Holly talks w/Dr. Carl Erik Fisher, addiction psychiatrist and author of The Urge, about the intersection of narcissism and addiction in our current cultural moment, and the paradox of how recovery culture itself can create new forms of self-obsession and addiction.

Key themes discussed: Living through institutional collapse and staying grounded; Anna Lembke's theory that endemic narcissism drives peak addiction; distinguishing between grandiose vs vulnerable narcissism and trait vs process narcissism; how 12-step programs were designed to deflate powerful men's egos but modern recovery often demands constant self-optimization; the difference between false refuges (money, power, status) and true refuges (community, spiritual connection, service); "ontological addiction" as attachment to fixed self-concepts; Carl's forthcoming book on self-control thru various forms of losing control; the need for healthy narcissism vs toxic self-obsession; navigating recovery in era that demands constant self-performance.

About Carl Eric Fisher

Carl Erik Fisher is an addiction physician, bioethicist, person in recovery, and author of The Urge: Our History of Addiction, named one of the best books of the year by The New Yorker and The Boston Globe. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and elsewhere. An associate professor at Columbia University, he draws from his academic studies, clinical work, and personal experience to explore addiction, self-control, and flourishing at the Substack newsletter Rat Park.

Carl's Substack newsletter: Rat Park

Carl's book: The Urge: Our History of Addiction available at Bookshop.org

Carl's website: carlerikfisher.com

Carl's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/flourishing-after-addiction-with-carl-erik-fisher/id1581713114

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates of Gracie and Rachel @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly reconnects with her friend and former podcast co-host (Quitted) Emily McDowell for a raw conversation about how extreme adversity can strip away everything that doesn't matter and reveal what does. After years of health crises, family loss, and business transitions, Emily describes arriving at a place of No Fucks Given that feels like coming home to herself. Together, they explore what it means to build real community, trust your body's wisdom, and stop proving yourself to the world.

Topics covered include how selling her business and facing health challenges (brain tumor, autoimmune thyroid condition) led Emily to question everything; the impact of her mother's sudden death on her relationship with money, work, and pleasure; Holly's parallel journey of family awakening and learning to trust her body over her mind; practical strategies for building intentional adult friendships with agreements and conflict resolution; the difference between self-love and self-friendship; why real community is inconvenient but necessary; discernment in relationships without guilt; and the shift from constantly striving to arriving in your own life.

About Emily McDowell

As an advisor, thought partner, and coach, Emily McDowell helps entrepreneurs answer the questions they can’t find the answers to. As founder and CEO of the stationery brand Em & Friends, Emily led the brand through explosive growth, and as a writer and illustrator, her work has gone viral countless times, and she has a decade-plus long track record of creating products that make people wonder if she’s been reading their diaries. Emily is also the co-author and illustrator of There Is No Good Card for This: What to Say and Do When Life Gets Scary, Awful, and Unfair to People You Love (HarperOne, 2017), and she offers unsolicited advice and missives from the great adventure of midlife in her newsletter, Subject to Change, a Substack Featured Publication of 2023. You can find her online at withemilymcdowell.com, and IRL in Portland, Oregon.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day, Afton Swenor

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Holly sits down with J Wortham, NYT Magazine staff writer, co-host of the Still Processing podcast, and co-editor of the anthology Black Futures. In this wide-ranging conversation, they explore how to navigate authoritarian times through spiritual practice, community building, and practical survivalism, while examining the tension between ambition and enoughness in creative work.

Topics covered

They discuss why current upheaval isn't new for people who've survived oppression; J's evolution from tech journalism to culture writing through curiosity rather than ambition; the collapse of arts funding + how institutions are becoming irrelevant; moving beyond performative activism toward genuine relationship + conflict resolution; practical survivalism rooted in mutual aid rather than individualistic prepping; learning skills like fermentation, sewing, fire-making as acts of self-reliance and community care; the difference btw online/ offline community building with high barriers to entry and no easy exits; Hurricane Sandy as a radicalizing moment about infrastructure failure and mutual aid; why black people are "early adopters" who see cultural shifts before they become mainstream; spiritual practices including ancestor reverence and staying present during uncertainty; the corrupting nature of external validation versus doing good work at a manageable scale; how trauma responses can inform healthy preparedness without falling into scarcity thinking; and building solidarity across difference through embracing rather than avoiding conflict.

About J Wortham

J Wortham (they/them) is a sound healer, herbalist, and community care worker, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, co-host of the podcast ‘Still Processing,, writer of the channeling newsletter, editor of the visual anthology “Black Futures,” and is also currently working on a book for Penguin Press. 

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this first episode, Holly talks with Chris La Tray, Métis storyteller, Montana Poet Laureate, and author of the brilliant and timely memoir Becoming Little Shell. Chris shares the story of his people—the Little Shell Tribe, who remained landless for over a century after refusing to accept an exploitative treaty—and what their resilience teaches us about playing the long game in dark times.

They discuss why current political upheaval represents familiar patterns to Indigenous peoples who have survived 500 years of colonialism; how Chief Little Shell's principled refusal to accept 10 cents per acre for tribal lands led to 150 years of landlessness before achieving federal recognition in 2019; Chris's evolution from reluctant storyteller to understanding himself as chosen to carry forward his people's narratives; the tension between building a personal writing career and serving community stories; practical acts of cultural reclamation like using Anishinaabe greetings in daily life; the goldfinch story that taught him to stay open to ancestral guidance; what it means to play the long game and build something you may never see completed; moving beyond performative activism toward genuine relationship with Indigenous perspectives; the difference between cultural appropriation and authentic honoring; why asking "what should I do?" isn't the most helpful question for non-Native allies; how individual choices like canceling Netflix connect to larger systemic change; the psychological and spiritual costs of principled dissent across generations; and the responsibility that comes with privilege and platform in storytelling.

About Chris La Tray

Chris La Tray is a Métis storyteller, descendant of the Pembina Band of the Mighty Red River of the North, and enrolled member of the Little Shell Tribe. He served as Montana Poet Laureate from 2023-2025 and has made his living as an artist since 2015. His books include One Sentence Journal and Becoming Little Shell: A Homecoming. He writes the newsletter "An Irritable Métis" on Substack.

Substack: https://chrislatray.substack.com/

Book: https://milkweed.org/book/becoming-little-shell

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day, Afton Swenor

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

co-regulation is a podcast hosted by Holly Whitaker (HOME, QUITTED) that creates space for authentic conversations about how we're navigating this period of societal upheaval and profound transition. Through conversations with thinkers, artists, and experts, informed by Holly's perspective on addiction, recovery, and the intersection of personal healing and cultural systems, this show invites listeners into real-time exploration of how we're living through unprecedented change—not as isolated individuals, but as interconnected beings whose nervous systems regulate better together than apart.

In the aftermath of the 2024 election and accelerating pressure on our social systems, the limitations of the American experiment have become impossible to ignore. Every day exposes the myth that we can solve collective problems through individual achievement, consumption choices, or personal virtue. We've inherited a story that places the burden of global salvation on our individual shoulders while the architects of collapse profit from the fallout.

co-regulation emerges from Holly's direct experience: when consumed by the pressure to fix broken systems personally, she becomes incapacitated. Her nervous system remains in perpetual fight-or-flight. But when she connects with others wrestling with the same questions, something shifts. Our bodies literally calm in each other's presence. Solutions emerge not from heroic individual efforts but from the space between us.

Credits

Original music by Gracie Coates (of Gracie and Rachel) @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

Support the show

co-regulation is listener-supported, made possible by us and by you; you can support this podcast by joining our Patreon community patreon.com/coregulation

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.