If you’ve spent more than five minutes on TikTok, Reddit, or Instagram, you’ve seen it everywhere: “My co-parent is a narcissist.” And we get why that label feels validating. It gives your pain a name.

But here’s the problem: labels don’t carry weight in court — behavior does. And when you lead with a diagnosis you can’t prove, you risk looking reactive, emotional, or unreliable in the one place where credibility matters most.

In this episode, we’re joined by two powerhouse custody attorneys — Kristen Holstrom and Samantha McBride (the Custody Queens) — to explain what actually helps you win: specific facts, consistent documentation, strong boundaries, and a strategy that keeps you from getting pulled into emotional warfare.

1. Why calling your ex a narcissist can backfire legally and emotionally
2. The difference between traits vs. a true clinical diagnosis (and why it rarely shows up in court)
3. What judges care about most in custody cases: co-parenting and facilitating the other parent’s relationship
4. How to build a case using patterns, timelines, and evidence
5. Why social media is forever (even if you delete it)
6. How co-parenting apps like OurFamilyWizard can protect you and create documentation
7. “Chess, not checkers”: how to stop reacting and start controlling your side of the street
8. Why custody evaluations can go sideways when you show up with labels instead of facts

Courts don’t decide custody based on “he’s a narcissist.” They decide based on what happened, how often, and how it impacts the children.

If you sound like you’re diagnosing your ex, you may unintentionally look like the unstable one — especially in high-stakes settings like custody evaluations.

Posting, reposting, liking, or commenting on “narcissist” content can be used against you. Even deleted posts can come back via screenshots.

Tools like OurFamilyWizard don’t mean you failed. They mean you’re building guardrails and a paper trail.

When you’re organized, strategic, and documenting the right things, you get your power back.

1. Drop the label. Keep the facts.
2. Replace “He’s a narcissist” with: “He missed 7 pickups in 30 days.”
3. Build a timeline.
4. Dates, times, missed exchanges, late pickups, medical info withheld, school info excluded.
5. Get specific court orders.
6. Vague orders create chaos. Specificity creates enforcement.
7. Use a co-parenting app (OurFamilyWizard or similar).
8. Keep communication child-focused and court-friendly.
9. Stop feeding the fire on social media.
10. No posting. No subtweeting. No “oops I deleted it.” None.
11. Clean your side of the street.
12. Judges watch who facilitates co-parenting — even with a difficult person.

1. 00:00 — “If you’re calling your ex a narcissist… that might hurt you.”
2. 01:03 — Meet the guests: Kristen Holstrom & Samantha McBride (“Custody Queens”)
3. 02:17 — “Labels don’t carry weight; behavior does.”
4. 03:12 — Why “narcissist” and “parental alienation” can reduce credibility
5. 06:37 — What judges care about most in custody cases
6. 07:52 — “How many times have I seen a formal diagnosis? Zero.”
7. 09:45 — Why the “narcissist” label can be a compliment (and a distraction)
8. 10:02 — Why your therapist shouldn’t diagnose your ex
9. 12:29 — Social media: what happens when it gets used in court
10. 16:07 — Andrea’s confession: when your own texts become the problem
11. 18:14 — Likes and shares can derail settlement
12. 19:46 — “Party favors” story + chain-of-texts problem
13. 22:26 — You’re divorcing them… but you’re still co-parenting
14. 26:45 — Custody evaluations: how labels can flip the spotlight onto you
15. 29:07 — The right way to present problems: evidence, examples, documentation
16. 35:32 — OurFamilyWizard: why it protects BOTH parents
17. 37:21 — “Legal strategy replaces emotional storytelling.”
18. 39:14 — “Power is preparation.”
19. 40:04 — Rapid-fire recap: the one thing each guest wants you to remember
20. 48:05 — Final takeaway: courts respond to facts, not labels
21. 50:18 — You’re going to be okay — minute by minute if needed

Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS and Samantha McBride, CFLS are managing partners of Custody Queens, focused on high-conflict, complex custody cases. They also host podcasts Custody Queens On Air and CQ Off the Clock, and share custody and co-parenting education across social platforms. https://custodyqueens.com/

Follow them:

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

One minute you feel strong, clear-headed, and relieved… and the next you’re sobbing in your car wondering if you just destroyed your life. If you feel emotionally unrecognizable during divorce, you are not alone—and you’re not “doing it wrong.”

In this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce, attorney Morgan Stogsdill and comedian/marketing guru Andrea Rappaport break down the emotional rollercoaster of divorce—why it happens, why it’s normal, and how letting emotions drive decisions can create legal and financial consequences you can’t unwind.

You’ll learn how to adopt emotional neutrality (without becoming emotionless), why realistic expectations protect your sanity, and the exact do’s and don’ts that help you stay grounded—especially when kids and co-parenting are involved.

1. Why divorce triggers “emotional whiplash” (relief, guilt, rage, panic, regret—sometimes all at once)
2. The difference between feelings vs. facts in divorce decision-making
3. Why emotional highs aren’t the problem—expectations are
4. Why emotional lows don’t mean you’re making the wrong choice
5. What “emotional neutrality” actually means (and why it’s self-preservation)
6. How to ask your attorney for realistic expectations and a Plan B
7. The biggest mistakes people make when they’re activated (and how to avoid them)
8. Practical ways to regulate your nervous system and get off the rollercoaster

If you’re in the early stages of divorce—or you’re already activated—here’s what Andrea and Morgan want you to do:

✅ 1) Adopt emotional neutrality

1. “That meeting went well. Okay.”
2. “That meeting didn’t go well. Okay.”
3. Neutrality is not numbness. It means your feelings are not in charge.

✅ 2) Ask for realistic expectations (every time)

When something goes well, ask your attorney:

1. “What’s a realistic expectation from here?”
2. “What if this strategy doesn’t work—what’s our Plan B?”

✅ 3) Don’t make permanent decisions in temporary emotional states

Morgan’s legal rule: if you’re activated, you pause—not react.

✅ 4) Stabilize with routine

Predictable routines regulate your nervous system when your life feels unpredictable.

✅ 5) Write it down—don’t react

Journal the emotion, then bring it to your therapist (not your attorney). Your attorney is your legal guide—not your emotional support system.

✅ 6) Choose ONE safe person

Avoid oversharing with people who escalate you (you know who you are, “Tina from the bar” 😅).

✅ 7) Use tools that reduce conflict

Consider structured communication support through a court-respected co-parenting app like OurFamilyWizard.

1. Don’t threaten your spouse (ever)
2. Don’t overshare with people who escalate you
3. Don’t send your attorney a midnight novel (it’s expensive and rarely helps your case)
4. Don’t treat one good meeting/email like it means the whole divorce will be easy
5. Don’t catastrophize one bad development into “I ruined my life”

1. OurFamilyWizard (co-parenting communication app)
2. Save 20%: ourfamilywizard.com/not suck 20 (as stated in the episode)

1. “Divorce doesn’t bring one emotion. It brings all of them.”
2. “The high isn’t the problem—expectations are.”
3. “Emotional neutrality is self-preservation.”
4. “The law operates on facts, not your feelings.”
5. “The goal isn’t to stop your emotions—it’s to stop letting your emotions drive decisions.”

This episode is for you if:

1. You’re newly separated or just starting the divorce process
2. You feel emotionally unrecognizable (high highs + low lows)
3. You’re scared you’re making the wrong decision because you feel unstable
4. You want practical tools to stay calm and protect your case
5. You’re co-parenting or worried about how divorce impacts your kids

This podcast is for educational and informational purposes and does not provide legal advice. Always consult a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction regarding your specific situation.

Find our playlists here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/podcast

Rate our podcast 5 stars here: www.ratethispodcast.com/notsuck

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

If you haven’t filed for divorce yet but you’re spiraling, crying, rage-texting, and panic Googling how to leave your spouse...this episode is your pre-divorce game plan.

Andrea walks you through the “invisible work” that protects you before you file: creating a private email, organizing finances, understanding monthly expenses, regulating emotions, interviewing attorneys strategically, protecting kids from adult stress, and avoiding common mistakes that can cost you money (and peace).

This is not about being sneaky—it’s about being smart.

1. What to do before you file for divorce
2. How to create a private email and start organizing information safely
3. The pre-divorce financial lists you need (accounts, debts, passwords, credit score)
4. Why tracking monthly expenses now saves you later (hello, financial affidavits)
5. How to stay emotionally neutral and avoid the “high-high / low-low” spiral
6. How to interview attorneys and choose the right “business partner”
7. What NOT to do before filing (spending changes, threats, escalating conflict)
8. How to protect your kids (routines, boundaries, therapy support)
9. Bonus: writing down your “why” and what you want on the other side

Do these before you file:

1. Create a new private email address (separate from anything your spouse can access).
2. Start a Google Doc/Sheet to track:
3. All known accounts (banking, retirement, investments, credit cards, loans)
4. Unknowns you need to identify (accounts you suspect exist, balances you don’t know)
5. Passwords/access issues
6. Pull your credit score and document it.
7. List all monthly expenses (mortgage/rent, utilities, insurance, subscriptions, kids’ expenses, activities, childcare).
8. Interview at least 3 attorneys before hiring—choose strategy, not vibes.
9. Keep household routines stable (especially if you have kids).
10. Don’t threaten, don’t escalate, and don’t make sudden spending changes.
11. Get a hobby/outlet (something healthy + consistent).
12. Consider lining up a therapist for your kids if you expect the process to hit them hard.
13. Write down your why: what you want, what you’re not getting, and your vision for the future.

1. “This is not being sneaky—this is being smart.”
2. “Divorce is a business. Marriage is a business. Being in love is not.”
3. “Don’t be like me. I left a lot of f*cking money on the table.”
4. “You’re not hiring a best friend. You’re hiring a business partner.”

1. Anyone thinking about divorce but not ready to file
2. Anyone feeling overwhelmed, panicked, or emotionally activated
3. Anyone worried about money, kids, or choosing the right attorney
4. Anyone who wants a practical, step-by-step pre-divorce plan

This podcast episode is for informational and educational purposes only and does not provide legal advice. Always consult an attorney in your jurisdiction for guidance on your specific situation.

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Find our playlists here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/podcast

Rate our podcast 5 stars here: www.ratethispodcast.com/notsuck

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Join our private community on Facebook right here

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

Support and survival tools for one of the hardest days of divorce.

“When the house is quiet, the feelings are loud.” If you’re facing Christmas (or any holiday) without your kids, this episode is your survival guide.

Andrea Rappaport and Morgan Stogsdill talk about one of the most painful parts of divorce: the first (or early) holidays when your children are with the other parent. The anxiety can start days in advance, and the empty-house silence can feel unbearable — but Morgan reminds listeners that this is usually a moment in time, not a sign that you made the wrong decision about divorce.

You’ll hear real, practical tools for getting through the day hour-by-hour (doggy paddling counts), what not to do when you’re spiraling, and why “effective support” matters. You’ll also get tips for keeping conversations with your kids positive, avoiding emotional landmines, and making a plan that helps you survive the holiday — without shame, stalking your ex, or numbing yourself into oblivion.

1. Why holidays without your kids after divorce can feel like a crisis moment
2. How to tell the difference between grief and a “divorce decision”
3. Why “two truths can coexist” (you can be doing the right thing and it can hurt)
4. The best coping strategies for surviving Christmas without your children
5. What not to do: social media spirals, isolating, stalking your ex, emotional decisions
6. Why moving your body helps your mind calm down (“an exhausted body is a calm mind”)
7. How to use community support (even anonymously) when you feel alone
8. How to talk to your kids without making them feel responsible for your emotions
9. Co-parenting communication tools (and why OurFamilyWizard helps when rules aren’t followed)
10. Morgan’s “Chad” story: how making a plan helped a parent survive the first Christmas alone
11. Why leaving the house is the #1 non-negotiable tool (even a drive-through counts)

Andrea says it best: no amount of self-care candles fixes the fact that your kids aren’t here. Missing your children doesn’t mean you’re failing. It means you’re hurting.

Morgan sees clients question everything during the holidays — but she rarely sees people truly halt divorce because of it. These feelings are real, but they’re usually temporary.

You don’t have to “thrive” today. You just have to get through it. Hour-by-hour is allowed.

Here’s your breakdown, straight from Morgan + Andrea:

1. Walk outside if you can
2. If it’s cold: use a short YouTube workout video
3. If you hate workouts: get in your car and go somewhere (Target counts)

1. Join the private community (anonymous if needed)
2. Post what you’re doing to lift your spirits
3. Ask for support or distractions if you’re struggling
4. Compliment a stranger — small moments matter

Clean. Organize. Junk drawer. Closet. Anything that creates:

1. distraction
2. accomplishment
3. a tiny sense of control in a messy season

Morning / midday / evening. Decide:

1. where you’ll go
2. what you’ll eat
3. what you’ll watch
4. what you’ll do when the feelings hit

Don’t guilt your kids or make them feel responsible for your sadness. Have a “safe” positive story ready before you call.

It’s a built-in time block, gets you out of the house, and gives your brain a break.

1. Don’t numb yourself into oblivion (alcohol, doom scrolling, dissociating)
2. Don’t isolate all day
3. Don’t stalk your ex or interrogate your kids
4. Don’t make big legal/emotional decisions today
5. Don’t shame yourself for feeling sad or relieved
6. If you’re spiraling: stay off social media

Morgan's picks:

NPR News Now (omg boring)

Big Deal

Andrea's picks:

Crime Junkie

Andrea's favorite YouTube workout channel-

https://www.youtube.com/@MadFit

Join our private community here: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/17bUX16Wvz/

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

Why the holidays amplify doubts. What to do instead of panicking.

If you're overwhelmed, exhausted, pretending you’re fine, or Googling “How to pretend I'm not miserable in my marriage and ruin Christmas?” this conversation is exactly what you need.

December hits differently when your marriage feels heavy. In this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce, Morgan and Andrea break down why the holidays can push you into emotional overdrive and why that does not automatically mean you need to file for divorce today. From understanding the difference between a crisis moment vs. a clarity moment, to learning the now-iconic Pantry Party Plan, this episode gives you practical strategies to stay grounded, calm, and emotionally safe during one of the most triggering months of the year.

Andrea and Morgan open the episode with a message so many listeners need to hear:

You’re going to be okay.

Holiday stress isn’t proof that your marriage suddenly collapsed — it’s proof that December is a pressure cooker.

Friends. Traditions. Money. Kids. Expectations. Fake joy.

Your nervous system is maxed out, and that’s normal.

A crisis moment feels like:

1. wanting to flee your house
2. hiding in the pantry
3. crying out of nowhere
4. fantasizing about driving away and not coming back
5. panic bubbling in your chest

These moments do NOT require divorce decisions.

A clarity moment feels like:

1. “Yep… this marriage still doesn’t feel right.”
2. annoyance, sadness, or distance
3. noticing repeating patterns
4. calm recognition of misalignment

Clarity = information

Crisis = not the time to act

This distinction alone saves listeners from major mistakes.

December will give you a moment where you need to step away — mentally or physically.

Andrea introduces the Pantry Party Plan, a simple, strategic grounding tool to stop panic from running the show.

Step 1: Set a timer.

1. 3 minutes → small wobble
2. 5–7 minutes → medium crisis
3. 10 minutes → major meltdown prevention

Step 2: Exhale first.

Panic makes it nearly impossible to breathe in.

So start by pushing out all your air, then allow the inhale.

Step 3: Add your mantra.

Pick something that makes you laugh, relax, or feel powerful.

Andrea’s?

“Bitches ain’t shit.”

Find one that works for YOU.

Morgan breaks down the legal + emotional side:

1. holiday traditions when you're unhappy
2. forced family time
3. pretending everything is fine
4. loneliness in a room full of people
5. constant “countdown” messaging
6. financial pressure

1. you feel like decisions MUST be made now
2. you assume you need to file before year-end
3. emotions wipe out logic

Reality:

Unless you are in a dangerous or urgent situation, you do NOT need to make major legal moves in December.

December creates urgency — emails scream “LAST DAY!” and everyone feels squeezed.

But Morgan and Andrea give the rule:

WAIT 24 HOURS before acting on heavy emotions.

Your clarity returns when your nervous system stabilizes.

Unlike many episodes, this is NOT when you:

1. list marital issues
2. write notes for your attorney
3. plan financial strategy
4. make decisions about filing

This is the month of survival, not productivity.

Your only job: protect your head and heart.

Andrea shares how crafting a thoughtful teacher gift became an unexpected source of joy when nothing else felt good.

For some people, creating something for someone else can momentarily relieve the emotional load.

For others?

Like Morgan?

It’s stress-inducing.

Pick the lane that helps YOU.

Avoid the emotional Hallmark specials.

Andrea recommends lighter options — like Nailed It — to give your brain a break from holiday perfection and family-togetherness fantasy scenes.

If you're feeling isolated, the private community offers:

1. anonymity
2. support from people who get it
3. guidance from Morgan and Andrea
4. a place to ask real questions

Plus: more tools on the website, including the Divorce Crash Course and other guides.

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

How to prepare, protect yourself, and move forward without rushing

This episode is especially helpful if you’re searching for:

1. How to prepare for divorce without filing
2. Emotional separation before divorce
3. How to survive the holidays before divorce
4. What is a silent divorce?
5. How to tell your spouse you want a divorce (but not yet)
6. Divorce timing strategy
7. How to protect kids during separation

If you’re quietly planning your next chapter, this one is for you.

In this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce, Morgan Stogsdill and Andrea Rappaport dive deep into the concept of the silent divorce: the unofficial, emotional separation that happens when one or both partners know the marriage is ending, but they're not ready to officially file yet.

If you're feeling emotionally checked out, unsure of timing, scared of disrupting the holidays, or stuck in a “limbo marriage,” this episode helps you understand what a silent divorce is, the signs you're in one, and most importantly : what to DO about it.

Andrea and Morgan break down two scenarios:

1️⃣ When both spouses know divorce is coming but are waiting.

2️⃣ When only one spouse knows, and the other has no idea.

You’ll hear practical guidance, emotional support, and legal strategy to help you prepare without panicking, protect your kids, and avoid major divorce mistakes.

Plus, you’ll hear hysterical QuickBooks chaos, psychic readings on Oak Street, and a glamorous side quest to the Waldorf Astoria. Classic HNTSAD energy.

How emotional withdrawal and parallel living become the early stage of divorce long before filing papers.

– Minimal communication

– Loss of intimacy

– Roommate vibes

– Emotional loneliness

– Avoidance of conflict

– No partnership energy

Do this:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Keep things predictable
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. Set temporary boundaries (separate bedrooms, shared spaces, routines)
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    
11. Treat this time as preparation, not limbo
12. 
    
13. 
    

Do this:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. Understand your secrecy is not deceit — it’s strategy
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. Confide in only ONE trusted person
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    
11. Start preparing emotionally, financially, and legally
12. 
    
13. 
    

Morgan explains why the holiday season is almost never the right moment for a divorce announcement — legally, strategically, and emotionally.

Andrea shares how to survive the “holiday performance pressure” without pretending everything is perfect.

Simple scripts, routines, and communication tips to help keep kids grounded and minimize emotional fallout.

Fear = confusion

Confidence = clarity

This episode shows you how to take the first steps safely, smartly, and privately.

“A silent divorce is not a selfish move — it is a strategic move.”

“You don’t have to file today to start preparing for tomorrow.”

“Secrecy isn’t deceitful — it’s careful.”

“A silent divorce is a temporary solution, not a long-term fix.”

“Preparation reduces panic.”

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Why strategy, not emotion, wins negotiations.

Emotions don’t win in divorce court — facts and strategy do. In this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce, divorce attorney Morgan Stogsdill and comedian-turned-divorce-advocate Andrea Rappaport walk you through how to negotiate your divorce like a pro using their THINK framework:

1. T – Take the emotion out of it
2. H – Have realistic non-negotiables
3. I – Identify their pain points
4. N – Negotiate from facts, not feelings
5. K – Keep your BATNA in mind (your best backup plan)

If the idea of mediation, settlement conferences, or sitting across from your ex makes you want to hide in a hole, this episode is your game plan. You’ll learn how to work with your lawyer instead of against them, what’s actually realistic to ask for, how to use what you know about your ex as legal leverage, and why clinging to your emotions can cost you big money, time, and sanity.

Whether you’re just starting your divorce, heading into mediation, or trying to wrap up a long, exhausting case, this episode will help you stay out of court if possible, save money, and make smarter decisions for you and your kids.

1. Why “facts win” in divorce
2. How emotions spiral, stories get twisted, and why judges and mediators care about documents, numbers, and timelines — not drama.
3. T = Take the emotion out of it
4. Andrea’s “Ziploc bag and freeze your feelings like a 2018 pot roast” strategy
5. How to notice when you’re triggered in mediation (hello, Brenda and Chad)
6. What to say to your lawyer when you’re about to lose it — and when to zip it and let them speak for you
7. H = Have realistic non-negotiables
8. The difference between must-haves and nice-to-haves
9. Why “I want 100% custody” usually isn’t realistic
10. How to decide which holidays, financial terms, or parenting provisions are truly non-negotiable
11. Morgan’s example of a client who refused to accept any end date on maintenance — and why that was realistic in her case
12. I = Identify their pain points
13. How to “play detective” and figure out what your ex really cares about (ego, money, reputation, time with kids, a specific property, etc.)
14. Morgan’s story of using a husband’s obsession with a particular property to get her client more money on the balance sheet
15. Why negotiation is less about what you want and more about what motivates them
16. N = Negotiate from facts, not feelings
17. Why you should write your facts in clear bullet points, not emotional paragraphs
18. How “friend of the family” promises and verbal side deals (hi, John 🙃) don’t count in court
19. The power of real numbers and real documents: appraisals, bank statements, incomes, and written offers
20. K = Keep your BATNA in mind
21. What BATNA actually means in divorce: Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement
22. How to think about your “backup plan” if mediation doesn’t work — i.e., what a judge is likely to do with your facts
23. Why knowing your BATNA calms panic, helps you avoid low-ball offers, and keeps you from spending more on legal fees than you stand to gain
24. When it’s actually smarter to stop fighting, accept a good-enough deal, and go home
25. What to really expect from mediation
26. Why the first day of mediation often feels “wasted” and why it’s actually valuable intel
27. How good lawyers use mediation to study your ex, learn their triggers, and refine strategy
28. Why mediation that “fails” still teaches your lawyer how to help you at the next stage
29. How to use your lawyer the right way
30. What to ask your attorney when you’re overwhelmed: “If this were your life, what would you do?”
31. How to talk honestly about risk, cost, and realistic outcomes
32. Why you should stop trying to be the lawyer and let your lawyer do their actual job

Emotions are valid, but they don’t belong at the negotiation table.

Work with your lawyer to define realistic non-negotiables based on the law, not just your fear or anger.

Use what you know about your ex’s insecurities and priorities as strategic leverage.

Facts, numbers, and written offers win in divorce — not stories, verbal promises, or assumptions.

Always know your BATNA (what likely happens in court) so you’re not negotiating from panic.

Mediation rarely feels “pretty,” but it’s almost always cheaper, faster, and less emotionally damaging than court.

You are not supposed to already know how to do this — that’s why you have a lawyer and your divorce besties, Andrea & Morgan.

We are truly engaged with Truly Engaging cards. It's THE BEST way to remain connected with your community. Use code: NOTSUCKTE to get 10% off your order and ask to have Alisiah help you!! www.trulyengaging.com

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck20

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Join the private communities!

The How Not to Suck at Divorce Community

The How Not to Suck at Life AFTER DIVORCE Community

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

Hard truths that can save you time, money, and sanity.

If you want the real truth about divorce, buckle up. In this episode, Andrea and Morgan deliver the unfiltered, uncomfortable, absolutely-necessary truths your lawyer wishes you understood…but might be too afraid to say directly.

From how the legal system really works to why your expectations are sabotaging your sanity, this episode is the wake-up call you need if you’re navigating divorce, co-parenting, or even just preparing for that dreaded Thanksgiving dinner with your very opinionated family.

This one is honest, hilarious, a little unhinged (hi Andrea), and packed with strategic guidance that will help you avoid major mistakes.

The legal system doesn’t care about fairness. It’s designed for equitable distribution, not emotional justice.

Morgan breaks down why the courts aren’t built to punish your ex — even when you deeply (and correctly) feel they deserve it.

Why your expectations are often unrealistic, what “the range” actually means in divorce outcomes, and how lowering your expectations protects your mental health and your wallet.

Andrea reminds listeners that different states = different standards. Don’t guess. Don’t Google. Ask your lawyer to explain what’s realistic where YOU live.

Your ex won’t suddenly transform into a better human mid-divorce. (Brenda does not become Glinda.) Focus on your responses, your regulation, and your strategy.

How to shut down intrusive family commentary (“That’s not fair!”) and exactly what to say at the holiday table when everyone wants details about your divorce.

Andrea shares her own emotional story about her first Thanksgiving without her kids, and how focusing on what she could control changed everything.

Use a communication app like OurFamilyWizard to protect yourself legally and emotionally — especially with the ToneMeter feature that stops you from sending something you’ll regret.

1. The legal system is not designed to make you feel better.
2. Your ex won’t change just because you’d like them to.
3. Your attorney isn’t your therapist.
4. Fairness is not a legal standard. Equitable is.
5. Focusing on your ex keeps you stuck.
6. You are responsible for asking your lawyer the right questions.
7. Your expectations need to be realistic, not emotional.

00:00 — Hard truth: nothing about divorce is “fair”

00:05 — Why the legal system will NOT give you justice or revenge

00:21 — Show intro

01:12 — Morgan’s chaotic morning + the freight elevator monkey situation

02:38 — Why a small client gift boosted the entire legal team

03:26 — Andrea’s shocking weekend text to Morgan

04:30 — Kim Kardashian’s “All’s Fair”: Andrea’s surprising review

05:36 — HARD TRUTH #1: Lower your expectations

08:43 — How to “bet on yourself” when everything feels unstable

10:08 — The client who saved millions by lowering expectations

10:58 — Best case vs worst case vs realistic outcomes

12:11 — HARD TRUTH #2: Nothing about this will feel fair

14:48 — What “equitable” actually means in divorce

17:02 — The danger of getting stuck in unfairness mindset

18:39 — How to handle family’s opinions during holiday gatherings

20:47 — HARD TRUTH #3: The system is not built for revenge

22:02 — HARD TRUTH #4: Stop focusing on your ex’s behavior

22:40 — Letting go of trying to “teach lessons”

24:39 — Why your ex won’t suddenly improve during divorce

25:50 — HARD TRUTH #5: Focus on YOU, not Brenda

27:17 — Why lawyers don’t tell you these things directly

28:49 — What to say at Thanksgiving to shut down nosy relatives

31:05 — Andrea’s raw story of her first kid-free Thanksgiving

33:22 — The “body shot off Dad” moment (you know it’s coming)

34:52 — Divorce is a marathon, not a sprint

35:26 — Resources, guides & community links

This episode is your permission to drop the guilt, stop white-knuckling the process, and start approaching your divorce with clarity, strategy, and self-compassion.

If you’re going through a divorce right now — especially a high-conflict one — this is the episode you can’t skip.

Rate, review, and share to help someone who needs it.

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck20

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

Making better decisions by understanding what really matters.

If you’re in the middle of a divorce and constantly asking yourself “WHY is this happening?”, this episode is about to save you money, misery, and a whole lot of emotional tailspinning.

This week, Andrea and Morgan dive deep into the question that can either move your divorce forward—or completely derail you: WHY.

When is asking why strategic?

And when is it a waste of attorney fees (or your sanity)?

To help break it all down, we’re joined by Cary J. Mogerman, one of the most respected divorce attorneys in Missouri. Cary brings decades of experience, a wise-professor vibe, and a no-nonsense approach to helping clients understand the process clearly, calmly, and strategically.

Cary J. Mogerman is one of the most highly regarded divorce lawyers in Missouri and wellknown to other top family law attorneys throughout the United States. He is a Fellow of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and in 2022, served as President of the national organization. He is a Diplomate of the American College of Family Trial Lawyers, an invitation-only assemblage limited to 100 members throughout the United States; Cary is a member of its executive committee. He is a Fellow of the International Academy of Family Lawyers.

https://carmodymacdonald.com/people/cary-j-mogerman/

In this conversation, you’ll learn:

1. Why “Why is this happening to me?” is a therapist question—not a lawyer question
2. How to ask WHY in a way that strengthens your strategy, saves money, and reveals leverage
3. Why understanding your spouse’s emotional triggers can completely shift mediation
4. The one communication mistake clients make that drives lawyers insane
5. When your lawyer should break things down in plain language
6. Why slowing down your responses (yes, YOU) will prevent disaster
7. How to stop burning money on the wrong kind of questions
8. Why the legal process feels slow, confusing, and unfair—and what to do with that
9. How to advocate for yourself without apologizing

PLUS: Andrea reveals a HUGE co-parenting milestone (Shabbat dinner with the ex… yes, seriously), and Morgan talks through why listeners were so triggered by last week’s episode—and what that means for your own healing.

This is the episode you NEED if you’re negotiating, mediating, litigating, co-parenting, or just trying to get through the day without rage-texting your ex or panic-emailing your lawyer.

“Why is this happening?”

“Why is he acting like this?”

“Why is she being crazy?”

These are human questions—but not legal ones.

They belong in therapy, not in your billable hours.

Why are we filing this motion?

Why is this our mediation plan?

Why is my ex reacting this strongly to ONE issue?

These help your attorney build a smarter, more effective case.

Cary breaks down why attorneys NEED to simplify their communication—and why you should never feel embarrassed asking:

“Can you explain that in normal-person English?”

You know your spouse better than anyone.

Your insights help your attorney negotiate smarter and faster.

You’re not being chased by a bear.

Slow down. Breathe. Don’t respond immediately.

You can literally save thousands of dollars by pausing.

If you use your attorney to process grief, fear, or trauma—you’ll pay for it.

A therapist handles feelings.

A lawyer handles logistics and strategy.

Understanding WHY your ex digs their heels in reveals:

1. leverage
2. pressure points
3. opportunities for compromise

It is unfair.

But your lawyer can’t change it.

Save your dollars for actual strategy.

00:00 — Cary opens up about the problem with legal language

00:09 — Morgan: never feel bad asking “why”

00:19 — How WHY can transform mediation

00:46 — Show intro

01:22 — Connecting instead of isolating during divorce

01:37 — Truly Engaging partnership

02:19 — Holiday-card humor + promo code

02:26 — Being proactive vs reactive in divorce

02:44 — Why communication apps matter (Our Family Wizard plug)

03:19 — Andrea drops a HUGE co-parenting surprise

05:02 — The Shabbat dinner miracle (yes, really)

06:33 — Listener backlash from last week

07:40 — Nervous system regulation in co-parenting

08:53 — Introducing guest attorney Cary Mogerman

10:16 — Why blindsided spouses struggle with “why”

12:04 — When WHY keeps clients stuck

13:26 — The role of therapy vs legal strategy

14:44 — The cost of asking the wrong WHY

15:30 — When WHY is your best tool

17:02 — How WHY reveals leverage in mediation

17:54 — Plain language: the communication clients deserve

19:48 — Don't feel bad asking your lawyer to explain

21:22 — Email vs call: when & how to communicate

22:18 — How to prep for a paid call with your attorney

23:41 — Using WHY strategically in litigation & mediation

24:33 — When your WHY belongs in therapy

25:16 — Why divorcing people need communication guides

26:26 — Knowing your spouse’s triggers = negotiation power

27:25 — Why lawyers need your full story

28:41 — Real-life example: using money triggers in negotiation

31:34 — Why you don’t need to make immediate decisions

32:21 — Emotional reactivity and fight-or-flight

33:52 — Why your brain panics during divorce

35:14 — The WHY questions that waste money

35:45 — Why fairness doesn’t matter in court

37:36 — Action steps: when to ask WHY & when not to

38:47 — Cary’s closing wisdom

39:39 — How to know when to get curious vs when to let go

40:59 — Resources to help you save money & stress

41:28 — Why divorce is a marathon, not a sprint

42:02 — Final reassurance: you’ve got this (and we’ve got you)

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

We are truly engaged with Truly Engaging cards. It's THE BEST way to remain connected with your community. Use code: NOTSUCKTE to get 10% off your order and ask to have Alisiah help you!! www.trulyengaging.com

Join the private communities!

The How Not to Suck at Divorce Community

The How Not to Suck at Life AFTER DIVORCE Community

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck20

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago

Mentioned in this episode:

Natural Cyles

When your body feels unpredictable, your decisions shouldn’t have to be. Get insight and clarity with NC° Perimenopause. Visit Naturalcycles.app/divorce to learn more and save on a subscription

Natural Cycles

How one shift can reduce conflict and protect your kids.

If the idea of “healthy co-parenting” makes you want to throw your phone, this episode is for you. Comedian Andrea Rappaport and powerhouse family law attorney Morgan Stogsdill sit down with co-parenting expert and bestselling author Jon Bassford, JD, MBA, CAE, whose real-life story of turning a hostile divorce into a functional, daily-communication co-parenting dynamic will shock you—in the best way.

Jon's new book, The Co-Parenting Secret: It's Not About You, doesn't sugarcoat the difficulty or pretend everyone can be friends. Instead, it offers a revolutionary reframe: stop thinking about "my time" or "their time" and start thinking about your child's life. It challenges the toxic win/lose mindset and offers a new model: collaborative parenting focused on emotional safety, communication, and showing up for your kid every time.

His message resonates with divorced, separated, dating-but-split, or any parents navigating two-home situations, because it's not about having a friendly ex or following a perfect plan. It's about making intentional choices that prioritize your kids above your own convenience, preferences, or pride.

Jon is also a TEDx speaker, CEO of Lateral Solutions, and brings 20+ years of executive leadership to his work but this book isn't about applying business frameworks to family life. It's about the messy, honest journey of getting co-parenting right after getting it wrong.

Jon didn’t start with unicorns and rainbows. There was resentment, trash-talking, incompatible living… the whole messy thing. But he learned the intentional steps that transform co-parenting from a battleground into actual teamwork. In this episode, we dig into what co-parenting looks like when it’s real, what to do when your ex refuses to cooperate, and why saying “Of course” instead of “Fine” could change literally everything.

Whether you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, parallel-parenting with someone who refuses to meet you halfway, or just trying to not lose your mind over a simple schedule swap, you’ll walk away with mindset shifts, scripts, action steps, and legal strategy you can use TODAY.

Jon and his ex did not get along at first. There was hostility, miscommunication, and resentment — just like what most people experience. Progress happens in baby steps, not giant leaps.

Your instinct is to say “no.” That’s human. But dropping your guard and choosing calm over chaos immediately changes your internal state. Less spiraling, less anger, less anxiety.

Morgan breaks down how tools like Our Family Wizard create evidence showing you are the reasonable parent. If a judge ever needs to get involved, this matters A LOT.

Jon explains how resentment destroys your peace more than it punishes your ex. Letting go isn’t excusing behavior — it’s freeing yourself.

Co-parenting gets easier when you know why you’re doing it: stability for your child, emotional peace for yourself, and a healthier long-term dynamic.

00:00 — Why “our natural reaction is to say no”

00:17 — Morgan explains the legal strategy behind saying “yes”

00:31 — What saying “of course” does for you

00:57 — Andrea on isolation during divorce

01:12 — Why connecting with community matters

01:27 — Truly Engaging partnership + holiday card conversation

02:15 — Morgan’s hilarious mic apology

03:06 — “Morgan Scorsese” (thanks, Steve)

03:40 — Why co-parenting can feel impossible

04:14 — Introducing guest Jon Bassford

04:53 — Jon’s unconventional upbringing + what didn’t work

05:39 — The truth: it wasn’t always peaceful

07:10 — How his childhood shaped his co-parenting philosophy

08:30 — Why the “bad dad schedule” is dying

10:22 — What co-parenting actually looks like in real life

11:05 — The messy middle: trash-talking, resentment, counseling

14:04 — How Jon began putting his son first

15:54 — Why outside opinions can derail progress

17:14 — What to do if your ex won’t cooperate

17:55 — The power of one “yes”

20:01 — Co-parenting with a narcissist, abuser, or difficult ex

20:55 — Using Our Family Wizard strategically

22:20 — What saying “of course” does to your nervous system

23:46 — Andrea on emotional regulation + your brain under threat

24:35 — Why counting overnights ruins everything

27:56 — Jon’s 3 action steps

30:01 — What “letting go” actually means

31:06 — The ghosts of past, present & future

32:38 — Jon’s book: The Co-Parenting Secret

34:55 — Baby steps: the real way co-parenting improves

35:40 — What everyone’s kids are eating (Lunchables, cheeseburgers, Walmart nuggets, god help us)

38:02 — The 6-7 meme takes over Halloween

38:48 — Closing thoughts + encouragement

40:52 — How to join the community + resources

41:09 — Final reminder: “You’ve got this… and we’ve got you.”

✨ Jon Bassford’s Book — The Co-Parenting Secret: It’s Not About You

https://a.co/d/69WVUaH

We are truly engaged with Truly Engaging cards. It's THE BEST way to remain connected with your community. Use code: NOTSUCKTE to get 10% off your order and ask to have Alisiah help you!! www.trulyengaging.com

✨ Andrea’s Famous Walmart Chicken Nuggets

Get them here!

Join the private communities!

The How Not to Suck at Divorce Community

The How Not to Suck at Life AFTER DIVORCE Community

Our Divorce Crash Course was designed to hold your hand through the process and help you avoid major and expensive mistakes. Learn more here: https://www.hownottosuckatdivorce.com/divorce-crash-course

Our Family Wizard is another fantasitc resource for those who need help navigating the "fun" world of coparenting. Head to this landing page to see how we work closely with them to support our listeners! http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/notsuck

Friends, slide into our dms, we love love love hearing from you. We are always here to listen and help in any way we can. You've got this and we've got you.

Instagram: @hownotosuckatdivorce

Follow Andrea: @theandrearappaport

Follow Morgan: @divorceattorneychicago