Psychologists Off the Clock

When was the last time you sparked up a conversation with a stranger and surprised yourself with how good it felt? 

Behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley, author of A Little More Social, returns to the podcast to discuss with Michael why we systematically underestimate how positively strangers respond, how connection supports happiness, health, and longevity, and the key mechanisms behind our social pessimism (misjudging warmth vs. competence, overlooking reciprocity, and self-fulfilling avoidance). 

Nicholas shares research on how quickly people update after a conversation and how fast those gains can fade, plus practical “easy choice” experiments like asking someone to take your photo or simply asking, “Can you tell me your story?” 

Plus, in a special post-interview discussion, listener-turned-friend of Michael’s, therapist Dr. Jennifer Kauder, joins Michael to reflect on voice vs. text, comfort-zone challenges, and why real-time connection changes everything.

Listen and Learn: 

• The surprising benefits of connecting with people you don't know, and why our minds trick us into fearing these interactions that can lengthen and enrich our lives
• Psychological traps that make us overly pessimistic about reaching out to others, and why we miss out on deeper, happier connections due to misplaced expectations 
• Research on why trying to push past social awkwardness just once isn't enough, and why our brains quickly forget positive interactions 
• Why our confidence drops right before we approach someone new, the psychology behind why starting a conversation is much easier than anticipating it, and how small mindsets can instantly dissolve social anxiety 
• A simple, foolproof question that skips past awkward small talk, ignites genuine curiosity, and uncovers the fascinating, hidden stories

Resources: 

• A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593319543 
• Nicholas’ Website: https://www.nicholasepley.com/
• Nicholas Epley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-epley/  
• Michael's Confidence Course: https://herold.coach/course
• Rejection Proof by Jia Jiang: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780804141383 

About Nicholas Epley

Nicholas Epley is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research, at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition—how thinking people think about other thinking people—to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and happiness course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life. His research has appeared in more than two dozen empirical journals, been featured by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, CNN, Wired, and National Public Radio, among many others, and has been funded by the National Science Foundation and the Templeton Foundation. He has been awarded the 2008 Theoretical Innovation Award from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the 2011 Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution to Psychology from the American Psychological Association, the 2015 Book Prize for the Promotion of Social and Personality Science, and the 2018 Career Trajectory Award from the Society for Experimental Social Psychology. Epley was named a “professor to watch” by the Financial Times, one of the “World’s Best 40 under 40 Business School Professors” by Poets and Quants, and one of the 100 Most Influential in Business Ethics in 2015 by Ethisphere. He is the author of Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want. 

His new book, A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection, was published in May! (Our UK listeners will find the book titled Hello: The Unexpected Power of Choosing To Connect)

Related Episodes

• 422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
• 454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold
• 313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brian Thompson
• 393. Supercommunicators with Charles Duhigg
• 360. The Laws of Connection with David Robson

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Parenting often feels like a high-stakes guessing game played in the middle of a meltdown or a deafening teenage silence.

Clinical psychologist and bestselling author Lindsay C. Gibson returns to Psychologist Off the Clock to discuss her new book, "How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child," and the core mindsets that build emotional maturity across development. 

You’ll hear how emotionally immature parenting shows up, why self-reflection protects against repeating harmful patterns, how mistakes and repair strengthen trust, and what it looks like to treat kids as fully human with rich inner worlds, even when they don’t say much or you don’t understand them. 

Listen for a relational, autonomy-supportive approach that can improve parenting and adult relationships alike. 

Listen and Learn:

• How the toddler-like self-centeredness of emotionally immature parents forces their adult children to constantly manage everyone else's happiness at the absolute cost of their own identity and peace
• Why breaking the cycle of childhood trauma doesn't require being a perfect parent, but rather practicing self-awareness and honoring your child's deeply sensitive
• Why parenting is a relational enterprise rather than a production line, where meaningful connection isn't measured by long-winded conversations, but by showing genuine curiosity and active engagement 
• Shifting from "carpentry-style" parenting that forces a narrow path to "gardening-style" parenting that nourishes the child's true, unique self 
• Why true parenting connection doesn't require you to perfectly understand your child at all times, but rather to create a safe, curious environment where they feel inherently understandable 

Resources:

• How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child by Lindsay Gibson https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593735367 
• Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Children by Lindsay Gibson https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781626251700
• Lidnsey’s Website: https://www.lindsaycgibson.com/
• How to Avoid Estrangement (a Q&A with Lindsay for Yael’s newsletter)
• Stories that Connect (about sharing books, Yael’s newsletter post inspired by Lindsay Gibson)
• Video from Ed Tronick’s research on the “still face experiment”
• Range by David Epstein https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780735214507 

About Lindsay Gibson

Lindsay Gibson, PsyD, is a clinical psychologist specializing in emotional maturity and its ripple effects across the lifespan. Her book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents became a #1 bestseller and has helped countless readers make sense of their childhoods — and themselves. Her newest book, How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child, takes that work upstream, exploring what it actually looks like to raise kids who are emotionally grounded and self-aware. With a background that spans art, literature, and clinical psychology, Lindsay brings a rare combination of intellectual curiosity and practical wisdom to her work. She practices in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and has a habit of mailing Carl Rogers books to people she likes — which is how she became one of Yael's favorite humans.

Related Episodes:

• 262. Relationships with Emotionally Immature People with lindsay Gibson
• 303. Both/And Thinking with Marianne Lewis

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Modern life has become a gauntlet of "dangerous weather" that frequently strips away our most basic human needs.

In this episode, Emily speaks with author and strategist Stephanie Malia Kraus about her book, How We Thrive, and the essential practice of "rehumaning." 

Stephanie breaks down the four systemic forces, from hustle culture to addictive tech, that undermine our well-being and offers a roadmap for reclaiming play, wonder, and rest. 

The discussion bridges the gap between ancient Hawaiian wayfinding and modern neuroscience, highlighting the critical importance of restorative "downstates" and simple regulation tools for navigating an increasingly overstimulated world.

Listen and Learn:

• How the Hawaiian tradition of Wayfinding teaches us to navigate a world that has "shifted on its axis" by anchoring into timeless human essentials, and influenced Stephanie's book
• Why the friction you feel in parenting isn't a personal failure, but a biological mismatch between our human nature and modern society 
• Recognizing the four universal forces: Overtapped, Overworked, Overstimulated, and Overwrought, and understanding why feeling depleted isn't a personal failure, but a natural response to the "stormy" conditions of modern living 
• Why our modern "social jet lag", the mismatch between our hectic schedules and our biological needs, is fueling a youth mental health crisis, and how reclaiming "human essentials" like sleep, play, and internal attunement can act as a biological superpower for both parents and teens 
• How the practices of celebrating small wins, contributing to others, and nurturing an inborn sense of belief act as biological shields that restore our dignity and spark a protective sense of hope even in the most difficult seasons of life 
• How "lemon squeezes", a simple technique of tensing and releasing your muscles for 20 seconds, uses the science of progressive muscle relaxation to signal safety to your nervous system and bring your body back into balance in less than a minute 

Resources:

• How We Thrive: Caring for Kids and Ourselves in a Changing World https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781071957561 
• https://rehumaningourlives.substack.com/
• https://www.rehumaning.com/
• Connect with Stephanie on Social Media: 
• https://www.youtube.com/@StephanieMaliaKrauss
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniemaliakrauss/
• https://www.instagram.com/stephaniemaliakrauss/ 

About Stephanie Malia Krauss

Stephanie Malia Krauss is an author, speaker, and strategist focused on rehumaning childhood and our lives. Her newest book, How We Thrive, explores the urgent need to protect human essentials—like sleep, play, and connection—that modern life diminishes or denies. An educator and social worker who has worked from the classroom to Congress, Stephanie now advises states, districts, and national organizations on holistic approaches to preparing and caring for kids. Stephanie is the bestselling author of Whole Child, Whole Life: 10 Ways to Help Kids Live, Learn, and Thrive and Making It: What Today’s Kids Need for Tomorrow’s World. Her work has been featured by Newsweek, PBS NewsHour, Parents, and more.

Related Episodes:

• 455. The New Blueprint for Success with Ana Homayoun
• 444. Mattering with Jennifer Wallace
• 433. Rethinking Screens and Video Games with Ash Brandin
• 424. Modern Anxiety with Noelle McWard Aquino
• 414. The Disengaged Teen with Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop
• 409. Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times with Melinda Wenner Moyer
• 324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace

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We’ve been taught that pain always means something is broken, but it’s often just a "stuck" danger signal in the brain. 

To show us how to turn that signal off, Jill Stoddard talks with Alan Gordon, the founder of the Pain Psychology Center and author of The Way Out. Drawing on his own recovery from chronic pain, Alan explains how fear and conditioning keep us hurting even after we've healed.

Through fascinating stories like the "construction worker" case and MRI surprise, they dive into the science of neuroplastic pain and the tools you can use to retrain your nervous system, build stress tolerance, and finally feel safe in your own body again.

Listen and Learn:

• Alan’s personal frustration with navigating a broken medical system and how that led to the discovery of a groundbreaking mind-body approach that offers lasting relief for chronic pain
• How your brain can misinterpret emotional stress or past memories as physical danger to create real, persistent pain even after an injury has fully healed 
• The specific clues that can reveal whether your chronic physical pain is actually coming from your brain, and how to break the cycle of fear that keeps symptoms alive 
• The reason why traditional recovery methods can fail when we ignore our internal state, and how "backward engineering" your physical tension can signal to your brain that the danger has passed 
• Why the clinical evolution of Pain Reprocessing Therapy shifted from exploring unconscious emotions to targeting the brain's internal danger signals, and how modern neuroscience identifies the hidden driver keeping your physical symptoms alive 
• Why somatic tracking outperforms traditional mindfulness 

Resources:

• The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593086858 
• Pain Psychology Center Website: https://painpsychologycenter.com/
• Follow the Pain Psychology Center on Social Media: 
• https://instagram.com/thepainpsychologycenter
• https://www.facebook.com/painpsychologycenter
• Tell Me About Your Pain - Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tell-me-about-your-pain/id1503847664  
• The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pain-reprocessing-therapy-podcast/id1785564399 
• TEDxAdelaide - Lorimer Moseley - Why Things Hurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwd-wLdIHjs

About Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon is the creator of Pain Reprocessing Therapy (PRT) and founder of the Pain Psychology Center. He developed PRT through years of clinical practice and research, and its efficacy has been validated in randomized controlled trials published in JAMA Psychiatry. He is the author of The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain.

Related Episodes:

• 39. Chronic Pain with Adrianne Sloan
• 75. Mindful Self-Compassion with Christopher Germer
• 114. Way of Effortless Mindfulness with Loch Kelly
• 155. Mindfulness and Recovery with Rebecca Williams
• 177. Mind-Body Practices for Stress and Overwhelm with Rebekkah LaDyne
• 201. Fierce Compassion with Kristin Neff
• 336. Mindfulness and Living Expansively with Sharon Salzberg
• 364. The Brain-Gut Connection with Megan Riehl

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What if success isn’t about grinding toward big goals but about following curiosity through small, imperfect experiments that lead somewhere better?

On Psychologist Off the Clock, award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur Anne-Laure Le Cunff, founder of Nest Labs and author of Tiny Experiments, shares how a health scare while working at Google helped her shift from rigid, linear goals to an experimental mindset rooted in curiosity. 

You’ll hear about common “cognitive scripts” (the sequel, crowd pleaser, and epic scripts), how to design tiny experiments to test beliefs without framing outcomes as failure, and how to reframe success as learning. 

The conversation also covers “surface area for luck,” the difference between legacy and generativity, and ends with reflections on goals, values, and meaningful community support.

Listen and Learn: 

• How Anne-Laure’s career was fueled by imposter syndrome, and led to a life-threatening wake-up call that pushed her to rethink priorities and embrace a more experimental, balanced path 
• Why rigid, linear goals only work when everything is certain, and why it’s more effective to replace them with curiosity and experimentation 
• Why many of your goals come from hidden “cognitive scripts,” and by questioning them, you can move from autopilot to intentional choices
• Doing “tiny experiments” and observing results without judgment before deciding what to adjust or repeat 
• Why instead of treating outcomes as success or failure, you should approach situations like small experiments, where everything that happens, especially mistakes, is just useful data for learning and adjusting 
• The “Surface area for luck” and why the more you try new things, meet people, and put yourself in different situations, the more you increase the chances of unexpected good opportunities happening in your life 
• Focusing on making a real-time, meaningful impact on people and communities around us through everyday acts of care and mutual support

Resources: 

• Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593715130
• Anne-Laure’s Website: https://anne-laure.net/
• Tiny Experiments: https://tinyexperiments.org/  
• Connect with Anne-Laure on Instagram https://instagram.com/neuranne 
• Ness Labs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ness_labs/?hl=en 
• Ness Labs X: https://x.com/ness_labs 
• Ness Labs Website: https://nesslabs.com/ 
• Michael’s Confidence Course: Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead http://herold.coach/course 

About Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Anne-Laure Le Cunff is an award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur. She is the founder of Ness Labs, where her weekly newsletter is read by more than 100,000 curious minds. Her research at King’s College London focuses on the psychology and neuroscience of lifelong learning, curiosity, and adaptability. Her book, Tiny Experiments, is a transformative guide for living a more experimental life, turning uncertainty into curiosity, and carving a path of self-discovery. Previously, she worked at Google as an executive on digital health projects. Her work has been featured in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Financial Times, WIRED, and more. 

Related Episodes:

• 349. The Hunger Habit with Judson Brewer
• 351. You Only Die Once with Jodi Wellman
• 454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold

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Being absolutely sure you’re right should settle an argument, but somehow, it often does the opposite. Instead, things escalate, tensions rise, and before you know it, the conflict has taken on a life of its own. 

For this episode, Yael welcomes New York Times bestselling author, trained mediator, and Good Conflict co-founder Amanda Ripley to unpack her book  High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped, and How We Get Out, and the difference between “good conflict” that strengthens us and “high conflict” that feeds on contempt, disgust, and rigid us-versus-them thinking. 

You’ll hear why high conflict makes us more error-prone while feeling more righteous, how group belonging and media incentives can keep the cycle going, and practical ways to interrupt the pattern like Gary Freeman’s three-question pause before speaking. 

Listen to learn how to stay in the fight without losing nuance, curiosity, or yourself.

Listen and Learn:

• The distinction between healthy conflict that helps you grow and the kind that quietly turns destructive in ways you may not notice 
• Why conflicts can quietly take over our thinking, shifting us into an us-versus-them mindset 
• Why do we get pulled into conflicts that drain us even when we know the cost, and what keeps us hooked?
• How can even people deeply engaged with information find themselves pulling away from conflict, and what does that reveal about the hidden dynamics of high conflict
• How you can recognize the early signs of high conflict and shift toward more productive, healthier conversations before things escalate

Resources: 

• High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped, and How We Get Out: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781982128579 
• Amanda’s Website: https://www.amandaripley.com/
• Good Conflict Website: https://www.thegoodconflict.com
• Connect with Amanda on Social Media: 
• https://www.facebook.com/amanda.ripley.35/
• https://www.instagram.com/ripleywriter/
• Amada’s Substack: https://amandaripley.substack.com/ 
• Amanda’s article about high-conflict journalism, I stopped reading the news. Is the problem me–or the product?
• Yael’s Substack post about how journalists quickly build connection
• Builders Movement: an Instagram feed and website that offers “inspiration, tools, and ways to take action to rise above us vs. them and solve our toughest problems together.”

About Amanda Ripley: 

Amanda Ripley is a New York Times bestselling author, magazine journalist, and co-founder of Good Conflict, a media and training company helping people reimagine how we fight. She has written three award-winning nonfiction books — The Unthinkable, The Smartest Kids in the World, and High Conflict — each following people through transformations to uncover what the rest of us can learn. Her most recent book, High Conflict, chronicles how good conflict metastasizes into something that consumes everything in its path — and, crucially, how people find their way out. A trained mediator herself, Amanda's work reveals that escape from high conflict isn't about being nicer; it's about learning to genuinely comprehend what you still disagree with. Her writing has appeared in the Atlantic, the Washington Post, and Politico Magazine, among others.

Related Episodes:

• 234. The Power of Us with Dominic Packer
• 371. Uniting Toward a Better Future with Diana McLain Smith
• 392. Outraged with Kurt Gray
• 408. Connecting Like a Hostage Negotiator with Gary Noesner
• 452. How to Disagree Better with Julia Minson

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If your teen is getting caught in cycles of comparison, burnout, or avoidance while trying to “do enough” for college, this conversation offers a different perspective.

Emily talks with Ana Homayoun about her book Erasing the Finish Line and what really matters beyond grades, test scores, and prestige.

They walk you through unhealthy patterns in college admissions culture, how technology amplifies anxiety, and why most institutions actually accept the majority of applicants. Their conversation also reveals how long-term success depends far more on relationships and meaningful engagement than on brand-name schools.

Join Emily and Ana for practical strategies to help your teens build executive functioning systems, shift from time management to energy management, strengthen social capital through supporters and clarifiers, and rethink grind culture, including the role of youth sports.

Listen and Learn: 

• Focusing less on comparison and more on building your own strengths and systems for shaping both college outcomes and the kind of work you end up loving later
• How parents’ own fears and need for control shape the college process can undermine a student’s fit and well-being, and what it takes to step back so they can truly thrive
• How technology has reshaped college admissions in ways that make independent research, real-world exploration, and staying open-minded more important than ever for finding the right fit
• Why the most “competitive” colleges may feel that way by design, and how choosing the right environment and relationships over prestige can shape your future more than you expect
• Focusing on executive functioning skills to shape your teen’s long-term success in ways grades alone never reveal
• Making small shifts in structure, mindset, and environment to unlock a child’s ability to plan, adapt, and thrive without pressure or perfection
• How having friendships across different age groups quietly builds confidence, perspective, and real connection in ways most students do not expect
• Sharing and building social capital in small, everyday ways to quietly shape opportunities for teens and create unexpected outcomes
• Giving kids real choices, a safe space to fail, and multiple places to belong to builds the confidence, motivation, and life skills they carry into adulthood
• How shifting from managing time to managing your energy transforms focus, behavior, and motivation

Resources: 

• Erasing the Finish Line: The New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades and College Admission https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780306830693 
• That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780399535598 
• Ana’s Website: https://anahomayoun.com/ 
• Connect with Ana on Social Media: 
• https://instagram.com/anahomayoun
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-homayoun-4783863/) 

About Ana Homayoun: 

ANA HOMAYOUN is the founder of Silicon Valley–based Green Ivy Educational Consulting and executive director of Luminaria Learning Solutions, which develops student programs focused on executive functioning and well-being. She is also the author of That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week, The Myth of the Perfect Girl, and Social Media Wellness. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Fast Company, and NPR and on Good Morning America and NBC News. Learn more about her work at www.anahomayoun.com. Her most recent book, Erasing the Finish Line, comes out in paperback on June 9th with the updated title, Getting in Is Not Enough: The New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades, Test Scores, and College Admission. 

Related Episodes:

• 324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace
• 414. The Disengaged Teen with Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson
• 369. The Good News About Adolescence with Ellen Galinsky
• 332. Middle School Superpowers with Phyllis Fagell
• 272. Middle School Matters with Phyllis Fagell

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If you’ve ever avoided saying yes to something meaningful because you were waiting to feel less anxious or more “ready,” this episode is for you.

Cohosts Yael and Michael Herold sit down for a chat about his confidence-building online course and the misconceptions that keep people stuck, especially the idea that motivation and the “right mindset” must come first. 

You’ll hear how acceptance and commitment therapy reframes anxiety as a passenger you can bring along while you drive toward your values, why rigid social scripts don’t work, and how low-stakes “comfort zone challenges” (like lying down in public) help you practice courage, defuse unhelpful thoughts, and tolerate discomfort without real-world consequences.

Join Michael and Yael for lots of practical insight, humor, and a preview of tools that can help you step into the life you want.

Listen and Learn: 

• Why confidence isn’t built by fixing your mindset first, but by taking action on what matters
• Why you can’t learn confidence from scripts or perfect phrases, and confidence only develops through practice, not preparation
• How to step outside your comfort zone by practicing small, low-stakes challenges that reveal how thoughts and emotions create avoidance, and how to disarm them so you can act on what matters instead of defaulting to fear-based reactions
• Why worrying about annoying others can hold you back from confidence, and learning confidence means acting respectfully on what matters, even when that fear is present
• Comfort-zone challenges to expand confidence and even meaningfully change the direction of your life
• Building confidence through practical, real-world exercises with Michael’s course

Resources: 

• Michael’s Course: herold.coach/course

• Lilly and the Wildflowers:
• www.instagram.com/lilyandthewildflowers
• www.lilyandthewildflowers.com

About Michael Herold

Michael (he/him) is a confidence trainer and social skills coach, based in Vienna, Austria.  He’s helping his clients overcome their social anxiety through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and fun exposure exercises. (Though the jury is still out on whether they’re mostly fun for him). He is also a certified therapeutic game master, utilizing the Dungeons&Dragons tabletop roleplaying game to train communication, assertiveness, and teamwork with young adults. Or actually, anyone ready to roll some dice and battle goblins in a supportive group where players want to level up (pun!) their social skills. Michael is the head coach of the L.A. based company The Art of Charm, running their confidence-building program “Unstoppable” as well as workshops on small talk, storytelling, vulnerability, and more. He is the scientific advisor and co-producer of their large podcast with more than 250 million downloads. As a member of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS), Michael is the current President of the ACT Coaching Special Interest Group with nearly 1,000 coaches worldwide, and the co-founder of the ACT in Austria Affiliate of ACBS, a nationwide meetup for ACT practitioners in Austria. He’s a public speaker who has spoken at TEDx, in front of members of parliament, universities, and once in a cinema full of 500 kids high on sugary popcorn. In a previous life, he was a character animator working on award-winning movies and TV shows such as “The Penguins of Madagascar” and “Kung Fu Panda”. That was before he realized that helping people live a meaningful life is much more rewarding than working in the film business – even though the long nights in the studio allowed him to brew his own beer in the office closet, an activity he highly recommends. Michael grew up with five foster kids who were all taken out of abusive families. His foster sisters showed him how much positive change is possible in a person if they have the love and support they need.

Related Episodes

• 173. Confidence, Self-Doubt, and Overcoming Limitations with Michael Herold
• 313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brian Thompson
• 195. ACT Daily with Diana Hill and Debbie Sorensen

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Guilt can feel uncomfortable and easy to push away, but it is one of those emotions that actually serves an important purpose in our lives.

For this episode, Debbie sits down with developmental psychologist Chris Moore, author of The Power of Guilt, to unpack what guilt really is and why it plays such an important role in our lives and relationships. Informed by both research and personal experience, Chris offers a perspective that might completely change how you see this emotion.

You’ll come away with an understanding of where guilt comes from, how it shows up in everyday life, from childhood to parenting to relationships, and why some people feel it more than others. 

They also get into topics like apology, forgiveness, and how guilt can actually help us repair and strengthen connections. 

Listen and Learn: 

• How a single life-altering mistake shaped how Chris understands guilt, responsibility, and forgiveness
• How guilt quietly reveals the hidden ways our most important relationships shape what we feel and why we’re driven to repair something we might not fully understand yet
• Does the guilt you feel over small things like unfinished chores reveal deeper, hidden influences from the relationships that shaped your internal rules and standards?
• Why feelings like guilt begin much earlier than we assume and later grow into something far more complex and central to relationships
• Why some people feel guilt far more intensely than others, and how personality, relationships, and even gender differences quietly shape that experience in ways you might not expect
• Why feeling like you are never doing enough as a parent might actually come from the very nature of caring for someone vulnerable, and what that reveals about guilt being more automatic than accurate
• How guilt can quietly become a tool of control when forgiveness is withheld
• How ideas like restorative justice and even collective guilt reshape the way we understand responsibility and emotional repair in society
• Why guilt, though uncomfortable, can actually serve as a powerful internal signal that helps us recognize when a valued relationship may need attention and guide us toward repairing and strengthening it

Resources:

• The Power of Guilt: Why We Feel It and Its Surprising Ability to Heal

https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781637747728

• Chris’ Website: https://www.chrislmoore.com
• Connect with Chris on Social Media:
• https://www.facebook.com/mfwguilt
• https://www.instagram.com/chrismooreauthorphd/

About Chris Moore

Dr. Chris Moore is a professor of psychology and former dean of science at Dalhousie University in Canada, as well as a former Canada Research Chair at the University of Toronto. He holds a PhD in developmental psychology from the University of Cambridge and an MFA in creative nonfiction from the University of King’s College. He has spent his career studying human social understanding and relations, and has published well over 100 research papers, edited 5 books and special issues of academic journals, and authored The Development of Commonsense Psychology (Psychology Press, 2006). He has had numerous invitations to present at academic conferences and universities around the world and has enjoyed many research collaborations in Canada, the United States, Australia, Germany, China, and the UK. Moore’s work has been cited in mainstream print publications such as Psychology Today, Today’s Parent, and the New York Times. His research has also been featured in a variety of TV documentaries, including The Nature of Things and the Baby Human series on Discovery Health. His new book, The Power of Guilt: Why We Feel It and Its Surprising Ability to Heal, is his first for a general audience. He lives in Nova Scotia with his family.

Related episodes: 

• 430. Nonadaptive Guilt and Shame with Carolyn Allard 
• 118. Moral Injury and Shame with Lauren Borges and Jacob Farnsworth 
• 320. Anger and Forgiveness with Robyn Walser 
• 358. How to Keep House While Drowning with KC Davis 
• 341. Self-Forgiveness with Grant Dewar 

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If you’ve ever ended an argument with your partner, coworker, or family member feeling confused about how it escalated so quickly, this episode is for you. 

Julia Minson, founder of the Constructive Disagreement Lab and author of How to Disagree Better, explains to us why trying to “win” arguments often starts fights and offers a different metric for success: a disagreement that increases both people’s willingness to talk again. 

Drawing on her work on naive realism and research on receptiveness, she discusses why differences feel threatening, how listening is hard to perceive in conflict, and how language can signal receptivity using the HEAR framework. Listen in to learn evidence-based tools to make hard conversations in your life more constructive.

Listen and Learn: 

• Julia’s upbringing in a family of psychologists, her immigrant experience, and her years as a ballroom dancer, and why people can share the same moment yet see it completely differently, making disagreement inevitable
• Why a truly constructive disagreement isn’t about “winning” or changing minds, but about improving mutual willingness to continue the conversation and deepening understanding
• Naive realism and the tendency to assume our perceptions are objectively correct, which underlies everyday conflicts, because everyone thinks “I get it” and struggles to see others’ perspectives
• How true receptiveness works, not just thinking receptively, but expressing it clearly through language so others genuinely feel heard, especially in conflict or disagreement
• How to use the HEAR framework to communicate receptively and build stronger relationships
• Julia’s Hawk story and how approaching disagreements with curiosity rather than judgment can turn tense or potentially divisive moments into understanding, connection, and even common ground

Resources: 

• How to Disagree Better: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593855003
• Julia’s Websites: https://disagreeingbetter.com/ and https://www.juliaminson.com/ 
• Connect with Julia on Social Media: 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-minson-5b511b150/
• https://twitter.com/juliaminson 
• Take The Measure of Receptivity:https://receptiveness.net/survey.html 

About Julia Minson: 

Julia Minson is a professor of public policy at Harvard Kennedy School and founder of the Constructive Disagreement Lab, where she studies what she calls the "psychology of disagreement" — how we actually engage with views that conflict with our own, especially on the hot-button stuff: politics, values, health decisions.

Her new book, How to Disagree Better, starts from a counterintuitive premise: we're drowning in advice on how to win arguments, but Julia's research shows that trying to win is basically a guaranteed way to start a fight. Her work offers evidence-based strategies for being genuinely receptive to opposing views, which turns out to be far more effective than perfecting your persuasion game.

Related Episodes:

• 276. Assertive Communication Skills with Randy Paterson
• 281. Belonging Uncertainty and Bridging Divides with Geoffrey Cohen
• 371. Uniting Toward a Better Future with Diana McLain Smith
• 392. Outraged with Kurt Gray
• 403. Conflict Resilience with Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas

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