If you’re thinking, “My husband is paranoid and angry,” this interview will help you sort out what’s really going on. It’s likely that you’re experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Louise. She’s here to share her story. So many women share a similar story. They talk about how their husbands are paranoid and angry.

One of the reasons women think their husband is paranoid is because they don’t realize he’s lying. So when he says things like, you’re trying to control me, you don’t respect me, nobody respects me. Women take it at face value, they don’t realize he is lying. And so he sounds paranoid. And maybe he is, or maybe it’s just manipulation.

Louise, Welcome. let’s start with your story.

Louise: Thank you, we married at 19, and we knew each other all our life. I noticed he was mean to his sister, and I talked him out of that. So I thought he’d learned his lesson. I mean, the stories are all the same, but talking at me in the evenings in bed. And sometimes in the day for hours on end. Always disagreeing until I cried, and it took me years to figure that out.

We were raised in that patriarchy setting. Where women just didn’t have a say, right? In the Mennonite church, and then we went into the Bill Gothard stuff. And I wanted to be the perfect wife and mother. And, and the way to do that was to be totally submissive and obedient. So then he was always saying, “But you’re not obeying me.” And when I did, he would, in front of the children, say, but I told you different.

Anne: Wow, fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And so he would move the goalposts?

Louise: Basically, that crazy making, right?

Louise: We were married in 1972, and in those days, there was no information, there was no internet. We had seven biological children and three from an orphanage in Haiti. That was a difficult time. I went to the library one day, and there a little book caught my attention, called Men Who Hate Women. That was the beginning of my education.

Anne: Before you found the book, what did you think was going on? Can you talk about your feelings at that time?

Louise: I felt like I was never good enough. Why is he always paranoid and angry? And I thought if I was good enough, maybe something would work out. Or if we could get counseling, you know, the old story.

Anne: You didn’t just think that, by the way. He was actually telling you that. He said to you, the problem is you. If you would cook better, if you would do this better, if you would serve me more, then it would solve our problems. Which kept you in this hamster wheel. Your husband manipulated you to think that. He wanted you to think that.

Louise: And when he sensed that I thought that, then of course he used that, right? And pastors were no help, they said the same thing. And the teaching we had from Bill Gothard was that, as long as everybody was obedient to whoever was above them. That umbrella scheme, then everything would work out, right? A person is attracted to the promises that if you do this, everything will come out right.

Anne: Exactly. This is one of the signs of spiritual abuse.

Louise: I opened up this book in the library, and found a list. If your husband does six of these 20 things, then he is abusing you. And I got to number 11 or 12, and I slammed it shut. Because you don’t want to hear that, then what do you do? That’s the end of your life. And I snuck it home and read it, but there were no answers in it either. They didn’t have any answers, just explanations.

And yeah, you’re supposed to be strong. But when you’re raised to think you’re not strong, and that you don’t have a say, then you can’t be strong. And then the next thing was my sister gave me the Boundaries Teachings. And that was a shock, that I was actually allowed to say no to anybody in this world. So I listened to that over and over. And very slowly, started to do that.

And finally, one day, I prayed, and I read 1 Peter 3 and 4, and I read it several times. I thought, Okay, God, what do you want me to learn from this? And a light went on. This is not a formula, but this is what I feel I was told. And so I went to him, and I said, I think God told me you can have all the sex you want. And he goes, oh, and I said, but you have to choose.

There are two types of relationship. There’s a master slave, and there’s Christ’s church, and you have to choose which one. If it’s a master slave, you command me to do, and I’ll just let you.

Louise: And if it’s Christ’s church, you have to win me back, because you have lost my affection. Both options require humbling yourself, right? That’s not gonna happen. And first he yelled at me and said, “You’re my wife, you’re supposed to obey me. I command you to feel affection for me right now.”

We slept in the same bed for three more years and never had it again. Because he couldn’t admit he wanted a slave, and he couldn’t humble himself to be Christ like. On the other hand, this gave him a lot of fuel with counselors. She hasn’t let me touch her in three years, right?

I know he masturbated about four times a day. He did admit it , and then I figured out why I was finding him sleeping in the hay all the time, because he tired himself out with it.

Anne: Wow.

Louise: If he had magazines, I have no idea, because I didn’t think of it. I mean, we were married 25 years. And I only found some of this out right at the end. It didn’t cross my Mennonite mind, you know. So that was all that was on his mind. If I ever smiled at him, he would come rushing over and say, “You want it? You smiled at me.” That’s all that was on his mind. He was in Fantasyland. And if I tried to talk to him, I interrupted the fantasy, and he would be angry.

He was paranoid and angry all the time. When I blew up once in a while, he accused me of being too angry and having to protect the children from me.

Louise: He would talk at me for hours and hours, just in circles, the crazy making thing. And I cried out to God, I said, God, what should I do? I actually heard the words shut up, in a nice way. And I said, what? It was like this never goes anywhere. Stop engaging in these conversations. So I did. And then he would tell counselors, she won’t talk to me, and if only she would communicate with me, we would be fine.

And they would agree with him. Then I started writing things down, and when he caught me, he says, “You shouldn’t keep a record of wrongs, that was evil.” He was so paranoid. And we flew all the way to Minneapolis to this well known, good counselor. And I showed him my notes, he read them that evening, and the next day he said, “If this is true, we have a big problem.”

Then he sent me out, he took my husband in, an hour later he brought me in, and he says, Your husband reassured me that you made all this up.

Anne: What?

Louise: Yeah, it was a Christian counselor. He and his buddy had written some books. I forget what they were called, and I don’t remember his name either.

Anne: Wow, wow.

Louise: Another time, my sister took me to her counselor in Vancouver. I told him one or two sentences of what was going on. And then he perfectly got it, and he said there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s an intervention. Get his friends together to intervene, and tell him he’s got to stop this behavior. Or else they’re going to help you get away.

Louise: So I called my friends and they agreed to do that. And then they picked me up from my sister. And when I got to their place, they had called him to come get me, because I was all mixed up in the head.

Anne: Oh, so they turned on you.

Louise: So finally toward the end, we went to Elijah House in Washington. It was Christian counseling, they do prayer counseling. Throughout the counseling, they asked God, what’s going on here? And they figured it out, they said it was abuse. But he said it didn’t work. He said to me, don’t you know you’re always wrong?

And when I told him I wasn’t going to talk all night. I said, if you can make me cry in five minutes, then you’ll suddenly see my point. And if it takes five hours, and he says, “Oh don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry that makes a man out of me?

Anne: Wow.

Louise: It was shortly after that when I checked myself into the psych ward, because I just felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. And there was a counselor there, a psychologist, who talked to both of us and said, See, you just have to communicate with him. But the doctor in charge came to me on the third day and said, “Listen, the nurses tell me you don’t belong here.”

Louise: What is really going on? And so I told him. A couple of days later, he said, do you want to go home? And I said, my kids need me. But I was happy there. And he said, I’m a Christian, I don’t believe in divorce. But I’m not going to let you out of here until I know you’ve made arrangements not to live with him anymore. And I fell apart because I thought that would be committing the worst sin in the book, even just separating.

But I called my friend and she called the pastor and the pastor told him, Oh, just play along with it. Live in your van for a few days and once she gets home, she’ll let you back.

Anne: Oh my word, this is abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse.

Louise: Yeah, and my dad said, Oh, just give her a pill, but I never let him come back.

Anne: You are so brave and so strong. You were resisting his abuse the whole time, because you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were going for help, and no one, except for that last guy, was helping you, you are so brave.

Louise: Actually, I wasn’t going to divorce him. His friend flew in and told him to get rid of me real quick, and so he divorced me. I think he thought I was making it all up. He’s married to my cousin, and we’ve always been friends. I’ve known him all my life, so I don’t know what the deal was, but I was glad.

Anne: That his friend convinced him to let you go, really? Your resistance had become quite troublesome for him. That’s actually what happened to me. My ex divorced me because my resistance was so untenable to him.

Louise: I think I made him look bad, so he had to make me look bad. Then I was single for eight years, and it was great. My health got better. I just loved raising the kids myself. But he basically ran me out of town. He played games with the finances. Totally ruined my reputation with my friends and the church and everything. In little subtle ways where, well, you know how she gets and stuff like that.

And even my oldest daughter she came home one day. And she said, Mom, if you knew what people were saying about you in this town, you wouldn’t want to live here anymore. She didn’t actually share what she heard, but that’s what happened. And so I thought, you know, maybe marrying again would be a good idea. This must be a rare dynamic. Surely there aren’t many guys like that around. But I met my current husband.

It was a visa thing, you had to move here a week before you get married type thing.

Anne: So you meet him online, he’s got a farm, and you move to the States with him. Did you have a long distance relationship with him?

Louise: Yeah, but it wasn’t that far, like five hours, we could see each other fairly often. And looking back, sure, you can see the red flags. Well, I have to confess to you that I found some old exploitative tapes, but I destroyed them.

Louise: So that sounds pretty good. right? On the wedding day, I had a friend I hadn’t known terribly long. And he went off driving with her all afternoon. Then he came home and took her into our bedroom for an hour with the door closed. I was shocked. I had my friends and family, they were all there in the house, and I still don’t know what they were thinking. Because he ignored them all, all day, and then a couple years later, I signed us up for a marriage retreat.

I found out three years later, he had arranged for his girlfriend to be there, and her husband. I know he had another email account. So he was keeping in contact with a couple of girlfriends, and he was definitely into pornography. He admitted it to the counselor we went to. It was pretty much the same thing all over again. Several years ago, I said, if we want to make this work, I want you to sign up with an abuse counselor.

And, oh, he was like, no, that’s not going to work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, he did sign up and she interviewed him, and then she talked to me and she said, you know, you’re wasting your money. Take that money and get help for yourself. The biggest thing that has helped me, about five or six years ago, one day I looked in the mirror and I said, God, what do you think of me? How do you feel about me? And in the next three days, everything changed.

Louise: I know what God thinks now. And so the next time he insulted my body, I just laughed. And I said something like, You’re not such a young punk yourself anymore. Something like that. Sometimes it still hurts. Sometimes it still makes me mad. But when you know to expect it, and you know it’s not your problem. That makes a huge difference, and I’ve also learned to do a lot of boundary setting. I know he thinks that means I’m controlling him, but I’m not.

It used to be like, is it okay if I go to town? A lot of isolation, he didn’t want me to go to the town six miles away because it was a waste of gas. And I just say this is what I’m going to do today. I don’t know, there’s always answers and always help. The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and he will answer us. And sometimes he gives dreams, and sometimes a scripture, sometimes a friend. It’s important to have support when your husband is paranoid and angry.

Anne: One of the symptoms of spiritual abuse is not feeling connected to God. And getting the right support like the support available through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. How is it different?

Louise: Oh, totally. Like night and day, the whole Christian world said you can’t get divorced. And it’s the woman’s fault, everything. You know, if you would treat him better or whatever, this wouldn’t be happening. And you try until you make yourself sick, right? And, you know, we can be thankful for all the support we have, but you still have to reach out. Because my husband is paranois and angry.

Anne: Well, do you know why we have that support now? It’s because of women like you, I’m standing on your shoulders.

Anne: Had you not resisted in all the ways you resisted, I would not be here. And so we all owe a great debt to women who came before us, who led the way for us.

Louise: Our stories hopefully can help someone else. Who is dealing with an angry and paranoid husband.

Anne: I’m so grateful for women who pressed on without any support. Your stories are both inspiring, and then also so horrific. It sounds like torture, and I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s awful.

Louise: And the hard part is when people don’t believe you, you know?

Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, can you believe that people are still not believing women?

Louise: Yeah, no, it’s amazing.

Anne: Yeah, yeah, it is. You are so brave and incredible. And as you continue to grow and heal. I’m so grateful to have you as part of our community. Thank you so much for all your support.

Anne: How long have you been listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast?

Louise: For years, almost from the beginning, I think.

Anne: Thank you so much for your support. Do you remember how you found the podcast?

Louise: I think on Facebook. And I sure appreciate what you all do.

Anne: We appreciate you. Thank you for all your support over the years. If it weren’t for women like you, we wouldn’t be doing this. So thank you.

Louise: Yeah. Thanks so much for putting it out there. I mean, it takes something to just put our stories out there.

Anne: It does. It’s a lot of work. It’s so worth it. I’m so honored to hear women’s stories, because it’s a very vulnerable thing to share your story. Thank you so much, Louise, for sharing today. It will make a big difference to someone who hears it. Thank you so much.

Louise: Thank you.

In the face of emotional and psychological abuse, women often carry the burden of being the peacemaker. But what does Jesus say about abuse?

Matthew 5:25 is often quoted to manipulate women. But here’s what Jesus is really saying.

To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Let’s take Matthew 5:25 – What does Jesus say about abuse? Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”

If your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive, rather than engage with the abuser, you can quickly and passively agree (if it’s safe to do so). Anne shares an example on the podcast:

“You can be a peacemaker and you can be safe with the strategy of agreement. Here are some examples. Let’s say your husband says something like, ‘Well, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me.’

Rather than diving into an argument or pulling out all the times where you did listen to him and how you do respect him, because you always ask his opinion before you spend more than $50 and all the reasons why you are a good person. You can say, ‘oh, that’s interesting; I haven’t thought of that.‘”

Best practice is to appear disinterested and apathetic. The abuser wants to create chaos. We want you to create distance between yourself and the abuse so that you can create safety for yourself. Here are some phrases (along with a disinterested, apathetic impression) to use when you’re “agreeing quickly” with the abuser:

Your apathetic, disinterested “agreement” is a great way to quash his attempts at arguing with you.

The word salad, gaslighting, intimidation, and other abusive tactics that come up when abusers “argue” with victims can be extremely damaging. A quick, apathetic agreement is a great way to “douse the fire” and create an opportunity for you to get a safe distance from the abuser.

“I’m not mad or upset; there’s no fight. They love a fight, and they also love it when you do what they want. So they’re trying to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. But if you’re not going to do that, then they will enjoy the chaos of an argument.”

Anne Blythe, founder of BTR.ORG

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop has many more of these strategies. You don’t have to do this alone. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Anne: It’s just me today. Even though this podcast is interfaith and interparadigm, many of you who listen are Christian. If you are not Christian, this episode will still help you, and these principles will apply. Yes, it is what does Jesus say about abuse, but it’s also one of the strategies from the Living Free Workshop, and I’m going to go into detail about it. In the Living Free Workshop, it is all secular. It’s just the strategies themselves, without any background information about how I discovered it.

So what does Jesus say about abuse? What does the Bible say about divorce?We’re going to look at some scriptures that abusers have used to spiritually abuse victims, so that they can exploit them. The first one is Matthew 5:25. It’s part of the Sermon on the Mount. And Jesus says, “Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee unto the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”

In the scripture, he’s talking about someone who wants to do you harm. They want to imprison you. When it comes to abusers, they want to oppress you, and they’re going to say things to manipulate you. So Jesus says we should agree quickly with our adversary, and this is the best way to deal with a dangerous person in a strategic way. So here’s an example of agreeing quickly with an adversary, and how it can protect you.

Anne: I was at a singles event and there was a man who wanted me to talk to him. I was not into it because he was like, 30 years older than me, and no.

And as I was like, brushing him off, he said, “You really push men away. Men aren’t going to like that.” And I remembered what Jesus said about agreeing quickly with my adversary. So I said, “Yeah. cool.” Basically, like, yeah, I do push men away, great. Instead of doing what he wanted me to do, which was stop and say, oh, of course I don’t want to push men away, I will talk to you because I’m polite. I was like, yeah, I push men away, mission accomplished.

Anne: When it’s a husband, he’s going to say things like, you don’t care. You don’t love me, you won’t meet my needs, you don’t respect me. You don’t respect me is the most common abuser statement there is. Instead of trying to prove that you do respect him, or explain to him why you don’t respect him. Think about this strategy that Christ taught us. Jesus says about abusers to Agree quickly with an adversary.

You could say, oh yeah, maybe I don’t. And then you always need to follow up with an exit strategy. That’s the quickly part. You agree immediately, and then exit. So with the man at the singles event, I said, “Oh yeah, I do push men away, cool.” And I walked off. With your husband, the quickly part would be like, I have to fold the laundry. We can talk about it later. And the strategic thing. Don’t ever talk about it later. Don’t bring it up.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Now, it’s impossible to have peace when someone is trying to oppress you and they are legit trying to distress you. That is their goal. They’re going to cause problems no matter what. So Jesus says, one strategic way to protect ourselves is to agree with them. Do it with an apathetic, disinterested stance toward them.

Abusers want one of two things. They either want to exploit us, so they want us to do what they want, to our detriment. And if they can’t get that, a juicy fight will do. They enjoy our distress.

Anne: So when we won’t do what they want, we also don’t engage in an argument or conversation about it. And give them the impression that they can’t get our attention. That’s one way to protect ourselves. With the man at the singles event, after I said what I said, I walked off in peace, happily.

So here are some examples with your husband. Let’s say your husband says something like, you don’t respect me and you never listen to me. Again, rather than proving to him how you do listen to him saying things like, what are you talking about? I always ask your opinion before I spend more than $50. What are you talking about? I double checked with you before I did this thing, instead of doing that. A Jesus approved strategic response might be something like, huh, I hadn’t thought about that.

Oh, I told Betsy that I’d go visit her. I’ve got to go to the neighbor’s. I’ll be back in about an hour. A distracted, I’m busy doing something else is the strategic way to separate yourself from that type of emotional and psychological abuse. Because remember he wants the chaos. He wants to drum it up.

So here’s another example of how to set boundaries with your husband. Let’s say he uses your own values to trap you into exploiting you. He might say, if you cared about our family, you would, and then state the thing he’s trying to manipulate you to do. Here is the agree with an adversary quickly version of a response. That’s something for me to think about. I’m going to go wash the car. I’ll be back when I’m done with my errands. Can I pick anything up for you at the store while I’m out?

Anne: No matter what, they are on fire, and you can’t do anything to put the fire out, unfortunately. But this is to protect yourself as much as possible. If you’re living with the abuser, this is like putting on a fireproof suit. Now, I found that not being able to just be myself felt very suffocating and exhausting, and I did not want to live with a fireproof suit on all the time. So I ended up escalating my boundaries. The Bible also says a lot about boundaries in marriage.

Some of you might feel that wearing this fireproof suit is your safest option. Whatever you choose is the right thing for you. But this strategy can be applied whether you’re married and still living in the home. Or separating or divorced with any type of unsafe person when they’re trying to get power over you. It’s a good strategy to use to protect yourself. Jesus says about abusers to agree quickly with our adversary, or to be a peacemaker for our own safety. It’s not to benefit him whatsoever.

You don’t have to actually agree with him to agree with an adversary. This, oh, I need to think about that, hmm, you have a point. Will give you enough space to determine what level of safety you actually have. Then you can evolve and try again, just like the Living Free Strategies teach.

Anne: Those who have enrolled in the Living Free Workshop will know exactly what I’m talking about, because this is one of the principles in there. Again, in the Living Free Workshop itself, I don’t teach this with scriptures. It’s in a completely secular context. There is like an appendix at the back, if you’re interested in my personal scripture study and where I came up with some of these strategies based on what Jesus said about abuse.

I wanted to hit on that strategy. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can scroll to the bottom, I’d love to hear your comments. Let me know what you think.

If you never thought you’d have to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage, you’re not alone. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse you’ll experience from a narcissist, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

If you are experiencing narcissistic emotional abuse, you will need support. For live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Gaslighting makes you doubt your memory, instincts, and even your sanity. You start asking, “Is it really that bad?” That’s by design.

Future faking sounds like: “We’ll go to Italy next year” or “I’m applying for jobs tomorrow.” It’s all smoke and mirrors designed to keep you hooked.

If you’re paying the bills, managing the emotions, and making excuses for his behavior—you’re being exploited, not partnered.

Couples therapy often misses narcissistic abuse. When the abuser charms the therapist, you walk away feeling more confused and blamed.

Survivors of narcissistic abuse in marriage often struggle with guilt. But choosing you isn’t selfish—it’s survival. And it’s the first step toward freedom.

Anne: I have Ingrid Clayton on today’s episode. She’s a clinical psychologist and trauma therapist in Los Angeles, California, and the author of the memoir, Believing Me. Welcome, Ingrid.

Ingrid: Thank you so much, Anne. So happy to be here.

Anne: Ingrid, let’s start at the beginning of your story.

Ingrid: Wow, for me, it goes back to my childhood. So my parents divorced. And my mother rapidly remarried my dad’s best friend. That already sets the stage of the first betrayal. And this man, I can now use this language. This is not language I had for a long time, but he started to groom me. And what I now know set me up to please, appease and do everything I could to keep myself safe in a very unsafe environment.

So with my first husband, with so many boyfriends before him. My blueprint was, I will find a way to keep myself safe in an unsafe relationship. So my memoir is about me unpacking decades of that experience.

Sort of untangling it as a survivor, but also as a therapist who didn’t know that she had complex trauma. Because as we know. With narcissism, it’s decades of gaslighting and I believed it wasn’t that bad. Maybe it’s me, and if I try a little harder, you know, all those things.

Anne: So when you say blueprint, you didn’t know that you were continuing to encounter abusive people. What labels did you give them back when you were unaware of the type of character these people had?

Ingrid: I don’t think I would have used the word abusive, that felt too strong. But I saw there was a pattern, I saw they were dysfunctional relationships.

Ingrid: I went and sat on many therapist couches. And a lot of the language given back to me, things like codependency. I couldn’t see myself in that label, this idea that I was trying to control. There was this lens that felt shameful and stigmatizing, and that also didn’t feel like it helped me. So I kept going and trying. And I thought maybe one day it would shift. Meanwhile, there was just a lot of wreckage, and I didn’t know why.

And the narcissistic abuse always presented a little differently. It was active alcoholism, someone who was compulsively cheating on me, exploitation, financially and otherwise. It looked differently in each relationship, but I certainly saw the thread. And it was so painful. So devastating.

Anne: This is why you’re not codependent, you were doing safety seeking behaviors. While you were sitting on those therapy couches, did any of the therapists say the word abuse to you?

Ingrid: Gosh, it’s a good question. I know none of them used the word trauma, which was the piece that finally became so helpful to me. They may have used the word abuse in relation to my upbringing. So here’s the other part of my story. Growing up, I went to the counselor at my then high school. Eventually, I said, here are all the things happening. I think this is wrong. And she said, “I’m a mandated reporter. And we need to call social services.”

So it turned into what was essentially me initiating this intervention on my family. I was about 16 at the time, but if we rewind even further, maybe 12 years old, a friend’s parents had called social services on my behalf.

Ingrid: And they orchestrated this sort of secret meeting with me and a social worker. She sat me down with her clipboard, and this seemed like this formal way. And asked me all these questions. She wanted to know where’s the physical abuse. And I was like, I know he’s hit my mom, but I’ve never seen it. I didn’t have the words. I’ve just seen her bruises. I know he’s done this to my brothers, but it wasn’t about physical abuse.

And at 12 years old, this woman said to me, emotional abuse isn’t reportable.

Anne: Wow.

Ingrid: Okay, so I get to 16 years old, and here we are. I have a counselor who’s taking me seriously, and she’s said, I’m a mandated reporter, we gotta bring social services in here. And what happened then is, they brought my stepdad in and he said, Ingrid, You’re a liar. You made this all up. I have no idea what you’re talking about. This is all a figment of your imagination.

And then we turned to my mom, who basically said, I believe him. So this is such a big piece of the trauma landscape, right? There’s the, what happened to us. And then there’s how people responded to what happened to us. In fact, a deeper cut as far as I’m concerned, in my personal experience. I knew what my stepdad was doing was wrong, but I believed the people meant to protect me and help me were going to do that.

Ingrid: And when they didn’t. Not consciously, but in my body, I started to believe, particularly when my own mother wasn’t able to step in and protect me.

Ingrid: I must not be worthy of protection, love, safety, so it’s this additional layer to what informed me going out into the world. I wasn’t experiencing physical abuse in any of my relationships. So it’s not like I went to a therapist and said, Oh, you know, here’s my experience. And they were trying to reflect that back to me as abusive. I was talking about cheating or unavailability, but I don’t think they were using that language.

Anne: They discounted you to the point where you thought you were not worthy of protection. But was there also a part of you that thought, maybe this isn’t abuse? Not understanding what narcissistic abuse in relationships is made it hard to identify. Like, maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, or maybe I’m crazy, or maybe this is my fault?

Ingrid: I would say both things became true. This is where I picked up on those story lines, and I wasn’t sure. I never thought I made it all up. So it’s not like I thought I was a liar. I knew what happened, but I did wonder, and this is so classic for complex trauma survivors, was it that bad? Like we all walk around with this trauma measuring stick. I can think of someone else who had it worse. So suddenly mine doesn’t really count.

The thing that we know about trauma is that it’s not even about the traumatic event. It’s how the traumatic event overwhelmed your nervous system. So this whole idea about a measuring stick related to the event is just ludicrous anyway. But honestly, I wasn’t the only one carrying that measuring stick around. I think therapists in the mental health field carried it similarly for many years.

Ingrid: You know, trauma was related to acute single events. It was related to veterans, which meant it was largely related to men. I’m 50 years old now. So I grew up when we didn’t have as much information. And consequently, even my own training as a clinical psychologist. I mean, I’ve been practicing in the field for almost two decades, and that didn’t give me the lens and language either for trauma from narcissistic abuse.

And the story of my memoir is that I have to become my own trauma therapist. And I’m just sitting at my kitchen table, writing these stories, reclaiming them again. So that I could look on the page and see for myself, this was narcissistic abuse. I didn’t have that lens or language either. I’m so grateful that I received this call to write in this fast and furious way that wouldn’t let me go no matter how much I tried.

I also think it’s the most heartbreaking thing. I’ve been asking for help since I was a little girl, and I had to wrestle it for myself all alone at my kitchen table.

Anne: All of my listeners would relate. Every one of them, because they didn’t know they were surviving narcissistic abuse in their marriage. They did what they were supposed to do and resisted oppression. They were resisting the abuse. And they didn’t know that’s what they were resisting, but so they went for help, right? They went to clergy. They went to their therapist, and it wasn’t named trauma.

Anne: Instead, maybe in couple therapy, for example, they’re told, okay, let’s improve your communication strategies. Let’s figure out how to …

Ingrid: Knit this relationship back together, I think that’s unfortunate. A couple comes to them and they’re saying, we’re having difficulty. There’s this idea in couples therapy. Obviously they’re coming, because they want to work on the relationship. They probably believe it’s salvageable. And as an individual therapist, I had to call my client’s couples therapist. Do not mistake her boyfriend’s ability to charm you in session for this being a repairable, healthy, relationship.

Anne: The victim does not know that she’s a victim of narcissistic abuse.

Ingrid: That’s right.

Anne: And the perpetrator is never going to be like, hey, I’m a perpetrator.

Ingrid: I’m the problem, yeah.

Anne: He’s never going to say that.

Ingrid: That’s right. Yeah, it’s a painful reality that we ask for help and the help is not helpful. Oftentimes it’s even more harmful.

Anne: Yeah, it’s really hard. So let’s talk about your relationship before you understood it was abuse, what did you think was going on?

Ingrid: I want to start by saying that I felt like marriage was the thing that would give me the stamp of approval that would finally make me okay. So if I wasn’t chosen by my parents, I had this deep need to be chosen by somebody else. It’s another aspect of the blinders I had on.

Ingrid: And so when I met my ex-husband, there were signs. You know, what other people would call red flags. So I saw these things, but simultaneously did not see them. So I was racing towards this finish line of wanting and needing to be married.

Anne: You mentioned that desire to belong. Was it also external? Did you grow up in a religious setting where marriage was part of the equation to happiness did that idea of marriage also come from an external source?

Ingrid: Yeah, I mean, look at every movie and TV commercial, right, it’s everything I grew up with and experienced. This even going to graduate school as a woman and getting my PhD. You would talk to people, and you would tell them about your studies, and they would be like, Oh, so tell me about your relationship status. It didn’t matter what else I was doing. I felt like I was still sitting at the kid’s table, the kid’s table of Thanksgiving, until I was partnered up.

So it was a million subtle cues from the larger environment that, of course, impacted what was also this internal trauma response, right? Like this need, this drive to be validated, and it attached itself to this idea of marriage. And actually when we got engaged, my ex-husband wanted to be an actor, and he wasn’t working. And we entered into this arrangement of living together.

It was like suddenly he just started pulling back more and more. Where it’s like he’s not contributing to our overhead. But the mask he continued to wear more overtly was, we are the happiest loving couple ever. People see our energy, and they’re so jealous of our love.

Ingrid: Right, this sort of love bombing slash sort of future faking. Like it’s gonna be so amazing. So the overt mask was still we’re incredible. But simultaneously, he starts not contributing to our bills. And I’m saying like, what would you do if you were living alone? You know, wouldn’t you feel like you had to be responsible for yourself?

Because at the time I’m in graduate school, I’m living on student loans. I certainly wasn’t taking out student loans to support another person who just stopped working. So I would bring these things up in this very sort of neutral way. Hey, you know, I see this happening. And if he didn’t immediately like agree or change. It was like, okay, I brought it up. He says he wants to work. He says he’s trying, so I guess that has to be enough.

So I just start to swallow it down and accommodate what is his really financial exploitation. You know, fast forward to where we got engaged. And he proposed with this little silver, um, like a dime store ring as like a placeholder for an engagement ring. And we went shopping for an engagement ring, and we get to the counter and see this one, and isn’t it amazing, right?

Like, I feel like I’m living in this, uh, jewelry commercial, you know, it’s like, here it is. Is this the one? He turns to me in front of the salesperson and says, if you put it on your credit card, I’ll make all the payments. And I was devastated. And embarrassed. I thought, what does even the salesperson think of me right now? A, that I’m being put in this position, and B, I’m about to hand over my credit card.

Ingrid: And I know that in my body, it’s like, no one can ever know. So that’s part of what allowed me to know there was abuse. My ex-husband pretended he wasn’t pretending. That’s like our whole relationship, I was like, okay, I’m going to hand over my credit card. And of course he never made a payment. We never brought it up again.

Eventually, I came to see that he was probably drinking and smoking pot all day in our apartment when I was off at work. And I am a recovering alcoholic. I almost have 30 years of sobriety now. I forget what it was then, but I had a lot of time under my belt. So I know alcoholism, right? I grew up also with addiction. And I knew that I was uncomfortable with some of his drinking. I literally didn’t know that he was using to the extent he was.

So just all the secrecy, the lies, and the layers of deceit, it just started to pile up. Until it was only a year into marriage. I’d never had this conscious thought before, but suddenly I knew I had to open the hall closet. And open the hall closet door. I saw a suitcase tucked behind like boots and all kinds of things.

Again, never a conscious thought, but my body knew you got to open the closet. Drag that suitcase out from the back, open it up, and there were all the vodka bottles. So, I finally had this evidence, this, oh my gosh, this is part of what’s going on. I Even if I didn’t have a label, I knew what narcissistic abuse in my marriage looked like.

Ingrid: And it wasn’t something he could talk me out of. Like, oh yeah, I’m trying to work, and oh, I’m getting a job tomorrow, whatever it was. It was like, I had this concrete thing, and eventually it was part of what enabled me to say, I can’t do this. And in a strange way, I look at divorce as probably the beginning of the healing of my complex trauma. Instead of waiting and hoping for someone to choose me.

And I did it with the marriage, but then I was like, he’s going to choose me again by getting a job, right? Like, he’s going to choose me again by quitting drinking, right? He wants to get sober. He wants to live this life that he’s been promising me. Like he talked the best game ever. I believed those words. And so I thought, doesn’t he believe them too? Like he will show up for that.

And finally I said, I can’t keep waiting for someone else to choose me. I have to do it even though no one else ever did.

Anne: You chose you. You started learning how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want.

Ingrid: I had to choose me, and that’s what I did in my divorce, and that puts a nice bow on it, which is a true one. I believe I got so much freedom through walking away. But it’s not to say it wasn’t excruciating, because simultaneously, I believed in my then late 30s that I blew it. This was my one chance to have a family, the thing I always wanted. It seemed like instead of getting that stamp of approval, I was wearing the scarlet letter, the thing that said, damaged goods.

Ingrid: What I had to wade through in terms of that pain and shame was enormous, and yet it was one of the first things that really freed me from narcissistic abuse.

Anne: Yeah, we heal so much through choosing ourselves. Around here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I just call it resisting. Because you were thinking, if I do what he says, I don’t want to do this. But if I agree, if I hand over my credit card right now, maybe it will make it better. This is the only thing to do to get out of the situation in that moment. It is a form of resistance, because you’re thinking, this is what I need to do to get this over with. Or, this is how I work through this.

Because we don’t have a framework for, Oh, I just walk out of the jewelry store. No one’s given us that framework for a solution. Because that doesn’t feel safe either. Because he might get angry, there might be all sorts of other consequences.

Ingrid: That’s right.

Anne: So it’s a way to resist abuse. Understanding that victims are doing the best they can with what they have. And also with the level of education about abuse they have at the time.

Ingrid: Yeah, these aren’t conscious at all. It’s the body’s instinctual response to safety. It’s the last house on the block. Because if you can’t fight back, if you can’t run, guess what? Appeasing and pleasing is resistance, it is an adaptive response. To be in, and listen, it’s not just abusive, any marginalized community, any sort of power structure where someone has power over you. It’s a highly adaptive response to narcissistic abuse in a marriage.

Ingrid: I am a smart person, right? I asked for help, so the other reason I think it’s important for me to address it as a trauma response. Because what that means in terms of my healing is the nervous system. It’s not going and sitting on a couch and talking about it forever. That in fact kept me stuck. It’s working with a part of the brain that was offline. We need to work with solutions that work with the body when it comes to trauma.

It’s why actually I don’t like the words, people pleasing or control. My motivations were never to please, and they were never to control.

Anne: Exactly.

Ingrid: I was trying to stay safe in an unsafe situation. I was trying to survive. Of course, boundaries made sense intellectually. Of course, I can understand those things. They were not available in my body. It’s another layer of gaslighting essentially because it’s telling me, oh, it’s so easy and what’s the big deal?

And it must be you. It must be you. This idea that we are intrinsically broken, and I believe we are beyond not broken. It’s a genius adaptation. I look at the ways we have threaded the needle of safety in the trickiest of environments. And I go, that is brilliant. There’s a literal brilliance to it. And so my hope is that we can take back the brilliance and genius adaptation and hold onto that. Even as I say those words, I feel like self-esteem is rushing into my body.

Narcissistic abuse in marriage robs you of so much. I go, I am not broken. I am brilliant. And I don’t want to live in a chronic trauma response anymore.

Ingrid: We are meant to have more freedom and flexibility. So we have to start with taking the shame and stigma out of experiences where we’re literally just surviving. The environments in which we live.

Anne: And for that reason, I like saying resisting because you were doing something active to protect yourself. It was the best thing you knew at the time. You were doing it instinctively. Think about how smart and powerful, and how awesome you’ve always been. You mentioned future faking. I realized I’ve never done an episode about future faking or gone into depth about it. Can we go there for a second?

Ingrid: The way I experienced it. Despite my ex-husband’s literal inability to show up for this life, he talked such a good game. Like, you want to go to Italy, we’re going to go to Italy. Let’s start saving for Italy now, he said. Let’s open a savings account where we just put money in for this trip to Italy. And I’m like another form of financial exploitation. But it’s also an aspect of this future faking. We’re going to do all these amazing things.

It’s presenting your hopes and dreams and literally saying it out loud. It feels so tangible. Someone to meet us, validate us, to say, yes, we’re going to do this together. It’s so compelling. It was to me. And even though he didn’t bring much to the marriage, it hooked me. It’s another aspect of sometimes hoovering even, right? Of saying all the things you want to hear to get you back into the relationship.

Ingrid: It’s going to be different. I’m doing all these things. And he did that too, like I’m going to get sober. And I went to a meeting. I went and took an application. And they were one-time events that he did just enough to show me. Similar to opening the savings account. It’s I’m going to tell you, in fact, that you can expect all these things to happen. And then I’m not going to do anything other than this little thing to get you to change your mind.

Anne: Abusers are transactional. Like a machine, and their words are like quarters. So he thinks all I need to do is put this quarter in. I say, Hey, let’s go to Italy. That’s a tactic of narcissistic abuse. I put this in, and then beep boop out comes what I want her to do. They don’t see us as human people. More of this is a transaction, and I say this, and I get this back.

Ingrid: I would even say calling it a quarter is giving it too much credit. I mean, it’s like a wooden nickel. It’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s part of what also creates, you know, the fog of emotional abuse. You can’t tell what’s real. I had to stop listening to what my stepdad said happened, what my mom wanted to believe happened, what my ex husband said he was doing or going to do. Almost at any cost, I had to prioritize my own experience, my own feelings over anybody else.

Anne: You’re very brave. You did it!

Ingrid: Yeah, I feel like my whole life has been trying to wrestle me back. And I’m mostly just grateful that I don’t live there now.

Ingrid: I don’t question my worth. I question my sanity. I know what I know. And I know what a reciprocal relationship feels like. I have a husband who has never lied to me. And you talk to people who don’t have experience of abuse. And they’re like, that’s just normal. Of course, you should expect that, and guess what? I never had a relationship where I could say that before. I never knew what that felt like in my body.

In my first marriage, the closer we got to the altar, the more I was like, I don’t know that I’m doing the right thing. And then I could lean on, this is what happens, it’s cold feet. I look back and I go, that was not cold feet, that was wisdom bubbling up to the surface. And I don’t know that every “healthy marriage” isn’t hard. But I can tell you the contrast is remarkable in my personal experience, it’s night and day.

And I will also say the difference in how it felt when we met was remarkably different. I was so used to the feeling of someone having power over me. And I think this is common. We can mistake that unsettled feeling of nervous system dysregulation for butterflies. It’s so exciting, right? I genuinely thought that was healthy chemistry. I was like, Oh, I got that feeling. Now I know that’s a dysregulated nervous system.

So when I met my now husband, who was so kind, I felt so at ease in his presence. I walked away and I was like, he would probably be a great friend. And I just assumed there would be nothing romantic. Because I didn’t have that old like fireworks, crazy chaos thing.

Ingrid: And over time. I got to see, this is what it feels like to be seen and respected. And to not feel like someone has power over me. But that we’re literally building something together. And it’s what it’s felt like this entire time. I will say that does not mean there haven’t been hard times. We became parents, and parenting brings up all kinds of stuff. Like, how will we pay that bill or navigate these different things?

It’s going to kick some dust up, life is still in session. But he’s my person that I can turn to when the dust gets kicked up. He’s not kicking the dust up in my face and going, what’s the matter with you? So we go through the hard times together, even when that means maybe I’m triggered and dysregulated. And I’m having a hard time.

And he can say a genuine, can you take care of yourself? Like, because I’m going to take care of myself and come back. And then we’re going to have a conversation where I’m in my right mind.

Anne: But at no point, I’m guessing, during that time, did he suggest you were crazy.

Ingrid: Never, no, of course not. Yeah, very different.

Anne: I talk so much about the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You can get more information by clicking the link. Living Free is designed to help you regulate your nervous system through thought strategies.So that you can actually implement communication and boundary strategies to protect yourself. And that piece of the puzzle is so important. The workshop helps teach women those strategies, and then our coaches help women actually implement them.

Ingrid: A hundred percent, it’s a process, and it’s not always graceful. It’s not always linear. But if you are engaged in it, that is the bravest, hardest, but also most rewarding thing we can ever do. It’s worth it.

Anne: It’s worth it, and you’re worth it. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for spending the time to talk with me today.

Ingrid: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Does shame cause cheating—or is it just an excuse? Discover the real cause of cheating and why shame isn’t the reason your husband keeps lying.

If you’re experiencing the pain and devastation of finding out your husband has betrayed you online, attend one of our daily Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions TODAY.

Here’s the truth: Cheating is not a mysterious emotional accident. It’s a pattern. A predictable one. And if you’ve been caught in the confusion, these 7 myths will help you see it clearly.

Nope. Shame doesn’t cause cheating—it follows it.

He cheats, he lies, he gets caught… and then he feels bad. That’s not a root cause. That’s a consequence. Saying shame caused the betrayal is like blaming the fire alarm for the fire.

This one gets used to flip the script: He just doesn’t feel emotionally connected.

But guess what? You can’t attach to someone who’s lying to you. Infidelity and porn use destroy connection. If he feels detached, that’s not a disorder—it’s the direct result of his own behavior.

Translation: Don’t speak up. Don’t react. Don’t be upset.

This tactic silences victims. The moment you say, “This hurts me,” he yells, “Stop shaming me!” It’s just another way to dodge accountability and keep you in line.

There’s a myth that religion causes more cheating because it adds shame. But research shows the opposite—religious people use porn less and cheat less. Guilt doesn’t drive betrayal. Choice does.

You are not his recovery plan.

You’re allowed to be angry, to say, “No, I’m not safe here.” Supporting his so-called recovery doesn’t mean tolerating lies, manipulation, or repeat offenses.

Cheating is not a response to your behavior. It’s a habit he chose long before you found out.

You could be the most attentive, sexually available, emotionally present partner on the planet—and he’d still cheat if he wanted to. It’s not about you.

No, it’s not.

It’s a deception problem. A control problem. A lack-of-integrity problem.

Cheating isn’t caused by miscommunication—it’s caused by deliberate choices to lie, betray, and blame.

It’s simple: he wants to do it. And he chooses to do it.

If he’s cheating, he’s not “broken.” He’s not “misunderstood.” He’s not “ashamed.” He’s doing what he wants—and using shame, attachment theories, and therapy language to get away with it.

If your husband continues to lie, gaslight, manipulate, and turn the tables on you about his behavior, understand that this is emotional and psychological abuse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: I recently saw a video floating around social media. It had an example of how to, “Not shame the addict.” This video put the addict in the position of victim. Where he felt more or less put upon by his wife or girlfriend. When she reacted to him, telling her he’d been lying to her and abusing her. When their boyfriend or husband says she’s the problem. This is ridiculous. Any victim of abuse can respond to her abuser in any way that she chooses. Does shame cause infidelity? No, it doesn’t.

If he changed, if he was “an addict in recovery.” He would understand that she’s the victim and he’s the perpetrator, and that she owes him nothing. I have Gary Wilson on the podcast today to talk about the facts. Shame does not cause addiction, that he is not a victim. In fact, the victims are the victims. If you are a victim of lies, infidelity, or abuse, you need to worry about your own safety, not whether you’re hurting your abuser’s feelings.

Gary and I will also talk about how addicts use the theory that they have an “attachment disorder” and expect you to attach with them so that they don’t look at this stuff online. That is not true. You are unable to attach to someone actively using it. And so if they’re trying to blame you for not attaching or saying, I didn’t feel attached, and so I used pornography. That is a way to manipulate you.

This podcast with Gary is super important, and I hope everyone will listen to every word of it. We had some sound problems. So say a little prayer that it won’t bother you too much.

Anne: And say, even though Gary’s microphone wasn’t working well and the connection was bad. Bless that I can hear this and process what he’s saying, that it can help me in my recovery.

He taught anatomy and physiology for years and has long been interested in the neurochemistry of addiction, mating, and bonding. The Society for the Advancement of Health presented Wilson with its Media Award for Outstanding Media Contributions and Public Education on Addiction.

Welcome, Gary.

Gary: Hey, it’s great to be here.

Anne: Okay, Gary, why is this shame causes infidelity and addiction theory so popular right now?

Gary: Addiction and shame are often intertwined, and that’s a separate issue. So shame might be associated with it’s use, or shame associated with just addiction. I can’t stop drinking alcohol, it’s ruining my life, and I’m in a shame and then binge cycle because I can’t stop. I think when we use the word shame we need to be very specific about what we’re talking about.

Anne: Is it true? Does shame cause infidelity or addiction?

Gary: No, shame doesn’t cause addiction. Let’s be real clear about this.

Gary: Addiction has been studied for 60 years, and there are thousands and thousands of neurological studies. It started with animals, where they can induce addiction. Animals do not have shame. Then cut the brains open, they look at the brains, they see the brain changes. So thousands and thousands of rats, mice, even monkeys. And then recently starting to look at food addiction in animals.

And in the last 20 years, we’ve looked at the brain changes in humans that occur with both drug addiction and behavioral addiction, such as addiction, gambling addiction, food addiction, and internet addiction. These brain changes are pretty consistent. And the brain changes are then mirrored in the behavior. So the behaviors would be something like the compulsion to use, which has a lot of cravings, the inability to control use, you’re just out of control.

And you’re binging, continued use despite severe negative consequences. These are the behaviors that we associate with an addiction. People and animals mirror the brain changes that occur. So no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction related brain changes? Let’s just get that out of the way.

Anne: How is shame different than addiction?

Gary: Well, it’s just an emotion. You can have depression, you can have anxiety, you can feel bad. It’s very common for someone who has an addiction to have shame. In other words, they’re hurting themselves. They’re hurting those around them. They have shame because they won’t control themselves. That’s the shame associated with addiction. And that is separate. It should be kept separate.

Gary: I monitor these very large forums where we have primarily young men who are quitting online exploitation. One of them is called NoFap, and it has over 300, 000 members. They did a survey. They found that 62 percent of their members who are trying to quit are agnostic or atheist. So, no, does shame cause infidelity or addiction? No, it’s not about shame.

Anne: Why this is so important to me is because I remember a specific situation. My ex’s behaviors, were escalating out of control. He was becoming more abusive, and his dad came over and they prayed together in our basement. And then his dad left, and then he came up about an hour later. I said, how did it go with your dad? And he was like, fine, then after that prayer, I looked at it for an hour and masturbated.

And I sat down on our bed and said three words. “Whoa, that’s bad.” That’s all I said. Because I realized, holy cow, if he prays with his dad. Then immediately looks at it and masturbates, for over an hour, he’s way far gone. After I said those three words, he yelled, stop shaming me. He used it to silence me.

Basically, you can’t say anything to me. You can’t be angry about my use. You need to “support my recovery.” If you don’t support my recovery, then you’re shaming me. So it seems like this shame thing has been taken to this whole different level than ever intended. By addicts to manipulate people, and it’s ticking me off.

Anne: Let’s talk about the myth that religious people are more likely to be pornography addicts than non religious people. Because religious people would feel more shame about infidelity.

Gary: Well, there’s a couple of reasons it’s floating around. Often what’s cited is this study that found Utah was number one in use. It’s called Red Lights, Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment. It wasn’t about its use across all inappropriate media tube sites. It was looking at state by state subscriptions to one site out of thousands of sites.

My belief is this researcher looked and looked until he found a particular website whose subscriptions were higher in Utah than any other place. So it was a biased study. And people say, well, look, religious people use more or are more addicted. Well, no they’re not. Probably 25 studies have asked groups of people whether they religious or not. They have found that religious people use it at far lower rates than secular people.

So that means that being religious is protective against it’s use and thus protective against addiction, all studies. I’m saying this, all studies that have looked at individuals who check off the box, I’m religious, I’m not religious, all of them find less use among the religious.

And what’s interesting: a study looked at some of these three or four studies that look at states. And they say, well, red states, have a higher rate of Google inappropriate media searches. The suggestion in all these studies is that religious people are lying about their use in all these many studies. They looked at it, they found out they weren’t lying.

In fact, religious people were more likely to tell the truth. So these studies that just looked at how much Google searches there are for inappropriate media in Utah, really do not show good data. They’re not representative, and they should be tossed away. The study said we should stop doing these type of studies. So the bottom line is religious people use it at a far lower rate, which means their addiction is at a far lower rate.

Anne: Now, I would like to point out that Gary is not religious.

Gary: Agnostic, yeah. As were my parents and as were my grandparents.

Anne: Right, so this is not a religious person telling us these studies. This is an agnostic, so they know where you’re coming from, which is what I appreciate about you. Why do you think, at least religious, people in Utah have glommed on to this study thing, as the does “shame cause infidelity” proof positive? So everybody’s walking on eggshells to try not to shame other people.

Gary: Yeah, not only Utah, but a lot of the popular media has glommed onto it, so that means Utah has. And we think of Utah, and we think of course, LDS. I have lots of friends who are LDS. They tell me shame is associated with it.

Gary: Joshua Grubbs, a former, a former very religious person, started to do studies. And in these studies, he had a questionnaire. It was a nine question questionnaire. And it was called the Compulsive Pornography Use Index. He found, using all nine of his questions, that religious people scored higher on this. So he named his nine questions “Perceived Addiction.”

Gary: And then the media took it and said, wow. Religious people believe they’re addicted when they’re not. But then when you look closely at the studies, you find that three of the questions were about shame and guilt. Addiction questionnaires for gambling, alcohol, meth and cocaine do not have questions about feeling guilt or shame after using drugs or nicotine.

What it did, when they looked at it closely, and several studies have since looked at it. They found that this particular questionnaire, because it is one third guilt and shame, caused religious people to score higher. So they said, oh, religious people are more addicted. But then when you remove those three questions, and just looked at his other six questions. So the basis of the “does shame cause infidelity” theory was tested.

You found that religious people really didn’t score higher. He created a questionnaire that was bogus. I’ve critiqued his work quite a bit and had conversations. He decided to try to disprove what I was saying. So he said, okay, I’m gonna toss out my questionnaire. You say it’s too much guilt and shame. I’m just going to ask a bunch of people. And he did three separate studies. Do you believe you’re addicted to it? That’s what he asked.

Just straight up, none of these guilt and shame questions. And guess what he found out? There was no difference between religious people and non religious people believing they were addicted. And guess what he found was the best predictor of believing you’re addicted? How much you use. The more you use, the more you thought you were addicted.

Anne: Right.

Gary: So he basically debunked all his own studies, and he debunked all the other studies that used the same questionnaire. So all this shame being the cause of pornography addiction arises from one place, Joshua Grubb’s nine question questionnaire called the CPUI-9. And then last year he debunked his own questionnaire.

Anne: Does he admit that now? Does he say, oops?

Gary: No, he doesn’t say oops directly. He’s still using his questionnaire. And I actually attended a conference a couple of weeks ago, and he admitted there were problems. He said, well a lot of people think there’s problems with this questionnaire, but we use it anyhow. So he keeps using it. They take these steps that aren’t connected and connect them.

And then they found, wow, when you remove those three questions from the Grubb’s questionnaire that are just about shame and guilt. There’s really no connection to religiousness. So again, they keep finding, looking at this questionnaire, that you need to get rid of these three questions that have nothing to do with addiction. They only had to do something with guilt and shame. And all the headlines really fall apart.

Anne: Right.

Gary: So it’s a big lie out there. You know, you’ve seen my presentation. It’s just a big lie and it continues.

Anne: How can we help wives regain their voice after being silenced by the manipulation of a addict who says you can’t do this, or you can’t do that, because if you do, it’s shame.

Gary: That’s blaming someone else for your own behavior. And that’s just ridiculous, an alcoholic same thing, cigarette smoker, meth user, gambler.

Gary: The shame is internal. It’s an internalized thing of the addict. They have shame because they can’t control use. The addict will feel shame whether the spouse or partner points out they’re using when they said they wouldn’t. And when that person, privately without being discovered, uses without the partner knowing. Shame will occur in those situations. It’s just blaming someone else for your behavior.

Anne: What I want my listeners to know is that you can tell them how you feel. You can be honest. If they accuse you of shaming them, you can be like, uh, no, I am telling the truth. I am religious. So I would say, no, I’m standing for truth and righteousness. Non religious people might say something like, I have specific needs to feel safe in my own home, and I do not feel safe.

Women are terrified to state their needs right now. And I don’t know how to say it. Other than flat out say there is nothing you can say to him that will shame him. He is responsible for his own shame.

Gary: It’s strange, if we step back a little bit and look at the big picture. I think I’ve also heard that in the past, in “addiction recovery” models, they have suggested to the woman that she not shame the partner, that she take responsibility for her behavior. I completely disagree with that. Why is it that with “addiction” or pornography addiction that we’re so caught up in, oh, we cannot shame the partner?

Gary: But with gambling addiction, we wouldn’t have that same response. I don’t see that. Or with alcoholism, you don’t see a lot of the, oh, it’s also the partner’s problem. Maybe you do. Maybe there’s this codependence thing, but I don’t like the codependence model.

Anne: No.

Gary: I don’t like it at all. Every individual must take responsibility for their actions. And that’s my model, and that’s the only model that works. As far as I can see, having monitored these forums where guys are trying to quit for the last 12 years. They take responsibility for their actions.

Anne: Yeah, you don’t hear people saying, my brother does crack cocaine. I didn’t want to shame him. People are like, crack cocaine is wrong. I’m gonna state it out loud. It’s not a good thing. It’s bad if you do it. There’s not this fear of like, oh, I need to walk on eggshells. Also, in my religion, with drugs or other things, there is accountability. But with online expoitation, there’s this, we don’t want to push him away from the church. We want to keep him in the church, so there’s no accountability.

Gary: You know, one thing I’d like to point out when we’re talking about shame. Internet exploitation is set up to trap largely males, though females do get trapped. It’s endless novelty, all these women. We have the supernormal versions of what we call natural rewards in our face. And my site describes how it can trap men into it.

And then the addiction brain changes, and how it’s tough when these brain changes have occurred, like your frontal cortex has changed and it’s hard for you to inhibit behaviors.

Gary: What they also need to know is you need to stop using. These things will not go away. You need to have long periods of not using to reverse the brain changes. So I think, in summary, that if you learn about addiction in general, and how super normal versions of natural rewards like junk food or innappropriate media can grab us. Then maybe you can step back and say, okay, well, this is what’s normal. It happened to me. It’s not good. I don’t want it to happen, but I can see why it did.

Anne: Right.

And so that’s my approach. And now, of course, whether you’re LDS or an atheist, these young men are starting at age 12 or younger. So by the time they decide to marry, they’ve been using it for 10 straight years.

Anne: And I admire the addicts who view it that way.

Gary: Right.

Anne: It’s not surprising to me that this happened. Now I need to move forward and become a healthy person. They’re humble, honest, easy to get along with and peaceful people. The addicts who are not in recovery, however, are faking recovery or trying to blame other people. That’s the population that in general my audience is dealing with every day, all day long.

And so we have to set boundaries around that. So that we can be emotionally and physically safe from STDs or domestic violence. What particular brain changes make addicts more likely to blame their partner?

Gary: Blame their partner, I don’t think you can put that down to a brain change. I think it’s just I feel bad about myself because I can’t control use, so I’m going to project it outwards.

Gary: I mean, this is the human nature we project our internalized state outward to the world. So the internalized state for an addict is I feel crummy, because number one, I’m using. That makes me feel crummy. Number two, I promise people. And I’m breaking the promise. Number three, I am causing damage to myself, my family, and my job. So I am having a negative effect. Since I don’t want to feel bad about myself, I’m gonna blame you, you’re the closest person to me.

Anne: You don’t think it has anything to do with their frontal lobe being damaged? Are there any issues with not being able to connect the dots? I noticed when my ex was using, he got dumb. He was totally, completely illogical.

Gary: That’s true. You’re exactly right. Fifteen studies have found this. The prefrontal cortex, the higher part of our brain, the one that controls impulses. The one that puts the brakes on you, yelling at your spouse or flipping someone off because you’re mad. And plans ahead and sees the consequences of actions, it does become weakened.

I won’t use the term damage, but it does become weakened. Yeah, there are about five or six studies that show less cognitive functioning or poorer cognitive functioning in addicts. In essence, they become dumber, and they have a lot harder time controlling their impulses. So yes, You are right, and it’s great you point this out, that would lead to someone wanting to scream at the partner.

Gary: And what’s interesting is thousands and thousands of self reports from young men who quit. One of the most common benefits is that they think clearer, their brain fog is gone. Their grades go up. And also what’s interesting and related to this is they can feel much more emotion, so they can have much more empathy. So if you’re lacking empathy, that too would cause you to lash out at someone close to you.

Anne: You’re lacking empathy, you’re lacking the ability to control your impulses, and your logic isn’t that sound. So you may blame your partner by saying she makes me feel shame.

Gary: You’re much more hyper reactive to any stressor, and again, lashing out.

Anne: Yeah, it seems like it wouldn’t be that difficult for someone who can’t connect the dots to blame someone else and say, shame causes infidelity? Yes, it’s not my fault. Women are so caught up in finding out how to know if their husband has a sex addiction.Let’s talk about the myth that addiction is an attachment disorder. https://www.btr.org/know-if-your-husband-has-a-sex-addiction/

Gary: I don’t like to label it an attachment disorder. In fact, I don’t like to label any of the addictions an attachment disorder, and there’s a myth out there Johan Hari put out a big TED talk that said, Oh, addiction is an attachment disorder. Again, let’s step back from that. So many addicts and users have wives and spouses, sons and daughters, and family and friends. Yet they continue to use.

Then we look at something that is obviously an addiction, smoking. They don’t study smokers and are more sociable, so they don’t have any attachment disorders. But yet they can’t quit despite severe negative consequences.

Gary: So I don’t even like the idea of it being an attachment disorder. I think that’s too simplistic.

Anne: I agree. I hate it. That’s why I love you so much. I’m like, thank you, because I’m surrounded by this. Shame causes infidelity and attachment disorder, and all these hand wringing things, and it just makes the wives feel terrible.

Gary: Oh yeah, and interesting enough, when they stop using, they have withdrawal symptoms. Now, sometimes it’s really bad withdrawal symptoms. Some guys will report even aches and pains, but it’s anxiety, restlessness, depression, brain fog. And so, in order to get over that, they’ll go back and use.

So both the lashing out, the inability to adapt to stress, cravings when you have stress, and withdrawal symptoms. These are all coming from one thing, a malfunctioning stress system. And chronic overuse caused that, because it occurs with drug addictions also.

Anne: Wow, wow, it makes so much more sense. I did not shame him. No, it’s his emotion. I can’t shame him, I was not capable of doing that. It helps me view it for exactly what it is. And I appreciate that.

Gary: Even though it’s not methamphetamine or cocaine, they’ve done experiments on animals. Certain animals that fall in love with their partner. They’re called voles. So they actually learn the biological neurological mechanisms of falling in love and people by studying voles. What they found is, if you give, voles something that raises dopamine, methamphetamine or cocaine. Well, it raises dopamine as high as possible naturally.

And if you become addicted, It blocks the falling in love mechanisms. At least it is shown in animals. Again, we gotta separate the result of chronic online expoitation use. Rather than going back and saying, Oh, they originally had an attachment disorder, and then they became addicted. No, they became addicted, which interferes with attachment.

Anne: Right, they’re incapable of attachment because they use it.

Gary: Yes. I’ll use an extreme example, a mother addicted to cocaine. She doesn’t even take care of her baby. You can have milder examples. Look, a pornography addict is willing to ruin their marriage to continue to use it. So it is obviously affects their bonding with both their children and their spouse.

Anne: Exactly, so women, you don’t need to try “attaching” to an unsafe person.

Gary: We think about other addictions, the model, of course, is alcoholism. They don’t call that an attachment disorder. They suggest the alcoholic stop using. In fact, when someone who’s not in a relationship goes into AA, they say, don’t get into a relationship for a whole year. You need to focus on your sobriety.

Gary: I monitor many forums, hundreds of thousands of men in relationships. They are quitting. And what they report after 30, 60, 90 days is they see their wife differently. They see their partner differently, they are more in love, they can’t believe they acted the way they did. They just want to shower her with love, finally when they can get it up, it is so much more exciting. They’re thrilled! And their wives are more thrilled, and they feel connected.

Did that person have an attachment disorder, or was it interfering with attachment? I think maybe they’re putting the cart before the horse. Yes, the addict may have trouble attaching. Is that because of their years of chronic and continual use of it? I would say yes, because I’ve observed the changes in how men view the women and experience the emotions, once again, of love and attachment after they quit. That needs to be looked at, addressed and acknowledged.

Anne: Absolutely, their not quitting is the problem. It’s like, oh, I had a relapse every day for seven days. Because I didn’t feel attached to you. But they need to be worthy to attach to! Do you think these therapists are coming up with this attachment stuff, shame stuff, and these people spreading this nonsense are addicts themselves, and they’re just trying to justify stuff and not feel bad?

Gary: All of us humans, because we’re in the human condition, have problems with relationships. You know, unless we’re enlightened, or Jesus, or in love with everyone, we’re gonna have problems.

Gary: I think it’s misguided to focus on that, as the cause of addiction. If the addict and user stop for a long time, you may see a change in their ability to express emotions. For them to feel love coming back at them from their friends, their kids, and especially their spouse. So I think it might be putting the cart before the horse with the attachment disorder model.

Anne: It’s not working for women. They’re trying to support their spouse who’s “in recovery.” Their spouse lies straight to their face. Telling them, yes, I’m in recovery. When he’s not really. And he’s not showing these brain changes that you’re talking about, where they can love their spouse more, or they can connect better because they’ve stopped using. They’re not happening. But the guy claims he’s in recovery.

“Leave me alone. I’m working on my recovery. You don’t have any right to talk to me about my recovery. They say the shame of talking about it causes infidelity, and that “you work on your side of the street.” That sort of thing. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is specifically for wives of users. So that they know exactly what behaviors to look for, to know if they’re safe, rather than just taking the addict’s word for it. While they’re basically just manipulating their wife still and lying.

Gary: Right, there’s something nasty about addiction. It’s called the abstinent effect. This occurs with people who are religious. They’re using, and then they’ll take a break because they’re white knuckling it, and they’ll take a week off, two weeks off.

But what’s interesting is when you stop an actual addiction over the next two to three weeks, your brain changes. And it sprouts more connections to make the cravings even more intense. If you are exposed to something that causes cravings. The brain changes about three weeks out. And if you are under stress or exposed to some image. Your cravings are much stronger than they were a couple days after you quit.

They might watch it for five hours, and then they feel like crap, and then again they project it out on the world. So there’s often this binge cycle with two to three week gaps, and that actually causes more severe binging. So in other words, they need to get further down the line. They need to get 60, 90 days, 120 days away from binging.

Anne: And they need to be honest about where they are too. I think what’s happening right now, at least in my community, is they tell their wife they’re in recovery. Their clergy knows, the family knows, people are talking about it more, and so they know they have to be in recovery. They lie, and they just keep lying. Without the truth, there’s no way for them to get better. They know they’re supposed to be in recovery, and they’re not willing to be honest about their situation in so many cases.

Gary: Well, that’s just a normal addiction pattern.

Anne: Yeah, it’s, it’s not your fault, women. It’s not because you asked him to mash the potatoes, cut the tomatoes, nothing to do with shame, how would that cause infidelity? It has nothing to do with any of that. It is all him.

Gary: Well, yes. And there’s this common myth that a wife, if she just gave a guy enough, he would give it up. But that’s not what happens in practice. We see that everywhere. The guy is compulsively addicted to it. Which means he wants to watch it.

He wants to click from video to video, and no single female can match the novelty, the variety he sees online. So the woman should never blame herself that she’s not enough. Because no one could ever be a thousand different women in a five hour binge.

Anne: You can’t compete with it.

Gary: No, so I think that’s why they turn to love. But if the person continues to use, it’s interfering with the attachment of the addict. So again, it comes back to the responsibility of the addict.

Anne: It doesn’t matter to us, why? If we try to figure out, is he grumpy because of stress at work or grumpy because of what he uses online? Is it because I shamed him? Is it because he went off his medication? Yeah, to us, the only thing that matters is when that abuse starts, that we set boundaries. Although its hard to set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband.

Gary: Yeah.

Anne: Because if we try to figure out why and try to get him help, you need to go to the therapist. You need to do that. We just. get caught in the abuse cycle. The second that starts happening, it’s the time to detach, take a step back, set the boundaries you need and observe, just observe what they’re going to do from a safe distance.

Gary: The common knowledge is you can’t fix an addict, it’s always up to the person.

Anne: Exactly, well you are amazing. Thank you so much. I am so excited to get this out. Yay, it’s my favorite.

Gary: Just a bit of a backstory. In my life, I of course, besides being non religious, didn’t think much about this kind of stuff and got into this observing. You know, year in and year out guys who are trying to quit. What was interesting about them was that there was no discussion about attachment. There was no discussion about blaming the wife, none of them. Literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of posts, and none blame the spouse.

They’re all like, man, I did this, man, I did this, I’ve got to do X to quit. So it’s a real different consciousness that we’ve observed than what you’re experiencing.

Anne: I went through years of thinking it was an attachment disorder. Or that I was shaming him into his infidelity and addiction. I was abused because of it. It serves the perpetrators. It’s not a model that protects victims. People also kept telling me to forgive, now I know the truth about forgiving abuse.

Gary: Well, it’s great that you’re doing this. We’ve had discussions when I was out there of the tremendous need for this because, man, it’s really putting the partners into a bad position.

Gary: It’s causing PTSD, right?

Anne: Yeah, and when you go for help to a therapist who doesn’t know what they’re doing, or clergy and you get further traumatized, it’s worse.

Gary: And clergy everywhere, they just don’t get it, don’t know squat about addiction.

Anne: Yeah, that’s painfully obvious, it’s bad. Gary, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Exploitative material isn’t entertainment, it’s the commercialization of women’s bodies. It’s harmful to everyone. If your husband is on phone all the time, it’s important to know, that what he’s doing on his phone really matters.

If it seems like your husband is on his phone all the time and cares more about what’s on his phone than he does about you, you need support. Attend one of our live, daily Group Sessions TODAY.

If he’s using exploitative materials on his phone, there are the real implications of his actions.

If your husband is on the phone so much that he’s ignoring you or dismissing you or not helping with the family, it’s possible that there’s more going on that meets the eye. His attitudes and choices may actually be emotional abuse. To find out if he is using any of these 19 emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test

Anne: I have Laila Mickelwaite on today’s episode. She has appeared on the podcast before to talk about her nonprofit, Justice Defense Fund, and how they combat the exploitation industry, which victimizes women and children through material often uploaded and viewed by the victims’ husbands or their groomers. Welcome, Laila.

Laila: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.

Anne: I appreciate you. You have done so much in such a short amount of time. And I’m hopeful this will help bring more awareness to women about the possible implications if your husband is on the phone all the time using exploitative material. Let’s start with your new book called Takedown.

Laila: Yes, so excited to finally have that out after years of writing. The reason I wanted to write this book was to get the truth out about P**nhub and its parent company. It has a monopoly on the global industry. I want to get the truth about what has happened to so many victims on the public record, to educate people, activate them, inspire them, and ultimately get more people informed and engaged in the fight for justice, not only against P##nhub.

MindGeek, was recently renamed ILO to try to distance themselves from their toxic image. I really want to help take down and, most importantly, prevent illegal content from distribution on user generated sites. So that’s why I wrote the book. And one hundred percent of all proceeds from the sale of the book go to the Justice Defense Fund.

Laila: To help this cause, the fight for justice, to hold mega abusers accountable, and to really bring needed closure and restitution to victims. So that’s the purpose. You can go to takedownbook.com and there you can purchase the book at really any major online retailer. Penguin Random House publishes it, so you can find audiobook or ebook or hardcover.

You can find it in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. And someone is translating it into Chinese, but yeah, takedownbook.com and there you can also sign the petition. Over 2 million people signed the petition to shut down P##hub and hold its executives accountable from every country in the world.

Laila: This isn’t only for exploited children. Their lives are completely shattered because of the distribution of their trauma on P**hub and its sister sites. But also adult victims, victims assaulted and trafficked. Also victims who have consensually recorded videos and then had it non-consensually distributed, which is very traumatic for them.

Anne: Yeah. It is. We have women in our community who have had that happen, and it’s been horrific. Then they find out their husband was on the phone all the time watching to see if his non-consensual videos got the views on YouTube. It’s awful

Laila: And we know that according to surveys, victims of what we call image-based abuse have almost a 50 percent rate of suicidal ideation. So it’s very traumatizing. What happens is when the videos are uploaded, they become the immortalization of trauma. People download them and then upload again and again. They understand that this will happen in perpetuity for the rest of their lives.

They can’t escape it, and so this is horrific. It was happening en masse on the world’s most popular and trafficked site. When the fight began at the beginning of 2020, just for context, it was the largest and most popular site. But by the end of the Corona virus pandemic, which was in full swing, they had actually become the fifth most trafficked website.

So the fifth most visited website across the entire internet had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits per year, and enough content uploaded every year, every 12 months, that it would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back.

Laila: Owned by a parent company called MindGeek, who with a $362 million loan had rolled up the industry, owning most of the world’s most popular sites and brands. So, what I discovered at the beginning of February 2020, this is about 15 years in the fight against trafficking. And I’m paying attention to the headlines. I’m looking and investigating the industry and its ties to trafficking and abuse.

And I see some really concerning headlines. At the end of 2019, one of them was a 15 year old girl missing for a year. They found her when a user tipped off her distraught mother. He recognized her daughter on the site. She was assaulted in 58 videos sold for profit. And then the Sunday Times had done an investigation. They found dozens of illegal videos within minutes, even children as young as three years old.

And then, like I said, it’s not just children, but also adults. A woman named Nicole Adamando’s partner from New York tortured and assaulted her. He filmed the abuse and uploaded it. She killed him in self-defense but was then sentenced to life in prison and separated from her two young children.. These are just horrifying headlines. That happened at the end of 2019.

As an advocate against abuse and trafficking, of course, these arrested my attention. I had a haunting question that came to mind.

Laila: And that was how in the world did this abuse end up on P**hub? And then, I discovered by testing the upload system, what millions of people already knew, and that was all it took to upload. And this is the reason why the site became infested with illegal content for multiple reasons. The primary reason was that they allowed unlimited upload of user generated images.

Anyone with an mobile phone could film a video anywhere in the world and upload it using just an email address. The platform did not check IDs to verify whether the person in the video was a child, underage teen, or tween. It did not verify consent to ensure the video did not involve an assault or trafficking victim. In under 10 minutes, anyone could upload a video to the site, which led to the platform becoming infested with videos of real crimes.

And that is how all this began, this fight to hold them accountable for what has happened. Now that has destroyed so many victims’ lives.

Anne: Thank you. Thank you so much. Like, you didn’t turn away, you went toward it. And that is like so brave. Your work and the way you’re helping women understand the magnitude of this issue, can’t be underestimated. So thank you. This is why it is so important that we are all more aware. So if a husband is on the phone all the time, you’re saying there’s a real possibility he may be supporting this exploitative industry. Since this effects everyone, what can we do to help.]

Laila: I would just say thank you to everybody who’s been part of this movement. Because it certainly hasn’t been a one-woman fight. I took to Twitter using the hashtag trafficking hub after making that discovery. Everybody who cared caused it. Everybody who saw the injustice and didn’t look away, who shared, who signed.

Who even took to the streets, week after week with signs protesting. In front of the MindGeek headquarters in Montreal, LA, London, South Africa and all over the world. People who joined this fight in a meaningful way. Of the hundreds of survivors who came forward to powerfully tell their stories and raise their voices, even though they were attacked.

And to the journalists, lawmakers, and lawyers, so many people who came together to take on this behemoth of abuse. So from where I sit, I am so grateful to many people who listen to the betrayal trauma podcast, who have signed the petition, who’ve been a part of this. Without all of us coming together, this definitely wouldn’t have been possible.

Anne: That’s how we feel about the work we do here. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’re educating women about what to look for, and we’re building community support in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Through betrayal Instagram posts and betrayal trauma videos.  We reach women, especially if they’re like, “Why is my husband on the phone all the time? Something feels off.” So our focus is helping women feel safe and make progress toward a peaceful life within their own home. But in terms of your work can you share the progress that’s been made since we talked last?

Laila: Yes, huge strides, we still have a ways to go. The fight’s not over, but the story is told in the book Takedown. I wrote it in first person present tense. It starts on the night when I’m testing the upload system, and making this discovery that the site is what I call a crime scene. Not a site, a crime scene. I launched the Trafficking Hub hashtag and launched the petition that started to go viral.

Survivors are coming forward daily. Whistleblowers from the company are coming forward and sharing internal documents and all the ways this company operates that intentionally enable the global distribution and monetization of crime. They’re peeling back the onion layers of complicity of owners.

Anne: Yeah, if he’s on the phone all the time looking at this stuff, how is he paying for it?

Laila: We fought the credit card companies so hard for years. Finally, in 2022, they cut them off once and for all. Discover MasterCard, Visa, join PayPal, cut all ties with the site. Because one consideration drives every decision, that’s profit. What will make them the most profit?

The credit card companies cutting ties was the worst thing that could have happened to them. Over the last four and a half years, they have removed 91 percent of the entire website. They reduced their content from 56 million pieces in 2020 to 5.2 million today. The

Thanks to the participation of so many people, Financial Times called this probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history. Because these were unverified videos, meaning they had no idea if they were children, teens, victims of assault, trafficking, or image based abuse. They had no clue. And so many of them were criminal content. And so they were forced to take down that much of the site.

The CEO and the COO were forced to resign. The secret majority shareholder of the company, who had been hiding his identity from the public for years, was found. And he was exposed and located. And today he’s being sued by dozens of victims. Nearly 300 victims are suing ****hub and its parent company in 25 lawsuits, including multiple certified class actions for tens of thousands of child victims.

Laila: And the U.S. federal government has criminally charged them for intentionally profiting from trafficking. And sold as a distressed asset to a disgustingly named private equity firm. It was hastily concocted, and they named themselves Ethical Capital Partners, but this is what’s happened so far. And we hope to see full justice, meaning victims are provided the restitution, that we see full criminal prosecution.

Ultimately, we’d like to see them shut down completely to send a message to others that not only bring justice to victims. But to send a message to anyone who would operate like them, that this impunity, this exploitation for profit, will just not be tolerated. And hopefully that can deter future abusers. Because if a husband is on the phone all the time using pornography, it indicates he’s involved with the abuse of these women. As a result of all of this, what we really want to see.

We want to see agent consent verification policies for all user generated sites. To prevent this from happening in the future. They’ve refused to do it for so many years. They set up the business model to profit from unrestricted amounts of content. Because the way they make money on the site is by selling advertising impressions. So on this site alone, they were selling 4. 6 billion ad impressions on the site every day.

And in order to sell that many ad impressions on the site, they have to have massive amounts of traffic coming to the site. And in order to have massive amounts of traffic, they have to have inventory to show up in Google to drive those results. So they have to have so much content in order to drive that traffic.

Laila: And so they don’t want to limit content or any friction in uploading. They want it free for all. Upload whatever you want. They didn’t care what is being uploaded. They just wanted videos, which actually were crime scene videos. So that’s why they resisted for so long until even September of 2024, after all this happened. They finally said, and we will have to see what’s going to happen if they’re actually going to do it properly.

But they said they’ll start to verify the ID of the individuals in new videos uploaded to the site. But they still have to account for 5 million videos uploaded, without verifying who’s in them and whether they consented to that being uploaded. So we’re demanding the rest come down.

Anne: Wow, sorry, it’s so intense. That anyone could be educated about this even a little bit and say that money is more important than a victim’s emotional, and psychological safety is insane. It’s like shocking. The final step in this true crime story is to legally and financially hold the founders accountable. So that others don’t replicate this business model. And then I have a follow up question about the new buyers.

Laila: Ethical Capital Partners, yeah, the new owners. One of the things that’s so important in this fight, and I’m so proud of, is the survivors who courageously came forward. To personally sue by name, not just the corporation, but the individual owners. And I’ll just share the story of one particular survivor who has just led the charge on doing this.

Laila: And her name is Serena, and she was an innocent 14 year old from Bakersfield, California. Who had videos of her abuse uploaded again and again. They had a download button on every video, so anybody could possess these videos on their devices. And then upload them again and again to the internet. She would beg them to take these videos down.

And if they would even answer her, you know, most of the time they would ignore her, she said. But then if they answered, they would hassle her to prove she was a victim, prove she was underage in the videos. And even if she could get them down, they would just go up again. And this sent her on a spiral of trauma and despair. She dropped out of school because she was being bullied. And she got addicted to drugs to numb the pain. She tried to kill herself multiple times.

And then wound up homeless, living out of a car. But today, Serena has told her story, not only that, but she sued. Also its owners individually, the CEO, the COO, the secret majority shareholder exposed. Not only that, she’s also suing Visa for their participation in all this, for their processing of her criminal abuse. This is because if a husband is on phone all the time using pornography, he’s abusing these victims too.

And she’s suing the hedge funds that gave MindGeek the money to have their business in the first place. Colbeck Capital, Redwood Capital, and dozens of survivors are doing the same, suing the individual owners. I think that is so important. It sends a message to those who make the decisions. You can’t hide behind a corporate veil. You can’t just shield yourself with a corporation.

Laila: That these decisions that you enact, because at the end of the day, these are policies that come from the top. That they will be personally responsible for that. And I think when that happens, it will create a huge deterrent effect. Where the owners of these companies will be afraid to make those same decisions because they will know. That they are not immune from accountability.

So I think that is so important. And with the new owners, they’ve called themselves Ethical Capital to try to distance themselves and whitewash history. And they could name themselves something else and maybe try to get people to forget. But the victims will never forget what happened to them. They’ll live with that for the rest of their lives. And they’re currently fighting for justice, even against the new owners.

And one thing that’s disturbing to know is that the new face of the company is a man named Solomon Friedman. He’s a criminal defense attorney and has spent his career defending criminals. Time Magazine reported he has had significant experience defending criminals and those who are abusers. He wants to do the same for this company. However, we’re going to keep fighting to ensure the truth is told.

And even to this day, like I said, there’s unverified content on the site. And there are illegal videos still up, even after all this happened. So we’re just going to keep sharing the truth.

Anne: Yeah. Because maybe women don’t know that if there husband is on the phone all the time using this exploitative materials they’re creating demand for these videos. With the credit card companies cutting off people’s ability to use credit cards on these sites. Are people using crypto now?

Laila: Yes, they can use crypto, so they can still transact, unfortunately. When it was sold to the new owners, was sold as a distressed asset because they lost their credit card companies. Yes, they still can transact using crypto.

Anne: It just goes more and more criminal, more underground. I’m not gonna argue that going underground is good for it, right? Less people will use it. If a husband is on the phone all the time using it, it victimizes these women.

Laila: True, it’s so interesting. You said that, because that’s what I hear from victims themselves. They say the most traumatizing part of having these videos distributed is that they’re distributed on the surface web. Where Google crawls. Some of these victims have had their names attached to the videos, their school name. Their town where just anybody can find them. So when they go to the grocery store, they’re standing in line wondering who has seen my assault video?

Because it is on the mainstream, most popular sites in the world, accessible to anyone. And like you said, even accessible to children, which is so horrifying to consider. That any child can click a few buttons on a device could end up on the home page. Where there have been criminal videos, even on the home page itself, side by side by real assault videos.

And having a child be exposed to that trauma as their introduction to sexuality, as their education is so frightening.

Anne: That’s abuse.

Laila: It is abuse. It’s a form of abuse. I talk about the need to protect children on both sides of the screen from viewing this content and also being in the content.

Laila: And I’m so encouraged by this wave of momentum that we’ve seen recently, where states are starting to pass age verification laws for users. It’s interesting, because they have aggressively opposed age verification for users. And they have actually shut themselves down in states that have enacted age verification. Or made them liable when a child views their site. So in some cases, states have said, parents could sue the company for not having age verification in place.

And in that case, they’ve shut themselves down because they don’t want to lose the money. They don’t want to pay. And we even have the senior community manager is on the record saying what the real reason is. They cite like privacy concerns, this is a privacy and free speech issue. When the senior community manager said this costs us money.

And that it would basically be devastating to their revenue. And so, that just shows it’s like this in every case. They’re putting profit before the safety of people. In this case, the safety of children, not to have to witness a crime.

Anne: I think Utah passed that. But still, if a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it funds this revenue.

Laila: Yeah, there are a number of states, Alabama did and Texas. It’s actually going to the Supreme Court, because in Texas they passed the law, and then they refused to comply. They were sued by the state of Texas. Then they countersued to stop the law from being enacted, they lost. And then they appealed, and then they lost. And now they’re protesting it.

So it was a free speech coalition. They was one of the plaintiffs in the case to appeal, and then it’s going to be heard at the Supreme Court.

Laila: I think the date is January 15. And so they’ll consider whether this is constitutional to enact age verification for users of these kind of sites.

Anne: Are any senators or anyone consistently voting against these type of bills?

Laila: I don’t have anyone voting against these types of bills. What I’ve seen is mostly unanimous support from both sides. Bipartisan support, because the ones opposed to this are the industry people. Because it costs them money. It costs them traffic. And the financial incentive there is to oppose it. But anybody who has common sense, who cares about the safety of children, doesn’t want children to access the sites.

And some people say we need device level verification, where that would be Apple, for example. That would instill in the device itself safety for children not to access adult sites. And then some people say, no, it should be at the website level. And I’m saying it should be both. When we are trying to implement safety when we’re driving a car. You have a seatbelt, a roll bar, an airbag, and various ways to protect.

I think in this case, it’s both, and yes, do device level verification for kids to protect them. But then also require these sites to have third party age verification for users of those sites.

Anne: I’m interested in seeing who starts citing free speech issues and not voting for this. If there is anybody, hopefully it will be unanimous. But if there is, I would like to call them out and have people know that this is the person who voted against this. Because like, Oh, here’s somebody who likes pedophiles. I’m interested in seeing how that shakes out.

Laila: Yeah, and just to clarify, so there’s the age verification laws that we need to see for those accessing the videos. And then there’s the age verification we need for those in the videos. It seems like there’s even less opposition to age verification for those in the videos than the user side. Because some people say, Oh, I don’t want to give over identifying information to access this kind of site.

It’s my right to access a site without having to do that. Which isn’t a great argument, because people give over identifying information to shop on Amazon, to use PayPal, to go on Airbnb.

Anne: Yeah, but they don’t care if people know they bought something on Amazon. If a husband uses his phone all the time to view this material, and doesn’t want his wife to know he’s using it, he’ll lie to her. These types of exploitative men think it’s their right that nobody knows. They should access this without their wife knowing, because if their wife knows, she might be like, I’m not into this.

And he wants to maintain power and control in his own home by controlling the narrative of who he is and what his character is. So he does not want his wife to find out. A husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, funds victimization.

Laila: Well, then I think those who oppose it need to be clear and honest. And say, it’s not that I care about my privacy. This is not a speech issue. This is, I don’t want anyone to know that I’m going to this site. It’s generally not a privacy issue. It’s privacy about this issue.

Anne: Totally, but men with an exploitative character will never tell the truth. When a husband is on phone all the time, using pornography, exploiting women, they never say, I want to lie to my wife and live a double life, so I’m going to vote against this bill. They will never say that. They’ll always cite free speech, and say they don’t want government intervention.

I don’t know what they’ll say, but they’ll never say, I want to lie to my wife about who I am. Just talking about the man who would claim free speech stuff. It’s not free speech to assault a child, so no.

Laila: That’s actually true, because when we’re talking about free speech, we’re assuming these sites are distributing legal content. We know that much of the content distributed, because we have figures, victims, cases, and evidence. That a significant portion of what is on these user generated sites. Children can freely access illegal content, which is contraband.

It is not an idea, an expression. It’s not any form of legal material. There’s no protection for that kind of content to be distributed. I think that’s why it’s important to make sure that we are talking about the reality of these sites. Because people, perhaps judges, and those considering these cases might have this idea that this is Playboy, right?

That this is the content you might’ve seen 50 years ago or 20 years ago. But with the advent of user generated content and unrestricted uploads, so much of it is actually criminal content. That’s important for them to consider. What is the material being distributed on these sites?

Laila: And children need to be protected from viewing. But adult victims and children need to be protected from being used. If a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it produces demand for these videos. We’ve had a law in place in the U.S. since 1988 called U.S. C 2257, which traditionally governed the brick and mortar industry. We think about Exploitation Valley in L. A. and the way studios had produced it.

This required them to do age verification and record keeping. And in fact, the Department of Justice could at any time call for the inspection of those documents. And if they didn’t have them, it was actually a criminal offense. However, now with this new model of free user generated distribution. They’ve just completely gone around that important regulation, so we need to update our laws.

Anne: Do you know of any victim who has used material on these sites or discoveries from her husband on the phone all the time as proof in her own assault case? Not to sue, but criminally to charge her rapist or someone who coerced her?

Laila: Yes, and it’s not her in the case that I’m going to cite right now. I mean, there are other cases of hers, but this is a him. There was a case of a 12 year old boy from Alabama drugged, overpowered and assaulted by a man named Rocky Shea Franklin. And he filmed the abuse, and he uploaded 23 of those videos. Using titles that indicated this was abuse of a child. They were sold, in a profit sharing relationship with the site. Police located the devices.

When they went on the devices, they found he had uploaded them.

Laila: And they saw the videos on the site. They documented them as evidence they used against him. He uploaded the videos of the victim. He’s in prison for 40 years. So, yes, that has definitely happened in more than one instance, where the evidence of the crime were the videos.

Anne: I wonder if more victims could do that. I know of at least a handful of women in our community who have had videos of them uploaded by their husbands. Like the woman you talked about at the beginning of this episode, and they didn’t know about it. Another’s husband is on phone all the time using pornography, victimizing women.

Laila: A recent case shocked the world, horrifying people but also inspiring them with her bravery in holding her husband accountable.. Her name is Giselle Pellicott, and she’s in France. She’s over 70 years old.

Anne: I did see this. It’s amazing.

Laila: Yeah, I can’t believe how brave she is. And I completely understand when victims want to be Jane Doe’s because I 100% understand that. So not to say that those who are out there as Jane Doe’s are not courageous because they are. But Giselle’s out there in this public trial. She demanded it be a public trial, her husband actually drugged her. And when she was unconscious, he would recruit men to come and assault her, and he would film it.

The police gathered thousands of videos that he had taken, showing how he recruited men from the community.

Laila: Lawyers, policemen, doctors, whatever, not just like guys who are just in their basements. Like you would imagine would do this, but guys who were answering these ads that he’s putting out. To come and assault his wife as she was unconscious. So anyway, she’s having a public trial, and yeah, the evidence of the crime is there.

He recorded the actual abuse. And one of the things she insisted, which was shocking to many people, was to have the court actually play some of those videos. So that she could shame. Her idea was to put the shame of what happened on the abuser, not the victim. So they could sit there and be ashamed to see what they did in front of the court. Which was like wow, like people were like, I can’t believe she did that.

As this story went public and gained viral traction worldwide, it inspired people everywhere. Individuals at the Justice Defense Fund have shared that similar incidents happened to them. Their husbands or partners drugged them unconscious, assaulted them, and later uploaded evidence, such as videos, to devices or websites.

But this is horrifying that this is not a one off case. This is actually happening.

Anne: I’ve talked with many trafficking experts, and the most likely person to traffic you is your boyfriend, right? Or even maybe your husband. Men who are intent on trafficking, groom you from the beginning. And many women end up marrying their trafficker. This is why it is so important to pay attention when a husband is on phone all the time-to know what he’s doing on there.

Anne: They don’t realize traffickers targeted them from the beginning. Traffickers often pose as boyfriends to groom their victims, sometimes marrying them and manipulating them into being filmed while having sex. Even if he’s your husband, and you don’t believe he’s intending to do harm, he’s still trafficking. And that may be what he’s doing when he’s on phone all the time. His online choices could harm other people.

Laila: Yeah, they call it the lover boy method of trafficking. It is common and used all the time. I don’t know if anyone has heard the powerful story of Annie Lobert. She believed she loved this person, her abuser. It’s a powerful story. It does happen often, and they use it as a tactic and method, and prey on that vulnerability. And it’s horrible, but yes, many times it’s familial, someone you know and trust.

Anne: There might be a woman listening today, who is currently experiencing this, and wondering if their boyfriend or husband is on phone all the time viewing exploitative material. If that’s the case, what would you say to her?

Laila: They can go to the Justice Defense Fund website, justicedefensefund.org. And there is an intake form where you can fill out a few questions. You don’t have to talk in detail about what happened to you. You fill out a help form and connect with a trauma-informed, licensed representative who advocates at the Justice Defense Fund.. They’ll connect with you, hear your story, and help with whatever the next steps might be from there.

Anne: Thank you so much for your amazing work. I appreciate you so much.

Laila: Likewise, thank you so much for having me on and for this conversation, and I hope we can stay in touch.

If you’ve discovered your husband’s lies or infidelity, will marriage counseling help? What you need to know about the best marriage counseling near me for couples.

Did you know that most couples who are seeking counseling are dealing with emotional abuse? To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Are you considering marriage counseling because you just discovered your husband’s been lying to you. If you recognize that couple therapy is contraindicated for your specific situation, but are desperate for solutions, or at least support, please recognize that your emotional safety is the priority.

Rather than focusing on helping your partner recognize their harmful behavior, you can focus on establishing emotional and physical regulation and safety for yourself.

Consider:

It can be devastating to realize that addiction marriage counseling will likely make the situation worse.

To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: It’s just me today. So many women wonder about marriage counseling. Women in our community often ask our coaches or ask me, “I need a good couple therapist. Who should I go to?” And that’s what I’m going to talk about today. When it comes to women seeking couple therapy or marriage counseling. These are the two scenarios I see the most often.

Anne: Number one when a woman is unaware that her husband secretly uses explicit material, has affairs or hooks up with women from online dating apps. Usually the woman isn’t aware that her husband is doing this. She just knows something’s wrong in her marriage. When couples are having problems, people usually recommend marriage counseling. And because this is the most common recommendation, of course, she’s going to think that marriage counseling will help.

Anne: And number two, the wife convinces the husband to go to therapy, his own therapy. But then when she doesn’t see a difference or feels like he’s getting worse. She’ll think, well maybe if I’m involved, then I’ll see the improvements I’m looking for.

Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. And abuse educators like me don’t advise marriage counseling in any way, shape or form. Some women are confused, because the rare abuse program asks for your involvement, meaning the victims. So the therapist can get the truth about what’s going on. Why does a so-called good abuse program want the wife’s involvement? It’s because they know that the abuser will continue to lie and manipulate the therapist.

They also know that if she’s not involved, he’s not going to go. Which is like the biggest red flag right there. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims on my podcast and in our community. And due to their reports about the harm done to them in both scenarios. I don’t advise. Any of the following: couple therapy, marriage counseling, suggesting your husband get therapy, or being involved in his treatment in any way.

Even if you have your therapist, and your abusive husband’s therapist talk to each other. I do not recommend that either. I’ll talk about what I do recommend near the end of the podcast. It’ll become really obvious why I don’t recommend marriage counseling, ever.

Anne: As I talk about the five things that need to be true in order for marriage counseling to be effective.

Anne: Everyone involved needs to know the truth about the source of the conflict and agree on the source of the conflict.

So in on a regular marriage counseling situation. It might be. That he likes golf and she hates golf. And that’s it. That is the source of the conflict, but he golfs a lot, and she doesn’t want him to golf a lot. And he’s like, yeah, that is the source of the conflict. I mean, the truth is out there.

Anne: Both partners willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution to the conflict without needing to be convinced of it by someone else. So no one is trying to impose their interpretation on one of the other people. And they both willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution.

Anne: Both partners have healthy expectations for the relationship. So in regular marriage counseling, it might be that spending two nights together a week is healthy. But expecting your partner to be with you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is not healthy.

Anne: Both partners have consistently demonstrated they actually do. So this is something that you’ve seen with your eyeballs, not something that they talk about. They actively actually do childcare, household chores, and relationship management independently. Without prompting or oversight from the other. So this would mean he takes care of the kids without being asked, without being managed.

He can do household chores without being managed. He takes the initiative to actively participate in the marriage, in his child’s life. And the upkeep of the household, grocery shopping, cleaning. You know, all that stuff.

Anne: The reason the couple will attend marriage counseling is to improve their communication skills, their conflict resolution skills or intimacy skills. It’s not to address his abuse, his lying, or his affairs.

So if a man is a explicit materials user and has affairs, inappropriately texts coworkers, or been lying to you for years. If he’s been blaming you to manipulate you and exploit you and you have betrayal trauma from infidelity. None of those five things I just said can be true.

Number one, because he’s purposefully lying in manipulating you and everyone else to avoid the true source of the conflict, his explicit content use, his lies or his double life.

Number two, he’s never willingly honestly, or humbly identified, that he is the source of the conflict. But his choices are the source of the conflict. In fact, he’s been hiding it from you on purpose. Gaslighting you so that you don’t discover it.

Number three, due to his explicit content use. He doesn’t have healthy expectations. If he expects you to look like the women in the content look, that’s not healthy. If he views you as an object, he’ll expect you to do what he wants. Like don’t ask questions. That’s not a healthy expectation. If he’s an exploiter, he’s going to see the relationship as a series of transactions.

He goes to work, you give him it, or he brings home a paycheck. And you manage the children in household chores, the relationship, and everything else. That’s a transactionship. That’s not a relationship.

Number four, if he has an exploitative character. The likelihood of him without you managing it for him, managing childcare, household tasks, any of that stuff, grocery shopping. The likelihood of him repairing the relationship, planning dates, or starting hard conversations is almost zero. He might do these things to groom you while he’s trying to achieve a goal. But once that goal was achieved, he’ll stop. So he doesn’t consistently do any of these things.

Anne: And number five, as you’re thinking about couple therapy in this scenario, if you’re thinking about marriage counseling. You don’t want to go to therapy to improve communication skills, because your communication is fine. Your conflict resolution skills, your intimacy skills are fine. So, if you’re not thinking, Hey, I need to improve my intimacy skills or my conflict resolution.

If you just want to stop him from abusing you, or you want to figure out what’s going on. Then number five is not true. And r addiction marriage counseling will not work for you. Unfortunately, even if none of the five requirements for couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling are true. She may not know that he’s lying.

Couple therapists don’t do emotional or psychological abuse screenings before they start couple therapy. And they don’t do abuse screenings for addiction marriage counseling. Most of the time, a couple therapist doesn’t know what is going on, and neither does the wife. And this situation is going to make it worse. A regular couple therapist only has one job. It’s to help the couple improve communication so they can resolve their conflicts.

A man with an exploitative character is never interested in resolving conflicts. Although he may talk like he is, that’s actually a way that he’s going to continue to manipulate a victim. If he’s only interested in exploiting you, he’s going to see this whole situation as this perfect setup to continue to lie and manipulate you through the therapist. So I just talked about the five things that need to be true for couple therapy.

Anne: They apply equally to addiction marriage counseling. Which is why no one ever should go. Because those five things are never true if there’s addiction. When it comes to classic couple therapy, there are five things that guarantee a couple therapist will enable his abuse. And things will get worse for you. It will actually put your marriage at a greater risk for divorce.

Because his abuse will escalate during couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling. And if he starts to escalate due to addiction marriage counseling, divorce might be your only option for safety. So you need to take this seriously. If you want to avoid divorce. I take this extremely seriously, because on a very personal level, divorce did not solve my ex-husband’s abuse problem.

He continued to abuse me and my children emotionally, psychologically, and financially for eight years after our divorce. So I get it that women don’t want to consider divorce. And I’ll tell you my personal story of what happened with couples therapy in a minute.

If you want to avoid divorce, you want to avoid an escalation of his abuse for obvious reasons. That’s the number one reason you never want to go to couple therapy. Or even desire couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. When it comes to regular couple therapists, those trained in abuse will refuse to treat couples who meet the following criteria.

Anne: What I’ve noticed is they’re either not trained in abuse, so they don’t know to refuse couples who meet this criteria. Or they think there’s an exception. Women tell me so many stories. A couple therapist or addiction marriage counselor thought he or she was this gift to humanity. This pride caused them to bend the rules. Because they thought they’d been more successful than they actually were.

So in the 300 interviews I did with betrayal trauma victims. They report they went to a addiction marriage counseling. And then they actually thought it worked for a minute. These women were pretty happy in the moment. And then they stopped going to therapy. And then they find out six months, a year, or two years later. That the husband was lying and manipulating the entire time. And it’s so traumatic to find that out.

And so when she discovers that the addiction marriage counseling worsened it. He was able to groom her and manipulate her even worse than before. She usually doesn’t go back to that same therapist, because even the thought of that therapist is so traumatic for her. It’s painful to her to even think that she just spent all that money and time, and it didn’t do anything. So she usually doesn’t go back and say, hey, this didn’t work.

So these therapists, all they know is that she left happy. They don’t know the end of the story. Alternatively, women tell me all the time that they came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, started listening to the podcast. And they were like, this is kind of extreme. I don’t think this is my situation. So then they went to a couple therapy, and had a horrific experience.

Anne: They return to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like five years later. And let me know, oh, my word, this is what happened. And they tell me their stories. So women come back to Betrayal Trauma Recovery all the time to tell me. Whereas I don’t think your typical therapist has that scenario. So they just think they were successful.

I find the attitude of addiction marriage counselors, that they can fix an abuser offensive. They don’t understand abuse. In that case, or they think the criteria I’m about to tell you doesn’t apply to them. Which is a huge red flag. And if they don’t have a screening process for this type of abuse, it’s unethical. So a couple therapist should refuse to treat any couple who meets any of these five criteria.

Number one, if there is abuse of any type, emotional, psychological, sexual, physical, financial, any abuse whatsoever present. Lying, manipulation and gaslighting are abuse. So if your husband lied about his use, he’s been abusing you. And that disqualifies you from addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But if you don’t know he’s been lying and you go to couple therapy, do you see the problem here?

If he’s been lying to you about his use or his infidelity. He’s not going to suddenly tell the truth to a couple therapist. Similarly, if he admits to the explicit content use or you find it. And so you’re like, hey, let’s go to addiction marriage counseling. You’re in the same boat.

Anne: Either way, there’s been abuse. But the addiction marriage counselor will not see it as an abuse issue. They’re going to treat it as an addiction issue.

Number two, any couple where one or both of the partners has a mental illness or addiction problem. Couple therapy is never indicated. So even if you don’t want to label his addiction as abuse, this still disqualifies you as a couple from addiction marriage counseling. Addiction marriage counseling should not even exist. It should not be a thing. Anyone doing it is unethical. Because you’ve got abuse, addiction, and maybe a mental illness issue.

Let’s look at the victim for just a second, even if she’s been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder or depression, or sometimes bipolar. Many times she’s diagnosed with these things because she’s an abuse victim, and they don’t factor that in. So rather than saying, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re just an abuse victim. Let’s get you to safety. She gets a diagnosis. Every therapist should know that if mental illness is part of the mix, couple therapy is contraindicated.

So if there’s any mental illness in the mix that’s diagnosed or known, or if he’s a known addict, that couple therapist should immediately stop couple therapy. And if you ever have a therapist who says, hey, he’s a addict, and so you need addiction marriage counseling, that’s the biggest red flag in the universe.

Anne: Let’s go back to this mental illness issue for just a minute. Some experts say two thirds of addicts have a mental illness now. I don’t care about this part, because all I care about is how it affects her and to her it’s abuse. But the stats are 44% of addicts have a personality disorder or traits of a personality disorder. And so some therapists will be like, oh, there’s a mental illness. Let’s treat that. I’ll tell you why I’m not a big fan of that in just a minute.

They might say to you, you are experiencing PTSD symptoms, which is true. However, do they say you’re experiencing PTSD symptoms, but you’re fine? You’re totally normal. You’re acting exactly as you should be acting as an abuse victim. Because that’s what they should tell you. Instead, if they say you have some kind of mental illness because of your PTSD. Then you would be disqualified from couple therapy, which would sure disqualify you from addiction marriage counseling.

Number three, if there is a lack of empathy, then a couple therapy is contraindicated. This is where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to understand the other person’s perspective. If empathy is lacking, many therapists who have this, like I can fix him complex, will try to teach him to have empathy. They’ll give him scripts and do empathy training. Like a fake it till you make it sort of approach.

That is so dangerous, then abusers learn to mimic empathy, but they don’t actually feel it. So they understand the mechanics, and then they’ll use it as a weapon to groom you. And wives come back and report over and over that this type of therapy made their husband a super abuser.

Anne: He began to talk in very empathetic ways and sounded better, but it just felt so cruel because his behavior hadn’t changed. He was doing it in ways that were so much more insidious and almost evil. Like we’ve had women come back and say he turned into the scariest person ever.

Because everyone else was like, look how healthy and wonderful he is. And he’s so empathetic and loving. He used scripts from couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling to manipulate more. And that is one of the most distressing things that women report.

Number four, if one person has engaged in a relationship outside the marriage. So like explicit content, which is a relationship with hundreds of women outside the marriage. Emotional affairs, then couple therapy is always contraindicated.

Number five, if one person doesn’t want to reconcile or solve problems. So a man with an exploitative character, he never has the goal of solving problems. His only goal is to get what he wants from her, not to build something together. So if he’s got that type of character, whether you know it or not, couple therapy will escalate the situation.

As reported by the women I interviewed, some therapists will say that if an addict or abuser has had a certain period of sobriety, or hasn’t been abusive, or has been in treatment for his addiction for his abuse for a year. Or a certain amount of time, it’s okay to start couple therapy or marriage counseling. And they report it did not go well, even after a period of sobriety or treatment.

Anne: In fact, my own experience illustrates this well. I had been dealing with an addict husband going to his own individual addiction therapist for years. We’d never tried addiction marriage counseling or couple of therapy before. Because I’d always refused. And things seemed like they had gotten a little better. They hadn’t. It was more like I was the frog in the pot, you know, I didn’t know that he had learned to lie better.

But because I thought things had improved since he’d been doing therapy and going to 12 step, he admitted he was an addict. And then he said the reason why things aren’t going perfectly yet was because we needed to go to couple therapy. There were some things that “we needed to work out”. He’d been wanting me to do couple therapy the entire time.

Sorry, side note, just yesterday I had one victim ask me if I knew he wanted to do it? I knew it was a bad idea, and that was my best test for whether the course of action was safe. Which kind of makes me smile now. Because my husband wanted to do couple therapy at the time, he was so excited. I remember when I agreed, he literally leaped off the couch and was like, awesome. Everything’s going to get better now. So we did 19 addiction marriage counseling sessions.

And things only escalated. I think it’s because he thought now’s the time to unleash all my resentments toward her. All my feelings based on all my erroneous thought processes. Because he hadn’t changed his abusive thinking at all. And he wanted the couple therapist to cram it into me.

Anne: Because he was like, I can’t convince her that she’s got these problems, but now I can get the therapist to do it. And he became more and more abusive to the point where he hurt me and was actually arrested. And the court gave him a no contact order.

Now couples therapists ethically, to maintain their licensure, must operate under the assumption of safety and equality. And in a situation with betrayal and addiction, there is no equality. Lies create an abusive power dynamic, because one person has more power than the other, because they have more information. So any couple therapist who does not see lying as an abuse issue creates a situation unequal and unsafe.

And so they’re not maintaining those ethical standards of operating with safety and equality. Okay, let’s move on to the second scenario I introduced at the beginning, when wives avoid addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But I think his individual therapy isn’t going that well. And maybe if she talks to his therapist, the outcome will improve.

When I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies, one of the things that was like rattling around in my mind was about one well-known addiction marriage counseling practitioner. I’d heard accounts of his abuse to women. He would require her to sign a contract that she wouldn’t leave the marriage for a year. That she couldn’t use anything she learned in addiction marriage counseling in a divorce. He made her sign a contract, stuff was really bad.

I’ve heard a lot about this guy. He would tell the addicts or the abusers. If she’s angry, don’t worry. We can work with that. That’s not a problem, the only thing we can’t use is your wife’s apathy.

Anne: Knowing that he thought he could use the woman’s emotions to benefit this himself. And the only thing he felt he could not use to the advantage of the abuser was apathy. That rattled around in my mind for a long time.

And that concept is well explained in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop outlines why it’s not safe to have your therapist talk to your husband’s therapist. Or to participate in your husband’s therapy as an observer, or to meet with a therapist with your husband. Even if the therapist says it’s not couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. Which seems like word salad to me.

So after explaining to you all the reasons why a couple therapy is sometimes counter-indicated, and addiction marriage counseling is always contra-indicated. You’re probably thinking. We don’t fit the criteria, and he continues to harm me. So, what do I do?

I outline exactly what to do in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Because it’s different than anything you’ve heard before, I wanted to visually show this to you. The Living Free Workshop is 55 video lessons. The total runtime of all 55 lessons is only two hours and 20 minutes. On average, they’re only three minutes each. I broke it up into tiny bite-sized pieces. The shortest video is 28 seconds, the longest is six minutes.

There’s a question between each lesson that you can either answer. If you want to process it on a really deep level, or you can just like put an X in the box and push next. Then you also process the information with the free workbook that comes with it. It’s a PDF, a beautiful two page spread.

Anne: And so if you want it in color, you can get it printed at like Kinko’s or something. It’s more expensive. The cheapest way to print it is to order it on Amazon. It’ll come quickly, or you can print it at your house either way. Just make sure if you print it, print it double-sided.

The Living Free Workshop will help determine your husband’s character. And help you know what to do. If you take the Living Free Workshop and you’re like, oh wait, he’s actually not abusive. Then couple therapy might be an option for you. And that would be great.

But addiction marriage counseling should never be on the table, because it never meets the criteria for a couple therapy, ever. I don’t even know why it exists. If you’ve enrolled in The Living Free Workshop, I’d love to know what you thought about it.

If you’ve just discovered your husband’s dark secrets, most women don’t know where to turn for help. If you’re wondering what to do when husband betrays your trust, here are 3 things to consider.

Most men who betray their wives use emotional abuse tactics long before their lies are discovered. The first thing to do after your husband betrays your trust is to become educated about emotional and psychological abuse. To find out if your husband used any of the 19 different types of emotional abuse before or after you discovered his lies, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

After you’ve discovered your husband’s betrayal, it’s imperative that you learn strategies to protect yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women thought, boundary, and communication strategies to protect yourself emotionally and psychologically after you discover your husband’s lies.

If your husband broke your trust, getting the right help is very important. Sadly, some people blame women who have been hurt. Therapists or clergy might say it’s her fault because she didn’t meet his needs or wasn’t easy to talk to. People often blame the victim, but this isn’t right. Victims of betrayal need support and kindness, not blame.

Some women find out their husband lies about how he spends his time. He might spend hours watching pornography. Others find out he lies about money. Some even discover he lied about having an affair with a co-worker.This type of betrayal of trust is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. You’re not alone. If you need a safe place to talk about what happened, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Anne: I have a guest on today’s episode. She’s going to share her story. She actually wrote a book called Deceptive Liaisons, and we’re gonna call her Samantha, because that’s her pen name. As you’ll hear from her story, her husband betrayed her trust.

Anne: Okay, so Samantha, welcome. Thank you for sharing your story with us today.

Samantha: Thank you for having me.

Anne: When did you first suspect that something wasn’t quite right in your relationship?

Samantha: When I first caught him with exploitative material, he said, all guys do it. And I’m like, it doesn’t make me feel good. Yeah, he had hidden apps like the app would fake like a calculator, but you put in certain numbers and it opens up to private pictures. And he’s like, Oh, it’s not about you. It’s just, something that all guys do. But when it affected our intimacy, that’s when I questioned, what’s going on here?

He told me he had a big addiction. He did say this was something he should have told me before we were married. And he repeatedly promised he didn’t want to lose me over it. And he was going to get help. We were intimate, but it was very few and far between. And he would say, Oh, I have low testosterone or just make excuses.

He’d always have his phone with him and take it in the bathroom with him in the middle of the night. And, again, I thought it was exploitative material.

Anne: That makes sense. Did you realize that there was emotional and psychological abuse happening?

Samantha: I mean, there was gaslighting and manipulation, my husband betrayed my trust. So part of you looks inward. Why am I not good enough? What have I done? You question, what could I have done differently or what am I doing that I shouldn’t be doing?

Samantha: So, about one in the morning of my birthday, I couldn’t sleep. So I went downstairs to watch TV. I started thinking, I’m just going to check his email. I thought I’d find something. Everything looked pretty normal in the email. Communication between us, friends, work. But when I clicked on archive, the first email was a reservation for a hotel on a business trip the week prior. But the next archived email was a reservation for two for the following night.

And I was confused, because he had asked to go out for drinks with someone after work. He did this regularly. And that’s another reason why I didn’t suspect, because he always came home for the night. But I didn’t realize you can check in at 3 and be home by 11. Anyway, I was shocked. I was thinking, well, maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it’s a surprise for me.

So I got ready for work, brought him coffee, and he’s like, what’s wrong? And I asked him point blank, are you having an affair? And he looked me right in the eyes, and he goes, no, babe, I would never do that. I love you way too much. So I went to work, and there were streamers, balloons and gifts around my desk. And I was like, I don’t feel like celebrating. I don’t feel like myself.

And then I double checked the, email just to see, maybe I saw something wrong. And when I clicked on the first reservation for his business trip, I did a double take and it wasn’t for a business trip, it was a beachfront resort in Hawaii for two the entire time. It is devastating to find out that my husband had betrayed my trust.

Samantha: And he was on the same island I was on the whole time. It confirmed what I had been feeling. I ended up having to leave work, got home, and was just staring into space. And the phone rang, I answered it, and it was him. He says, hey, I called you at work and they said, you left. And I said, yeah, I decided to take the day off. And he goes, are you sure nothing else is wrong? So I gave him another opportunity to tell me the truth.

And I asked him again, are you having an affair? And this time he’s almost got a little bit of anger in his voice. Like, come on, why are you asking me this? You know, I’d never do it. You need to get that out of your head. I love you too much. And that’s when I just lost it and broke down. And I’m like, I know you weren’t in Phoenix last week on business. You were with her. You’re meeting her again tomorrow night.

It was probably a very short pause, maybe five seconds, but to me it felt like an eternity. That confirmed exactly, because he had no answer. I had caught him, and that’s when I just crumbled to the floor. I went into complete shock and started blurting out, who is she? How long have you known her? Where’d you meet? Da, da, da, da, and, of course, he didn’t give me the truth, my husband just lie upon lie.

He had betrayed my trusts so deeply. The more I uncovered, the more questions I had.

Samantha: There was so much gaslighting, I thought I was the problem, you know? If I had only done this better, and if I could have just done that better. In fact, I went to a counselor myself. I just wanted to make sure I’m a better person for him. I tried to look inside myself.

And then realizing it wasn’t me after all. He was just turning it around so that I questioned myself and not him. And just so many lies upon lies. I don’t know how he kept up with it.

Anne: Wow, I’m so sorry. That is absolutely devastating. Now that you know what you went through. When you didn’t realize it while you went through it. Like now that you realize, oh, wow, he was emotionally and psychologically abusive to me. For a lot of our marriage, and I didn’t understand. How does that change your perspective now, looking back?

Samantha: I realize, looking back probably right from the beginning when we were dating. That the manipulation started back then, but I didn’t know what it was. How do you deal with that when you don’t know that your husband has been betraying your trust your whole marriage?

Anne: Yeah, they know that we don’t know, and they count on that. It’s not like we’re stupid for not knowing. They’re like, not good people for purposefully doing that and being happy that we don’t know. And that says nothing about us and everything about them.

Samantha: You know, if you’d have asked me, if your husband ever cheated, I’m like, I’m out of there. I’m leaving. But you don’t know until you’ve actually experienced it.

Samantha: And I wanted to save my marriage. We’d been married just over 20 years and had a blended family of six children. His first wife died of cancer when the boys were three and six. And together we raised six children, and I expected to be forever with him. So we went to counseling together, marriage counseling. and separate therapy. And he joined the addiction group to help with his addiction.

Anne: So even though you’d known about his addiction, your whole marriage. He didn’t start addiction recovery until after you found out about the affair. Now I know your story, so I know there are multiple affairs that you find out about later, all just contiued betrayals of your trust. Knowing your story, at this point you began doing a bunch of things that the marriage counselor suggested or he suggested. Can you talk about that?

Samantha: Oh, yeah, initially it was his idea for me to track him. I had access to all his everything, passwords and whatnot. I had an app that tracked everywhere he was, and if he was with anyone. Like in business or having lunch or with anyone, he would send a picture.

Anne: I’m actually wondering, and I don’t know if you’ve thought of this, but that he maybe had a burner phone or something, and so he suggested it knowing that he could gain your trust but still get away with it.

Samantha: I mean, he could have left his phone on his desk and gone out, and I wouldn’t have known. That’s stressful, and it creates anxiety.

Samantha: If I look at the app and see, oh, is he supposed to be here? It was exhausting. I’m constantly missing out on what’s going on in front of me. And I couldn’t do it anymore. To me, character is defined by how you behave when no one’s watching. So I wanted to see how he’s going to behave? I said to him one day I’m going to keep taking care of the bills, and I’m going to delete the app so I no longer track you.

And, within a week, he signed up with a couple of the sleazy dating sites. And, in no time, I found a 27 year old girl he met up and paid for sex in a hotel. Continued betrayal of trust from my husband. Another week went by, and we had our 20th anniversary. And I served him with divorce papers on our anniversary. I felt like I was worth more than what I was receiving. And I couldn’t keep putting myself in that place of pain. I wanted to move forward and have joy in my life again.

Anne: Can you talk about what helped you recover after betrayal?

Samantha: I narrow it down to: avoid alcohol and cannabis. Alcohol is a depressant, and you’ve already got a gaping wound. You don’t need to add salt to it. And, find someone to talk to, preferably someone who specializes in betrayal.

I needed help, and I wanted someone experienced in betrayal. So thank you. My pastor referred me. That makes you know that you’re not alone.

Anne: I couldn’t have said it better myself. When your husband betrays your trust, it’s so important to talk to someone who specializes in betrayal and understands it. Like we do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our coaches are incredible. You can hear women’s stories on the podcast, which will help you know that you’re not alone.

Anne: Well, Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

Samantha: Thank you for having me.

So many women struggle with the question: “What to do when you are mad at your husband?”. If you’re angry because your husband has harmed you, your anger makes sense. Did you know that legitimate anger is not bad, and in fact, it’s helpful?

Anger is a natural response to harmful treatment, and it helps you know that something is wrong. It’s like a sacred internal warning system, alerting you to danger and calling you to action.

ANGER…

If you’re feeling angry about your husband’s destructive behavior, we get it. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY to talk to other women who have been in your situation and can support you.

When women take a moment to evaluate why they feel angry, they can determine the source. Often they’re experiencing anger in reaction to their husband’s anger and emotional abuse. They feel scared, frustrated, tired, hurt, and overwhelmed.

At BTR.ORG we encourage victims of emotional abuse to think differently about their anger.

To discover if your husband’s anger is actually emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne: It’s just me today.

Has anyone else ever noticed that society has double standards for men and women’s anger? Society often celebrates and justifies men’s anger, while it views women’s anger as irrational and emotional.

Anne: Like if he says, “My wife cheated on me, and it makes me so angry.” Everyone would be like, yeah. I would be angry too. But if a husband cheats on his wife and she gets angry, somehow people blame her anger for his cheating. Anger for him is always justified as a response to apparent harm. For women, anger is considered a condition – like, “She’s angry” as if it’s a character trait rather than an emotion.

If your husband’s behavior is destructive, like he’s always angry, he’s lying to you, or he’s emotionally abusive, it’s not wrong to be angry.

Here are seven reasons why your anger is not bad.

Anne: Number one, anger alerts you to unfair treatment. Anger is your mind and body’s way of signaling to you that something is wrong. So when you feel a surge of anger, take a minute to determine what the anger is about.

Instead of like pushing it away and thinking I shouldn’t be angry, accept the lesson it’s offering you.

It might help you determine your level of emotional safety, and then you can start to heal from emotional abuse.

Anne: Number two, anger motivates action.

I believe God gave us anger to help us take action and protect ourselves.This can be confusing, because abusive men are often angry due to their exploitative privilege. Meaning that they get angry when people resist their exploitative behaviors.

And that is NOT a good reason to be angry. That’s actually an exploitative reason, and their anger is emotional abuse, because they’re using their anger to manipulate you. They’re using their anger to scare you or threaten you, so they can continue to exploit you.

However, if protection and safety are your top priorities, your anger is NOT BAD. It can actually help you get to safety.

Anne: Number three, anger clarifies reality.

One of the hardest parts about emotional abuse is that it muddles your sense of reality. The gaslighting and manipulation can make you doubt your own thoughts and feelings. Anger cuts through that confusion. It’s an inner voice that’s saying this is not okay.

Anne: Number four, anger restores your sense of self.

Emotional abuse often chips away your sense of identity, leaving you feeling small, powerless or invisible. But anger can strengthen your connection to your authentic self by reminding you of your worth and helping you get in touch with your own emotions.

Anne: Number five, anger builds resilience.

Women who acknowledge and channel their anger constructively often use it to fuel their personal growth. For example, I felt intense anger when I started podcasting and created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. My ex-husband’s oppression for eight years after our divorce angered me, motivating me to dedicate all my effort to this podcast and our services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, especially the Living Free workshop.. The situation infuriated me, and I became determined to find a way to free myself from him, which I’ll discuss a little later.

Anne: Number six, anger interrupts manipulation.

Emotional abusers rely on manipulation to maintain control in relationships. And they use tactics like belittling or guilt tripping, or even grooming to manipulate you.

When you internalize that your righteous anger is not bad, it becomes harder for him to manipulate you.

Anne: And number seven, anger sparks hope for change.

You might think this is ironic.

It may sound counterintuitive, but anger can lead to hope. Anger signals that you can recognize the injustice happening to you, and that you’re ready to take action to protect yourself.

Countless women who have shared their stories on the BTR podcast, describe anger as the emotion that finally allowed them to see a future beyond abuse. A future filled with safety and dignity.

If your husband is angry, but he says that you can’t be angry about his anger. Know that anger as a response to abuse is a sign of strength, not weakness.

People often misunderstand anger, especially in women who are conditioned to suppress it or feel ashamed. Know your anger is not bad. When you face emotional abuse, your anger can empower you to see the truth and take action.

Anne: Years ago, I felt really angry, and people kept saying I had a problem with my anger. I didn’t believe it was a problem because I saw it as righteous anger, completely justified.

Like, who wouldn’t be angry?

My husband lied to me, cheated on me, and exploited me for his own gain.

He didn’t care about me at all and now I have to live with the consequences of that. Like. Of course, I’m angry.

Like, why are you not angry about it? What’s wrong with you, that you’re not angry about the situation.

Anne: I am Christian. So I turned to studying the scriptures to try to like process my anger, to figure out what God thought about my anger.

And interestingly, through that study, I actually came up with the Living Free strategies that enabled me to deliver myself and my kids.

Anne: The recording I’ll play is from when I studied and tried to figure out what God wanted me to do to be delivered. You can hear the hope in my voice.

A year or two after this recording, I discovered the Living Free Strategies and used them to completely free myself and my children from our abusive situation.

For years, we’ve lived free and have had peace.

To learn how I eventually delivered myself, click here to learn more about The Living Free Workshop strategies.

If reading scriptures is triggering and you want to skip the rest of this episode, go ahead. Or you may want to listen to hear when I’m trying to figure out if my anger is okay with God, and let it guide me.

I hoped for deliverance, even when I had no evidence of it.

So here is this recording from years ago. Hopefully, it will be helpful to you.

Anne: Once I realized that if I didn’t feel angry, something would be wrong with me, things started to change.

If I didn’t feel angry, I would be weird. Then, I could actually embrace it. Many righteous people throughout all of time have felt righteous anger and a desire for justice. Righteous anger is not bad.

In my situation, my ex is still using the kids to hurt me. So I don’t know when I will be delivered from having to interact with him.

I pray it will happen soon.

There’s no way that I, by myself, can make all things right for me and my kids. For me, as a Christian, relying on My Savior brings me peace and hope. And I know that all I need to do is set that boundary and maintain it. And when I continue to maintain it, I’m standing for truth and righteousness, and hopefully I will be delivered.

The scriptures, talk about righteous people who are healthy going through great trials. And the Lord promises them peace.

Anne: People like Moses, Elijah, David, and even Jesus demonstrated that righteous anger is not bad.  In Mark 3:5, for example, it’s talking about the Savior. And it said, “and when he had looked roundabout on them with anger being grieved for the hardness of their hearts.” Repeatedly. The scriptures talk about God being angry about wickedness. “His anger was not turned away, but his hand was stretched out still.”

Moses uses his righteous anger to deliver the Israelites from the bondage of Pharaoh, and helps them walk through the Red Sea on dry ground to safety. And then they end up wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, right?

That’s how I felt—God freed me from bondage, led me through on dry ground, and now I’m wandering in the wilderness, unsure of what will happen and still facing serious trials. This pattern has existed since the beginning of time.

And there are a bunch of war chapters in the scriptures. I’m going to read some today that have helped me understand righteous anger and what that looks like. The point of this is not to proselytize by any means. I respect all your views. However, this is how God showed me that my righteous anger is not bad, and how to allow it to guide me toward deliverance.

Anne: Moroni who is the captain of an army is one of the most righteous men in the scriptures.

It says, “And verily, verily, I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever, yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. Moroni is described as an extremely faithful, extremely righteous man.”

“He was a man of love and perfect understanding,” it says. “A man who did not delight in bloodshed, a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his brethren from the bondage of slavery. Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people, a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.”

So it says specifically in Alma 48 verse 12, “He labored for the safety of his people.” And then in 13, “Yea, he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and taught to defend themselves against their enemies.”

“Yea, they were also taught never to give an offense. Yea, never to raise the sword, against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those that were once their brethren and had left them.”

Anne: Moroni is saying if you have harmed your children or your family, you cannot be here anymore. So, they create boundaries for safety.

Alma chapter 50 verse 18 says, “and thus we see how merciful and just are the dealings of the Lord to the fulfilling of all his words unto the children of men.” And the Lord says to them in verse 20, “Blessed art thou and thy children and thou shall be blessed but remember in as much as they will not keep my commandments, they shall be cut off.”

Now when we recognize that our spouse has not been healthy and is not making good overt or covert choices, we get the consequences of that, and our homes are in chaos, and things start to fall apart. And we start suffering from the unrighteousness of someone else, which is extremely painful and difficult, especially if we’re doing the right thing. In this case, our anger is not bad.

And it says in verse 21, “and we see that these promises have been verified for it has been their quarrelings and their contentions, yea, their murderings and their plunderings, their idolatry, their whoredoms and their abominations, which were among themselves, which brought upon them their wars and their destructions.”

Anne: The battle between an abuser and his victim at home brings all types of contention and chaos.

Those who were faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord were delivered at all times. While the wicked, brethren, having been consigned to bondage, perish. You are feeling the effects of that, and it does not feel good. Your anger is not bad.

It feels miserable, and that’s what Moroni felt, too. He felt like being in the situation where there were people who were not doing the right thing, who were not making healthy choices, it was miserable.

In Alma 52, verse 21, it says “and it came to pass that Moroni, having no hopes of meeting them upon fair grounds, can see that it is impossible to talk with these people who are lying and deceiving. On fair grounds, therefore, he resolved upon a plan.”

So, in several verses, it says that he is going to deal with them by stratagem, that he’s not going to actually speak with them, because that doesn’t get him anywhere.

Anne: If a person is too unhealthy to talk to, I need to figure out a way to get to safety, which doesn’t involve confronting them directly.

In chapter 54, verse 7, Moroni says, “Yea, I would tell them these things if they were capable of hearkening unto them. Yea, I would tell them concerning the awful hell that awaits them. Accept they withdraw and return their armies to their own lands. But as they have once rejected these things, and fought against the people of the Lord, even so, may I expect they will do it again.”

So Moroni’s saying, I just keep seeing this pattern over and over and over again.

And then he says in verse 11, “Behold, it’s supposed with me that I talk to them concerning these things in vain. Or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell.”

So, Moroni is angry, in a good way. Then in verse 13, he says, “Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people. We have only sought to defend ourselves.”

And that is a righteous thing to do. Recognizing that righteous anger is not wrong.

Moroni is the most righteous person. And he is doing that. So we can follow his example with peace and with confidence.

Anne: Alma 55, says, “For I will not grant unto him that he shall have any more power than what he hath got.” Chapter 57, verse 20, says, “They were firm and undaunted.” I’m going to add, in their boundary, although it doesn’t say that.

In verse 26, miracles start happening. In says of Moroni’s people, the women and the children and the righteous people, “Now their preservation was astonishing to our whole army, yea, that they should be spared.”

“And we did justly ascribe it to the miraculous power of God because of the exceeding faith in that which they had been taught to believe, that there was a just God and whosoever did not doubt that they should be preserved by his miraculous power.” In chapter 58, verse 6, It says, “And the wicked were sallying forth against us from time to time, resolving to destroy us. Nevertheless, we could not come to battle with them, because of their strongholds. And it came to pass that we did wait in these difficult circumstances for the space of many months, even until we were about to perish for want of food.”

So they’ve created a boundary, they’re waiting it out, and it’s not going well for them. And then, The Lord’s promises are revealed.

Anne: Let me pause here as modern-day me to reflect on what I’ve learned through my experiences with the stages of anger after betrayal.

There were countless moments when I didn’t know how I’d pay my bills or keep my home. I couldn’t see a way forward, yet I kept moving, step by step, trusting that somehow, things would work out. And they did. Time and again, the Lord provided just what I needed. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’m not in that same day-to-day survival mode anymore, but I know that if I ever find myself there again, I can look back on those times and trust that things will be okay. That trust didn’t remove my struggles, but it gave me the strength to face them.

In the scriptures, Moroni describes being under siege, feeling surrounded and overwhelmed. In Alma 58:9, it states, “…we grieved and felt fear; therefore, we poured out our souls in prayer to God to strengthen and deliver us.”

That prayer isn’t just about deliverance—it’s about recognizing that righteous anger is not bad, it’s telling you something is not right and giving you a call for action.

And in verse 11, it says, “The Lord our God visited us with assurances…he did speak peace to our souls, and grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance.”

That hope gave them the courage to act, to keep fighting. In verse 40, they declared, “We have received many wounds; nevertheless, we stand fast and are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day.”

Anne: “Yea, And it came to pass that the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us.”

“Yeah in so much that he did speak peace to our souls and a grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for deliverance in him.” And in verse 12, “And we did take courage.”

In 58 verse 37, “We trust God will deliver us, notwithstanding our weakness, yea, deliver us out of the hands of our enemies.” In verse 40, Talking about the righteous armies, and I’m talking about you, and I’m going to put a we instead of a they here, “But behold, we have received many wounds.”

“Nevertheless, we stand fast and we are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day. Yeah, for our faith is strong in the prophecies concerning that which is to come.”

Anne: When I discovered the Living Free Strategies, I wanted to see if they would work for other women.

I didn’t know if it was just me, or if it was a fluke. So I mentored other women using the strategies, and we found they worked for everyone. Even if you’re not Christian.

The Living Free Workshop is presented in a more secular form. So the strategies apply to everyone.

But I’m so thankful. For my savior. For delivering my children and I.

My testimony of Jesus Christ is that he is the deliverer and he is our savior. And we can look to him.

And he will show us the path forward. That doesn’t mean we don’t get help or learn new things, right? We can learn through Living Free strategies, get help from a coach, or graphics on Instagram. In fact, so many women have told me they prayed to know what to do for help. And then they found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, it was an answer to their prayer.

If you’re not Christian, I hope that the information you find at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helps you find the peace that you deserve in your life.

If you’re wondering, “Why is my husband yelling at me?” the answer might surprise you. Here are 7 key questions to help uncover the real reasons behind his constant anger.

When your husband has something he wants to do that he doesn’t want you to know about. He will be very irritated when you ask normal everyday questions. Or try to interact with him like any normal person would. Hiding things from you is not only lying and deceit, it’s actually a form of emotional and psychological abuse. To know if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse to hide his secret, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

The purpose of yelling in the context of marriage is to overpower the other person. If he’s yelling at you, his primary motivation is to control you or the situation. Unfortunately for you, overpowering someone isn’t about relationship – it’s about control. If your husband frequently attempts to overpower you by yelling. He’s more interested in keeping his secrets hidden or exploiting you than solving problems.

As previously mentioned, yelling is never about solving problems. Healthy people who are solution oriented ask questions to clarify or understand, not to overpower.

If he’s yelling questions at you, he’s doing it to prove you wrong, silence you, or invalidate you, not solve a problem. It’s important to understand this type of emotionally abusive dynamic, so you can use strategies to protect yourself. To learn more, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

Your husband may claim that yelling is just part of normal communication. Or he may even insist that he isn’t yelling when he is. But if he’s yelling, he’s using his voice to intimidate, control, and degrade you. If it hurts, it’s actually emotional harm. To learn more about why this is emotionally abusive, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

When he yells at you to create an excuse to stomp off and do the secret thing he had planned, it creates an environment of fear and instability for children. They’ll feel like they have to walk on eggshells. Additionally, witnessing their mother be emotionally abused in this way can have long-lasting effects on children’s mental health and well-being.

If he tells you he wouldn’t yell if only you (fill in the blank), that’s nonsense. He has a million choices about how he can respond, and yelling is only one of those choices. Did you know he could ask a question and listen to the answer? He could sit down and listen to what you have to say. He could stop being selfish. His yelling has literally nothing to do with you. If he blames you for it, that’s emotional and psychological abuse.

If your husband yells at you and then says, “I don’t want to do something I’m going to regret, so I’m going to go cool off,” you might not realize it, but this can actually be a veiled threat.

What he’s really communicating is that he’s capable of harming you, whether physically or emotionally. By framing it this way, he shifts the responsibility onto you to avoid triggering his harmful behavior, which is a form of manipulation.

If he stonewalls you by stomping off, that’s a threat to your dignity. That communicates clearly, “You’re not worth resolving problems with.” Anytime a husband yells at his wife and stomps off, it’s an abusive threat meant to silence and overpower her, whether she recognizes it or not.

While there’s no way to stop your husband from yelling or change his character to be an emotionally safe person. There is a way to protect yourself. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily to provide healthy, compassionate support for women in this situation. Attend a session today.

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Cat. Before Cat shares her story. Here are seven key questions to ask yourself to determine: Why is my husband yelling at me? And if his yelling indicates something deeper. And you’ll hear these themes throughout Cat’s story.

Cat: Thanks, Anne. I’m happy to be here.

Anne: I’m honored that you volunteered to share your story today. And I’m so sorry about what you’ve been through.

Cat: Thank you.

Anne: Let’s start at the beginning.

Cat: The beginning is way back in the nineties. My ex-husband and I met in college and started dating. We were married for about twenty five years. We were together for 28. Looking back, there were a ton of red flags, but I just had no concept of those particular types of red flags. One of the best things that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and the coaches had me do was write a timeline of our entire relationship.

Throughout the process of separation, divorce, and healing, whenever I would feel wobbly, I would just go back and look at that timeline, and it immediately grounded me. So, I still look at it from time to time, just to remember it was always there.

Cat: It wasn’t me. The signs were always there. It took me that long to claw my way out. I think that’s probably the best thing any woman who finds herself in this situation can do. So many women are aware of the more overt and socially recognized forms of abuse. That’s what we’re on the lookout for. My parents raised me in the South. I was aware, staying away from the “bad guys.”

The guys who were more, maybe aggressive alpha males who were more overt in their expressions of aggression. Like men who are always yelling and stomping around. Oh, I would never end up in a relationship with someone like that. And I think most women have a hard time recognizing that highly intelligent, manipulative, covert, narcissistic type of abuse. That is consistently playing the long game. My ex-husband is considered a good guy.

He is very performative in his social kind of markers, very progressive, very liberal. He would seem very pro-women, sensitive, you know, all those things. But behind closed doors or with what probably feels like enabling company to him, there are many behaviors that I now recognize as problematic. One of the first was such an obvious red flag to me. Our junior year, we’d been dating for a while. But I had not seen any of the red flag behavior.

One of his dearest friends from childhood who also went to our college was his roommate. He pulled me aside and said, have you seen his dark side? And I didn’t know what he was talking about. I couldn’t even imagine what he was describing.

Cat: He would act moody and grouchy for a prolonged time. His friend group had become accustomed to and sort of made space for. I now understand that friend group is what would be called flying monkeys and enablers. At the time, I didn’t know that. And he was sort of the alpha of that friend group. Even though he was not your typical alpha male. And it wasn’t long after that that I did see a sort of dark side come out. I couldn’t figure out what had happened.

I still don’t know why he directed the moodiness and grouchiness at me. But no reason could be provided for it, you know, and I had never experienced anything like that. So I said, you know, what’s going on? What’s wrong? What do you need? How can I help you? Doing all the things, and nothing I did made a difference. And then just like within 24 hours, I guess it passed, but there was no reason given. Eventually, the narrative became this is something the men in my family do.

We all struggle with anxiety and depression. He implied it was part of their genetic makeup.

Anne: I have developed a theory, and when my book comes out, it clearly outlines this. When they start to escalate to yelling and fighting like that for seemingly no reason, it’s because they have something else they want to do. But they can’t figure out how to get away from us.

Cat: Mm hmm.

Anne: So he starts yelling to instigate a fight. They can stomp off and do the thing they want to do, like solicit a prostitute, but they can’t say to you, Hey, you know what, I’ve got a prostitute to solicit.

Cat: Right.

Anne: And so I’m going to go, some of them will be like, I’ve got homework to do. And go and solicit the prostitute. So the question I have is, did he escalate to the point where he kind of stomped off?

Cat: Yes, that was always what would happen. He even told me he managed outbursts like that.

Anne: Was stomping off?

Cat: Yeah, stomping off, going on a walk, going out. And that became the protocol, his way of dealing with this over the decades. I can’t even believe it, Anne, but now that you’re saying it that way.

Anne: This is all theoretical, he admitted to you this is what my family does. But he didn’t say we know how to leave the house and make it your fault so we can go solicit a prostitute. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims in long form interviews like this one. And in the 70s, the 1970s in the 1900s. Maybe they went to like the corner secret store, but I’ve seen it as a pattern.

And until you put the pieces together. It’s hard to know, because they would never ever admit it. That they just want you to think they got so mad at you because you’re so terrible. That’s the only way they could cool down, and they’ll maybe even say it in a way that makes them sound a little bit nice.

Anne: Like I didn’t want to hurt you anymore. And so to explain why I yelled and stomped off to like, save you from my anger. When they invented a fight from nothing, to do the secret thing they wanted to do. That they had planned before they started the “argument.”

Cat: Yeah, yes, women who find themselves in this situation. The fact that we have a conscience makes it so easy to dupe us. By people who don’t have a conscience, because we just assume the person we’re with also has a conscience. So it’s hard to conceive the depth of manipulation and malignancy. And really, up until D-Day, I could not have conceived this was what was happening. I truly believed his rationales or reasons.

I know this is such a stereotype, but he had a lot of trauma in his childhood. His mother died in an accident when he was young. And a lot of the “moodiness, depression, and anxiety,” and I’m using air quotes there, because I no longer believe that’s what it was. But that’s what it was attributed to at the time. It was implicitly ascribed to that trauma, and I made space for that all the time. Even if it wasn’t directly talked about.

That was the narrative I created in my mind for what was going on and why he deserved compassion, understanding and support.

Anne: I had a therapist say to me once about my ex, he’s a psychopath, and I was like, what? She’d never met him, so she couldn’t diagnose him.

Anne: She said, did he manipulate you to feel sorry for him to get away with yelling and bad behavior? And I said, wow, I didn’t think about that. She said one of the hallmarks of a psychopath is they want someone to pity them.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: Because a healthy person does not want someone’s pity. They’re like, yeah, my mom passed away from a car accident when I was a kid. It was a real bummer, it’s sad, but like, I’m healthy now and here I am as an adult.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: But they could use anything to elicit pity to do what they want to do. Let’s go back to that flying monkey friend. It’s interesting to me that you said your husband was the alpha of this group. Who I assume took his side later from the way you described it. What do you think his motivation was to ask if you had seen a dark side? Do you think he was trying to warn you?

Cat: I don’t know if it was out of concern for me. I have to share the tone of this friend group. They’re all very sweet. They’re all very kind. Well, I know one of them has attacked me verbally, talking about me behind my back. I don’t know that any of the rest of them have.

They have all, at least to me, said kind, compassionate things, but it’s that sitting on the fence. You know, I want to be nice to you. I want to be a good guy and say the right thing to you, but I’m also going to totally support your ex-husband.

Cat: Although when my ex husband, I think, notified some of his cohort and requested privacy or something like that. One of those friends reached out to both of us and said, I’m so sorry to hear this. If either of you want to talk, I’m here. And, I did contact him, and I told him everything going on. We had a long conversation, and he believed everything I said because he had seen things.

But he said to me, you know Cat, we all knew he was capable of this. We just hoped it wasn’t happening to you. That’s like verbatim what he said to me, and yet they’re all just there for him. So I thought the group was all kind, all sensitive, all good guys. And yet they are his enablers to the end. I’ve since cut ties with everyone. Like, all of them, even though some of them were my friends, separate from my ex-husband before we got together in college, even most of his family, I’ve cut ties with.

I do have intermittent contact with his brother and brother’s wife from his family, who do not speak to him anymore. But the rest, I’ve cut everyone out.

Anne: That’s so hard. We perceive it as a warning, but part of me wonders if they’re testing the waters.

Cat: Mm hmm.

Anne: Because many of them drop the mask a little bit before the marriage, and then they put it back on. And I often wonder if it’s a little bit of a test, and again, this is not our fault that we believe them. Which is the most awful, unconscionable thing to think.

Anne: A normal person would be like, shoot, she believed me. I better tell her the truth so that she knows what she’s getting into.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: uh, it’s awful.

Cat: Yeah, after that first, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but now I understand that was abuse early on. Nine months into dating, it didn’t happen again for a long time. I couldn’t figure out why those cycles of yelling and anger got closer and closer together, and it took 15 or more years. I mean, I was in my 30s with three children before I realized, like, this is just my life. It’s just one big, and I didn’t have the word abuse cycle then. But I understood that this is all the time now, it’s not intermittent episodes anymore.

It is just a constant, daily grind. We all know the frog in the pot of boiling water analogy. I look back now and understand the behaviors. Especially the outward behaviors that were happening within our various friend groups over the decades. They meant to create his false image to hide his secret behaviors, secret basement. And covert abuse while simultaneously invalidating me. So that if I ever went to someone, I wouldn’t be believed. He did actually write that to me.

He admitted he did that on purpose. So I know that the gaslighting, which was happening outwardly with our friends. Him putting on the mask of a good guy, all the way to him encouraging me to go to the Women’s March in DC. Like almost to the point of like, if I didn’t go, it would be disappointing him. Because that’s part of his mask.

Cat: The fact that he would be married to a feminist means there’s no way he could do what he’s doing. You know, it’s like a decorator crab. They’re just putting all these things on their shell, and I was like his crown jewel. But I was just social capital, that’s it. And I know now that’s what our family was. So that long game, it’s hard to wrap your mind around how deep and calculated it is. I still struggle with wondering, is it all conscious or “he can’t help it.”

And I’m saying that with air quotes like, he can’t help it. Not like, oh, poor him. I don’t feel that way at all. But that it’s such a part of who he is. And it’s kind of gotten to the point where it doesn’t matter to me. I just know that I want that level of manipulation nowhere around me. And, I know it works on many people, and I can’t worry about that.

Anne: And the answer might be that they yell and abuse because it works.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: It allows them to exploit people. It allows them to work the least amount.

Cat: Yep.

Anne: In terms of emotional work, psychological work, and even physical labor. It allows them to have all the privileges of a family without having the responsibilities.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: A survey done in prison that the counselor asked the abusers in the prison, why would you abuse? They just had lists and lists of reasons, all the entitlements they get. And then he said, why wouldn’t you? And they said things like, because I might get thrown in jail.

Anne: Because people might not like me, and guess what wasn’t on their list, because I care about her, was not on the list. So anytime someone lacks that basic human care for their own partner, and everyone is just fodder for exploitation, They’re just going to do what works and controlling people with anger and yelling works .They’re very practical, not to their credit, but their values and moral system are only based on what works to get them what they want, not what is the right thing to do.

Cat: Yeah, and I think that goes along with what I was talking about. People with a conscience have a hard time comprehending the behaviors of people without a conscience. It causes us to give them the benefit of the doubt all the time. And then the people without a conscience use that against us or use that for their own betterment.

To your point, about the therapist saying your ex husband was a psychopath. We did couple’s therapy for probably eight years, almost weekly, because of a fake disclosure that happened.

Anne: He lied about something he did?

Cat: I know crazy, right? He lied about something. Yeah, so this is, it’s almost like hard to believe I didn’t see it. So we had many, many years of abuse cycles, increasing in regularity. I had begged him to go to therapy, but there was so much I didn’t know about getting a therapist for my abusive husband. for a long time. He wouldn’t do it. He also had pretty regular impotence, which I had personally seen professionals about. Because I didn’t want a loveless marriage.

Cat: And I eventually encouraged him to seek help about it. I remember asking him if men attracted him. And I didn’t know about exploitative content use at that time. I had no concept that this material induced impotency. And no professional I went to, you know, doctors, therapists, acupuncture, whatever. No one said, could it be this? Nobody said that to me. So I went to him and said, can you go get checked out? Let’s figure out what’s going on, and he came back.

He said everything’s fine, they just said it’s anxiety, but the abuse cycles associated with his impotence were the worst. I had three kids, eventually I just kept them away as much as possible. While he was like in a dark room, on the computer and grouchy. So his dad, came to visit one time. He saw what was happening, and came to me and said he didn’t like what he was seeing. And I said, can you tell him to go to therapy? Because he won’t listen to me.

So he went to therapy after his dad told him to. He got on some anti-anxiety medication, and things nominally improved. The yelling and abuse cycles were still there, but they were not as extreme. And then he came to me and said, I’ve been talking to my therapist and I need to confess something to you, because I’m worried about how I might act on this impulse I’m having.

He said, I just wanted you to know that I was watching this horrible stuff. I have to admit, I didn’t care about it at that point. And I just thought it was something most guys did. I didn’t know all the harms associated with it.

Cat: I didn’t like it, but it wasn’t an area of concern for me. So he said I watched it, and all these pop up windows came up, and I clicked on a website. I started talking to a bot, and it was taking me further into chat rooms. And these are his words. “I was getting worried about how far I was going,” he said. “I ended up on a website called Ashley Madison”, and he said, “All I was doing was talking to people.”

But again, I had no idea, I mean, I look back now and I’m just like, I’m a different person, but I said, Ashley Madison. And then I realized what Ashley Madison was. I did not think he was cheating, I believed what he said about just talking to people.

Anne: For women who may not be aware of the Ashley Madison scandal, can you give a brief overview of that?

Cat: It’s a website for married people to sign up to cheat on their spouses.

Anne: Right, they hacked it and released all the names?

Cat: Well, I didn’t know that, but yes, that’s why he did it. Yes, he was preempting.

Anne: Exactly, he was getting ahead of it just in case you discovered it.

Cat: Yes, exactly. It was a fake disclosure.

Anne: That time, you think, of course he’s telling the truth. Because why would he tell me if he didn’t tell the truth? There’s no way you’d think he concocted a lie preemptively, so that he could lie to you if you discovered the truth.

Cat: Exactly.

Anne: When you said the abuse cycle with the impotence was the worst. That may or may not confirm my theory. That the reason why he’s yelling and angry is because you’re obstructing them from using. Or hooking up with married women on Ashley Madison. Because anytime you try to talk to them, if they’re like on their way to use it, or if they’re on their way to do the thing they want to do.

They’ll be extremely irritated. And mad at you, so that they have an “excuse” to go do something else. And that also might explain why he was so impotent at that time. Because if you’re using every day or multiple times a day, you’re definitely going to be impotent with your wife.

Cat: Yeah, and he told me at the end of the marriage that there were times where he was using it seven hours a day. He would leave his tech job and meet up with like Craigslist hookups. Which who knows, and my oldest son said to me, you would be an idiot to believe a word that comes out of his mouth at this point.

And that was just a few months after he admitted the “real” and I’m saying real in air quotes. Because I’m sure that’s the tip of the iceberg. Whatever he admitted. I mean, we had 26 years of him doing stuff. I don’t know about, whatever he admitted. There’s way worse out there, but that’s all I needed. And that’s when I went no contact.

Cat: But after the first fake disclosure regarding Ashley Madison, he had a whole plan in place. He had already contacted a couples therapist. He said, let’s start doing couples therapy. I want to use this to rebuild our marriage and all this stuff. And I never enthusiastically agreed, but I definitely acquiesced. And so we spent eight years in couples therapy, I realize now what garbage that was. He used couples therapy to manipulate me.

When more truth came out, I scheduled an appointment with that therapist and recounted several times. I had tried to point to what happened. And was silenced in couples therapy. That couples therapist, to his credit, said he’s definitely a covert narcissist. And I think he’s a sociopath. Probably like your therapist saying, your ex-husband was a psychopath. This therapist saw my ex-husband weekly for eight years. So that was eye opening for me.

Anne: That’s the first time the therapist recognized he lied for eight years. The fact that someone can go to therapy every week for eight years and lie the entire time. My ex did it through addiction recovery therapy. He’d go to 12-step meetings and lied to everyone. He enjoyed every minute of it.

Mine loved therapy. When I mentioned, hey, let’s go to therapy. He was like, yes. Once they discover that therapy will work for them, they don’t mind it at all. A lot of women think, if I could just get him in therapy, and it sounds like you thought that.

Cat: I did!

Anne: Then you did. And it gets worse.

Anne: They learn how to weaponize the therapy against us. So that they seem better and sound good. Yours was already good at that, so it makes them even more scary. So yeah, if you’re listening, thinking if he would only go to therapy.

Cat: It’s dangerous. Especially couples therapy, when you’re considering intensive couples therapy because couples therapists assume an equality of good intention. That both people are there because they’re trying to improve the relationship. That’s part of how they train therapists. But in reality with emotional abuse, where it’s hidden, even from the victim. It’s really dangerous, and therapy becomes a tool for further manipulation and control. And that’s definitely what happened.

The way I was able to gain awareness of the reality that what I was living with was abuse. Started when I discovered a large bag of marijuana in his backpack. While I helped my middle son look for something he had lost that my husband was mad about.

And I was trying to help him avoid his dad’s ire by helping him look for this thing. I opened up my husband’s backpack, and there was a big bag of marijuana in there. And he had been saying in therapy, he wasn’t doing anything. He wasn’t looking at exploitative material. He wasn’t doing drugs, he wasn’t doing all the stuff. And I just lost it.

Like I could not believe the level of deception I was still dealing with, and my husbands lying all the time. And so we had a big heated argument that night he did a lot of yelling. He’d obviously thought about, if he got caught, what he would do.

Cat: And he immediately redirected the conversation to the fact that he has an addiction problem with drugs and alcohol. This was news to me. I had no idea. I don’t think he actually, I mean, I think it’s more that he has a problem with entitlement. And if he wants to do something, he’s going to do it. Whether he said he won’t, or whether it’s harmful to others.

So, he said, I’m going to start going to AA, I’m going to go, do all these 12-step things. My oldest son had done a wilderness therapy program, and we were still working with his therapist from that program. I also now understand that was a whole redirection away from my husband’s issues to scapegoat my child. But anyway, I called that therapist to tell him what was going on. And he said to me Cat, I think I’ve seen signs in you of PTSD in our family sessions.

I think something’s going on and I recommend you look at, I think he gave me the name of a podcast, like the Betrayed and the something. And my ex husband started doing a men’s program and determined he had a problem lying. That was his problem. I was diagnosed with PTSD, or CPTSD.

Anne: I’m going to jump in and say, that there’s the P in CPTSD, the post.

Cat: Right.

Anne: If he’s still yelling, lying, and raging around. It’s not post, it’s still happening.

Cat: Right.

Anne: If they’re going to diagnose us, which I have to tell you, I disagree with. I think they should look at us and say, you’re acting completely normal. You’re not diagnosed with anything. And it’s not post anything. You’re still experiencing abuse.

Cat: Yes. He did that program. And we were still in constant contact. I look back now and all our text exchanges, and I can’t believe how much energy I put into explaining human decency to him for so long. He obviously knew, I mean, after that program, a few months later, he started another men’s program. And, then I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Then he finished the program, all the while making pronouncements to me, “Oh, I’m going to do this.” And “Here’s all of this.” And then he said he wanted a divorce. And the biggest tell to me was that I wasn’t even sad. I was sad about our family, and I was scared. There was a lot of fear, but I’ve never once missed him.

Anne: Yeah, that is a good sign, or not.

Cat: Yeah.

Anne: It’s not a good sign, but that’s a sign.

Cat: It’s very clear, yeah.

Anne: Clarifying, I’m so glad you discovered that. I used to recommend men’s programs, and I don’t anymore because of this.

Cat: Totally, through this program, my ex-husband found a way to manipulate through therapy language. He went to those AA meetings and 12-step program meetings. And would come home and disparage all the people in those meetings and say like, Oh, I’m not as bad as those guys. You know, comparing himself to how much better he was than all these other people at these AA meetings, but yet he would still use them to build up his ego and stuff.

Anne: This is why it does not help them.

Cat: No, I don’t think anything would. I mean, even now he’s donning a new costume of healed or healing. Good dad, I know he dog whistles to all his enablers that this is my fault. Because his needs weren’t being met, he had to do what he did. And I even heard him say this through a year through the divorce and family court mediation. I know he even told the assigned family mediator he did what he did, so he didn’t hurt me.

And she ate it up, and she’s a highly trained therapist, and she repeated his words to me. The institutions around therapy and the way therapists are trained. From family court, to the criminal court system, to social systems in general, are all designed to support the main characters, which are these privileged men.

Anne: When they’ve learned the right things to say. And as long as they play the game right, they maintain their privilege and their power.

Cat: Yeah, that’s right.

Anne: It’s extremely discouraging.

Cat: It is. I’ve just immersed myself in learning so much about it. I’m interested in Dr. Peter Salerno, and his books. Which say we have to stop trying to help these men.

Anne: Yeah, this is exactly why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore.

Anne: Due to hearing this story over and over from women over the years. And my own struggle to be free from this type of manipulation. I discovered and created the strategies in the Living Free Workshop. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, 100 percent of the focus is on helping you. Does that mean I think he can’t change?

I don’t think that’s my call to make, the only person I’m concerned about is you. The only help you need is to see his true character. You can observe from a safe distance to see if he will continue to lie and exploit. Or will he make different choices? The strategies give you enough space to see who he really is and what he’s going to do. Because with a therapy program, a men’s program, or a couple’s program, you don’t get the space you need to see him for who he really is.

It just becomes an extension of his manipulation of you. You still have no way to protect yourself from his yelling and abusive behaviors. But the strategies in the Living Free Workshop enable you to create space for yourself to see his true character, because truth is the only way out of this.

Cat: Right, that’s exactly right. That’s so good.

Anne: Our local domestic violence coalition, instead of putting more money into helping victims. They decided to do a men’s program. And I’m like, don’t do it. Because they know what they’re doing.

Anne: I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Barbie movie.

Cat: Yeah, I loved it.

Anne: Ryan Gosling goes into that office building, and he’s in the lobby. I’m gonna do this scene for everyone. Ken says, I’ll take a high level, high paying job with influence, please. And the corporate man says, okay, then you’ll need at least an MBA, and a lot of our people have PhDs. Ken says, Isn’t being a man enough? And the corporate man says, actually, right now it’s the opposite.

Ken says, You guys are clearly not doing patriarchy very well. And here’s the kicker. The corporate man says, no, no, we’re doing it well. Yeah, we just hide it better now. And that’s what you’re talking about. They’re hiding it in feminist language, but they’re not actually feminists. They don’t actually see women as equals. They want to hold on to their exploitative privilege. The part I loved about that movie is they know that.

Cat: They do. And you know, that’s why the covert abusers are probably the most successful now. Because there are so few avenues still socially acceptable to exercise dominance and control.

Anne: Right, yeah, and they’re getting good at it. So in court they intend to, and they know that they can dysregulate us by abusing us. Their intent in yelling to strike fear, to dysregulate us. So they can claim we’re crazy, and we look disheveled and freaked out because we are.

Cat: Yeah, I was even very put together and calm and poised in all our family court meetings, with the judge. They said point blank, we don’t talk about anything that’s come before in here.

Cat: We only talk about how we’re moving forward, which is crazy to me. Knowing all the written admissions I had from him, I was not allowed to even present that. This is the twisted thing about family court. I was the only one showing up and advocating for the kids. He showed up and advocated for what he wanted from custody. And they said if I didn’t stop, I would be labeled a parental alienator.

So I just said, okay, we’re just 50/50, we’re not 50/50. I have more custody, but yeah, it’s broken. I just want to say how grateful I am to Betrayal Trauma Recovery for really accelerating my healing. And giving me compassionate but radical acceptance. So that I could start to get myself to safety and my kids to safety.

Anne: Cat, thank you so much for sharing your story.

A husband’s lying, infidelity, gaslighting, and emotional abuse causes betrayal trauma. The effects can leave women feeling lost, confused, and unsafe. Understanding the 4 stages of betrayal trauma can help you process what’s happening and take meaningful steps toward healing.

Most men who betray their wives are emotionally abusive. Before moving on, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re also experiencing emotional abuse.

When a husband lies, cheats, or manipulates, it can make a woman feel stressed and worried. She might have trouble eating or sleeping. Betrayal can hurt a lot, but that’s why it’s so important to figure out what’s going on. Then, you can start to heal and feel better as soon as possible.

Long before a woman discovers her husband’s lies or infidelity, women feel confused and unsure about what’s wrong. If it happens to you, you usually know something feels off, but it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what. This is critical, because that unease is your intuition signaling that there’s an issue. Often, abusers contribute to this confusion by blaming you, making you feel like you’re the problem. Many women try couple therapy during this time, which doesn’t seem to help.

Sometimes, trusted friends or professionals accidentally make things harder by giving simple advice. Like saying you should work harder on the relationship. During this time, it’s normal to feel confused and even blame yourself. However, it’s important to remember this: feeling confused means you are standing up to the abuse and trying to understand what’s really happening. Keep going, and don’t give up!

To learn more about this type of psychological abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

When a woman finds out about her husband’s lies and infidelity, it’s a new type of trauma – and also a relief. They feel relieved that they discovered what’s wrong, but they’re often re-traumatized. Because the wrong kind of support can worsen the trauma. Most professionals don’t understand that emotional abuse and coercion are what’s causing the betrayal trauma. Instead, they blame women and say she is the cause. This can be confusing and frustrating.

It’s imperative that you find the right help, because this stage of addiction recovery counseling or couple therapy will make things worse. Our daily, online Group Sessions are a safe place where only women will share their betrayal trauma experiences. We’d love to see you in a session today.

When you finally get the right kind of support and education, the puzzle pieces begin to fit together. You’ll recognize betrayal trauma for what it is, and you’ll start to see abusive patterns for what they’ve been all along.

You will see that lying and gaslighting are not your fault. These actions are done on purpose to hurt and control you. This is when many people stop blaming themselves. Then, they start setting rules to keep themselves safe, both emotionally and physically.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women know exactly what’s going on and gives them safety strategies to protect themselves from this type of emotional and psychological abuse.

The final stage is applying what you’ve learned to gain more and more emotional and psychological safety. At BTR.ORG, we help survivors protect their thoughts from manipulation and trauma. First, you’ll learn how to create a safe life for yourself. This could mean leaving an abusive husband or building strong emotional boundaries. Next, you’ll start to see how strong and capable you are. Step by step, you’ll gain the tools to feel safe and in control again.

Our coaches guide you step by step, so you feel calm and confident again.

Betrayal trauma can feel really hard to handle, but you don’t have to face it by yourself. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women feel safe and start healing. No matter if you’re in a relationship, separated, or divorced, we have tools and resources to support you every step of the way.

Anne: It’s just me today, I’m going to talk about, the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. And how important it was to figure out how to set boundaries with my husband. That’s where the Living Free Workshop comes in. Because safety is the treatment. Women see that once they’re emotionally and psychologically safe, their betrayal trauma symptoms almost completely disappear.

I started podcasting in 2016. A long time ago. If you look at the podcast feed, it doesn’t go back that far. And the reason it doesn’t go back that far is when I started podcasting, I learned in real time and shared my experience of attempting to get to safety.

As I studied, I also did over 300 long form interviews with betrayal trauma victims, both on the podcast and in person. Through doing that, I began to see clear patterns. And I was also running my own experiments, seeing what worked and what didn’t in my own life. And seeing what was working and not working in other women’s situations. I learned the 4 stages of betrayal trauma.

After discovering the Living Free strategies, I actually got to safety. And then I realized that many of these very old recordings also had incorrect information. Theories or principles that I was testing through trial and error that I now know do not work. I didn’t want to hurt any woman, so I removed that incorrect information. But today, I’m going to share several recordings from long ago, when I was still trying to learn how to apply the safety principles.

You’ll hear a section where I talk about helping my son visualize his emotions. And those same types of visualizations are the pattern I later used to write in the workshop. I used that to help me heal, and has since helped so many other women heal from the inside out.

Anne: As you listen to these old recordings, you’ll hear the seeds of all the services we have here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery being planted. And the rest of this episode is snippets from those old recordings. After seven years of attempting to “help my husband” deal with his addiction and his anger problems. He sprained my fingers and pushed me against the kitchen cabinets during an argument.

He was arrested for domestic violence. The judge gave him a no contact order, which is a protective order. And that was the first time I’d ever conceived that he was really an abusive person. I waited, hoping for him to take accountability, change, truly repent and return home to us for nine months. And he decided to file for divorce. During that nine months, I prayed and prayed. And the only answer I received was to start a podcast, which is how this podcast started.

I used to go by the name Anon, Anne Blythe is not my real name. My friend had a Facebook account with the name Anne Blythe. Named after Anne Blythe from Anne of Green Gables. I ended up adopting that name and that Facebook account to represent all of us, because my story is the universal story. The details might be a little bit different, but we all go through a period of trying to “help our husbands” or support him this is one of the first stages of betrayal trauma.

Anne: I am an avid gardener. I have nine fruit trees, five 12 by two garden boxes, a huge section of my garden in my front yard, where I grow self-proclaimed prize winning pumpkins. On Monday, my five year old son and I planted the corn. It was such a sweet time. I dug the hole and he put the seed in. The obvious symbolism of faith that it takes to plant this seed so small and hope that in a few months we’ll have an eight foot stalk with delicious corn on it.

All my garlic is growing great, and I planted that in the fall. So planting a little bulb that, the next year, will turn into the most delicious, rich, buttery garlic. It’s called Romanian Red, and it’s amazing, and you can’t get it at the store. In my front yard, I have irises and tiger lilies, canna lilies and salvia. Every kind of beautiful perennial you can imagine. Every year they get better, bigger, and more beautiful.

It’s been almost three years since my ex’s arrest, and back then my front yard and all the perennials were kind of sad. It was like three irises that came up, but now they’re gorgeous. Everyone comments on how beautiful my garden is. I didn’t know that my garden would be so beautiful, but I had faith that it would be. And I dug things up, I split plants, and I moved things around.

And had faith that my hard work would pay off, and it has. I have not yet seen the hard work pay off with my setting boundaries.

Anne: My life is still really hard. I’m a single mom of three kids. Life is hard every day. It’s hard to get dinner on the table. It’s hard to keep the house clean, it’s really stressful and very overwhelming.

There are days when I sit on the couch and stare into space, and then end up crying because I’m overwhelmed. I’m still nervous about the future. I still don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. But if my garden is any indication, as I stand there, especially my front yard with all the beautiful perennial flowers, I’m like, this feels safe, and this feels secure, and guess what else?

Beautiful, I have faith that my life will be beautiful like that. My garden has evolved to be something amazing. Maybe I will evolve to be something amazing someday. Right now, it seems like I’m still digging around in the dirt with nothing to show for it. Talk about late bloomer, I’m like the world’s latest bloomer, ha ha. But maybe when I do, I’ll be like that big, beautiful iris.

I want to talk about nightmares for a minute. My ex was supposedly in recovery, but I was still having nightmares. In the dreams, I was a single mom, and I knew I needed a husband. So I was like, there was that one guy I remember him. He was kind of nice. Where is he now? Why isn’t he here? And then I would try and find him and then I would find him and he would be kind of mean to me, brush me off. That was the nightmare. I had different forms of that all the time.

Anne: I remember I would put my hand over on him and touch him, and be like, oh good. It was just a dream, whew, like every night. And then I would tell him about it, and I would say, I’m having these nightmares. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Everything seems fine with us. One night when I was lying in bed right next to him, I said, I’ve been having these nightmares.

Not knowing this was one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I really feel like something bad’s gonna happen. And I didn’t pause to let him speak. I said, yeah, but it’s just crazy. It must just be me. I’m still mentally messed up. Well, he never said anything about it. But now that I look back, he not only didn’t say anything, and I talked myself out of it.

But he also didn’t try and comfort me. There was a woman I talked to recently. She said, I’m having nightmares almost every night, but I wake up and look at him and everything’s fine. And I said, when you tell him about your nightmares, how far away is he? Is he standing more than four feet away from you? Looking at you, but not responding? She started crying. She said, that’s exactly what’s happening. Confusion is one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma.

I said, I’m not sure what’s going on. But an empathetic, caring, connected person would not be four or five feet away in that situation. They would be giving you a hug. They’d say, I’m so sorry you’re having these nightmares. I love you. I care about you. Is there anything I can do? Something, some kind of connecting, interacting thing.

Anne: But the standing like four or five feet away with this blank stare on your face, like a deer in the headlights. And more and more as I hear these stories of women who have these nightmares. And then, months later, they find out something was really going on. Even though in their waking hours it seemed like everything was fine. Not to say that everyone who has a nightmare, her husband is lying.

Because thinking my husband was in recovery when he was not. He was lying to me and manipulating me. And I had those dreams. Now I see an indicator of a warning to me. Now that I’m disconnected from him. I rarely have those nightmares anymore.

I have a friend whose husband has labeled her borderline and kept taking her in to get help. Her husband had been lying to her and gaslighting her, and he had a double life. Addiction was going on, and this was a way for him to avoid anyone looking at him and making her look crazy. There’s no way to actually recover if you’re still being abused like this. This friend of mine, she has now separated herself from her abusive spouse, and her borderline symptoms are gone.

Now she’s having trauma symptoms. I have an unnamed autoimmune disorder. It’s not lupus, it’s not arthritis. I’ve been trying to get a diagnosis for a long time. I get super, super sleepy and all of my joints hurt really bad. So it has a lot of the same characteristics of these autoimmune diseases.

So the doctors are like, yep, you have one. We don’t know what it is, it’s unnamed. And we should call it the betrayal trauma autoimmune disorder.

Anne: I have spent so much time and money going to therapists, but not getting help for my trauma symptoms. I am paying them to sit there in their office and educate them about betrayal trauma. There was one therapist, it was like three months after my husband’s arrest. I was trying to convince her that my husband was abusive. It was crazy, wait a minute, what am I doing? I’m not going to her anymore. And I think she was confused because I didn’t want to divorce.

So she was like, you’re saying your husband’s abusive, but you don’t want to get a divorce. Like, I don’t know how to help you. Yes, he’s abusive, I don’t want to get a divorce, and I need help. Like, can you accept me where I am? And she had no idea how to help me. Part of my betrayal trauma symptoms were that I did not hear my children when they were talking to me.

And I wasn’t doing anything else. So I was available, and ready and willing to talk to them, but just didn’t hear them until they had said my name a few times. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, what is it? So zoning out, I found myself doing that frequently. So if I’m having a hard time concentrating. I feel the couch, maybe feel the couch fabric, maybe even touch my child’s arm, something that I can reconnect with the present moment.

I actually sat on the couch with my five year old son, and we just sat there for like, probably a half hour. And he was spouting off. I didn’t even know what he was talking about.

Anne: I was listening to him. And I was acknowledging him. I was looking him in the eyes. I was like, let’s have a stare contest. And we just looked at each other and smiled for a while. And it was just that I thought, Oh, this is what I’m trying to do. Okay, I’m going to be in the here and now with my daughter. And I’ll be available to you.

That’s, I think my biggest hurdle is, I’ve sat here with her for four minutes, and this is boring and I need to do the dishes. That’s what I’m struggling with the most right now.

When I stop and stare at my daughter, I think, how long do I have to do this for? I want to get better at it and more practiced. Until that is what I crave, those quiet moments with my children, and living in that moment with peace and stillness. And also, my soul needs that every day. We need a period of time of quiet, both spending time with ourselves in a quiet place, and spending time with the people that we love.

Anne: I’ve actually been doing visualization with my son every night about his emotions and his anger, and where he’s going to put it. One of the things we imagined was that he put all his feelings about how he doesn’t want to do his schoolwork. Like, I don’t want to do my work. I hate doing schoolwork, you know, that sort of thing in a box. And then if he was holding that box, could he pick up his pencil? to do his schoolwork. And he was like, no, I can’t.

So I said, well, where do you want to put the box? And he’s like, Oh, I’m just going to put it over here. And then he was like, Oh, mom, I can do my assignment now. He has improved significantly in his schoolwork. So using a betrayal meditation or visualization as a tool is an option for healing from betrayal trauma because I have used visualization before to be able to connect with my children.

Since that time, I haven’t solved all my problems. But in relation to my abusive ex husband, who abused me post divorce for eight years. I’m completely delivered from him, and so are my children. And I did this through the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies. I spent so much time and effort putting everything I learned over the years into that workshop,

Applying those strategies and having those strategies deliver us was for sure the miracle I had been praying for. And I hope you find all the strategies to be the miracle you’ve been praying for too.