One of our clients noticed that her smoke alarm was wired rather than running on a battery, and could not get anyone to tell her whether that was normal. That question is what put Greg Glassock on the show.

Our guest this episode is Greg Glassock, CEO of Olympic Tactical, a private investigation and cyber security firm operating in Washington and Oregon. He spent years in law enforcement before going private, and he went through his own high-conflict divorce, in which his child was used as a pawn. He is direct that the experience changed how he handles these cases and gave him an understanding of them he did not have before. He was referred to BTGO by James Peet, the certified fraud investigator who has been on the show.

Greg starts with the phone, which he calls the device to secure before any other, and with the iCloud password, which he treats as the critical one: if it is compromised, a new handset does not save you. He walks through the passphrase method for a master password, a full sentence with its own spacing and punctuation, held behind a password manager. He explains why his firm's cyber director throws compromised hardware away and why a hard reset gets most but not all of the way there. Then the household weak points: the internet of things, and specifically the old gaming console a teenager connected to the network years ago and never updated. His firm does offensive security work, paid to break into client systems, and the consistent finding is that the human is the easiest route in, whether through a phishing campaign or a thumb drive left in a parking lot.

The second half is about tracking and proof. Apple tags and the sticker version, which use nearby iPhones to report a location without needing any service of their own, and the proximity alert Apple now sends, which is exactly the notification a teenager will swipe away. Larger GPS units with weeks of battery, magnetically attached under a car or wired into its computer. What it takes to connect one to a person, which means a serial number, a subpoena, and a digital forensics expert, and how much lower the bar is in family court, where establishing a pattern of behavior can be enough. Why in his state placing a tracker depends on whose name is on the registration. Why a protective order settles a reasonable person and escalates someone who is not, and how word gets back in a small town. What a genuine professional sweep involves, and the DIY version anyone can run: unscrew the switch plates, look up what spy cameras actually look like, then turn off every connected device in the house and walk around watching for a signal that should not be there. It closes on recording laws by state, encrypted email, faraday bags, and the question he puts to every client, which is whether this is possible or probable.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why replacing the handset does nothing if the account password is already compromised
• The passphrase method: a full sentence as a master password, behind a password manager
• The old gaming console still connected to your home network, and why it is a way in
• Why penetration testers say the easiest thing to breach is a person
• How Apple tags and sticker trackers use nearby phones, and what the proximity alert does
• What it takes to prove who put a GPS unit on your car, and why the registration matters
• Why a protective order settles one kind of person and escalates another
• The DIY sweep: switch plates, spy camera images, and walking the house watching for a signal

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 From law enforcement to PI work, and his own high-conflict divorce
3:00 The phone as the exposed device, and the account password behind it
5:00 Passphrases, password managers, and what a hard reset cannot fix
9:00 The internet of things, and the gaming console nobody turned off
12:30 Apple tags, sticker trackers, and how they find you
16:30 GPS on a car: legality, registration, and proving who put it there
20:30 Protective orders that escalate, and small-town leaks
29:30 What a professional bug sweep actually involves
31:30 The DIY search: switch plates, Wi-Fi, and the hot-cold game
35:30 Recording laws, encrypted email, faraday bags, and possible versus probable

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Greg Glassock at Olympic Tactical: https://olytac.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Ontario appoints and pays for a child to have their own lawyer in a custody case, through an office set up for exactly that. Lisa points out that the closest American equivalent normally runs families somewhere between ten and twenty-three thousand dollars, and often changes very little. That gap is where this conversation starts.

This episode has two guests. David Morneau is an Ontario lawyer who spent fifteen years on the province's panel of children's lawyers, representing children directly in child protection and custody proceedings, and describes it as work he found genuinely gratifying. Sean Valentine practices with him and works with self-represented parents, and has appeared on the show before. Both have taken training on coercive control and intimate partner violence, and both are candid about what they used to miss in clients who presented as composed, or as difficult.

David explains what the job involved: interviewing both parents, reviewing the records, and then getting on the floor with a child who had no interest in talking to a lawyer. He assessed three things in what they told him, the strength of it, its independence, and its consistency across meetings, which is why one interview was never enough. He describes children as young as three and four articulating exactly what they wanted, and a teenager whose account reversed so sharply between sessions that he went back to court and asked to be taken off the file.

Sean and David then turn to reform. Changes to Canadian legislation that finally defined family violence, the push behind Keira's Law to require judicial education, and why they think pressure from informed self-represented parents may move things faster than pressure from inside the profession. They walk through J.N. v. C.G., 2022 ONSC 1198, where a self-represented mother prevailed because she brought evidence while the represented father brought attacks on her character, and Justice Pazaratz said so in the ruling. They close on preconceived bias, opposing counsel who bully, and where to find the research on family violence and alienation.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What the UN Convention requires a court to do with a child's views and preferences
• The two routes a child's position can reach a judge, and what each one delivers
• Why the same appointment is publicly funded in Ontario and expensive in the US
• Strength, independence, consistency: how a professional weighs what a child says
• Why one interview is never enough, and how rapport gets built with a young child
• What a judge can find when a child's account reverses between meetings
• Why a self-represented parent who brings evidence can out-argue a represented one
• The preconceived bias self-represented parents walk into, and how to work around it

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Representing children in court for fifteen years
5:00 Why one schedule rarely fits every child in a family
8:00 How a child's voice reaches an Ontario courtroom, and what it costs in the US
14:00 Families in transition, and keeping kids out of the conflict
20:00 Canada's family violence definition, and Keira's Law
26:00 Changing the system from inside, or building something beside it
32:00 The vaccination case a self-represented mother won on evidence
44:00 Strength, independence, consistency: assessing a young child
47:00 The teenager whose story changed, and why David withdrew
51:00 Preconceived bias, bully lawyers, and the drama triangle
59:00 Alienation, family violence, and where to find the research

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 David Morneau on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dmorneaulaw
🔗 Sean Valentine at OV Family Law: https://ovfamilylaw.com/

🎧 More with David Morneau & Sean Valentine on this podcast
Ep 5: What to Ask Before Hiring an Attorney
Ep 6: The Client as Consumer, Part 2
Ep 8: Should You Post About Your Case on Social Media?
Ep 10: Taking Your Power Back in Family Court
Ep 86: Unbundled Legal Help Without a Full Retainer
Ep 131: How to Advocate for Yourself With Your Own Lawyer
Ep 219: Fear, Emotion, and the Family Law System

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Lisa asked her audience one question the morning of this interview: if you could write a law, what would it be? The answers that came back are the spine of this episode, and almost none of them were about winning a case. They were about a system where lying carries no cost and orders carry no teeth.

Our guest this episode is Trevor Crow, a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice in Connecticut, with a background that includes Wellesley, a Harvard MBA and a master's in marriage and family therapy from Fairfield University. Crow works with couples and individuals, has trained extensively in emotionally focused therapy, and is familiar with coercive control and domestic violence from the clinical side. At the time of recording, Crow was campaigning for a Connecticut state senate seat and came on to hear directly from people who have lived through family court, which was not yet part of the platform.

Trevor and Lisa work through the reform list. Perjury on the monthly financial affidavits that everyone signs and nobody enforces, and why a stated consequence that never arrives encourages the behavior it is meant to deter. Orders with real deadlines and real consequences instead of language a difficult ex can outlast. Bringing in someone trained in domestic violence when a report is filed, rather than relying on a judge with no coercive control training. Funding that training across the entire system: judges, attorneys, therapists and guardians ad litem. Trevor also raises adding firearms questions to mandated reporting, having asked that question of a client weeks earlier.

They discuss Jennifers' Law in Connecticut, which had only taken effect the previous October and was too new for anyone to say whether it was landing, and what advocacy in the other states looks like from the ground up. The episode also covers reproductive rights legislation that was awaiting decision at the time, and the data privacy risk in period-tracking apps, which was new to Lisa and is worth hearing if you are thinking about what any app knows about you during a contested case.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why perjury on financial affidavits goes unpunished, and what that teaches the other side
• Why an order without enforcement language is one a difficult ex can simply outlast
• What changes when someone trained in domestic violence is brought in on a report
• Why coercive control training has to reach attorneys and guardians ad litem, not just judges
• Where Jennifers' Law stood in Connecticut, and why it was too early to judge
• How advocacy in a state without coercive control legislation actually starts
• What your period-tracking app knows, and why that data may not stay private

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Trevor's background, and why family court reform came up
4:00 What the system does to families, and who it is failing
5:30 Reproductive rights legislation and the decisions then pending
12:00 Period-tracking apps and where that data can go
15:00 The wish list: domestic violence expertise on every report
17:00 Coercive control training the whole system can actually take
19:00 Perjury, unenforced orders, and consequences that never arrive
20:30 Jennifers' Law, and advocacy in the other states

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Trevor Crow, LMFT: https://trevorcrow.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

By lunchtime on the day of your trial, you may still be on your first witness. That is the reality Rebecca Zung wants people to understand before they pin their hopes on a courtroom: the day gets carved up, the judge steps out for other matters, and the witnesses you were counting on to tell your story often never take the stand.

Rebecca Zung is an attorney who spent roughly twenty years in high-net-worth family law before building a body of work on negotiating against high-conflict people. She is a speaker and author, and she frames the whole problem as one of strategy and leverage rather than of who comes across as more sympathetic.

In this episode, Zung and Lisa work through why the judge will not be your savior, and why you have to translate your situation into the five things courts actually decide: property, spousal support, custody, child support, and attorney fees. She explains why trial is a last resort, given the cost, the risk of appeal, and the years a stay can add, and why a single full day almost never lets you present the case you imagined. She makes the case for vetting a lawyer on whether they will listen, so you do not rebuild the same controlling relationship you are trying to escape.

She closes on the heart of her negotiation approach: mindset first, because you have to believe your position before anyone else will, and leverage that targets what a high-conflict opponent values most, which is usually how they look, rather than simply giving up more at the table.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why the judge won't be your savior, and why you must translate facts into legal categories
• The reality of a trial day: a full day scheduled, and your key witnesses may never testify
• Why trial is a last resort: the cost, the appeal risk, and the years a stay can add
• Reframe everything into the five things judges rule on: property, support, custody, child support, fees
• Why the words "narcissist" and "abuse" fall flat in court, and what to show instead
• Vetting a lawyer on whether they'll listen, so you don't rebuild the same controlling dynamic
• Taking strategic oversight of your own case instead of handing over all authority
• Where negotiation leverage really comes from: what your opponent values most, not more money

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Intro, and how a teacher became a negotiation lawyer
9:00 Classroom management as negotiation training
11:00 The myth that the judge will save you
13:00 Why you don't want to go to trial
15:00 A trial day, hour by hour
19:00 Exhibits, delays, and the pro se experience
22:00 Choosing a lawyer who will actually listen
29:00 What her method builds: mindset and offense
32:00 Reframing facts into the five things judges rule on
49:00 Negotiating a high-conflict opponent: leverage and supply

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Rebecca Zung: https://www.rebeccazung.com/
🔗 Rebecca's book, SLAY the Bully: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win: https://www.amazon.com/SLAY-Bully-How-Negotiate-Narcissist/dp/1637586868

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

A six-year-old, Nicolle Kopping-Pavars says, often understood the divorce better than the adults living it. She spent years as the lawyer for the child in high-conflict Canadian custody cases, the person whose only client was the kid, and this episode is what that seat taught her.

Nicolle Kopping-Pavars is a former family lawyer who worked as a court-appointed children's lawyer through the Office of the Children's Lawyer, representing kids from age one to seventeen in high-conflict separations and child-protection cases. She has since left litigation to work as a peace coach and mindfulness instructor. She and Lisa were introduced by a mutual guest and, in Nicolle's words, were on the same page from the first conversation.

Much of the hour is her method and what it reveals. She sorted parents into camps by how they received her, and grew wary of the ones who worked hardest to convince her they were the good parent. She refused to read the court file before meeting the parents, so a skilled writer's version of events could not prime her. And she lays out how a trained children's lawyer catches coaching: is the child consistent, is the account independent of which parent brought them, and do the rehearsed answers survive being asked again a little later. To bring a child's wishes to the judge honestly, she cast the child as the director and herself as the scriptwriter, and when a child was too afraid to have something said aloud, she offered to tell the judge privately.

For parents, her guidance is practical and gentle. Do not lean on a child's self-report, and never let them know you were the one who flagged a concern. She shares two questions she used to reach a child's real feelings, an imaginary island and asking the "wisest person in the world" what advice they'd give their parents, and cautions parents not to run them on their own kids. She closes on the two-bosses analogy for what you are really asking a child to do, why "you did nothing wrong" can backfire, and the peace-coaching work she does now.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What a court-appointed children's lawyer actually does, and why nothing a parent tells them is privileged
• Why an experienced children's lawyer reads the parents before the court file, to avoid being swayed
• How professionals spot a coached child: consistency, independence, and answers that vanish minutes later
• Why responding fast and respectfully to a children's lawyer matters more than you'd think
• The "director and scriptwriter" method for carrying a child's wishes into court without exposing them
• Why you can't rely on a child's self-report, and how to raise a concern without breaking their trust
• Two questions that reveal what a child actually feels, and why not to use them on your own kids
• What to say, and not say, to a child about the split so they don't blame themselves

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 From children's lawyer to peace coach: Nicolle's background
4:00 "Chunky dinks": why kids see and understand everything
6:00 Reading parents before the court file, and the three camps
11:00 How fast a parent responds, and why there's no privilege with parents
16:00 Your "response-ability," and reassurance for a scared parent
19:00 Spotting a coached child: the last-name story
23:00 Consistency, independence, and how often she met the kids
25:00 The director-and-scriptwriter method, and telling the judge privately
30:00 Reporting "rages," and the collaterals she trusted
37:00 Two questions: the island, and the wisest kid in the world
45:00 The "two bosses" analogy, what to say about the split, and finding Nicolle

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Some of the most damaging people you'll meet make a wonderful first impression, and that's exactly the problem. In this episode, Dr. George Simon, retired clinical psychologist of 40+ years and author of *In Sheep's Clothing* and *Character Disturbance*, joins Lisa to explain how manipulative people actually operate and how to recognize one before you're in too deep.

Dr. Simon describes the "charm alarm" that should go off when someone is working hard to look good, the two tells that matter most (never holding themselves accountable, and always playing the injured party), and why charm is a skill rather than proof of good character. He and Lisa also get honest about why conventional therapy so often fails with people who won't change, how to keep your composure when someone treats the courtroom as a stage, and the relief that comes from focusing only on what you can control.

This is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

✅ WHAT YOU'LL LEARN
 ✅ The difference between character disturbance and ordinary insecurity or neurosis
 ✅ The "charm alarm": why a great first impression can be the first red flag
 ✅ The two tells that matter most: no accountability, and always playing the victim
 ✅ Why charm and impression management are skills, not signs of good character
 ✅ Why conventional therapy so often fails with people who won't change
 ✅ How to keep your composure when someone uses the courtroom as a stage
 ✅ Why focusing on what you can't control keeps you stuck, and what to do instead
 ✅ How to protect yourself while you still have a choice about who's in your life

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS (+1:00 for the bumper)
 0:00 Intro
 1:00 Why the most dangerous people make the best first impression
 3:30 Character disturbance vs. the wounds we assume are underneath
 5:38 How to actually spot a personality disorder
 9:25 The "charm alarm" and doing your homework
 14:34 Why a court order is often just a piece of paper to them
 15:52 Composure and integrity when the system feels unfair
 21:08 Why so much therapy fails, and the support that helps
 28:01 Let go of what you can't control, act on what you can
 31:15 Dr. Simon's books and where to find him

CTA (spoken): Dealing with someone like this? Book a free discovery call at beentheregotout.com.
 Books: Been There Got Out — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Relationships-Circumstances/dp/194627495X/ · When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Out-Against/dp/1967674183
 More from Dr. Simon: drgeorgesimon.com
 Tags: character disturbance, manipulative people, in sheep's clothing, george simon, narcissistic abuse, impression management, red flags, why therapy fails, high conflict divorce

For years, survivors of coercive control heard that what happened to them was real but had no legal category. A landmark Ontario ruling started to change that. In this episode, Sean Valentine of the Family Law Coach joins Lisa to break down a rare event: a self-represented survivor who won compensation for the coercion and control she endured over a 16-year marriage, under a newly recognized "tort of family violence."

Sean and Lisa dig into what made it possible, from how the claim was pleaded to the domestic-violence and power-imbalance training Canadian judges receive. They're honest about the hard questions too: how to put a dollar figure on years of psychological harm, and how a system opens this door without inviting exploitation. Lisa adds her perspective on the grit it takes to stand before a judge alone.

This is strategic education about a Canadian legal development, not legal advice for your specific situation.

✅ WHAT YOU'LL LEARN
 ✅ What the new "tort of family violence" actually means for survivors
 ✅ How a self-represented litigant won damages for coercive control
 ✅ The specific way the claim had to be pleaded to succeed
 ✅ Why judicial training on abuse and power imbalances mattered
 ✅ How courts wrestle with putting a dollar figure on psychological harm
 ✅ The risk of a precedent like this being exploited, and the balance courts must strike
 ✅ What it really takes to represent yourself in a high-stakes hearing
 ✅ Why being proactive with evidence matters, with or without a lawyer

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS (+1:00 for the bumper)
 0:00 Intro
 1:00 The self-represented survivor who made legal history
 5:00 What the "tort of family violence" means
 15:23 Judicial training, and why this ruling was possible
 23:00 Could it be exploited? Putting a number on psychological harm
 28:14 Being proactive in your own case

CTA (spoken): Steering your own high-conflict case? Book a free discovery call at beentheregotout.com.
 Books: Been There Got Out — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Relationships-Circumstances/dp/194627495X/ · When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Out-Against/dp/1967674183
 Tags: coercive control, tort of family violence, family law, canada, self represented litigant, pro se, domestic abuse, power imbalance, high conflict divorce

Bill Farias has a simple test before anyone decides to represent themselves in family court: how much is on the line? The longer the marriage and the more that is at stake, the more a do-it-yourself approach can cost you.

Bill Farias is a family law attorney in Massachusetts, where he practices as Various Family Law and answers a steady stream of questions online. He takes a holistic view of a case, bringing in therapists, financial professionals, coaches, and parenting coordinators alongside the legal work. This conversation is the second half of his talk with Lisa on strategy and persuasion in family court.

In this episode, Bill and Lisa dig into what actually decides cases. He explains the spectrum of risk that should guide whether, and how much, you invest in representation, and why self-represented litigants so often lose on presentation rather than facts. Lisa adds the framework she teaches: logos, pathos, and ethos, the facts, the emotion, and your credibility in the room. They cover why a bad first order is so hard to undo, and why one bad incident rarely persuades a judge when a documented pattern will.

They also get practical about limited-scope representation and why coming in and out of a case makes it hard for any attorney to help, how to be a client your legal team can actually work with, and why court is not the place to be validated. Bill shares the resources he layers around a case, and his rule for a struggling marriage: if you are not actively trying to fix it, and there is no realistic chance of fixing it, you should be working on an exit plan. He closes on why "staying for the kids" often teaches them that a dysfunctional relationship is normal.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• How to gauge where you fall on the "spectrum of risk" before representing yourself
• Why knowing your story cold is not the same as presenting it persuasively
• Why a bad first order is so hard to undo, and why the foundation is worth getting right
• Why one bad incident rarely moves a judge, and what a pattern log does
• When limited-scope (unbundled) help works, and when piecemeal representation backfires
• How to be the kind of client an attorney can actually help
• Why court will not validate you, and how to use your few minutes wisely
• Why "staying for the kids" in a toxic relationship can harm them

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Where you fall on the spectrum of risk
3:00 Why pro se goes wrong, and the three parts of persuasion
7:00 Why a bad first order is so hard to undo
9:00 Isolated incidents vs. patterns, and what to log
13:00 Limited-scope help: where it works and where it fails
17:00 How to be a client your attorney can actually help
19:00 Court is not there to validate you: use your time wisely
21:00 Resources beyond a lawyer: therapy, finances, coaching
23:00 Changing the law, and your own case first
25:00 The questions family lawyers get, and staying "for the kids"

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Bill Farias at Farias Family Law: https://www.billfariaslaw.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Getting good orders is not the finish line. Lisa has had good orders for years and has spent most of that time trying to get them enforced, which is the part nobody warns people about when they picture their day in court.

This episode is a change of format. Rather than interviewing an expert, Chris interviews Lisa about her own case, which began in 2015 and was entering its eighth year at the time of recording. She has been self-represented in Connecticut for over four years, a decision she made after her divorce alone cost six figures. Her background is teaching, including teaching persuasive writing, which she says is most of what transferred. The pair have a name for people at this stage, borrowed from their own support group: the newcomers are the babies and the people years deep are the grizzled veterans, scarred but considerably harder to knock over.

Lisa walks through how she prepared. Narrowing years of material down to the one issue in front of the court and resisting the pull to bring in everything else. Sequencing exhibits so the strongest item lands first and another one lands last, an approach she credits to a family law attorney who has been on the show. The procedural traps: evidence cannot be a surprise, there are filing deadlines, the other side gets an exhibit list, and anything shared with a guardian ad litem or evaluator is not private. She describes checking every step with the court clerk's supervisor rather than taking opposing counsel's word for it, and the weekend she spent going through every exhibit against her binder and the court's list with Chris.

The second half is about how you carry yourself once you are in there. Why a self-represented person is effectively holding two roles at once and dressing for both. Why turning up looking deliberately down-at-heel does not read to a judge the way people hope it will. The notes she writes to herself about slowing down and keeping her face still while things she knows to be untrue go on the record, and how she chooses which of those actually affect the outcome and which are noise designed to pull attention off the evidence. They also talk about a confrontation outside the courthouse and how staff handled it, why she decided not to spend her energy pursuing an attorney's conduct, and the hearing that morning where a judge cut through the distraction and Lisa asked for the thing she now asks for every time.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• How to narrow years of documentation into exhibits a judge can actually follow
• Evidence rules self-represented people get caught by: deadlines, exhibit lists, no surprises
• Why to verify procedure with the court clerk rather than with opposing counsel
• What to wear when you're representing yourself, and why it's two roles in one hearing
• Handling constant objections and interruptions without losing the room
• Which untrue statements to correct on the record, and which ones to let go past
• Why an order without a deadline and a consequence is worth very little
• How people keep going through a case that has already taken years

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Eight years in, and what a grizzled veteran is
6:00 Fifteen months waiting for a court date
8:00 Why Lisa went pro se, and what her background gave her
10:00 Narrowing four years of evidence down to one issue
12:00 Evidence rules: no surprises, deadlines, and who else sees it
14:30 The prep weekend, and the post-it notes to herself
16:00 Renumbered exhibits, objections, and being sent out to sort it
18:30 What to wear, and the two roles you're playing at once
24:00 The confrontation outside, and how the courthouse handled it
29:30 Distraction witnesses, the record, and protecting credibility
36:00 The New York hearing, and why orders need teeth

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

A gut feeling that something is wrong can sit on a person for a year before they act on it. Jon, who runs Rhino Surveillance outside Nashville, meets people at exactly that point, when they finally need to know for certain.

Jon has been a licensed private investigator for twelve years and owns Rhino Surveillance, working across Tennessee and, when a case travels, neighboring states. Surveillance is about 90% of what he does, split between child custody and infidelity, with insurance and workplace-leave fraud rounding it out. A BTGO client referred him for the empathy he brings to the work, and he is open that the job is as much sitting with a distraught client as it is running a stakeout. This is the first of two conversations with Lisa.

For custody, Jon works from the parenting plan and gathers evidence of where a parent violates it or shows themselves unfit: drinking within the hours they're ordered to stay sober, an overnight guest that isn't allowed, handing the kids off to relatives during time they fought to get. He is emphatic that a single instance rarely persuades a judge, so he documents a pattern across several occasions, the same discipline Chris and Lisa teach as targeted documentation. He runs plates on unfamiliar vehicles and background checks on overnight guests, which has surfaced criminal histories a parent needs the court to know about, and he testifies to it when a case doesn't settle.

There is a second thread running through the hour. Jon says most of his infidelity clients today are men, and more of his surveillance is on women than most people would guess, a reminder that betrayal and high-conflict behavior don't track anyone's assumptions about gender. And nearly everyone who hires him has been carrying a suspicion an ex kept calling paranoia. He describes what happens when the proof finally exists: it hurts, and at the same time a weight lifts, because the person can trust their own read on reality again. He and Lisa also get into how clients accidentally sabotage their own cases by tipping the other side off, and how to vet an investigator: licensing, reviews, and the red flags that should send you elsewhere.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What a private investigator actually gathers for a custody case: proof of parenting-plan violations and unfit behavior
• Why one incident isn't enough: judges want a documented pattern, the same rule BTGO teaches
• The surprising split in who gets investigated for cheating, and why the stereotype is wrong
• The signs that send people to a PI, from phone secrecy to sudden changes
• How background checks on an ex's overnight guests can surface real risks to your kids
• Why doing your own digging can blow the whole case, and the poker face that protects it
• How to vet an investigator: license, reviews, and the red flags that mean walk away
• Why having proof lifts the burden of a gut feeling an ex kept gaslighting

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Meet Jon, and what Rhino Surveillance does
3:00 The services: custody, infidelity, and fraud
5:00 The signs that send people to a PI
7:00 Who actually gets investigated for cheating
9:00 Why empathy is the job, not a nice-to-have
15:00 Custody work: proving parenting-plan violations
17:00 Why one incident isn't enough, and background checks
21:00 Testifying, the "money shot," and the "deer in the headlights"
27:00 When proof lifts the burden of a gut feeling
41:00 How clients ruin their own case by tipping their hand
43:00 How to vet a private investigator

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Jon at Rhino Surveillance: https://rhinosurveillance.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.