The ruling is on the domestic violence protective order. You have to allege certain relationship statuses to have standing to really move for this under our current statutes. 

Currently, you have to show that you are spouses or former spouses to get a domestic violence protective order.  Or that you are persons of the opposite sex who are not married, but had lived together or currently live together, that you have a child in common or a parent and child or grandparent-grandchild relationship.  

Those words "opposite sex" are in our statute. You could not, before this case came down, if you were in a same-sex relationship, seek a domestic violence protective order. Until this came down we were the only state in the country that did not provide equal protection for people who are in a same-sex relationship. 

At the trial court level, the plaintiff, the person asking for the protective order went to the domestic violence court in Wake County and asked for this. And the judge said these facts are egregious. This is awful what happened. And where had you been in an Opposite sex relationship you would get a protective order, but since you are not, I cannot find that domestic violence occurred because the statute does not afford that to you. And then that was appealed to the court of appeals, which is where we got our recent order from thankfully. 

If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship what are some resources/options for them?

• Reach out to Interact of Wake County
• Talk to a friend or loved one that you trust and make a plan to get out of that relationship
• Talk to an attorney

Back in the day, we had the tender years doctrine that if you had a small child that the mother stayed home for most of it. That played into many custody decisions. The roles of men and women in marriage have changed a lot in the past 50 years. The current law says there is no preference one way or another. 

Although most of the cases we try are boobs versus dudes, there are cases where it's dudes versus dudes or boobs versus boobs... 

While we empathize with parents who are living in a new normal where they don't get to see their child as often as they would like because of divorce, it's not always the case anymore that custody goes to the mother. Many fathers step up and that's what we want to see because it is often in the best interest of the children.

Just because dad hasn't done it, doesn't mean he can't or doesn't deserve a chance to try.  

Most cases in wake county start at 50-50 custody agreement with no preference. 

You can't take a 100% household and divide it into two 100% houses. There will need to be a compromise. 

We discuss the difference between temporary and permanent custody orders. 

We talk about nesting, where the kids stay in the same house and mom and dad rotate into that home. 

We talk about how sometimes in a courtroom the judge will admonish the parents for being vindictive or not putting the best interest of the kids ahead of their personal feelings. 

We talk about the current news of Kelly Clarkson's divorce who was recently awarded primary physical custody due to trust issues between the parties and there being conflict. 
 

MYTH #1 - Prenups are only for the rich and famous

Prenups are like insurance for your marriage, never think about divorce when you are getting married but it happens. You don't necessarily have to have wealth at the time you are married but you should have a plan for the wealth you may acquire.  

MYTH #2 - Most divorces are nasty drawn-out battles in court

Most? No. Some? Yes. Many people are able to discuss things, have an agreement, and can be simple. 

MYTH #3 - If your spouse cheats on you, you will get primary custody of the children

False. The worst husband can be the best father and the worst wife can be the best mother. The only time it will come into play is if your spouse developed a relationship with someone who is not a good person to be around the kids. This could be alcohol or drug problems, etc.

MYTH #4 - There has to be someone at fault to be able to get a divorce in North Carolina

We are a no-fault divorce state, you have to be separated for a year and a day and only one of you has to have the intent to be separated. 

MYTH #5 - Divorce without kids are easier

It is not necessarily easier without kids. Pain is pain. Hurt is hurt. There are a lot of different aspects to separation and divorce and you can't necessarily compare yourself with other people.

MYTH #6 - You have to file "separation papers" in order to file for divorce

If you walk out the door with the intent to be separated permanently, you are legally separated and the year and one-day timer start ticking. It does not have anything to do with property, kids, or spousal support. You are separated for all intents and purposes, whether that person wants to be or not, you do not have to be served with anything.

MYTH #7 - I can't move out without an agreement in place because that is abandonment

It is and it isn't. Most of the time it is not. We unpack the differences in our discussion.

MYTH #8 - If we have equal custody, there won't be child support.

In theory that can be true, but it is more than custody time that is taken into consideration. If he makes $150K and she makes $30K then there will likely be child support. This is calculated on guidelines. 

MYTH #9 - We've only been married a short time, we need an annulment.

Annulments are rare. Things like illegal marriages, incest, fraud, bigamy, mental disease, and impotence but not the short amount of time many people believe is an option. There may be looser laws in Vegas, but in North Carolina, if you are married for a week, you need to be separated for a year before you can get a divorce. 

MYTH #10 - I can't get a divorce because my spouse won't agree to it or sign

It just takes one person to not want to be married. The sheriff will take them their papers.

MYTH #11 - My ex will sign his or her parental rights away

This is not possible. You can relinquish your rights, but there has to be a termination proceeding against you. And that has to be legitimate, you can't just file it or sign a paper.  

MYTH #12 - Even though we are separated, my spouse is sleeping with someone else... That's an affair, right?

Legally that's correct, but mostly it is not. It is not a law that is often enforced. We cannot legally recommend that you commit an antiquated crime. 

Many people usually think family law attorneys are female. Chris talks through his experiences practicing in a small town to now practicing in Raleigh. Chris has been practicing law for 10 years and is originally from Benson NC.

We discuss the differences in family law courts in rural counties and city counties. Especially in regards to standard visitations. Judges are limited to an hour to hear your case and they start with 50/50 custody and unless something significant is brought up that is usually the normal ruling. 

Often times people have an opinion about whether they want their divorce lawyer to be male or female, all our attorneys are very qualified and care about who the client is now what they are. 

We ask Chris about working with clients to reach goals that we as their attorney's know they cannot reach. His response: "Regardless of how we think factually or whatnot, their feelings are valid, they are living it. And that's what I tell them a lot of times in that first meeting. I say I've known you for an hour. I don't know your soon to be Ex from Adam. I am hearing what you're saying and we're going to try to do the best we can. My job is to make your life a little bit better by the time we are done, I really cannot solve all your problems."

We talk about how Christmas and the pandemic has made a crazy season for divorce lawyers. 

More about Chris: 
Chris is a native North Carolinian, born and raised in Benson.  After attending the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill where he double-majored in Political Science and Communications, Chris graduated from the Saint Louis University School of Law. Chris joined a law firm in Harnett County shortly after graduating and returned back to North Carolina.

Chris’ early practice focused on family law, but also involved criminal defense, civil litigation, competency proceedings, juvenile defense, veteran’s treatment courts and cases against the Department of Social Services.  With this broad range of experience, Chris has been exposed to the many issues that clients may be experiencing during a separation.  More importantly, he has helped people going through all types of crises, whether it’s divorce, death, addiction or mental illness.

Chris has narrowed his practice to family law, as this allows him to pursue his passion of connecting with people who need help during difficult times. He also enjoys the process of litigation, from the initial client meeting all the way to trial. Chris works hard to be a champion for his clients through what can seem like a daunting and overwhelming experience.

Away from the office, Chris spends his free time with his wife and daughter, visiting Raleigh-Durham’s museums, restaurants and parks.  He also enjoys golf, basketball and fishing.

Having been involved in the IT industry for 30 years, Derek has seen the change in perception from what personal computers used to seem safe because people used them in the privacy of their homes, to today when it is easy to trace our activities online. He also notices the courtships and illicit affairs are accelerated by technology.

He also unpacks retro sex, which is a phenomenon of reconnecting with someone you haven't seen in 10-30 years and hooking up with them after reconnecting digitally.

In his career of going through 1000s of phones and devices, he has seen virtually everything.

In digital forensics, everything leaves a trace. You may not be able to recover deleted info but you can usually find a trace.

"If someone is engaging in a lot of misconduct, even if it's not infidelity if it's gambling or poor habits... even if they try to cover their tracks, there is going to be some information."

Derek shares a story about a man who was using prostitutes and found a creative way to issue payment. The women he associated with all had amazon wish lists, and he would purchase the items off their list so the only thing he looked guilty of was having a bad amazon habit.

One of the areas that they look at a lot is video game communities. People who play games online can develop just as strong as a relationship as those in real life. If you're a parent who thinks your kid is too young for a phone, but they have a video game platform with an internet connection and camera, you may need to take a closer look.

Derek talked about online privacy, and what happens when privacy is compromised.

You can find out more about Derek on his website. And watch his talk on TikTok mentioned in this epsiode.

Jamie bought Blackman Detective Services in November of last year, and they provide full-service PI work. They help attorneys, businesses, and individuals with everything from background checks to criminal investigations, process services, and all the "fun stuff."

In a previous episode, we talked about the alienation of affection and the cheating that goes on in relationships, and how that affects divorce and legal separation. What is needed in court to prove infidelity is inclination and opportunity. It can be difficult to prove, but phone records and evidence collected from a private investigator can seal the deal.

Jamie talks about what it is like following a cheating spouse, what they can and cannot do. 

We talk about what an initial consult with a private investigator sounds like and the next steps to start an investigation. 

Can trackers be used on cars by private investigators? Yes, but there are rules. 
Can you legally record a cheating spouse? We get into the specifics.

The EX-it strategy asks Jamie what most people's reaction is when presented with evidence of infidelity from a private investigator. Often it's denial. Is there a difference in reaction between men and women? Jamie's answer is, "hurt is hurt."

As long as the case originates in North Carolina, Blackman Detective Services can follow that case out of state. They often find workers in other states. 

Blackman starts with a retainer and often is billed hourly. A normal domestic case can cost anywhere from $1000-$7000. 

We ask what her weirdest case was. The answer may surprise you.

We offer some next steps for spouses who cannot afford legal representation or the services of a private investigator and organizations that can provide help.

You can also check out the Blackman Detective Agency's podcast called "The Sleuth" wherever you get your podcasts.  

Dr. Susan Orenstein is a licensed psychologist and the founder and director of Orenstein Solutions. Susan has committed her professional career to help individuals and couples improve their relationships. She helps her clients learn to communicate more effectively and build intimacy inside and outside of the bedroom. 

In our previous episode, we talked about the fallout of affairs and we discuss the emotional side of affairs with Dr. Susan.

Dr. Susan believes that the deceit involved with an affair is one of the most challenging emotions to work through. 

We discuss the reasons people cheat with Dr. Susan

• A mid-life crisis
• Travel for work without setting proper boundaries
• Substance abuse
• A personal crisis that you are not addressing directly
• An exit strategy from an unhappy relationship

Dr. Susan has a podcast called "After the First Marriage" Do you need a sounding board to help you through a divorce? If you’re inundated with divorce advice and aren’t sure how to sift through the good, the bad, and the ugly, tune into the After the First Marriage podcast.

We discuss how couples get intimate again after an affair. Dr. Susan describes several scenarios from her experience counseling couples. And we discuss dealing with the fallout of emotional affairs. 

Find out more about Dr. Susan at www.orensteinsolutions.com 

Decisions made to have a physical affair will have an effect on the divorce proceedings, spousal support, and sometimes custody. 

In our experience, emotional affairs carry many of the same consequences of physical affairs and occasionally feel more insidious than the actual affair.

We discuss many of the "why's?" that lead up to an affair. 

Is the statement, "Once a cheater, always a cheater" true? 

What is surprising to many people is that in NC it is actually a crime to have an affair.  It's fornication and adultery under the criminal statutes which is a class two felony that doesn't just apply to adultery. It's any adults not married to each other who shall lewdly and lavishly associate, bed, and cohabitate together, They're guilty of a class, two misdemeanors.

This is why we advise our clients to plead the fifth on related questions when in court.

We talk about what evidence we need to collect to prove that an affair happened in a court of law. The answers may surprise you: inclination and opportunity.

We get into the details of the financial repercussions of an affair, who gets awarded what in court, what gets awarded to dependent spouses, custody of children in an affair, and the use of private investigators. We will be joined by a private investigator in the next episode.

We talk about the role of forgiveness in an affair and what that means legally should you get divorced sometime in the future.

NC is one of the few states, six states, that have alienation of affection which is a legal means to sue the paramour (person who was the other person in an affair) If you can to show that you had a loving and strong marriage and this person came in and destroyed that relationship then you can sue them for damages for destroying that relationship.

Lesli shared why she got started in her practice. A little girl was brought to her who was the rope in her parents' tug of war who was only five at the time. She realized she needed to work with the parents to really be effective at helping people in her situation.

We talk about the myth of the "Mind reading school of marriage." Where we wrongly assume that our spouse can read our mind, know what we're thinking, and what we desire them to do. The solution is to spend a lot of time talking about our expectations.

"Many times you don't know you have expectations until someone violates them." -Lesli

There are some common things that people hear about marriage that it takes work, and it takes compromise, and it takes sacrifice. And I say, if you're doing any of those things, you're heading down the wrong path. When we think of compromise, we think you give up something. I give up something, we meet in the middle sacrifice. We're giving up something. It's the giving up that's the problem. If I feel like I have to give up something, then I opened the door to resentment. Versus if we negotiate to a decision, we're choosing this path. Meaning that the other paths aren't being chosen, we're not giving them up. We're just choosing this and it's a much more positive way of looking at it.

Marriage is a very unique relationship. There are things that undermine it and things that make it stronger. Successful relationships find ways to address those issues. There is also no "normal."

Some of the Ex-It Strategies clients come into the relationship not knowing how they grew apart and what Lesli lets her clients know is that if that's the situation you find yourself in you can learn to grow back together, if you want to.

We discuss discernment counseling. It is a form of counseling that helps people make a decision to either get married, stay married, or file for divorce. It's a very specialized type of counseling that Lesli is trained in. 

What are irreconcilable differences?

• One of you wants children and the other doesn't
• One of you wants to be monogamous and the other doesn't

Other than those two most things can be worked through by a couple willing to do the work.

For Lesli, any issue that someone is addressing is a sign that the marriage can work.

Lesli breaks down her program to help people work through the "chore wars" with the division of labor in the household. It may not ever be equal but you can make it equitable. 

Is there a good time to leave a marriage? Our answer is if you are in danger. Questions to consider:

• Do you feel safe?
• Are you scared?
• Are your children safe?

It is time to get a domestic violence protective order. We do that because you can't make the other person go.

Other than that specific situation the answer to when is the good time to leave is: It depends.

Many people decide to wait until the kids are out of high school. We discuss the pros and cons of this approach, but again your situation is different and there is no cookie-cutter answer. That's where a counselor and attorney can help you sort out your feelings to make a decision. 

So what if you decide to leave?
We get a lot of questions about how finances will be handled.

There are two main issues to consider. Many people focus on growing their careers and let their unhappy relationships go to the backburner. However, while you are out there building your empire you need to remember that your spouse will likely share in the financial benefits of your effort. Also, people find themselves in the position of wanting to separate but realizing that they cannot afford to split.

We discuss spousal support and what judges want to see from people seeking this type of compensation in a divorce. 

What about affairs? When is the right time to leave? Again the answer is "it depends." It really comes into play with spousal support and custody. This may be the time to hire a private investigator.  If you are contemplating an affair we advise that you should separate first. The amount of complexity it will add to a divorce is not worth the hassle. 

If you choose to work through the affair you can also consider a post-nuptial agreement that lays out what would happen if another affair would occur.