🎯 "Loss is loss. And we lose not only loved ones, but we lose a lot of different aspects in our life. Losing a child through disconnection... that is a really serious aspect of grief."

Jock Brocas—spiritual medium, psychologist researcher, ex-military, and grief expert—explains the unique grief of alienated parents during what he calls the "Bermuda Triangle" of holidays (Thanksgiving through New Year).

This conversation addresses the grief no one talks about: when your child is alive but you've lost them. When they've rejected you or been turned against you. When you're experiencing what Jock calls "living bereavement."

What You'll Learn:

✅ Why grief isn't the five stages you learned (and what it actually is)
✅ The "golden thread" that runs through every type of loss
✅ Why disconnection—not death—is at the heart of all grief
✅ The first grief people don't recognize: disconnection from yourself
✅ Why holidays amplify grief for parents separated from children
✅ How anger serves a purpose (and what to do with it)
✅ The power of journaling—written, video, or audio
✅ Why gratitude needs to go deeper than surface level
✅ How to know yourself when you've lost your center
✅ Practical tools for processing grief without closure

About Jock Brocas:

Jock Brocas is a spiritual medium, psychologist researcher (finishing Masters in Transformational Psychology), founding chief editor of Paranormal Daily News, and author of multiple internationally published books. With backgrounds in military service and monastery training, Jock brings unique perspective to grief work—combining spiritual wisdom with psychological research. He's spent over 25 years helping people process all types of loss, from battlefield deaths to relationship disconnection to parental alienation.

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introduction: Grief expert meets Been There Got Out
02:42 - What makes this grief different from death or divorce
04:48 - Jock's background: Medium, psychologist, military
09:01 - Why the "stages of grief" are wrong
15:30 - The Bermuda Triangle: Holidays and alienated parents
20:45 - Disconnection as the heart of all grief
27:15 - Anger's purpose and how to channel it
33:40 - Journaling as cathartic practice
38:20 - Video and audio journaling techniques
42:35 - The first grief: Disconnection from yourself
44:07 - Understanding gratitude beyond surface level
47:18 - Jock's upcoming grief course
48:40 - Final thoughts on transformation

CONNECT WITH JOCK BROCAS:

🌐 Website: https://JockBrocas.com
📱 Instagram: @jockbrocas
📰 Paranormal Daily News (Founding Chief Editor)
📚 Multiple Published Books on Spirituality & Grief

BEEN THERE GOT OUT RESOURCES:

📚 Parental Alienation Course (March 2026): [Link]
💬 Instagram: @been_there_got_out
🌐 Blog: https://beentheregotout.com/blog

#Grief #ParentalAlienation #AmbiguousLoss #LivingBereavement #HolidayGrief #Disconnection #GriefTherapy #SpiritualMedium #ChildRejection #HolidaysWithoutKids

🎯 "I couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. It was all because of what I was doing—what we were doing—to my kids."

If that sounds familiar, this conversation is for you.

Jill Barnett Kaufman is a licensed therapist, divorce coach, certified mediator, and co-parenting expert who's been helping parents since the 90s. But she's also been exactly where you are—terrified that divorce would ruin her children's lives.

Now, years later, with thriving adult children (including a middle child who recently told her she finally understands what a healthy relationship looks like), Jill shares what actually protects kids during high-conflict divorce—and why your fear that they'll be ruined is probably wrong.

What You'll Learn:

✅ Signs your child is struggling vs. normal adjustment to divorce
✅ Why anxiety and depression in kids look different than you'd expect
✅ What regression actually means (it's not just bedwetting)
✅ Why your ex will treat your child differently than they treated you
✅ How to respond when your ex badmouths you to the kids
✅ The power children have that spouses don't (and why this matters)
✅ Parallel parenting vs. co-parenting: When to accept reality
✅ Communication strategies when every notification triggers your PTSD
✅ Why using ChatGPT for emails usually backfires (and what to do instead)
✅ The one truth that changed Jill's perspective: Staying in an unhealthy marriage teaches kids THAT is what relationships look like

About Jill Barnett Kaufman: Jill is a licensed therapist, divorce coach, and certified mediator who's specialized in parenting and co-parenting since the 1990s. She runs a large Facebook community for people going through separation and divorce and offers group coaching, one-on-one support, an online course, and a book. Most importantly, she's lived it—she went through her own high-conflict divorce when her son was 12, experiencing the same terror about her children's futures that she now helps other parents navigate.

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introduction: Will my kids be okay?
01:44 - Signs your child is struggling with divorce stress
03:10 - What regression looks like (beyond bedwetting)
04:47 - Anxiety and depression in children: What to watch for
06:16 - When temporary symptoms become concerning
08:39 - Why your ex will treat your child differently than you
09:52 - The power kids have that you didn't as a spouse
11:15 - How to respond when your ex badmouths you
13:40 - Teaching kids to set boundaries (without coaching them)
15:20 - The importance of listening more than talking
17:36 - Why parents shouldn't script kids' responses
19:00 - Parallel parenting vs. co-parenting reality
19:58 - Communication when every notification triggers PTSD
20:45 - Common communication mistakes (even with ChatGPT)
22:35 - The truth about staying "for the kids"
24:25 - Why kids feel responsible when you're struggling
25:27 - How to find Jill and her community

CONNECT WITH JILL BARNETT KAUFMAN:
🌐 Website: https://DivorceCoachJill.com
📧 Email: [email protected]
👥 Facebook: Separation and Divorce Support Community
📚 Book, Online Course, and Group Coaching available

BEEN THERE GOT OUT RESOURCES:

📚 Strategic Communication Course: https://programs.beentheregotout.com/strategic-communication
💬 Instagram: @been_there_got_out
🌐 Blog: https://beentheregotout.com/blog

#KidsAndDivorce #HighConflictDivorce #ParallelParenting #DivorceCoach #HealthyParent #CoParenting #AnxiousKids #DivorceAdvice #ParentingAfterDivorce

🎯 If divorce paperwork makes you want to crawl under your desk and never come out, you're not alone—and you're not broken.

Jorie Houlihan, a certified life coach specializing in ADHD (and diagnosed herself at age 49), explains why so many people in high-conflict divorce situations struggle with the organizational demands—and what actually helps.

Even if you don't have an ADHD diagnosis, the strategies Jorie shares work for anyone dealing with overwhelm, decision fatigue, and the paralyzing stress of legal deadlines!

What You'll Learn:

✅ Why ADHD diagnoses are surging (especially for women) and what it actually looks like
✅ The subtle signs of ADHD that get dismissed as "character flaws"
✅ Why divorce paperwork triggers paralysis and decision fatigue
✅ How to break overwhelming tasks into manageable chunks (the "3 questions at a time" method)
✅ Body doubling: The weird productivity hack that actually works
✅ Why analog tools (paper lists, physical timers) outperform digital for many people
✅ Time blindness and how to work with it (not against it)
✅ Celebrating small wins when you don't have a natural sense of accomplishment
✅ Why "I did my best" isn't always enough—and what to do instead

About Jorie Houlihan:

Jorie is a certified life coach who specializes in working with women diagnosed later in life with ADHD. After being diagnosed herself at age 49—30 years after first trying to talk to a doctor about it—Jorie now helps clients understand how their brains work, put guardrails around struggles, and recognize their strengths. She calls herself "your guide for the dopamine deprived" and hosts the podcast "ADHD and... with Jorie Houlihan."

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introduction: ADHD and the shame cycle
02:25 - Why ADHD diagnoses are increasing (it's not what you think)
04:49 - The three presentations of ADHD and subtle signs
07:19 - ADHD in divorce: Paralysis with paperwork and deadlines
10:38 - The "3 questions at a time" method for overwhelming tasks
13:25 - Externalizing thoughts: Why writing everything down matters
16:42 - Decision fatigue and simplifying choices
19:50 - Breaking tasks into tiny steps (and why that's not "cheating")
23:15 - The dopamine crisis and shame cycle
26:40 - Body doubling: The productivity hack that sounds weird but works
29:30 - Analog vs. digital: Why paper lists and physical clocks help
33:12 - Celebrating wins when accomplishment doesn't come naturally
35:31 - ADHD strengths: Creativity, pattern recognition, empathy
37:57 - How to find Jorie Houlihan

CONNECT WITH JORIE HOULIHAN:

🌐 Website: https://joriehoulihan.com
📱 Instagram: @joriehoulihan
💼 LinkedIn: Jorie Houlihan
🎙️ Podcast: "ADHD and... with Jorie Houlihan" (available everywhere)

BEEN THERE GOT OUT RESOURCES:

📚 Strategic Communication Course: https://programs.beentheregotout.com/strategic-communication
💬 Instagram: @been_there_got_out
🌐 Blog: https://beentheregotout.com/blog

🎯 If your child is drowning in anxiety from family stress and you're tired of adding more therapy appointments, this conversation will open new possibilities.
 
Brian Barry, Program Manager at Clay Art Center in Port Chester, NY, explains why anxious kids don't need fancy tools or expensive art supplies—they just need curiosity, enthusiasm, and a chance to get their hands messy.
 
Lisa visits the Clay Art Center to explore how creative activities help children process stress without the pressure to talk about their feelings—perfect for kids dealing with divorce, custody transitions, or family conflict.
 
What You'll Learn:
 
✅ Why anxious kids benefit from creative outlets (not more talk therapy)
✅ How clay's messy nature forces kids off their phones and into the present
✅ The misconception that art requires talent or expensive supplies
✅ Why "working with your hands" helps process emotions kids can't verbalize
✅ How failure in ceramics teaches resilience (things explode, break, or don't turn out—and that's okay)
✅ The importance of NOT forcing kids to talk about feelings during creative activities
✅ How digging wild clay teaches science, math, and perseverance
✅ Why parents should work alongside their kids (without pressuring performance)
✅ Alternatives if you don't have a local art center (air-dried clay, local schools, community programs)

About Brian Barry:

Brian Barry is the Program Manager at Clay Art Center in Port Chester, NY, where he coordinates community arts programs for children and adults. Before joining Clay Art Center, Brian worked at an educational nonprofit providing free tutoring for students in grades 2-12. Despite having zero ceramics experience when he started, Brian has learned firsthand how accessible and transformative working with clay can be—no prior experience or fancy tools required.
 
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introduction: Art activities for anxious children
00:27 - Brian introduces himself and Clay Art Center
02:06 - Misconceptions about art and who it's "for"
04:07 - You don't need experience, skills, or expensive supplies
04:58 - Digging wild clay: Kids learn from start to finish
06:09 - The science behind clay (testing, absorption rates, shrinkage)
07:38 - Math, science, and art working together
09:15 - How clay helps anxious kids process emotions
10:30 - Technology addiction and why clay forces presence
11:53 - Learning resilience through failure (things explode and break)
13:16 - Student transformation stories: Confidence and growth
14:52 - Getting kids out of virtual worlds and into creative spaces
16:46 - The importance of joy (not performance or pressure)
18:03 - Why forcing kids to talk about feelings can backfire
19:00 - Alternatives if you don't have a local art center

CLAY ART CENTER:

📍 Port Chester, NY
🌐 Website: [Clay Art Center website]
📱 Instagram: [Clay Art Center Instagram]

BEEN THERE GOT OUT RESOURCES:

📚 Strategic Communication Course: https://programs.beentheregotout.com/strategic-communication
💬 Instagram: @been_there_got_out
🌐 Blog: https://beentheregotout.com/blog

When a child is turned against a loving parent, it can feel permanent, especially once that child is grown. Filmmaker Ginger Gentile, who exposed this in her documentary Erasing Family, joins Lisa with a message a lot of alienated parents have stopped letting themselves believe: it is not too late.

After making the film, Ginger started helping families reunite directly. What she's learned is often the opposite of what the court fight teaches you. The instinct is to prove your case and win the big victory. The thing that works is quieter: keep the door open, keep encouraging your child, and stop making reconnection about who was right. She and Lisa talk through what reunification actually looks like, why it happens fast for some and slowly for others, and how to stay steady in the waiting.

✅ WHAT YOU'LL LEARN
 ✅ Why reconnection is possible even after years of estrangement
 ✅ What the parents who actually reunited did differently
 ✅ Why "winning the argument" tends to push an alienated child further away
 ✅ How to keep the door open without pressuring your child
 ✅ What real reunification looks like, start to finish
 ✅ Why some families reconnect fast and others take much longer
 ✅ The "one big victory" trap, and what to aim for instead
 ✅ How to stay steady while you wait for a child to come back

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS (+1:00 for the bumper)
 0:00 Intro
 1:00 From "Erasing Family" to reversing alienation
 6:28 What the film taught her about reunification
 11:30 The first alienation cases she worked
 16:30 Blessing your child instead of fighting
 21:30 What reunification actually looks like
 26:31 Why some kids come back fast, others slowly
 36:34 The "one big victory" trap
 41:36 Where to find Ginger

CTA (spoken): Trying to reconnect with a child who's been turned against you? Book a free discovery call at beentheregotout.com.
 Books: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Out-Against/dp/1967674183 · Been There Got Out — https://www.amazon.com/Been-There-Got-Relationships-Circumstances/dp/194627495X/
 Tags: parental alienation, reversing parental alienation, ginger gentile, erasing family, reunification, estrangement, alienated parent, high conflict divorce

Danny Karon calls it legal wellness: the upkeep that keeps a small legal problem from turning into a large one. He frames it as the neglected third bucket alongside emotional and financial wellness, and argues that when your legal health falls apart, it takes your peace of mind and your bank account with it.

Danny Karon is a consumer-protection and class-action attorney based in Cleveland, Ohio, who has taught complex litigation at the law-school level and wrote a guide to legal wellness for people who never thought the law was for them. This is a general access-to-justice conversation rather than a family-law episode, so his stories come from small claims and consumer cases, and Lisa connects them to the family-court audience.

In this episode, Karon and Lisa cover why leaning on AI for legal work is dangerous, given the hallucinated citations that have gotten lawyers fined, and what it actually takes to represent yourself: knowing what to file, how to serve the other side, and when to lean on the clerk of courts for help with the mechanics. He talks about dressing and behaving in a way the court takes seriously, reading the room, and letting go of the dramatic-courtroom fantasy that sets people up to be disappointed.

He closes on legal wellness as prevention: read your contracts, notice the arbitration clauses and liability waivers you cannot change, and adjust your behavior around them. The message he keeps returning to is empowerment through education, doing what you can for yourself and hiring a lawyer only when you truly need one.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why outsourcing legal work to AI is risky: invented case citations, and lawyers being sanctioned
• Representing yourself means being held to the same rules of procedure and evidence as any attorney
• Getting the mechanics right: what to file, how to style it, and how to serve the other side
• Why the clerk of courts can be a real ally, especially in small claims
• Why dress and demeanor matter: look the part, because the judge does
• Reading the room: watch the judge, and know when to stop talking
• Legal wellness as prevention: read your contracts, arbitration clauses, and waivers before signing
• The through-line: empowerment through education, and hiring a lawyer only when you must

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 When the system meant to help makes things worse
3:00 Meet Danny Karon: Cleveland lawyer and professor
5:00 Why AI is a bad idea in law
7:00 Representing yourself: same rules apply
8:00 Getting your filings and service right
9:30 The small-claims story: preparation shows
11:00 What to wear, and looking the part
15:00 No Perry Mason moments: courtroom reality
18:00 Read the rules, and make the clerk your ally
21:00 Legal wellness: reading the contracts you sign

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Danny Karon at Your Lovable Lawyer: https://yourlovablelawyer.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Stacy Schaffer works with the child nobody is worried about. She calls them shiny kids: succeeding, organized, often perfectionist, and carrying more than the sibling whose behavior is getting all the adult attention.

Stacy is a licensed professional counselor in Colorado, licensed in Texas as well, who specializes in grief work and in children caught in parental conflict. This conversation picks up mid-thread after a dropped connection, and it moves fast through the things she hears from kids that their parents never do.

First is money. Kids of divorce know what the case costs, and Stacy has children telling her they feel guilty for having an expensive interest, or deciding not to ask for anything at the holidays. In one family a parent brings up the legal bills whenever a chore goes undone. Then there is magical thinking, which is the reason a young child concludes the divorce is their fault. Believing something is wrong with them is easier than believing the adults have lost control of the world, and Stacy points to a children's book where a kid asks whether the divorce happened because of the chocolate pudding on the wall.

Her working principle is that if power is going to be taken from a child, she is going to find them some. That means talking about what they do control, which is their thoughts, their reactions, and how much of their own time they waste being miserable. One of her clients described being in the middle of a tug of war, and she asked him what it would be like not to pick up the rope. The tool she builds with them is a comfort kit, assembled around the five senses so it works in both houses and needs nobody's approval: scent, because it reaches the brain fastest, fabric swatches that kids reach for more than any purchased fidget, fidgets that make no noise rather than the ones that irritate a whole classroom, and notes written ahead of time by the parent they are away from. She closes on the child who dislikes one house, and why distraction counts as a coping skill when the countdown is the situation.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• The shiny kid: why the child performing well may be the one carrying more
• How much kids know about what the divorce is costing, and the guilt it creates
• Magical thinking, and why a young child concludes the divorce is their fault
• The tug-of-war reframe: what happens when a child does not pick up the rope
• How to build a comfort kit around the five senses that travels between houses
• Why scent works fastest, and why fabric beats the expensive fidgets
• What to tell a child counting down the days at a house they do not want to be in

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 The shiny kid: doing fine on the outside, struggling underneath
3:00 Kids who feel guilty about what the divorce is costing
4:00 Locus of control, and the child who would not pick up the rope
5:00 Magical thinking, and why kids decide it is their fault
7:00 Giving a child agency when they have almost none
8:00 Building a comfort kit around the five senses
10:00 Scent, texture, fidgets, and notes from the other house
14:00 The house they dislike, and distraction as a coping skill
16:00 Where to find Stacy

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Stacy Schaffer, MA, LPC: https://stacyschaffer.com/
🔗 Stacy Schaffer on Instagram (@hoperestored): https://www.instagram.com/hoperestored/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Four of the seven have almost nothing to do with the relationship. That is the part Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky wanted to get to in this conversation, because the people who arrive at her office blaming themselves are usually the ones whose partner's reasons were never about them in the first place.

Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky, who goes by Liz, is a marriage and family therapist running a clinic with offices in Virginia Beach and Fairfax, Virginia, where she also trains other therapists in emotionally focused couples counseling. She is licensed across roughly seven states, which is a consequence of military life. She is a military spouse from a dual-military family, her husband was deployed while this was recorded, and a large part of her caseload is military couples, which shapes much of what she has seen. This is her second appearance here, and she hosts a podcast on communication in military relationships.

The seven types come from published work by Scott Woolley, an international trainer in emotionally focused therapy. Three of them are relational. The protest or revenge affair, where each partner answers the other, which Liz watched run back and forth for seventeen years in a couple who were still working to repair it. The come-and-get-me affair, which is really about manufacturing jealousy or testing whether the love holds, and which she sees more often early in a relationship than late. And the burned-out exit affair, a way of ending a marriage without having to say the words. She and Lisa also cover what tends to come first: either conflict that spirals over nothing, or a couple who have stopped talking altogether in order to avoid it.

The other four sit with the individual. Escaping life stress into romance, the version that can run for years and sometimes produces two households, which Liz says people rarely manage to end, because there is genuine attachment and loyalty on both sides. The hedge fund affair, where somebody braced for abandonment keeps a second person in reserve. The power player affair, which is about control rather than attachment and tends to look like a series of emotionally distant encounters, and which Lisa recognizes instantly from this audience. And the compulsive affair, which behaves like an addiction, is usually about numbing anxiety, and often traces back to bullying or abuse in childhood. Liz is clear about recovery: the individual types take considerably longer than a relational repair, growth should be visible along the way, and none of the context converts a choice into an accident.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• The seven types of affairs, and what each one is actually driven by
• Why four of the seven have little to do with the state of the relationship
• The protest affair, the come-and-get-me affair, and the burned-out exit affair
• What tends to precede a relational affair, and why "we're roommates" is one signal
• The escape affair, and why attachment on both sides makes it so hard to end
• The power player affair: control rather than romance, and where it comes from
• Why the compulsive affair behaves like an addiction, and what recovery involves
• Why context can make a choice easier and never makes it an accident

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Why the seven types matter when you're busy blaming yourself
3:00 Liz's background, and what deployment does to a marriage
8:00 The protest or revenge affair
10:00 The come-and-get-me affair
12:00 The burned-out exit affair, and the signs that come before
17:00 Escaping life stress into romance, and the two-household version
22:00 The hedge fund affair
23:30 The power player affair, and where it comes from
28:00 The compulsive affair, and why it works like an addiction
35:00 Is there hope, and why it is still a choice

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky at Communicate & Connect: https://communicateandconnect.com/

🎧 More with Dr. Elizabeth Polinsky on this podcast
Ep 279: Learning to Trust Again After Betrayal

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Confidence gets talked about as a feeling. Paul Roseberry treats it as information. His argument in this conversation is that confidence is really self-awareness, and that until you can say plainly what you bring to a relationship, you have no way to judge whether the one you are in is worth staying in.

Paul Roseberry is a relationship coach based in Los Angeles who works with both men and women, mostly on romantic relationships, and who also performs as a comedian. He teaches what he calls the security method, built on a definition of security as the ability to protect something valuable. He is open about where the work comes from: he grew up overweight and poor, he stuttered, he got picked on, and he says he has done everything the wrong way at least twice. Lisa admits at the top of the episode that she nearly passed on him, because healthy-relationship coaching sounded like the wrong fit for a community dealing with abusive exes, and then changed her mind after they talked.

In this episode, Paul lays out the difference between an interest-based relationship and a need-based one, and why so many people stay in relationships that are serving a purpose other than the relationship. He walks through his fives exercise, a running list you keep in your notes app over weeks rather than finishing in ten minutes. He describes what he calls the short game, the day-to-day communication that decides whether two people actually work, and why that matters more than the first impression. He and Lisa also talk about how popular culture sells jealousy and reconciliation as proof of love, and what that teaches people who never saw anything healthier.

The part Lisa keeps coming back to is his line about keeping the ability to walk away. He is careful to say it is not a threat and not a dark way to live. It is the opposite: if you know you could leave, you have chosen the person on purpose, and you may well never need to.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why fear of starting over keeps people in relationships they have already given up on
• The fives: a running list of what you bring, what you want, and what makes you good company
• Interest-based versus need-based relationships, and how to tell which one you are in
• Why someone who has never seen a healthy relationship does not go looking for one
• How "nobody else would put up with you" works as a control tactic
• Flipping the script: doing the assessing instead of waiting to be assessed
• The short game, and why day-to-day communication decides more than first impressions
• Why keeping the ability to leave usually means you never have to use it

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Confidence as self-awareness, and where people skip a step
3:00 The security method: interest-based, not need-based
5:00 Staying because the relationship serves some other purpose
7:00 The fives, and what you bring to the table
9:00 When you have never seen a healthy relationship up close
11:00 A whole half instead of a half whole
13:00 Lisa's list, and twenty years of not matching it
15:00 Pop culture, jealousy, and mistaking conflict for closeness
19:00 When is it time to leave?
21:00 Flipping the script, and keeping the ability to walk away
26:00 Where to find Paul

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Paul Roseberry: https://paulroseberry.com

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.

Olaolu Ogunyemi grabbed his kids by the arm every time they wandered toward the street without looking, and he will tell you what that bought him. Compliance in the moment, and a memory of dad grabbing them. Not one child who understood why you look both ways. He uses it to make a distinction that runs through the whole conversation, between discipline, whose root is teaching, and getting someone to do what you said.

Our guest this episode is Olaolu Ogunyemi, a US Marine officer, leadership speaker, children's book author, and the founder of Parent-Child Connect, which builds resources for the parents, teachers, mentors, coaches, and caregivers around a child. He grew up in Louisiana; his father immigrated from Nigeria for college. He has a wife and three children spread across a decade, and a family large enough that he has lost exact count of his nieces and nephews. He graduated college at twenty-two already married with a three-year-old, which is roughly how he describes his qualifications at the time.

His argument is that no parent does this alone. He was, in his own word, a knucklehead: insecure, overweight, teased for his name, and drawn to whichever crowd would take him. His parents were saying the right things the whole time. It took coaches and mentors saying the same things in a different register before any of it landed. That is why he wants a parent in a hard custody situation to resist the instinct to close the circle.

He and Lisa work through what to do when a child is acting out, starting with the root cause rather than the obvious culprit, and with the question of what the child is trying to be accepted for. They talk about anxious kids growing up inside an information stream their parents never had, and why telling them to unplug is not a plan. Olaolu describes the wall of emotion words he printed out, and the day his six-year-old used it to say she was disappointed in a friend, and then went and told the friend. He closes on his children's book Crow from the Shadow, where the shadow is any person, place, or thing that tells you what you cannot be.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• Why no parent can be everything to a child, and why other trusted adults matter more here
• Finding the root cause of a child acting out instead of the obvious explanation
• Acceptance: what your child is trying to be accepted for, and whether home supplies it
• Anxious kids in an information stream we never grew up with, and why unplugging is not a plan
• Discipline versus compliance, and why the root of the word is teaching
• Modeling first: why a child copies what you do and not what you tell them
• The emotion board that gives a child words beyond happy, mad, and sad
• Preparing a child for the person who hears them out and does not care

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 Why other adults matter, and meeting Olaolu Ogunyemi
5:00 Being a knucklehead, and the people who said it differently
7:00 Finding the root cause instead of the obvious answer
9:00 Acceptance, and what a child is trying to be accepted for
11:00 Anxious kids in a world we did not grow up in
13:00 Discipline vs compliance, and crossing the street
17:00 Empathy, modeling, and emotional intelligence
19:00 The emotion board, and a six-year-old who said "disappointed"
21:00 Preparing kids for the person who does not care
23:00 Crow from the Shadow, Lead Last, and where to find Olaolu

Keep going 💜
Book a free 30-minute discovery call and we'll help you map your next steps: https://beentheregotout.com/call
📘 Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances — https://www.amazon.com/dp/194627495X
📘 Been There Got Out: When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You (our parental-alienation book) — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1967674183
🔗 Olaolu Ogunyemi at Parent-Child Connect: https://parent-child-connect.com/

About Been There Got Out
Chris Barry and Lisa Johnson are high-conflict divorce, custody, and co-parenting strategists, and the founders of Been There Got Out. They know these cases from the inside: both have successfully represented themselves in family court. Few attorneys have a playbook for a case like this — Chris and Lisa write yours with you, so you and your kids can get through it as unscathed as possible.