tell me who… So you said the two that you were gonna …

DS: well, Charlie Rose, and Tavis Smiley, were two of my favorite interviewers. And the reason being that people are always being just themselves. Their guard is down. But on Charlie Rose, everyone let the guard down. It seemed so with Tavis Smiley. And I remember particularly Howard Stern, years ago being on on Charlie Rose, and just here’s the real guy, not the guy you hear on the radio.

This is really him just letting his guard down. I think today, Howard Stern is one of the best interviewers. And it’s interesting because you look at Tavis Smiley and Charlie Rose, who you find all these things about that… These guys are a disgrace. Howard Stern for years was considered by lots to be a pig. But he’s gone through all this therapy. And he really just engages people in interviews. His interviews are excellent. I don’t know if you saw his interview with Hillary Clinton?

AW:   No.

DS: He wanted to have her on before the election because he said, I really think I could have humanized her to a lot of voters. He was all for her. Trump asked Stern into introduce him at the convention, and he’s like, I’m for Hillary. Yeah. And what does it feel so you’re there on the day is when he’s getting sworn in and she’s just very, she let her guard down? Well, when celebrities come on as well, they all let their guard down. He just he really – he cares . He cares. And he’s interested. He’s not necessarily keeping to his script, but I’m sure there’s some people doing some research.

AW:  Oh, yeah, he’s prepared, but he’s also really smart. But you know what? It sounds… I keep thinking of the word charming. Yeah, these other two guys right? Jian Ghomeshi and Howard Stern. They’re all charming.

DS: Yeah, I never thought of those terms for any of those people. But I guess it does apply.

AW:  So charming in the sense that it’s almost like wow, he’s paying attention to me and he’s really interested in what I have to say.

DS: Well, that’s the thing is the interview should be about you, right? They should do less of the talking and let you ask you a question that you can just talk about, and get you to feel comfortable.

AW:  Maybe to be a good interviewer you want to you want to charm the person, not even not a nice, smarmy way.

DS: I’m sure there’s some people who’ve been out there have been good at it. I mean, obviously, Charlie Rose, and he did things that were very questionable. And I do listen to Marc Maron’s podcast WTF. If there’s someone I’m interested in, if there’s someone who I like to hear what they have to say. His interviews are quite good.

AW:  Yeah, I’ve heard a few of those.

DS: You know, you should listen to the Will Ferrell interview with Marc Maron. It’s talking about failure, a lot of Conan too. A lot of them talk about failure. So I think people like to see that other people have the same anxieties. These famous people are nervous about the same things. I think Marc Maron’s podcast is good. So is Howard Stern.

AW:   Conan O’Brien does that – kind of divulging the inadequacies that he may feel? I’ve heard him..

DS: yeah and Howard Stern said that that was his best interview ever. He named Conan as the best interview ever. They felt, he felt they really connected. It was a big deal. And I bought his book, but I haven’t read it yet. It’s his latest book, which is all interviews. He says this is my legacy – it’s my greatest achievement. The thing is, it’s the tone of the interviews, but and that’s the thing … everybody. Everybody lets their guard down with him. You know, and I think it’s because they trust him. We like Charlie Rose. People trusted him.

AW:  So I don’t mind making myself vulnerable here. Before we move on to the five rapid fire questions. I have a question for you that I did not pre issue.

DS: That’s okay. I’m fine.

AW:  But I want you to know that I am comfortable in you being completely honest. Do you have any advice for me on interviewing?

DS: just be yourself. Don’t worry if you flub something and don’t worry. Don’t worry about it. If you have a bad episode, who cares? If you … it’s like, I can’t bear this. Who cares? Then don’t didn’t release it! When I was in broadcasting school there they were like, it’s not … they kept saying it’s not brain surgery.

AW:  So we’re going to move on now to the five rapid fire questions. All right, ready?

DS: Oh yeah, that’s good.

AW:  First question. What are your pet peeves?

DS: slow moving people on the subway. In London, you have to move quickly. If you’re like walking up Oxford Street or you’re getting in the tube, and the tourists are just kind of standing there and it’s like, you’ve got to get out of get out of the way. Because the tube is horrible. And everyone just wants to get off the tube. When I’m on the subway here. People are like, Oh, the train is full. Like that’s not full. In London. You haven’t seen full there. It’s almost like London is maybe one half step away from Japan where there’s a guy forcing you on with a stick. Yeah, like you’re that close to people and wow, you know, so yeah, people need to move.

AW:  Okay, question number two. What type of learner are you visual, auditory kinesthetic, or some other kind of learner?

DS: listing and visual, like my cousin, he will talk to this whole time. He reads something in a book and retains it. Whereas if I watch a documentary, I’ll retain it for decades. I’ll retain that information better visually.

AW:  Question number three, introvert or extrovert?

DS: Bit of both to be honest. And I don’t think that’s a contradiction. There’ll be times where I’m just very quiet. I’m not really that comfortable at parties.  Nope, I’m not great at meeting people. I don’t like awkwardness.

AW:  Question number four: communication preference for personal conversations?

DS:  Well, now it’s texting. I’d always prefer to talk to people. I never liked emailing people. Sometimes I’d email someone I’d say, Hey, listen, please don’t take any tone in this. There’s no tone intended, because someone could read an email and say, oh, that’s really rude. Whereas on the phone, they don’t hear that because they can hear your tone, right? So if I’m making plans, I’d rather talk to somebody. But given the way things are today, it’s usually text. Sometimes with an emoji,

AW:  right, I was just gonna say that. So you add the emoji so people know you’re winky, or …

DS: that’s what someone else said to me. Always add an emoji. I was like, I don’t know. At the time I was thinking, I don’t know how to use emojis. And now,…

AW:   when we’re done here, we’re going to set up your bitmoji on your phone.

DS: I’ve got it!.

AW:  Okay, okay.

DS: Yeah.

AW:  Good. Question number five, podcast or blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately?

DS: Oh, that’s a good question. Like I said, if it’s someone I want to listen to, like a guest, I’m interested in WTF with Marc Maron.

AW:  Okay, yeah.

DS: And Greg Proops makes me laugh.

AW:  What other podcasts do you subscribe to?

DS: Canadaland.  I’m a Patreon member of Canadaland. I think they do some good work that otherwise gets looked over. Oh, sorry. And The Secret Life of Canada, I listen to that as well. Yeah.

AW:  Thank you very, very much for sharing your insights with me about interviewing.

DS: It was a pleasure. I talked too much. Enjoy editing this!

AW:  You’re supposed to talk too much! That’s funny.

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The post #44 HOW TO CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW with improviser, host & podcaster David Shore appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Proper posture and breathing can make us better communicators! Dr. Nadine Kelly (YogiMD) shares breathing and posture tips, relaxation techniques (deep breathing, alternate nostril breathing,  combining breathe with a mantra), differences between the parasympathetic (rest & digest) versus the sympathetic (fight or flight) phase, and why nasal breathing is healthier than mouth breathing.

Breathing and posture linked

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Nadine, for joining us here today to talk about how breathing and posture can help us with our communication.

Dr. Nadine Kelly: I am very honored to be here, Andrea, thank you for having me.

AW: I have to tell you that I’ve been thinking a lot about how this podcast topic in particular is going to make a huge impact, of course, to everybody, whether it’s professional or personal context, but also immediately.

NK: Right.

AW: Literally, as I’m sitting here, I’m thinking about how I’m breathing and my posture.

NK: I’m a very practical girl. So that’s what I believe in. Not just esoteric information, but information that we can really use in our daily lives.

AW: Well, I think this has to be at the top of the list. We born with an innate sense of how we should breathe and how we should sit and how we should stand. But I know that there’s also all sorts of research that can inform us about how to do that even better. So let’s get into that. Why don’t we start with breathing? And so my question is, what are the benefits of breathing quote unquote, properly?

NK: You’re absolutely correct in saying that as babies – you watch a baby, they know exactly how to breathe. You watch the baby’s belly rising and falling. And that’s really the key to proper breathing. Another thing that I’d like to say is that the body is a beautiful and efficient machine. If we only treat our bodies properly and allow them to do what they naturally do, then our bodies will serve us very well. Everything is also interconnected. So it’s impossible to really isolate one aspect of our mobility or our motility and not talk about other things. Therefore, when I talk about breathing, well, it’s connected with how we use our muscles. It’s connected with the health of our lungs, the health of our hearts, it’s connected to proper posture, it’s connected to circulation, it’s connected to our stress response. It’s connected to our muscular system. So that’s how I’ll preface why we need to breathe properly and how it’s easy to get back into it. It just takes practice. Because I interact with my students. And we’ve talk about breathing so much. I tend to get a lot of feedback where people are very frustrated. And they say, I’m not breathing properly. I don’t get it. I can’t I can’t do this. What’s going on? Here’s the thing: It’s habits. We form habits, and we fall into habits because they’re easy. But once you increase your awareness of how a habit is not serving you, well, you just practice. That’s all. You practice and you take baby steps and you just keep reminding yourself, and then you can get better.

AW: Your point about it being easy and taking the stress away or the anxiety away from trying to breathe properly, really resonates because personally and then also with my kids, I know that when I’m in a yoga class, and I’m trying to control my breathing, and sometimes I’ll actually feel adrenaline. The other thing is when I’m talking to my kids and they’re feeling anxious. And I’m giving them a backrub and I’m talking to them about how they’re breathing. They’ll say, Mom, that just makes it worse because now I’m aware of the fact that I’m not breathing. So can you just say expand a little bit more on how to go from awareness to practice?

NK: So what I’ll say is the adrenaline and the making it worse, makes a lot of sense, because that’s discomfort. Another layer that I’d like to add to that idea is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So you’re increasing your awareness about something it was comfortable before not to pay attention to your breathing, and now you decide, I would like to feel better. I would like to increase my energy or be able to get to sleep better, whatever your reasons are for wanting to focus on your breathing.  Just now, before the interview, I was doing a very hard cardio workout and the breathing has to change with that. And so yes, I was aware of using my breath properly for my muscles so I could increase the stamina and get through my workout. When you start to raise your awareness of something that used to be comfortable, because you didn’t have to think about it, that’s where the adrenaline and the discomfort comes in. And so then I just invite you to be patient with yourself and recognize, okay, this is going to feel terrible right now, because I’m increasing my awareness. But as I keep practicing, then that starts to go away. And here’s another thing and I’ve noticed this myself, when I fall into old patterns, because I’ve been feeling better with practice in a given situation with my breathing, it doesn’t feel good anymore to fall into that old pattern. So then you start to correct.

AW: well, that point is actually really empowering. Thank you. The next time I feel that a little bit of adrenaline and try to breathe I’ll realize that’s my senses waking up and saying something’s new and different and as you said, it might be uncomfortable, but that means you’re preparing yourself to change because you heighten your awareness.

NK: That’s a perfect way to put it. Growth is uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable.

AW: Love it. So what happens when we’re not breathing properly?

NK: When we’re not breathing properly, we’re not using the correct muscles. A domino effect happens because, again, everything is connected in our bodies. So certain muscles start to hurt. Certain joints start to ache, because they’re feeling pressure or the you’re stressing certain muscle groups more than others balance each other. And so then that’s where the pain starts to come in. That’s where the headaches come in. That’s where the neck pain comes in, then the shoulder pain. So then when you’re in pain, too, then you’re also increasing stress, right? Stress levels go up. Cortisol is increasing your bloodstream. Cortisol has a cascade of effects when we’re secreting cortisol on a chronic basis, such as decreasing your immunity, even making your bones weaker.

AW: Wow, yeah, that’s another thing that we don’t necessarily think about.

NK: But yes, cortisol does weaken bones, again, it’s a chain effect,

AW: what about in terms of our communication as the cortisol pumping through? What could happen to our ability to communicate effectively. And again, this could be physical or something that’s going on inside our brain.

NK: So let’s start breaking down the parasympathetic and the sympathetic response. When we are breathing properly, which I’ll talk about in a moment, we are oxygenating our muscles and our circulation correctly. And we are in the parasympathetic aspect of the autonomic nervous system, which is also the rest and digest phase. That’s where we’re supposed to be most of the time. Think about back in early times when we didn’t have the things that we take for granted now, like shelter and food. Food and safety. Those things for which your sympathetic nervous system is going into the fight or flight response. And that’s an emergency response. I’m in danger. I’m starving, I have to protect my family. Nowadays in our society, it’s much easier to be chronically stressed because of our lifestyle. Because we’re stimulated all the time. It’s very, very easy to be stressed. So we find ourselves in the fight or flight response, more the fight or flight response, then it releases the physiological responses, which makes sense because you’re preparing yourself for an emergency. So you’re ready to run, you’re ready to flee, you’re ready to fight. So that means that your heart starts to pump faster, your respiratory rates, you start breathing faster. Yeah, so that’s fight or flight. When you’re in the parasympathetic, rest and digest phase, that’s where you have more mental clarity where your heart is relaxed. It doesn’t have to pump as much as you can breathe at a slower pace. You’re calmer. Now you can think more clearly . You can speak more clearly. You can use your breath more effectively, to speak clearly, to project your voice, to pause to emit confidence. All of those things.

AW: So for many of us who are thinking about a communication context, the epitome of when the sympathetic nervous system is really in the fight or flight syndrome would be public speaking, getting up on stage with a mic. Do you have advice for us in terms of how we can manage our breathing to help us in that situation?

NK: Yes, it makes a lot of sense. We do need stress in our lives. I don’t want anybody to get that confused. We do need to be energized, a little bit of stress to motivate us to prepare to care about something right. Before I got to you for this podcast interview. I was a little bit nervous. I will fully admit that but that’s because I care. So I was in the sympathetic, ready to go mode, but then your parasympathetic nervous system should kick in so that you can calmly address and be present for your performance. So how would good breathing look in that situation? Well, starting to use the breath, which is diaphragmatic breathing. This is proper breathing, and I’ll break that down – what that means. Our diaphragm is our primary breathing muscle. The diaphragm is attached to your spine, your rib cage and your sternum. And the way we use it for proper breathing is to fully inflate our lungs and fully to deflate the lungs. When we fully inflate the lungs. On the inhale, we are taught as Americans, especially American women, this is where I am, right here in America, to flatten the stomach and squeeze the stomach at all times. But that’s actually counter to the breathing – that’s counter to diaphragmatic (or it’s also known as belly breathing), to inhale that diaphragm that’s attached to the bottom of the rib cages. It’s a cylindrical muscle. So when we take a good inhale, we’re supposed to let our bellies rise if you’re on your back, or in, if you’re sitting or standing, so that your diaphragm can descend a little bit into the abdomen, to make room for the lungs to fully inflate from the apex, which is the very top of the lungs. So the base of the lungs, when we’re doing shallow breathing, and we’re sucking in that stomach, we’re not allowing for the lungs that have room to inflate fully. It’s again, so beautiful because it’s a mechanical thing as well. Air moves from a place of higher to lower pressure. So when we the diaphragm descends, and we make room for the lungs to move down a little bit, that’s creating lower pressure in the lungs so that the air outside can come in more easily.

AW: As you’re saying that I’m pushing my belly out as I’m inhaling and I’m feeling that. It’s exactly what you described when you observe a baby sleeping on its back and you can see the belly rising and going down. Exactly.

NK: Exactly. Because as you said, it feels good, it’s natural. And then when you exhale, the diaphragm relaxes. And so then the lungs can diminish their capacity, there are other muscles that come into play too, your intercostals. Those are the muscles between your ribs also do help with inhalation and exhalation. So when all those muscles relax, then the volume within the lung goes down. So there’s more pressure inside the lungs than outside. So the exhale is easier.

AW: You made an interesting comment about how women are taught or they observe others pulling their stomach in. So I when I think about taking a deep breath, I don’t necessarily think about expanding my belly. I do you think about expanding my chest and maybe even pulling my belly in? What do you say to that?

NK: That’s just not the proper mechanics, right? And the reason why we’re taught to do that is for aesthetics. And the aesthetics are – at the end of the day – are not supporting good health, really. So the inhale is supposed to have an expansion widening of the abdomen. And then if you’re doing an active exhale, for instance, as I mentioned earlier, when you need to use your breath with more intensity, with purpose, cardio activity, a walk, lifting things, pushing things, that’s the phase where you draw your navel in towards your side, that’s when you squeeze your belly at the end of the exhale. What is that doing providing core stability. So ladies, if you want to strengthen your core, use your core on your exhale. In classes. I know I keep mentioning this, but in my classes, we practice picking things up or simulating a pushing motion like maybe with a wall push up and it’s at that exhale, when you squeeze your navel with the effort and you push it, then your core is able to remain stable so that your limbs can do their work. Core stabilization supports the movement of your arms and your legs, your hands and your feet.

AW: So it’s not that we’re letting our bellies go. It’s just that we’re not bringing them in unless we’re exhaling.

NK: Yes.

AW: Got it. You will be quoted on that. I promise you.

NK: Good. I hope to make some lives better.

AW: Yes, you already have! Back to going on stage then. I’m hearing that we need to be consciously inhaling through our bellies.

NK: Whatever you find relaxing to do beforehand, however you help yourself. Health is very personal and taking care of yourself I think is a very personal thing. Not everything works for one person versus the other, really. So what do you find relaxing – to relax you – to get you into that parasympathetic state. Here’s another piece of advice. Using a mantra, some people like mantras.  What’s mantra? A word or phrase that’s empowering. I did a very simple one today. I inhaled the word can. And I exhaled the word can’t. The way we talk to ourselves, impacts our well being as well.

AW: I really love your idea of combining breathing and a mantra! I brought up (and my other guest experts have brought up) mantras a few times in different contexts. And I think they’re incredibly powerful, but combining a mantra with breathing, that that could be really powerful, I think, especially when you’re walking out on stage.

NK: Oh, sure. There are other breathing techniques that you can use to before a performance, not just diaphragmatic breathing. Another way you can practice that diaphragmatic breathing if you’re not sure about it? If you’re not in a sitting or standing position, is to lie down on your back or your bed or wherever and place your hands on your abdomen. Let yourself feel your hands lifting towards the ceiling on the inhale and descending on the exhale. You can also move a hand to the chest and one to the belly, so that you can really feel the belly moving under the one hand and make sure you don’t feel as much movement or it’s not focused on your chest. So that’s one breath technique.  There are other breath techniques, like alternate nostril breathing, where you breathe through one nostril at a time. It’s very relaxing.

AW: Do you put a finger over your other nostril ?

NK: Do you want to practice?

AW: Absolutely.

NK: So what you’re going to do is you’re going to take your right hand and make a peace sign.

AW: Okay.

NK: Turn those two fingers in towards you and place them right in the center slightly above your eyebrows on your forehead. Your thumb will close off your right nostril and your ring finger will close off your left nostril, obviously one at a time. So we begin the breath, alternate nostril breath by closing off the right nostril with the thumb. Then you exhale. Then inhale only on the left, close it off with the ring finger, open up the right nostril, exhale through the right, only inhale on the right, and switch back. So that’s one round.

AW: Okay.

Alternate Nostril Breathing!

NK: Exhale first and inhale. And you can do that five to nine times. That’s alternate nostril breathing. Another relaxing technique, breath technique, is extending the exhale to a ratio of about two to one. So you would count and I always like to begin equal. So if I pick a number like four, which is easy, inhale on four and exhale on four. Then you can work your way into keeping the inhale at four and extending it to eight.

AW:  Got it. So your two examples that you gave us there of breathing exercises to help us relax more… it reminded me of something that I heard, when I was doing a little bit of research. There are some people who say we shouldn’t be focusing on breathing, because a lot of people will end up holding their breath. So the real lesson there is :don’t hold your breath, really?

NK: Exactly. But you do have to be aware of your breathing because in one article I read, it was written by an opera singer, and he said that on your exhales, is where you want to be able to complete a sentence. So as you’re working on your exhale, you’re talking, and then when you’re done with that sentence, you inhale. With that exhale, you’re using your breath, so that you can project your voice to the audience. And he said that gets rid of the question at the end of the sentence. That doesn’t sound very confident.  Also, it gets rid of the vocal fry, because he said, that’s not enough breath at the end. I thought that, that opened my eyes to learn that, right? So do use your breath again effectively to present yourself in a particular situation, whether it’s speaking or as I mentioned, whether it’s in yoga. That’s why we do so much breath work, so that we can make our way through range of motion or transitioning to another pose. And then in a cardio situation, you still need to have a rhythm to your breath in order to provide proper oxygenation to your muscles to improve stamina. So again, you’re using your breath in a different situation right?

AW: Right. That makes that makes a lot of sense. When I read this article, I thought they were just being sensationalist. The real point there is just don’t hold your breath and nowhere when you were talking about how to relax your breathing to help with your performance. You didn’t say anything about holding your breath, right? So it was all inhaling and exhaling. So let me move on then to a few different types of breathing. So my first question is about mouth breathing versus nasal breathing. So I’m curious whether there are different effects of them. And I say, anecdotally, I’ve heard people make fun of quote, unquote, mouth breathers, but then recently, I’ve been hearing and reading things about how reading through your mouth in some context may actually be advised.

NK: Anyone who knows me knows I love simplicity. One of my teachers said, this is the most simple and elegant way, and she said, this is how she talks to kids, “Your mouth is for eating and speaking, your nose is for breathing.” So now we have an easy way to start the discussion. Right?

AW: That’s easy to remember.

NK: It is. There are reasons why it’s healthier to breathe in and out through your nose and they are your nasal passages. That’s the direct way to inhale and exhale to get in and out of your lungs directly. Period. There are also –  almost like tunnels – flowing in to the nasal passages and into the respiratory system. Because the air is coming in and you want a little bit of turbulence because there are mechanics that are going on to make what gets into your lungs the healthiest, the breath that gets into your lung the healthiest. So your nasal passages are engineered to because of the lining the cilia in there. The cilia are hair like projections that filter out particles that are in the environment. The nasal passages also humidify the air that’s going into the lungs. To adjust proper temperature for what’s getting into your lungs as well. The nasal passages also warm the air that’s coming into the lungs. And then there’s a molecule nitric oxide that’s only made in the respiratory tract so you don’t get that if you open your mouth and breathe in and out. Get that into your nose and nitric oxide is powerful because and necessary because it’s a vasodilator. I’m going to repeat this again, I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but our bodies are engineered to just beautiful things when we use them, right. So the nitric oxide is there to help the vessels dilate. It relaxes the lining of the vessels in your lungs. So that the alveoli which are the – they’re grape-like clusters at the very end, the smallest possible unit in your lungs, where the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange takes place. That has to take place over a membrane. So think about it. If you have an agent like nitric oxide, which relaxes those vessels, then the blood flows easier. And so the gas exchange is going to be easier. That’s why breathing through your nose is more effective than breathing through your mouth.

AW: Wow, thank you so much. I ‘ve learned so much! Honestly, I thought it was just a social thing. I had no idea that there were all these physiological reasons. I knew there were some physiological reasons why nasal or nose breathing might be preferred… But thank you.

NK: I think part of that derogatory way of looking at mouth breathers comes about too is because there are mechanical things that happen when you breathe through your mouth predominantly. The shape of your face shifts.

AW: Really?

NK: Yeah, because that’s not what we’re supposed to be doing when we breathe.

AW: That makes sense. And I am so self conscious now of how I’m breathing. Let’s move on to posture then. Can you start with the benefits of proper posture?

NK: Let’s think about it just from what other see. Think about someone… And this is really important for women to think about this for safety reasons. Picture one person walking in a parking lot slouching.  Picture another woman walking in the parking lot erect. She’s looking around, she’s alert. A person who is likely to approach either one is going to choose the easiest target, the one who keeps looking down at the floor. So, I like to tell women – I have two daughters – So I like to tell them: nice tall posture so that you emit confidence. You emit being alert and aware. So that’s one thing from a psychological standpoint. The other thing is from a physical standpoint, good posture means that your muscles are working in cohesion. Your core muscles in the front of your abdominal muscles, all the layers of your abdominal muscles, your obliques on the sides, and all of the deep layers of your back muscles which all help support your core are all working together. If you slouch, then you’re putting pressure on your back muscles and your abdominal muscles are getting weak. So there’s an imbalance here. When you have muscular imbalance. Your muscles are not supporting your skeleton. You’re going to get misaligned. People with arthritis may worsen their pain, or you may even create arthritis – arthritis is because of the space between the joints wearing. So if you’re not aligning your bones properly, you’re increasing the chances of developing arthritis in those joints. As I said, muscular pain, you’re not breathing properly, because again, you’re not able to really access your diaphragm as well. Your ribcage is misaligned when you’re slouching and your energy levels, all that stuff that I just said, is going on. How can you be energetic when you’re in pain? It’s going to be more fatiguing.

AW: Wow.

NK: So I can go on and on. You have more anxiety, it increases anxiety.

AW: really?

NK: everything’s connected. Yes.

AW: Okay. So why don’t you take me and the listeners through what proper posture looks like and feels like?

NK:  Oh, I’d love to. Okay. Let’s start with sitting, because that’s what a lot of people find themselves doing. Although I would encourage you to get up every hour for a few minutes. But when you are sitting, it’s very important because it’s very easy to let ourselves develop a habit of slouching, and then gravity doesn’t help, because then it’s encouraging you to slouch further. And if you’re like us doing a lot of work in our computer, just keep reminding yourself to sit up nice and tall.

AW: How do we sit nice and tall?

NK: First of all, having your feet flat on the floor.

AW: okay

NK: …and making sure that the feet are positioned properly. So there’s positioning and then there’s muscular engagement, they go hand in hand. So here, let’s go through positioning first, feet flat on the floor, and when you look down at your feet, you make sure that they are parallel to one another. Another way to think of this – I’m a visual person – is the number 11. So your toes point straight ahead. Other alignment: you’re stacking your joints properly, ankles are underneath knees. And then let’s think about the positioning of our pelvis. So you’re not tilting your pelvis forward or tilting it too far back, it has to be like Goldilocks: just right. So if you think about your sits bones, which are the clinical term is ischial, tuberosities.

AW: Wow,.

NK: You should be balancing on those two points. Okay. So, another way to think about this is that your pelvis is a bucket. You don’t want your bucket tilted to forward or too far back. You can touch the front of your pelvis, your hip bones and make sure they are pointing straight ahead.

AW: Okay.

NK: Those are called your anterior superior iliac crests. Then you stack shoulders over your hips. Your shoulders are a little bit back. And how do you do that? Think about your shoulder blades. slide them down away from your ears, and slowIy squeeze towards one another until you feel your shoulders lined up in their sockets.

AW: got it.

NK: Then there are a few ways to think about head position, let’s use a couple of cues. The crown of your head touches the ceiling so that you can create length and space in your neck. And then think about the position of your head. If you take a line and draw it directly down the center of your ear, that line should intersect or bisect your shoulder in half. Okay, so ear over shoulder. You can also think of back of the head lining up with the back of the pelvis. That’s another cue. And then your hands are relaxed in your lap, either palms down or palms up.

AW: Got it.

NK: So that’s a proper sitting mountain pose in terms of alignment. Now, muscle engagement was the second part. You’re using your muscles in your everything together. In order to maintain a proper posture. You’re using your muscles in your feet. You’re using the leg and thigh. To keep your knees stacked over your ankles, you’re using all of the muscles in your torso to keep your shoulders over your hips. You’re using your neck muscles all together to keep your neck nice and long. Front, sides and back. And you’re relaxing your face. That’s always the last part. So that’s a seated Mountain Pose. And we call it mountain because what does that evoke? That evokes height.

AW:  Altitude.

NK: Yeah, so you want to sit nice and tall. And it’s a practice. Sometimes I find myself getting really engrossed in what I’m doing at the computer, and I start to lean. But because I’ve been practicing, it starts to hurt. And so I bring myself back to that nice seated posture or just stand up. You know, the standing desks to me are good because it reminds you not to slouch forward as well. Now, standing mountain pose is very similar to what I just described, except now you’re on your feet. So you’re stacking your ankles under knees under hips under shoulders. Now because we’re not sitting, we’re using the feet and the leg and the thigh muscles a little bit differently. Here’s something to watch out for. Okay? Don’t lock your knees. Don’t stiffen and lock your knees .Soften them just a touch so that you can start to feel your thigh muscles – front and back and sides and your buttocks also help. We forget that our buttocks are part of our core.

AW: Makes sense. It’s at the core of our body. That is very helpful. I’m going to be aware now. You know, I thanked my mother recently for sticking her fingernail in my spine whenever I slouched and I think I have pretty good posture and I’m the same as you. When I’m feeling tired or a little uncomfortable when I’m working. I often realize it is my posture, but going through that alignment, literally from your toes up to the top of your head. I found it incredibly helpful and I’m going to be even more aware and informed now about my posture.

NK: So yes, it’s good to remind yourself to sit up nice and tall. But why was I doing that? It can be very simple as I just forgot, and I’m falling into a bad habit. But if you find yourself having a difficult conversation, or you want to talk about a difficult subject with someone you really care about, what is your posture, saying? What are you setting yourself up for success? is some of the things that I’ve really learned myself thinking about. This idea of everything being connected,… if I can breathe, I just had a difficult conversation with some family members. everyone listening I’m sure knows that’s the worst. You go into something and you really care about someone. You do want to listen with empathy, but you know, it’s going to be a difficult talk. And emotions are going to run high. What can you do? Think about your breathing. Pay attention to your posture as you’re talking so that you can think. And you don’t let yourself go into fight or flight response because you’re hyperventilating. Or you find yourself holding your breath because you’re giving into feelings of powerlessness or anger. If you’re able to just bring yourself back to the breath, then sit nice and tall and listen. I had a much better time with that talk.

AW: That’s amazing. That’s a really really powerful message. I think.

NK: When I went into that situation last weekend, it was with intent.

AW: You gave me an incredible testimonial once about the ABCDE’s of Communication. I don’t know if you remember that? So A is ASKING questions. B is BREATHING. C is acting CONFIDENT, D is no DISTRACTIONS – focusing. And E is using your EARS and listening. And you just …

NK: We did all five things. And listen, I talked to my girls about it. And one of my girls used it to talk to her dad about something which he was not going to be happy about. But how else can you really maintain healthy relationships with people you really care about? If you don’t have the intent to go in there with the ABCDEs? They work. So you’ve got another testimonial. I used it again without even thinking about it. It worked. So now you understand a little bit more about the breathing component and the confidence component, right?

AW: Before we move on to the five rapid fire questions, is there anything else you want to add about posture or breathing?

NK: It’s cheap, it’s easy. It’s just a habit that you can do. All you have to do is practice so that you can feel better, to breathe better, to stand better, to sit better to be better in the world – to project the person you want to be in the world, rather than having life happen to you. So that’s the simplest piece of advice I would give to why you should care about improving your breathing and your posture.

AW: Beautiful. Thank you. Okay, we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions now if you don’t mind. First question, what are your pet peeves?

NK: It just, it’s silly, but Okay, I’ll just say it. Those people who don’t eat with their mouths closed. And lately as I’m getting older, being okay with being ignorant. When I encounter a person who doesn’t mind being ignorant, who doesn’t want to learn anything, or thinks that the world is just black and white? It’s hard for me to practice empathy. I’m working on it, but it is a pet peeve. Just people who are okay with ignorance.

AW: Oh, wow. Question number two, what type of learner are you? Visual, auditory or kinesthetic or some other kind of learner?

NK: I am definitely solidly kinesthetic, and visual. Oh my goodness, yes, I am not an auditory learner,

AW: which makes the fact that you’re a podcaster even more fascinating!

NK: Yes, but remember what I said about the ignorance. It was an opportunity for me to learn to strengthen that weak muscle. So I said, Okay, let’s do this.

AW: This is one thing that is very, very apparent about you is that you are very engaged in self improvement and education and knowledge.

NK: It’s a very important to me, and very important. Yeah.

AW: Okay, question number three introvert or extrovert?

NK: I think a good solid mix of both. I used to think I wasn’t extroverted but I don’t think you can be a podcaster and not be extroverted to a certain extent. I know that I couldn’t be the good teacher that I am. I don’t think that I could be the excellent teacher that I am, without being an extrovert. It’s about relationships. I think introvert because I do need alone time. I do need those times where I have no stimulation from anyone or anything.

AW: Question number five, your communication preference for personal conversations.

NK: I’m still old fashioned. I really like face to face. I like to see body language I like to there’s so much you miss in written communication, or it’s easy to miscommunicate because you don’t have those emotional or those tactile cues. So I still like to look a person and his or her eyes. I like to see how the shoulders are. I like to hear the tone in the voice. And quite frankly, I think it takes courage. I’m not a cop-out. So, and I know this sounds judgmental, but I feel like it’s easy to sit back and write something in a text. Think about it, shorten it, not send it, reword it. Versus, in real time when you have to look at a person and really think about what you’re saying, really control yourself and use those ABCDEs. I think, I think you’ve just gained more… We’re people – at the end of the day. We need to connect, we need to communicate, we need each other. And that happens to me most beautifully in person.

AW: Last question, not including your podcast or mine. Is there a podcast or a blog or email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most?

NK: I read Seth Godin’s blog religiously. And in terms of a podcast, one of my favorite podcasts is Dissect. I love music and the way he combines all the things that I love about being a person. He doesn’t take the easy road and just do kind of expected music. He’ll take one album, most of the time by hip hop artists, who it’s easy to, to write off. Oh, that’s just this type of music. I don’t listen to this type of music, all of these preconceived notions. And he says, I want you to challenge that. He goes through every song on the album, and he dissects it, why they make certain musical choices, why they picked certain instruments, the lyrics, the history, what was going on socially, as a contextual element around that particular song. What it means what some of the slang means, and at the end of it, if you didn’t have empathy or thought you you’re a black and white idea, a way of thinking made sense. You come up new learning so much about this person and why he made these choices, why the music is intelligent, why it’s so beautiful. And how music is such a universal language, that you’re just a better human being, I think listening to his show.

AW: Wow. Wow, what a heartfelt recommendation that is. I mean, I haven’t even heard the podcast and already I’m thinking about people I’m going to be recommending it to. It’s called Dissect?

NK: Dissect.

AW: Okay, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about posture, about communication, about breathing, about yoga, anything?

NK: I think underlying the messages we’ve been talking about today is just not being afraid to increase your self-awareness. It’s uncomfortable. And sometimes you do look in the mirror and you learn something about yourself through a yoga class or in a situation where you didn’t do your best or it didn’t go the way you wanted it to go. You let yourself overreact. But it’s just an opportunity to learn more about yourself. Be uncomfortable with that. Maybe you had a preconceived notion. I’m not the type of person who says x or does x. Well, given a particularly stressful situation, maybe you did revert to that. Maybe you did learn something about yourself, but it’s an opportunity for growth. And so I always love to encourage everyone to do the work of increasing self-awareness.  To be the best person you can in this world.

AW: Very, very nicely put, I think we will leave it at that. Thank you very much Nadine!

NK: Thank you.

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The post #43 POSTURE & BREATHING with Dr. Nadine Kelly, YogiMD appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you know how to tell your story effectively? The story you tell could be at work in conversation with your boss, in a job interview, or perhaps you seek to write a novel? Best-selling author and legal veteran Norman Bacal shares how stories are impactful because they connect us through our emotions and life experiences, how the best lawyers are the best storytellers, why we should all have a rehearsed 60 second infomercial about ourselves, the process of writing fiction and non-fiction, how to address the media, and the power of metaphors.

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us, Norman.

Norman Bacal: Oh, thank you for having me.

AW: If you don’t mind, I’d like to start with some background. I’m curious. Were you always a writer?

NB: It’s an interesting question, because it’s got two answers to it. If you had asked me before my 40th birthday or earlier, did I ever think I would write a book? The answer was never. But I actually started my career doing a lot of writing, particularly as a student and young lawyer. My boss was asked to give many speeches, and he had to publish articles and I pretty much wrote all of them for him. So I did a lot of writing early in my career. I wrote my first technical article when I was about a fifth year lawyer. It had to do with actors coming to Canada. So I did a fair amount of writing in the first – probably 10 years of my career. And then as my career advanced, as I became more successful, I discovered what successful lawyers discover, and that is your phone never stops ringing. You spend most of your time either in meetings or on the phone. And all the writing is now done by junior lawyers who are working for you. Then as I advanced forward into management that continued even further, so the higher up I got in the organization, the shorter my attention span got, the less writing I did. And as I said, by my 40th birthday, the one thing I knew for sure was that I was never going to write a book. I was reading good authors on vacation. I can remember the moment it happened to me, I was reading The English Patient by Michael Ondaatje – and I read it I put the book down, at about the halfway point, and I looked at my wife, and I said, I will never write a book.

AW: Oh, you explicitly said that?

NB: Yes.

AW: that’s amazing.

NB: But career goals change.

AW: Did you ever keep a journal or any kind of – write anything personal like that before?

NB: I kept a journal for six weeks when I was 19 years old on a trip to Israel. I actually filled one of those empty books with writing and that was my summer goal. And from that point on, I never lifted a pen. No interest. Although once I became a managing partner at Heenan Blaikie, I said, you know, it would be really smart to just keep a regular journal of not only what I was going through, but what my feelings were and, and the events. And of course I did none of that.

AW: Right. I think many of us have good intentions.

NB: I can’t tell you how many people I’ve run into who say “I’m sure I have a book in me.” Well, sure, so you can get it out.

AW: And we’ll get into that. Most people do have a story.

NB: Right.

AW:  So one other question. Just focused on what you said about the career trajectory, perhaps of a typical lawyer. Do you think that lawyers generally make good writers?

NB: I would say probably we’re above average, if you look at the population in terms of writing skills. Because just to survive law school, you have to be able to write. One of the key things that you’re taught, one way or the other, is how to communicate, particularly in writing. And as a young lawyer, particularly if you’re being trained properly, there’s somebody watching you all the time and making very certain you are very precise.

AW:  So I’m just going to add this quote here from your book on page seven, you talk about Danny, who taught you to be meticulous, and this is the quote. He says, “Every word has a meaning and every meaning must be applied with precision. Ideas are meant to be expressed in a particular way. As lawyers we craft with words, and our task is to master them.”

NB: I don’t think he particularly meant written word as opposed to spoken word.

AW: He meant both?

NB: Yeah. But he particularly stressed – It was interesting, because Peter Blaikie was probably one of the best litigators that the province of Quebec ever produced. And he actually ran for office a couple of times even. He ran for the leadership of the party. Peter’s name was on the door, the law firm. He was magnificent in court, and he could take a losing argument and find a way to convince a judge that it was the winning argument. But Danny was a big stickler.  Anyone can walk into a courtroom with bad facts, create an argument that will fool someone for a short period of time. But it’s only by writing them down and capturing them that you’re able to prove that it works. Because on review, your words aren’t going to hide somewhere. They’re there, they will always be there on the page.

AW: So I know this is getting technical, but when you’re in a court of law, it is being transcribed. Right? So it is it is formally documented.

NB: Yes, but, and I was not a litigator for a living. I litigated, I think, seven cases in my entire career, and they were all early on. But the one thing I’ve discovered, and this was much later in my career, is that success in a courtroom, the people who are the greatest successes are the best storytellers. And it’s not just about who has the best legal brief. It’s sometimes about who tells the best story, who conveys the story, and actually captures the emotion. Because judges are human. They are subject to the same frailties. And when two parties come to court, very often the judge is looking for – it’s not necessarily who wins on the legal technicality, but more so who in his heart or her heart-of-hearts ought to win, based on the details of the case. So if you understand how to tell the story, to tug on those heartstrings, you probably have a much better success record in court than anyone else.

AW: What are some techniques or tactics that a great litigator, for example, might use in crafting that story?

NB: It starts and ends with storytelling, to be able to take a boring set of facts and convey them in a way that captures the judges’ attention. And litigators will tell you this, you can’t afford to lose the judge. The judges are human. They’ve shut their brains down. They’re no longer listening to you. I did some studies. I discovered the average attention span is eight minutes. And at the end of a courtroom, or anyone, anywhere, the average person’s attention span is: they will start to drift after a few minutes unless you come up with little tricks to keep their attention going.

AW: So be honest, eight minutes is higher than I thought.

NB: Well, in this in the computer age, maybe it’s down to two.

AW: Yeah.

NB: But if you can’t figure out a way to continue to be interesting, and to tap into people’s emotions, you know, no one is ever going to remember what you said when you make a speech, but they will always remember how they felt when they left the room.

AW: I’ve heard that. That’s absolutely brilliant. Okay, maybe one of the most important strategies or tactics for developing a good story is to make people feel emotions, bring them on an emotional journey.

NB: You have to take them on the journey you have, and I’ve certainly learned this writing fiction, you have to be able to tap into their experience. So it’s not just your experience. Most people are, you know, they have one subject that interests them far more than any other subject and that’s themselves. So you need to be able to get there to get into their heads to tap into some story that you’re not even telling, but that parallels some story they’ve lived. Great litigators also know how to read people. So you have to read your judge. You know, when you’re losing someone, and I can’t tell you how many lawyers I’ve met, that are completely self-unaware, that they just cannot read people. And if you can’t read people, you can’t possibly win a case.

AW: This is leading a little bit into listening, which is another topic that we’re talking about. But I have to say when I read Breakdown, I had a slightly positive bias coming in because I had met you on the phone and I know people that think very highly of you. So I found Breakdown to be incredibly relevant and compelling. And you know, I consciously wasn’t thinking of myself in the story, but I probably was thinking about what I would do. Anyway, it is absolutely a fantastic story. And the fact that it’s real, makes it all the more compelling. So shifting to your writing of this story. I have a question about when you were living the story before you started writing it. Did you ever think yourself, “this is a story that needs to be told?”

NB: The simple answer to that question is absolutely not. When you are living a crisis, you are living it, you are breathing it, you are taking it to bed with you. You are either sharing it with your loved ones or you’re not. And if you’re not, you’re become slowly but surely this horrible person that’s going through this on your own. But ultimately, the stress of going through a difficult situation. And for us, it was a business breakdown. But the case of other people’s? It could be sickness, or losing a loved-one, or some crisis in your life. You’re focused on only one thing, and that’s getting through the next day. And you might have a path forward in terms of where you think it needs to go. And in my case, that becomes the only driving force in your life. Put everything else aside, this is all you’re going to deal with. There’s no notion that one day I’m going to write a book about it. And even as it was failing, and even in the early days post failure, people would come to me and say, “well, that must have been quite an experience to live through!” And I can remember my thinking was, because they’re trying to make you feel better. And they’re saying, “well, it’ll make you stronger”. And I’m thinking to myself as well, “you live through this and you get stronger – because I can’t see how this is ever going to make me stronger.” And why? Because when you’re in it, and even in the post stress of living through it afterwards, you can’t see anything good coming out of something like this.

AW: I was questioning whether I should actually even ask you that question. Because as a director of the firm, you are responsible for a strategic level of oversight and direction. But then to have that even higher level of meta thinking like, in my life, what does this experience represent? It’s crazy because your very survival depended on what your course of action was and what your direction was to the firm.

NB: So it was interesting. It was fairly simple. If we’re going to jump forward to the end days, just for people who haven’t read the book. There was a one-year period where I was out of management and literally I was a spectator to this, which was probably the worst part. First of all, because it’s one thing when you believe you have the power in your hands to affect the outcome, it’s quite another when you’re a passenger on the ship and you see it’s beginning to sink. And you know, it’s in the hands of a captain, you just cross your fingers and hope they know what they’re doing. And each day starts to feel a little more bleak when you as you slowly come to the realization that things are not getting better. So for a quite a long period of time, I was quite powerless and that is probably the worst possible feeling in the world. I have to say in the final two months, when I step back into a leadership position, the ship was halfway sunk at that point in time. It was. And I’m, in some respects, a little bit embarrassed to say, it was the most exciting and invigorating experience I’ve ever lived. Because here I was with the opportunity to step in. I did a one-week analysis as to how to save the patient. I came up with a plan. I became extremely enthusiastic that we could actually pull this off, that we could save the firm, that life would go on and that things would be okay again. And the adrenaline rush coming from those feelings carried me for almost two months. And in that period I used to feel almost a euphoria. Like I’d say, I’d probably liken it to feeling like Superman. I can do anything. I can do this. We are going to succeed and why? Because your brain cannot allow for an even an inch of doubt. Because as soon as you start doubting yourself, you’re finished. Right? So I had to believe, and this is Norman, in hindsight, looking back, as opposed to Norman prospectively looking at it. I had to believe that this was going to be a success that we were going to be fine. And it wasn’t about ego so much as here’s just one more challenge in my life. I can pull this off.

AW: well, you would have regretted it if you hadn’t tried that.

NB: I can’t even imagine not trying.

AW: So you said that in the couple of weeks after the firm ceased to exist legally, that everyone was coming to you and consoling you. They had words of wisdom to share. And you just kept thinking, “This was such a horrific experience. Why don’t you try it?” You know, you want to talk about resilience! What was your main inspiration to write the story?

NB: My entire adult life was attached to the firm. I spent the last 25 years of my life building it. To me, building it meant the name Heenan Blaikie was on the wall of the building where it was sitting along with the names of three other firms at the corner Bay and Adelaide. So that was a big deal. It was the space we had. It was all of – not just the lawyers, but all the support staff. You know, we had helped create their lives. And I was a big believer that if you’re going to work, you’re going to have fun working, and that this was going to be a great experience in your life. And that was our firm philosophy. So here we were coming out of that and being perceived by the world … the Newspapers called it the greatest Canadian failure in Canadian law firm history. Well, how do you like being associated with that?

AW: that’s not a nice superlative.

NB: No, exactly. Not the one you want to be your legacy. And ultimately, my wife came to me about three months later after the firm’s demise. So it was February. She came to me and in June, with, what they used to call it, a nothing book. It was just a book that’s empty with about 200 pages in it. And she put it down on a table beside me and she said, “Listen, you have two choices. You’ve become a very angry person. And you need to process your feelings. And either you’re going to write them down, or you’re going to go see a therapist. Those are your two options right now, because you can’t continue being this person.” So I thought about it for just a couple days. And just getting back to your diary question. I had never kept a diary. I always wished I had. I didn’t even know where to start. So I said it. You know what I’m going to start from a feeling perspective. I’m going to write what the last day felt like. Because I insisted on being the last person to leave. I felt like literally the captain going down with the ship. It was Valentine’s Day, it was a Friday night and I was looking out the window, it was dark out over Lake Ontario. And there was nobody left and I walked around the hallways and there were these huge boxes that you collect recycling in. And there’s a little bit of literal leftovers, but otherwise it was the place was a tomb.

AW: I have to tell you that it was very vivid image and, and I thought you were talking about the process of writing the story, but you’re also talking about how the book unfolds. So it is written chronologically, I guess, with the exception of the very beginning. It does start with this.

NB: When we were publishing, I concluded that the book has to start at the end because the process started at the end. And once I finished writing that’s how that felt. I said okay, … because there was no way I was emotionally ready to look at the final year and everything that we went through. So I said, you know what? I always talked about keeping a diary. I’m going to go back to day one in law school and bring it forward. And then at some point, I’ll be, I’ll be ready to write about this. And I thought, well, it’s, you know, it’ll be a really nice memento for my children. It’ll be my memoirs. It’ll be for my children only. There’s no more firm. I can’t take them to visit. But what I can do is tell them, this is the story of my life. And it was handwritten. By the time I got to the last year, I had been writing from mid-July to mid-December.

AW: Okay, that’s pretty quick, actually, isn’t it?

NB: It was just every story I could remember. And I just wrote them down. Some of them I couldn’t remember the chronology. I didn’t care. I just wanted to have it. I’d filled up pretty close to six of these books. And I developed an abscess on my finger and that’s when I knew it was time to take a break. And then I came back, we took a family holiday, we came back at the beginning of January, I said okay, now I’m going to type it up. And at that point, I typed it in and that’s how I that’s how I learned how to type. You know, until then I was a hunt and peck kind of email sender. I probably type about 35 words a minute now, but although 34 of them are wrong.

AW:  yeah.

NB: Like, my fingers are dyslexic.

AW: It’s funny, you know, a lot of people know that they should learn to type. And it’s not until it’s not until I was actually writing my dissertation that I really learned how to type fast. But there we go, we are creatures of necessity.

NB: So I wrote it down. And then the Danny fellow I mentioned earlier… I had the 750 pages of manuscript and I hadn’t spoken to him in years, and I picked up the phone and called him. And I said, “Listen, I’ve written a memoir of the firm. I’m a little shaky on the parts in the period that I hadn’t joined the firm yet – in the early years. Would you mind reading that?” He said, “Well send me the whole thing.” He said, “I’m very curious about what happened after I left the firm.” When he and I were finished with it. I called a friend of mine who was an agent and a friend of mine in Los Angeles, who’s a producer. He said, “Listen, send me the first 50 pages.” And he actually sent back some script notes and the agent, we spoke for about 15 minutes and he said, “Listen, call me back when it’s 300 pages, because no one’s that interested in your life!” So that’s exactly what I did. It’s interesting because no one teaches you how to write a book unless I suppose unless you study English and you learn, take creative writing.

AW: It’s true. They tell you how to write essays. And that’s it.

NB: Yeah, the hardest part is to find the storyline in all your stories. So compiling this meant a lot of the 400 pages are on the floor, some of the most salacious stuff. And certainly the one thing I did discover was, I left a lot of my anger on the floor.

AW: Oh, that’s fantastic. So it was cathartic?

NB: And that’s what it was supposed to be – a cathartic experience. And by the time I was about a year out, the anger was gone. And after the book was published, once I started, once I went on a speaking tour and I’m still on it, and talk not just about the experience, but everything I learned about building a career, building an organization, leading an organization, I slowly but surely discovered that I had no anger left. I was actually able to look at it, at least from my perspective, objectively, and come to my own conclusions about what we did right and what we did wrong.

AW: Okay, I have so many questions that I want to ask you, starting with something that occurred to me probably when I was reading the second chapter. If I was a lawyer, writing the story about a law firm with a bunch of lawyers, I would be pretty afraid of other lawyers being litigious. That must have crossed your mind.

NB: Oh, that absolutely crossed my mind. So I had I had a rule of thumb. And this I say, somewhat facetiously, but if I was going to write a story about you, and you had way more money than me, I was going to be very careful. And if I thought you had less money than me, I worried a little bit less. So that it’s a bit of a joke, but there are a few people who I write about where the chapters were probably rewritten at least 15 times and then read by my lawyer to make sure I was on the right side of it. Interestingly enough, I only got one threat. That was before the book was published, by one of the anti-heroes of the book. Yeah, I suppose if you picked it up and read it, you figure it out.

AW: Yeah. I can’t actually remember his name…

NB: It doesn’t matter, because I’m not going to mention it now. And he called and said, Listen, just so you know, I am litigious. And if there is a shred of evidence in here of libel, I won’t hesitate.” I couldn’t help myself. I listened carefully. And I waited till he was finished. And I said, “Well, I guess there’s you only have one choice at this point in time.” He said, “What’s that?” I said, “You’re just gonna have to buy the book and find out.”

AW: Oh, brilliant. I love it. I love it. I thought you were gonna say, “I assumed nothing less.” Which of course is true. Another question that I have is: did it occur to you that this book would make a great movie?

NB: I didn’t really think so. A few people have said maybe a TV show but the problem is with writing about reality is you do have to be extraordinarily careful about libel. So it could turn into a really good fictional show. The problem is no one would believe it – based on what you see about law firms in either in Hollywood or on Canadian television. It’s not real life, probably any more than the hospital shows are

AW: right. It drives doctors crazy. That’s funny. Did you when you were writing it, and maybe even more when you were editing it and refining it, did it cross your mind that you are being implicitly prescriptive and teaching lessons to people who may be creating cultures, creating organizations?

NB: It occurred to me when I sat down, I had breakfast with Jonathan Kay, formerly of the National Post, fantastic writer, and I’ve known him for many years, and I gave him an early draft of this. He looked at it he looked at the draft. He said, “Norman, you’ve written three books here, three books that have never been written before.” One is a case study on how to develop as a professional. He said, “If you separated that out and sold it, that would be a successful book. So then you’ve written a book on how to build an organization and philosophies behind building a successful organization.” He said that too on its own would be a successful book. And he said, “The third one you’ve written, which is also unique,” He said, “You’ve written a book on the elements of the breakdown of an organization as an insider, as opposed to an outside forensic analysis of what happened. Nobody ever writes about their own failures like this.” And I went back, I thought about it for a week. And being the stubborn person that I am said, Okay, I’m not separating this into three books. But internally for organization purposes. That’s exactly what I’m going to call them. So the book is actually set up as  book one, book two, book three.

AW: Thank you, Jonathan Kay.

Yeah. And really, that’s what it is, is three separate case studies, and I think makes it a little more compelling. Certainly when I speak at universities, and the theme of my lectures is “I used to be you.” How did I get to be me? It’s really book one of this the first third of the book and better, what are the things that they’re not teaching you in school that you need to add to your playbook in terms of skills in order to succeed as a professional.

AW: I’m wondering what part of this process was the most difficult and also what part was the easiest for you?

NB: The easiest is the writing. The first draft was was easiest. It’s …

AW: I have to stop you right there. So many people say that writing is incredibly difficult and way more difficult than people think it is. And you’re saying that was the easiest,

NB: What I discovered and it’s like anything else, once you once you develop a habit, and I developed a habit of writing, at minimum three hours a day, so I’d come home from work at around nine o’clock, I’d sit down at the kitchen table, and I would start to write and my rule was, I’m not allowed to get up till I’ve written six pages. That was just my rule of thumb and what I discovered after a shorter period of time that I expected it to happen. I read this book once. It’s says you can create or break any habit in 21 days. So if you do anything for 21 days consecutively, it’s a habit and it becomes hard to break. And this was true. It got to the point where I couldn’t go a day. And sometimes I had trouble not writing on the weekends is that

AW: so was that because you thought you were going to lose momentum? Or is that because you were actually starting to internalize this positive reinforcement, the effects of writing?

NB: Once I started writing, the stories just started coming, pouring out, I couldn’t get to them fast enough. And I had 35 years of stories to tell. And many of them were completely disconnected. But they were just interesting stories. And once I was going I had this habit I, you know, got to the point where I couldn’t wait for work to be over — classic work to be over — which I began to dislike more and more every day, as the writing was replacing it. One might call it a preoccupation. In reality had developed into an obsession.

AW: preoccupation, perfect word.

NB: That was the easiest. Ultimately, the hardest part is the flip side. The part that makes it so worthwhile, I can’t think of the exact word but the part that I find the most ….

AW: compelling?

NB: thank you, the most compelling piece is the teachings that come out of it and my ability to teach. And, you know, and the evolution of my next career, which is as much as anything else, a teacher. So here I am, I’m in this new career, and I’m focused on passing it on. It’s like passing on every bit of wisdom that I learned from others. I don’t pretend to be, you know, wise on my own. It’s all lessons that I picked up from others along the way that I now feel the compulsion to pass along. And the cost? I have some partners who don’t want to talk to me anymore, or who avoid me.  There are a lot of them who have refused to read the book.  Only a few, on the basis that I never should have written it. That I’ve broken the code by pulling back the curtain to show what happens in law firms.

AW: Wow

NB: but then there are others who found this also to be the most troubling part of their life. And even the notion of opening page one is like ripping off the scab. They’ve gone on with their lives, they buried their anger, it’s still there. They haven’t,… I’ve had the opportunity to process my anger.

AW: What you’re really talking about is resilience. And I think back in those decades when this was happening, resilient, the word resilience, obviously existed. But it wasn’t on the tip of our tongues. And nowadays, the audiences of university students that you’re talking to now, resilience is a key trait that we’re all seeking, right?

NB: Yes. And I’ve always considered myself fortunate. It’s in me genetically. It’s not something I had to go out and seek and find. I still remember my first interview at Heenan Blaikie as a law student and they didn’t hire me. They didn’t hire me for quite a number of years …

AW:  You came in through the back door, I think?

NB: Yeah, but trying to get through the front door. The question the interviewer asked me – the following question: “How do you behave when you’re under stress?” In the first interview, and I remember I heard the question. I’m thinking to myself, well, the real answer is I don’t usually feel stress. Like what stresses most people just doesn’t stress me. But I know if I answer that, either they’re not gonna believe me or they, they’re going to think I’m a headcase. That was the honest answer. I just don’t process stress the way other people do. I feel it, but when it’s happening, my reaction is usually Okay, let’s deal with it. I’m a “Let’s deal with it” kind of guy, which is quite unusual for lawyers, in fact,..

AW: really? Because I think a lot of successful lawyers seem to be that way. It is exceptional, but maybe not as exceptional in law.

NB: It is. And this by a clinical psychologist, so I’ve studied he’s interviewed well over 10,000 lawyers, his name is Dr. Larry Richards. He’s a doctor as well as being a lawyer.

AW: okay.

NB: And his conclusion is, compared to the average population, we are incredibly less resilient.

AW: Really?

NB: We are more analytic than the average. Considerably more analytic. We are highly skeptical, and I’m not sure whether the law schools attract that kind of personality or they train it.

AW: Probably a combination.

NB: What he was saying is particularly for law firm leaders, it’s important to understand that we generally assume when we’re reviewing staff, when we do reviews. The common wisdom on reviews was the critical sandwich. So between any piece of criticism, you should have at least two positives, right?

AW: Right! I actually talked about that in another episode.

NB: And when it comes to lawyers, it’s not correct. It’s more like – the ratio is more like – four to one.

AW: Wow. So another great thing about the Breakdown story is that it gave me an insight into what lawyers are like. And as you say, they may not be as resilient as, as we thought they were, or, as I guess as desensitized as I had in my mind, they may be. There was a great quote that I absolutely loved. I stopped. I underlined it. I folded the page.  On page 248. He said, “Lawyers with time on their hands are management’s worst nightmare. Like dogs who run in circles, pee on the carpet and chew on furniture when they haven’t been walked in the morning.” and I thought, Wow, that is beautiful. And then I started to think about many of the other metaphors and analogies that you had included. And a few of them would be when you were talking about Danny’s story and the Hotel California – how you could never leave.

NB: Right

AW:  and karate lessons. So the story of you signing up for karate with your son and then going through and getting your black belt – in several degrees, I think – a black belt. And how that was a similar story to your career. And then later on in the book, you talked about how a number of partners in the firm deserted the marriage. So I guess as a storyteller, I was wondering if you could share a little bit with us how you come up with these powerful metaphors and analogies when you’re writing?

NB: A great question. And it’s particularly interesting because when I finished Breakdown, I had already started writing my first fiction, again at my wife’s instigation. Because again, I didn’t think I had fiction in me and writing your similes and your metaphors is a much more critical component than it is in writing a nonfiction.

AW: Why? Why is that?

NB: Because, I used to think fiction was you simply make up a story and you write it and you’re done. Which should be a lot easier than writing Breakdown, for example, which is, you have to be careful. Your facts have to be right. When a story is going the wrong way, you’re stuck with it. You can’t fix it, you just have to go with at least what your version of the truth of that story is. Whereas in fiction, as a reader, it all appears to be so random. And it isn’t. Fiction, in fact, is just the opposite. And this is something I had to learn the hard way. And it took me four years to learn it. In fiction, everything is connected right down to the last simile and the final metaphor. So I may be describing this coffee cup on the table sitting between us. But to tell you it’s a red coffee cup is a bore to a reader. But if I can tell you the symbolism of red and what it means to me, and if I take you through the thought process of the red cup that my great grandfather passed along to me as a child, and therefore the fact that you put a red cup on this table is the most meaningful thing you could ever do for me, creates a bond between you and me that you are not aware of, that I’m aware of, that the readers aware of. But suddenly this red coffee cup takes on a whole life of its own in fiction. And if you can do that, as a fiction writer, you have succeeded.

AW: And to your point that you made earlier, it evokes emotion, right?

NB: So when I talk about lawyers in Breakdown, it’s a kind of a standing joke. Some call it herding cats, but I always liken them to a pack of wolves or dogs. And therefore, when I was thinking, when I was just thinking through the writing process of that sentence. Who knows. I can’t tell you why it flashed in my head. But I had always likened lawyers to dogs in one way, shape, or form. And it just, sometimes the ideas just pop into your head and you go with them and you finish writing it and of course, I finished writing it when I’ve rewritten it for the hundredth time. Readers have a tendency to believe that the story kind of writes itself, between first draft and publication. I’m writing frontwards, backwards, sideways, upside down right side up and looking for every possible connection from beginning a book to the end. And it’s about searching for those connections. It was interesting. I had a comment from one reporter who reviewed the book. And in our interview, he said, “I had no idea that lawyers were real people. That they behave just like the rest of us.” And in some respects, they’re worse. But he said, as much as anything else, I had to bring home the humanity of the lawyers in this book. We’re not these gods on pedestals, like we need to be for our clients. Yes, that’s an act we play when somebody comes in, when we ned to be objective. But as soon as you put us into a subjective situation that affects all of our lives, we behave just like you, in fact, sometimes worse.

AW: But the other thing that you were documenting, or maybe reifying, is the fact that successful people can be associated with failure.

NB: Successful people are always associated with failure. What you generally see, there are few of us who have been successes in our life, who have known nothing but success. And I always felt it and it was, it was more when I actually went through what I did go through that I learned way more from my failures. And I had to document them in here. Just – I made some terrible mistakes as managing partner and I learned from them. I learned all kinds of things from them. And it made me a better leader.

AW: One of the top podcasters out there, and also author, Tim Ferriss, he often introduces his interviews with the experts with a reminder to the listeners that we all put our pants on one leg at a time. And this person may have achieved mega stardom, mega celebrity, and mega success, but they learned lessons along the way from their failures that got them there. So that’s the resilience thing, right? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

NB: Yeah. Looking at, frankly, if you go back to the beginning of the book, I talk about how my first four years of practice, I was going nowhere fast. I wasn’t aware of it at the time, but I got a review at the end of my fourth year that was less than stellar. And it was to put it in a nutshell, you have all this talent, you should be further ahead of where you are right now. But I can’t tell you why you’re not. So imagine getting that kind of review. And that’s that was the wake up call for me. Actually more for my wife. She was one who spent probably four hours explaining to me what that meant. But I woke up the next morning, literally, I would say a new person. And it was a transformation you’d probably only see in a movie, but I decided that was it. I was until that point.

AW:  That was when you provided an ultimatum at that point, right? Based on your wife’s encouragement. You said, you went back and you said, “this is not acceptable.”

NB: I said it’s not acceptable. But I still didn’t understand what it meant. And what I did about it was I took control of my career at that moment in time. I said, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do,” and I started discovering things about myself that were always there to be found, take the initiative, get out ahead of it, never ever cede control if you don’t have to. And I say that in a more of a positive way than it than a negative way. But I mean, if you have the opportunity to achieve something, go for it. Don’t wait for somebody to step up into it. And from a leadership philosophy perspective, sort of became my, my love vacuums. And that is, if you want to succeed, look for the vacuum and fill it. Don’t look around and say, I wonder why nobody’s taking care of this. Do it.

AW: When you said, vacuums, I thought you were talking about your early days.

NB: Yeah. Well,

AW: it’s an interesting choice of metaphors.

NB: I suppose that ever occurred to me until this moment.

AW: fill the vacuum. And there you go. Another metaphor. One other thing before we move on to other types of storytelling. I just, it occurred to me when I was reading it, and now again in this conversation, that your wife had a huge impact on the story of your career, didn’t she?

NB: Yes, she did.

AW: Wow.

NB: And that brings us back to the marriage metaphor. She’s always been there for me to pick me up when I was down. To sometimes to push me along when I was going too slowly. Most important, she has always held me to a standard that I haven’t always held myself to. She always believed I was capable of more than I might have thought up at the time. She told me I had to trust her.

AW: Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds as if she had so much respect for you. And you knew that and therefore, there was such a positive lens on everything that she was saying. Okay, let’s shift gears then to other types of stories and storytelling. So when I think of storytelling, the first thing that comes to my mind is being in the elevator with the president or the CEO of the organization that I was working for, and thinking, gosh, I wish I had a great answer to when she asked me, “so what’s going on Andrea?”  So this it’s not exactly an elevator pitch, but the short form narrative of what’s going on in your career. Can you talk a little bit about how important that is?

NB: Wow, that was a loaded question.

AW: Yeah. So I have this – I honestly have this visceral visual image of it. There was a glass elevator. She gets on and I go, “Oh, God”, and she goes, “Andrea, what are you working on these days?” I’m such a loser. I have no idea what to say.

NB: And we all go through that. Even some of us who’ve had success or in the mid points in our career, we have those moments where we say Oh, God, I wish I had the canned speech ready for that moment. There’s a fellow by the name of Jim Beqaj. He’s written a fascinating, it’s a tiny little book on job interviewing. And it’s all about matching yourself to the place where you work so that you’re aligned. What Jim advises is before you go out and interview you should actually sit down and do your 60 second infomercial on yourself. I know it cold, and that the 60 second infomercial is about who you are, what you think is important, what you want to get out of any job you take. And then you play that when you go for your interviews. And I know we’re all worried when we do that, well, they might not like the real me. I need to project what I think they want me to be, not what I am. And Jim says that’s the recipe for job disaster. You’re way better off not getting hired because the employer looks at you and says, That’s not the kind of person we’re looking for. Then when you take that job, and they discovered two months later, that’s not the kind of person we were looking for. But they made the mistake because you’ve been too busy acting in your interview.

AW: That is fantastic advice. I love that the 60 second infomercial.

NB: So you know flashing forward to that moment when you’re with the CEO in the elevator and they say, “what are you up to?” when they say it because, well, first of all, they’re nice enough to actually know you work there. And they have some ideas about who you are, if not a lot, but they actually couldn’t care less what you’re working on at the time. Really what they want to know is a little bit more about you.

AW: That’s probably true.

NB: And that’s your moment. And if you have that 60 second canned infomercial, your answer is, you know what, here’s what I love about our organization. And this is what I’m doing to help to help make it even better.

AW: Okay, another type of story that I wanted to ask you about is the story that’s being told in the media. So you can answer this however you want, whether you have general advice for how people interact with the media, or maybe it’s with your experience, with Heenan Blaikie, and you knew that the story was hitting the media and how you dealt with that. Do you have any comments about telling your story through the media?

NB: Yes. I’ve done some media training largely for crisis management, because we had a few crises along the way. And the first one in the door was the crisis management expert in terms of what do we say. It’s not just the media. It’s what do you tell the media? What do you tell the people who are working for you? What do you tell your partners? How do you manage the entire process? And we’re going to start with honesty. But the key –and this I learned through experience– is you need to understand your core message. So whatever it is, you’re not going to be able to spin the story because someone else is writing the story, the only thing you can do is stay true to your core message and make sure that gets out. So it doesn’t pretty much matter what the questions are that you’re being asked. So and unless you’re on live TV, everything you say is going to be edited and taken out of context and repurposed as a tool of whoever it is that has the angle on the story they’re going to write. So what you have to do is understand that less is more, and your job going into that interview, is to stick to your core message. This is what I want the world to know. And it doesn’t matter how many times you have to repeat it to get there. And you may frustrate the interviewer. But so what

AW: I’ve heard those interviews on the radio. They ask this question, it’s like no, I got one message for you.

NB: Yeah.

AW:  and the less is more, I guess the more you give them, the more they can take out of context.

NB: That’s right. And not only that, the more you say the more you relax and the more likely you are to say something that you swore to yourself, you wouldn’t say.

AW: is there anything else you want to share with the listeners about storytelling?

NB: The one thing that I’ve learned – and it’s interesting because I see it now in my writing. And I see the parallels that I’ve learned, because I’ve been speaking for many, many years. And that is: you need to connect with emotion. And I’ve said it before, but you need to connect with emotion and life experience. And ultimately, the experience of the listener and the experience of the reader is somewhat the same. I need you to feel in some respect that I’ve changed how you see the world.

AW: Another question that I wanted to ask you is, have you inspired anyone else to write their story who otherwise maybe wouldn’t have?

NB: Not to my knowledge, but the nice thing about speaking to a lot of people is you’re inspiring people and you don’t know what the impact is. And I love that. I love not knowing who, 20 years from now will say, I went to listen to on of Norm’s speeches 20 years ago and it changed my life. And occasionally someone will write me and tell me that, and that is better than anything anybody could ever tell me about… about anything. You tell me I had a positive impact on your life. And that’s the reason why I get up in the morning.

AW: Oh, okay. Well, let’s leave it at that. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise about telling your story.

NB: Thank you.

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The post #42 TELLING YOUR STORY with best selling author & legal veteran Norman Bacal appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Listen, as Norman Bacal, author, consultant, and 35 year legal veteran, shares his insights and stories about how active listening can help you not only learn, but also improve your relationships with co-workers, clients, family, and friends.  You will learn strategies for active listening, including the ideal mindset for listening, what to project, how narcissists are (sometimes) non-listeners, tips on small talk, as well as advice on developing relationships with clients. 

Types of listening

Narcissism & listening

Active Listening

Julian Treasure TEDTalk

Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Norman, for joining us here today to talk about listening.

Norman Bacal: Oh, thanks, Andrea.

AW: I have a question for you to start with regarding the significance of listening. How would you say listening ranks in terms of significance in effective communication versus all the other skills that we can acquire to become effective communicators?

NB: I don’t think anything else comes close to listening, because most people talk because they want to be heard. And it’s a very tough skill, because most people would prefer to be speaking than to be listening. We all want to be heard. We all want to feel we count, which is naturally at odds with listening to someone else’s point of view, and then allowing it to have an impact on your own.

AW: What other communication skills do you think might be almost as important – or next on the list?

NB: Reading visual cues is really important. So sometimes it isn’t what people say. It’s the way that they say it. The way that they’re sitting in their chair. Sometimes it’s the way that they walk into the room that tells you much more about what they have to say than what’s coming out of their mouth. I think there’s a huge issue relating to subtext. Very often the conversation we need to be having isn’t the conversation we’re having.

AW: This takes me to the definition of listening, because some people would say that perceiving or decoding the information that the encoder has provided, is actually listening – whether it’s verbal, oral communication or nonverbal communication, right?

NB: That’s right. There’s so much in a conversation that isn’t being said. So for example, the way you nod your head when I’m speaking, is giving me a signal that what I’m saying is resonating. Or if I’m speaking and you’re rolling your eyes at me, it’s telling me you probably think I’m completely bullshitting you or you’re angry at me. And it’s really important when you’re speaking to be reading the other person, because communication isn’t just about having words come out of your mouth, even though some people believe that. It’s about discovering whether the other person is actually open to hearing what you have to say. Of course, it’s much easier to say in theory than to actually live through it. And I know through countless exchanges I’ve had with people that have failed. But ultimately, there are so many, not only verbal, but non-verbal parts of the exchange that are happening. And of course, that can only happen when you’re face to face. It becomes much more difficult when you’re doing this over the phone and trying to decode. And it’s pretty much impossible when it’s by text.

AW: So assuming we’re talking about verbal communication then, what does it mean to be an effective listener?

NB: That is a loaded question.

AW: It is.

NB: I can probably explain it through an example. It’s my first year as managing partner of Heenan Blaikie. And when you’re the managing partner, people walk into your office with their problems pretty regularly. If they’re comfortable. I had one partner walk in one day. Plops himself down across from me. And I’d known him for many years. And he starts telling me this tale of another partner who’s making his life miserable. And they’re in another office. And as he’s talking, the only thing going on in my mind is: I have no idea how I’m going to help. Like, I just, I just have no idea. It’s a tough one. I’m like, maybe I’ll go speak to the other partner afterwards. But I don’t think that’s going to work. And he must have spent half an hour in my office describing the problem and his great unhappiness with how this was impacting on his life. And I was sitting there thinking the whole time, I am a failure, I cannot do this job. I cannot be the managing partner of a firm because I have no idea how to solve problems like this. I went home that night and I told my wife and I just unloaded. She didn’t have any particular advice for me on that one. But she said, Listen, it’s, you know, it’s part of the job.

AW: She said, Listen? Ha ha.

NB: No, she said, just to know I was listening… I was able to relay exactly what he said. I was listening pretty carefully, but I just couldn’t figure out how I was going to help him. When he left he left just you know, his shoulders sagged, he looked depressed, walking out the door. And I felt like my shoulders should be sagging too, as I’m walking out the door, and probably they were. He called me a week later from the other office. And he said, Norm, I just wanted to let you know how great you are at your job. I almost fell off the back of my chair, like, What are you talking about? He said, I came in to see you last week, and I needed to unload. I had this problem. And as you were listening to me, it became quite clear to me that the only person that could solve this problem was me. And I knew you couldn’t. That’s not your job. I have a problem with a partner, I need to go deal with it. And once I heard those words coming out of my mouth, it became clear to me what I had to do and I’m going to do it. I just wanted to let you know, I really appreciated the fact that you sat there and listened to me blather on for half an hour about this. And that was the day the light bulb went off. That sometimes the process of just giving someone an ear is enough. That’s all you need to be doing and it’s not a failure. In fact, it’s a sign of success.

AW: Hmm. So one of the benefits, or positive outcomes, of being a great listener is that we can help people solve their own problems. What are some of the other benefits or reasons why I might want to be a good listener?

NB: The things we have to say just aren’t that interesting. Most people are most comfortable speaking about themselves. Fortunately, and this is just my makeup. I don’t feel the great need to talk about myself. And when I do talk about myself, part of my brain is feeling uncomfortable, like I’m going on a little bit too long. I’d rather be listening than talking to start with, so it’s not like I’m this genius that has figured something out. I just naturally prefer to be listening than to be speaking. I’ve seen people at the other end of the spectrum, and you can read it in their eyes. As you’re speaking to them. They’re already formulating their next argument. And that sometimes happens to me – none of us are perfect. But if you’re busy formulating how you’re going to respond. that generally leads to interrupting syndrome – like I can’t let you finish. What I have to tell you is just so important that you just need to stop speaking now and listen to me. And you can feel it. And they don’t realize they’re not listening to you.

AW: It makes people feel bad when you interrupt them, right? Like, you must not value them.

NB: Yes. Listen, I interrupt people much more often than I wish I did. But every time you interrupt, you’re basically telling them, I don’t need to hear what you have to say. Because what I have to say is paramount. So you’re pretty much dissing them.

AW: So I’m really intrigued by what you said about the fact that you have this belief that maybe what you’re saying isn’t as interesting or important as other people and that this is an intrinsic thing that you have – a natural way of being. Is that related to being an introvert?

NB: I don’t know if it’s related to being an introvert. It might be. But the reality is, my makeup is I don’t want to bore you. And I know if I’m going on too long with a story, there’s a risk that at a point in time you’ve clicked off. It happens to me mostly when I talk about writing, because I find actually people have had no interest in what I did is a lawyer and so I rarely talk about it. Because if I tried to explain to you what I was doing on a deal, your eyes would fog over pretty quickly. So I just never bothered. But when I talk about writing, writing is something lots of people think – God I wish I could write or maybe I should do it, or how do I do it? So it’s something I like to talk about, because I think it actually ties into this secret desire, we all have, to write. But I’m very conscious when I’m speaking, that maybe the audience is sitting there saying, Okay, enough already with your writing.

AW: back to what you said about being concerned that you say might be boring people. Do you think that listening has to do with the ego? I’m wondering if people who are very egocentric, maybe it’s the interrupters, who are taking up too much of the conversation?

NB: People who are egocentric like to talk – that is my experience. They like to talk. They like to be the center of attention. They like to put on a show. I have lived for many years with a partner who is just like Donald Trump. There’s certain characteristics of people who have high degrees of narcissism. All tied to – it’s all about me. And I know you have to be at least as interested in me and my stories as I am, and therefore I’m going to tell you all of them.

AW: I am –  when we’re done this interview – going to check, I’m sure (99% sure) that someone’s done the research on listening skills and narcissism.

NB: Oh, okay.

AW: Don’t you think there’s got to be probably a correlation?

NB: One of the greatest narcissists I’ve ever met…

AW: Greatest narcissist? Haha.

NB: Yes.

AW: Most extreme narcissist?

NB: Yeah. Well, he’s got some greatness to him. And he’s also got some huge character flaws. He’s like a character out of a novel. He is also the best listener I’ve ever known.

AW: Really?

NB: Yeah. One on one. He is the best listener. I’ve learned listening skills from him. He will not ever interrupt you. He will listen. He will take notes to what you’re saying. He will wait till you’re finished and then he will start.

AW: He may be so manipulative though that he’s conscious of that?

NB: No. He’s genuine. I’ve seen him in enough situations. It is genuine. He’s genuine and a very successful business person, probably as a result.

AW: Well, let’s dig into developing listening skills. In your book. Breakdown, you say, “for four years, I observed Jean Potvin at work. He was a master. He taught me the value of listening.” Can you share with the Talk About Talk listeners, what exactly did he teach you?

NB: Apart from anything else, he took me to every meeting he went to. Normally when you’re the kid at the bottom of the totem pole, you don’t go to meetings. How does anybody expect you to learn? I just kind of scratch my head. That was something I insisted on when I became more senior. But he would get clients in a room and he’d get them talking about their stories, which did two things. One, it bonded him to the clients. And second, he found out the things he needed to know about them – to better serve them. So there wasn’t a direct line between what he was asking them and the legal work they wanted to hire him for. But it gave him information. Perhaps some context to be able to serve them better.

AW: I am so conscious of interrupting you now… So you learned from that the value of asking people to tell their stories and you also learned, I guess from him being a great role model, how you could then become a manager and help bring someone up. What else did you learn?

NB: Well, he wasn’t the only one teaching me. There were a number of mentors who went out of their way to make me a better lawyer. Three come to mind. Jean was one of them. Richard Lewin was a second, and Danny Levinson who was third. Danny and Richard worked very hard on my writing skills. Yeah, for that I’m eternally grateful. They made me become a lot more precise. For Jean, it was about his skill with people. Jean was the master in dealing with people.

AW: and a master listener?

NB: And a master listener. But he just had this elegance and grace about him. But I observed – it’s funny because you learn things not only from people who do things well, you also learn things from people who become negative role models – where it’s in a meeting with either a bad listener, constantly interrupting, or lawyers who introduce themselves to clients and spent the first five minutes talking about their qualifications. And I said, Okay, I’m never doing that, because you’d watch the clients, their eyes would glaze over. What I learned in terms of client service was it’s about paying attention to them, finding out what their needs are, finding out as much as you possibly can about their business objectives. When I advanced to become the leader of the firm, one of my roles was going out and meeting with the CEOs of the businesses we represented. And I would never have them come to my office. We had one huge worldwide drug manufacturer. I went to visit them and took the tour as to how they manufactured one of their drugs. I was the first lawyer they’d ever dealt with that took the plant tour. And if you don’t think I didn’t own them after that meeting! Not only that, in the course of our discussions, I found out three or four things about the company that none of our lawyers knew, none of any of their lawyers knew, because they use multiple law firms. So we had a huge jump. I’d come back to the office and say, Okay, here are three issues we didn’t know about. Let’s get to work, and we’re respond to them immediately before… the client still hasn’t identified them as problems, but they’re going to be problems.

AW: Wow, very proactive – directly based on your listening.

NB: It wasn’t just listening. I mean, listening is part of it. It’s part of what I’d say – the larger category is… caring. Particularly if you’re in the service business, it’s more than empathy. It’s showing that you actually care about them and their businesses and their problems. I used to go visit CEOs and my first question would be okay, what’s keeping you up at night? It’s not about are we doing great service and please give me compliments or criticisms to take back. It’s what are you not able to identify to anybody else? Or maybe even to yourself that’s bothering you?

AW: In a similar vein, you said, “There are no secrets in a small office. One simple technique worked well. I listened.” And you were talking about when you were a managing director, and I think you were going out to the Calgary office, and you said that the only thing really on your agenda, there were some people that you need to touch base with formally, but your main objective was to walk around, meet people, talk and listen.

NB: Yes, I kind of happened into it. It’s not like I went out there with a strategy. But ultimately, after few years, it became a strategy. I realized it.

AW: brilliant.

NB: But simple. There’s no magic to this. It’s just you walk around you talk to people, they’re going to talk to you.

AW: Yeah, it’s simple. But … You said that it wasn’t a strategy that you had on your to do list. But it feels like it’s not being productive. It’s a quote-unquote, soft skill. But it’s critical, right?

NB: I always felt that even in the big offices, that walking the halls was critical.

AW: What I’m hearing, though (and this may be readily apparent to other people, but I hadn’t really thought about this before explicitly), is that when you are proactively explicitly listening, there’s the content of the message that you’re hearing. But then there’s also other side effects that are happening that are that are more important. More important than the content of the message, and it’s the fact that someone feels like they’re being heard?

NB: yes.

AW: So I’m hearing that we can establish ourselves and the benefits of being a great listener by walking around and asking people to share their stories, to share their thoughts, to tell us what keeps them up at night. Also, by not interrupting. And as you said before, by not assuming what I have to say is the most important thing. Rather preferring to listen to what the other person has to say because it might be more interesting. Are there any other do’s and don’ts that you can share with people about listening skills and things to work on that might make us better listeners?

NB: Something I can sometimes be quite weak at is paying attention. You know, we talked about listening but it’s not always easy to stay engaged. And I’m sometimes the worst culprit. I find that my attention sometimes wanes. And the other thing and you just pointed out to me is – put your device away. There’s nothing that hurts more, whether they admit it or not, in the middle of a conversation, than to respond to a text or ring. Because when you think about it, if it was anything else, you wouldn’t take it.

AW: right. It is offensive. I’ve been in meetings where people have pulled out phones. And I think, to the credit of the person that’s running the meeting, they actually stopped the meeting. And I’ve also been in personal conversations where someone has picked up their phone and I’ve said, do you need a minute?

NB: There you go. I mean, that’s, that’s when people do it. And the problem is, it’s become socially acceptable. I’m guilty of it sometimes, too. I have a rule whenever I’m out with anyone, if my wife calls I say, I’m, I am going to interrupt that because she and I have a rule. She’s not going to call me…

AW: You let them know in advance?

NB:  I’ll warn them in advance and say, listen, the only call I will take is from my wife. They can accept it or not. In the end, she’s the one I’m going home to!

AW: Some of my friends that have that rule about their kids. And we will be in a restaurant and they’ll say the only person I’ll pick-up for is my kids and then the kids keep calling and calling and calling and I’m like, you need to tell your kid that unless it’s an emergency. they’re not valuing your time.

NB: So the devices are the biggest problem, biggest communication problem today.

AW: I agree. I agree and it is becoming so socially acceptable. But the truth is we can’t track two conversations, right? I mean, I don’t know anyone that can read a conversation on their phone and be engaged in a verbal dialogue effectively.

NB: Something I learned from a speech coach: studies have shown that you cannot listen and read at the same time – and you can’t possibly absorb. So if I put a slide up on the screen while I’m talking, you’re either listening to me, or you’re reading the screen, but you’re not doing both. More likely than not, you’re not doing either. So if you’re going to put a slide up, wait till you finish speaking, tell people what they should be looking at on the screen and then shut up and let them read it.

AW: That is such great advice. And I’m thinking also sometimes there’s just an image instead of words so that you can look at an image that may be reinforcing the words that you’re hearing, but

NB: exactly

AW:  it’s like, we’ve taken this now to the context of listening as someone who’s in an audience, right? But it’s actually the same thing. You can’t listen if you’re distracted.

NB: That’s right.

AW: Let’s shift gears then to listening and small talk. I wanted to ask you this because you said in the book a few times that you struggle with small talk, which really surprised me, because you’re not socially awkward. I can tell the listeners that. And you are a fantastic listener. In fact, that’s how I met you. I told someone who we know in common that I wanted to interview someone who’s a great listener and your name came to her mind immediately. How is it that we can reconcile that you’re not great at small talk, and yet you are a great listener?

NB: Some tricks that I learned. The most important, and I teach this one, particularly to students and young lawyers: you will inevitably be in a cocktail party situation, could be the person sitting next to you at the table and you’re stuck with them for dinner, or you walk up to someone at a party and that person is a stranger. The whole idea of walking up to them is something you don’t want because how are you going to start what you’re going to say? My wife taught me two things. First, is pretend you’re conducting an interview. That you’re the Interviewer we’re most worried about exposing ourselves, telling our story, not boring the other person. But if we walk up to the other person, and we start asking them questions about themselves, they’re talking about their favorite subject and makes them feel immediately at ease. She said, If you do that, they’ll walk away saying you’re the most interesting person in the world, and they will have learned nothing about you. And it is inevitably true. People, when you get them talking about themselves, they start feeling a comfort level with you. And you don’t necessarily – you can choose to give up something about your life, but you don’t have to. In the end, they will think you’re very interesting.

AW: So when I was an undergrad student, and I was on the job market, I went to a seminar and the person said something very similar. They said, the ratio of the conversation where you’re talking versus where the other person’s talking can often dictate how they’ll feel about you. So make it your objective to get the interviewer to talk more and for you to talk less because they’ll like you more. And I kind of made it a game in my mind. I found it kind of fun, too, I think as a 21-22 year old naive undergraduate student, I’m thinking I need to tell them how great I am. I need to fill all the silence with my accomplishments, right? And actually, I should have been listening to what they had to say about the company and …

NB: My wife was the master of the interview, she went for 10 interviews got 10 job offers, because she was able to do this. It took me a lot longer to figure it out. And I said, there were two. The second in terms of getting through those moments is to imagine that you’re having a dinner party at your house and a stranger walks in the door. And what’s the first thing you do? Well as the host, you welcome them,

AW: you engage them in conversation.

NB: Engage them in conversation, you don’t think twice about it. So imagine you’re in this room where you need to meet people. You got to get through the evening. And the simple skill I learned was: just pretend this is your party, not someone else’s, and walk up to some people who look particularly alienated and just pretend you’re the host. So same thing you end up asking them about themselves. You start a conversation with anybody. Three minutes. I mean, the other thing I tell people is generally easier to hunt in pairs, not on your own. So you go to one of these things with a friend, you can’t brag about yourself, but your friend can and vice versa. If somebody puts their arm around you and said, Did you know that Norm did this? It’s a conversation opener.

AW: I may have been involved in some of those scenarios at various cocktail parties. Yeah, I remember that. It’s like, I don’t really want this job. But I know you do. I’m your wing man. I’ll talk about how great you are!

NB: Exactly.

AW: I love it. Is there anything else that you can advise people about small talk?

NB: Again, better to approach it by asking questions. And as soon as I understood that, it got me over the hump and then ultimately they’ll start asking you questions and then you’re fine.

AW: So your asking questions comment actually is bringing me full circle, because when I asked you the question about what other communication skills may be almost as important as listening, in my mind, I was thinking actually asking questions could be that skill. But perhaps asking questions is listening?

NB:  Yes.

AW: So it’s saying that the second most important communication skill is part of listening?

NB: It’s a strategy.

AW:  Okay. Fair enough. Is there anything else you want to add about listening and how we can become more effective listeners?

NB: Why don’t you talk to me about what you think about listening?

AW: Haha. Humour.

NB: There you go.

AW: Okay, so now we’re going to move on to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest.

NB: Okay, sure.

AW: The first question is, what are your pet peeves?

NB: For me? The biggest one is waiting in lines. I think I’m a patient person. I describe myself as a patient person. But put me in a line or in traffic and I become a very impatient person.

AW: Why do you think that is? Is it because you’re wasting time?

NB: I can’t explain it. It’s because I think at heart I’m a very impatient person. I’m trying to be patient.

AW: okay. Second question. What type of learner are you? Visual? Auditory? Kinesthetic? or some other kind of learner?

NB: To really learn, I need to go through the experience myself. And I learned this particularly in karate, I had to actually do it. And I had to do it wrong 10 times and had to have somebody watch me and say no, move your fingers four degrees, and you then you when you feel it, when you’re throwing somebody by just grabbing their fingers and flipping them backwards–my thumb and my two fingers can take hold up your wrist, and I can flip it over on your back– if I get it exactly the right way. But until you’ve experimented with it, there’s no way ,there’s no way to figure that out.

AW: So you’re a kinesthetic learner? Does that mean that you can’t learn vicariously when it comes to, I don’t know…

NB: I can’t learn how to write by reading.

AW: There you go.

NB: I have to learn to write by writing – and then the light bulb goes off. Or I have this moment and writing is the most unbelievable experience when it happens to you. I’ll be writing and suddenly the characters have taken over the scene. And I’m just a scribe. I’m just writing down what they’re saying and what they’re thinking and what they’re feeling. Because it isn’t me anymore. They’re in some part of my brain.

AW: That’s how I feel when I’m painting and I get into flow.

NB: There you go.

AW: Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert?

NB: Unquestionably introvert. I prefer to listen than to talk. I’m not sure if it’s a skill or a deficiency. I have learned many coping skills. I’m generally a shy person. I’ve learned how to cope. I’ve learned how to speak. And I’ve read Susan Cain’s book on this too.

AW: Quiet?

NB:  Quiet, which made me feel much better. You can learn the skills to cope, but at heart I would just assume be sitting quietly, reading a book, then engaged in a long conversation with someone.

AW: Question number four: communication preference for personal conversations?

NB: When I’m in a rush, I text. I try and avoid social media to communicate with people. I only do that when I have no other way of getting in touch with them. My strong preference is face to face because you can read the eyes and I think frankly, texting is terrible. So unless I’m texting you – I’ll meet you here at this hour. Generally I’m headed for disaster.

AW: Okay. What about phone?

NB: Phone is fine, but nothing, nothing beats face to face, right? Nothing. Particularly if I want something. If I want something, if I want to achieve something, I will never do it by email. I will never do it by text. I will occasionally do it by phone, but it won’t nearly be as successful as sitting down face to face. And because then you can feel me.

AW: And the last Rapid Fire question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you recommend the most?

NB: No.   I’m not, I’m not doing  podcasts yet. No.

AW: but what about email newsletters?

NB: I hate them.

AW: Oh, really?

NB: Yeah.

AW: So where do you find out about great books to read?

NB:  A fair amount of word of mouth. Sometimes I’ll just go I’ll go TPL and hit their choices. Like I’m not moved by ads and stuff like that.

AW: Thank you very much for your time and your expertise Norman.

NB: Alright, thanks.

THANKS for listening – and READING!

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The post #41 LISTENING with author, consultant, & legal veteran Norman Bacal appeared first on Talk About Talk.