The Learning & Development Podcast: The #1 L&D Show

In the final episode of this series, we welcome back Mirjam Neelen, Carl Binder, Teemu Lilja, Fredrik Peterson Herfindal, and Judith Hale to answer your questions.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Being agile means we have to provide personal/career development and performance improvement. The two are closely connected, doing well in your job leads to career development.
• The opportunity for people to learn is all around them, we need to tap into the fact their peers and supervisors have a lot of knowledge to impart and provide content that helps them to learn on the job.
• The list of skills people need includes things like capabilities, talent, and mindset.
• Identify the experiences people need to be exposed to so that they can develop the right skills. Then make sure they get to do that type of work.
• There is still a tendency for stakeholders to expect L&D to do what they are told. To get results, this has to change. The panel discusses ways to drive that change.
• We all need to look at performance as the output and make that our starting point.
• Identifying critical business issues and addressing them is essential.

BEST MOMENTS

'The issue is really about; I call it bench strength; how agile we are. '

'We need to address skills in context'

'When we offer suites of generic content, we leave people hanging. They can master that content, but they may not know how to apply it in their jobs

'Talk to the people who will talk to you. Start there.'

GUEST RESOURCES

HR Goes Agile – Harvard Business Review article - https://hbr.org/2018/03/hr-goes-agile

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

In this episode, Judith Hale, Performance Improvement expert, and thought leader will be sharing her experience and approach to working with stakeholders and clients to make a real impact on performance and results.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Building a strong relationship with stakeholders is essential. How to do that is covered in-depth during the episode.
• Why work to solve a symptom when you can solve the underlying problem?
• Your analysis needs to start at the first point of contact, not once the contract is signed. They don’t self-censure as much at that stage.
• Help your clients to improve the physical environment in which people are working e.g. improve ventilation or stop subtle bullying behaviour.
• People are terrible writers, but great editors. Giving them something to work with in writing is a fast way to get things started.
• Don´t be afraid to ask tough questions.
• The phrase “Oh by the way other companies have found that XYZ helps with …”, is a great way to plant seeds.
• Sometimes the only way to influence an intransient executive is through their peers.

BEST MOMENTS

'I pay a lot of attention to the physical environment. '

'Play the long game, work on the relationship and incrementally build currency with your stakeholders. '

'We think that people have the information that they need, but they don´t. '

'When your client gets what they need, rather than what they asked for, then we're all better and richer all around for it. '

GUEST RESOURCES

You can follow and connect with Judith via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/judith-hale-halecenter/

Website: https://tifpiedu.org

The Performance Consultant´s Fieldbook by Judith Hale - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Performance-Consultants-Fieldbook-Techniques-Organizations-ebook/dp/B008O5JZPY/

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

In this episode, Teemu Lilja and Fredrik Peterson Herfindal speak about their pivot to a performance-oriented approach at their organisation, the Swedish company Telia, and how this has led to both incredible business impact and recognition by their colleagues and the industry.

Theirs is an inspiring story that started by listening to podcast conversations just like this...

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• You have to measure the impact training is having on the company to demonstrate that it has positive business outcomes. If it is not producing that, there is little point in doing it. Taking this approach also secures the future of your department.
• Steer things in the right direction from the first planning conversation you have. Using The Programme Performance Path from Brinkerhoff is a good way to ensure you do this. In the episode, Teemu explains how he does this.
• When designing training it is essential that you use the people who actually do the job to show and explain the workflows to you. As well as share what they need to get from the training. Tap into their expertise to tweak things, but don´t forget to speak to low performers too so you can include what not to do in your training.
• Create a user story and make sure everyone can respond appropriately regardless of what the customer does. In the episode, Teemu shares, in detail, how they did this to double the sales of their streaming services. An example anyone, regardless of industry, can use to create laser-focused and effective training.

BEST MOMENTS

'I was oriented to performance from day one. '

'Evaluate the outputs you produce, the business outcomes.'

'By involving people in our analysis, we create ambassadors and champions for further initiatives. '

'Knowing your competitors is a big success factor. '

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

In this episode, Carl Binder talks about Pivot to Performance, and his methodology, and brings this to life with real-life examples. Carl is CEO of The Performance Thinking Network, helping organisations accelerate results through the performance of their people. 

A widely published author, keynote speaker, and consultant, Carl began as a Ph.D. student with B.F. Skinner at Harvard, and has spent over 40 years bringing behaviour science into practical, down-to-earth application.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• You can deliver fantastic training, but if the business does not make changes to provide the right conditions to enable people to apply what they have learned, better results will not be generated.
• What you want is ongoing accomplishment-based talent development. 
• Using plain English is essential for making your training accessible to all and getting stakeholder buy-in.
• Design is all about the stuff that supports behaviour. In particular, the conditions people work in.
• To get engagement, you need to evangelise about the process and benefits. Without it, people will not understand and will not buy in.
• You need to give people the time and space to become fluent in using tools.
• Delivering training at the right pace and in bursts that prevent fatigue is essential.

BEST MOMENTS

'You need to define performance first. '

'An accomplishment has to be an accountable thing.'

'Generic training, and development, I think is just enormously wasteful.. '

'People who are just going to do the same old thing, the same way they always do as a checkbox, probably are not going to be my clients.. '

GUEST RESOURCES

You can follow and contact Carl via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcarlbinder/

Website: https://www.performancethinking.com

ABOUT THE GUEST

Carl Binder Carl is the CEO of The Performance Thinking Network. He was one of the last graduate students of BF Skinner at Harvard University. 

He has published dozens of articles, chapters, and books and presented dozens and dozens of times, and workshops and presentations at conferences. Carl is the recipient of two of ISPs highest awards, the Thomas F Gilbert Award, and the honorary life member award. He's also received the Fred s Keller Award from the American Psychological Association for his work in education. And he's received a lifetime achievement award from the organisational behaviour management network, a sub-discipline of ABA, the Association of Behaviour Analysts.

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

Welcome to series 2 of L&D’s Pivot to Performance and the first of 5 conversations. 

As with series 1, Guy Wallace and David James are speaking with esteemed guests about their own pivot from ‘Learning-focused’ practice towards a ‘performance orientation’ that more predictably and reliably, let alone efficiently and successfully, achieves demonstrable results for both employees and organisations.

In this episode, Mirjam Neelen talks about her pivot to performance, her approach to analysis, design, and stakeholder management. 

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Get stakeholders involved from day 1.
• Asking gently probing questions is a diplomatic way to get stakeholders to properly identify the business problem and sign off on training that works instead of simply ticking a box.
• Periodically ask – “what´s the deliverable?” as a way of ensuring that the focus remains in the right place i.e., solving the problem. It is easy to get side-tracked.
• Asking questions that prompt the stakeholders to think more deeply about the work and how it is carried out helps them to realise what is needed.
• It can be difficult to get objective data from stakeholders, but you must persist in asking for it.
• Using task analysis reminds or informs the stakeholder about how the work gets done so they can 100% understand what type of training is needed.
• Asking stakeholders to create examples for the training really focuses them on what needs to be taught and how.

BEST MOMENTS

'I pick with my team, one or two projects each quarter so that we're actually solving real business problems. Then, from that, we extract things like case studies, but also frameworks, models, and more. '

'You have, which I don't think could be understated, diplomacy.'

' I really try to focus on what they are trying to always achieve and keep that front and centre. '

'In the end, it just really helped to move from what I call a training focus to a capability building focus. '

ABOUT MIRJAM NEELAN

Mirjam Neelen is the Head of Global Learning Design and Learning Sciences in Novartis. She is part of a team that redefines how Novartis Associates build competence. With 15 years of industry experience, she has worked in a wide variety of learning design roles in organisations such as Accenture, Google, and Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

With global economic uncertainty and hardship, organisations are likely to be making tough decisions in 2023, and if Learning & Development departments are going to survive and succeed, they are likely to be challenged to achieve more with fewer resources. In this episode, David explores his experience of leading L&D at Disney during the post-2008 banking crisis and shares lessons on how he rose to the challenge of achieving more with less.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Whenever there is a recession, it is normally the L&D and marketing departments that are cut.
• Becoming more visible is an important part of ensuring the organisation appreciates the value of L&D.
• The fact that employment rates in the UK are high means that developing people is going to be important for businesses. L&D is not a perk, it is essential.
• L&D must stop leaning on generic online content that is not effective. If they don´t they will fail, and the department will be slimmed down.
• Focus on addressing issues that impact the organisation’s profitability and solve real problems.
• Technology is expensive, it must be a solution that is designed to solve the actual business problems your organisation has.

BEST MOMENTS

'My stock internally rose because I grasped the nettle, and I knew what needed to be done.'

' Help stakeholders to address critical points of failure in their operation, what's not working, what's costing them opportunity? what's costing them good people?'

'Any good digital product needs to work with a notepad and a pen first, if you can't make it work with a notepad and a pen, it's not gonna work with a website. '

'If you're laser-focused on solving real problems, then your solutions are smaller, thinner, lighter, and more agile,

ABOUT ADAM HARWOOD

Adam Harwood Bio

Adam is Associate Director of Talent & Culture at Genomics having previously led L&D at luxury hospitality brand D&D and challenger bank Revolut. Adam has also worked in the L&D departments at ASOS and Ted Baker.

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

The market for off-the-shelf content and programmes for the L&D profession is huge. This is despite it equating to next to no demonstrable return on investment. It’s seductive to think we can plug in a ready-made ‘solution’ but what does it really solve? And is our dependency on it going to be our downfall?

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The purpose of L&D has to be to make it easier for people to do their jobs. Anything that does not contribute to this is usually just a tick-box exercise.
• What is provided needs to create meaningful behaviour change. In most cases, a standardised training course doesn’t do that.
• If people are sent on mind-numbing courses, they tend to assume it is all going to be rubbish and just switch off to all of it.
• The examples used must be relevant to what each department does. A one size fits all approach does not work.
• Only 29% of people think that the online learning they have completed has been effective.
• Off-the-shelf training can be useful, but only in limited circumstances, Stewart provides some examples in the podcast.
• Asking people what is stopping them from doing their job is an effective way to identify training needs.

BEST MOMENTS

'Until we understand the reason for poor performance, you can't really move the needle on it. '

' I do think there is a reluctance to dig deep, we kind of fear what we might find sometimes, I think all organisations are guilty of that.'

'Unless there's a way to relate the material to someone's world, there's always going to be a mess, '

'There is such an over-reliance on solutions that don't understand the problem. '

ABOUT STEWART EVERSON

Stewart Everson Bio

As manager of the National Bank Independent Network learning team, Stewart is responsible for driving the digital adoption of the company’s technology and ensuring employees have access to skills training and development opportunities, to grow their careers.

EPISODE RESOURCES

Nigel Paine’s work and resources - https://www.nigelpaine.com/

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

John Helmer is the host of two outstanding Learning & Development podcasts: The Learning Hack and Great Minds On Learning. In this episode, John condenses his insights and learning from the conversations he’s led with Donald Clark about the people and approaches that have informed so much of the L&D profession.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Experts tend to forget the gaps they had in their knowledge when they knew less, so tend to skip over things. It’s a form of educated incapacity.
• A surprising amount of learning is unlearning some of the things that are almost instinctive to us.
• Learning and development professionals don't know or aren't aware of as much of learning theory and science as perhaps you'd expect.
• Our job as learning professionals, as special as any field, is to disentangle what is valuable about the new and not be scared of innovations.
• There is a tendency for the industry to repackage old approaches. That is only OK if it has been updated and tweaked to work in a modern setting.

BEST MOMENTS
' The expert has difficulty unpacking. So, my job is to help Donald unpack. '
'How do you know that it works, and if you don't know that it works, does it work, and then do less of the stuff that you don't know works,'
' There's a whole lot of counterintuitive stuff involved in learning, which is sort of something we talk about in the learning theory, that has to be to get around to make learning work. '
'You should be ambitious for your profession. '

ABOUT JOHN HELMER
John Helmer is a writer, editor, and communications strategy expert specialising in the fields of learning, training, education, and publishing, with a particular focus on digital technology innovation. He has led many programmes bringing together thought leaders and practitioners for knowledge sharing and debate, and writes for and edits numerous blogs, as well as producing many white papers and research reports (including articles for peer-reviewed journals).

GUEST RESOURCES
You can follow and connect with John via:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhelmer/
Great Minds On Learning: https://greatmindsonlearning.libsyn.com
The Learning Hack: https://learninghack.libsyn.com

VALUABLE RESOURCES
The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523
L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James
David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.
As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

Has the role and remit of Instructional Designers changed in the era of Google and YouTube? What needs to happen to counter the vast suite of bad ‘click next’ e-learning? Dr Robin Sargent explores the approaches and skills required for the Instructional Design profession to evolve and meet the demands of the modern hybrid workforce.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• An instructional designer is somebody who can analyse a performance gap in any organisation and select a solution that solves it,
• Instructional design is definitely not all about E-learning. It is just one tool. One which is not right for all situations.
• Instructional designers who have a full understanding of what L&D does will always produce better results.
• Real-world examples and demonstrations make an enormous difference to how effective the learning is.
• The best learning materials show you how to do things rather than attempt to tell you how to do them.
• The future of learning is hybrid.

BEST MOMENTS
'I think it's a better mix, probably now, I think more people have had to climb a bigger wall to get into our industry than it used to be. '
'It needs to be problem centred. People need to work in real-world contexts.'
'First step, build the final demonstration, the final whole problem, of what it is that you want your learners to be able to do. '
'Structure a course, to give people the opportunity to practise, apply, and integrate into their real-world based on the actual context of what they're learning, '

Robin Sargent Ph.D. Bio
After stints as a training director for a billion-dollar company and an assistant dean of students for a large university, Dr. Robin Sargent opened IDOL courses to be the leading trade school teaching instructional design and online learning to people of all backgrounds.

GUEST RESOURCES
You can follow and contact Robin via:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robinsargent/
Website: https://www.idolcourses.com
Academy: https://www.idolcourses.com/academy
Book: https://www.idolcourses.com/book
Short Sims - https://www.shortsims.com/

VALUABLE RESOURCES
The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523
L&D Masterclass Series: https://360learning.com/blog/

ABOUT THE HOST
David James
David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.
As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

By pivoting their approach from a learning orientation to a performance orientation, Fredrik and Teemu have built a reputation for achieving real results. This has led to them being recognised within their organisation, including them being asked to take over the entire Learning & Development function at Telia and Teemu being awarded Telia Reinventor of the Year. As well as this, they were awarded Learning Team of the Year. In this episode, we explore their pivot and the impact this has had.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Combining the skills of trainers, coaches and eLearning producers has led to a successful team.
• If L&D does not have a positive impact on the company´s bottom line, they are not being effective.
• You need to understand your learner´s workflows.
• The processes you use need to be agile, so you can create learning tools that adapt as the company does.
• They have someone anyone can contact when they are trying to work out how to do something or solve a problem.
• Another member of the team is responsible for pulling together the stats for new projects and those needed to monitor results.
• Methodologies solve problems, not platforms. 
• Invest in upskilling your team.
• If you meet resistance to change within the organisation. Say yes to their requests but insist on analysis. They soon understand whether what they are asking for has true value.

BEST MOMENTS

'There is no silver bullet in learning and development.'

'We are not generalists who do everything. We are good at what we do separately, and we collaborate. '

'Stop talking about learning and start talking about performance.'

'I think that the point of no return for our team members came when they got to see the impact that their new initiatives gave had on KPIs that they had set out to improve. '

ABOUT FREDRIK PETERSON HERFINDAL

Fredrik is Head of Learning & Performance at Telecoms company Telia.

ABOUT TEEMU LILJA

Teemu is Learning & Performance Lead for Sales at Telia.

GUEST RESOURCES

Fredik Peterson Herfindal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fredrik-peterson-herfindal-825958a4/

Teemu Lilja LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teemu-lilja-79a11bba/

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 

L&D Masterclass Series: https://360learning.com/blog/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James 

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa. 

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D. 

CONTACT METHOD 

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/