Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse?

If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you.

Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion.

 “That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and pornography use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.

To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms:

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms.

Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine your husband’s true character.

Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth about betrayal trauma symptoms is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals.

They’re not identifying the betrayal trauma symptoms as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and sexual coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today.

Welcome Kathy.

Kathy: Thank you for having me.

Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved.

When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things?

Kathy: Yes, certainly.

Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive.

It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim.

Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even pornography addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more.

Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me.

And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence.

Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified.

Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that.

Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident.

I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands.

And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their counselor actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer.

Anne: Communicate a little better.

Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better.

Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect.

Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me. They, in fact, contributed to my betrayal trauma symptoms.

Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy.

Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.”

Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger.

Kathy: Absolutely, yep.

Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves.

And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused.

Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story.

Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy.

And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness.

And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims.

Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses pornography, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue.

Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent.

Kathy: Yep.

Anne: In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence.

Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways.

Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do.

Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling.

Anne: Even just standing over them.

Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence.

Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why.

But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone.

Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in pornography addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse.

Kathy: I’m really sorry.

Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering betrayal trauma symptoms under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful.

Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you.

Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape.

Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that.

Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah,

Anne: I don’t know.

Kathy: But it’s very few and far between.

Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because…

Kathy: She’s not a victim.

Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation.

Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me?

Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app?

Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right?

Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it.

It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better?

Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it.

Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic.

And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form.

With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance.

Anne: Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse.

Kathy: You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing.

Anne: Hmm.

Kathy: That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy.

Anne: Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it?

Kathy: Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that.

Kathy: People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing.

So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z?

Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse.

Anne: One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. Even though she suffers betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use pornography, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality?

Kathy: And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously.

Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment.

Anne: We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing.

Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse?

Kathy: One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault.

Anne: That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained.

Kathy: It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom.

Anne: I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great.

Kathy: Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse.

Anne: So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s pornography use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior.

Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right?

Emotional and psychological abuse, and betrayal trauma symptoms, but she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter.

Anne: So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help. So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population.

Kathy: Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.”

Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways.

But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response.

Kathy: So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made.

Anne: Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through pornography addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his pornography use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior.

So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak.

Kathy: That’s really a thing?

Anne: This is really a thing, yeah.

Kathy: I’m horrified by what you just said.

Anne: Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it.

So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse.

Anne: And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering betrayal trauma symptoms.

Kathy: That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now.

Anne: Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this pornography addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure.

And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on.

Kathy: Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like?

Anne: Sure, yeah.

Kathy: This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me.

Kathy: First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you.

There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim.

So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?”

Anne: Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe.

Kathy: Not a safe person, yeah.

Anne: That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides.

Kathy: It takes two to tango! Yeah.

Anne: It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse.

Anne: Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma symptoms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them?

Kathy: And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving.

Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault.

That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault.

So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator.

Kathy: It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her.

Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it.

If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive.

Anne: I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors.

Kathy: Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet?

Kathy: As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible.

But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might.

And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence.

Anne: Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children.

And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you.

Kathy: Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.

One of the most frequent questions women ask is, “How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change?” Whether from secret pornography use, infidelity, emotional abuse, or other devastating forms of relational abuse, women want to know if there’s a reason to keep holding out.

The answer is yes, your husband can change. Will he? That is up to him. To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Do you have to wait around and be abused while he figures out if he wants to join you and your children? No. And you shouldn’t. Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t advocate divorce or staying in the marriage: we advocate for safety.

Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce the abuser, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further abuse. Boundaries are not statements, requests, or ultimatums. They are courageous actions that women take to separate themselves and their children from abusive behavior.

For women who choose to stay married, but courageously separate themselves from abusive behavior, the question remains: How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change? Anne Blythe has outlined 9 Signs of Change that can help victims gauge whether their husband is safe or becoming safe.

We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about emotional abuse and how to navigate your journey to emotional safety. And how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone. Join women all over the world for validation, community, and support as you process your trauma and begin healing.

Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Cece is here to share her story about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Welcome Cece.

Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.

Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. I’m so honored to talk to you about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning when you met your husband. Can you talk about how you felt at first?

Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.

Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.

Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?

Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…

Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.

Cece: Right.

Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.

Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.

Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.

Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.

Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”

I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”

And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”

“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.

Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive, and if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not.

CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.

And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match.

Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.

But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.

Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had a pornography problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.

Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something is wrong. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband will change or not?

Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.

Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.

Anne: Not like, gently.

Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.

So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”

Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. Making sure you are ready if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not.

Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents. Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.

And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.

Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.

And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.

And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find pornography again. Wondering like many others if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering pornography.

Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with sex addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. If your emotionally abusive husband will change or not.

And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.

But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.

Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?

Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work, because he was home during the day. And I walked in and I thought, this is weird. He was naked, and he had a ruler out. And I was like, what the heck is going on?

He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.” And at that point I was like, who, who did I even marry? Who is my husband right now? And I drove back to the school in tears and was totally checked out the rest of the day. I don’t even know how I got through it. That was a big turning point for me, thinking he’s got a serious problem.

Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of sex addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? And wondering if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I think being married to somebody, I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.

Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.

Cece: Yeah, that’s true.

Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why didn’t she get out? Be like, she was trying to get help, but she went to a therapist, and the therapist told her to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your emotionally abusive husband will change? What are you telling yourself?

Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.

There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.

But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.

Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.

Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.

Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.

That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.

Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.

Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die some days so that I could get out of this misery.”

Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?

Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”

Anne: Did she say, you are abused?

Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.

And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, but that was pretty much as far as it got. I worried about if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not.

Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.

There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.

I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. If your emotionally abusive husband will change, you don’t want to be unfeeling. He doesn’t like it. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally, of course.

Anne: You were resisting.

Cece: Yeah.

Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.

Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I also just. started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.

Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.

Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.

Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.

Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.

Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.

Cece: Yeah, if I live my life largely separate from him, maybe I can survive. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.

Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. If your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.

And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.

Cece: Yes, this was in combination with when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave, basically. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.

It was like he would say he wanted to, and then he would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.

Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you. Because he was busy using pornography and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. So he actually didn’t want to with you, but he wanted to make that your fault. If your emotionally abusive husband will change, it is hard to determine.

Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out, looking back. Like, oh wow, that was why he did that. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy, because my first two were girls. It was a time of hope in my life that I’d get to have a son.

It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I was like, you need to do this, because if anything’s a spiritual stronghold, it’s pornography.

Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.

So it was this new level of having to accept it. Even though it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.

And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.

Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.

And just the fact that these guys did not give up pornography for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.

Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? If your emotionally abusive husband will change, it seemed like it wouldn’t ever happen.

Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, but some of them might want to change.

Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.

Cece: Right.

Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.

Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.

Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.

Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or pornography, and I was like, this is it.

This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.

Anne: This is with a CSAT, a Certified Addiction Therapist.

Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.

Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, at least he’s being honest.

Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing pornographic video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.

We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.

Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, pornography or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.

Cece: That’s possible.

Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?

CeCe: I don’t know.

Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing pornography. I’m done.” If your emotionally abusive husband will change, what should you do?

Anne: But instead, he has to lie again, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use pornography. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either pornography or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses pornography.

So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.

Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.

So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.

Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.

Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he had a relapse. He did like a drip disclosure, which means he told me part of the truth. And then he said, uh, actually, I lied to you. There was more and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic for me.

Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.

Anne: It sounded as if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, no, I’m not doing this. And kicked him out of our room. I told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.

I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”

He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.

Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I had left my body at that point. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.

My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with a CSAT, and he went to an individual counselor.

When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”

Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband will change, it would be okay, he wasn’t.

Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He doesn’t know if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.

And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”

I wanted him to go to pornography rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.

It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.

Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma Recovery? And if your emotionally husband will change.

Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point.

Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The coaches at BTR.ORG are incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?

I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”

I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the pornography addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.

And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. But it was an easy decision to say they are not trauma informed. They’re not giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well. Look at Job and how he suffered, and you need to be like him. And I was just done at that point.

I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.

But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.

I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.

Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.

Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not.

Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.

Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.

Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.

I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.

Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”

I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.

That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary. I know I needed to know, like others, if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.

Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listen to helpful resources, and meditate on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.

And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.

And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.

So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.

Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.

Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. If your emotionally abusive husband will change your marriage would have continued.

Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”

It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”

My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.

Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.

Anne: That’s what we teach in the Living Free Workshop and the Message Workshop. Also, how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.

I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”

He would guilt me like, you’re breaking up our family. I would just go and cry before. But I just had sudden clarity, like he’s breaking up our family. And I would tell him that, I would say, “You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re the one breaking up our family, and you know it.” And he just stopped after that. It was crazy what happened when I actually stepped into my power and started calling a spade a spade.

Cece: We got to Christmas. It was peaceful. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He actually bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. But God provided, my mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.

But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. My kids, I can just send them outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there.

I’m divorced because my husband was a pornography addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.

Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? When you are groomed, it’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.

Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.

Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was in a different way. Learning if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.

Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.

Cece: Thank you so much.

If your husband betrayed you, and your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine?

Do you need support? Check out our Group Session Schedule.

I received a letter from my ex claiming he wanted to make restitution. But instead of acknowledging the years and years of lies, betrayal, and emotional abuse, he only wanted to make restitution for one week. If your husband apologizes, but you doubt his sincerity, this will help you figure out if his apology is sincere.

Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologizes. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.

It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.

Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his pornography use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his pornography use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.

Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.

Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day he tries to make restitution for. When my husband apologizes. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP, the largest anti-pornography conference in the world, the Utah Coalition Against Pornography. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his pornography addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.

He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.

Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.

I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.

The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.

I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.

I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.

Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.

My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.

He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.

And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.

Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.

It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.

Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.

One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.

Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this letter, where my husband apologizes.

Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.

I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?

I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.

The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.

Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.

There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.

If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.

Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.

Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.

I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.

So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though my husband apologizes. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.

So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.

Abusiveness at Betrayal Trauma Recovery includes lying, manipulating, pornography use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.

Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. With BTR over the years, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.

What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.

Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.

He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?

Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.

This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything, even though my husband apologized. It doesn’t talk about abuse, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using pornography during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right?

It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, sexual, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.

He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.

So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.

One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologizes in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”

So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.

Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.

They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.

Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.

We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.

I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. He performs a performance, so my husband apologizes. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.

Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.

Anne: He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because your husband apologizes. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.

Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. As that tree grows and grows. Until it is the size it once was, which would literally take 30 years. That is what restitution looks like. When I receive this letter, I have peace in my heart that I knew I was doing the right thing.

Anne: I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.

I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.

And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.

Anne: I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.

It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.

In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else?

I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of.

Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of Prayed Upon, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Anne: Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and sex abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology.

Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, Prayed Upon, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy.

We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy.

Amy: Hi, it’s so good to be here.

Anne: We have comedy in common.

When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening.

Amy: Oh, interesting.

Anne: I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma.

Amy: Yes.

Anne: So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today.

Amy: Yeah.

Anne: Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims.

Anne: So let’s start with your story.

Amy: Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist.

He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa.

Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags.

Anne: At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process?

Amy: In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off.

But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward.

So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet.

Anne: Because we reject victim blaming here at BTR.ORG, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed?

Amy: Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice.

Anne: Right, so that’s coercion, right?

Amy: Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it.

Anne: Right, and it’s coercion.

Amy: It is coercion.

Anne: This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. These were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair.

I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.”

Anne: He was married at the time?

Amy: Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old.

Anne: Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yes.

Anne: And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then.

Amy: After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam.

Anne: The pastor’s wife?

Amy: Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions.

Anne: What?

Amy: Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy.

Anne: Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means.

Anne: There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.”

Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time.

Amy:Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it.

Anne: Absolutely.

Amy: I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. Then there was another huge red flag to add to the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.”

And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim.

Anne: Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness.

Amy: Oh yeah.

Anne: When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward.

Amy: I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude.

Amy: And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again.

Anne: I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse.

So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you.

Amy: That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.”

And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen.

And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me.

Anne: Exactly.

Amy: And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you.

Anne: You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically?

Amy: Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape.

Anne: I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this.

Amy: Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior.

Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation.

Anne: And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation.

Amy: Yes, it’s like who else is there?

Anne: Mm hmm.

Amy: He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and …

Anne: Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically?

Amy: Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel.

Anne: Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong.

Amy: Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say.

Anne: Also very creepy.

Amy: Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse.

I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient.

Amy: Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it.

Anne: When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one.

Amy: No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body.

Anne: And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath.

And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister.

So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be.

Anne: I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused.

That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly.

Amy: Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him.

He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right.

Amy: And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him.

Anne: With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. They stopped charging them. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client.

Amy: Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person.

Anne: I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them.

The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign.

Amy: Right.

Anne: defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted.

Amy: An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you.

Amy: I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end.

He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate.

Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. I asked him if he would sit next to me in the oversized chair for the remainder of the session. And he did. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault because I asked him to sit next to me. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed.

I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process. That is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all.

Anne: And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time.

Amy: Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.”

And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. Is this one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist? But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave. More warning signs of an abusive therapist.

So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me.

Anne: Oh, that’s awesome.

Amy: Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours.

Anne: See, that is another red flag. That’s for sure one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. They go over time.

Amy: Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.”

And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.”

Amy: Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time.

Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return.

That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun.

It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep.

Amy: I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end.

Anne: I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on.

We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Anne: I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.”

Amy: Right, I say rationalizing.

Amy: That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it.

Anne: Yes.

Amy: The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license.

Anne: Hmm.

Amy: I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away.

Amy: Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs of an abusive therapist early. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges.

But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that.

Anne: That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news.

Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming.

Anne: Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see?

Amy: Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs of an abusive therapist. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see the red flags and warning signs of an abusive therapist.

So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed. To see the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one.

There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive.

Anne: That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her.

Amy: Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over.

Amy: You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you.

It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion.

Anne: That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making the warning signs of an abusive therapist or other abuser seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on.

Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t.

Amy: Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened.

Amy: It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself.

Anne: Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time.

The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time. Those are warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple.

Anne: A hundred percent, and almost every pornography addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know.

Amy: When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart.

Amy: If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to.

Anne: Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why.

Amy: Yeah, you don’t owe them anything.

Anne: Yes, you owe them zero things.

Amy: It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words.

Anne: But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close.

Anne: And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them.

Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag.

Amy: I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you.

You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it.

Anne: Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them.

Amy: Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave.

Anne: It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. Here at BTR.ORG, we’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm.

And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy.

Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope.

Amy: That’s very important, yes.

Anne: At BTR.ORG, we might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve. That’s also one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

Amy: Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible.

Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it.

Anne: I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it.

Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself.

That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you.

Anne: Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways.

Amy: I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial.

The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it.

They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand.

Anne: Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer.

Anne: It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session.

Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand.

Amy: I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing,

Anne: And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation.

Amy: Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone.

Amy: For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help.

However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether.

Anne: I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating.

Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you.

Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing.

Amy: Yes, thank you for having me.

If you’re wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, listen to how Anne Blythe, M.Ed. came back to herself through writing, exercise, and boundaries.

Do you need support through your healing journey? Check out our Group Support Session Schedule.

Anne: A few years ago, I was doing an interview for The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. There was this freaky Friday situation. and the guest started interviewing me. I wanted to replay a portion of that episode for you today.

Juliane: What are some steps you’re taking and have taken that have helped you regain your own sense of balance?

Anne: I’m a writer. Writing has been healing for me. I wrote every abuse episode that I could think of. Every instance of gaslighting. Every instance of emotional or psychological abuse helped me sort out what was real, what wasn’t real. It was like a hundred pages. It was crazy. When I started using that as a draft to write my book, because I want to give people concrete examples. I was so sick of my own story.

I thought that was a good sign after emotional abuse. So instead of thinking, I have to prove that he was abusive, which is how I felt before. Now that I’m healed more, I don’t need to process that anymore. Now I’m deleting huge sections out of it, because now I’m thinking, which examples will help other women?

Juliane: And you don’t have to prove why it was so crazy making for you.

Anne: Yeah, totally.

Anne: My no contact boundary is actually the most helpful thing to me. Because any interaction with him is insane, focusing on my own physical health has been good. I’ve always been really athletic, and everything went out the window the moment I married him.

I didn’t ski anymore or mountain bike anymore. And I didn’t row anymore. I didn’t do any of the things I love doing. And now I’m getting back to that. So I’m doing yoga every day and I’m weightlifting again. I may work at the ski resort the weekends when my kids are gone. So, I’m coming back to myself after emotional abuse.

Juliane: I love that phrase, by the way, coming back to myself.

Anne: Yeah, and part of that was the abuse. And also part of it is that I have three kids under the age of six, and getting out of the house is really hard. They’re getting older now. My youngest was eleven months old when he was arrested. Time has helped a lot, too. It took a lot of time to process.

Anne: In fact, I just went through a pretty hard period. I went off my antidepressant, and decided I wasn’t emotionally eating anymore. So there’s about a month where I was crying every day. I mean, really bad, in the shower. At church, finding a room where no one was, and locking myself in there. Sitting on the floor, full on bawling my head off about everything that had happened.

Because I didn’t have the crutch of food anymore, and I didn’t have my antidepressant. So there were some feelings that I hadn’t quite felt. My sister was worried about me. So was everyone else. I was like, guys, I’m gonna be okay.

I just need to feel this right now. I’m not going to eat popcorn, and I’m not going to eat Oreos. I’m not going to take an antidepressant. I just need to feel these feelings that I was not ready to feel years ago because it was too much. It would have killed me if I had to feel everything simultaneously.

So I used an antidepressant for years, and I ate a lot and gained a lot of weight. Which is fine. Both of those things are fine. Do it if that helps you.

Anne: Now I’m stronger. Knowing even if you’re making progress, be gentle with yourself. Because women, at least in my situation, have all kinds of problems. We have financial problems. What will we do for work?

Juliane: A woman working with three children that are young on her own. I mean a round of applause for all the single working moms out there. It’s so hard to do that alone. Then, you’ve got these multiple betrayal traumas. That impacts you emotionally, psychologically, and physically.

Anne: And they were coming from therapists. My clergy took his side. And friends, family, when I say family, I mean his family. This is not a small thing.

Juliane: No, it’s not. For me, five years out, I was still hurting. It was like the pain would come rushing forward with all the fear and insecurity. It’s a long process. I love that you gave yourself the freedom and permission to just feel your feelings.

Anne: Because I knew that feeling these emotions is important for me now. Women are strong, and they’re smart. We can think rationally through those decisions and make the right decision for you. And one of them might be, oh, I feel good. But now I realize my brain is imbalanced, and now I’m going on an antidepressant.

Juliane: Absolutely, it’s there for a reason, and it wouldn’t work if we didn’t need it. Some women need it right away because of the trauma symptoms they’re having. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, you know, the constant worry, fear and anxiety.

And I’ve also seen fear get women through that period, because of all the adrenaline cortisol pumping through their system. It kind of keeps them on high alert, and they can get through the crisis. But a year or two years out, they kind of notice they’re slipping into depression and then need some support at that time.

Anne: Absolutely. Yeah, I am not anti-medication. I just want to make that clear to everybody. Please go on it if you need it. This is where I’m at right now.

Juliane: Well, kudos to you for all the hard work you’re doing and for the place you’re in. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is taking what harmed you and turning it around. To provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. When I went through this, I never really bought into the co-dependency, co-addict model. It has impacted many women, and not for good. When I went through this, BTR helped so much.

Anne: Yeah, Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t victim blame. That’s what the current pornography recovery field misses. Is the abuse first of all. But also this bigger, wider discussion of misogyny, the Me Too movement and feminism. Like, you might be going to a therapist who buys into codependency. Not realizing it’s a form of victim blaming, which is also misogynistic. So it’s so much bigger than just, “Does he look at porn or not?”

Juliane: Absolutely, absolutely.

Anne: That’s one reason I wanted to start Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It was to talk about all these important issues in one place. Because I was not seeing that in a typical 12-step group or a typical therapist’s office. Oftentimes traditional therapy that tries to get to the heart of, “why he doesn’t feel loved” or whatever. Rather than recognizing, wait a minute, he is loved. He can’t feel love because of his misogynistic attitude. And his feelings of entitlement and those aren’t going away.

Anne: The more therapy he does, the more he feels like he’s a victim. So I always like to warn people. You don’t want to give an abuser a shovel by having him go to therapy. Where he creates a story for why he has an abusive character. Because he’s just going to dig his trench even deeper. Because we see all the time, therapy fuels his entitlements and feelings of being a victim. It makes it worse for the wife.

That’s why at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helping women be emotionally safe is the top priority. And that could look like many things.

Juliane: Right, this is a woman who is violated. And there’s no sense of safety. So safety is of the utmost importance.

Anne: Yeah, and at BTR that’s actually the bulk of what we see. That therapists don’t assess emotional safety first, and if they do, and the woman isn’t emotionally safe. They propose things like, share your feelings with the abuser. Or let’s communicate better with him, and that is dangerous.

Anne: It’s like the civil court system. A friend of mine is going through divorce with an extremely abusive man. She can’t talk to him without being psychologically abused and blamed. That sort of thing. And in court, the judge said, Look, you guys are both professional people, work it out.

Juliane: Oh, gee.

Anne: There’s no way she can work it out with him. It’s impossible. So a therapist might think, Okay, you both seem intelligent. You both seem nice, let’s work together. And you’re thinking, we can’t coordinate or cooperate about anything without me being harmed in the process. Every time I try to communicate or resolve something, I end up gaslit and taken advantage of.

Many people, lawyers, court people, clergy, and therapists, don’t have safety as the top priority. That has to be the top priority when any type of emotional or psychological abuse is involved.

Juliane: Absolutely, we can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy individual.

Anne: This is why I created The Living Free Workshop, to help women get free of abuse.

Anne: Thank you. That was fun to be interviewed for a little bit.

Juliane: Anne, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy and delight. I feel like I could talk another couple hours with you, but thank you so much. I want to applaud you for all your work and how you’re giving back to women through this podcast. And kudos to you for writing your book and giving up buckets of popcorn. I wish you all the best.

Anne: Thank you.

When victims of betrayal and emotional abuse are told things like, “If you have enough faith, God will change your husband.” Or, “You decide whether you are a victim.” These statements are a form of spiritual or new age bypass. What does spiritual bypass mean for victims of emotional abuse? Here’s what you need to know.

If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, we would love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common.

We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. I think the main issue is abusers used spiritual bypass, clergy or even therapists to build up abusers and keep victims trapped.

Tracy: Absolutely. Okay. Wow. You’re jumping right into the meat of things. Spiritual bypass is such a complex topic.

Anne: I’m interested in learning how spiritual concepts are used to abuse women. We’ll get to that a little later, but before we get to that, how can understanding what spiritual bypass means help those seeking to heal from trauma?

Tracy: I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education.

So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me.

Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me, and it was incredible. I mean, it worked immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma.

Anne: My guess is, this was the first time you knew you were in the abuse cycle. But you found out more later. The other thing you didn’t know at the time was that your husband was abusive. So this to you felt like a miracle that you could move forward and forgive. You didn’t realize that you hadn’t healed from trauma, but also that you weren’t safe.

Tracy: Right, here’s where spiritual bypass can get tricky. Because while that worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation.

Anne: Okay, that’s interesting. I can think of many examples of spiritual bypass. Something like I’m going to let Jesus solve this problem and ta da! It’s solved. Or other ways in which I’m going to turn to God. Mistaking that moment of feeling peace, which is a good thing. You needed to feel peace, and he gave you the gift of peace in that moment. But mistaking a moment of peace for the solution.

Tracy: Absolutely.

Tracy: Yeah, and I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, which was 15 years into marriage. I had very little idea that anything was going on between. I did have one small D-day, a year after the first, about a year into marriage. But again, I still did not realize what was going on.

About 15 years in, I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand.

So the second one was incredibly traumatic. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that.

Tracy: I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour.

And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And continuing to experience spiritual bypass over and over.

Anne: The other thing at the time, I’m guessing, was you did not take into account. That those 15 years you were psychologically abused continually. So you’re not just saying, I’m not going to stand for one more D-Day.

Tracy: Right, absolutely. And I didn’t know what spiritual bypass was at that point. I didn’t even stumble upon this concept until a year after that second D-Day. But this is something I knew inherently in that moment, that moment of truth, right? And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time.

This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. And I start setting boundaries right away without even knowing what a boundary was. I was never introduced to the concept, it was something that I knew.

Tracy: The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. So it actually did not help me in the context of my relationship. But it helped me personally strengthen my relationship with God. So there was good and truth that came out of that first experience for me personally.

Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. You did not feel betrayed by God then? You didn’t look back and say, Oh, he gave me the sense of peace. He gave me the ability to forgive, and that did me wrong.

Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along.

He was warning me. After that first D-day, I would pray for discernment. Oh, I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if he was lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? So I guess the spiritual bypass was coming from me.

Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I felt that uneasiness. I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. It was realizing what gaslighting was, and again, before I understood what gaslighting was, my husband interfered with my relationship with God.

Anne: That’s super cool, because that’s exactly what happens. It’s an abusive situation. Where over and over again, someone is on purpose manipulating your reality to inhibit your relationship with God on purpose. They are using spiritual bypass to manipulate as well.

Tracy: Absolutely, yeah, and that’s what it did. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And it was really weird to me because I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done.

My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason.

Anne: That’s fascinating. I had that same thing happen. I considered myself spiritual before I married. And then after I married, it was so difficult to feel that. And I’ve never thought about it in this context before. Is that one of the reasons you felt really betrayed the first time? Was because you had maybe prayed about it? Should I marry him?

And you got an answer, yes. And then you thought, why would you tell me to marry this guy? Or talk about why you felt really betrayed by God the first time?

Tracy: Yes and no, I didn’t actually get the answer, Yes. What happened was, I was careful and cautious about marrying. I didn’t want to just make a rash decision. And I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith, step into the darkness. So, you know, I said, yes.

Tracy: Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. And it’s interesting, because there were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography.

And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of just uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged.

She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours.

Because it might just come and go, or whatever, just the butterflies. And actually, I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety or whatever. So I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours.

Then I hope that means this is serious. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours, that length of time. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything to point to.

Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. He basically just talked me out of my feelings.

And basically convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work.

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It was awful. But I did briefly, just very briefly, feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer.

Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. No, he didn’t tell me exactly what, but I knew something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous.

I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way.

Anne: I think that’s a good way to look at it. I hope that women can get to that point and realize that, but it’s very, very difficult, especially if they haven’t had some of those experiences where they feel like a prayer was answered and maybe they ignored it. But I think that’s good to bring up. Thank you for sharing that part.

Tracy: I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience.

And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. What I would encourage them to think about is what did that yes actually mean? Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives.

Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, there are those books I had as a kid. I forget what they’re called. It changes your ending books.

Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change.

Things would play out. I think it’s helpful to think of life more that way. So, based on the circumstances of something right now, I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and my answer may then change if I pray again. Does that make sense?

Anne: It does. I think it also helps women to know, that because a lot of women are like, well, I need to set a boundary. And my boundary really does need to be separation right now. Because he’s so emotionally abusive that I cannot even be around him, let’s pretend. But then they’ll think back to that answer and be like, but I’m supposed to be with him.

So instead of saying, okay. I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be abused, which is a form of spiritual bypass. That’s never the answer. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, hopefully this is inspiration for you, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past.

Anne: I agree completely. For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision. I’m very, very logical. So it seemed like the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I don’t know if I would have received an answer, but I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him.

He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil.

Anne: Let’s talk about how spiritual bypass is problematic for a man exhibiting abusive behaviors.

Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day.

He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life.

He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No.

He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But it was a two steps forward, three steps back. And he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me.

But the thing is, he was never going to get to six months or a year. He was just spiritual bypass and keeping me stuck in abuse.

Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, he was exhibiting another form of spiritual bypass. He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done.

Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? This is just another example of how he used spiritual bypass. So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not.

Anne: Instead of asking the question, am I emotionally safe? A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, yeah he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week.

The question: Is he currently safe? Has to be answered by what his character currently is. Which seems to be a much safer question for victims to ask than, “Is he in recovery?”

Tracy: I agree, there is this false hope and a sense of safety, but it’s not genuine safety. It’s just a feeling of safety that we so desperately want.

Anne: I think it’s a hope of safety. Because if they’re attending a 12-step meeting and they’re attending therapy, then you’re not safe yet. But you’re hoping to be safe in soon. So instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. You’re hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future.

Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us.

Anne: Let’s say we’re not experiencing abusive behaviors. And because we haven’t been experiencing them for some time, he appears to be healthy and safe.

But we wouldn’t know unless it happened again. And at that point, you could look back and reframe what your current experience is. But until that happens, why not just enjoy the moment? And, hopefully, I’ll It never happens again, because this period of peace and safety is not a grooming period.

It’s actually that he’s changed his behaviors. I’m always concerned of these peaceful good times. How do we know if they’re another, maybe long and maybe better grooming period? Because he’s learned all this therapy speak, so he’s able to groom a little bit better than he has been before.

Tracy: Right, exactly. And in the same kind of way, When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now?

Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. I love that. Let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What you don’t believe in Jesus?”

Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse.

Anne: They’re parading what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs as legitimate. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain.

Tracy: Right, Yeah. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate.

Anne: That is a form of gaslighting. To say, You telling me how you feel about me abusing you is mean, is absolutely ridiculous. A comic on Facebook said, I’m so sad and depressed about how you’re talking about me abusing you.

Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away using spiritual bypass. Praying alone is going to work. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. But not addressing the underlying psychological issues that are at play here, that need to be addressed.

Anne: Reminds me of Luke 18, where the unjust judge says, Pray and God will help you. But he actually has the ability to hold the offender accountable. In many ways, instead of holding the offender accountable. Perhaps putting him in jail or whatever other options that that judge has for that offender, instead of doing that, he tells the victim, Pray, God will help you. When he is actually refusing to be that help, shirking his duty as a judge.

Tracy: He could be the instrument in God’s hand to help. But he’s not. So this happens often to victims as well. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive.

Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse.

Tracy: Right.

Anne: So you’re telling a victim to basically tolerate abuse and that if she doesn’t, that she’s the problem rather than the abuse.

Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse.

Tracy: My first D-Day and then my second D-Day. While it was a form of bypass that kept me stuck , I can look back on periods or instances where we recognize spiritual bypass, so we can have compassion on ourselves.

Like for example, there are times when we may be feeling just so heavy and we just really wanna break. It’s just too heavy tonight. It’s just too heavy.

I’m gonna go read my scriptures or say a prayer, ask for God to take this feeling away. Maybe listen to some uplifting music, recognizing that’s what I’m doing. It’s an intentional thing. because right now it’s just too heavy and I need this comfort. That’s not the kind of bypass that’s going to keep you stuck.

Anne: There’s never going to be anything wrong with asking God for comfort and for asking him for peace. The only thing is if you’re in an abusive situation, a moment of peace is not going to solve your problem. A moment of comfort isn’t going to solve your problem. So you can feel that comfort enough to move forward, to set a boundary, to know what you need to do.

And also for a break from the intense emotional pain. I remember I would jump up and down, like when I was praying and I would scream and yell and be like, why aren’t you doing anything about this? I was kind of thinking that there would be an instant where he Would solve it.

Anne: Most of the time, I wasn’t comforted, and I just felt terrible. My experience was like, God wasn’t even going to give me any moments of peace, because maybe he thought I would misinterpret them. So he was like, I’m going to let you be in total pain for a year and a half. And then finally the clouds lifted after I’d been separated from his physical presence for at least a year.

Many women do feel a lot of peace, even though the situation is terrible. We don’t ever have to think. Wait a minute, was that feeling of love real? Because it always is. He wants to comfort us and he wants us to feel his love. All right.

Anne: So now that we’ve covered spiritual bypass, let’s talk about new age bypass. Which is sort of this, despite your painful current circumstances, all you have to do is think differently.

Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong, especially in healing from trauma or if you’re in a dangerous situation. There’s a lot of victim blaming that can go on in this kind of teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything we feel or experience originates with our own thoughts, so that we are creating our feelings with our thoughts. That nothing is happening to us from the outside.

That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal.

So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong.

Anne: I think the biggest danger in that is that someone would think. Okay, well, if I can just think different thoughts then my reality will change without actually taking action to keep themselves safe. Have you seen that in your experience?

Tracy: Yes, let’s hit on this one.

Tracy: We create our own reality. Okay, so we’re going to debunk that. Often victims will hear. We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough.

Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. There are other people and forces around us.

There are all kinds of things that we can’t control. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way.

Anne: We’re Jedi masters, you will not look at porn anymore. Oh I will not look at porn anymore, you will not hurt me anymore, or thinking this isn’t hurting me. When it is hurting you.

Tracy: Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Recognizing that everything is not in our power, but there are some things that we can do to minimize risk.

Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe.

Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing that we’re human, recognizing that we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations in our humanity.

And so with spiritual bypass, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on how we can transcend it. We can transcend the human experience, basically. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience.

Anne: When you say transcend, what do you mean? Like, we don’t have to experience it. We can be above it.

Tracy: Basically float above it. Basically, get so good at disassociation is what it is. Learning to disassociate. And fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain.

Anne: It reminds me of a lunch I went to with this lady. She was a gratitude coach, I think, something like this. And she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “Well, gratitude is the heart of everything.”

If I just learned that if you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful for women, because if they’re stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety, is that it’s not going to help them at all.

Right, so I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, you might want to say, Oh, I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation.

Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. Exactly. So there is truth in what she is teaching. But trying to apply that broad brush, yeah, that’s not going to help women stuck in an abusive situation. Or people who have just been victimized.

Tracy: So this gratitude coach you’re talking about. This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing our emotions and feeling guilty for the negative emotions we feel. Minimizing other people’s experiences.

Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions.

When I was in serious trauma. I had a major D-Day like a month before. And I was with family, and something triggered me. Mind you, I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing.

I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children. And that was not helpful. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming.

Tracy: I felt, now, okay, so now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future”.

Anne: A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past

Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of remembrance and grieving.

Which is that second stage of healing, and that’s a long process. We have to process what has happened. We have to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. And oftentimes, we can learn great things from it.

But if we can’t we can’t or if we don’t, if that’s not part of our process, we shouldn’t shame ourselves for it. It takes a very long time, but you can’t even really make any progress in that second stage if you haven’t found safety and stability first. So, it’s basically just a, you’re making me uncomfortable with your difficult emotions, so I’m going to tell you to turn them off and pretend that, that nothing is wrong.

Anne: And move on, right? Many people say things like, it’s going to be okay. It’ll be fine. Things will work out, like, let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay.

But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault.

Tracy: Exactly. It’s more victim blaming. We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others.

So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation.

And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless.

Anne: Or that would never happen to me. Because I’ve asked the right questions, . A lot of women ask all the right questions, and they’re still victimized.

Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries.

And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again.

And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again.

Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again.

Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t.

Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? You’re saying two opposite things at the same time.

Tracy: It’s just talking out of both sides, it doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time.

Anne: There’s a lot to be said on how you perceive things. Is this going to change your reality? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is we have been perceiving that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy. Who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person.

Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? Is it true that these behaviors that I’m witnessing. Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is. Regardless of this and this, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse?

Tracy: Yes, exactly. I’m so glad that you brought that up.

Tracy: And I encounter this when, well, we just need to have, you know, positive thinking. We just need to change our outlook. I like to remind women that truthful thinking is more important than positive thinking. Sometimes, while positive thinking can be helpful, sometimes it can keep us in dangerous situations.

I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very, very sad story. And a friend wanted to pass on some of this stuff that she thought would be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, to imagine the good that can come of this. I’m like, no, that’s not going to be helpful. Please, no. That’s spiritual bypass.

That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Or, well, let’s hope for this outcome. And just think about that, focus on that, and work towards that.

Anne: What some people call hopium, this hope that he will change or can change. When you say work for the outcome you want, all women I’ve talked to, I’ve never met a woman who doesn’t feel this way.

Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome, not the worst case scenario. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce.

You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this.

Tracy: Right, well, it’s also painful. Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is.

Anne: Yeah, it’s bad. I try to tell people how bad it is, and they don’t want to know how bad it is. In talking about these new age things, like spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Like it’s all for the best, or there’s no coincidences. There might be some overlap with something called post traumatic growth, although I think post traumatic growth is something completely different.

Tracy: It is.

Anne: So let’s talk about what post traumatic growth actually is. Like, just thinking, oh, this happened for a reason (spiritual bypass). There are lessons to be learned. What would post traumatic growth mean for a victim in an actual, meaningful, useful way?

Tracy: Post traumatic growth is first of all not an escape the way spiritual bypass is. Rather than an escape, it’s an embrace of ourselves. It’s genuine self compassion. It’s coming out the other side with a new appreciation for life. Healthier relationships with others, an optimistic view of new possibilities in life. We feel stronger, we feel genuinely changed.

Anne: For me, the post-traumatic growth has helped me feel more vulnerable and more human, I guess. Truly humbled me and broken me to the point where now I feel very like equal to my other fellow humans on this earth. How has that felt for you?

Tracy: I love what you said about broken. For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it.

Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. So I’m at peace with it. And then just everything that you said, to this new humility. Where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others.

I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life.

Anne: And I think the post traumatic growth isn’t possible, the growth part with spiritual bypass. Because spiritual bypass doesn’t lead to growth.

Tracy: Spiritual bypass leads to a temporary escape. It can feel like we’ve grown, because we feel different temporarily. But our circumstances don’t change, and things are still acting on us. For me, when the trauma was so bad, I realized I’m broken. Like I’m on the floor, helpless, hitting that kind of a low,

Anne: What would you say to women who have not yet felt that post traumatic growth, and they’re in the middle of the trauma? About what their future can look like as they take the time to heal and go through the stages of grief?

Tracy: For me, my belief is that self-compassion is really opening ourselves up to feel the love of God. It’s feeling a portion of his unmitigated love for us. Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away.

Anne: Also recognizing that you literally were a victim.

Tracy: Oh, absolutely.

Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim, they can grow. But they don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal using spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Which can be exciting, but there are no shortcuts.

Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. I wrote something a couple years after a big D-day I put a trigger warning on it.

Tracy: And the trigger warning is a positive post. So I’ll just read this. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured.

For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place.

So that’s why I put a trigger warning. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing.

Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us.

Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma.

I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad.

I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of sexual betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second.

Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing.

None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey?

I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow.

Anne: That is so good. That’s how so many women feel. Although I, like I said with that lady at lunch, being grateful isn’t the solution per se, but now that I’m on the other side, I actually do feel grateful, but bypass wasn’t the solution. It’s how I feel now that I have space, that I have safety, and that I have security. I’ve been able to process things from a safe distance. Now I feel grateful.

Tracy: Right. And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass.

You know, all these things. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was not helpful at all. It was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe.

Anne: Yeah, totally.

Anne: So both of us read the book, Jesus, feminist by Sarah Bessey. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a women’s empowerment organization. And to me, that’s exactly what feminist simply means: that women have equal rights and are empowered to be independent. And live the lives that we choose, and we’re not oppressed or trapped. So let’s talk about that book, Jesus Feminist.

Anne: What you thought and how feminist can help victims overcome spiritual bypass. And the ways people are trying to get victims to use spiritual bypass or new age bypass. And how can we avoid that? Especially because so many women, and many men, have a negative reaction to the word feminist.

For some reason, I haven’t quite figured that out, and maybe because of their religious upbringing or their political views. I don’t think that it’s a political word, but some people do.

Tracy: Yeah, it’s the radical idea that women are humans too. First of all, my own experience growing up was much what you just described.

It was an absolute aversion to the word, to the point that I never did any due diligence. And even learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say.

Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist.

Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. Feminism gained popularity due to secular work and scholarship. But the line between sacred and secular is manmade, because God is the source of truth.

Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world.

No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide.

Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too.

Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously.

When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way.

Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical.

Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. Yeah, the pendulum can’t swing far enough. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough.

Tracy: I love what Sarah Bessey says, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me”

Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. She also talks about that moment on page 111. She’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma.

And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes.

And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass.

Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to think about why. I want you to consider the gas lighting that has taken place that would say feminists are bad. Who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Because I think if you think about it, you’ll realize this. This gas lighting effect by society in general and also men in general to try and say, no, women cannot be equal to men.

Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy.

Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. It took me a while to come to that. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way they like to make it work within patriarchy?

Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact.

Anne: And when you say patriarchy.

Tracy: The hierarchy, yeah. Men are legally in charge, they make the laws spiritually or religiously rather. And like, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted, as you said before, as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way.

You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either.

Even though I believe they are a creation of men. I don’t think that’s helpful. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it.

Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. And they can define these roles. And so they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. Not for other people. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. And if you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing it, let’s say in a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. This is a form of spiritual bypass.

Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work.

Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it, right. The answer is, huh, interesting. Neither of us like it that much. How will we manage these household tasks that need to be done?

Anne: The other thing I’ve been thinking of lately is that you can work and be a mom. I’m not saying you should. Many women would prefer to stay at home. We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. And if you’re talking about household tasks, many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating.

So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous.

But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do.

Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either.

Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook.

Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor. Sorry, it’s your only option.

Tracy: Right, she has these traditional household duties. Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that?

Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now.

So, has she fulfilled her own dreams, talents, and things she’s interested in? She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. She has ignored spiritual bypass that told her this is your role.

Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy.

Tracy: It is.

Anne: It can be anyone’s job.

Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care.

It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it?

If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this.

Anne: From your experience, what do you feel like is Biblical womanhood after studying this?

Tracy: It’s coming to an intimate relationship with God, with Christ, and standing in my own truth, honoring my own spiritual path.

Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before, but first of all, Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says the daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple.

He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her. And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass.

Then you’re not being the right kind of woman anymore. One more example is she talks about Mary, the mother of Jesus. On page 17, she quotes Rachel Held Evans here, but she says her worthiness is in her obedience not to a man, not to a culture, not even to a cause or religion, but to the creative work of a God who lifts up the humble and fills the hungry with good things.

Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, you should bypass painful things, right, spiritual bypass.

Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayers would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism.

Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It’s a, we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.

They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.

Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. This is spiritual bypass

Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will give you a pulpit, and we will let you speak, and we will applaud you, because it’s coming from the mouth of a woman, and she’s so spiritual.

But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged. The man has more authority, this is spiritual bypass.

Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, they complain they’re being abused and that no one is holding the abuser accountable.

That is something that is totally in line with most churches. Most churches say they do not tolerate abuse. They will not stand for abuse. Most societal people say that, right? Abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe.

Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote.

Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later, but the second wave referred to themselves as the radical feminists, and that’s who I actually identify with more. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along.

All we want is to say, men, you need to live up to the same standard. It wasn’t, we think men are awful. It was, we expect more of you. And when men resisted that, when society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem, as too extreme, as asking too much.

Anne: Yeah, so I want to encourage women listening to start getting informed about feminist issues. And consider that the best thing you can do for women is get yourself to safety and security. On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce for a second. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something.

Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or whatever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges.

I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. You can have a grownup career as an attorney or doctor. As an architect, whatever it is, just because you’re a woman doesn’t mean you need to take a low wage job.

Tracy: I agree.

Tracy: I mean, we see more women in these fields than we used to, which is good. I’m happy for that, but even still, like, I mean, I’m not even 40. As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. I remember wanting to be an architect, like all these things you named, and I wanted to be a writer.

But when it came down to it, as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. There was limitation there. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me.

I was encouraged to go to college and get an education, and I appreciate that I did that. But still, the way it was talked about, I felt great limitation. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that.

Anne: So that you can fill the measure of your creation.

Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that.

Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. This is also a form of spiritual bypass. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience.

I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to add to all of the difficulty of their situations.

Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent for so many years. And then a time comes where they need a way out, they want a way out, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. It adds so much more difficulty in getting out.

Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible.

Anne: And that’s what I want to tell women is that you might think you have lost your chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late.

Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you.

Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it says a wonderful example for your children.

Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well.

I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. And I was the one that could get a job easier at that time. It was during the economic downturn in 2008. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me.

I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do.

Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose.

We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is.

Tracy: Yes, just another reminder for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism, that feminism is not a niche. It’s not a small or a catch all if they’re not all cut from the same clock.

You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. It’s, you know, if that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word.

Anne: As we embrace the term feminist, it can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass.

This podcast more than anything is for women’s empowerment to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety.

That is what women deserve.

Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If he uses pornography, you need support. Here’s what the research tells women to do when he uses pornography. Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife.

You deserve support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your partner’s secret pornography use. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task.

Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”.

Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men with compulsive pornography use or other compulsive sexual behaviors.

Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome.

Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here.

Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here.

Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there?

Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands use pornography. When it comes to pornography use for religious men, what’s going on with their wives?

We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead.

So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad.

Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of sexual compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land.

As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery, that he uses pornography. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles.

From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through when their husband uses pornography. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process.

Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave.

Before the discovery of that, their husband uses pornography, sometimes even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her sexuality, her faith, and her relationship with God.

Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic in relation to pornography.

Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma.

They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s pornography use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret.

Their husbands were clear upfront that he uses pornography. But most of the time they let her know that this isn’t a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all the sex we want. So the desire to view pornography isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away.

Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution.

Heidi: Marriage will be the solution,yes.

Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his pornography problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first.

Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses pornography ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of her husband’s pornography use. Or the discovery of how problematic it truly was.

But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender and sexuality, and God, really influenced their understanding of pornography at this point.

Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right?

Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes.

Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful.

Heidi: That’s a good point.

Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.”

Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut.

So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders.

Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in the sexual arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing.

So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband.

Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about pornography. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified.

Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, sexual coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education about sexual coercion, rape, abuse, that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry?

There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it.

Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had had many years of pornography under their belt by the time they came to that point. And the pornography was their sex education, and there’s just a big dissonance.

Anne: Sexual abuse is their sex education.

Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy sexuality. Because many times in religions, it’s like no sex. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like.

And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the sexual relationship.

Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important, positive behaviors of sexuality. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context.

Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have sex”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison.

Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you.

Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom.

Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts.

Rebecca: A lot of them, sex was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely sexual abuse.

This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything.

Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape.

Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, physically, and sexually vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion.

They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid pornography. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship sexually would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power.

Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent.

Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have sex with him, he’s going to be angry.

Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why pornography use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation.

And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study?

Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of sexual relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no.

Anne: Well, that’s what I see too.

Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just pornography. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it.

Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no sex. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right?

Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis.

Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at pornography and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff.

And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did

She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse.

Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of sexual behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right.

Anne: There’s boundaries or something, yeah.

Rebecca: That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me.

Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances.

Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing.

Anne: She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Anne: What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now.

Rebecca: I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how sex starts to not happen as much or at all.

Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship.

So that can look like doing sexual acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways .

Rebecca: And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening. This might happen in a relationship where maybe he was honest that he viewed pornography prior to the marriage. Then he’s said in the marriage, I’ve been good.

Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes women discover pornography. Sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing pornography and masturbating. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time.

Heidi: It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine pornography as something that would appear in a magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses.

Rebecca: A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon the pornography her husband had been viewing. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers.

Rebecca: It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way.

The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is sexually engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body.

Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important.

We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or sexually compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma.

Rebecca: This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors.

When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense.

Anne: That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop.

Heidi: BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of sex with him to try to fix that.

That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery.

Anne: Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough sex.

Heidi: Right

Rebecca: So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has a pornography problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman.

There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough sex with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest.

I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her.

Rebecca: So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women.

That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame.

Anne: How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse.

Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point.

Anne: Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything.

Heidi: Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them.

Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful.

Anne: Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah.

Rebecca: So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent.

And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed.

Rebecca: Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier?

I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him?

Anne: Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere?

Heidi: I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis.

Anne: They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe?

Rebecca: I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe.

There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life.

And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard.

There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, pornography viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch pornography sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined with his viewing of pornography.

Rebecca: Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know that pornography could be such a problem. So even those women raised in a climate where pornography was tolerated still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting.

Anne: Yeah, that makes sense.

Rebecca: Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures.

Heidi: All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on.

I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband.

Heidi: Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true.

Anne: Well, and they should in that moment.

Heidi: Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real.

Anne: He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal.

Anne: I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on.

They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy.

Heidi: And that’s a big thing that we heard.

Anne: He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it.

That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they see that porn. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful.

Heidi: Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed.

Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience.

Anne: Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice.

Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it.

Heidi: Yeah, they had no comprehension.

Rebecca: Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more sex. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of sex, or whatever the sex was, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things.

Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women.

Heidi: It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses.

Rebecca: As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it.

Anne: And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety.

Rebecca: Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it.

Rebecca: And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband when he uses pornography. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God.

Heidi: Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it.

Anne: Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance?

Heidi: Right. I can’t control what has happened.

Heidi: So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, when he uses pornography, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence.

Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about pornography or sexuality, and they felt so much shame.

So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on pornography addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience.

They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and getting ahold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal.

Heidi: Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them.

Anne: Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that?

Heidi: I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations.

Anne: So it’s hit and miss.

Heidi: Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders.

Heidi: One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman.

And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed when her husband uses pornography. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden.

And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful.

And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately.

Heidi: And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage. Was as the women learned about almost anything, but especially when he uses pornography, compulsion and addiction from a scientific perspective.

Or about betrayal, relationships, or sex, or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore.

Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children.

Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement.

Heidi: So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage when he uses pornography. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse.

Anne: You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse.

Heidi: No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having sex with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right?

Anne: Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality.

Heidi: So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior.

Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency.

Anne: And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment when he uses pornography. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests.

It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think.

Heidi: Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice.

Heidi: And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave.

Anne: Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish.

Heidi: Exactly.

Anne: And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that.

They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous.

And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently.

Heidi: There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about sexual and emotional abuse, when he uses pornography. But I would say perhaps spiritual abuse is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on.

Rebecca: I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home.

Sexual abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who sexually abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about.

Anne: Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting sexual coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader.

And you need to give him sex whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, sexual harassment training?

Rebecca: While some of them have zero training,

Anne: I know.

Rebecca: That’s a part of it.

Anne: But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice.

Heidi: Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses pornography. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay.

And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer.

Anne: Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week.

Rebecca: I wanted to add that he is not only in that position, but also that a church leader encourages you to stay in a situation unsafe for you. But I think the real abusive part is where they have power over you and give you advice. Knowing that you see them as an authority. And they’re giving you advice that goes against your spiritual feelings, whatever you feel like God has told you.

So I think that subversion of your relationship with God is pretty damaging. And that to me is the most sinister part. Many times, they’re ignorant. They probably are not meant to be. putting you in an unsafe position, but their lack of knowledge harms women so much. It is problematic.

Rebecca: And they are usually the first people women go to. And sometimes the only people they talk to when he uses pornography. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else.

Anne: I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse?

What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition.

It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does.

And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know.

Anne: Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something.

Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now.

Heidi: The fifth stage is transformation, and that’s where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action. They have changed these previously held beliefs, and now they’re going to do something about it. They start to see themselves in a very different way.

In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much, when she learned he used pornography. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same.

Initially, those words felt un-fixable, like everything was broken and would never heal. And at this point, she says, nothing is the same. Speaking of her own identity and her own love for herself. The women start to feel like they can be genuine, honest, and vulnerable in their relationships. Especially with those friends they made in support groups.

They spoke about healthy sexuality and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality.

The women spoke of that. I know I want to learn about healthy sexuality. I know it’s more intimate and spiritual than what I was having in this relationship before. Most women stayed in their religion. But during the crisis, and specifically the aftermath stage, where they deconstructed some of those religious beliefs that weren’t serving them. That made them more vulnerable.

Heidi: At this point, they reconstructed a simpler belief system where religion became the scaffolding. And their relationship with God was central. So, rather than religious rituals and beliefs being the center part of it. Their relationship with God, or their spirituality is what we call it, was all based upon their relationship with God.

They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was.

A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together.

And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion.

There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors.

One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care.

Heidi: She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home.

It had no running water, no electricity and no windows. She was cold and had hardly any money. But that was symbolic to me of building herself. She loved that home and it became a safe place for her. She was able to see what she was really made of. And what she could do when she took control of her own agency. More women spoke out about their experiences. They found their voices.

They often helped other women speak out against pornography in their churches. And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that.

To have true intimacy, we have to know ourselves. They started to see life as completely different and God as completely different. And use their voices in powerful ways, and use their agency in powerful ways. That sums up that model in those five stages. But through the five stages, they align closely with many human development stages in literature, and experiential learning is learning that we never forget.

And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels.

Anne: I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. When he uses pornography, I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that.

Anne: I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman.

It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too.

Heidi: I think that’s part of the value of having groups. They can see women going through the same thing, when he uses pornography. And see, maybe a year down the road or maybe six months down the road. I’ll be in the same position she is right now. And we found that groups were a big part of what gave the women hope. Seeing, okay, if I stick with it, and if I learn about boundaries, it will be better. They could see that in the women in the same group with them.

Rebecca: And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves.

Rebecca: Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single.

For some women to trust that they could see themselves, like rebuilding a house, like the story you told Heidi, that they could take care of themselves and be happy in that future. I think that’s hard for some people to envision right in the midst of a loss. It’s such a huge loss. Because it’s not only the loss of someone you loved and devoted years of your life to. But it’s a loss of, I would say, the dream that we try to co-create with our partners.

And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about.

Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and sexual safety?

How do we learn to set boundaries when he uses pornography. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe.

Anne: My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. When they find out he uses pornography. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need.

Rebecca: Safety is the foundation for any relationship that’s going to be intimate. So if you’re intimate without safety. That’s where you can get manipulated, because you’re vulnerable. You’re right, making sure safety is first present. Otherwise, you’re vulnerable to manipulation and abuse. So having safety as the goal, it’s a great place to start for any relationship. But it is the starting point. So you can’t skip that step.

Anne: No, many people are like, Oh, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, sexually, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar.

Heidi: That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity.

Anne: I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you.

Heidi: Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women.

Anne: I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much.

Rebecca: Thank you for having us, Anne.

Heidi: And for all the great work that you’re doing.

Does your husband promise you that he will do anything to help heal your marriage from his betrayal, lies, and emotional abuse? Then then doesn’t do anything? “I fight for our marriage, but he doesn’t follow through,” said Kirsten, a member of our community.

Does this sound familiar? We’re here for you, learn about our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Anne: I have Kirsten on the podcast today. I know her personally, and she’s amazing. She’s a member of our community. She is a divorced mom of four, and she’s also an incredible artist and writer. Who likes to write to explore being a real human being breaking through destructive personal and generational patterns. And how handling hard times with humor can make life more palatable.

Kirsten strives to not take herself too seriously. To help balance out the very serious things she’s been through in her life with humor and art and other modes of coping. We’re going to talk about a phrase that she invented. I’m not going to let the cat out of the bag. I’m going to let her set up what this term is and then we’ll have a discussion about it.

So can you talk about the background of this term, first of all?

Kirsten: So a little bit about my personal backstory. I had been about 17 years into my then marriage, and we were about a year into an in house separation. And working on him trying to recover from his sex addiction. And me trying to recover from 17 years of long term premeditated and fairly disturbing mind games and lies and betrayals.

Kirsten: We were doing an in house separation, and he said that he would do anything to fix the damage that was happening in our marriage. And I believed him. I wanted to believe him when he said he would fight for our marriage. One night he came down from his bedroom that he was staying in and asked me when I would drop my boundary of him Not being able to initiate any physical touch in our marriage.

I reminded him that he had not followed through with the task that he’d been given by his therapist and by our religious leader. That my personal therapist had suggested that I may even need some really specialized sex therapy to be able to heal. To get back to that point where I’d be comfortable being physically intimate with him.

He asked me how long it would take for me to do this healing. And I said, I don’t, I don’t know. Six months? A year? I don’t know. He let me know that that was too long. That my boundary was impeding his recovery. So, that’s kind of when I knew that that marriage was over.

I’m a pretty visual thinker. I’m an artist. I have a brain full of all kinds of ridiculous cultural references. When he said that, I could see in my head this video and song that came out in the early 90s from this rocker, Meatloaf.

Kirsten: He did this ridiculous video called, I will do anything for love. And I could hear his voice in my head. You know, I can do anything for love, but I won’t do that. I just started laughing and walked out of the room. I’m sure that it appeared very rude to him, but I just, the ridiculousness of it. You know, 17 years of really awful behavior and damage, and he couldn’t give me this. This one thing that I was asking for him to do.

I’m in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, and one day a woman said her partner was not going to do the thing that she had asked him to do. To be able to receive healing in their marriage. That came back to my head and I said, Oh, he’s Meatloafing you.

Of course, you know, I often forget that I’m one of the older members of the community. You probably have to be over maybe 35 to kind of get that reference right away. But he said, what are you talking about? And I said, don’t you remember that song by Meatloaf? I’ll do anything for love, but I won’t do that.

And that just started a whole entire thing of hilarity where we made up memes about Meatloaf and what he would and wouldn’t do. It was fun. And we need the laugh, quite frankly, things can get quite heavy in the community at times. They are all saying I will do anything to fight for our marriage, but in reality won’t do what it actually takes. But it’s a really appropriate term to describe the way that sometimes when addicts try to keep all the things.

Kirsten: Why wouldn’t they? They have a loving partner and a family, they’re taking care of all their stuff. Then on the side, they also have their addiction and whatever life they’ve built around that. They’ll say, “I want to fight for our marriage.” To be able to try and protect that dual life and that addiction.

So you can’t really listen to the things they say. You know, I mean, this meatloaf song is like eight minutes long. It’s ridiculous. I mean, he just goes on and on and on about all these things that he’ll do for her. He’ll go to hell and back. He’ll do, you know, I mean, it’s just, the video is hilarious. And not to mention that, by the way, he’s a monster in the video, but when she gives him love, he turns into a man.

Anne: Oh, wow. The Beauty and the Beast. scenario. Does it ever say what the thing he won’t do is?

Kirsten: Well, in actuality, of course, the song doesn’t really mean that. Because what he means is he won’t cheat on her. He won’t forget her feelings. He’ll do all these things. And then she comes in on her verse and she says, are you gonna cheat on me?

Are you gonna hurt my feelings and break my heart? And he’s like, I won’t do that. So in actuality, the song’s not really as bad as it sounds when we made the meme out of it. But you know, we all have that line in our head from the song, if we’re old enough.

Anne: Yeah, I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that. A woman in our community, she got her young daughter’s ears pierced in like January? And I don’t know, four months later or something, she sent her daughter to her ex’s house. They were these really expensive stud earrings. And he lost one of the earrings and then he wrote this email that was like this five paragraph manifesto about how could they improve communication and what could he do, “To fight for our marriage?”

He would do anything to help out, you know, that kind of a thing. She wrote back and said, pay $20 for Sophie’s earring. He wrote this big rant about how he never consented to her getting her ears pierced. There was no way he was going to pay for the earring. But he didn’t bring that up back in January when she had her ears pierced.

So he was like, I will do anything, but there’s no way I’ll pay $20 for a lost earring. And it’s funny the things that they won’t do. When they say, “I want to fight for our marriage.” Well, they won’t do what they don’t want to do is the thing.

Kirsten: Right. You know, when you speak about serious breaches in trust and contract of a partnership, which, most of our members are married and their partnership is a marriage and, you know, the onus of healing, the broken trust is on the person that broke the trust.

Kirsten: So, as the offended partner begins their healing process. And they start to gather their strength and their dignity back around them. Also they have a community that builds them up, they learn about boundaries and they start to put those in place. They’ll begin to set healing tasks and limits on the allowed behaviors for that offending partner.

This is not an attempt to control the partner, this is their attempt to try and stay in the relationship. This is their attempt to “Fight for our marriage.”

Anne: To establish some safety.

Kirsten: Exactly. I mean, because they’ve now realized. That all these things have gone on. My first reaction when I found out the true depth of the betrayal, that had happened in my marriage, was to just leave.

I was done right then. But my attempt to be able to feel safe enough to wait to give him some time to heal and fix his problem. Was to have boundaries in place. That’s the only way I could stay. I wasn’t trying to control him as a person. I just needed that. You know, I needed that for myself. I wanted to fight for our marriage.

Oftentimes the offending partner will profess with all kinds of words, all the things that they’re willing to do. They feel so bad. I’ll do anything I can to fix this. But when they’re actually put to the test, they refuse to engage. They refuse to follow through. That just goes to show you that the old adage that you watch their feet and not their mouth is true.

Anne: Like the, I would do it if you wouldn’t bother me about it. You’ve heard that one before.

Anne: Where they’re like, I was about to do it, but now that you reminded me, I won’t be doing it on my own. So just let me do it in my own time.

Kirsten: I don’t like it when you act like my Mom. You’re taking my dignity away. Let me do this in my own time.

Anne: In their own time is never. They’re only saying that to avoid doing the thing.

Kirsten: Why should they get to do anything in their own time? They’re the one that broke the contract. They’re the one that broke the trust. They are the one’s who should fight for our marriage. They really should do anything. I mean, you know, within reason. Most of the women in our community are pretty healthy people. They’re not trying to use this as an opportunity to control their spouse or their partner.

Anne: No, they’re looking for safety and they’re looking for truth. In your situation, did you ever consider your situation to be abuse while you were in this place of knowing about his sexual behavior. But thinking maybe he could get into recovery when you’re kind of thinking of him as an addict?

Was there ever a time where you were like, wait a minute, I was abused this whole time?

Kirsten: No, it never really crossed my mind. See, one of the things about my situation is I was married before this marriage, very shortly. For 18 months and it was a very abusive, destructive marriage. So to me, anything that wasn’t that was better.

Anytime I start to feel like something might be wrong or my body was like, Oh, I’m uncomfortable. If I would bring it up to my spouse. He would say, yeah, you’re right, something is wrong, you need to go to therapy because you’re broken from your first marriage. I became the kind of person that would just completely take all of it in on myself.

I was sure that everything that was wrong in our marriage was my fault. It wasn’t until I was in my therapeutic disclosure, and this is after a surprise dump disclosure, I thought I knew everything. But after a therapist had helped lead him through. all the things, which, you know, turned in from a five page thing to ten page disclosure.

When I heard some of the very specific things that he did that were so twisted that my brain starts to say, wait a minute, only crazy people do this. Like abusive, crazy, like you see in the lifetime movies, kind of people. Even then, it still took me a good year, year and a half to accept the fact that I was actually severely abused for many, many years.

Anne: Why do you think it’s so easy? Well, not so easy, but easier for women to recognize abuse when they’re in a relationship, like your first marriage? Where the abuse was really obvious compared to how long was your second marriage?

Kirsten: By the time the divorce went through, we’d been married for 20 years.

Anne: So compared to the second marriage, that was 20 years where the whole time, You’re in this fog of abuse, but you can’t see it, and you’re trying to wrap your head around what’s going on. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to see this second type of abuse?

Kirsten: Well, I’ve never considered myself a person that could be abused.

I’m not stupid or weak. I’m quite sassy and strong willed. I never thought that anything like that could ever happen to me, and it was very subtle. Very, very subtle and not only that, but I grew up in a family and in a religion where I was groomed. Some people don’t like that term, but it’s true. To turn over my knowing and my will to the patriarch of the home, the husband, the leader of our church, that’s what a good woman does.

So my natural ability to kind of say, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Just over the years really was squashed. So, you know, never in my brain until like a therapist or a podcast or something would say, Hey, this behavior is abusive. Would I ever think, Oh, you’re right. Putting that label on it, which seems extreme to a lot of people and they really kick against it was enough to clear my brain up from the fog to start to look for more truth.

Anne: Yeah, you mentioned a lot of people kick against the term abuse, especially within the context of sex addiction. Why do you think so many people are unwilling to say, if you’re in a relationship with an active sex addict or an active porn user, you are in an abusive relationship? It is an abuse issue.

Anne: Why do you think so many people don’t want to go there?

Kirsten: Well, there’s a lot of shame around anything that has to do with sex. People don’t like to talk about sex. They don’t want to be real about sex. They certainly don’t want to talk about anything that has to do with abusive behaviors and sex. The level of shame will make it so people don’t want to talk about it at all.

Let alone slap a label of abuse on it. There’s all this cultural misogyny. That a woman should do what her spouse wants her to do. Her needs should be subservient to her spouse’s needs. Even things like a woman shouldn’t enjoy sex, or she shouldn’t have to worry about feeling safe because it’s just a duty that needs to happen in a marriage.

With all this cultural baggage and all these things generationally that we’re dragging with us as women, it’s just something that we wouldn’t even consider unless it’s, you know, a violent rape, say. You know, but in a marriage context, I mean, we’ve had women in the community that didn’t even realize until they heard somebody else talk about it. That they actually were raped in their own marriage, when I had that experience.

And you just don’t understand what’s going on. You have no context or words for it. You don’t have the vocabulary for it. We weren’t taught that until you get into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and learn . The verbiage that you need to be able to start clarifying those things in your head.

Anne: What helps you realize you were raped? I’m guessing multiple rapes.

Kirsten: Well, yeah multiple times. I didn’t understand my body’s fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. I didn’t understand the trauma response. So, I didn’t recognize that those times when I didn’t want to be there doing what he wanted. I would just leave my body so that I could make it through it.

That that was something that would be considered a rape. And there was one specific situation that involved a big production that he had put together almost like a movie. A play that he wanted me to play out. With notes and letters and this big thing where I had to go here and do this and then here and do that. And da da da and ended up in a hotel room and it was a horrendous experience for me.

Somebody had mentioned, hey, this thing happened to me, I think I was raped by my husband. And I was like, wait, rape? That’s rape? And it just hit me. I was like, that is what I was experiencing that night. I left my body so I wasn’t there, and let him do what he wanted to do. But I didn’t want to be there.

I had not given consent for that experience. But I didn’t know how to say no. I didn’t know I could say no.

Anne: Yeah, and for someone who thinks they’re entitled, to sex from their wife because she is an object or she is subservient, then asking for consent is not even on the table either.

Kirsten: Right. If you’ve lived most of your marriage in a place of trauma where you didn’t ever speak up and say, I don’t like this or no, I’m not doing that.

In my case, my then spouse considered that I was into it. You know, he never stopped to question that I might not enjoy it. And he was so good at building up fantasies in his head that he wouldn’t probably have seen or cared to see, that I wasn’t really fully giving consent.

Anne: We have so much that we’ve learned through these experiences and hopefully sharing it can help other women

Kirsten: Yes, and when you learn that, you need things to help you be brave. You need a community around you of women who understand what you’ve gone through. No one has to try and explain everything to them because they already know.

You need people that you can laugh with. I mean you can’t just go over to your next door neighbor and make a joke about marital rape. You can’t do that. It’s totally inappropriate. But sometimes we need to laugh. The absurdity of our situations will hit us. And it’s all you can do. I mean, if you can’t laugh, you’ll die.

If you need to be able to have that picture of Meatloaf singing in your head. While your spouse is trying to give you all the reasons why he can’t do this one thing that you’ve asked him to do. To try and fix the damage that he did, to be able to help you get through that without going crazy, you need that. He’s saying I want to fight for our marriage, and you can see through his actions that he’s not going to.

Anne: Kirsten is an incredible artist and I want her to talk about her art. And how that has helped her process her trauma and heal from what she has been through.

I had the opportunity to go to her art show with my Mother. We spent, I don’t know, maybe two hours. We spent so long there because every single painting was so touching to me. I read the descriptions and I just sat and pondered it. We didn’t want to leave. We just wanted to stay there and it was one of the best experiences I’ve had viewing art. It really spoke to me, and helped me process my own trauma.

Having had that experience with your art, able to view it and process my own trauma and interpret it in different ways. Can you talk about your art and what it means to you and how it helped you?

Kirsten: You know, sometimes we think, Oh, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know what was happening to me. I have all this trauma stored up in me and I didn’t know how to process it. But the human mind is incredibly flexible and, you know, very able to defend itself against trauma in any way that it can. For me, a way that I didn’t realize, I was doing that before I find out anything about what was happening in my marriage was through art.

Kirsten: I was processing the things that were happening in my life through art. I initially had gone to school to be a children’s book illustrator. That’s what I thought I wanted to do. I love that still, but I found myself being drawn to doing a lot of really angsty and introspective self portraits. I laugh sometimes because I think, what am I, a narcissist?

That word is thrown around a lot. I just keep painting myself over and over and over again. I don’t know if you know anything about the artist Frida Kahlo, but she did a lot of self processing through her art as well. A lot of self portraits. I don’t know if I would say that I’m as amazing as she was. But she’s kind of my guide as far as just going ahead and doing what your heart tells you to do as an artist.

The first self portrait that I did was right after my first divorce from my 18 month marriage, and it was surprising to me how cathartic it was to paint the feelings I was feeling. To get them out onto this canvas. That continued through the years. My entire getting married again, being a young mother, and through a very toxic marriage.

I would do these self portraits. Usually, I would have a dream, and the image would be in my head when I would wake up. Then I would go through the process of doing sketches, taking pictures, preparing the work and then making it. I’d always feel better afterwards. I didn’t really realize what I was doing.

Kirsten: Now looking back and having had so much education about , abuse and learning more about trauma and what it does to the body and the brain. I realized that I was releasing a lot of trauma into my paintings. In fact, sometimes I laugh and call my paintings horcruxes because I feel like I’ve cut a piece of my soul out and put it into the painting.

But usually the things that I leave in the painting are things that are good to be leaving. So it’s just a really important way for me to journal my life, to express my feelings and to get something out of my soul.

Anne: I’d like to talk about a couple of specific pieces, if you don’t mind. One of them is this incredible painting of you in a nightgown with a halo in a dirty bathroom.

I really wanted to talk to you about this because I have had so many dirty bathroom dreams. Where I’m in like a stall, the toilet’s overflowing. There’s dirty water on the ground, the sink is overflowing, and it’s just disgusting. I have to figure out how to go to the bathroom in there. This is a recurring dream that I’ve had. And when I saw this painting, I was like, this is straight out of my dream.

I don’t know if this was one that you had a dream about as well. There’s also a chicken in it and a candle.

Kirsten: This was the first painting that I did after my therapeutic disclosure that I went through with my now ex husband and our therapist. When I wanted to fight for our marriage.

Kirsten: In which I heard all the things, all the things that had been happening in my marriage for 17 years. I had read online a call for entry to a show in which they were asking people to do theme specific artwork. It was for a gallery that was in LA and the name of the show was Waterline. They wanted women artists to do works about water and its effect on their lives. I never enter a show that isn’t local, I wanted to be brave.

I kind of had my fists up in a fighting mode after finding out all these awful things. And so I was thinking about what I could do for the show if I was going to enter it and I had a dream that night.

That I was in a old, dirty and for me it wasn’t a bath, it was actually, an abandoned psychiatric hospital. Like from a horror movie, you know, with broken tiles and the old school look of the industrial in the 20s and 30s and drains and yucky, dirty water everywhere. I was, covered in mud with the lines from floods.

You know, when there’s a flood, how it leaves a line of debris on whatever, the building or the edge of the creek or something. There’s a flood and they’ll leave these lines and each line, you know, progressively went up what was representing different traumas that I’d been through in my life. The fight for our marriage, was in those flood lines.

Kirsten: It was as if I was there, you know, the, the image already existed. It was created, if you will, spiritually in my head that night. I got up the next morning and I ran to the thrift store and I found a nightgown and I went outside and started dumping myself in mud so that I could take photos to, to draw from for this painting.

And just the process of actually preparing the reference photos, getting this nightgown muddy, getting my arms muddy, taking the pictures was incredibly important to me. It would, if anybody filmed it, be considered a piece of performance art that went along with the painting. But you know, it was a private experience and not something that I wanted documented for everybody to see.

Then when I start putting the imagery together, I had to include a chicken because I love chickens and they’re my girls. So don’t try to ask me to explain it, but the chicken’s like my spirit guide. So that was one of my hens, Penny, my hen, and she was in the painting.

I also included a prayer candle, like you would find in a Catholic church at the altar, I like to use a lot of old Renaissance imagery in my artwork. I just like it. So I put a halo around myself because I felt like not toot my own horn or anything, but sometimes when you go through really traumatic experiences. Especially when they last for a long time, it changes you.

Kirsten: Those experiences can be sanctified by your healing. You kind of feel like these old saints, you know, there’s a saint for everything in the Catholic church. There’s a saint for everything. A saint for moving, a saint for people that drown in water, a saint for being killed by an arrow on the back of a wagon.

I mean, anything that you can think of. And, and I’m like, yeah, I feel like I’m the saint in my fight for our marriage, toxic marriages or something. So that’s why I included that imagery and it just came pouring out of me. I got the painting done really quickly. I sent it to the show. It did very well there. I’ve won several awards with it. It’s kind of like an icon for me.

Anne: St. Kirsten

Kirsten: Yeah, right..

Anne: Yeah, it was very, I don’t know if shocking is the right word that I would use for me. But because it just spoke to me so deeply of the imagery that I had experienced in my dreams. It’s interesting that the experience of this type of abuse, the details are all different for every woman, but this feeling of we were almost drowning in someone else’s filth.

In a place where we should be safe. Like, yours was a psychiatric hospital. That’s a place where someone should be helping you. You know, technically. In a bathroom, it should be somewhere that you feel safe enough to just, you know, relax, I guess. But instead of that, you’re drowning in someone else’s filth. It is kind of a sanctifying experience.

Kirsten: It leaves marks on you. And those marks don’t go away. They can be transformed, but they don’t go away.

Anne: The title is Flood Damage and that really, really looks like that. It was amazing. There were so many, like every single one I could talk about. Especially your, what are the ones called, Japanese ones, where you put yourself back together with gold?

Kirsten: Kintsugi

Anne: Those really spoke to me. But the second one I’d like to really focus on is called Unequally Yoked. So this is a painting of Kirsten with a yoke and she is yoked on one side.

Kirsten: Yes, yeah. I have my neck in one side of the double yoke.

Anne: Okay. Yeah. And the other one is just empty and she’s pulling this by herself. This one too, it just, I mean every one of your paintings just hit me at my core. But this one I spent so much time just observing and thinking about and processing my own things. Can you talk about this one a little bit?

Kirsten: I did this painting, it’s probably my favorite painting that I’ve ever done, by the way.

It really speaks to me still. I did it in 2018. I was divorced and just start to get back into trying to date. It was a vulnerable time for me. There was a lot of heaviness and loneliness at that time. And again, I’m not quite sure why this happens, but I had a dream about this painting and woke up with the image in my head already.

Kirsten: So I couldn’t find a yoke to make the painting. When I did the reference photos, I put a very heavy beam of wood over my shoulders so that I could get that sense of weight and heaviness. I just have so much grief over the fact that I had two partners who were supposed to be my forever companion. In which that didn’t happen, and not only did it not happen, but I carried the brunt of the emotional work. I carried their shame. It was my fight for our marriage, and they didn’t try.

Now I carry the weight of being a single mom and trying to deal with the damage that’s happening to my children. I just felt it so heavily. I think that it just needs to come out in this image. And you know in the scriptures, Jesus talks about a yoke and he says that his yoke is is easy and his burden is light. That if you’ll yoke yourself to him, you can make it through the things in life.

But the yoke also connotes being tied to something. When you yoke yourself to something, that double yoke of the ox and team, you can’t move unless they’re moving. And if they don’t move, you have to drag them. So there was a lot of feelings and symbolism in that for me. Then I put fig leaves around in the background to kind of represent some things that I feel about partnership, the Garden of Eden and that story of creation.

Kirsten: Then I also added a, a wedding ring in the background. To symbolize the fight for our marriage. I had a ton of feelings come out while I was painting this painting. Many times I actually had to stop and put it away because I would just start crying and I couldn’t see the panel I was working on.

I would just have to put it away. But I think you can feel that when you look at the painting. One of the cool things about seeing artwork in life as opposed to just a picture online. You can really feel the feelings that were poured into a piece.

Anne: That is what is incredible about excellent art, is that you painted it and put in the work. But it seemed like it was painted just for me. And for all the members of our community who can imagine that feeling of being unequally yoked, and then having to carry the burden of the lack of a partner. We fight for our marriage, and they leave us alone.

I really appreciate your art and your talent. And so many women have gone through this and they’re, so incredibly talented and you are one of those amazing talented women. Here is her website so you can look at the paintings yourself www.kirstenbeitler.com

Anne: I would really encourage you to go take a look at her artwork. Hopefully it will speak to you as it spoke to me. Can you talk a little bit about how the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group has helped you to heal?

Kirsten: Absolutely. This community, this idea of community and sisterhood is one of the things. I’m not exaggerating that I say actually saved my life and my sanity. It started for me when I don’t know how this happened. I wasn’t looking for it, I was just online looking how to fight for our marriage, and then suddenly it was there in front of me.

It was a tender mercy from God. The loving compassion I felt because you all knew exactly what I was going through. I didn’t have to say anything or do anything. I am enfolded in love.

And from those groups came some of the best and truest friends that I’ve ever had in my life. They saved me. They walked with me through horrendous things. And I’ve been able to be there for them too.

Finding BTR filled so many holes in my heart because I didn’t feel like a freak anymore. I didn’t feel alone. There was at least one woman whose story was so similar to mine that I knew, okay, this isn’t just because of me. This isn’t just because of how broken I am. This is happening to other people too.

It was such a relief. It was such a relief to me. Not that you would ever want anybody to go through that, like you did, but just to know that it’s not because of you. I’m always grateful for the BTR community where something horrible is turned into something holy.

Anne: Yeah, it’s amazing how much our Shero community has evolved over the years. We’ve all evolved together to be like, that didn’t work, right? Like, Oh, he may be an addict. There’s no question about that. But what we were experiencing the entire time was abuse. We didn’t know that back then. Sometimes we fight for our marriage, and don’t realize how much we are suffering.

It’s so nice to come out of the fog and be able to define it and help other women so that they don’t have to go through the, you know, 10, 20 year process, seven, however long it was process of figuring that out. Figuring out how long to fight for our marriage.

Kirsten: Oh my goodness. And thousands and thousands of dollars worth of therapy and agony.

Anne: The cool thing is because we’re all together now and because we’re continuing our healing journey together. We are still evolving and we still don’t know what we don’t know, right? We still are there for each other and when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany.

You know, it’s like, oh, why didn’t we think of that before? So it’s a really amazing community to be a part of, to see it evolve. Because our true desire is for safety, truth and peace. We are evolving to be more gentle with each other and more kind and more understanding. Yet also more fierce in our boundaries and more fierce in our belief in ourselves and what we deserve and that we are worth it.

So it’s, it’s a mix of like, amazing bravery and also this incredible vulnerability at the same time. That to me is just the most amazing army of healthy women who can help bring other women out of the fog of abuse.

Kirsten: Absolutely. You know, none of us are perfect. We’re all still learning. We’re learning from each other every day. There are so many people that have so many different opinions about everything, but still working together. To try and clear everybody’s mind, you know, “Should I fight for our marriage?” We can come out healed, and it can happen, and it does happen every day.

Anne: Well, thank you for sharing parts of your story and some of your talent, especially with your Meatloaf metaphors. And your, “fight for our marriage.” You’re amazing, Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Have you spent endless hours and countless efforts trying to find a therapist that knows and understands what you’re going through? Because the best betrayal trauma recovery groups are available online to help you. Read what Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Clients have to say about their experiences.

Anne: Women frequently, write to me about how they feel. Also what they’re going through, what they think of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and how grateful they are for my podcast and the services at BTR.ORG.

So today I’m going to share some of these messages with you. I’ll be reading them and then I also received some audio recordings from women so I’ll be playing those for you.

If you’d like to come on the podcast and talk to me, I would love to talk to you. So please come share your experience with me. If you want to do that, email [email protected]. Or if you’re shy and you want to share, but you don’t want to talk to me, (I don’t blame you if you don’t want to talk to me:), you can use voice recordings on your phone and email it to [email protected]. and then I can share it on the podcast anonymously.

It means so much to me to hear from you. I’m so honored to listen to your story and share that space with you. It warms my spirit to hear from you. It keeps me going. So thank you.

Anne: Let’s start with an audio recording I received.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #1: When I finally found BTR, my husband and I had spent over 10 years and $10, 000 in and out of couples counseling. Even though my husband was unfaithful, used pornography, and chronically masturbated. They looked at our issues as a, “couple problem”. The multiple therapists we saw had years of experience. But they knew nothing whatsoever about betrayal trauma, sexual integrity issues, addiction, or emotional abuse involved.

In fact, my husband was able to successfully gaslight one therapist to the point where he told me. That if I would become a, “safe person,” my husband would quit lying to me. I bet you can guess the result.

Yep, my husband lied to me again, and again, and again. In fact it was never about me. So thankfully, everything turned almost on a dime the day I read an article on gaslighting from BTR. This was one of the biggest aha moments of my entire life. Overall it was almost as if I could hear the angel singing in the background as 26 painful years of fog began to lift.

Client #1 continues: I immediately set up a coaching appointment with one of the BTR Coaches. Then for the first time ever found someone who got it immediately. I didn’t have to convince her, educate her, or prove a thing. She understood exactly what I was going through. Because she had been there too.

After years and years and thousands of dollars spent on traditional therapy, I finally found someone who understood exactly what I was going through! She named it, educated me, and provided the support and contagious courage needed to become empowered to stop the abuse.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #2: These groups of amazing women represented different stages of discovery and grief cycles. We came from various backgrounds and bonded together to find solutions to the challenges women face.

After the initial shock of disclosure and abuse, when we were unable to make sense of reality. When I recognized that the feelings attached to the experience of trauma are universal in nature. But there are some unique heightened and very personal pain points around this particular addiction. I was able to sort out truth from fiction and find coping tools.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #3: I was desperate for help and searched the internet for answers. Then I came across info on gaslighting. So this is what I’d been experiencing in my marriage for 26 years. And there’s a name for it! It was literally a mind blowing revelation for me that led me to the BTR website where I went on a podcast binge.

I listened to everything I could get my hands on. Then the fog of gaslighting began to lift. And with the help of one of the coaches, I gained the courage to set some significant and appropriate boundaries. Honestly, I thought I had had a pretty good handle on the subject and didn’t expect to learn much more.

Was I ever wrong! What I thought I knew about gaslighting was only a drop in the bucket. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups were very informative and practical with examples. Also in a safe situation with feedback and encouragement. If you’ve been betrayed, chances are gaslighting is a significant part of your story as well.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #4: These aren’t your cookie cutter Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups with an unmovable agenda. There isn’t one way to approach the challenge of boundaries. Sex addiction is real. So treat yourself to this healing experience. Transcend the past, move past the crazy, and stand in your own truth in sisterhood.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #5: The BTR community is amazing. Because in the support groups, everyone gets it. There’s no judgment. They don’t re-traumatize you like some therapists do. I truly feel that everyone who participates validates our experience. They offer very helpful feedback and suggestions.

Everyone is a wealth of information. Additionally I get great resources, all sorts of different pieces that I would not have necessarily found on my own. Also I appreciate that people will share what has worked and also what hasn’t worked for them.

I really appreciate the ease of use. Because there are many different times during the day. That you can connect with the coaches and with other group members.

Client #5 continues: The response is really quick if you want to make an appointment. You don’t have to wait, and you don’t have to travel. You can do it from your computer. Especially for women with kids, the ability to quickly get an appointment and not have to find a babysitter. You can, you know, toss a movie in for an hour and get your needs met.

Get that validation and that help that we’re all so, so searching for. So I strongly suggest people try it. The fee is nominal. It’s much less than you’re ever going to find anywhere else. You can use as many groups as you want during the month, and I think it’s probably the best investment you can make in your healing from betrayal trauma.

I’m a huge fan and I love the style, the program and the model.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #6: BTR has been such a validating and positive experience. The process has given me the courage to face some of my demons regarding triggers. It has also given me clarity about my next steps and ideas about how to improve my relationship. I have a clearer idea of how I want to integrate this whole nightmare into my life in a really positive way.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #7: BTR has been life changing for me. It challenged me out of my comfort zone, and encouraged me to make the hard choices for the betterment of my family, and out of love for myself. I’ve been deeply impacted by hearing of the other ladies struggles and victories. As well as being able to learn from their stories and journey.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #8: When I was first introduced to BTR, my world had turned upside down. I was lost in overpowering emotions. The BTR coaches guided me to discover peace and advocate for myself. Thank you for Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions and for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I have found a place of healing and strength.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #9: Thank goodness I found BTR.ORG! The coaches are just wonderful. I was really desperate when I found BTR because I was fed up after going to three therapists in a row who didn’t get it.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups are so fulfilling themselves, but the individual sessions with the coaches are also wonderful. Everybody is so kind and and helpful and gives me a lot of hope about what I’ve been going through. Thank you.

Anne: Here’s one from a woman in Colorado.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #10: He was charming, handsome, and a doctor from three generations of physicians.

I had a nice job with two great sons. My life was full. I didn’t see it coming. Things started out great, slowly transforming into emotional game playing, crazy making, and gaslighting. I was blind to his pornography addiction, and abuse until he had a heart attack and couldn’t hide it anymore.

After strategic planning to get to emotional safety without family or a support system, the emotional turmoil and trauma came tumbling out. I’ve spent hours of therapy and reading to research my own issues of letting go. This has been my life for the past six years. I finally found BTR and it has been my lifeline. I write this with much gratitude and appreciation.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #11: I just happened to find The BTR Podcast in the midst of finding out my spouse had been lying and cheating. Again, actually number six that I know of. During the deepest, darkest moment of my life. Words can’t express how listening to the podcast truly saved my life.

It made me feel like there are others out there. I wasn’t alone. The words of encouragement, education, support, and knowing that the situation is for real. I wasn’t crazy, it was so comforting. After searching the BTR site, I noticed BTR had services that could help me personally. I decided now was the time and attended my first Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

Words truly can’t express how this experience helped in my life. I also joined Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Each story and experience shared was helpful. From the others touch my life in so many ways. I received so much encouragement, education, and knowledge from other women. It will forever be a part of my life.

I wish I would have found BTR sooner, but I know it was simply in God’s timing to bring this organization into my life. I look forward to continuing individual sessions. Thank you, BTR and Anne for everything.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #12: BTR helped me to calm down and refocus away from my problems and onto finding a genuine solution so that I can move forward.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #13: BTR coaches are in tune with the needs of victims, learning about them and intuitively recognizing details. And proactively offering creative and innovative solutions.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #14: BTR Group Sessions provide support, validation, empowerment, education, organization, consistency, safety, confidentiality, respect, kindness, acceptance, and love.

I don’t use those words lightly! BTR Group Sessions and all of BTR has been a lifeline for me that is indescribable. Thank you so very much. I like the fact that I can get help from home. As I am unable to travel outside the home. The coaches provide helpful feedback, insightful feedback. They are knowledgeable, kind, patient, and have helped me to stay grounded in reality.

The group members provide much needed community and validation. BTR has been a godsend that I can share what I’m going through with other women that understand. It’s amazing.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #15: Hello, Ann. I just felt I needed to send you a letter of encouragement and gratitude. I heard about BTR through one of my dear friends. That I met doing an intensive with her sex addicted husband.

After the five day intensive, I felt confused and alone, especially when I came home to our small town with no support. I followed the 12 Step program and joined a program with our church. Then the leaders shut it down. I wanted so badly to recover, but I had no support group until I found you, and BTR!

My marriage had been so painful and so crazy. I had no idea what gas lighting was, or that I was in a full on abusive relationship. My boundaries and self worth were low. Even though I presented myself as strong and confident. I lost my voice. Since finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups and the amazing BTR coaches, I’ve grown and discovered my inner strength and true voice.

Thank you for what you are doing. Also thank you for the love and time you pour into this ministry. You are a beautiful, glorious woman, and I hope to meet you in person someday.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #16: I stumbled across BTR and fortunately attended a Group Session. And was privileged to enter one of the, emotionally, safest places ever held for me. Since my world was turned upside down.

The time I have shared with BTR since has been filled with compassionate truths. And an endless amount of space and safety. The times I have felt the most alone and afraid, the BTR coaches assured me that I am no longer walking through this journey alone.

You provide personalized recommendations that fit me so perfectly. And tailor information to fit the individual client. Thank you. You have changed my life.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Groups Session Client #17: I was told about my husband’s sexual addiction in 2015. We sought professional help right away. He seemed to be in recovery. But it wasn’t until the summer of 2018 when I discovered BTR. I finally heard someone describe what I was living through as gaslighting! And there was something I could do about it. I’m not typically a person to sign up for things. But after listening to the BTR podcast, I recognized I had more to learn.

I scheduled an individual session with a BTR coach. I realized my husband had not been sober and I had been emotionally abused. Then during a critical period, just before my husband moved to actively cast me off and discard our marriage. During the period when he rapidly ramped up abusive behaviors. The BTR coaches were there with me with incredible empathy and profound insight.

Client #17 continues: In a few hours, they validated my pain and taught me more about gaslighting than most people would know in a lifetime. They helped equip me to manage a situation that was about to rapidly unfold. Unlike beginning with a new therapist, I didn’t have to spend hours giving background. The BTR Coaches already understood what was going on in my heart and in my home.

Gaslighting, DARVO, and emotional abuse were huge topics that had not been addressed in traditional counseling. Also, the podcast covered topics that I found extremely helpful. I listened, pausing, jotting notes, then printing the transcripts of some episodes. This material deeply resonated with me and I used parts of it as a script to identify what I needed for safety.

Thank you for what you do. You are making a difference.

Anne: I am so grateful for the women who are brave enough to share their insight and to send their stories. Thank you for being a part of our community. I’m always looking for victims stories . If you’d like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email me at [email protected]. The more we can share and get stories like this out into the light, the more it helps all victims everywhere.

If your in-laws enable emotional abuse, you’re not alone. Tragically, this is an extremely common occurrence for victims. Tanya shares her heartbreaking story of living through financial, physical, and emotional abuse – all while her in-laws enable her abuser.

If you need live support, learn about our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Anne: I have a member of the BTR community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Tania. I recorded this a few years ago.

Welcome, Tanya.

Tanya: Thank you so much for having me.

Originally, I’m from Africa, but I moved to Canada when I was 16 years old. And I was young, my first time living without my parents. In our culture, we’re not supposed to marry out of the African community. But he was a football player. He moved to Canada from Africa to play a minor league, and when we met, it was pure bliss to meet someone like him. Because I came from a society that men are very, I can say, machos.

Tanya: I had a couple family members involved in a very abusive relationship. And for me, it was easy to recognize, but I couldn’t break it off right away. Because it would be like dumb of me. So I had to get to know him and see what was going on.

Anne: When you say dumb of you, why did you think at the time it would be dumb of you to break it off?

Tanya: Because I thought that I didn’t give him a chance.

Tanya: I had friends around me also that were like, you need to get to know him better so that you can make that decision. So I felt like because of the peer pressure that I had around me.

Anne: So people are saying you can’t just judge him right off the bat. Because you need to get to know him better. How does it progress from there?

Tanya: At that time I was only 18 years old. Also it was the first time living in a different country by myself. I was just like, okay, I can make my boundaries. Because I’m not married to him and he’s not really like my boyfriend. Additionally I have my apartment and I don’t have to go to his house.

Tanya: But that summer, he got laid off from football, so he had to move back to the United States where there is another league that wanted him. I just felt like, yeah, he’s moving back to the United States. Also he’s an American. I just thought, yeah, our relationship is done.

I don’t have to pursue that relationship anymore, but we reconnected again and we start dating. Then he decided, oh, do you want to come to visit? I said, yes.

I just felt like, oh, I can rescue him for some reason, I just thought like, I can talk to him. Maybe influence him in a better way because the difference between me and him in what I felt like it was too wild. He was a football player, but I just started noticing differences amongst our values and whatever I believed about family.

When I came to visit him here in the United States, I just told him, I don’t, think this is going to work. One, because I’m just starting to see that our personalities don’t really go together.

Tanya: And right away I saw this anger come out of him. I couldn’t believe so I grabbed my phone and called my friend. I said, he is angry. In fact he shows anger that I don’t think I can deal with. My friend said, again, I think you’re judging him for just one time situation.

You are in his country. So you should chill out and calm down. He’s a good candidate for marriage. He would speak to my friends about marriage, saying he would like to marry me. That I’m a good person. That he likes me because I am not like this American woman. Instead, they’re more into material things, and I’m very grounded. So my friend said, you know, I think you should try it.

Tanya: He asked me to marry him. My friends threw a big engagement party. I left my job, left my apartment, my car, I moved to the United States.

And that time his friend was also married with a woman from Columbia. She said, oh, let’s go to brunch. When we were at the brunch, it was only two hours. We took a long time to come home, because our car stopped and we were looking for someone to help us see what was going on with the car. He was calling me, was calling me, was calling me. It took us three hours to get back home.

As soon as we get back home, he pushes my phone. Then he throws the phone on the floor and grabs my computer. After that, he throws the computer on the ground. So everything is broken. My friend said, Tanya, what are you going to do now? Because you already accept this man proposal. So now do you want to return to Canada? What’s everyone going to say?

Anne: Where’s your friend from

Tanya: A couple of them were Canadians.

Anne: Would you say, where you’re from in Africa, that this was a cultural thing? That men just get mad and it’s no big deal?

Tanya: It’s pretty common, but it depends also on the family you came from, because my family were not like that. Meeting him and his family and seeing the manipulation. Especially the way they speak and silent treatment. Then I already knew that this marriage was not supposed to happen. Because it was something I’ve never experienced, and it goes back to pornography.

Tanya: Pornography was something that I never heard, not in my house as I was growing up. Even with my friends in Canada. Because we never spoke about pornography.

But when I returned to the United States, he had invited me to my in-laws home in Chicago. Then sleeping downstairs in their basement, he had pornography. Because he wanted to watch, I was shocked. And then I said, no, your family is from Africa. How come you have pornography inside your parents’ home?

Tanya: This is not supposed to happen. I was so shocked that he had something like that inside his parents’ home. But I guess he was hiding, and he’s like, let’s watch. I said, no, I cannot watch it. Because I’m a Christian, so I can’t watch it.

He was very angry again. He said, There are so many women that would like to be with me. because I’m an American football player and I played for NFL. Including this team, also that team. And do you know how many women would like to be in your place right now? You’re telling me no? It’s just sex.

I said, no. For me, it’s not just sex. If we’re married, sex for me in a marriage means something different. No, I cannot do this.

And we broke up. We stopped talking for three or four days. But mind you, I’m already here in the United States. We’re already preparing for this marriage. What will I tell people that I’m breaking up because of pornography? Because I found pornography in his parents basement? I felt like everyone around me was just trying to invalidate me? Because I found this guy that plays NFL, I guess it is a big thing.

And I also noticed that he was able to get me as an African, I guess, humble and naive. That would bend to whatever it is that he wanted to. And the abuse was not just based on just pornography. It escalated to almost everything, not just from him, but also from his family members.

Anne: So his psychological abuse, isn’t just coming from him. But he’s also roping your in-laws into emotionally abusing you and coercing you.

Tanya: Exactly. The emotional abuse from my in-laws was, How can you speak up? Who are you? How dare you go out there and speak up? This is our son. He’s been doing so great. He plays football so well.

He’s successful. You’re supposed to be lucky that you have him in your life. Now you’re coming to us, telling us that he’s abusive, that he calls you names. That he takes stuff away from you. Because he took my green card. He took my Canadian citizenship. He would take bank cards. Throughout our marriage, I did not have access to any finances.

Anne: So you ended up marrying him, then.

Tanya: This time that I left him would be my third time leaving him.

Anne: So talk about the first couple of times you left.

Tanya: The abuse was also from my in-laws. I would call my in-laws, I said next time he asks me to do any kind of sexual behavior that I don’t want to. I’ll call the police. Because how can I have sex with my husband, and he calls me the B word? I’m not going to do that. And when I started speaking up, the family didn’t like it. My in-laws emotionally abused me by blaming me. They would say, “No, it’s you. You have a big mouth. You speak too much.”

I went upstairs and put my son to bed. Then he says, “You have to know that this marriage is between me and you. And if you want me to be closer to you, you have to understand. There are certain things that a wife should do.”

I said, “What?”

He says, “First off, we need to start with sex. If you can give me oral sex, I can go downstairs and speak to my mom to stop.”

Anne: Wow, so sexual coercion right there. Yeah, in that moment he’s sexually coercing you.

Tanya: And I left him. My son was only three months at that time. He wasn’t calling, he wasn’t contacting, which for me was fine. Because I have already gone through so much with him. And no support around me.

Tanya: His dad calls me. I completely understand what you’re talking about. I want to apologize, but we are Christians, and you have to understand you guys are married. We don’t believe in divorce. And I don’t want you to raise a son without a father.

I promise you that I’ll take him to a counselor. He’ll do therapy, and I’ll be beside you. I just don’t want you to tell anybody. Please come back, I am here and I’ll support you. I said, I don’t want to come back. Because it’s been almost a year, and I haven’t seen any support from any of you. I feel like you guys are blaming me for whatever is going on. And I don’t even understand what was going on. That was the first time, and they begged, and he asked, and I came back.

Tanya: Three months after me being back, he was starting again, verbally abusing me. It was just a cycle, verbally abusing me. No one will believe you. You just came back from Canada. I know it’s something with you. You want to return here to destroy my career. I said, but your dad promised me. So I stayed for another three years.

Anne: Yeah, that’s common. My in-laws emotionally abused me by telling me that I was trying to ruin her son’s life. And I was like, what are you talking about? I’m trying to save our marriage. But the in-laws accusation, You’re trying to harm our son.” Is what a lot of in-laws say.

Tanya: My in-laws said, I was trying to destroy his career. I was trying to destroy his family. But it was because he was having an affair with a woman from his gym. And not just one. There was multiple.

Anne: And your in-laws knew about the abuse and they still blamed you?

Tanya: My in-laws knew about the abuse. His mom blames me. He would watch pornography in front of me. He would sleep outside the home.

Tanya: He completely isolated me from everyone at this time. Now, I wasn’t even able to contact my family members. Because I started to feel so ashamed.

So my family practically, they wash their hands. My in-laws enable him to continue to abuse. I was home with my son, worried about COVID. He had this cough that we’re afraid of. It was so congested. And he wouldn’t give me the car keys or money to take my son to the hospital. That day, he came home at one o’clock in the morning. Me and my son were sleeping, and he comes upstairs. He didn’t take a shower, and he wants to jump in bed.

And I told him, no, you can’t. My son also looks at him and says, “No, you can’t”. And he says, This is my home, this is my bed, I’ll sleep here. I said, No, you can’t. And I stood up off the bed, and as I was walking, he came behind me. He starts doing like sexual movement. And I push him.

And he calls me B word the S word. Nobody wants me. Nobody likes me, I am nothing. Look at me znd look at him as a football player. Everybody wants to be with him.

I said, go, I don’t care what women would like to be with you. But I will not stand you talking to me like that anymore. Never again, not in front of my son. And he says, listen, tonight we’ll see who’s going to live. My son started crying, and I grabbed my son. I went to another room and closed the door. I run outside and he comes behind me.

Tanya: He grabs my night down and pushes the night ground, and I grab a picture frame and throw the picture frame in his head. He calls the police. The police came in and they said, what happened? I start to explain, and he says, even my son saw her throwing the picture frame on me.

Anne: So you are arrested for domestic violence after being abused consistently for years. What happens next?

Tanya: In jail, I felt this peace coming over me. I know God took me out, of the situation. Because all these years, I was not ever, ever able to explain to anyone what was going on. When I went to church, I told them, “Listen. This is what he does sexually.

This is what he says. Yes, I am his wife. But how can a wife have sex with her husband that does those things? That calls her names. How can I do that?”

Everyone that I went to, they were like, “You have to try. You have to save your marriage.” The more I tried, the more he was abusing me. In fact the more I cleaned the home, became more submissive, and dressed up, he was more abusive. I didn’t speak to my family. The more I didn’t go to his place of work, the more I stayed home. Anything I tried, it was abuse.

To the point where I was starting to develop hives all over my body. I was starting to develop anxiety. Anyone who would come to my home and knock on the door would have these panic attacks. When I went to jail, everything stopped. I stayed in jail for three days. I didn’t have any panic attacks.

Tanya: When I came out of jail, I didn’t have a place to go. Because again, he isolated me from anything that I know, everybody that I know. I couldn’t go home.

One of the moms called, and she told me, I want to invite you to bring your son. Let’s play soccer, go to the beach. Let’s do something. I said, please help me. Also, I just came out of jail and she says, where are you? I told her where I was. Right away, she came to pick me up. And took me to her home. I stayed there for almost a month.

After a month, I had to find a place to go. Shelters helped me with food and lawyers. Also people that I can talk to to help me with my case. I’m here, I haven’t gone home yet, and our case is still going on. He was fighting to take custody of my son for almost a month. I wasn’t allowed to see my son. My lawyer actually helped me recover the custody. So now we have 50/50.

Anne: Okay.

Anne: You’re staying in an apartment with the help of the domestic violence shelter now.

Tanya: Yes, and since I have been here in this apartment, he’s been trying to contact me. He’s telling me he doesn’t want to get a divorce, and that he’s sorry. He’s telling me that he doesn’t know why he has been behaving the way he does. But I still have this confusion in my head. Outside, everyone sees him as this wonderful man.

He’s a coach. He’s a leader in our community. He volunteers at my son’s school. He helps his clients develop this positive attitude about themselves. About their bodies, minds, and soul. But at home, he was so disrespectful to me. That I lost myself.

Tanya: After me going to jail, for me to be where I am, for him to say he wants to go back with me. That he doesn’t want to get a divorce, I am still confused. I am still lost.

Anne: Well, he does not want to lose control. When he says those things, that’s grooming. He’s trying to groom you back to be with him. Because he does not want to lose control over you.

Tanya: Yes, I’m not important to him, because he has never done anything to make me feel important. He thinks that I am only worthwhile to take care of our son. Also have sex with him, clean the home, cook, and do whatever he needed to do with me.

Anne: So in this confusion, are people helping you see through that? Because it is a really hard time to think, maybe he does care or maybe he will change or something like that, and that’s a dangerous time because he’s never shown any evidence of doing that. Is it easy for you to see it as grooming, or is it still so traumatizing and confusing?

Tanya: I’m speaking to a counselor, and she’s helping me. She’s saying, listen, you can’t speak to him. You can’t return to his home or gym. You cannot speak to your in-laws. He has a restraining order on me.

Anne: Despite that, he’s contacting you to try and get you to talk to him?

Tanya: He’s the one who’s contacting me. He’s the one who calls me. He invited me to a staycation and wants to buy me stuff. He keeps asking me if I need anything. I blocked him from my phone, but he’s still wanting that communication. And another part of the confusion just comes, maybe this fact of me going to jail. Maybe something clicked in his mind, and me filing for divorce, I keep going back and forth.

Anne: These similar thoughts go through every woman’s head who is faced with this. Do I just put up with the abuse? What alternative do I have? Am I going to be homeless? Am I going to have my son? However, you are not crazy. The only thing that these types of thoughts prove is that you are a victim of abuse. This is how victims of abuse think.

Tanya: Yeah, I have a seven year old and I have nobody, and I just filed for divorce. I have no finances and depended on him. I wasn’t allowed to take any courses, any going to school, any training, nothing.

For almost everything and anything. So I am very sure. Because I know my lawyer told me that he denied my request for child support and alimony. So I’m sitting down here and still waiting. Until when will I continue to live in a shelter? Now, my question is, do I return to Canada? And even if I return to Canada, am I going to take my son with me?

I cannot continue to be in a shelter having 50/50 percent of custody. I don’t have financial means to take care of my son. And you have to remember I don’t have my green card in order to get a good job.

Anne: What does your lawyer say about the circumstances right now?

Tanya: She’s helping, trying to regain all my documentation that he has taken away from me. He actually insists I should go and take a psychological evaluation. When he asked for my son’s custody. He wanted me to do that. My lawyer said no.

Just the simple fact that she doesn’t have her documentation. And all this year, she hasn’t been able to go see her family. There are proofs. So no, we’re going to continue to support you. We’ll continue to listen to you. And we’re going to get something for you to survive, for you to help your son.

And I think this is where he knows. That I am that vulnerable that I’m going to want to get help from him. So that my head would go back. And say, oh, listen, I don’t have anyone here and life is really hard out there.

Anne: Yeah, you’re in an extremely vulnerable situation, but you can get out of it.

Anne: It’s going to take time and effort, and it’s so hard. And probably seems impossible. But I just want all our listeners who are listening to pray for Tanya? She needs us. She has nothing and needs our help. They do have family, they still feel that sense of like nobody believes me. I can’t figure out how to fix this. And they feel stuck. So that feeling of being stuck is something that’s familiar to all of our listeners. We can empathize with you.

Tanya: But I think the impossible part is that I feel like nobody’s listening. No one is listening. No one cares that no one wants to believe me. I also feel like, should I even pray? Because the times I went to church and spoke to them, and having counseling in the church. They kept pushing me back to that place of abuse. I keep having that picture of him masturbating in front of me, of him completely disregarding me in that way.

Anne: That’s extreme sexual coercion, psychological and emotional abuse that you’re experiencing. It is mind boggling to me that people think that pornography is not an abuse issue. Or that their husband’s pornography use does not affect women. Or that somehow their infidelity is like just something that men do. Also, that it’s not an absolutely debilitating abuse to their spouse is crazy to me.

Anne: It’s interesting to me that in telling your story, you’ve been verbally abused. You’ve been psychologically abused, you’ve mentioned that several times. So one of the most traumatic things for you was the pornography. And people might be like, well, that wasn’t a big deal. He punched you. And you’re like, the thing most traumatizing was the sexual abuse.

Tanya: It’s because I feel that if it wasn’t the sexual behavior. Meaning the infidelity, watching porno, just having a woman at his disposal. It was the main aspect of the abuse. Because if I have access to these porno women, if they’re looking in front of me. Then when I come home, what do I need you for, but to be angry with you?

Not to respect you, to call you the names that I can call you. I really do believe the sexual for me was a very, very big thing. Very big part of my abuse in my marriage. I really do believe that.

I came across your podcast listening to all the stories and they resonate with me so much. That my in-laws enabled the abuse.

I feel very sad and lost. But, I believe I will come out of this strong.

Anne: There are thousands of listeners to this podcast. And so just little old you, little Tanya, who thinks no one is listening. And that nobody cares, you’ve now just told your story to thousands of women.

You’ve listened to us on the podcast. We’ve been this, hopefully, light in the darkness, but in this moment, right now, we’re all here with you. I hope you can feel our love and support. Across the world, we are here with you in sisterhood and we will hope that God provides a miracle for you.

Because not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. Not having any control over where you’re living, no money and no support system. Is a completely overwhelming situation. But I do know that God sees you. He’s listening now. He loves you and we love you. You have to fight.

Tanya: Yes, yes, it is. It is crazy and it’s scary and it’s lonely. But I do have my son and I do have this podcast that I have been listening to and it just made me feel. I am not alone.

Anne: You are incredible and brave and strong. You are amazing and I’m proud of you for coming on this podcast and sharing your story. When you don’t have a happy ending, yet.

Tanya: To anyone that is listening. I don’t want to go back to that man. I would like to have my son with me. To everyone, send me that energy. That strength and courage to please make me be strong. Not to go back in the hands of that man. Because I never knew rest until I went inside of that jail. I’m asking to please pray for me.

Anne: We are with you. We will pray for you, Tanya. Thank you for being so brave and sharing your story.

I want to thank everyone for listening. My heart is really tender right now. Not just Tanya’s story, but the mini stories that I’ve heard. And if you’d like to spend time with women who get it. With women who can sit with you in pain and totally understand. Because they’ve been in a similar situation.

Please attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group session. You can attend one today. We built our BTR group sessions for this situation. So no woman out there. It feels like she’s alone. It’s the least expensive, appropriate option out there. And it’s unlimited live support multiple sessions a day. In every single time zone. We’d love to see you in a session today.