Ex-it Strategy

Jamie bought Blackman Detective Services in November of last year, and they provide full-service PI work. They help attorneys, businesses, and individuals with everything from background checks to criminal investigations, process services, and all the "fun stuff."

In a previous episode, we talked about the alienation of affection and the cheating that goes on in relationships, and how that affects divorce and legal separation. What is needed in court to prove infidelity is inclination and opportunity. It can be difficult to prove, but phone records and evidence collected from a private investigator can seal the deal.

Jamie talks about what it is like following a cheating spouse, what they can and cannot do. 

We talk about what an initial consult with a private investigator sounds like and the next steps to start an investigation. 

Can trackers be used on cars by private investigators? Yes, but there are rules. 
Can you legally record a cheating spouse? We get into the specifics.

The EX-it strategy asks Jamie what most people's reaction is when presented with evidence of infidelity from a private investigator. Often it's denial. Is there a difference in reaction between men and women? Jamie's answer is, "hurt is hurt."

As long as the case originates in North Carolina, Blackman Detective Services can follow that case out of state. They often find workers in other states. 

Blackman starts with a retainer and often is billed hourly. A normal domestic case can cost anywhere from $1000-$7000. 

We ask what her weirdest case was. The answer may surprise you.

We offer some next steps for spouses who cannot afford legal representation or the services of a private investigator and organizations that can provide help.

You can also check out the Blackman Detective Agency's podcast called "The Sleuth" wherever you get your podcasts.  

Dr. Susan Orenstein is a licensed psychologist and the founder and director of Orenstein Solutions. Susan has committed her professional career to help individuals and couples improve their relationships. She helps her clients learn to communicate more effectively and build intimacy inside and outside of the bedroom. 

In our previous episode, we talked about the fallout of affairs and we discuss the emotional side of affairs with Dr. Susan.

Dr. Susan believes that the deceit involved with an affair is one of the most challenging emotions to work through. 

We discuss the reasons people cheat with Dr. Susan

• A mid-life crisis
• Travel for work without setting proper boundaries
• Substance abuse
• A personal crisis that you are not addressing directly
• An exit strategy from an unhappy relationship

Dr. Susan has a podcast called "After the First Marriage" Do you need a sounding board to help you through a divorce? If you’re inundated with divorce advice and aren’t sure how to sift through the good, the bad, and the ugly, tune into the After the First Marriage podcast.

We discuss how couples get intimate again after an affair. Dr. Susan describes several scenarios from her experience counseling couples. And we discuss dealing with the fallout of emotional affairs. 

Find out more about Dr. Susan at www.orensteinsolutions.com 

Decisions made to have a physical affair will have an effect on the divorce proceedings, spousal support, and sometimes custody. 

In our experience, emotional affairs carry many of the same consequences of physical affairs and occasionally feel more insidious than the actual affair.

We discuss many of the "why's?" that lead up to an affair. 

Is the statement, "Once a cheater, always a cheater" true? 

What is surprising to many people is that in NC it is actually a crime to have an affair.  It's fornication and adultery under the criminal statutes which is a class two felony that doesn't just apply to adultery. It's any adults not married to each other who shall lewdly and lavishly associate, bed, and cohabitate together, They're guilty of a class, two misdemeanors.

This is why we advise our clients to plead the fifth on related questions when in court.

We talk about what evidence we need to collect to prove that an affair happened in a court of law. The answers may surprise you: inclination and opportunity.

We get into the details of the financial repercussions of an affair, who gets awarded what in court, what gets awarded to dependent spouses, custody of children in an affair, and the use of private investigators. We will be joined by a private investigator in the next episode.

We talk about the role of forgiveness in an affair and what that means legally should you get divorced sometime in the future.

NC is one of the few states, six states, that have alienation of affection which is a legal means to sue the paramour (person who was the other person in an affair) If you can to show that you had a loving and strong marriage and this person came in and destroyed that relationship then you can sue them for damages for destroying that relationship.

Lesli shared why she got started in her practice. A little girl was brought to her who was the rope in her parents' tug of war who was only five at the time. She realized she needed to work with the parents to really be effective at helping people in her situation.

We talk about the myth of the "Mind reading school of marriage." Where we wrongly assume that our spouse can read our mind, know what we're thinking, and what we desire them to do. The solution is to spend a lot of time talking about our expectations.

"Many times you don't know you have expectations until someone violates them." -Lesli

There are some common things that people hear about marriage that it takes work, and it takes compromise, and it takes sacrifice. And I say, if you're doing any of those things, you're heading down the wrong path. When we think of compromise, we think you give up something. I give up something, we meet in the middle sacrifice. We're giving up something. It's the giving up that's the problem. If I feel like I have to give up something, then I opened the door to resentment. Versus if we negotiate to a decision, we're choosing this path. Meaning that the other paths aren't being chosen, we're not giving them up. We're just choosing this and it's a much more positive way of looking at it.

Marriage is a very unique relationship. There are things that undermine it and things that make it stronger. Successful relationships find ways to address those issues. There is also no "normal."

Some of the Ex-It Strategies clients come into the relationship not knowing how they grew apart and what Lesli lets her clients know is that if that's the situation you find yourself in you can learn to grow back together, if you want to.

We discuss discernment counseling. It is a form of counseling that helps people make a decision to either get married, stay married, or file for divorce. It's a very specialized type of counseling that Lesli is trained in. 

What are irreconcilable differences?

• One of you wants children and the other doesn't
• One of you wants to be monogamous and the other doesn't

Other than those two most things can be worked through by a couple willing to do the work.

For Lesli, any issue that someone is addressing is a sign that the marriage can work.

Lesli breaks down her program to help people work through the "chore wars" with the division of labor in the household. It may not ever be equal but you can make it equitable. 

Is there a good time to leave a marriage? Our answer is if you are in danger. Questions to consider:

• Do you feel safe?
• Are you scared?
• Are your children safe?

It is time to get a domestic violence protective order. We do that because you can't make the other person go.

Other than that specific situation the answer to when is the good time to leave is: It depends.

Many people decide to wait until the kids are out of high school. We discuss the pros and cons of this approach, but again your situation is different and there is no cookie-cutter answer. That's where a counselor and attorney can help you sort out your feelings to make a decision. 

So what if you decide to leave?
We get a lot of questions about how finances will be handled.

There are two main issues to consider. Many people focus on growing their careers and let their unhappy relationships go to the backburner. However, while you are out there building your empire you need to remember that your spouse will likely share in the financial benefits of your effort. Also, people find themselves in the position of wanting to separate but realizing that they cannot afford to split.

We discuss spousal support and what judges want to see from people seeking this type of compensation in a divorce. 

What about affairs? When is the right time to leave? Again the answer is "it depends." It really comes into play with spousal support and custody. This may be the time to hire a private investigator.  If you are contemplating an affair we advise that you should separate first. The amount of complexity it will add to a divorce is not worth the hassle. 

If you choose to work through the affair you can also consider a post-nuptial agreement that lays out what would happen if another affair would occur. 

Elizabeth is from Cary, NC and she grew up in a toxic family with an abusive father. Her parents stayed together for the kids. This is something they hear all the time as family law attorneys. Part of that is why she focuses on family law and it's all she has done professionally. Elizabeth has a master's and bachelor's in social work and worked in the nonprofit field before she began her practice. She has been married and divorced when her child was two so has experienced many of the aspects of divorce both personally and professionally. 

Sarah is a native of Raleigh, went to law school at Cambell. She discovered family law and fell in love with it. She loves dealing with people and getting to know them and why they tick. She is a big fan of true crime and juicy stories about understand why people do the things they do and the psychology behind it. She also loves going to court and litigating, the aspect of law that is arguing the law and what's right, and why things should be the way they are as opposed to what the other side things. So family law allows her to practice all these passions while getting to help people and walk beside them on the road of separation, divorce, and custody battles.

Many people may assume the work of family law attorneys would be depressing, but Elizabeth and Sarah feel it's the best job in the world because they get to help make people's lives better every single day.

People don't get married thinking this is only going to last a short time. Most go into it thinking it is for life so when it ends it is like a death. It's traumatic. On this show, we are going to share the good, the bad, the ugly, and over 30 years of stories. Laughter can be a potent medicine to deal with trauma and hardship and we're here to help you find some relief and let you know other people are dealing with this too. You're not crazy for feeling your feelings.

You will also hear from Jen Bordeaux, who is our director of public relations during the show. She helps keep us on track and reach out to the community. We also plan on having special guests to walk through these important and interesting topics on upcoming episodes.

We hope to walk with this through you so when you come out on the other side you go from victim to victor and from bitter to better.

Legal disclaimer:

The information in this podcast is provided for general information purposes. Only it may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction. We are North Carolina attorneys. And by listening to this episode or any of the other episodes, you understand that there is no attorney-client relationship between you and New Direction Family Law, or Elizabeth, or Sarah and there's no attorney-client relationship here. No information contained in this episode should be construed as legal advice from us or the individual author host guests or anyone else we have on this podcast. And it's not intended to be substituted for legal counsel or subject matter in anything else. No listener of this episode should act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information provided. Included in or assessable through this episode without seeking appropriate legal advice on your particular facts.