Sex With Dr. Jess

Researchers suggest that there are four types of dating couples and your type can influence whether the relationship lasts. Jess and Brandon explore these research topics in their last episode of 2023.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 344

4 Types of Couples — Which One Are You?

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Alright, alright. Are we ready to talk about four types of couples?

[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: I’m always ready to talk about four types of couples. Which four types of couples are we talking about?

[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: Four types of couples. Which one are you? It reminds me of like a quiz. What type of onion are you?

[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: I’m a white onion.

[00:00:28] Jess O’Reilly: You are a white onion.

[00:00:28] Brandon Ware: Because I can only name two types of onions.

[00:00:30] Jess O’Reilly: What’s the other one?

[00:00:31] Brandon Ware: Red onions.

[00:00:32] Jess O’Reilly: What about Vidalia?

[00:00:33] Brandon Ware: I don’t know what that is.

[00:00:34] Jess O’Reilly: Green.

[00:00:35] Brandon Ware: Sure. Green.

[00:00:35] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. Spanish.

[00:00:36] Brandon Ware: Okay. Listen, listen.

[00:00:38] Jess O’Reilly: Shallot.

[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Onion connoisseur.

[00:00:41] Jess O’Reilly: I like an onion. So we’ll be talking about four types of couples and some research. But before we do that, I wanted to very briefly dive into some other research and data that I’ve come across this week.

[00:00:51] Jess O’Reilly: And we have a little announcement at the end, I guess before we dive into it, I need to shout out adamandeve. com because they’ve got a big, big, big sale going on. And. You can save 50 percent off almost any single item plus free shipping and rush handling with code. Dr. Jess 50,

[00:01:08] Brandon Ware: Dr. Jess 50.

[00:01:09] Jess O’Reilly: Go buy something that vibrates something. Okay. Question for you.

[00:01:12] Brandon Ware: Yes.

[00:01:12] Jess O’Reilly: Are funny people more attractive to you?

[00:01:15] Brandon Ware: Funny people are more attractive.

[00:01:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like, are you attracted to funny people?

[00:01:18] Brandon Ware: Yes.

[00:01:19] Jess O’Reilly: Hang on. Am I funny?

[00:01:19] Brandon Ware: Hold on. Yes. You’re very funny, but what, but what else is like, what’s the and

[00:01:24] Jess O’Reilly: well, the question is, are you attracted to humor? Or do you find attractive people funnier?

[00:01:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I’m going to just say this. So I noticed that every little joke, like every little snide remark, every little kind of anything I say, that’s even a little bit funny, I noticed you really laugh at, and I’m like, this guy’s my biggest fan, but

[00:01:41] Brandon Ware: I’m your biggest fan. For sure.

[00:01:42] Jess O’Reilly: Is it because I’m funny? Is it because you get my jokes or is it because you just like me?

[00:01:46] Brandon Ware: I think it’s a combination of all those things. But I also think that I don’t want somebody who’s. Super funny and not attractive to me. So it’s a combination of both.

[00:01:54] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, you mean physically attractive?

[00:01:55] Brandon Ware: Physically attractive. Yes.

[00:01:57] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Now everybody talks about how funny you are.

[00:01:59] Brandon Ware: Well, I’m super [00:02:00] hilarious.

[00:02:00] Jess O’Reilly: No, but like everywhere we go, everyone’s like, Brandon’s so funny and I don’t see it.

[00:02:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I think you’re, you’re, you’re missing out.

[00:02:08] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe everyone else is more attracted to you.

[00:02:10] Brandon Ware: Sometimes I don’t even need people to hear my jokes. I will just, have you ever caught me laughing to myself?

[00:02:15] Jess O’Reilly: Says the guy who has a microphone in front of him.

[00:02:17] Brandon Ware: I know, but I don’t need people to laugh at my jokes because I can just tell myself jokes. I’m hilarious.

[00:02:21] Jess O’Reilly: I do that because I used to spend so much time alone. I’d like be making jokes in my head and laughing through the airport. Now I have you to be my laugh track. Okay. So Kenneth Tan, an assistant professor of psych at Singapore Management University, he and his team set out to look into whether humor breeds attraction and connection.

[00:02:37] Jess O’Reilly: Or if it is perceived as a result of that attraction and connection. So they studied 108 young couples in relationships. I should probably note that these couples had only been together around 18 months as usual. Convenient sample college, probably college students. So every day they reported their perceptions of humor in their relationships, as well as their levels of satisfaction, commitment.

[00:03:00] Jess O’Reilly: in the relationship and their perceived partner commitment. And what they found was that those who were more satisfied and committed to the relationship on a particular day, also found their partners funnier that day and the next day.

[00:03:13] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I get it.

[00:03:14] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, like if I’m mad at you, I’m not going to admit you’re funny.

[00:03:16] Brandon Ware: No, but I am funny.

[00:03:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So the moral and Oh, here’s another thing they found. So here’s what the researcher said on the days. Where you were less satisfied and committed with your relationship. You found your partner less humorous, both on the same day, as well as the next. On the other hand, we didn’t find consistent evidence of the reverse.

[00:03:33] Jess O’Reilly: So on the days you perceived and initiated more humor, it wasn’t associated with greater commitment the next day, only satisfaction. So,

[00:03:40] Brandon Ware: so how do you deal with it when we get into an argument, but you find me so funny that day and the next day, like, is it hard for you? Tell me the truth. Like,

[00:03:47] Jess O’Reilly: okay. So we use a lot of humor and I think we laugh even when we’re fighting.

[00:03:52] Brandon Ware: I mean,

[00:03:53] Jess O’Reilly: mostly

[00:03:53] Brandon Ware: one way, but yeah, I get it.

[00:03:55] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Yeah. Only me. Okay. Moral of the story of this study is that Brandon isn’t funny. I [00:04:00] just like him. Next up, next study, apparently, okay. Let me ask you what you think. Do you think opposites attract?

[00:04:08] Brandon Ware: No, not entirely.

[00:04:09] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:04:10] Brandon Ware: I think that there are, we have a lot of similarities.

[00:04:12] Brandon Ware: I think our core values align in a lot of ways. And I think because of that, we are. Um, we engage in conversations, perhaps we commiserate, uh, but I think that those core fundamental values align. And I think that that is so contradicting your opposites attract, but there are other parts of our, of our being, of our personalities that I think are very opposite, I think.

[00:04:35] Jess O’Reilly: I think of us as so opposite in so many ways.

[00:04:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I think that you’re much more of an extrovert than I am.

[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: That’s funny though, because I think when people meet you, you, you also kind of come across as an extrovert. Like you’re pretty chatty, you initiate conversation, you ask people a lot of questions, you like to entertain.

[00:04:49] Jess O’Reilly: This man loves to tell a story. He likes to hold the whole table and tell a story.

[00:04:54] Brandon Ware: Yes, only if it’s a good story though. And I’ve got some good stories. Wow. But. I guess I’m just thinking about how much of an extrovert I perceive you as. And yes, you’re right. I am not an introvert. I am just more introverted than you are.

[00:05:08] Brandon Ware: So perhaps the bar for that is, is quite.

[00:05:11] Jess O’Reilly: Just cause I’ll talk to anyone for any given time.

[00:05:13] Brandon Ware: We were at the other day and you were talking to someone. I’m like, why are you talking to this person? I’m like, I don’t want to talk to this person right now. Like I just want to take my coffee and go. And I love talking to a barista, but I’m just saying.

[00:05:22] Brandon Ware: I just didn’t want to talk that day.

[00:05:23] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, I guess we have lots in common, but also we’re very, we’re very different in some ways. So this study, they reviewed previous research and they actually looked at 22 traits across nearly 200 research papers. So it involved millions of partnerships. They were all male to female because they’re doing a separate analysis on the same sex partnership data.

[00:05:42] Jess O’Reilly: And so they looked at all of these old studies, or not old, but studies, 200 papers, and some of them did go. Quite a ways back, like a hundred years. And then they looked at newer data. So an analysis of 133 trades. What’s so funny?

[00:05:55] Brandon Ware: I’m just like, what are you like? I love walking up the hill, 480 [00:06:00] vertical feet and snow with no shoes on.

[00:06:03] Jess O’Reilly: Is that what you think the world was like

[00:06:04] Brandon Ware: a hundred years ago? That’s what it was. Yep. That, and it’s like, I don’t know, a whole bunch of other things. ,

[00:06:10] Jess O’Reilly: I’m watching the Gilded Age, not gonna comment on that. That’s even longer than a hundred years ago. And they didn’t walk. They were rich people. They took carriages,

[00:06:15] Brandon Ware: they took them with horses.

[00:06:17] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know.

[00:06:18] Brandon Ware: They were pooping in a poop bag behind them. I, so, and you could smell it. This is, this is where my brain goes.

[00:06:22] Jess O’Reilly: This is why I don’t watch TV with you.

[00:06:24] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I know.

[00:06:24] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So in addition to the 200 papers they reviewed, they looked at 133 traits in nearly 80,000 couples who are enrolled in the UK Biobank project.

[00:06:35] Jess O’Reilly: All right.

[00:06:35] Brandon Ware: Curious about what the biobank project is.

[00:06:37] Jess O’Reilly: I know, I really should have looked that up. They give urine and marital satisfaction data.

[00:06:41] Brandon Ware: What kind of bodily fluids do you have to volunteer biobank?

[00:06:45] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, fast forward. Both data analyses found that couples pretty much match up across a range of traits, including political and religious views.

[00:06:53] Jess O’Reilly: Doesn’t surprise me. IQ. education levels, and even habits like smoking, drinking, heavy drinking. So height, weight, medical problems, and personality traits, um, some of those types of things varied among couples. And here’s an interesting one for you. Extroverts were no more likely to partner up with other extroverts than introverts.

[00:07:12] Brandon Ware: Interesting.

[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s that one thing that’s different, but Overall, these traits, including, for example, age, makes sense, number of sexual partners in the past, and even whether or not they were breastfed as a child tended to match up. Were you breastfed? Do you know, do you remember?

[00:07:25] Brandon Ware: I don’t, I don’t recall.

[00:07:27] Brandon Ware: I don’t remember anything from before I was about 10.

[00:07:30] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I don’t think anybody remembers like the act of being breastfed.

[00:07:34] Brandon Ware: Or is anybody, can somebody else please email it? Tell me if this is how you feel. Maybe before I was eight, I think I remember one event from every year. Maybe it’s like, what am I blocking out?

[00:07:45] Jess O’Reilly: I remember being free.

[00:07:47] Brandon Ware: You remember everything. You remember the day your sister was born.

[00:07:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I do remember the day my sister was born, which was exactly, I guess, 37 months after I was born.

[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I don’t remember anything from before. I was like, seriously, I think my first memory is when I was like. [00:08:00] Five,

[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: and I remember details

[00:08:02] Brandon Ware: and then there’s a big gap to eight.

[00:08:04] Jess O’Reilly: Those are the three bad years.

[00:08:05] Brandon Ware: Something happened there.

[00:08:07] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So, okay. So we basically have previous research prior to the study that has shown that romantic partners tend to share core beliefs, values, hobbies, and we tend to connect with people who are in our area, right? So in our friend group, in our general proximity, and so they’re.

[00:08:23] Jess O’Reilly: pointing to some concerns around, for example, concentration of wealth, because the more we continue to partner with people with similar family backgrounds, similar economic backgrounds, similar educational backgrounds, and therefore similar career and earning prospects, the more some of us will be able to.

[00:08:40] Jess O’Reilly: Kind of hoard and grow that wealth for the future unless we redistribute wealth for generations and then it can of course make climbing the economic ladder harder for folks who don’t have access.

[00:08:49] Brandon Ware: So kind of reminds me a little bit of that attraction selection attrition model where you know who you attract is like it ends up being very homogenous.

[00:08:58] Brandon Ware: Like the type of people that you attract.

[00:09:00] Jess O’Reilly: And so that’s a model from IO psychology. So it tends to work, relate to the workplace. So maybe explain that for folks.

[00:09:06] Brandon Ware: So, I mean, from what I understood, it was you attract a certain type of people. You select that type of people that you, you know, that you embody the principles that you reflect, and then the attrition from people who maybe don’t fit into that same model results in homogeneity in your organization, or perhaps even within your friend group.

[00:09:23] Brandon Ware: So it’s just making me think about those same principles and you’re talking about. Those circles.

[00:09:28] Jess O’Reilly: So what are in the IO side, like in the organizational side, what are some ways to offset the fact that we tend to attract and further support people who are like us?

[00:09:38] Brandon Ware: Well, I mean, diversity is the biggest one.

[00:09:40] Brandon Ware: I mean, just having people in your organization making those decisions and being involved in those decisions, I would assume bringing different perspectives and different, um, analyses is a huge contributor to that. Changing that model

[00:09:52] Jess O’Reilly: and really thinking of the supports because we, okay, yes, you can attract the candidates, but how do you make sure that it’s a supportive environment for [00:10:00] them, an environment where they can not only succeed, but kind of grow in that role.

[00:10:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I would think that the supports we tend to seek out or enact or prioritize, like in that, say at the management level or the executive level are ones that appeal to us. So we have to think outside that box. Right.

[00:10:15] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:10:15] Jess O’Reilly: And so I’m thinking, okay, so it’s. Inorganizational programming, it seems more straightforward to me.

[00:10:20] Jess O’Reilly: But what do we do in dating if we keep going after the same type of person?

[00:10:24] Brandon Ware: What was I reading or, or somebody was telling us something recently. Nobody was telling us anything. I was thinking about that dating app. I’m sorry. In Ted Lasso, where it wasn’t, there was no physical mark, like there was no photographs.

[00:10:37] Brandon Ware: There was nothing. You remember that whole, um, where it was just based on how Sam ends up with Rebecca. But I mean, thinking about that from a dating perspective, maybe looking beyond, you know, who you have historically wanted or been told to date.

[00:10:53] Jess O’Reilly: The problem is with resources, people like we, I still hear so many people talking about wanting to date someone who earns as much as them or earns more than them.

[00:11:01] Jess O’Reilly: And then we see that along gender lines. We’re not going to solve that problem today.

[00:11:05] Brandon Ware: No, not today.

[00:11:06] Jess O’Reilly: But all of us a little bit at a time. Okay. So now we get to why we’re here. What type of onion are you? So a university. A University of Illinois researcher, Brian Ogolsky, has identified four distinct approaches that dating couples use to develop deeper commitment.

[00:11:28] Jess O’Reilly: So he’s categorized them after analyzing data from 376 couples who are dating in their mid 20s, again, that young sample. And he tracked their commitment levels and their reasons for staying committed or not staying committed over the course of nine months. And so before we get into the four types, I think we have to talk about what commitment is in relationships.

[00:11:48] Jess O’Reilly: And because it’s a study, I think we have to look at how commitment is generally designed in research that looks at relationships. So commitment in relationships is usually centered around two [00:12:00] things. So the attachment and the intention to continue the relationship. And in research, they’ll often talk about it being influenced by satisfaction.

[00:12:08] Jess O’Reilly: by investments in the relationship and by the absence or downgrading of better alternatives. And so the one that strikes me as super important here is investments, because that’s really the way I like to frame relationships. And I know some people don’t love that word, but I’m literal, so I like it. And so the investment model, when we look at relationships, defines commitment in three components.

[00:12:31] Jess O’Reilly: So psychological attachment, so that, I guess, emotional bond. Long term orientation, which is the belief. In the relationship’s future and then intention to persist, which is just, you know, commitment and motivation to continue the relationship. And these components tend to operate differently in different types of relationships.

[00:12:49] Jess O’Reilly: So dating versus for example, long term or married. So in dating couples, the belief that the relationship will last is crucial for quality and stability. And in long term committed, for example, married couples, the intention to stay together is the most important. important factor in avoiding divorce.

[00:13:06] Jess O’Reilly: That doesn’t mean that it, it’s representative satisfaction, but if we’re going to talk about commitment and look at these four types of dating couples, and I think it can apply even if you’re not dating. So I just think it’s important to note that dating and married or committed couples experience commitment differently with future expectations playing different roles.

[00:13:24] Jess O’Reilly: So basically I’ll get to the fun stuff, the types of onions. So the first type of couples. Couple that they found was the dramatic couple.

[00:13:32] Brandon Ware: What? Oh my God. Tell me more about them.

[00:13:37] Jess O’Reilly: So these couples tend to have more turbulent relationships characterized by more frequent ups and downs. Their commitment tends to fluctuate more wildly and is often influenced by negative events.

[00:13:50] Jess O’Reilly: Or discouraging or negative thoughts about the relationship. So one thing they found with dramatic couples is they tend to prioritize spending time with separate [00:14:00] friend groups, with individual friends and engaging in separate activities, which is interesting because we definitely do that.

[00:14:05] Brandon Ware: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Jess O’Reilly: And what they found with dramatic couples is that this instability can erode the commitment over time. Now, having said that, he’s come up with these four types, or the team has come up with these four types, but you can fluctuate between them, and at different periods in your relationship, and over the course of dating, it can change.

[00:14:23] Brandon Ware: In the dramatic group, did they make reference to whether or not the instability is as a result of, sorry, having the different friend? Is that what they were saying or did they not really elaborate on it?

[00:14:32] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know if they drew, I think they just drew a correlation.

[00:14:35] Brandon Ware: Oh, okay.

[00:14:35] Jess O’Reilly: So, I mean, if you go and read just regular mainstream articles, they’ll go and overstate those things.

[00:14:41] Jess O’Reilly: So if you ever read articles on any topic, especially, I mean, I’m obviously more familiar with relationship stuff. Sometimes I’ll read an article with an interesting framework like this in a magazine or in a newspaper, but then mostly in magazines, I see these problems. Then I go to the journal where it was published and Sometimes what they’ll state in the magazine is either overstated or inaccurate, right?

[00:15:03] Jess O’Reilly: Like they’ll, so they’ll sometimes draw that correlation and turn it into a causation, right? It’s something like having separate friends leads to unhappy relationships when in fact, if you go to the data, that’s not exactly what it says or not even close.

[00:15:16] Brandon Ware: So after dramatic, what do we have?

[00:15:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. We have partner focused couples.

[00:15:20] Jess O’Reilly: So couples in this category have the highest likelihood of staying together and being content in the longterm. So again, remember they’re looking at people who are dating here, not married couples, and actually the purpose of this study was to look at movement towards marriage specifically. And then there’s all sorts of cultural commentary that we could talk about there, right?

[00:15:37] Jess O’Reilly: Because people’s personal views, sociocultural views toward marriage vary, not everybody wants to get married. In fact, I was reading a super interesting article about attitudes toward. Marriage in Spain specifically today and how people are very conflicted about marriage. It’s a very small percentage of young people who are either traditionalists or eager to get married.

[00:15:57] Brandon Ware: Well, in having these conversations with [00:16:00] people in different, uh, bars and restaurants and cafes, when we’ve been to Spain, hearing them talk about how they perceive relationships and marriage, like even the other day, talking to somebody in Spain about, uh, children and children being the, almost like the catalyst to getting.

[00:16:15] Brandon Ware: Married or being, um, sorry, a prenuptial agreement, almost like a civil agreement that they have here. So it’s just very different from country to country.

[00:16:23] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And it’s also different from generation to generation. So I actually was able to quickly pull up the study on marital beliefs and concerns of Spanish emerging adults.

[00:16:31] Jess O’Reilly: So I think the age was 18 to 30. So young people, but still adults, 9 percent fall into the indifferent category. 8 percent reject marriage. 15. 5 percent are hesitant. About getting married, 5 percent are convinced. So you’ve got 5 percent who are committed to the idea. They need to put them in one bar so they can all find each other.

[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: Like here’s here. That’ll be the nightclub that opens at 11 PM instead of 1 AM. And then they have 2. 5 percent who are traditionalists. So they believe in the concept of marriage as well. And then the largest group say that it’s contextual. So it depends on the context of the relationship, whether or not you have kids, whether you have the financial means and that’s 60%.

[00:17:10] Jess O’Reilly: But if we go back to, you know, partner focused couples having the highest likelihood of staying together, we also have to think about how the study was looking at movement toward marriage and that there are other reasons we don’t want marriage and it’s not necessarily about the partner. So partner focused couples exhibit high levels of conscientiousness.

[00:17:28] Jess O’Reilly: They emphasize thoughtfulness in their relationship choices. Many of their decisions are made with the focus of one another in mind. They may share a social network, but they don’t heavily rely on it to maintain their commitment. So, I mean, I think I’ll go through them, but I think that most folks Can kind of see where they fall, even if you’re really early in the dating relationship, because I get a lot of questions that I’m not qualified to answer around, how do I know if this person is the one for me, but I think that if you can look and say, okay, so we’re, we seem like we’re more dramatic or we seem like [00:18:00] we’re more partner focused or next step, we have socially involved couples, and I think we’re probably seeing more of these, they didn’t indicate.

[00:18:07] Jess O’Reilly: The percentage of the general population who falls into each category in terms of daters. But I think we probably see more socially involved couples because more of us are dating within our friend groups or starting to date friends, people we’ve been friends with for years. Similar to partner focused couples, the socially involved couples report very high relationship satisfaction and stability.

[00:18:26] Jess O’Reilly: And they share a social network and this network influences their commitment to the relationship. So having mutual friends strengthens their sense of closeness and commitment. And it really aligns with the idea that long term relationships are perhaps based on friendship based love or supported by a friend group.

[00:18:43] Jess O’Reilly: And I I’ve seen so much data in this respect that the way your friends feel about your partner. Influences or is sorry, is correlated with how you feel about your partner. And then finally we have conflict ridden couples. So these couples experience decreases in commitment after conflicts or arguments, but it doesn’t necessarily lead to a breakup.

[00:19:03] Jess O’Reilly: So these are the ups and downs, right? So their commitment levels can ebb and flow because of tension and conflict, basically pushing them apart. But then here’s the fun part. Passionate attraction, pulling them back together. So this type of love may not be sustainable in the long run. And individuals in these couples may transition between kind of different groups over time.

[00:19:22] Jess O’Reilly: So you can have conflict ridden periods, but still have, you know, stability in the relationship because you’re also partner focused or you lean on your social networks.

[00:19:33] Brandon Ware: It’s passion centered,

[00:19:34] Jess O’Reilly: conflict ridden couples,

[00:19:35] Brandon Ware: conflict ridden, have a lot of passion. I’m sorry. I just, it sounds exhausting.

[00:19:38] Jess O’Reilly: See, I’ve always been a little jealous of these couples.

[00:19:40] Jess O’Reilly: I’m like, I want to be so mad at you that the passion overtakes me and it’s just. Like animalistic, visceral, nasty attraction.

[00:19:48] Brandon Ware: Yeah. When I’m angry, I’m just angry.

[00:19:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I know.

[00:19:50] Brandon Ware: I’m just, I’m not like, yeah, let’s do it. I’m, I’m always like, Oh, I’m just so upset right now. I don’t want to do it.

[00:19:58] Jess O’Reilly: So anyhow, I think these, [00:20:00] these four frameworks can be interesting to think about how you cross over.

[00:20:03] Jess O’Reilly: Because I think that, for example, we’ve had periods where, where it has been more conflict ridden. I definitely think we’ve had some periods where we’re socially involved, but we don’t really share. We don’t share a close friend network, but we have a lot of overlap socially. And also our social overlaps with our professional.

[00:20:19] Jess O’Reilly: So we have a lot of overlap.

[00:20:20] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree with that for sure.

[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: And my friends are friends with you.

[00:20:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I’m friends with your friends, but I don’t, I wouldn’t call them to hang out. So I feel like we definitely have independent friend groups in that respect. Or your friends. I have, I, my friend is, uh.

[00:20:34] Jess O’Reilly: Who’s your friend?

[00:20:35] Brandon Ware: I have friend. They’re going to remain anonymous.

[00:20:37] Jess O’Reilly: I’m definitely I don’t need to tell you who my friend is. I actually think that, you know, these are just four frameworks, but they’re certainly not exhaustive because I was thinking about people where I, for example, have a social network and you tap into that social network.

[00:20:51] Brandon Ware: Yes, I would agree with that. And I think I benefit more from your friend group. Like I know that your friends would support me.

[00:20:57] Jess O’Reilly: Some of them,

[00:20:58] Brandon Ware: some of them, but I do know that in all seriousness, that your friend group is a source and can be a source of support for me, whereas I don’t think that my friend group would be that same source of support for you.

[00:21:07] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I don’t know their names.

[00:21:08] Brandon Ware: Well, yeah. Cause I don’t have any friends.

[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: I was also thinking about dramatic couples who have these turbulent relationships with frequent ups and downs. And I know that I can be a little bit like that.

[00:21:17] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, I think that we all go through points, maybe short lived. I mean, in our relationship, short lived periods of time where there is drama or dramatic responses to situations.

[00:21:27] Jess O’Reilly: I’m a dramatic responder. You don’t know. Cause it’s inside of me. And I’m like, I don’t like this guy. I’m like, it’s pretty, I only feel it for a hot.

[00:21:35] Brandon Ware: And then I crack a joke and it’s like, Oh, how can you leave this?

[00:21:39] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Anyhow, thought I would share that in case you are dating, because I have been getting more questions from daters and I don’t have as much experience working with daters, but I thought this piece of research could be interesting.

[00:21:50] Brandon Ware: You work with daters all the time. You’re always providing insights and guidance and counsel.

[00:21:55] Jess O’Reilly: Yes,

[00:21:55] Brandon Ware: but downplaying your skills.

[00:21:57] Jess O’Reilly: You know what it is, the dating markets are so [00:22:00] complex and all I hear from people kind of all around the world is how difficult it is. So in Toronto, they’re like, Toronto is the worst place to date.

[00:22:06] Jess O’Reilly: In Barcelona, they’re like, Barcelona is the worst place to date. And I hear about that in New York City. New York City is the worst place to date. LA is the worst place to date. Everybody’s flaky.

[00:22:15] Brandon Ware: Has anyone ever commented on how great it is to date in a certain city or a certain area? Because I can’t think of it.

[00:22:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I definitely hear from North Americans who like dating in Europe. They do. Like, for example, I hear from Americans who go over to Germany and they like dating because people are straightforward.

[00:22:30] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I was going to say that about, I heard, I’ve heard that about Irish, the Irish and the British,

[00:22:34] Jess O’Reilly: the Brits.

[00:22:35] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Maybe it’s more just at a, at the club. I’ve heard from people who went to the club and. I think the club, just the one,

[00:22:43] Jess O’Reilly: the one club,

[00:22:43] Brandon Ware: the one night club, but where, and I think it’s because women are more honest and transparent about what it is they want.

[00:22:51] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, you mean women are more likely to initiate contact?

[00:22:54] Brandon Ware: Yes.

[00:22:55] Jess O’Reilly: Whereas in Toronto, nobody,

[00:22:56] Brandon Ware: nobody does anything. Yeah, it’s like, Hey, let’s play the guessing game.

[00:23:00] Jess O’Reilly: And then they’re like, you’re stuck up. Okay. So when I say I don’t, I, I tend to work more with couples. Let’s be honest. Like I tend to work more with couples, but when I do come across research that I think is interesting to daters, I like to kind of dive into it.

[00:23:12] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of these things can apply regardless of where you are in the relationship.

[00:23:15] Brandon Ware: Absolutely.

[00:23:16] Jess O’Reilly: So we’ll leave it at that. This was a little bit of a quickie and there’s a couple of reasons for that. Or maybe it’s not a quickie. I have no concept of how long things last for. Brandon can tell me.

[00:23:25] Brandon Ware: This is great. It’s wonderful. Yes. Babe,

[00:23:27] Jess O’Reilly: Brandon can tell me something lasted 40 minutes. And I’m like, okay, but why is Brooklyn nine, nine still on? It’s a 24 minute program,

[00:23:34] Brandon Ware: long episode, long episode,

[00:23:36] Jess O’Reilly: extended version. So we spoke about burnout recently. And on that note, we have had many private conversations without the mics.

[00:23:44] Jess O’Reilly: And we’re going to take a little break from the podcast.

[00:23:46] Brandon Ware: Yeah, we are going to take a break.

[00:23:47] Jess O’Reilly: Take a little break.

[00:23:48] Brandon Ware: But you know what, for people who are listening and going back through the archives, I, I’ve give us a rating, give us a, give us a rating and if you like what you like, if you like what you’re, yeah, really, but if you like what you’re listening [00:24:00] to, give us a rating.

[00:24:00] Brandon Ware: We would appreciate it. I would appreciate it.

[00:24:02] Jess O’Reilly: Especially on Spotify.

[00:24:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, for sure.

[00:24:05] Jess O’Reilly: That’d be great. And then we’ll be back with more. I think in the new year, but right now I just need to breathe a little. So we’ll send it off with that. Wishing everyone a happy upcoming holiday break. If you’re taking one, hoping that you do get some rest and some peace and some love and the word that’s on my mind is ease.

[00:24:24] Brandon Ware: I hope so.

[00:24:24] Jess O’Reilly: I feel pretty emotional right now. Not just about taking the break, but about the idea of easing into hopefully a little bit of quiet over the holidays until. The family arrives, so no quiet. And I will again, shout out Adam and Eve code DrJess50. If you are shopping for fun stuff over the holidays for yourself, for a partner, for a friend,

[00:24:45] Brandon Ware: for anyone,

[00:24:45] Jess O’Reilly: adamandeve. com. Thanks folks. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you have a lovely holiday and all the best for the upcoming year.

[00:24:53] ​

Isle McElroy joins Jess and Brandon to talk about intimacy, vulnerability and sex — on paper and in the flesh. An award-winning non-binary author based in New York, McElroy’s latest novel People Collide is a gender-bending, body-switching story exploring marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership. Isle shares personal insights on what makes for a good sex scene, how inadequacy plays out in relationships and what they’ve learned from rethinking sex and pleasure.

To learn more about Isle McElroy, check out their social media – Instagram and Twitter

And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 343

Sex, Gender & Intimacy: People Collide with Isle McElroy

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Hey, hey, today we’re talking about sex, gender, and intimacy with Isle McElroy, an award winning non binary author based in New York, whose latest novel, People Collide, is a gender bending, body switching story about marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership.

[00:00:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and this story isn’t your traditional kind of body swap, you know, thinking Freaky Fridays. So the story is… Eli, when Eli, the main character, leaves the cramped Bulgarian apartment, he shares with his wife, Elizabeth, who’s more organized, more successful than he is. He discovers that he now inhabits her body.

[00:00:48] Jess O’Reilly: So not only have he and his wife traded bodies, but Elizabeth living as Eli, has disappeared without a trace, and what follows is Eli’s search across Europe, to America, to find his missing wife, and an exploration of gender and embodied experience. As Eli comes closer to finding Elizabeth while learning to exist in her body, he begins to wonder what effect this metamorphosis will have on their relationship, and how long he can maintain the illusion of of living as someone he isn’t.

[00:01:17] Jess O’Reilly: And the questions, you know, are will their new marriage wither completely in each other’s bodies, or is this transformation the very thing Eli and Elizabeth need for their marriage? to thrive. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I’ve been reading the book. I’m almost done. I thought I’d be done by today, but I have a lot of questions about some of the messaging and themes, and I think it’s going to be a great conversation.

[00:01:37] Jess O’Reilly: Now, before we welcome our guest, I’ll want to announce a partnership with fellow podcasters Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women. The podcast, season two, is out now and it’s hosted by Nana Darkwa Sakiyama and Malaika Grant. The podcast explores African women’s experiences of sex, sexuality, [00:02:00] and pleasure and they have a host of fabulous guests in their bedroom this season.

[00:02:05] Jess O’Reilly: They have top sexpert Ohlone from the UK, fabulous comedienne Yvonne Orji. Feminist powerhouse, Mona Altahawe, and many, many more. And they’re asking all their guests, what’s your sexy secret? What’s your secret, babe?

[00:02:19] Brandon Ware: I can’t tell you. It’s a secret. That’s why it’s a secret.

[00:02:21] Jess O’Reilly: So predictable. Okay. That and so much more in the new season of the Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women podcast out now.

[00:02:30] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:02:33] Jess O’Reilly: Joining us now is Al McElroy. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:37] Isle McElroy: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:39] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re enjoying reading through your work. Not only People Collide, but some of your previous work, Short Stories. I understand this is your second book.

[00:02:47] Jess O’Reilly: I was thinking about the pressure of an author in terms of your second book because everybody’s comparing it to your first, expecting more of the same. Is that something that, you know, you kind of face as an author or do you have to just leave it behind and do what works for you?

[00:03:01] Isle McElroy: Yeah, I think I have not, there’s definitely been a lot of comparison to the first book.

[00:03:07] Isle McElroy: I feel in a very strange place because my first book was published under my dead name. So it both feels as if this is my second book and my first book that is really mine. I think what’s been really exciting about the two books is that they do feel like they’re in conversation with each other. The first book, The Atmospherians, was about two best friends who start a cult to reform problematic men, uh, like a satire about gender.

[00:03:30] Isle McElroy: And this book is a more intimate about a married couple who swap bodies. And I do feel like it seems like a really amazing evolution. for me in how I’ve been thinking about gender, how I’ve been thinking about relationship. First book is a lot about friendship. This second book is a lot about marriage.

[00:03:46] Isle McElroy: So for me, I’ve been really always interested in tight knit, intimate relationship. And this book was an opportunity to be more romantic about it. So I haven’t felt most of the comparison has been with myself. Um, less so with [00:04:00] other people putting that on me, thankfully.

[00:04:01] Jess O’Reilly: Good for you. You know, um, you talk about intimacy and I definitely want to speak about that as well as sexuality and gender and fluidity.

[00:04:08] Jess O’Reilly: But People Collided explores all these relationship themes, right, and, and to me beautiful and vulnerable and sometimes kind of uncomfortable. Framing for the reader and from the onset, we see a character who seemingly kind of is accepting of feeling inadequate. And that theme jumps out to me. So the character Eli seems kind of resigned to be unworthy of Elizabeth and she’s more successful and motivated and responsible and brave.

[00:04:33] Jess O’Reilly: And he describes her kind of as this full human, whereas he’s just an appendage, you know, her name literally encompasses his. So this hierarchical dynamic shows up in other relationships in the story as well. And. In the context of a body swap story and one that crosses gender and explore sexuality, because anything I’ve consumed prior to People Collide did not explore these themes.

[00:04:56] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious what you think we, what you want us to learn or consider or feel. About the experience of feeling inadequate in relationships with yourself or with others.

[00:05:05] Isle McElroy: Oh, that’s such a good question. Um, I think it’s so. What’s interesting about Eli for me is that inadequacy is a form of safety for him, that it is a way that he doesn’t need to actually engage with the things that he is talented at.

[00:05:23] Isle McElroy: He doesn’t need to engage with what he actually does well. In this marriage, the fact that he is there, the fact that he has sort of put his life on hold and that he is there as a support system is going into that school to do some things. He is showing up and he is very dismissive of his actions, which I think is a way for him to feel comfortable in control.

[00:05:45] Isle McElroy: I think we are even being inadequate is a really. fascinating control strategy in so far as it allows you to kind of seed responsibility. And that can be a really interesting way for, for this character, I think [00:06:00] has to, I mean, his opening sentences, I’m not a responsible man. So he has to find responsibility over the course of this novel, responsibility for his own life, responsibility for his actions, and that he is so willing to claim inadequacy is kind of a bluff.

[00:06:16] Isle McElroy: It’s something that is keeping him, he doesn’t want to claim that responsibility because he’s scared of it. He’s scared of what it would mean to actually run and like dive into his life in the way that probably Elizabeth and other people think that he can but he doesn’t really want to confront. So I do think it’s a way for him to Avoid responsibility in a really interesting way

[00:06:36] Brandon Ware: is a common theme.

[00:06:37] Brandon Ware: Do you feel like you see this a lot

[00:06:40] Brandon Ware: in your life? And like, I mean, I’m just thinking about this, how it pertains to me and I’m like, yeah, you’re right. Absolving yourself of responsibility, shirking responsibility, even when it comes to simple things in a relationship where it’s like, what do you want to have for dinner today?

[00:06:52] Brandon Ware: I’m like, yeah, I’m easy. Like, I don’t.

[00:06:54] Brandon Ware: And it’s like, am I really easy? Or is it that I just don’t want to take responsibility for making that decision?

[00:06:58] Isle McElroy: I mean, decisions are hard, like, it’s, you know, there’s so many decisions throughout a life. Yeah, go ahead.

[00:07:05] Brandon Ware: No, and I was just thinking, like, you’re already

[00:07:07] Brandon Ware: cutting me slack.

[00:07:08] Brandon Ware: Don’t.

[00:07:09] Isle McElroy: Okay, we’re deciding right now what you’re eating for dinner.

[00:07:14] Jess O’Reilly: Dumplings. It’s white rice and dumplings.

[00:07:19] Isle McElroy: No, but I, I get in those moments all the time, right? Where I’m like, I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care. And then I realized. Oh, wait, I did care. I just, and then suddenly I become a little like needs monster where, um, and people are like, I thought you didn’t care about anything.

[00:07:32] Isle McElroy: And it’s like, no, I cared about everything. I was just trying to be chill and cool and to like, not have any responsibility because I think it can feel. Easy and is a nice way to not like take control of your own life,

[00:07:44] Brandon Ware: but also kudos to you for being able to take responsibility. I’m saying, you know what, I do have needs because I think a lot of times for me, it might manifest itself in something later on where I’ll say, yeah, no, I’m easy, no problem.

[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: And then I’m eating whatever I’m eating and I don’t think about it. I’m irritated. I mean, I don’t really think I am, but let’s [00:08:00] just say I am irritated. Then I get into an argument later on because I didn’t express my needs. And that’s all I had to do was just tell you what I wanted.

[00:08:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s such a common dynamic that we see and I feel like you’ve already kind of shared one strategy or solution, which is to recognize when you are feeling inadequate, what do I bring to the right to refocus?

[00:08:18] Jess O’Reilly: Because, and that’s what you allow with this character for him to also explore, okay, there are to show that there are these things that. you contribute to the relationship. I mean, the fact that he moved across the world to Bulgaria for this person is a huge source of love and support and, and showing up in the relationship.

[00:08:36] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that, you know, when I think about breaking dynamics of hierarchy or overcoming feelings of inadequacy, Eli’s story does offer some imperfect illustration of first steps. So, you know, here, we’re always trying to think about, so how do people take these lessons and maybe Apply it in their own lives and, um, yeah, the piece around inadequacy and hierarchy.

[00:08:55] Jess O’Reilly: And of course we can pull out the kind of parent child dynamics there and that shirking of responsibility. And it’s easy to say somebody’s better at it than me to avoid having to engage. And we see that across gender lines all the time, like especially, Oh, but she’s so good at that. So she might as well do it.

[00:09:13] Isle McElroy: No, I think about that too. Like. In that sometimes we just need to trust that someone can do it and someone needs to, like, tell us that, like, they believe that we can do it as well. Right? Like, that is something, like, in, I think I’m in a partnership right now where, like, that has been something that we returned to a lot.

[00:09:30] Isle McElroy: Right? Like, actually being like, okay, Okay. I trust that you can do this. And if you don’t do it, then like, it’s sort of on you. It’s not like that the other person should take over. And I think there can be often this real impulse to be like, I’m just going to do it for this person and do it for this person, which can like slowly make someone feel both inadequate and like, they are just kind of coasting, right.

[00:09:53] Isle McElroy: And it becomes this sort of feedback loop. But I think just having so much trust that a person can do something is like one of the [00:10:00] greatest forms of like, Confidence and love that someone can show right or like I’m going to show you how to do this thing and I hope that you will be able to retain this information and do it because you care about me right which requires so much.

[00:10:11] Isle McElroy: I don’t know vulnerability and trust.

[00:10:13] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and I want to talk about vulnerability and you know the theme of intimacy in this novel and it you know if we think about intimacy as Something that comes from knowing one another, right? We think of ourselves as intimate and sexual and romantic partners. We use intimacy as a very inaccurate euphemism for sex even, but people collide to me frames intimacy from other angles, like the body swap.

[00:10:37] Jess O’Reilly: Right, which it means more familiarity, more understanding, new perspectives, you know, physical, social, practical, relational, right? The other way, the way people relate to you in a different body. And I’m curious about this desire or curiosity to know someone fully and how you see the limits of intimacy in terms of embodiment of another, right?

[00:10:59] Jess O’Reilly: Are we getting closer when we are embodied in that space or does that? Really knowing, does it leave nothing left? I don’t know if I’m framing the question in a clear way, but really what is intimacy and knowing and knowing another and knowing your body and embodiment, how do those things tie together?

[00:11:16] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Like I was trying to formulate an answer, like as you were asking the question and I feel like my mind is sort of like, I’m imagining like trying to walk on lily pads, right? Like as soon as I think I’m in one direction, I fall in another one, but I, so intimacy, like there are a lot of things there, so.

[00:11:33] Isle McElroy: The desire to fully know another person, I think, is real. Especially when we like, love someone, we’re like, Oh, like, I truly want to know all of them. I want to know everything about them. But I’m also sort of like, No, you don’t. Or like, if you do, then that wouldn’t be fair to them. I think that, like, one of the best things about another person is discovering more and more of the parts of them that you don’t know.

[00:11:54] Isle McElroy: And I think What this book does and what I was trying to explore is the kind of paradox of [00:12:00] infancy. As close as you get to another person, there should still be a lot of space for them to come to you. And that is one of the things that I think was really powerful about this book. The moment when Eli is reflecting, he’s in Elizabeth’s body and he’s like, I miss Elizabeth’s touch, but he literally has her hands.

[00:12:15] Isle McElroy: Right there and can control them. And for me, what I was thinking about is like, how is intimacy always a choice? There have been times when I want to be like, with like other partners, right? Like just say a thing to me, right? Like talk to me. But unless that person wants to actually make that choice, then it’s not actually intimacy.

[00:12:31] Isle McElroy: Like you can’t bully someone into intimacy as much as. It might seem like enough conversation would be able to get there. Someone eventually has to decide they’re ready to open up to you and say those things to you. And that is something that was really important in this book between Eli and Elizabeth.

[00:12:45] Isle McElroy: And what Eli has to reckon with is that embodiment doesn’t actually mean intimacy, right? Like that kind of like full closeness doesn’t mean intimacy because intimacy for me is about a constant choice to continue to share yourself with another person. It’s not about like cuddling with a person or being next to a person, it’s about what you say while you’re doing it.

[00:13:05] Isle McElroy: Um, like if you’re willing to bring up the thing that’s been on your mind rather than simply having like physical touch. And that I think was one of the most exciting things to explore for me in this book is just how, when do we decide to allow ourselves to become closer to another person and how is that decision so special and how that is like where intimacy really begins for me.

[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And it can’t really be manufactured. We see a lot of that now in, in self help and in like kind of the pop. Psychology of organizational psych, you know, how do you manufacture closeness in the workplace? How do you quickly in 3 questions or on TikTok see if you actually have intimacy in your relationship?

[00:13:45] Jess O’Reilly: Whereas You’ve created a scenario, a story where people are literally in one another’s bodies, and it doesn’t necessarily amount to intimacy. So I think that’s really, really interesting. And I also, I also think it speaks to the fact that you don’t need to know everything about your partner. And [00:14:00] I know there are people who disagree with me, other therapists who disagree with me, but I mean, we know that there’s excitement.

[00:14:06] Jess O’Reilly: In the end, no, but I don’t know if we realize how much value there is, how much intimacy there is in giving people space as well. I’ll hear from couples who say things like, Oh, there shouldn’t be any secrets in a relationship. I would hate to have to tell Brandon everything. I mean, we know each other very well.

[00:14:22] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve been together 20 something years. We talk a lot, maybe too much sometimes. But. I don’t want to know everything. I want to know that in 10 years, there’s some story he hasn’t told me when I think about that baseball story from Elizabeth and how he remarks on the fact that he, she never brought this up.

[00:14:40] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And that when they were earlier in the relationship, she would lie there and want to tell him everything about her past, but that one didn’t come up. And I liked the idea of saving some things either just for yourself or for other people in your life. or for later on in the relationship when it feels genuine to you.

[00:14:59] Isle McElroy: Absolutely. And I think so much of sharing is about like reaction. Like you’re in a moment where I feel like my, the way my memory works is I can’t bring things up like all the time. Someone will say something that reminds me of say like the baseball story or whatever. And then I go into that and I’m reminded of something that happened in childhood, but it’s hard for if someone.

[00:15:20] Isle McElroy: It feels a little too icebreaker sometimes if someone is like, tell me about like a childhood moment and I was like, I don’t know, but if we’re like walking and I see a tree that reminds me of like a tree that I like ran my bike into when I was eight, then I’ll be able to tell that story. But I didn’t even know that story existed until I was in that moment with that other person.

[00:15:39] Isle McElroy: And that To me is I think being also in a space where you’re safe enough to allow those memories to come back up and when they do come up, it can feel like you’re ready to share that with a person, right? And that you feel safe enough to allow these things to bubble up around a person, I think is again, part of intimacy where I don’t want to feel like someone is grilling me or asking me [00:16:00] questions or looking to get to like the center of me.

[00:16:02] Isle McElroy: I wanted to be like, I want to sort of share on my own time and feel safe to share. And I think that’s sort of what we all want. And I think for this book, especially I’ve been thinking like, I think it is It would be terrifying if someone knew everything about me, because I don’t know everything about me.

[00:16:19] Isle McElroy: So, that belief, and I think that there is a kind of, like, that to me seems like a real kind of insidious control, right? Like, oh, I can know everything about you. It’s like, no, get in line. Like, I’m first. I want to know this first. And if you think that, you know, there could be gentle, like, oh, you’re not treating yourself kindly, stuff like that.

[00:16:38] Isle McElroy: But I do think that… What I’ve heard, I think a lot of relationship stuff, like the, you know, podcasts and, um, Instagram therapists I’ve seen about like knowing a partner so well, like sometimes that can be so scary because I don’t want to be fully known by people. I like to remain a mystery to myself so that I can feel interesting to myself as well.

[00:16:58] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s such a challenge, I think, to strike that balance between yes, you want to formally invest in the relationship so that there’s space for intimacy and vulnerability and honest sharing, but also you don’t want it to be forced. So you’re making me think about my work. And when I go and work with couples and I’m giving them these exercises to do, and it’s a reminder that not everybody’s ready for them.

[00:17:18] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t mean that in a hierarchical way, just maybe it’s not the right time, but these exercises or these approaches or these conversations are there when it’s time to access them. Right. So you can have those conversations. Now, when I, I think about a body swap. So you say your inspiration for this book was thinking about your own gender more than it was thinking about the tradition of like movies and, you know, Freaky Friday.

[00:17:40] Jess O’Reilly: And you say it’s something you’ve been thinking about your entire life and the weight of needing to consider changing bodies in a culture that really does everything in its power to disallow it is obviously heavy and a burden. You shouldn’t have to carry. So I am curious, you’re writing about, you’re writing from this non binary perspective, what is it you’d like cis people to know, um, what to take away [00:18:00] so that we can better support non binary people as well?

[00:18:03] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think. Really, the biggest thing is just to trust other people’s experience. Like that is always one of the more surprising things is if I say something about myself and people are like, that’s not true. It’s like, this comes back, I think, to the question of intimacy and self knowledge versus how other people know it.

[00:18:23] Isle McElroy: And I think just allowing people the dignity to understand. Themselves, what they’ve been thinking about, how they want to identify, and just trusting that people know themselves better than you might know them. So, my relationship to cis people, like, you know, when someone wants to change their name. Trust that they know what they’re doing, right?

[00:18:44] Isle McElroy: When someone wants an appropriate pronoun, just use it. Like, I’m sorry if it’s a little hard, adjust and just try your best. There’s also like, try your best and show care. I do think that’s something that I’ve gotten good at is just understanding when people are trying. And I think when people put in a genuine effort, that’s really wonderful, but really, it’s just.

[00:19:06] Isle McElroy: Be patient and open and just listen to how non binary people, how trans people, how we talk about ourselves and just sort of follow that lead instead of trying to take the reins over yourselves.

[00:19:21] Jess O’Reilly: You’re making me think about… Who should be telling these stories and writing these stories and how people are represented in stories.

[00:19:29] Jess O’Reilly: I think about like the fetishization by race. And when I read things that fetishize my race, I, it doesn’t matter how beautiful the book was, how the story is woven, how talented the author is. The moment I see something that fetishizing based on race. And for me, like for Asian women immediately, I just, it hits hard.

[00:19:48] Jess O’Reilly: And so I’m curious, there aren’t as many stories. about trans people, about non binary people. But now we’re seeing more. And so I’m curious about the importance of non binary and trans [00:20:00] writers being centered in telling these stories. And if you maybe feel the same way around fetishization.

[00:20:05] Isle McElroy: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:06] Isle McElroy: I mean, it’s, I just did an interview with the activist Raquel Willis for New York Magazine for the Cut and her memoir, I would highly recommend it, The Risk It Takes to Bloom. And I think what’s so important about that book is how she really dives into the questions of safety as like a younger trans person, as how whether you’re going to come out at work, whether or not you’re going to identify as openly trans in public, and the sort of safety that that involves like around co workers or what type of relationship you want to be perceived in.

[00:20:39] Isle McElroy: And I think what was so great about that book is that She did such an incredible job of being a human, which is one of the things that often in the, like, a literature, like, I think trans literature explodes onto the scene and it’s easy to be like, trans people are great, they’re amazing, we only need, like, positive stories, but now…

[00:20:59] Isle McElroy: It’s, like, books like Detransition Baby by Tori Peters, Girlfriends by Emily Zhu, Nevada by Imogen Binney. Like, all these books are showing, like, what it actually feels like to be trans, the complications of it. How it’s not just all pain or all perfect people who are, you know, just shaped by a bad society.

[00:21:20] Isle McElroy: It’s just humans being humans. And that, I think, is the most important thing about trans and non binary people being able to tell our stories, is that we want to… talk about our lives as full people, not simply as background characters or as, you know, like, you know, being fetishized or just being, you know, perfect people, right?

[00:21:44] Isle McElroy: The opportunity to be human, I think is so important. And that I think is what you get when people are telling their own stories.

[00:21:49] Jess O’Reilly: That makes sense to me. Um, I want to talk about sex as well. So sexuality in people, Clyde, is it’s really framed as fluid. When I first read about the body swap, when I honestly, when I got the [00:22:00] email, I was like, Oh, this is going to be a story rooted in a binary of a man learning about women.

[00:22:03] Jess O’Reilly: They wear heels and see how hard it is to wear heels. Of course it’s far more fluid. And it’s far more beautiful and nuanced and complex with explorations of bisexuality and questions of asexuality. And I take away some messaging around, you know, fluidity, making more space for ease, which when it comes to sex, ease makes more space for pleasure.

[00:22:21] Jess O’Reilly: And you’ve spoken about how learning to be okay with your body during sex as a non binary person has involved having to reimagine and rethink how you find pleasure in sex. And I’m curious if you’d be willing to share a little bit more about your experience. And perhaps how it relates to Eli, the characters in the book.

[00:22:38] Isle McElroy: Yeah. So in my own personal experience, I think I needed to just really be a lot more in touch with my body, like as like sexually and just understanding, like, what do I actually like versus what do I think I should like? And that has been a huge challenge over the last couple of years since I came out just because I’m allowing myself to slow down.

[00:23:01] Isle McElroy: I’m allowing myself to feel pleasure that I want to feel versus Like, accepting a preconceived notion of that, of what I think pleasure should be, what I think sex should be, and that I think is especially important, um, having mostly been assumed male for most of my life, and now that I do identify as non binary, I feel like I’ve been able to just rethink what pleasure means, rethink what pleasure means with other partners, rethink like what it means to actually ask for what I want and to like slow down and to have conversations while having sex, and to really rethink what parts of my body I want to use versus what I previously thought that I wanted to use.

[00:23:40] Isle McElroy: And that I think has been one of the biggest changes and most exciting things for me. For Eli, In the book, I think what he begins to discover is how fluid his own sexuality is and that it’s not something that he was willing to embrace previously. It’s something, I’ve been thinking a lot about how so much of shame [00:24:00] is just tied to our own physical selves.

[00:24:01] Isle McElroy: And when Eli is not attached to his own body any longer, a body that he very diligently works out and like, shapes, he no longer has a Like physical shame, and that gives him a great deal of freedom in the sex scene that happens in the book, both of these characters I think are able to actually engage with their desires because they don’t feel shame in the same way.

[00:24:24] Isle McElroy: I think sexual shame, like the fear of being rejected is so much about someone doesn’t like my body. But if you’re not. Even in your own body, these characters are just so attached to their desire, as Eli puts it one way, like, desire cleansed of inhibitions. Because he doesn’t feel attached to the fear of rejection in the same way that he previously was.

[00:24:46] Isle McElroy: And getting to that space, for me, has been really difficult, but it is, like, something that I’ve been working towards in my relationships, in my, like, how I have sex with people now. Because it’s just really important to… Not think about, like, different desires as rejection, or not think about my body as something that is rejected, especially in sex, but as a sort of conversation between two people who are interested in each other, or however many people are interested in each other.

[00:25:15] Jess O’Reilly: How many you can fit in that room?

[00:25:16] Isle McElroy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:25:18] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Physically and emotionally, how many people can we handle right now? Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’m curious if you can share an experience or an insight for people who do want to take that approach, who want to not step out of their bodies, but detach from expectations around body, whether it’s related to gender, whether it’s related to age, body type, uh, you know, and, and our expectations, how do we disconnect from that so that we can actually.

[00:25:42] Jess O’Reilly: Connect in our bodies, and I’m sure you can’t distill it in a sentence, but is there something that you read or something that you thought or something that you did or an experience that took you there? Because I’m thinking about what what’s the 1st step people can take?

[00:25:56] Isle McElroy: Oh, that’s such a good question.

[00:25:58] Isle McElroy: I think [00:26:00] really, for me, it’s about, a lot of it has been about action over, like, verbs over nouns, is what I will say, and I’ve really had to rethink, like, how I talk about my body parts, right? Like, and, and how I talk about I like how I want to be touched, how I want to like touch other people. And that to me is about action versus, versus about what I want to touch.

[00:26:24] Isle McElroy: Right. Like, and, and that is, and, or like where and things like that. So I’m not sure I’m making sense, but I, I do think really slowing down and thinking about what is the action versus what are the, for me, at least I felt that thinking about. Yeah, just the activities that I want to be having with other people, the connections that I want to be having with other people versus, say, the, just the naming of acts or the naming of body parts.

[00:26:57] Isle McElroy: For me, it’s always, I’ve found so much comfort and so much freedom in just sort of meandering around naming things and just like asking permission over and over again about touch, right? And, and really knowing. Really slowing down into permission has been really helpful as well.

[00:27:16] Jess O’Reilly: And I asked her, and you don’t have to answer.

[00:27:18] Jess O’Reilly: We can, you know, if it’s not a fit, I’m curious if it’s about how you feel in your body versus how the body’s responding. I’m just trying to get a little bit more clarification. Like what might it look like to tune into action versus. It’s just a body part.

[00:27:30] Isle McElroy: I think a lot of it is trust that I know what feels good.

[00:27:34] Isle McElroy: And I say this knowing that it’s taken me like four years of working really hard to get to this point where I can even begin to trust that a certain action feels good. And so it is really, I think it goes back to expectations versus the reality of the moment. I feel like I’m being very new age y right now.

[00:27:58] Isle McElroy: Like, [00:28:00] when I allow myself to really trust someone and to just feel in my body that something feels okay to me. And that means, often, like, patience, right? Like, someone asking, can they do something? And I can sit for a second and be like, yes, right? Like, that, to me, is a constant reminder. Like, I’m okay with this.

[00:28:20] Isle McElroy: I am alright with this. And that really slow, like, Entering toward everything being okay feels really, really wonderful. Because I know that I am part of this, I am engaged in this, I am deciding in all of this, and I’m like, and all of this feels pleasurable and good. And that, I think, can ignite something in my body.

[00:28:41] Isle McElroy: Or, I know that if I say yes and feel in my body? Actually, no, maybe that was a no. Then I can hopefully have enough trust with that person to be like, actually, no, let’s not do that. Right. And getting, allowing myself to, like, this has been my, like, truly, like, all of my therapy work over, like, the last four years is like, what does my body actually feel when I respond to something?

[00:29:00] Isle McElroy: And what do I actually feel like? in my chest if I say I would love to do that and then I feel like a lurch in my stomach I’m like oh no like actually I don’t want to do that and hopefully I can say to someone let’s let’s step back and let’s not do that so a lot of it is about trust in myself and trust that I know what feels good and again this feels very new agey but I think a lot of it comes just becoming really really in tune with your body and that’s taken a lot of work and a lot of like real effort feel my own feelings which I feel like I didn’t do for the first, like, 30 years of my life.

[00:29:32] Isle McElroy: So now I’m really trying to catch up.

[00:29:35] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s a lot there, but I’m taking a lot out of it, because I think so many of us go through sex, go through our entire sex lives, doing what we’re supposed to do. Maybe we know we like to get off. But you asked two questions about, you know, how does this feel in my body?

[00:29:49] Jess O’Reilly: How will I respond if I say yes? How will a partner respond if I say no? I don’t think most people slow down because everything’s rushed and everything’s a bit shorthanded, shorthand, not [00:30:00] shorthanded. Everything we’re doing as quickly as we can and there’s kind of like these checklists and bucket lists, but I think there’s a lot more value in slowing down and saying, what does this feel like in my body?

[00:30:08] Jess O’Reilly: And we do this all the time in In all types of therapy, not related to sex. If something is stressing you out, you know, a question we ask is, you know, how does that show up in your body? And I don’t think that our culture, our world is designed for us to take that time. And when we take that time outside of the bedroom to tune into our body, we’re more likely to do the same inside of the bedroom.

[00:30:28] Jess O’Reilly: And of course, not all of us, everybody has a different amount of time or I think privilege access. To stop and say, how do I feel in my body? Because if we go back to some of the themes that have come up in this conversation and come up in the novel around fear and around safety, that hierarchy of needs, obviously you have to take care of being safe.

[00:30:44] Jess O’Reilly: Whether it be any sort of self actualization at the top or sexual self actualization. So I’m hearing what you’re saying. And I appreciate it. I appreciate those questions also for people to just stop and think, how does this feel in my body? Whether you’re at. Like early stages of dating, I often tell people like, stop thinking about, you know, are they the right fit?

[00:31:03] Jess O’Reilly: Do they, you know, do we align, do our values align? Just think about how you feel in your body in that moment. That’s a good place to start all the way through to the bedroom and long term relationship. If we can slow down and tune into sensations. Instead of thinking about like, can the kids hear me? Do I have to be up in the morning?

[00:31:18] Jess O’Reilly: Do they like this? What do I look like? Am I taking too long? I’m coming too fast. All the questions that we ask ourselves, you’re bringing it back to the body, which brings us back really to the theme of this novel as well. So I’m, I’m seeing it all come full circle. I’m really thankful for that insight.

[00:31:32] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I think there’s a valuable takeaway for all of us there. Before I let you go, I do want to ask about, so you mentioned the sex scene, which of course I recall intensely from the book. You’ve also written about the art of the sex scene, and I’m curious, as a writer, what makes a good sex scene on paper, and is it different than what makes a good sex scene, for example, on stage or in real life?

[00:31:55] Isle McElroy: So, I do think what makes a good sex scene on paper [00:32:00] is First off, attention to detail. That is, and really just knowing where things go, I think is really important. And like, just allowing the reader to see. I think a lot of people move too quickly, or they use euphemisms, and that to me seems like a really bad sex scene.

[00:32:15] Isle McElroy: Also, I think that Especially in writing, sex is an opportunity to reveal character. So when sex is a moment to show the souls of two characters or to show how they interact, how they talk to each other, that is really important. And that’s what I, some books that I, I think Garth Greenwell writes about sex really well.

[00:32:33] Isle McElroy: Raven Leilani is an excellent sex writer and in their work, Brian Washington does great sex in his books and all of their work. You can tell that these people have a connection with each other that goes beyond sex. And in sex writing, that, I think, is what’s really important, is seeing that it’s not just this.

[00:32:50] Isle McElroy: Even if it is just like a one night stand fling, I want to know how these two, like, souls are connecting on this, in this moment. If it’s a long term relationship, I want to know how this event is part of a longer, or is a moment in their longer journey with each other. And I think it’s about, like, The best sex scenes are ones that bring in all of the curiosity and excitement and conflict from outside of the sex scene.

[00:33:16] Isle McElroy: Uh, ones that build entire worlds.

[00:33:18] Jess O’Reilly: Beautiful. I’m curious too if writing about sex changes the way you see sex in real life. Because I’m not a sex writer. I write about sex from a very boring perspective, but to weave a story is a different talent altogether.

[00:33:32] Isle McElroy: I… I think what it has taught me is just really, again, it’s, it takes a lot longer to write a sex scene than it does to have sex.

[00:33:43] Isle McElroy: So, I will say that When it comes to slowing down, and when it comes to asking questions, that is what writing a scene has helped me do because I need to think about, like, what does desire look like, what, what do people say to each other, what actually [00:34:00] is hot, what are the things that I’m fantasizing about, and writing a sex scene, or what are other people fantasizing about, and creating those scenes on the page, I think Allows me to fantasize when I’m with someone as well, right, like to allow myself to, like, if I’m with someone physically and I’m fantasizing about something that I want to continue doing with them, I might be able to, like, bring it up because I’m both really in the moment and being in that moment might allow me to sort of think of something else that I want to do, and that Kind of that to me seems like writing spontaneity and writing is so important to me So you you react to what is happening, right?

[00:34:39] Isle McElroy: So in writing a sex scene I am reacting to what the characters are doing when I’m with another person I’m reacting to what feels good in that moment and sex with someone might be completely different with the same person over a couple times doing it because we are reacting differently because we are different people on a different day and being really attuned to Reacting to your needs in the moment, I think, is important both for writing and for, like, sex in real life.

[00:35:08] Brandon Ware: I’m picturing, in the midst of having sex, being like, as a writer, Oh, my gosh, I got to stop. That was such a good line. I just thought of or something like that, you know, like that’s my next scene

[00:35:18] Isle McElroy: for above above the bed so I can always get things down right away.

[00:35:23] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, I think most people who work in this field.

[00:35:25] Jess O’Reilly: In the beginning when we were studying. It would happen because it was so new to us now. Like, you know, I’ve been working in this field for so long. I can definitely separate the two, but I do remember that when I first started studying, something would happen during sex. And I would think about how it related to what I was studying.

[00:35:40] Jess O’Reilly: That’s right. I wasn’t really taking notes on what you were doing, but I, I, what I’m hearing too, is there must be real value for lovers, for learning about yourself, um, seeing sex from different perspectives and writing like as a, not a therapeutic tool, but just as a personal tool. And I, it’s something I would have.

[00:35:57] Jess O’Reilly: For me, I don’t have that side of the brain. Oh, it doesn’t come [00:36:00] naturally to me. We all have that side and we can tap into it, but not something I would have considered, but something I’m definitely thinking about now. And I’m sure other folks can consider reading your work on the art of a sex scene. And I’ll put that in the, in the show notes as well.

[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: And highly encourage everyone to check out People Collide as well. Really a great read. And I’m holding on for the end because of course, I already have an idea that there’s a bit of an ending because I’ve read reviews of the work, but you are receiving great accolades. And I can see why absolutely so congrats and thank you so much for sharing, sharing your time and your insights and your personal insights with us today.

[00:36:35] Jess O’Reilly: Much appreciated.

[00:36:36] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure to be here.

[00:36:39] Jess O’Reilly: You know, it’s not often we do interviews with fiction authors, but I was really interesting because I was really enthralled with this novel. I am really enthralled with it. And I took a lot away from this conversation, you know, messaging around intimacy and that there’s as much intimacy and not knowing as knowing.

[00:36:57] Jess O’Reilly: In some cases, and I think there’s something to sit there with, something to sit with there for me and even for some of the programming that I do, it definitely made me question some of the ways I approach intimacy and intimacy building and how there can be multiple approaches. I also think about, you know, embodiment and how it is rooted in trust and slowing down and reconditioning ourselves to move away from expectations.

[00:37:20] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a big one.

[00:37:21] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, for me, that, that was, that really resonated, the idea of, forget what society tells you you should and shouldn’t like. What do you like? And listen to yourself. Or listen to myself.

[00:37:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and tuning into your body. I feel like I’ve been tuned out lately. Not specifically around sex, but it’s absolutely seeping into sex.

[00:37:39] Jess O’Reilly: And I’ll leave it at that. And also, I was thinking about shedding expectations. Mm hmm. About our bodies. Like, we have so many expectations about what it’s supposed to be, how it’s supposed to react, how it’s supposed to look, what we’re supposed to feel, what we’re supposed to enjoy. And when we think about expectations, so many of them are the ones that uphold shame.

[00:37:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I, I really am sitting with that as [00:38:00] well. And then of course, the really important messaging around trusting others when it comes to their experience.

[00:38:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I agree with all points.

[00:38:07] Jess O’Reilly: All right, we’re gonna leave it at that. Thanks so much for listening, folks. And of course, you can check out People Collide wherever books are sold.

You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.

Jess & Brandon discuss these topics and more while exploring specific strategies for dealing with burnout in – the context of personal relationships. Check out the transcript below, and be sure to click here to learn more about the upcoming Temptation Cruise departing from Miami in February 2024.

And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 342

Managing Burnout In Relationships: Conservation of Resource Theory

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Mr. Brandon Ware, how you feeling today?

[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: I’m good. I’m good. I’m a little bit tired. I’m good.

[00:00:19] Jess O’Reilly: A little bit worn out.

[00:00:20] Brandon Ware: Just, just a touch.

[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: This is what I’m hearing across the board.

[00:00:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I hear it from a lot of people these days.

[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: I didn’t even prep you for it. I’m like, if I ask how you’re doing, I know you’re going to say you’re a little worn out because it seems like everybody’s feeling that way. You know, I’m hearing from friends who describe their state as frozen.

[00:00:36] Brandon Ware: I haven’t heard frozen before.

[00:00:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Actually two different friends last week said that they feel frozen. Like they don’t even feel like replying in our group texts. They don’t even feel like talking about what’s going on in the world because folks are feeling exhausted and sad. And I think there’s a sense of. Hopelessness around some of the, the big issues and power and the way things are shifting and seeing how, you know, even economies are, are shifting so that it’s making it harder for people to live.

[00:01:05] Brandon Ware: I thought you were going to make reference to, so the feeling numbness, but also the inability to move, is that what you’re saying? So it’s kind of twofold.

[00:01:12] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Cause we think about fight. Or flight, freeze is another response, fawn is another response, but we’re not talking about that today. I want to talk about burnout.

[00:01:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I think most folks have heard me talk about the bulk of my work is this marriage as a business program, where I take business models and adapt them to relationships for business leaders. And that’s my favorite part of my job. It’s super fun. And it’s really interesting because it’s not like every model can just be.

[00:01:36] Jess O’Reilly: Shifted into another realm perfectly, but I think they can be adapted and no model is perfect. No theory is perfect, especially when you’re looking at, you know, for example, organizational psychology. But I was thinking that it’d be interesting to apply this to burnout today because it seems to be the theme in all the private messages I’m reading and in my friend groups right now.

[00:01:51] Jess O’Reilly: And yeah, I was thinking about applying. some theories to burnout today with a lens of an organizational psychology theory, conservation of resources, which I know you’re familiar [00:02:00] with. Yes, I am. Studying organizational psych. And I was thinking that we could talk briefly about signs of burnout, uh, the conservation of resource theory more generally, and then apply it to relationships.

[00:02:09] Jess O’Reilly: And then of course, end with some strategies and solutions.

[00:02:13] Brandon Ware: Sounds like a plan. Where do we begin?

[00:02:14] Jess O’Reilly: Well, we begin actually with our sponsor, Temptation Cruise. And I’m actually very, very excited because I just got the contract backed yesterday and I’m heading for the very first time on the Temptation Cruise.

[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: So this is the sibling cruise to the Desire Cruise and it’s an erotic, naughty, wild, fun, laid back, no pressure, very celebratory. party on the seas. We start in Miami, we head out into the Caribbean, into the Bahamas, into Cozumel, and it’s February 19th to 24th. So it’s kind of creeping up on us. And it’s open to absolutely everyone.

[00:02:49] Jess O’Reilly: So you can come on your own, you can come with three others, you can come as a couple, you can come as you are. And it’s for people of all genders, all sexual orientations. And it’s a big party on the seas and they, you know, there’s topless sections, there’s clothing optional sections, there’s a playroom and it’s my very first time hosting workshops on this ship.

[00:03:07] Jess O’Reilly: So I’m pretty excited.

[00:03:08] Brandon Ware: I think the only thing you have to do is. People are here to come and party.

[00:03:11] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. I would say it’s a, it’s more of a party, but you can really make it what you want. Of course you can get off at the, at the various cruise ports. Sorry.

[00:03:20] Brandon Ware: You know, I’m just sitting here waiting for all of these.

[00:03:22] Jess O’Reilly: Everybody with the language of like, get off and come as you are. And I think after 20 years of this, I’m. I’m so over it, the puns, the puns. Yeah. So yes, speaking of burnout, but do check out the temptation cruise. I’m going to link my link in the, in the show notes and I’ll put it in my IG as well, because if you are checking it out, I would really appreciate it.

[00:03:41] Jess O’Reilly: If you’d click on my link so they know that you heard about it here. It’s going to be a wild time. So back to burnout, you know, burnout, obviously everything occurs along a spectrum. So when we talk about burnout, you’re generally referring to emotional, mental, physical exhaustion that usually results from prolonged excessive stress, [00:04:00] overwork, combination of factors, and they can be individual, they can be social, they can be socio cultural, they can be political, economical, and, you know, it affects I want to talk about how burnout impacts relationships of all kinds, so not just intimate relationships.

[00:04:20] Jess O’Reilly: And I think a big one is that when you’re burnt out, your emotional capacity is just diminished and it can feel like you have no or very little emotional energy. And it can, what that means is it can be really challenging to be available and supportive. in relationships. And so you may, for example, for example, for example, become emotionally distant.

[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, you might find that you’re really irritable, which of course strains connections with partners, with friends. I’ve definitely noticed that when again, burnout being along a spectrum, when I feel more burned out, I don’t really want to talk to people. Like I don’t want to have individual conversations. I don’t mind big group things because it feels less intimate, but that reduced emotional availability really.

[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: Affects relationships. And of course, another piece of that is increased conflict. Right? So heighten stress levels, decrease tolerance for frustration. It makes us more prone to snapping, to arguments, to conflicts with partners, with family, with friends, with coworkers, of course. And then we might find ourselves, and this sort of goes to a reduced emotional availability, but neglecting relationships, like we might prioritize other things over relationships because the emotional energy that perhaps goes into.

[00:05:29] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe a job that people aren’t particularly passionate about or going to the gym or other things doesn’t, that don’t require as much emotional focus can feel easier. So there, it’s not just a neglect. It can be avoidance. Usually there’s a decrease in, in intimacy, right? And I think people use, you know, intimacy as euphemism for sex, but I just mean, it can be physical, it can be emotional, it can be relational, it can be even practical.

[00:05:51] Jess O’Reilly: Again, you can just feel too drained or stressed to even. Engage in things that feel affectionate or real. I know for me that I want to [00:06:00] avoid intimacy because intimacy, it feels vulnerable and I don’t always have the energy to break down. Right. I don’t really always feel like being honest when I’m burned out.

[00:06:07] Jess O’Reilly: Like I’d rather just distract myself with movement, with work, with other things that don’t feel so vulnerable.

[00:06:14] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree. I think I do the same where it’s just, it’s easier to focus in on something that I don’t have to think about. Rather than investing the emotional energy into the relationship without also recognizing that the relationship can be one of the sources that picks me up.

[00:06:28] Jess O’Reilly: Resource deposit, which we’re going to get to with the conservation of resource theory. You’ll also often see communication breakdowns, right? Again, if I’m burnt out, everything irritates me. You speak and I’m irritated. You, you know what I mean? Social withdrawal more generally, right? A lot of people will just feel burned out by being around people and a loss of interest.

[00:06:47] Jess O’Reilly: In relational activities that were generally enjoyable in the past. Right. So I may not really take the pleasure from spending time with loved ones. And this of course results in a lack of engagement and enthusiasm. And then, you know, other people pick up on it and they respond accordingly. But that loss of interest, sometimes we’ll read it as, well, it doesn’t even feel good to, I don’t know, snuggle anymore.

[00:07:08] Jess O’Reilly: It doesn’t even feel good to have sex anymore, or it doesn’t even feel good. to sit in silence with you and just enjoy each other’s company anymore and then we’ll read that as a barometer of the relationship because we’re neglecting the fact that it’s overall burnout.

[00:07:22] Brandon Ware: Hmm. Does the conservation of resource theory, I don’t think that they necessarily look at They look at burnout from that emotional exhaustion imbalance perspective.

[00:07:31] Brandon Ware: Do they talk a little bit at all about, so in this, one of the other studies that I was reading, they talked about one of the elements being depersonalization, which it sounds like what you’re referencing, but it’s specific to the workplace. So what they say is that. Um, there’s depersonalization is where you become, uh, you just don’t care.

[00:07:48] Brandon Ware: You don’t care about the relationship that you have with a colleague. You don’t care about what it is you’re doing. And I could be paraphrasing this not quite as effectively, but it’s just that lack of, um, I don’t even want to call it civility, but it’s just, um, you just don’t [00:08:00] care.

[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Ambivalence.

[00:08:01] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:08:01] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we see that in relationships. And again, I guess a lot, many of us will use our primary relationships. So intimate relationships, marriage as the barometer of our. Happiness in life. And so we’ll see, but we’ll also say if I’m unhappy in this relationship, it must be the relationship, but sometimes I’m unhappy in life.

[00:08:20] Jess O’Reilly: So similarly, I can assume that I’m burned out by the relationship or in the relationship when in fact, I’m bringing burnout to the relationship and. Always there’s some crossover because everything in life depletes resources and everything in life has the potential to enhance resources. Again, we’re going to get to the theory in just a moment, but I think a big question that’s sort of coming up for me right now as I’m talking through some of the signs of burnout and how they play out in relationships is how do you differentiate between whether or not it’s a relational issue on account of burnout?

[00:08:49] Jess O’Reilly: Or it’s a relational burnout that’s showing up in the relationship. And I, I think that we’re, we’re capable of kind of looking at our situations. And I think as I share some of the tools and get into the theory, you’ll probably able to make that determination. And again, nothing happens in a vacuum. So, you know, if.

[00:09:05] Jess O’Reilly: If a relationship feels as though it’s all about burnout right now, it’s probably playing some role, but I, again, I think people do scapegoat primary relationships in a culture that puts marriage and intimate relationships at the center of kind of everything we tell, we tell ourselves that it’s supposed to be.

[00:09:23] Jess O’Reilly: The end all be all that it’s the richest source of love and happiness and fulfillment and care. And it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. Friendships can play similar roles. Other family relationships can play similar roles and other parts of your life can also lead to fulfillment. So that loss of interest I think does align with what you’re talking about in terms of depersonalization.

[00:09:42] Jess O’Reilly: We also see resentment. Right. So resentment is something that will start to come up when we’re burned out. And if we think about burnout, and I wanted to apply it in the lens, along the lens of the conservation of resource theory, I think we have to kind of define what that is. So it’s a theory developed by Hobful.

[00:09:58] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s from the eighties [00:10:00] and it’s a stress and resource based theory that focuses on how we. Maintain, protect, acquire valuable resources to promote our own well being and cope with stressors. So it suggests that we are motivated to conserve our resources and it also categorizes resources into four types.

[00:10:22] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying this is perfect, but I just want to share some background. So they divide it into object resources, condition resources, It’s energy resources and cultural resources. So object are more material resources like financial well being and physical health. Condition resources are more personal characteristics like self efficacy, um, self esteem, social support networks, and there’s some crossover here too.

[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: Energy resources, which I’m very interested in, in the context of burnout, are really the energy that we have. That is depleted by stressors and then cultural resources are, you know, knowledge and skills and values and strategies that we’re going to talk about to help navigate challenges. So the theory is that we experience stress when there is a threat to these resources and this stress can trigger.

[00:11:12] Jess O’Reilly: I think it can be applied to understand how we manage and protect both individual and shared resources so that we have a fulfilling partnership. And so I’m kind of not reaching here, but bridging these 2 pieces together. And I think it’s helpful because conservation of research theory is a framework that looks at how we prioritize and protect our resources in response to stressors.

[00:11:40] Jess O’Reilly: And I think it applies to relationships to really explain how resource management affects our overall well being as individuals and within relationships. Does that make sense?

[00:11:50] Brandon Ware: Yeah. So when I get stressed, there’s an imbalance. I’ve got these resources that make me feel good. I want to keep them. I don’t want to give them up, but I need to use them to offset the [00:12:00] stress.

[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: So the, so the question is in the relationship, I guess, you’re saying, what are those resources and how are we keeping them or how are we adding to them to make sure that we don’t have that imbalance?

[00:12:09] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m really interested, and I haven’t done any research on this, maybe I will, around, I’m really interested in how conservation of resource applies across different cultures and the way we see community because psychology can be highly, highly individualistic or maybe look at systems, but not always at community and collectivism.

[00:12:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, definitely. I was just thinking because earlier you talked about how the relationship was where people express burnout, right? And what I was thinking at the time was, is that also because we’re not able to really express ourselves in other realms, right? Like you can’t express burnout in the office because it’s going to adversely impact you.

[00:12:45] Brandon Ware: Are you comfortable saying to your friends that you’re burnt out because are they going to want to be around you? So you end up saying that you’re burnt out to your partner. Right. And that may not necessarily be the source of where the burnout is coming. And I’m, I’m thinking of all of these things because recently within the last few months, I have felt burnt out.

[00:13:02] Brandon Ware: Like I have felt that all of these things that you’re talking about. And when I reflect back, I’m like, I don’t think the relationship is where I felt burnt out. I think it was all of the other things. It was just that. I’m around you and at one point you break, something happens, you get frustrated, you get irritated and I’m with you and that’s where the frustration comes out.

[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s a place where you can safely express how you’re feeling.

[00:13:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us have many places and many people with whom we can discuss those things. And some of us have. fewer. I definitely, I mean, a dynamic I see, and I’m sure, you know, we’ve talked about before, is that women tend to have multiple sources of support and oftentimes men don’t.

[00:13:44] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, I would agree with that wholeheartedly.

[00:13:46] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that as soon as you become aware of that. It’s your job to say, okay, do I want to put all of this emotional load on my partner? Where else can I address it? So, you know, I think what you’re describing really, really [00:14:00] makes sense. So if we think about the conservation of resource theory in terms of how it applies in relationships, I think we should start there and then we can get to the practical and the takeaway.

[00:14:08] Jess O’Reilly: So I was thinking about, so we’ve got resource investment and depletion and exchange and enhancement. And preservation. And to me, I think about how that affects stress and conflict and what our adaptive strategies look like, and then how we balance those resources. So that’s a lot of, you know, talk. So this is what I’m thinking.

[00:14:25] Jess O’Reilly: So when we think about resource investment in relationships, we invest various resources. So we invest time. Um, energy, emotional support, financial resources into the relationship. And the theory is that we’re motivated to conserve these investments to ensure the stability of the relationship. So I think it applies pretty clearly there.

[00:14:42] Jess O’Reilly: On the depletion side, relationships do require some investment. And I think that’s not something everybody agrees upon, but I think we’re getting there. More people would agree on that now. But we all experience resource depletion. Um, in other realms, from demands of work, from children, from other responsibilities.

[00:14:58] Jess O’Reilly: And conservation of resource theory highlights the importance of managing and replenishing these resources to prevent burnout and relationship dissatisfaction. And I promise we’ll get into what this actually looks like, but I think it’s important to go through the theory. And then I think about resource exchange.

[00:15:14] Jess O’Reilly: So successful relationships. involve an exchange of resources, right? As I said, we provide emotional support, companionship, assistance in various, you know, silos of life. And I think that the theory really emphasizes the importance of having some sort of balanced exchange of resources. Mm hmm. And so if there isn’t an exchange and it’s one way, obviously there’s going to be an imbalance in the relationship.

[00:15:37] Jess O’Reilly: And we can continue to talk about this, but I see this in work relationships. I see this in friendships. I think that there’s more of an understanding that a relationship between intimate partners ought to be somewhat balanced, but I don’t think we all recognize imbalances in other adult relationships.

[00:15:54] Jess O’Reilly: Even for example, parent child.

[00:15:55] Brandon Ware: Mm hmm.

[00:15:56] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Uh, we might have these dynamics where we, [00:16:00] and I’m not talking about a parent child dynamic in an intimate relationship, I mean literal caregiver, adult child, so we’re adults now. And what are our expectations of our parents? And then how do we respond when their needs shift?

[00:16:12] Jess O’Reilly: So resource exchange applies kind of across the board. Similarly, in work relationships, I hear so many, oh, so many of the women leaders. I work with, talk about the fact that they just feel like everybody’s sucking the life out of them. Like they’re expected to give so much. And I hear this specifically from women without kids, the idea that if they’re in the workplace, they, they don’t need to leave.

[00:16:33] Jess O’Reilly: They can stay later for the, for the meeting. Cause they don’t have a kid to pick up.

[00:16:36] Brandon Ware: They don’t, they don’t have anything to do.

[00:16:37] Jess O’Reilly: And so that, that exchange piece is really important in terms of balance. And then if we move on to other parts of the theory, and these aren’t necessarily written into the theory, but this is what I extrapolate from it.

[00:16:49] Jess O’Reilly: Enhancement. So in a, in a relationship you work together to enhance one another’s resources. So I might support your something to do with career or other part of self growth at a given point in time or across the lifespan of the relationship. And it’s a collaborative effort to strengthen the relationship and make it more satisfying.

[00:17:08] Jess O’Reilly: So there has to be that enhancement where it’s not just about how do I benefit from this. And I think that ties in with love, right? People sometimes when, especially 10 years ago, cause nobody was talking about this. They’re like, you’re taking this dry organizational. Psych theory and applying it to a marriage and it’s not the same and I’m not saying it’s the same.

[00:17:25] Jess O’Reilly: Of course It’s modified by the fact that marriages intimate relationships tend to be more intense in some ways than a work relationship But I think it’s still really important that we think about how we enhance one another’s resources in the workplace in Friendships even when you think about small things You might call it, for example, deposits and withdrawals, even when you go to the coffee shop and like, you bring some energy into it or you’re kind to, you know, the barista or.

[00:17:52] Brandon Ware: So silly, but it’s so, it’s so true when you make the effort, even if you feel uncomfortable, just be like, Hey, how are you today?

[00:17:58] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:17:59] Brandon Ware: How’s it going?

[00:17:59] Jess O’Reilly: You [00:18:00] know, there’s, I’m in this girls love travel group on Facebook.

[00:18:02] Brandon Ware: Oh no, here we go.

[00:18:03] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know if I’m even supposed to name it, but one of the conversations, I think this is okay to say, it’s a huge group, but sometimes they’ll talk about gifts they bring for the flight attendants for the flight crew and people get mad.

[00:18:13] Jess O’Reilly: People are like, they’re just doing their job. You don’t need to bring. So I always, if I can, I always bring something for the flight crew. Especially when I think about these short turnaround flights that are intense, you know, flight crew, at least in Canada, as I understand it, they’re not even paid till the door closes on the aircraft.

[00:18:28] Brandon Ware: And I think it’s also important. You’re not talking about bringing huge gifts. It could just be pastries or some small chocolates or of gold. No.

[00:18:35] Jess O’Reilly: Not the chocolate, the actual gold.

[00:18:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:18:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. For example, when we’re in, when we go through Jamaica, I always just pick them up little rum bar bottles on the way out or a treat from Super overpriced Jamaican Starbucks or something like that, whatever I can carry.

[00:18:49] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s not, it’s just something, it’s like a surprise. And I guess it’s becoming more common. So maybe it’s less of a surprise, but I look at that as a resource enhancement, even for a stranger. Anyhow, and then, okay, what have I not covered? Oh, preservation. So resource preservation. So these are all the ways that we kind of deal with resources and usually in terms of work stress.

[00:19:06] Jess O’Reilly: But I think that in relationships we’re motivated to preserve our individual resources as well. So I’m not talking about just the shared resources, but. my identity, my autonomy, my self efficacy. And I think that, again, this comes back to balance. How do we balance individual resources, coupled resources?

[00:19:24] Jess O’Reilly: And I think both are really important for a happy relationship because we lose it when we get in relationships. It was singles day last weekend. And so I did an interview around the benefits of being single and was looking into the data around how singles tend to be. Yeah. More self determined. Um, they have higher self efficacy.

[00:19:39] Jess O’Reilly: They have broader social support networks. They’re more open to new relationships and we lose that. I remember reading older research around the fact that our friend group shrinks when we get into a relationship, again, conservation of resources. We have so much time, so much energy, but I think that couples.

[00:19:56] Jess O’Reilly: We can get into our little bubbles.

[00:19:58] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think [00:20:00] that there is anyway, I agree with everything that you’re saying. I think that all the things, these things are really interesting to think about within the context of your relationship in terms of like, what is, what constitutes a resource, and you also said something that I thought was interesting, the idea of the resource exchange, but I think both.

[00:20:15] Brandon Ware: People in the relationship need to understand the exchange. Otherwise, could it not be, become a drain on the person who’s investing those exchanges into their other, into their partner without it being reciprocated? And I feel like that, that two way street of the exchange is what builds upon that, that as a resource.

[00:20:33] Brandon Ware: And when it becomes a one, one lane street, it becomes yet another. Source of depletion of resource.

[00:20:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and you’re making me think about how our identity informs our willingness to give and share versus take and Expectations even when we think about it in terms of like the domestic scenario and hetero relationships What’s expected of you because you’re a woman because you’re a man and I know that we’re breaking down those barriers but the data still shows that we fall back into those rules, especially after having kids and so when I think about Some of the women that I’m working with, so these are all leaders, they all run large companies, and they just feel like everybody’s taking, like everybody’s asking.

[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: And part of that is sociocultural. Part of it has been ingrained in them, so they just keep giving and giving and giving. And then we build resentment. So this is why, and I promise I’m going to get to the the real take home, I like this theory applied to burnout because it makes it quantitative and finite.

[00:21:29] Jess O’Reilly: Just to finish off some of the other pieces of the theory and how it can be applied to burnout in relationships, I think it’s again important to note that when our resources are depleted, when they’re threatened, It tends to lead to more stress and conflict in relationships. And some of us even engage in conflict to protect our resources or as a way to cope with the stress.

[00:21:48] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s a difficult thing to recognize. Uh, and this, this only is a cycle where it further depletes the resources, right? I mean, it’s, it’s pretty simple where I have a bad day at work. I can’t take it out on my team. [00:22:00] I feel like I have to be this positive leader in light of all the things that are happening around me.

[00:22:05] Jess O’Reilly: And I come home and I’ve got this buildup. And so you take it out on your kid or you take it out on your, and I don’t mean, you know, you yell at them, but you don’t have patience for them or you don’t have the energy for them. And I want to talk about one of those dynamics in a moment, just to finish this off.

[00:22:17] Jess O’Reilly: So in relationships. According to conservation of resource theory, we also employ adaptive strategies to protect our resources. So I think that if you go back and listen to previous podcasts, you’ll hear many of these adaptive strategies. Like for example, the relationship check in, right? That can help us to conserve resources and to balance resources because the balancing kind of interplays with all of these, these elements.

[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: We always are balancing individual and shared resources as we adapt. To life stages and changing circumstances. So it will never be 50, 50 at a given moment in time. And actually this topic, I want to do a whole episode on resource balancing because it’s so broad, it’s time, it’s attention, it’s energy, it’s supporting goals, it’s adaptation, and it’s equity across interactions and equity, I think across, I don’t know how to say it.

[00:23:06] Jess O’Reilly: I guess the relationship or the family ecosystem. So it’s a huge one. I’m really excited about this topic. I have some, I feel like I wanted to make this into six parts, but I know folks want their take home. And so here’s what we know. We know that couples who effectively manage, conserve, share resources are more likely to have long term satisfaction and stability in the relationship.

[00:23:26] Jess O’Reilly: And so I think that the theory really helps to underscore the importance of how we balance these resources as a key factor in the relationship, but also in terms of either preventing. Or addressing or solving burnout because burnout doesn’t really go away on its own.

[00:23:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And I think as you’re mentioning this, the importance I could imagine of putting what you deem a resource in writing to have a conversation about that with your partner, because when I can say getting physical activity to me is a resource.

[00:23:57] Brandon Ware: It’s something that makes me feel good, even in [00:24:00] the moment when I feel like crap when I’m doing it, but when I leave the gym or when I leave, whatever it is I’m doing, I feel better after

[00:24:07] Jess O’Reilly: that really makes me think of a dynamic that I see all the time around. Um, around somebody wanting to invest time in something and whether or not their partner can support it.

[00:24:17] Jess O’Reilly: I, we’re actually going to maybe get to that right, right now.

[00:24:19] Brandon Ware: Oh, okay. Let’s do it.

[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: I think all that being said, I wanted to give you some theory radical background, but I also want to talk about how it looks in practical terms, right? How do we take theory and put it into practice to deal with burnout or prevent burnout, but also to have happier relationships more generally.

[00:24:33] Jess O’Reilly: And I think the, the too long didn’t read answer. Like the short answer is we have to manage resources. including time, energy, and emotional support to prevent depletion and burnout in relationships, and we need to build back up those resources. So I have kind of a framework, some approaches to do that, and the first begins with resource depletion and enhancement, and it actually begins with yourself, so I think that a great place to start.

[00:24:59] Jess O’Reilly: is to really think about taking care of yourself first and prioritizing and making space for your partner to do the same. So I think it has to begin at the individual level because yes, there are shared resources, but I think most of our resources are individual to begin with. And then they go to partnerships and community.

[00:25:16] Jess O’Reilly: And, but I think that we have to look at ourselves and that might involve community by the way. So what this means, okay. And I’ve been saying this for years. You have to show up to the relationship with the resources you need to be a good partner. I don’t mean every single day. I don’t mean 50 50, but what I mean is that you need to make adjustments in your life so that you have resources to offer to the relationship that might mean that you need to work less.

[00:25:40] Jess O’Reilly: It might mean that you need to take care of yourself more. Maybe that means going to the gym or going to a class or doing things that leave you feel energized. It might mean adjusting your schedule when you can. Okay. I understand that people’s life circumstances are different, but I’m speaking from somebody that, you know, I only deal with.

[00:25:57] Jess O’Reilly: Leaders. Okay. They are not folks [00:26:00] who have to work three jobs to survive because that is a different situation. So that might mean that you, you choose to work less. It might mean that you adjust your schedule, you go to therapy, or you don’t go to therapy if it drains you. Or you do things that feel therapeutic even if they’re not therapy.

[00:26:15] Jess O’Reilly: So… If you do these things, you can show up with energy for your relationship, right? And I think you have to ask yourself, do I show up with the resources I need for this relationship? Or do I prioritize putting those resources elsewhere? Let me say that again. Cause I, I think, you know what I said? I think, you know what I said?

[00:26:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. So do you show up with the resources needed for the relationship or are you spending them elsewhere? And I see this in the couples I work with. And this is the dynamic. I think I was thinking of when you brought up the gym, they’ll say, I don’t have the energy to deal with this and they’ll say crap or kids or questions or whatever when I get home and they say don’t they know how demanding My job is and this of course makes me think of jobs demands resource theory But that’s more of an organizational question and listen, it’s okay for that to happen at times.

[00:27:01] Jess O’Reilly: It’s okay You’re launching new project you come home exhausted and you know, you’re not your best self fine But when it becomes the norm and not the exception it will Adversely affect your relationships with your partner, with your kids, with your friends, with your communities. Because, and this is to me the most important piece, resources like time, energy, and emotional capacity are finite.

[00:27:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. Boom. You have to choose where you use them. And if you don’t want to dedicate them to your relationship, there will be costs in that relationship, marriage or otherwise. And I’m actually kind of working on this. This exercise around managing this, but I’m not ready to go into it yet because I’m fine tuning it.

[00:27:41] Jess O’Reilly: But the challenge here that I see is that everyone says they don’t have time, right? Or they’re resentful or they’re resistant to their partner taking time for themselves. But if we apply contribution of resource theory, we know that anything that fills our cup means that we have more to bring to the relationship.

[00:27:56] Jess O’Reilly: Anything that drains our cup, of course, means we have less. So [00:28:00] this is the dynamic. If your partner works a lot and as soon as they come home, You want their attention. You want their love. You want their energy. And you get frustrated because, I don’t know, they want to go for a run. Or they want to read a book.

[00:28:10] Jess O’Reilly: Or they want to sit in peace for 15 minutes. Okay, I’m going to get to the other side because there’s always, you know, two sides. I, I want you to think about, okay, so they come home, they seem exhausted, they’re depleted. Resources are low, and they maybe are immediately frustrated with you because you want something from them that they don’t have the resources to give.

[00:28:28] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious on your side, from a relational perspective, what can you do to make more space for them to build back up their resources? Can you put some of these needs on hold for 15 minutes? Maybe you can’t, okay? Like, there are circumstances when you can’t.

[00:28:40] Brandon Ware: Of course, there are always circumstances, but…

[00:28:41] Jess O’Reilly: And then the other side is for the partner who comes home exhausted and doesn’t want to deal with… Kids or questions or decisions or affection or taking care of anyone because you’re so exhausted from taking care of everything at work that you just need some time to take care of yourself for a moment.

[00:28:56] Jess O’Reilly: What can you do differently? What can you do to conserve or build resources during the day so that you don’t regularly show up like that, right? It sort of takes two to tango. And so for the first partner, who’s like. You know, I’m taking care of the kids all day or I’m working all day. Plus I’m taking care of the kids and you walk in the door and you want to go for a run.

[00:29:13] Jess O’Reilly: Because like Brandon said, it’s how we build back up his resources. I see their perspective. I see both perspectives and this, this is not like a right, wrong. One of you needs to do more. One of you needs to do less, but this is a dynamic that I see all the time. And if you care about yourself and care about your family, probably more than you care about your work, although you don’t show it, I think that the conservation of resource theory reminds us that we have to build and utilize these resources.

[00:29:37] Jess O’Reilly: Intentionally, we can’t let them run away on things that don’t matter or that matter less. And so, yes, you want to go for a run because it clears your head after work, but maybe I’m managing this household. And also, by the way, I work, whether it’s out of the home or in the home. And so I think that if we can look at it as a resource issue, rather than a.

[00:29:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:30:00] Personal issue or relational issue, we can say, okay, we’ve got these many resources, or this is how we supplement or enhance resources. This is how we balance resources. This is how we deplete resources. And so I think it is on an individual level and a partnered level and a community level. Of course, like we haven’t, this is one of the things that conservation resource theory leaves out is what should we be doing at community levels?

[00:30:22] Jess O’Reilly: To make sure that people have resources just to be okay. Whether that’s the first set, which financial people need to be able to survive, people need to be able to pay rent. Yeah, I agree. Right. We were in a city right now where there are so many unoccupied movements, not movements, um, units. There are so many unoccupied units and there’s a movement called Ocupaz where people are moving into these units because they have nowhere to go.

[00:30:46] Jess O’Reilly: They can’t survive. And so. That’s not for me to solve. Um, although I want to be a part of the solution voting in a way that can support people being able to survive, but we have to look at this at a global community level and, you know, organizational psychology is less concerned with that and more concerned with profit.

[00:31:03] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s where some of these theories are a great starting point, but fall short. But I, to this dynamic, I, what I say is. If you’re investing in yourself to boost your resources first, it’s a way of saying, yeah, I’m going to prioritize self care, but I think it’s helpful to think about resources as quantifiable, right?

[00:31:20] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ve got this much resources. Where do I want to dedicate them? And maybe even ask yourself, does my partner deserve these really resources? I mean, that’s rhetoric. Of course, it’s a reminder to yourself. Do I want to give some of these resources to my kids or do I want to come home exhausted every night?

[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: And yes, Sometimes that happens, especially for my clients. They’re launching a new brand. They’re launching a new project. There’s a week or two or a month where things are just off the charts. That’s a decision you’re making, but is that how you want to live your life? And here’s what I hear from these folks and why I’m seeing so many folks decide to leave these gigs or not retire early, but shift you think it’s a month and you think it’s three months and you think it’s a year and four years goes by four or [00:32:00] nine years.

[00:32:00] Jess O’Reilly: And honestly, I feel brought to tears because I’m thinking about the stories and I’m thinking about this dynamic where we think, Oh, my partner’s selfish. They come home and they just want to go for a run. Meanwhile, I have to wrangle these kids. I have to wrangle dinner. I have to do all this. But really what it is is their resources are depleted.

[00:32:16] Jess O’Reilly: And so what can you do to support them and what can they do to support themselves? Does that make sense? Did I get away with that?

[00:32:21] Brandon Ware: No, I mean, it does.

[00:32:22] Jess O’Reilly: Went too far with all that?

[00:32:23] Brandon Ware: I don’t think you went too far. I think it, it, For me, it dawned on me the other day. It’s such a simple concept, but in order to move forward with something, you have to let go of something.

[00:32:30] Brandon Ware: And it’s such a simple concept that I’ve overlooked so many times. But if I want to give to you, I have to give up on something else. And I want to give to you using our relationship as an example, and I’m willing to give up. Some of that energy that I’m going to give to somebody else who I don’t want to say doesn’t matter, but it’s not as important.

[00:32:50] Jess O’Reilly: So, yeah, I hear what you’re saying. And when I think about it in the context, like I know what you’re saying, you’re not saying I need to give up the gym. You’re, I think what you’re saying is sometimes I give energy. to things that don’t matter. Sometimes I take, you take energy, all of us, with people who piss you off and you spend time reconciling that when you know what, it’s actually not worth it.

[00:33:11] Brandon Ware: No. And that’s really what it was making reference to. It wasn’t about taking away in this context from something that added to my life satisfaction. It actually, I was thinking about taking away from someone or something that wasn’t as important. And I could dedicate less time to that and more time to this.

[00:33:30] Brandon Ware: So in this example, let’s just say our relationship in some way. I come home and you know what? Because I didn’t spend that extra 15 or 20 minutes stressing about that person or that thing. I can give a bit more energy to this. I can come home and before I walk through the door, I can put a smile on my face and be like, how was your day?

[00:33:46] Brandon Ware: What can I do to help you right now? You know what? Why don’t you take 15 minutes and go and sit down? Why don’t you take 15 minutes or half an hour and go do something that. That’s going to add to your tank. And then when you take those 15, 20, 30 minutes and replenish your tank, [00:34:00] you’re going to come back half an hour later to this relationship in a better headspace.

[00:34:04] Brandon Ware: And likely if it’s like how I feel willing to give more back to your partner. So it’s this cycle of giving and taking and the exchange you referenced before, where it’s like you came in the door. I’ve got the kids, I’ve got dinner ready to go, or I’m, I’m in the midst of everything, which would be a gong show if I was preparing dinner, just as a side note.

[00:34:23] Brandon Ware: But you know, I’m prepping dinner and then you come in and you’re like, you know what, let me take over here for 15 or 20 minutes and then boom, I’m, I’m energized.

[00:34:30] Jess O’Reilly: You’re really describing teamwork, but what gets in the way of this is resentment. when one partner perceives that they’re doing more, right?

[00:34:38] Jess O’Reilly: When, and I think that, you know, we have research showing that it’s not about the division of labor. It’s about the perceived division of labor. So whether I do more or not, it doesn’t matter if I perceive myself as doing more. And so I think that if we think about. You know, making a list or helping to understand or asking myself why I do more or why I think I do more.

[00:34:56] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes we don’t realize how much our partners do, which was a lesson that came out of the pandemic from. So with the clients I was working with, usually there’s a partner who runs a business and travels a lot and is away from the home more than the other usually. Okay. And usually that is the guy. And so what a lot of these guys said was I had no clue what it took for her to take care of all this stuff.

[00:35:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like I had no clue. And then the flip side was I didn’t realize what their day was like with work, you know, putting out fires. And again, there are exceptions and it’s not always along gendered lines, but there’s, I think, an appreciation for what the other. Does, that’s so important. And maybe making that inherent, like not having to see that because we do have a, you know, we have a bias towards ourselves where we think that we’re doing more than other people.

[00:35:39] Jess O’Reilly: We think that our intentions are better than other people’s intentions. And so I think that this theory is one way to depersonalize and just say, okay, we’ve got this many resources. How do we make this work? It’s not your fault. It’s not my fault. It’s not that you’re a selfish jerk who wants to go for a run.

[00:35:52] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not that, you know, I’m overwhelmed. It’s that this is what we’re dealing with. Okay. We have to move on. So. Yeah. I think really beginning with [00:36:00] taking care of yourself first and thinking about how you want to dedicate your resources. And I think the more you’re talking, Brandon, the more I’m realizing that this exercise I’ve come up with, this tool is kind of neat and simple.

[00:36:09] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. It’s not rocket science. Next is really resource preservation. So setting boundaries between other sources of resource depletion and your marriage or relationships or family. Okay. And so the primary source of resource drain for my clients is always work. And some of them set boundaries and some of them do not.

[00:36:25] Jess O’Reilly: And the outcomes are clear. Those who have clear boundaries fare better in their relationships, but also when it comes to their overall mental and physical health. And so there are so many ways this could look, this could be as simple as. Taking real time off without checking emails, and that’s really hard for a lot of people who run companies.

[00:36:42] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a lot, really hard for a lot of employees because of the pressure that companies put on them, leaving the phone out of the bedroom and family spaces, not having it at the dinner table. It sounds silly, but when you sit down for dinner again, oh my gosh, there’s so much fascinating research around families and relationships, families who sit down.

[00:36:58] Jess O’Reilly: And have dinner and have conversations are putting deposits in their resource bank, right? In terms of bonding, understanding, care, compassion, all of these things, you know, maybe setting alarms to well, first you have to set the boundaries and then you have to set the alarms around when you’re going to connect and when you’re not, because most of us wake up and reach our phones, our phones are our first and last things.

[00:37:18] Jess O’Reilly: We deal with even as you’re dealing with each other or yourselves or your kids. And so is it possible, like for example, you know, I have clients who don’t check their phones for the first two hours of the day or the last two hours. And then I have clients who many, many, many clients who check their phones throughout the night, 3am, 4am, 5am, it doesn’t matter.

[00:37:35] Jess O’Reilly: And so you’re going to see different outcomes depending on how you set those boundaries. Another piece is just really clearly communicating. out of office time to staff, to teams, to board members, and we’re afraid to do that. I know I am. Like, I have, you know, contracts with different clients, and I’m a, you know, I, I can, I, I can take however much time off I want, or I can take no time off at all.

[00:37:55] Jess O’Reilly: But if I were to say, you know, there’s going to be this five day period where I’m not [00:38:00] answering press ops or things like that, I don’t want to do that too often because I’m afraid that I’ll, especially their Western clients, that I’ll be judged. With European clients, it’s okay, like I can say, it’s August and so I think that we need to think about how do we preserve our resources in terms of setting boundaries with other sources of resource drain.

[00:38:21] Jess O’Reilly: And then third, I think about resource exchange, like, how do we take care of each other? And we can only do that if we’ve taken care of one and two, how do we give and take? And the big thing around resource exchange that I think is missing is asking. This is the biggest learning for me. And I think it’s hard to apply because we’ve research.

[00:38:37] Jess O’Reilly: Showing that when you ask for help, you become more likable. It creates trust. It cements bonds in from like a one on one perspective. It’s disarming, right? So you’re not just telling your partner how you feel, but why you’re feeling it and how they can support you. Right? So if I come in and you’re busy taking care of things and I want to be left alone and you want me to pay attention to you and contribute to the household.

[00:39:01] Jess O’Reilly: I, maybe I say like, I’m exhausted. I had a hard day. Well, dude, yes, I’m exhausted. And I had a hard day too, is what you’re going to say. But if I say, listen, I really struggled with this today, would you mind? Or how would you feel? Yeah, very different, very different language. Yeah, so just asking for help when we need it.

[00:39:18] Jess O’Reilly: And what I see in relationships is a power play. We’re like, I’m not going to ask for help. Because if I ask, I acknowledge that you’re giving. Whereas what I do is I manipulate, I change, I complain, I grunt. I do whatever it is to get what I want from you. Everything except saying, baby, you know what I could really use right now?

[00:39:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right? And then I blow up. Like we, we get a little bit stubborn. That’s another thing we need to break. The other thing of course is, is resource enhancement. So if we’re thinking about burnout, we have to be able to recognize the signs of burnout in ourselves and our partners and just simply offer support.

[00:39:48] Jess O’Reilly: And sometimes it’s just listening to be us. Uh, what would I call it? I guess a resource enhancer. And then when we think of resource enhancement in other ways, we have to be doing that across the relationship, right? And this might [00:40:00] be spending time together, setting goals together, finding new ways to connect, finding ways to build intimacy and excitement and passion because we know that when we have this strong social tie, it’s a buffer.

[00:40:14] Jess O’Reilly: Against burnout, right? We know that social support is a buffer against burnout, and so we have to make that happen. It doesn’t happen on its own. We have to make the time to spend quality time together. However, however you define it and engage in activities or conversations that bring us closer and feel good because yes, quality time also helps to replenish emotional resources.

[00:40:35] Jess O’Reilly: And I think I already talked a little bit about resource protection in terms of regular check ins, right? Checking in about the state of the relationship, addressing concerns, getting to them before they become bigger. And then I also think another important piece is resource banking. So when something is good, lean into it, celebrate it.

[00:40:54] Jess O’Reilly: We know that like celebrating. all the little things, taking pleasure in all the little things. We know from the workplace research that it, that it boosts morale and it contributes to positive team connections. And it’s the same thing in the household with your partner, with your kids, with anyone who’s important in your life, like really, uh, making time to celebrate.

[00:41:12] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us are from backgrounds. Where celebration is scary. When something good happens, we’re kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Some of us are from backgrounds where I don’t know, you get perfect on a spelling test and there’s never going to be a congratulations. No one’s, you know, I didn’t grow up with like, Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:41:30] Jess O’Reilly: Just, or like, good for you. It was like, Oh. All right. Good. Make sure you get it the next time.

[00:41:34] Brandon Ware: I don’t remember a lot of celebrations even growing up, but there were celebrations around events, meaning like birthdays or holidays. But like you said, there wasn’t a lot of celebration of the small things. And I do find like, I’m trying to celebrate more of the small little wins in life.

[00:41:47] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, every day I walk out into this living room and I am like, man, it’s beautiful. And I say it out loud. Cause I want. I want you to see it too. It’s a tiny little bid for connection and acknowledgement. And it sounds so [00:42:00] silly, but we’ve, we’ve spent a little time like putting it together. We’ve got our bar.

[00:42:03] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got our flowers. I love the way it looks. And so it’s little tiny things. And of course, bigger things too. Right. And I think you’re really good about it with me. I remember like if I got a deal or I signed a contract or had something new, I think even when I told you about, you know, the cruise, you were like, amazing, congrats.

[00:42:21] Jess O’Reilly: Even though we knew it was going to happen, even though I’ve, you know, done others before, but with yourself, you’ve never been like that. Like I remember the first time you closed a deal. I remember the first time you closed a big deal. You, your response was literally, do I want to know what do you think it was?

[00:42:36] Jess O’Reilly: This is 20 years ago, or I don’t know how many years, 18, it was probably,

[00:42:39] Brandon Ware: I got to do it again. Or how am I going to do this again?

[00:42:41] Jess O’Reilly: Exactly.

[00:42:41] Brandon Ware: Yeah. You know what? I took that approach. Every year trying to, at the end of the year, rather than celebrating the accomplishments of the year, I would, I would start to panic or not panic, but I, there’d be anxiety thinking about how I would replicate my production the following year.

[00:42:56] Brandon Ware: And it was only when I started to break that cycle that I, you know, I took so much more pleasure in. In working.

[00:43:04] Jess O’Reilly: In other words, you had more resources.

[00:43:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah. No, no, no. And it’s, it’s funny how you look back and reflect on things and, and you can start to draw parallels or you know, you can see, like, I could see that example, I could see the burnout, all of these things.

[00:43:16] Brandon Ware: But it’s, you know, it’s unfortunate that. Some of these negative events had to had to happen for me to see the positive.

[00:43:23] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm,

[00:43:23] Brandon Ware: but thankfully, you know kind of touch wood that there hasn’t been anything too too negative And I do take I do take joy out of small things now like I can think about I remember Walking out of a coffee shop for the first time and taking a sip of this coffee and thinking I really enjoy this Like I can remember exactly where I was I take pleasure now In my flowers, I really, I have this Bougainvillea and I’m like, man, I love this Bougainvillea.

[00:43:51] Brandon Ware: I go and I look at it. I will angle the chair so that I can see it while I’m reading.

[00:43:55] Jess O’Reilly: And is that, would you consider that a source of emotional [00:44:00] resource? Enhancement?

[00:44:01] Brandon Ware: Enhancement? Absolutely. I would, it’s a small thing, but it adds to the tank,

[00:44:06] Jess O’Reilly: especially when. The news is so bad, right? Like we’re just constantly consuming.

[00:44:11] Jess O’Reilly: There’s tragedy around the world. All right. And it’s always been there. And you know, we’re from Canada where it also exists, but with privilege, you haven’t seen, we haven’t seen it our whole lives and the shift. And I think democratization of access to news has changed things. And so when you’re bombarded with the reality, which is.

[00:44:30] Jess O’Reilly: draining and negative and sad and can leave you feeling, leave you feeling kind of hopeless. It is small things that build back up that joy. Yes, it’s getting to spend time together. Yes, it’s having a lovely meal together, but sometimes it’s just a sip of coffee or a flower. And maybe that sounds cheesy to people, but I mean, you figure out what your joy is for other people.

[00:44:47] Jess O’Reilly: It’s like beating their time in a race or

[00:44:50] Brandon Ware: I’m not trying or I’m not trying to downplay anybody else’s accomplishments. I’m just saying, I want to recognize the smallest of wins and I want to, and I want it. Recognize how they contribute to my happiness and they buffer those stresses.

[00:45:04] Jess O’Reilly: No, I think when you think about celebrating, they always talk about achievements, but it’s more than that.

[00:45:08] Jess O’Reilly: It’s every piece of joy in your life. And then also not feeling bad if you miss it. Cause people will say like, Oh, I don’t stop and smell the roses. Okay. So just do it. We can change some of our behaviors. I mean, and hopefully everyone has access to joy because it is. Harder to find that in, you know, certain circumstances.

[00:45:22] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I think we need to wrap it up. And what I want to say is in light of conservation of resource theory and how it might be applied to burnout, I think that I have some questions that are kind of a very loose exercise you can use to make adjustments or at least recognize where you’re at. So I’ve written down, I think, seven questions here that you can think about or jot down your answers to.

[00:45:41] Jess O’Reilly: The first is what factors are depleting your resources? Make a whole list. What factors are enhancing? Your resources and how are you preserving your resources? How are you sharing resources in relationships? And then how can you make cuts to some of the factors that deplete your resources because you can’t [00:46:00] cut them all and it might be limitations, right?

[00:46:02] Jess O’Reilly: Boundaries. And how are you able to access more of the factors that are accessible to you? Then enhance your resources. That was too long of a sentence. What I mean is how do you access more of the things that enhance your resources?

[00:46:15] Brandon Ware: And like you said, the nice thing about this exercise is once you’ve John, once you jot them all down, you can start to implement change immediately.

[00:46:21] Jess O’Reilly: And maybe just one small thing. Like if I make a list of all the things that deplete my resources. I can’t change them all. Like, please just consider picking one thing today. I already kind of figured out as I was talking this through, my brain has 42 tabs open what I’m, what I’m going to move forward with.

[00:46:36] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ll challenge you to think about what’s the thing you’re going to do to either reduce the depletion of your resources. or enhance the enhancement of your resources and we’ll leave it at that. Good to chat with you, babe.

[00:46:47] Brandon Ware: Thank you.

[00:46:47] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, folks.

[00:46:50] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.

You’re not a light switch, so you likely can’t get turned on in the blink of an eye. This week, to celebrate our wedding anniversary, we share 20+ specific strategies and action items you can use to make your relationship more romantic, intimate and erotic.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 341 – Eroticize Daily Interactions: 20 Actionable Tips For Busy Couples

Intro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight.

Dr. Jess: Hey, we’ve got a replay of one of my favorite topics, one of my favorite episodes on eroticizing daily interactions from April 2021, so you might hear some references to a totally different time. It’s a time warp.

Brandon: Welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast. I am your co host, Brandon Ware, here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey, hey. How are you?

Dr. Jess: I’m feeling good. I’m feeling good. I’m interested in this conversation for the two of us as well.

We’re going to be talking about how to make your daily interactions more erotic and What are you laughing at?

Brandon: I’m immediately thinking about eating a banana.

Dr. Jess: Oh my gosh, because in my presentations I always talk about how [00:01:00] to eroticize daily interactions because you’re not a light switch. You can’t go from talking about your taxes and your work and your kids and whether or not your dog had a bowel movement on its last walk to just flipping the switch and being, oh, hi.

Hey. Tear my clothes off, right? And my joke is when I say To eroticize your daily interactions. I don’t mean make everything annoyingly erotic, right? I don’t want to be eating a banana and have Brandon look over and be like, Oh yeah, you eat that banana. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s really more about playfulness and flirtation and I don’t know, all these different ways to be erotic.

It doesn’t have to be super sexual or graphic. So we’re going to be getting into that. I mean, I guess before we do, I should ask you, Do you feel like our interactions are particularly erotic?

Brandon: I don’t think that I’m an erotic person. I feel very self conscious whenever I’m [00:02:00] trying to do something that I think is erotic, whether I’ve seen it on, you know, TV, movie, somewhere, I feel like a goof doing it.

So when I see people who are genuinely erotic and they just exude the sex appeal, I’m, I’m like, good on you because when I try that, I feel like I look like a goof. I don’t know. Or I sound like a girl. Hey,

Dr. Jess: yeah. No, but you are naturally charming. Like flirtation is sort of charming. You may not be overtly sexual about it.

Yes. I also wonder if you haven’t had to be because people like the way you look so much.

Brandon: Well, maybe. I don’t know. Perhaps. If that’s what I’ve got going for myself,

Dr. Jess: you’ve got uh.

Brandon: Uh, yeah, certainly not the words

Dr. Jess: that I say. I don’t think that’s entirely true, but I would say that we’ve been getting along really well.

I would agree. I feel like we, we laugh a lot and we’re playful. I mean, I’m super funny. Well, I keep you laughing all day because my jokes are better than [00:03:00] yours and then you just repeat my jokes louder. That’s the trick,

Brandon: everyone listening. Just say the joke louder.

Dr. Jess: And be a man. And be a white man. And then everyone thinks you’re hilarious.

Pretty much. Uh, and so, yeah, I think this will be an interesting conversation to go through and see what we do and don’t do, because I’ve made this list for us of 20 ways to keep the flame burning, to make your daily interactions more erotic, and not necessarily to lead to sex all the time. So the reason I feel all of these things lay the groundwork so that sex becomes possible.

Like it doesn’t make sex automatic, it just means that like I can easily get in the mood with you because I like you, because I laugh with you, because you laugh at my jokes really loudly.

Brandon: You are very, very funny. I think you’re always making me laugh. And speaking of laughing and fun, having fun, we should shout out Lovehoney. Go over to lovehoney.com. Be sure to pick something up that Tickles, vibrates, a little [00:04:00] lingerie, something to spice up your day and be sure to use code DRJESS15, DRJESS15 to save a few extra dollars. And please know that we really appreciate all of your support. So with that being said.

Dr. Jess: Let’s talk about Eroticism and how do we’ve eroticism throughout your day? because if you only act like roommates or business partners or co parents or friends all the time, it can be hard to kind of shift into that lover role. This is what I hear from a lot of people. I don’t know, do you, do you feel that way?

Brandon: I feel that way at times, where I, I just have a hard time shifting from I’m in work mode or I’m in whatever mode, and then all of a sudden it’s, we’re going upstairs. And I know that I should be in relaxation and sexy time mode. But I’m not always there. So yeah, I experience it a

Dr. Jess: bit. You’re just too busy playing on WhatsApp for cryptocurrency.

Oh man,

Brandon: don’t even start.

Dr. Jess: Well, it’s interesting that you start [00:05:00] there. So this wasn’t the first one on my list, but I think we can go to the role ritual strategy. So I’ve talked about this before. So picking a role ritual at the end of the day that shifts from your more public role to the more private or more sensual one that you play exclusively with your partner.

So something that maybe helps you to relax and enjoy yourself or be a better version of yourself. So maybe it’s playing a song like this song means we’re done with parenting or we’re done with work and we’re just Connecting with one another again. It doesn’t mean you have to have sex at all. Just we’re gonna be here and present It might be mixing a cocktail.

It might be changing your clothes. Oh nice. Yeah, not so much right now I find because we’re all wearing our like indoor clothes. We’re in Toronto. So in Toronto just to give some context up here in Canada first of all, we’re much farther behind on the vaccine versus the States and also We’re on a, what’s it called?

Stay at home order. Stay at home order, yeah. You can’t, you can’t leave the house [00:06:00] unless it’s to do one of. 77 things. It’s 30 actually.

Brandon: One of which is any other action.

Dr. Jess: So yeah, we’re not wearing different clothes, but it might also be just switching your phone off. Like definitely for me, once I put my phone down and I’m trying to do it earlier and earlier.

It’s a little signal that, hey, I’m, I’m not working. I’m not thinking about other things. I’m just focusing on winding down for the night. It could be writing in a journal. It could be that you close your blinds, right? Uh, it could be that you stretch or you read a few pages from a book, or maybe you change the lighting.

Uh, maybe you dance. And it can be different every night, like sometimes we dance, but some nights we don’t. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

Brandon: I found that the role ritual really had a profound effect when we relocated for a few months to Jamaica. I noticed that at a certain point after dinner, I would put my phone into, um, sleep mode or into the nighttime mode.

And that it took a little while, but it certainly helped me shift away because it was like, well, I’m [00:07:00] not touching my phone anymore. So it means I can focus on anything else, which might’ve been having a drink, might’ve been reading a book or just relaxing and. Watching a show and it really that buffer between that and if you are going to have sex if that’s you know It just made it a lot easier if that’s your thing if that’s your

Dr. Jess: jam So we’ll go with that one as number one think about having a role ritual to kind of shift and then number two So that’s for night time has to do with the exact opposite So number two is about starting your day on the right foot So thinking of something small you can do for your partner that takes you 30 seconds or a minute to just kind of perform an act of kindness and it can help to reduce your anxiety and obviously make them feel important, which makes them more attracted to you.

So it might be that, you know, maybe you bring them a glass of water while they’re, you know, on a call or maybe it means you put their clothes out or clean their laptop screen or put a chocolate on their pillow or hide a note in their underwear drawer or warm up their socks on the heating vent. What are you

Brandon: laughing at?

I don’t even know. I’m just thinking about doing all of these things. It just seems [00:08:00] funny. Hide a note in your underwear drawer. Let’s play hide and seek.

Dr. Jess: No, like a nice note. No, no, I know. You used to do that in my suitcase when I’d go away. Yeah, when you went

Brandon: away. I would do that. I would write out 10 or 15 different notes and I would tuck them into different pieces of your clothing or parts of your suitcase in the hopes that you would find them.

Not when you got to the airport before you left.

Dr. Jess: Yeah, I really love, I loved that. So, okay, number one was the roll ritual. Number two is try and do something like tiny for them in the morning. I mean, you always make me my coffee. Yeah,

Brandon: uh, happy to make you a coffee. Does not take two minutes. I mean, damn, it takes me like 12 minutes

Dr. Jess: to make a coffee.

This morning

Brandon: you cheated. I did cheat. And it, yeah, I did. And we got a complaint. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, and I, I was just going to say, and we’re getting comments

Dr. Jess: on it, aren’t we? No, it wasn’t a complaint, I just said, hey, the coffee didn’t taste the coffee sucks. What’s up with it? But he didn’t, he didn’t use the proper espresso machine.

I’m sorry, like, how, how difficult am I? Sure

Brandon: you don’t want to keep talking about this or do you want to move on to the next point? So,

Dr. Jess: so high [00:09:00] maintenance. Okay, let’s move on to number three, and this one’s for you, Brennan, this is about taking a dump. . Okay, so you probably know what this is ’cause you’ve heard me talk about it before.

Brandon: I have. And it is not defecating.

Dr. Jess: No, no. It’s a complaint dump. So at the end of your day, or at some point during your day, can you just give yourselves two minutes or however many minutes you assign to it all out to get it all out so that you’re not complaining all throughout the day and all throughout the evening, and kind of shift the conversation away from.

Uh, a focus on kind of perceived negatives to create space for eroticism and playfulness and flirtation and I want, I want to be really clear this isn’t about be positive, love and light because there are definitely things to complain about and that’s okay but can you relegate them to a certain time or talk them out in a meaningful way rather than kind of allowing them to permeate throughout your day and into your night and into your bedroom.

Brandon: If you set a [00:10:00] timer and try to do this. This can be challenging. For me, I got a laundry list by the end of the day, man. It’s like, I’m gonna have to like speed talk through these next

Dr. Jess: two minutes. You’re not a big complainer though. Uh,

Brandon: no, not unless somebody wants to trash talk me about putting up the trash.

What?

Dr. Jess: Um. Oh, you mean the neighbors. Yeah, Brandon. Not you. Yeah, yeah, I know what you’re talking about. You do complain about your, your neck injury a lot. Which

Brandon: has since turned into a wonderful acupuncture, uh, doctor who’s fantastic.

Dr. Jess: Yeah, so you are complaining less about that. I am, yes. What do I tend to complain about?

Obviously the cold.

Brandon: Definitely the cold.

Dr. Jess: Um. The good thing is I have full control over the weather. Maybe

Brandon: the the food that we are or are not eating depending what

Dr. Jess: we’re ordering. Oh, yeah, if I have a bad meal, you know

Brandon: Yeah,

Dr. Jess: we’re gonna hear about it. So yeah, definitely a complaint dump can be a way just to relegate Certain, you know, negative conversations and also important conversations to a [00:11:00] different time.

And it doesn’t have to be two minutes. It can be, uh, it could be a, you know, 15 minutes, however long you want. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s also about taking it outta the bedroom. Yeah. Okay. Next, uh, on my list I have text playfully. So rather than just texting to update your partner about. day or ask them to, you know, pick up milk on the way home to think about texting for fun, like to use that medium to kind of cultivate connection and curiosity.

So maybe you send them. Like playful messages or incomplete messages in the morning, like a line from a song and then you kind of create like a drip text campaign. Um, or you just send them an image that you think is funny. One thing that I love, babe, and even though we’re in the same house and it’s not like a big house, we’re not far away from each other.

So at 11 11, I don’t know if folks do this, you know you’re supposed to make a wish at 11 11.

Brandon: I know that because I make a wish every day at

Dr. Jess: 11. 11. I know, but you’re the one who told me, so I don’t know how widespread this phenomenon is. Oh, yeah, I don’t know. That was just something I always did. Yeah, the superstitious [00:12:00] thing.

So I wasn’t raised with it, but I love it. So whenever 11. 11 shows up, I make my wish in my head, and I always wish for the exact same thing. And what I find is that it’s this huge reset. Because it’s, you know, I’ll be stressing about one thing or another, or, you know, worried about one thing with work, but then there’s only actually one thing I wish for, and there’s only one thing that I’m really focused on, and so it’s a reminder that whatever I’m worrying about probably isn’t that big, but my point is, you send me a text at 11 11, sometimes just to remind me that it’s 11 11 with like a heart, and And I don’t know it feels good even though like today you sent it to me.

I was on a somebody else’s podcast so I was upstairs and you were downstairs and I just like seeing it pop up on my phone. Yeah, it’s nice to

Brandon: get the message right when you’re not expecting

Dr. Jess: it. Yeah, so texting like think about how you can text for playful reasons and not just practical ones. Another option is to Send kind of sexy photos and it doesn’t have to be of yourself.

It could be any erotic photo or video that you like. It could be an incomplete image. It could be like a gif.

Brandon: Like a sexy [00:13:00] turtle

Dr. Jess: or something. Yes, a sexy turtle. But yeah. So it could be of other people, not obviously stolen pictures. I mean, things that are in the public domain. Like a sexy turtle. No, not a sexy turtle.

Okay. Well, the next thing on my list you made fun of, so I don’t know if I want to bring it up. It’s to like leave them love notes or playful or sexy notes where you like hide it in their underwear drawer. Because it’s just so easy to get caught up in this day to day. You know routine of work and response personal responsibilities And so you do you start acting like roommates and so I had suggested that you know people right now Just write down five little one liners for their partner and hide them throughout the house where where they’ll find them Right at some point and it doesn’t have to be today It could be like in a week and so it could be an email it could be you could mail it to them even

Brandon: Oh, that’s a good idea.

And you know, I wasn’t making fun of it. I think I, again, was [00:14:00] self conscious because I’m not very, I’m not very effusive. I’m not very verbal, like my, here we go, already struggling for words, right? As

Dr. Jess: evidenced by

Brandon: the blank, uh, um, but no, I just, I think I was self conscious. I was self conscious, but when I sent, when I did do that, it met with.

Such success that I would recommend to anyone who has a partner that travels. Ten little notes. Hide them in a bag. Hide them in their suitcase. Because when they find them, it’s a nice, it lets them know that you were thinking about

Dr. Jess: them. Especially when you’re on the road. I have to say, anything, as much as I love being on the road, and would do anything to get back on the road, uh, it’s, It’s lonely and it’s unfamiliar and I actually like those things sort of, but there’s something about familiarity when you’re on the road.

It’s sort of like, you know, if, if I’m in a city and there’s someone from Toronto in that city and we figure out that we’re in the city, we would never get together in Toronto, but we’ll meet for a drink in this [00:15:00] other city because there’s, there’s something about familiarity. So. Seeing your handwriting in my bag.

I still have a lot of those notes. Oh, do you? Yeah, you know I’m not a pack rat. No, you, we like to throw stuff out. But I have a few of those notes that you wrote on little tiny pieces of graph paper. Oh, nice. Uh, and I think I’ve left you notes, like in bed. I

Brandon: have letters and cards that you gave me when we first got together.

I, I hang on to. What did they say? Pretty much that I’m awesome. So I thought, you know, it was important to keep them. For yourself? Yeah, just a little self confidence

Dr. Jess: boost. Okay, so love notes. Here’s, here’s the other thing. We’re gonna give you 20 options, and you don’t have to do them all. Like if you could just pick one or two that appeal to you, I think that’s a great place to start.

Our next one is a physical activity that I think is really useful right now while we’re working from home. And this is just resetting with two minutes of physical connection. Because again, life kind of gets out of control. We forget to take the time to [00:16:00] connect, whether it’s emotionally or physical, physically, and this is just a quick two minute activity that can help you to feel more in the moment, more present, more in your body, more connected.

And all you’re going to do is lie next to each other or even sit next to each other. And bring your foreheads together and take, I always say, 11 deep breaths. And it can feel really weird and distracting and uncomfortable at first, but as you kind of start to slip into that third, fourth, fifth breath, you tend to feel more relaxed, you tend to feel closer to one another.

And there’s this concept of interpersonal synchronization where your heart and your breath rates start to align and your pain levels start to subside and even your like skin conductance begins to sync up. So we’ve done this before. We did this for a video course that we have, right?

Brandon: Yeah, we did. And as you said, the first few breaths that you take do feel a little weird.

The physical sensation of having somebody else’s forehead pressed against yours is [00:17:00] not something that you experience very often. So it takes one or two breaths to kind of get accustomed to that. And then I felt a little silly at first, but then like four or five breaths in, I was like, yeah, this is kind of work.

This is working. And then by the end of it, you’re like, okay, I, I I felt more relaxed, definitely. Yeah. More connected.

Dr. Jess: Yeah. So, okay, moving on. So, last week on CBC, I was talking about a new study that found that playfulness is super important in relationships and we already have kind of a wealth of data suggesting that playfulness is connected to all these positive outcomes in terms of connection and attraction and sex and all of these good things.

So, I was thinking about What does that mean, right? And I looked at the research and there’s this massive range of definitions from playing around like kids, to joking, to bringing levity, to showing curiosity. And so I sort of divided it into different types of playfulness. So starting with physical playfulness.

And this is really important for folks who are really [00:18:00] kinesthetic, right? Uh, physical playfulness is kind of an obvious route. to being playful. So this might be as simple as wrestling, wrestling around a little, like maybe when you’re both reaching for the remote. That could be Adam’s thing. That’s right.

Loves some wrestling. Right, Adam from Moon Tower counseling. He was on the show a couple of weeks ago. Brilliant, brilliant, funny guy. So yeah, it could be just like physically being playful. It could be dancing. It could be a pat on the butt. It could be kind of a squeeze that’s playful or teasing or. even mischievous as you kind of walk by them on your way to the kitchen or a brush on the thigh or just kind of a, you know, a little peck on the cheek while they’re on the phone.

You do that sometimes. You come by while I’m on a call if I don’t have the video on and I’ll feel you kiss like the back of my neck quietly. And I think this is so important because we aren’t as physically affectionate as I think a lot of us would like to be.

Brandon: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I’m not Uh, particularly, uh, [00:19:00] physically, uh, affectionate.

I, I like it. Like, I enjoy when you touch my shoulder, touch my hand, but I’ve noticed that I’m just, I don’t naturally gravitate and do that. I don’t reciprocate as well. So Do you

Dr. Jess: know what’s funny? What’s that? In your sleep. You’re always trying to get close to me. I know, I do. Like, even when you’re fast asleep, because you’re a heavy sleeper, if I roll to the other side of the bed, you inevitably follow me.

Sometimes I test it, because I’m always rolling. You know me, I’m always rolling around. I’m never It’s like

Brandon: sleeping with a starfish

Dr. Jess: over here, man. I’m never, I swear I’m never sleeping. It’s

Brandon: like sleeping with a hurricane. It could be a hurricane. It’s

Dr. Jess: like all over the bed. But the more relaxed you are, I notice the more affectionate you are, and I wonder if that’s more of your natural state, and if you hold back or something when you’re awake?

Yeah, I don’t

Brandon: know. I’ll have to ask my sleeping self.

Dr. Jess: So that’s, that’s one piece of it. And then the next one is to also be verbally playful. So that’s just simply joking around, you know, maybe being goofy, maybe messing with puns or sexual innuendo, um, [00:20:00] laughing at yourself. And it can also be kind of inside jokes.

So Brendan and I watch Brooklyn Nine Nine and everybody kind of has, you know, their show they watch. And I find that it always comes up in conversation as a joke. Oh my God. Look out

Brandon: the window right now. It’s a yellow crested warbler.

Dr. Jess: That’s the line you went for. You want a piggy?

Brandon: Well, the other day, I think our neighbors think we’re bananas.

Because you can see into our house from all angles. And I’m pretty sure you rode me like a donkey the other day. No, it was a pony. It was a pony, yeah. And it was not sexual at all. No, not at all. You were like, can I ride you? I’m like, no. Sure. Okay. And I was thinking after, I’m like, if people look in, they definitely think this is a sex game.

Dr. Jess: Well, only because you tried to buck me off.

Brandon: That was after, because I mean, eventually my knees

Dr. Jess: started to hurt. You barely even moved around. As soon as I got on you, you started to buck me off. So what did you want

Brandon: me to do? Run up and down the stairs with you on my

Dr. Jess: back? No, I just wanted you to crawl around the second floor.

Anyway. Maybe don’t [00:21:00] be like us. And then the other pieces Like another way to be playful is to simply make things into games. Like I noticed sometimes, you know, We threw

Brandon: a Frisbee in our living room the other day. And if you know our house, we have this chandelier that hangs. You’ve got crystal glasses, this piece of furniture.

And I’m like, I. We should not be doing this, but we continued. No, we didn’t

Dr. Jess: break a thing. We didn’t break anything that day. So yeah, playing games can, can be fun. Like, you know, the other thing is, I was outside with my friend the other day, just outside on the porch where we’re allowed to be. And you came out and you were trying to do this thing where you, I guess, squatted down on one leg.

Yeah, it’s a

Brandon: one legged squat, you know. It’s a pistol squat where you go all the way down to the

Dr. Jess: bottom. And then I wanted to do it too. So, and it became a competition. And we both hurt ourselves. Not me, I’m fine man, I’m young. Okay. I’m a young buck. You’re

Brandon: real young, you fell down.

Dr. Jess: That was not about age.

This is playful. Another option is to have, uh, for playfulness is just to have a routine that feels [00:22:00] fun. So another thing we’ve been doing lately, pulling a lot from our lives actually, for once we’ve been following. My own advice. Um, we do the spelling bee in the New York Times where you try and find the pangram and you try and make as many words possible and if I don’t get to genius level I start to lose my mind.

It’d be like 11

Brandon: o’clock at night. We cannot let the day finish without getting genius level. It’s like, I’m going

Dr. Jess: to bed. Sometimes we do the crossword together. So if there’s any sort of playfulness. We

Brandon: do not do the crossword. Brandon stands in and gives like five answers to a puzzle with a hundred clues.

But, uh, seriously, it’s kind of weird. I’m like, can I look at it? No, no, I gotta, I’m like, I’m just gonna let you do it.

Dr. Jess: I’m on a timer. I’m also a beginning of the week crossword. I love those because they’re a lot easier. They get harder as the

Brandon: week goes on. I do the Sesame Street crosswords.

Dr. Jess: Big Bird. Big Bird Oscar.

No, I actually really like when you do it with me because I find that a lot of the ones I can’t answer, you’re good at answering.

Brandon: I thought you were going to say, I like it when you do it [00:23:00] with me. I feel better about myself. No.

Dr. Jess: I feel smarter. Okay, it’s not true. You absolutely contribute to the crossword.

I just don’t let you hold the iPad. Thanks for the shout out. Okay, number 10. We’re moving on. I might have the numbers wrong. This is at least number 10. I think it’s 11. It’s simply about, uh, being more flirtatious. Uh, definitely, you know, thinking about just smiling when they walk in the room. Um, I often talk about greeting your partner like a dog, making a point of stopping what you’re doing, walking over to them, paying attention, wagging your tail.

That’s

Brandon: why I keep treats in my pocket. It’s

Dr. Jess: a little bumbelini. Hey! I would like

Brandon: a little bambalini. You probably would like me better if I had bambalinis in my pod.

Dr. Jess: I would. I would. So yeah, just um, that’s something I’ve been trying to do and I’m not always successful at it, but when you walk in the room, actually paying attention to you.

Another really important piece, I better start moving on these, is to look for opportunities to actually spend time apart. So if you want eroticism, oftentimes there needs to be some sort of [00:24:00] distance and mystery. And I think with folks who are working from home, we have to be even more mindful. of this than we ever were before, so that may be as simple as going for walks separately, which you do oftentimes.

Brandon: Yeah, I do. I enjoy my walks alone. It gives me a chance to also reset and just listen to some music, go for a 15, 20 minute, 30 minute walk, and it helps. I like spending that time on my own.

Dr. Jess: And I like that you’re gone. Yeah, I’m sure that you do. Definitely another one that I love. This is number 12 or 13 or 14.

We don’t know. It’s to stare at their best assets. So I always like to remind people that it’s okay to objectify your partner within the context of a loving, respectful relationship. You can honor them and respect them and love their butt. You can, you know, really respect their, I don’t know, intellect and sense of humor, and you can lust after them because love and animalistic lust don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

So [00:25:00] I, I, you know, for example, if your partner walks through the door, rather than asking about their day, Or just talking about your schedules. Stare at their best assets. Like, take a moment to soak in the sex appeal that first attracted you to them. Right? So stop what you’re doing. Focus on what you see in the moment.

And really look at your partner. Pick a body part you love. Focus on it like an animal in heat. Like I always say, look at them like a piece of meat. Or tofu. For the vegetarians. Whatever works for you. And really forget about all their annoying habits. And objectify them. Number 13, and I won’t, I won’t, um, belabor this point because we did a whole episode on it, and that’s on minimizing technofarence.

So create one space in your home that is tech free and pick one time every week or every day that is also tech free. This is a really big deal, and we spent a good amount of time a couple months ago exploring this one so you can go back and listen. Number 14 is to block quality time. So choose a block of time whether it’s [00:26:00] lunchtime during the day or an hour in the afternoon and during that quality time you are going to ban conversations that relate to the dark triad of topics.

So you’re not going to talk about work, kids, COVID. And if you don’t have kids, it’s like family or friends that you complain about. So instead, you’re going to have questions that you can pull up. I have a ton on our website, on previous podcasts, meaningful questions that kind of allow you to escape from reality even just for a few minutes.

So for example, if you could grab a drink with anyone from any period in history, whom would you choose and why? Who would you choose? Like any time in history?

Brandon: I, I would want to chat with, uh, Obama. I feel like he’d Which Obama? But I’d want him to talk openly and honestly. Like, I feel

Dr. Jess: like That’s a whole other conversation.

Brandon: Yeah. But that would be really interesting. For sure. And I’m sure there are a bunch of others that I could, I could come up with too. For [00:27:00] sure.

Dr. Jess: Yeah, I’d love to talk to him. I’d love to talk to her as well. Yeah. Uh, alright. Number 15. It involves giving compliments. So, and I want to talk about compliments for a moment.

So, a compliment is something that, you know, makes somebody feel good. So, and I often talk about this on social media, probably not often enough, that the intention of the compliment does not make it a compliment. It’s the outcome that makes it a compliment. Because sometimes people will say things to me that I, that don’t feel good for me, right?

Like, really, kind of sexual stuff. from strangers and they’ll say, Oh, I meant it as a compliment. And I remind them that a compliment is about the person who receives it, right? So you saying, like, nice tits to me as some stranger after I’ve just written what I think is a very thoughtful caption on an Instagram post is not a compliment to me.

It actually feels objectifying and degrading. So, yeah, and I want to talk about the levels of compliments. This is actually, this is for you, Brandon. Okay, let’s do it. No, [00:28:00] it’s for everyone. So, three levels. Pleasantry, admiration, and lustful or animalistic. So, pleasantry compliments, compliments of pleasantry are just, you know, things that you, you know, you could say to your child, a parent, you could say to a parent.

Nice shoes. Yeah, you’re so sweet, or you’re very smart, or. You know, you look handsome. Um, I guess that could also fall into the second category of admiration. So what do I really like about you? And can I get really specific? Like, I love your kneecaps in those jeans. I thought

Brandon: you were going to comment on how funny I am.

Dr. Jess: Anyhow, and then the third level of lustful or animalistic compliments is when we get really specific. Like, when you wear those jeans, I can’t keep my eyes off your ass. Or, you know, when you bend over like that, it makes me Think about just how hot you are. So think about, what, what are you laughing at? I thought you were going

Brandon: to say something.

I was like, when you bend over like that, it makes me think you need [00:29:00] new underwear.

Dr. Jess: Hang on, you did sit in chocolate the other day. Yep, I did. Right in the middle of your jeans, like the seam down the middle. And what was

Brandon: most interesting about this fact is that I did not clean it up for

Dr. Jess: three days. I know, and then the next day I see you in the same jeans where it looks like you pooped yourself.

Brandon: It’s funny to me, okay? It’s funny, I’m like, whatever.

Dr. Jess: This is what life has come to. Yep. But compliments really go a long way and we have research on the fact that compliments give a boost in confidence and mood to both the giver and receiver. So I think we can be a bit more specific and a bit more purposeful with our compliments.

Next is really about touching your partner when you’re not in the mood. And this is a big one. So one of the most. Meaningful times to be affectionate is when you’re actually not in the mood. So I’m not suggesting that you do anything against your will, but if you are feeling frustrated or angry or exhausted or even resentful or stressed, if you can just reach out and touch one another, [00:30:00] you’ll probably find that reconnecting just physically does something for the emotional connection as well.

And all of those kind of negative feelings that interfere with eroticism tend to subside. as your bodies respond to one another’s touch.

Brandon: I feel this way. I feel, again, just more connected when you reach out and touch my hand, touch my shoulders. So, yeah, I

Dr. Jess: would agree it works. Actually, sometimes during the podcast we do hold hands, eh?

Yeah. Next we have, play music in your bedroom because music, uh, Well, first of all, we know that people who listen to loud music apparently have more sex and music can shift your mood, it can kind of boost your confidence, it can help you to relax, and all of these things actually heighten the erotic connection.

So kind of thinking about what kind of music you want to hear. Do you want to feel powerful and then you want to listen to heavy bass apparently. If you want to feel like kind of loving and playful, they say to pick songs from your early days. of dating, if you [00:31:00] need to de stress or de compress, they say a more kind of mellow melody is good for you.

And if, if you’re familiar with the concept of core erotic feeling, which I’ve spoken about on the podcast before, and I’m going to do a whole new podcast on it because it needs an update, uh, but your core erotic feeling is the feeling that you require in order to get in the mood for sex. Think about what kind of music makes you feel.

That feeling. And you can play it in the bedroom or you can play it in the kitchen as you’re cleaning up. And then I have a game for the next one from, from my book, The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Swordplay. Not swordplay. The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay.

Brandon: I do like swordplay though, that’s a

Dr. Jess: nice, that’d be a great book.

I’m gonna opt right out of the swordplay, thank you very much. This one is called Netflix and Strip. And the book is co authored by Marla Renee Stewart, and I can’t actually remember whether she came up with this or me, so I want to make sure she gets credit too. But, you know, we Netflix and chill, but Netflix and strip is a little bit different.

You agree to [00:32:00] remove a piece of your partner’s clothing, or yours, whenever you hear a specific word when you’re watching television. And you can agree on a word together, Or you can kind of secretly have a word and they have to have figure out what that word is so I can have my own word and then you have to like kind of figure out what it is as it goes as it goes along.

That’s

Brandon: cool. That’s some fun while you’re watching Netflix.

Dr. Jess: I like that. And then another really important one, I’m pretty sure we went over 20, is using the 99 rule. And again, if you follow my work, I’ve mentioned this one before, but it’s so important to just ease tension. And it’s not that this is going to lead to sex, but it lays the groundwork so that sex becomes more possible.

So the 99 rule is simply. Thinking about whether issues or arguments or points of contention or stress will matter to you when you’re 99 years old. So if you’re fighting about something, if you’re feeling frustrated over a disagreement, uh, if you’re, you know, even stressed about work, [00:33:00] does this matter to me?

Is this something I’m even going to remember when I’m 99 years old? And I also think about that three pronged approach of does this affect my livelihood, like my security? Am I going to lose my house and end up on the street? Does it affect my health? and does it affect the love in my life? And if it doesn’t affect those, yeah, why would I want to let it adversely affect my health via unnecessary stress?

I’m glad

Brandon: that you brought up over thinking about the 99 rule during work because I do think about it during work. Especially when I’m getting really worked up or if something’s bothering me. When I remember That 99 rule, I’m like, yeah, this doesn’t really matter. It’s not that I’m not going to deal with it.

It’s not that I’m not going to fix the problem or whatever the issue is, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not worth me losing sleep or being upset, bringing that home to my partner or like to you. And, uh, yeah, I find it really, really helpful.

Dr. Jess: Yeah. And then last but not least, and I think this one’s so important is to set a little, little time aside.

[00:34:00] to daydream together once a week, to think about, you know, what you’re going to do when you retire or what you’re going to do when the travel restrictions have been lifted or what you, I don’t know, your dream vacation or what you would do if you won the lottery. Just kind of these hypotheticals that give you a sense of escapism.

Because when we think about eroticism, so it’s definitely about intimacy and connection and the physical. Uh, and it’s also about The playful and the curious and all of these things come together. So I don’t think, you know, daydreaming means that we’re going to hop in the sack immediately. Now, if we were to talk about fantasies, right, because I’ve kept these kind of non sexual, right?

Because not everybody wants to be sexual all the time. If we were to talk about fantasies. There’s a good chance it’ll lead to the bathroom. Definitely, I would agree. So if you’re in the mood for that, you could also talk about your, your sex dreams or anything you’ve seen that’s turned you on. But this escape from reality is really helpful, especially when you’re feeling stressed out, right?

Like, I remember when we were young. [00:35:00] Long, long time ago. We weren’t that old. No, but I remember like 20, right when we met, we would talk about what we would do if we won the lottery. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. And we would go deep down the rabbit hole as though it was real. I’d be like, no, no, no. But we can’t do that.

And then you’d almost forget that you weren’t having a real conversation. I

Brandon: remember being young and buying a ticket and I don’t even want to check the numbers. I just want to keep daydreaming. Like, it’s more fun to buy the ticket and daydream than it was to check the ticket because you knew you were going to be disappointed.

Right.

Dr. Jess: Right? So, yeah. So, as I kind of walk through these 20 ways to make daily interactions more erotic, obviously what I’m reminded of is that it’s way too much, right? You’re not going to do all of these things all of the time, but what you’re doing is you’re laying down so that you can make sex possible.

I

Brandon: also think if you push through and commit to them, like if you choose one or two or three, and you don’t expect fireworks the first day that you do them, but [00:36:00] you know that over the course of a week, you know, three, five, ten, twenty days, it’ll contribute and, you know, then, I also notice when you do these things for me, I want to reciprocate and I want to do them back for you.

So it builds this wonderful snowball effect where, you know, I’m happy to make you coffee because I know you’re going to, uh, you know, make me lunch or you’re going to, and I don’t expect it, but this wonderful back and forth of trying to do nice things for each

Dr. Jess: other. Out nice each other. Yeah, I guess it brings me to the question that I will inevitably receive because you’re saying, Oh, when I do something, you want to reciprocate.

What do you do when you have a partner who just takes and takes? Because there are people who are more givers. There are more people who are more matchers, and there are people who are more matchers. Yeah. And I don’t know if folks have read Adam Grant’s Give and Take, and it’s more focused on business, but obviously there’s a relational element in all areas of our lives.

So what do you do if you are doing these things and your partner isn’t

Brandon: [00:37:00] reciprocating? Take pleasure in the ability to do it. Know that one day if you couldn’t do it, you would be happy to do it. And I don’t think this means that you should take pleasure in doing every single thing for that person and, you know what I mean, and not expect anything at all in return.

But I always reminded myself that, you know, one day these things that I regard as chores or things that I wouldn’t necessarily want to do. I will long to do them.

Dr. Jess: You mean like if you couldn’t? If I couldn’t. You mean when I start traveling again?

Brandon: There will be days when you travel again where I’m like, geez, you know, I miss making you a coffee in the morning.

Dr. Jess: I think the other thing is if your partner isn’t, first of all, you’re not doing this for them to reciprocate, but if just this is more of a pattern in your relationship in which you are giving a lot and they’re taking and maybe not showing appreciation or not as open to doing things for you. I think, I think it’s an important conversation to have to let them know, you know, it would feel good.

I would feel really good if you could try this or when you do [00:38:00] this, it makes me feel really loved right back to that, you know, starting with the positive, trying to understand through an inquiry and then making your requests. So, um, I, again, I think so many of us say things like you never text me or you never call me instead of, Hey, you know, anytime I get a text from you, it just.

I’d love to see your name on my screen. I’m, I’m really of the belief that it’s okay to just say what you like, to say what you want and, but don’t be, you can’t, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say, oh, I want them to just know, right? That’s something I hear. They’re like, well, if I have to ask them, it doesn’t feel as good.

And I hear you, but sometimes people have no clue what you enjoy and what makes you feel loved and what makes you feel valued. And this notion that they have to read your mind. is inevitably going to lead to letdown. So definitely speak up. It

Brandon: reminds me of the, uh, the soulmate thing. Right? Where it’s like, well, if my soulmate, they should, everything should be easy and nothing.

And it’s like, well, but if you don’t have a conversation, they may just never know.

Dr. Jess: Right. And compatibility [00:39:00] isn’t about sameness. Yeah. Right? We are very, very different. Very different. So if I were to do for you the things that I want, You may not even like them. Yeah, and that’s why no one’s inherently a great partner or inherently a great lover Like we have to just keep communicating.

So we’ll leave it at that Hopefully you find one or two things from our list of I don’t know. I think it was 22 I’m gonna have to go count them and You can try something new or just probably something you’ve already done and you just needed the reminder like even as I go through this List, it’s a really good reminder to myself that I don’t have to do it all But there are some things where I could step it up a little so Thanks, babe, for chatting with me today.

Brandon: Thank you. And I want to take this opportunity to tell everyone to head over to lovehoney. com. Pick up something that vibrates, massages, sucks or blows in a great way, of course, or some lingerie to spice up your evening. Hey, listen, your morning, your afternoon, whatever works for you. Anytime is a good time and be sure to use the code.

DRJESS15, Dr. Jess [00:40:00] one five to save a few extra dollars. And please know that we really appreciate your support.

Dr. Jess: Folks, wherever you’re at

Outro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.

Do you want to…

Tune in for a discussion – of why we bicker and 12 simple strategies to reduce conflict in relationships as Jess and Brandon weigh in on this listener question: “We love each other madly. He’s really the love of my life, and we don’t seem to have any big, deep issues because we’re really aligned – on values, family, spirituality, and the core issues. But we bicker a lot. I don’t like – the example we’re setting for our kids. How can we cut back on the daily bickering so our household is more at ease and we have more peace – because we both work from home.”

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 340

How To Stop Bickering: 12 Strategies

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Let’s bicker.

[00:00:16] Brandon Ware: Let’s, what are we going to bicker over?

[00:00:18] Jess O’Reilly: You splashing all over the place in the bathroom. Like you’re some sort of a hippo in the tub.

[00:00:22] Brandon Ware: Well, I can’t help it because the sink is too small.

[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: Cause your head’s big.

[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: I got a big face. Well, you know what? You make a mess sometimes.

[00:00:31] Jess O’Reilly: We absolutely suck. We suck at this. We’re supposed to be talking about bickering today, but when you put us on the spot, listen, when we’re in the middle of a bicker, we got it.

[00:00:39] Brandon Ware: Things are real.

[00:00:40] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got it down, but to fake it seems really hard.

[00:00:43] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, we’re going to talk about how to stop bickering and having little daily arguments today. We have a question from, uh, from a listener, and this is a question I kind of get over and over. And over again, because life can be stressful and life can be busy. And I think that’s one of the big reasons we bicker.

[00:00:58] Jess O’Reilly: So before we dive into it, want to shout out our sponsors, Adam and Eve. com. They are offering 50 percent off almost any item plus free shipping, plus free handling, which is Brandon’s favorite part with code Dr. Jess 50. So check out Adam and Eve. com. Bildos, vibrators, butt plugs, other fun things that you can use in your body.

[00:01:19] Jess O’Reilly: Adam and Eve. com code. Dr. Jess 50. All right, let’s dive right into it.

[00:01:23] Brandon Ware: Let’s, are we going to continue bickering or is, is this where it stops?

[00:01:26] Jess O’Reilly: No, we’re going to start bickering.

[00:01:28] Brandon Ware: Let’s do it. Yeah. Amazing.

[00:01:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So we have this note, uh, there’s a bit of a preamble, but the bulk of it is we love each other madly.

[00:01:35] Jess O’Reilly: He’s really the love of my life. And we don’t seem to have any big deep issues because we’re totally aligned on values, family, spirituality, and all the core issues. But we bicker. A lot. I mean, nonstop. And I don’t like the example we’re setting for our kids. How can we cut back on the daily bickering so our household is more at ease and we have more peace because we both work from home?

[00:01:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:02:00] Yeah, I think those of us who have gone back to the workplace or, and aren’t kind of trapped in the home like most of the world was or much of the world was in a couple of years ago. we can look back and think about, Oh yeah, we were really in each other’s space. And um, you know, there is some research that suggests, and I know I’ve talked about this in the past, that small everyday arguments can help to stave off bigger fights by releasing tension and helping to cultivate understanding.

[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t mean every day as in daily. I mean, every day, like kind of just mundane stuff. And there’s, there’s so much research in this area. So one study found that couples who focus on resolving the smaller Solvable issues first fare better in the big picture. And that makes sense. It’s like, if I have a whole bunch of tasks on a list list, it feels good to cross one off the list and it’s that caravaning phenomenon, right?

[00:02:48] Jess O’Reilly: One good thing leads to another good thing and it makes you feel more capable. So with this study, what they found was that being able to differentiate between the issues that need to be solved at this time versus those that can be addressed at a later time is a really important. relational skill. And when you overcome or come to understanding on a small issue, it can help you to create a blueprint to think about how you’re going to better understand one another moving forward, right?

[00:03:14] Jess O’Reilly: So if we can solve this small issue in this way, maybe I learned to identify what makes you respond more positively in the face of conflict. I can apply that to the bigger, more complicated, more intense issues. And I think we do that with sort of subconscious, right? We’re always learning about how people respond, even if we don’t make a note of it.

[00:03:30] Jess O’Reilly: And so a little bickering. Could lead to improved understanding and more kind of team based problem solving, but conflict isn’t generally productive if it’s not deepening some sort of understanding or releasing some tension that helps you to feel more at ease and you’re asking for more ease. So if you’re just.

[00:03:48] Jess O’Reilly: snapping at each other about unloading the dishwasher or working late, or, you know, who’s doing, who put the kids to bed last night because you should put them to bed tonight. Thinking about our friends. You’re not really [00:04:00] conveying what you’re feeling. You’re not really expressing what you want. You’re not really sharing why you want it.

[00:04:04] Jess O’Reilly: You’re just going at each other. And we know that ongoing bickering can also take a toll. On your connection, on your nervous system and, and definitely on the family unit, as you’ve mentioned, cause you’re worried about the example you’re setting for your kids. And actually I think your capacity to show them that you can have conflict, that you can be imperfect and still be loving and still take care of one another and still come back together and resolve.

[00:04:28] Jess O’Reilly: Issues I think is, is really powerful. I don’t think many of us got to see that growing up.

[00:04:33] Brandon Ware: I was just going to say, I think that’s such a powerful lesson to convey to your children for those that have them, because I don’t feel, I don’t recall there being a lot of positive modeling in that respect growing up.

[00:04:44] Brandon Ware: And again, no one’s parents are perfect, but I think about those who I have seen try to communicate and to model that great behavior and subconsciously it’s creating, like you just said, that. Blueprint, like it would be so helpful. And also for me and our, when we get into these arguments, you’ll, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s a couple of things that I do.

[00:05:03] Jess O’Reilly: Are we getting there? I thought we were going to talk about throwing plates based on childhood memories.

[00:05:09] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Well, we could go down that, that road, but maybe we’ll gloss over that for now. But, but even just in identifying what it is you’re feeling, like you were saying, like communicating and for me, it’s highlighting that, you know what?

[00:05:20] Brandon Ware: I’m bickering with you right now. I say the words out loud or, you know, I’m arguing over this. And as soon as I do that, I feel like it dismantles some of the walls in our arguments, right? Where I’m like, Hey man, I feel like we’re bickering. I’m bickering a lot right now. So I’ve said it, it’s out in the open.

[00:05:37] Brandon Ware: What do I need to do? Now I can start asking myself, what do I need to do to stop? Because otherwise I’m just going to continue. And I feel like in our relationship, when one of us says something, the other one’s more receptive. And becomes more aware and it immediately changes the dynamic in that argument.

[00:05:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, you’re better at that than me. Me, I’m like, I am focused on a point and I wanna get this point through, and I’m still hung up on this point. And so I think what I was thinking now is that we could talk about [00:06:00] strategies to deal with bickering when it starts so that it doesn’t get outta control. So you can shut it down so you can maybe have a positive outcome as well as, and this is super important to me, the preventative pieces.

[00:06:11] Jess O’Reilly: Because I think if we’re going to talk about bickering, we want to look at the conditions in the relationship, the conditions in our household, the conditions in our lives, obviously you’re affected by conditions at work, that lay the groundwork to make you more likely to engage. So I thought we would start with, and we’ll start with you, what you do When we start bickering to either, I guess, calm the situation or end the bickering or deal with it in a constructive way.

[00:06:36] Jess O’Reilly: Like, what is it that you do when we bicker? And we, we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, we were prepping for something, we had a whole bunch of people and this is a story of our lives. A whole bunch of people coming to live in our house every week. There’s somebody, there’s like six new people here.

[00:06:48] Jess O’Reilly: Um, we do love it. Oh my gosh. Like it’s, it’s a dream. And at the same time, sometimes it can be a lot. And we. Can be snappy like so we were preparing for something a project that required us to be on the road and there were people coming into the entire home while we were gone and we were just a little snappy at each other and I can’t even remember what it’s about but I can remember what I felt and I’m wondering if you can recall So.

[00:07:14] Jess O’Reilly: What you might’ve done effectively or what you might do next time.

[00:07:18] Brandon Ware: Man, that particular instance, I don’t know if I necessarily engaged in a productive behavior, but I don’t find we bicker a lot, but that was an instance where I felt snappy. That was a really key word. And what I’ve done in the past is just shut up.

[00:07:31] Brandon Ware: Like I just, just shut up. Like when we’re going back and forth, why am I going to contribute to the bickering? Like what is that going to accomplish?

[00:07:37] Jess O’Reilly: So is that shut up and listen or shut up and withdraw?

[00:07:40] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Well, I think the goal is shut up and listen. Because it’s easy to shut up and withdraw and just not say anything and turn the cold shoulder.

[00:07:47] Brandon Ware: But as opposed to just saying, you know what, I’m going to listen. I’m thinking, I’m going to listen to what you have to say. That’s it. My inclination is tough snap back with something to fire back, but I’m just going to listen. That’s it.

[00:07:58] Jess O’Reilly: It’s such a hard thing in the heat of the [00:08:00] moment when you have something to say, and you’re just waiting for the other person to stop so that you can say what you have to say.

[00:08:06] Jess O’Reilly: So my. Hack, just for me, cause I’m a verbal visual person is I like to picture the words, listen, cause I do struggle to listen. I do struggle to not move on to the next thing. I do struggle to not get distracted. And so I actually picture like the letters L I S T E N. And I use this a lot. You’ve probably heard me mention it in, in other areas, like a ticker.

[00:08:26] Jess O’Reilly: So I think about the stock ticker and listen is coming across it so that I can tune into what you’re saying.

[00:08:31] Brandon Ware: I have to listen. So am I listening to Fireback? Or am I listening to understand? That’s my question. Am I actively listening to understand your position, understand how you’re feeling so that once you’ve expressed that to me, I can process it and then respond back as opposed to just listen to wait until you shut up or stop speaking so that I can fire back.

[00:08:52] Brandon Ware: As you said,

[00:08:53] Jess O’Reilly: it’s so hard for me to say shut up. Even the words, ’cause my mom, when I was little would always say, shut up is uncouth. I don’t even, I didn’t even know what that meant except for I knew I was not allowed to say shut up. I could say a lot of other things, but I wasn’t allowed to say. Yeah, it was not a nice word.

[00:09:05] Jess O’Reilly: Shut up. But I do think that that’s as our number one thing is to just. Be quiet and listen. Another tactic for me that I use to listen more actively, and again, I may have spoken about this before, is I, again, I picture the ticker of all of your words because I would rather read than listen audially any, any day.

[00:09:22] Jess O’Reilly: And not everybody wants to write everything down for me. So I actually picture the words as you’re saying them. It’s the same as like, you know, I watch all my television shows with subtitles. I, I have no clue what’s happening in a show if there’s no subtitles.

[00:09:34] Brandon Ware: And when there’s subtitles, all I do is read the subtitles.

[00:09:36] Brandon Ware: Then I don’t get to enjoy turning my brain off and just listening to what’s happening.

[00:09:40] Jess O’Reilly: Funny story, we had the opportunity to go watch a film the other day. So we have not been to, I haven’t been to a theater. I think the last movie I saw in a theater was The Great No, The Great Gatsby. When was that?

[00:09:52] Brandon Ware: The Great Gatsby,

[00:09:52] Jess O’Reilly: I a decade ago? I don’t know, that’s the last movie. I have no concept of time.

[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: No concept [00:10:00] of time. It’s a Caribbean thing, but we went to see past lives at a screening in a very, very small theater. Great movie. Yeah, but so it’s in English and Korean. But the subtitles for the Korean parts were in Spanish,

[00:10:16] Jess O’Reilly: but it was a great way to keep learning our Spanish. Right?

[00:10:19] Brandon Ware: Yeah, it was great.

[00:10:20] Jess O’Reilly: Good film.

[00:10:20] Brandon Ware: It was a great movie about going to a grocery store and buying lemons.

[00:10:25] Jess O’Reilly: My point is that I’m used to reading subtitles. I know some people don’t like subtitles, but I picture subtitles when you’re talking, when I find myself not wanting to listen.

[00:10:33] Jess O’Reilly: So that might sound really simple. We’re going to, you know. I think I have six more in this category and then we’ll get into the preventative. But number one is to try and just take a breath and listen, right? And I know that you’re really good at that better than me. My, my second one, and I’ve talked about this before, but I think it’s super important to bickering is the 99 rule.

[00:10:52] Jess O’Reilly: Like, can you stop? And again, I picture the numbers 99. I don’t know why. It’s just the way my brain works. Will I care about this when I’m 99 years old? Will I be proud of my behavior when I’m 99 years old? Will I be glad that I gave my energy to this? When I’m 99 years old, sometimes I think thinking to the future and thinking when we’re older, cause I don’t know anyone who’s 99, right?

[00:11:16] Jess O’Reilly: I know some people in their eighties, but I don’t know. I mean, I’ve talked to people who are in their nineties. Like there’s a lady in our building. Who’s she 92 or 96?

[00:11:24] Brandon Ware: 92. Yeah. One of the two. I don’t know,

[00:11:25] Jess O’Reilly: but I think about, well, first of all, we have research showing that people argue less as they get older in relationships and they spend more time apart and they don’t engage in every little issue.

[00:11:34] Jess O’Reilly: I also think there are some generational differences in terms of trying to make relationships perfect. And it might be in reaction to what we saw with our parents. And we don’t want to go through the same things, but I also think that we’re too hyper focused on making everything perfect in understanding every little thing in getting to the root source of.

[00:11:52] Jess O’Reilly: every little thing and not trying to get preachy. I think it’s different for every person, but I don’t believe that we need to explain and understand everything. I [00:12:00] also don’t think we need to make our partners always understand every little thing we feel. Like sometimes you’re just snappy and you stop and you say, sorry, and hopefully your partner’s like, yeah, I get it.

[00:12:10] Jess O’Reilly: You had a hard day. I’m over it. Right? Like they don’t keep digging in as to why what you said wasn’t fair. Like, yeah, I just said it. What I said wasn’t fair. I suck. Mea culpa. So I think that 99 rule, I use it. Everywhere, especially when I’m stressed out, especially when I can feel my nervous system, just feeling overwhelmed.

[00:12:27] Jess O’Reilly: I’m like, does this matter in the big scheme in the big picture? Is this going to matter to me? I agree. And I think it overall helps to just reduce conflict. Okay. Number three, and we’re going to get to the preventative stuff. There’s a whole bunch here to deal with conflict or kind of bickering in the heat of the moment.

[00:12:43] Jess O’Reilly: I wonder if you can stop and just think about. What you want, what’s the resolution you’re hoping for, right? And I often suggest that people write it down. That’s my own bias, but we also have research suggesting that writing about relationship troubles reduces conflict and aggression. And I know you and I discussed this earlier in another podcast, a study that suggested that writing about conflict from a neutral third party perspective can improve relationships and conflict outcomes.

[00:13:06] Jess O’Reilly: But this is a bit of a shortcut. Can you just like open a note on your phone and write down what you want? Because sometimes we’re arguing about absolutely nothing. Sometimes you find yourselves bickering and there’s no point except perhaps power or releasing stress and frustration that actually shouldn’t be directed at this person.

[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: So can you write down what’s the point?

[00:13:25] Brandon Ware: I thought that was such a great experience. And if you’d like to make fun of us, please go back and listen to the Popsicle incident podcast. Because when you write down from the perspective of a third person, for me, it really changed how I saw the event. Unfold and also helped me take more responsibility for my actions in that, in the popsicle incident.

[00:13:45] Jess O’Reilly: I forgot about that incident. And then even when you described it, I’m like, what was the popsicles? I remember

[00:13:50] Brandon Ware: that back. And I felt like such a loser, but it was a great experience.

[00:13:54] Jess O’Reilly: You really were a tool bag. I was just kidding.

[00:13:56] Brandon Ware: I was a dirt bag. I was a dirt bag. I was a very useful part of a [00:14:00] vacuum.

[00:14:00] Jess O’Reilly: I was just going to say that a dirt bag is a positive thing.

[00:14:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So you write down what you want. And then I do wonder. At the end of every argument, if you can just take note of the resolutions to to kind of take note of like, what’s my takeaway here? What are the resolutions? It’s easy to fight and forget about it. And that can be a really good thing because you don’t need to get hung up on it.

[00:14:21] Jess O’Reilly: But if you’re having the same fight over and over again, or if you’re bickering every day, it might be worth writing down. What you learn, what you want to do differently moving forward. And I’m not talking about an essay. I’m not even talking about a paragraph. It could be two words, like a reminder to yourself that maybe you were triggered and we’ll get to that in a moment as well.

[00:14:40] Jess O’Reilly: And then you just brought something up that is point number four, which is after you’ve bickered or preferably while you’re bickering. Please always take some responsibility. Like part of this is you, part of this is the way you engaged. Okay. Are there exceptions? Sure. But most of the time it does take two to tango.

[00:15:00] Jess O’Reilly: It’s a dynamic that you’ve created. It may be a very overwhelmingly positive dynamic, but there’s usually an underlying dynamic that exists that can lead to both harmony and conflict. And so this is a different topic altogether. We need to do one on dynamics, but we have a dynamic. Around decision making, right?

[00:15:18] Jess O’Reilly: Personally, not in business. Anything we do business together, I think is a little bit different, but personally, I make a lot of the decisions and you’re super easygoing. You’re like, go with the flow, whatever you want. And I actually love that. Cause I get what I want a lot of the time, but it also frustrates me and it does lead to conflict.

[00:15:35] Brandon Ware: And the real question is, am I really easygoing? Or am I playing into some of these existing patterns and grooves, right? Like people pleasing and the desire for validation, removing any responsibility, accountability. So when you start paying attention to these other elements, it starts to change how you feel too.

[00:15:53] Brandon Ware: Like how I feel about making decisions. I’m like, okay, well, you know what? I don’t want it to be this way. I make so many decisions when it comes to work. [00:16:00] And I know you do too, that there are times when I’m like, I just don’t want to make a decision. In this, like what we have for dinner or where we’re going tonight.

[00:16:05] Brandon Ware: But then the responsibility that that puts onto you on my partner. And I’m like, okay, you know what? I got to put on my, my, my big boy pants, my big person pants. And I got to start making some decisions here. And I got to start making, you know, being accountable and being prepared to disappoint or upset you or any of those things.

[00:16:19] Brandon Ware: And those are the negatives. I mean, it could turn out on the other way, right?

[00:16:21] Jess O’Reilly: And isn’t all bickering really about food in relationships? Or is that only for like Asians? Is that just because of me? I don’t feel, I feel like if you had a partner who was like you, you guys would just eat your salad out of a bag every day, salad and dry crackers.

[00:16:36] Brandon Ware: And I know what your favorite food is, so I can just make it every day. And it’s the easiest thing to make. It’s the easiest thing. It’s a bowl of rice. I know you love the smell of rice. I love it. So it’s like. I’m being an idiot when I’m like,

[00:16:45] Jess O’Reilly: if you didn’t know, if you don’t know that that’s true, you might think that he’s just, uh, being stereotypical, but actually it is my favorite.

[00:16:51] Jess O’Reilly: I love a bowl of plain white rice,

[00:16:54] Brandon Ware: the rice cooker on and you’re just like, Oh my gosh, the house smells so good.

[00:16:57] Jess O’Reilly: Do you know how long it took me to even admit that? Because they used to call me rice girl growing up. Cause I was Chinese. So like to even admit I’m having a moment here, but that that’s another conversation.

[00:17:06] Jess O’Reilly: Let’s go. Because I can’t get into that right now. Let’s go back to. Always take some responsibility and I brought up the dynamics because I think about like what we might bicker about like what we’re gonna have for dinner and then you’re like, I just want you to have what I want. And I’m like, okay, but in doing so it all falls on me.

[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: And so that’s why I started thinking about dynamics because sometimes it’s a little tiny thing and sometimes it’s an underlying issue. Or like you said, it’s some sort of a groove that we need to address, which is, I think, a bit of a different conversation. But can you take some responsibility? And here’s something for people like me who suck at this.

[00:17:38] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. No, even if I can’t admit to Brandon that I was wrong and that I, that I’m taking some responsibility, which is stage two. Okay. I’m still on stage one. Can I at least admit it to myself after, and can I maybe make a note of it? And can I maybe a day later, two days later, or 16 years later, go back and say like, okay, I, I take some [00:18:00] responsibility here.

[00:18:00] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And I mean, for me, I don’t, once the situation has been somewhat resolved. I’m not holding, I’m trying not to, and I don’t think I do hold on to that. I need you to come back and apologize or take responsibility or accountability. So when I have no ego, no, that may be the case, but it’s the bigger issue for me is I want to resolve whatever it is we’re arguing or bickering about.

[00:18:19] Brandon Ware: So I’m looking at a big picture level where I’m like. Let’s just find the root issue. Let’s resolve it. If you want to take accountability at that time for it, great. If you don’t, did we resolve it? Did I take responsibility for my part in it? Move on.

[00:18:33] Jess O’Reilly: I think the reason you may not care is because you don’t feel issues around power in this relationship.

[00:18:38] Jess O’Reilly: which is why the underlying issues actually do matter to bickering, right? And so that’s something we haven’t talked about. The fact that you may be having these little fights for many, many reasons, but one of the reasons may be that there are some underlying issues or dynamics you want to address.

[00:18:53] Brandon Ware: Mm hmm.

[00:18:54] Jess O’Reilly: Right? So like, for example, you may not care if I don’t admit I’m wrong in the moment because you’re, you don’t have issues around power and between the two of us, there aren’t issues around power. Right? Like it’s fairly egalitarian. Of course, nothing is 50 50, but we both feel pretty safe. And so if there is a deeper issue, then you definitely do want to look at that.

[00:19:12] Jess O’Reilly: If we go back to bickering, so we’ve covered four different approaches so far. Be quiet and listen. The 99 rule. Write down what you want. Write down your resolutions. And number four is take some responsibility. And we, we got to keep moving here. Number five, this is kind of a practical one. When the bickering or the tension starts, can you change something?

[00:19:31] Jess O’Reilly: Can you change positions? Can you change locations? We have a wealth of research. Showing how environment affects emotion and a lot of research in the area of creativity. And I think creativity is actually really important to conflict resolution or to just kind of calming the situation. So there’s a Stanford study that found that when you walk, it boosts creative inspiration and they looked at creative creativity levels while people were walking versus while they were seated and apparently creative output increased by an average of 60%.

[00:19:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:20:00] When walking and other studies have found that brain activity, absorption of information, positive emotional experience, all of these things are higher when you work out outdoors versus indoors. So these are just some examples. Like, can you resolve this over a walk? Can you move around? Can you, you know, I have some clients who will lie down, down on the floor.

[00:20:18] Jess O’Reilly: To deal with conflict so that they’re just, there’s this awareness that we’re engaging in this right now. So is there something you can change to release the tension?

[00:20:27] Brandon Ware: I think you also have to be receptive to your partner’s need. Like in a lot of ways, when we first incorporated this into some of our discussions, I think I assumed that you were being rude or dismissive or aloof to what it is that was happening.

[00:20:41] Brandon Ware: Because I like to move around. Because you like to move around. Yeah. And then we were able to resolve the conflict. And I found myself in other circumstances doing the same. You know what? I’m feeling nervous. I’m feeling anxious. Whatever it is. Get up. Move around. Do three squats. Just. Kind of skip on the skip on the spot for 10 seconds.

[00:20:57] Brandon Ware: And it really did change things for me. So it’s also being receptive and understanding to your partner might need to do this to help them assuage some of that or diminish some of that anxiety that they’re feeling.

[00:21:07] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And I think it can sound kind of hokey, right? Like, Oh, we need to change locations, but it does something like, again, like I’m citing just a couple of studies.

[00:21:15] Jess O’Reilly: There are hundreds, probably thousands that look at how environment affects how we feel next to number six. Joke around another area where the data and research is voluminous. So when we use positive or adaptive humor, so what that’s in opposition to say negative or maladaptive humor, that’s tends to be more aggressive.

[00:21:33] Jess O’Reilly: We know that relationship satisfaction is higher and actually want to do a whole podcast on humor in relationships because I think it’s so important

[00:21:39] Brandon Ware: and because your partner is so hilarious.

[00:21:45] Jess O’Reilly: You’ll also hear this thing tossed around about five to one, the ratio of positive to negative interaction. That theory from the Gottmans, the Gottmans have their own stuff going on, whether the evidence is peer reviewed or empirical. But to me, it’s [00:22:00] not just about positive to negative interactions. I think it’s about the capacity to have some levity, have some light, have some maybe laughter, maybe some joy in the face of tension.

[00:22:09] Jess O’Reilly: I think there’s real power. Not only is it disarming. We know that laughter comes from, it was an evolutionary holdover that signaled safety, but it’s also a matter of joy. And I think in the face of any distress, joy is exactly what we need. Right. And I think again, with humor, you have to use it mindfully and sparingly.

[00:22:29] Jess O’Reilly: You can’t, you know, if your partner’s upset about something, you can’t make fun of them, which would be more maladaptive humor. But if we can laugh at ourselves lightly, like, especially for me to laugh at myself is one thing for you to laugh at yourself as another. I think that we have the capacity to laugh at ourselves as a unit where we’re like, what is wrong with us?

[00:22:46] Jess O’Reilly: Like, why are we doing this?

[00:22:48] Brandon Ware: I’m going to go back to the popsicle incident. When we took a moment just to take a beat and think about it, I’m like, you know, that we’re getting into a massive argument over popsicles and, and I’m like, this is ridiculous and I don’t know that that really, you know, made us feel any better in that moment, but probably a few seconds later, I know I felt better thinking about it.

[00:23:05] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, no, I think we’re able to calm ourselves with humor again, though. The underpinnings of that are safety and understanding and commitment and trust. And also, I think somebody asked me the other day, how much of relationships is the work you do with yourself versus the work you do with your partner?

[00:23:20] Jess O’Reilly: And of course I gave two made up answers. Cause I don’t know the answer. Like, is it 80, 20? Is it 50, 50, but it is also about healing our own childhood wounds. Right? Like if I haven’t taken care of my stuff that has to do with trauma or triggers or just even those can be very strong words. Okay. So I might just say sensitivities and experiences because it may not apply to everybody.

[00:23:41] Jess O’Reilly: Then how am I going to feel safe with you? How am I going to know that even though we’re fighting, we’re going to be fine. Even though. I’m actually being ridiculous. Like I suck right now. He’s still going to love me. And so depending on, you know, what your early relationships looked like, depending on what early attachment look like, those can all affect how we [00:24:00] respond today.

[00:24:00] Jess O’Reilly: So it’s not just coupled work. It’s also individual work.

[00:24:03] Brandon Ware: I get really, I get bothered when people are like, Oh, relationships, if it’s meant to be, you’re soulmate and it’s easy and there’s no work. And, and I often think to myself, like, what in life do you do that doesn’t require some investment of effort?

[00:24:16] Brandon Ware: Like you, you want to stay healthy, you need to go to the gym or you need to be mindful of what you eat

[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: and you get to,

[00:24:21] Brandon Ware: and yes,

[00:24:22] Jess O’Reilly: like you get to go to the gym, you get to move your body like these are all,

[00:24:26] Brandon Ware: but if you, you want to excel at work, you’ve, you, you put in the effort, you put in the, you know, you put in the time you put in, you work at it, so I don’t know why the relationship has to be any different and not only the relationship, but all the, also the relationship that you have with yourself.

[00:24:38] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And again, I think there’s this continuum or. Okay. these shades we have to be aware of, that we don’t have to be perfect, we don’t have to fix everything, like, we live in this world, we do what we do, and we want to have ease every day, we’re fortunate and privileged to have joy every day, we’re fortunate to have safety, we’re fortunate to have love, we’re fortunate to have a roof over our head, and like, Brandon and I living in a In a city that’s mostly peaceful, like we’re very, very fortunate.

[00:25:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I want to move on so we can get to the preventative stuff. The last piece around dealing with it in the moment involves really understanding and differentiating between conversation killers and conversation openers, right? So that involves changing your language when you bicker. So it’s so easy to say things like you always, you never, I guess we’ll just do it myself.

[00:25:22] Jess O’Reilly: No one listens to me anyway. You’re going to do it your way, no matter what. And all of those generalizations. That end a conversation because nobody can argue with that. But if we can shift the language a little too, not in a condescending way, but I feel, I struggle with, can I ask something of you? I need to take a beat.

[00:25:39] Jess O’Reilly: Would you consider, how would you feel about, like if we can train ourselves to just have those words roll off our tongue more easily, we’re going to have fewer conversation killers, more openers. And we’re probably going to be met with, with more ease, with more grace, with more thoughtfulness.

[00:25:55] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I agree.

[00:25:57] Brandon Ware: I’m thinking, Oh, excuse me, everything that [00:26:00] you said in the first, that first round of conversation killers. I’m like, yeah, I’ve said all those,

[00:26:04] Jess O’Reilly: all of us.

[00:26:05] Brandon Ware: I’ve said, Oh, for sure. I have,

[00:26:06] Jess O’Reilly: but don’t you think less now than 20 years ago, 10 years ago, we, we met this couple and it’s funny. Um, I was messaging with him.

[00:26:14] Jess O’Reilly: I can say his first name, how the other day on LinkedIn. And I remember they were a lot older than us. Yep. And I remember him saying something along the lines of, do you remember what it was? Like you, you work at it in your twenties and thirties so that you can thrive in your forties and fifties. Is that what he said?

[00:26:28] Brandon Ware: It was, you earn, learn in your learning twenties, you learn thirties, you earn something like that. Or maybe it was thirties.

[00:26:34] Jess O’Reilly: So you were talking to him about business. I think I was talking about relationships and I definitely feel, and of course. Age doesn’t matter because it’s about the stage of your relationship.

[00:26:41] Jess O’Reilly: But again, data shows that couples argue less as time goes on. They’re not engaging in conflict as much. Hopefully it’s because they haven’t given up. But I think it’s because we learn to understand ourselves and one another. And I think that when I, when we start talking about conversation killers versus conversation openers, I’m thinking that the biggest hindrance To making this shift is time and a lack thereof because everything feels shorthand, right?

[00:27:05] Jess O’Reilly: We move so quickly. We read the one pagers. We don’t slow down to make time for what matters, which is, you know, relationships, health. And for a lot of us, like the work we’re doing for many of us. Centered around justice, for example. And so if we don’t make time to really engage and we’re busy and we’re in the kitchen and I can just picture like, you know, one of you is cooking, one of you is helping the kids with homework and there’s so much to do, you probably are still getting emails in the evening.

[00:27:31] Jess O’Reilly: And so you don’t really have the time to say like, you know. How would you feel about doing it this way or sitting down and having this conversation? Instead, we say things like, whatever, you’re going to do what you want anyway. Right. And I get that. Like we are, we all have been there. We all will be there.

[00:27:45] Jess O’Reilly: We never moved fully past it, but it really does speak to the value and the challenge of time. And that takes us back for me or takes us next to the preventative piece. Because I think that part of reducing bickering involves creating [00:28:00] the conditions to prevent it from arising. Or at least reduce its occurrence.

[00:28:04] Jess O’Reilly: Like you’re not going to eliminate it all together. And I think about some of like, I, when we were talking about this, before we got started, we were saying that bickering isn’t actually something we do a lot of.

[00:28:14] Brandon Ware: I would agree. We’ve get into arguments and we have

[00:28:16] Jess O’Reilly: deep, heavy arguments, popsicles, ice cream, rice, food.

[00:28:24] Jess O’Reilly: But what I was going to say is I think part of why we maybe don’t bicker as much, part of it is that I don’t think we have particularly stressful lives. We’re very, very lucky in that respect. Agreed. Okay. So that is privilege. And then another part of it is some of the work that we’ve done, the effort, the foundation we’ve built that’s really preventative.

[00:28:41] Jess O’Reilly: And so I was thinking about a number of preventative approaches to stop bickering. So to reduce annoyances. To be more physically affectionate, to have sex, to reduce your own stressors, to know your triggers, and to know your partner’s triggers. So that’s sort of the summary of what I have in mind. But when I think about the first one, reducing annoyances, like one thing I think about is, okay, so if something I do annoys you, it’s probably going to lead to more.

[00:29:06] Jess O’Reilly: Bickering. And so I think that that’s something that I see couples who are happy together do is try and annoy their partner less. Like I’m a very annoying person. And so I have to be mindful of like, what might annoy you? Are you going to tell me what I do to you?

[00:29:23] Brandon Ware: I know I joked around about it earlier, which is why you asked me today, but I didn’t, I don’t find like you annoy me very much.

[00:29:27] Brandon Ware: There are things that again, we argue and we fight, but I don’t feel annoyed by you. Very much.

[00:29:33] Jess O’Reilly: So I feel like if you, if something you do annoys me. Is this leading up to my annoyances? Yeah, I have a list, guys. I have a big list. Sorry, 42 items. No, I actually think I speak up about it. Now my annoyances aren’t things that I get mad about.

[00:29:45] Jess O’Reilly: So I joked about you being a splashy animal in the tub. Like I don’t know what he does in the bathroom, guys.

[00:29:50] Brandon Ware: We don’t have a tub. It’s the sink and I’m shaving. And the sink is like the size of a saucer. .

[00:29:56] Jess O’Reilly: A saucer.

[00:29:57] Brandon Ware: Yes. A

[00:29:58] Jess O’Reilly: for giant, maybe

[00:29:59] Brandon Ware: for [00:30:00] tea, but it’s, it’s

[00:30:01] Jess O’Reilly: it’s not the size of a tea saucer.

[00:30:02] Brandon Ware: It’s a small sink. Man. I’m gonna splash. I’m a splashy dude.

[00:30:06] Jess O’Reilly: I go into the bathroom. And it looks like he got into the sink and splashed around. And then he went into the shower and he took cups of water and threw them on the ceiling. That’s what it looks like. And so,

[00:30:17] Brandon Ware: but hold on, what did you add? What did I say to you? So immediately I, I checked my people pleasing.

[00:30:22] Brandon Ware: I’m like, no man. I’m like, I clean. I actually do. I feel like I clean up after, but there was a spot.

[00:30:27] Jess O’Reilly: Do you rinse away your

[00:30:28] Brandon Ware: water with water? I rinse it away with water, yeah. So you get the hose out, but. I do wipe these down, but clearly, uh, my surface looking,

[00:30:35] Jess O’Reilly: I missed a few spots. Okay. So it’s, well, my point though is because it’s something, so it doesn’t generally annoy me, but if my patience is running thin from other things, if I’m in a mood, I’ll notice that something that doesn’t bother me 49 times will bother me on the 50th time.

[00:30:51] Jess O’Reilly: So I mentioned to you the other day, I’m like, what are you doing here? Like, I don’t think I was really annoyed. And so what did you do? You got yourself a cloth to clean up. And you, you, he actually moved into the other bathroom that has a bigger sink.

[00:31:02] Brandon Ware: So what did you do? I moved the bathroom.

[00:31:05] Jess O’Reilly: It’s like four steps away.

[00:31:06] Jess O’Reilly: Anyhow, I do think that reducing annoyances, like if you can just be aware, maybe this is the same as triggers, but little things I think are important to, to just kind of be thoughtful about. How you, how you move about the day with your partner.

[00:31:21] Brandon Ware: But also rather than snapping back at you, I felt like I tried to listen.

[00:31:25] Brandon Ware: And then I also felt like I tried to come up with a solution, which was I’m going to grab a cloth and I’ll just keep it tucked away. And then after I’m finished splish splashing around, I’m a wipe it down. Problem solved. Do you know what I mean? It’s like, I’m receptive to what it is you’re saying. And I’m going to find a solution.

[00:31:39] Brandon Ware: Let’s move forward.

[00:31:40] Jess O’Reilly: Well, this sort of ties in with the last item on my list. So I’m going to skip there another preventative item, which is really about knowing your partner’s triggers. And I was thinking about, you use the word pivoting around people and you don’t want to be afraid of people or walking on eggshells, but I have observed that staying out of one [00:32:00] another’s way.

[00:32:01] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So, um, in the, in the trigger, in the more serious ways, how would, how do I say this? Staying out of each other’s way to know what the little things that really upset your partner is an important part of living together. And so I saw this with a couple we were traveling with. I don’t know if I talked about this last week, but I’ve been thinking about it.

[00:32:18] Jess O’Reilly: I think so. Something happened that was a little bit, not stressful, but annoying. Um, it had to do with The power going out where we were saying, and while he was working on fixing it, she said like, let’s stay out of his way. Cause this isn’t something that they keep basically stay out of his way. Cause this, I guess this is just something that he likes to do on his own.

[00:32:37] Jess O’Reilly: And I noticed like they’re a happily married couple. They’ve been together a long time. They have kids, they have a nice life. They seem to really love each other and get along really well. And I thought like, Oh, that’s really good that she’s just being mindful of the things that will maybe set him off.

[00:32:50] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying it would set him off. I actually don’t know. Cause I don’t. know them that well, but I do think that that’s something we do is we know the things that are here. It is that our partners are sensitive about. Sorry, it took me a while to find my language there, but if we know there’s something that they’re sensitive about, if we know that there’s something that might annoy them, if we know that there’s something that when they’re dealing with this, something they’re extra stressed, can we.

[00:33:13] Jess O’Reilly: Stay out of their way or do something to make it easier. And I also thinking, I think knowing when your partner wants you to help versus move away, get out of the way is so important. And I think maybe some people wouldn’t like that. Like the idea of staying out of your partner’s way might be something negative.

[00:33:29] Jess O’Reilly: But for me, and I’m not the arbiter of truth, but for me, I think it’s important to know, like I know. When you’re upset about certain things, you don’t want me to try and help.

[00:33:40] Brandon Ware: No, sometimes I feel like a, an emotional wide receiver, do you know? And in that you talked about pivoting and sometimes there’s going to be contact.

[00:33:47] Brandon Ware: So first of all, I know what the goal is. I want to get a touchdown. I want to solve the problem, whatever it is. Sometimes I’m going to have to do a 360 spin to avoid an issue. Sometimes I’m going to hit it head on. Sometimes there’s gonna be a little bit of contact, but at the end of the day, trying to get into that end zone and resolve the [00:34:00] problem.

[00:34:00] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just going to intercept. Sorry. I’m just going to intercept. You you using all these football analogies? I’m so fast. Did you just like come up with all football.

[00:34:07] Brandon Ware: I never even played football. No. But I was just thinking about it when you talked about pivoting and I’m like, sometimes there’s contact and sometimes you get a little stuck.

[00:34:15] Brandon Ware: But ultimately, if you know, if you are able to run downfield and catch that pass, you know, you’re going to have to do some pivoting. You’re going to hurdle, you know. But you’re working towards, you know, getting to the end zone.

[00:34:26] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:34:26] Brandon Ware: So we’re sharing a three point dunk in the end zone.

[00:34:30] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just gonna get a safety.

[00:34:32] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just gonna take a seat. That’s all I’m taking. All right. So yeah, I think that piece is important to know what sets your partner off to know their sensitivities. Maybe trigger isn’t a word that everybody likes, but I also think knowing your. Own is important, right? So that’s another one here. So I know that, cause if we go back to bickering, I’m not particularly bickery, but there is a certain time of the month where I’m more bickery.

[00:34:52] Jess O’Reilly: Is that a word? Yeah, I would agree. I have a stronger proclivity toward bickering. So I have to be aware when certain things are coming on. Like I know when my period is coming on, there’s like a 48 hour period. Where everything annoys me, where yes, if that splashiness is happening in the bathroom, I’ll be like, what the, why would he do this?

[00:35:09] Jess O’Reilly: Why would he leave this water? And then the other 28 days of the month, I don’t care. I also know sometimes there are people I have to deal with not very often who can set me off and who put me on edge and put you on edge. And so to be aware of that ahead of time can be really helpful because we can stop and take a moment to.

[00:35:24] Jess O’Reilly: Find joy. We can stop and take a moment to breathe. We can stop and take a moment to reconnect. We can stop and take a moment to say like, you know what, what we are fighting about may not be about this. It may be about this other thing that we’re worried about. And so I think we can have fewer, you know, I use the word bickering, conflict, fights, whatever the word is.

[00:35:42] Jess O’Reilly: If we’re kind of aware of what those triggers and sensitivity sensitivities are, and if we prepare for them.

[00:35:47] Brandon Ware: And as your partner, I know that because we’ve had these conversations about those, you know, 48 hours where you feel a little bit more, um, you know, you’ve got some, the blood’s flowing. What’s the word I’m looking for.

[00:35:58] Brandon Ware: Right. But. I [00:36:00] also try to work around you. I’m like, okay, I know that this is how you’re feeling right now. So I’m going to be a little bit more understanding. I’m going to be a little bit more giving. I’m going to be a little bit more affectionate with you. There’s, there’s two, two, two sides here.

[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: I love that.

[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: And it takes me to my next point. Cause we need to move this along, um, which is preventative is involves being more physically affectionate. This is another. area of research that shows both the benefits and the fact that we all say we’re laughing, laughing, I wish, lacking in physical affection, right? So we know that like when you’re physically affection, there’s a release of feel good hormones, right?

[00:36:33] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got oxytocin that boosts our mood. We’ve got a decrease in cortisol, which helps to, you know, cortisol, of course, is considered a stress hormone. We know that When you’re close to your partner physically, that the benefits aren’t just fleeting. So we know that, you know, with physical affection, we experience less stress, happier mood, not just in that moment, but the following day, we know that there are positive heart health benefits.

[00:36:55] Jess O’Reilly: Partners who receive more hugs tend to have lower blood pressure. We know that love and happiness are higher. We know that attraction increases when you express physical. affection. So when you express affection, physical affection, folks are more likely to see you as likable and trustworthy and composed.

[00:37:12] Jess O’Reilly: We know that actually relationship harmony is higher and conflict is lower when physical affection is high. Like there was a study of college students that found that those who spend more time cuddling are better equipped to resolve conflict. And when we talk about physical affection, we’re not talking about sex.

[00:37:30] Jess O’Reilly: Right? So I think it’s something like 83 percent of close physical affection in bed, even snuggles, don’t result in sexual activity for most couples. So it’s not just about getting to sex, but after physical affection, because I think you can, you can admit that, that like we feel more calm when we’re affectionate with each other.

[00:37:47] Jess O’Reilly: No,

[00:37:48] Brandon Ware: I definitely do.

[00:37:49] Jess O’Reilly: I hate being apart from you for that reason.

[00:37:51] Brandon Ware: Yeah, and I mean, it just feels good to listen to kind of tune in and to feel you because, you know, I always think about things like things change, right? Anything can change at any [00:38:00] given moment. So I’m always thinking I appreciate the opportunity to touch you, to feel you or, and to be with you.

[00:38:06] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely. And then there is sex. That’s another point, right? So if you invest in your sex life, you’re investing in your relationship. So I guess the bottom line is if you want to reduce. Some of these little conflicts or some of the bickering just want to make sure you’re investing in the relationship overall and sex is a part of that.

[00:38:23] Jess O’Reilly: And there is some research around sexual frequency and sexual satisfaction tied to relational satisfaction. And then finally, I think another really important preventative piece, I think this is so, so important and it ties in with everything we’ve been talking about. If you want to reduce bickering and conflict in relationships, you have to reduce your own stressors because patience, tolerance.

[00:38:45] Jess O’Reilly: Empathy, all of these are like muscles and they tire out. If you arrive at your relationship or your home, drain. It makes sense that you’re more on edge and it primes you for conflict. And of course we can’t eliminate all stress because you got to go to work and that can be stressful. You have to deal with people and that can be stressful.

[00:39:05] Jess O’Reilly: But what Can you reduce? And I would like to do a podcast if I can find the right expert on burnout. And I have this strategy that I’ve been utilizing for burnout for me that has really worked that I perhaps it takes a little bit to explain. So it’s shared in a future podcast. But what can you do to reduce your own stressors?

[00:39:23] Jess O’Reilly: Because oftentimes the people that you’re taking your stress out on the people in your household, Um, are not the source, not the primary source of your stress, but it can feel like they are. It’s easy to be like, well, it’s because he left splashes in the bathroom that I’m feeling this way when in fact it’s 16 other things.

[00:39:41] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that’s a really important piece to consider. And again, you know, in doing so in listening to this and considering some of these options, not doing them all right. I think there’s about. 13 on this list or 14 on this list, but thinking about one change you can make today to reduce bickering and to just bring more harmony into your life, whether it’s with a [00:40:00] partner, whether it’s with family members, and whether it’s with kids, you’re doing this huge service to people around you by modeling that behavior because most of us didn’t get to grow up with that modeled behavior.

[00:40:09] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s why I think, man, kids today are so amazing because, and not that our parents weren’t great. Like I have the greatest. Love and appreciation for all three of my parents, deep, deep appreciation. And I see the next generation of parents, like people who are about a little bit older than us. I’m seeing their kids kind of come of age, like 18, 19, 20, and how incredible they are at communicating, at navigating relationships, at leading.

[00:40:30] Jess O’Reilly: Empathy at seeing and understanding perspectives that are not their lived experience. And I think they’re going to change the world. And I think, listen, I always say, and it’s not marketing. Like I do think we can improve the world one relationship at a time. And that’s what we’re doing here. And that’s what you’re doing because.

[00:40:45] Jess O’Reilly: You’re investing, you’re listening, and I think that’s really amazing. Agreed. Not you, Brandon. I’m talking to you, listener. You’re fine too. Sorry, I’m great. All right, cool. All right. Brandon has a call, so we got to go. Let’s do it. All right. Thanks so much, folks, for listening. If you’re in the mood for pleasure, check out adamandeve.

[00:41:01] Jess O’Reilly: com. Use code DRJESS50 to save 50 percent off almost any single item, plus free shipping and rush handling. Have a great one.

[00:41:18] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.

In this Q&A, Jess and Brandon weigh in on listener queries related to “work spouses”, dealing with a partner who refuses to go to therapy and “love tattoos”:

“My husband has a coworker who introduced herself to me as his work wife. I didn’t even know how to respond. When I talked to him about it, he said she was just kidding around. I think it’s inappropriate. He says it’s no big deal. Who is right?”

“What do you do if your partner refuses; to go to therapy – but the relationship is on the rocks? Asking for a friend.”

“I just turned 18, and I’ve been dating a guy – who is a few years older than me. He comes from money, so he’s shown me a lot of things I’ve never seen before. It has only been a few months, and he wants me to get a matching tattoo. What should I do?”

Check out AdamAndEve.com and use code DRJESS50 to save 50% off almost any one item with FREE shipping.

And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 339

Candid Conversations: Managing the ‘Work Spouse’ and Therapy Avoidance

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your cohost, Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey, how are you doing?

[00:00:22] Jess O’Reilly: I’m good. I can see that you’re putting on a brave face. I am putting on a brave face.

[00:00:26] Jess O’Reilly: You know how I know you’re having a date.

[00:00:29] Brandon Ware: How? What’s my tell? What’s my tell? Is it Terry’s?

[00:00:33] Jess O’Reilly: It’s your, it’s your left peck. It’s my left peck. It’s your left peck. It’s that I saw the app from your ring on your phone and your stress was way up at the top.

[00:00:42] Brandon Ware: So I have an Aura ring and it monitors all your vitals and they just released a stress feature.

[00:00:48] Brandon Ware: I’m stressed out today.

[00:00:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, left peck going hard.

[00:00:51] Brandon Ware: I feel like some people need to talk it out with somebody other than me.

[00:00:55] Jess O’Reilly: So I think so many of us run into this. I’m not going to obviously speak specifically about your situation. I know what’s going on, but I think that sometimes you have people in your lives.

[00:01:05] Jess O’Reilly: Whether they be friends, or clients, or co workers, or just people in your family, who, they have their own anxiety, and they try and attenuate that anxiety through you. And I don’t mean they’re dumping their problems on you, but they may be actually, in your case, they are actually saying, here are my problems, fix them, even though you can’t.

[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: But, They expect you to kind of jump and dance and twist and twirl around their anxiety as though their urgency is your emergency.

[00:01:36] Brandon Ware: Ooh, that’s a good one. I have heard that before, but their urgency is my emergency. Yes.

[00:01:40] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s Luna who I first heard say that.

[00:01:42] Brandon Ware: Was that Luna? Luna Matadas?

[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: It rhymes, you know.

[00:01:44] Brandon Ware: It rhymes. I love that. She’s a rhymer. She’s a plumber. Uh, I, I would agree with that wholeheartedly, and I think once you start paying attention to that, it’s easier for me to realize that, Hey, listen, this isn’t my problem. This is your problem. And I want to support you. I’m going to be compassionate in [00:02:00] understanding maybe the situation that you’re going through, but also taking a step back and saying, you know what, though, at the end of the day, this isn’t my problem.

[00:02:05] Brandon Ware: This is your problem.

[00:02:06] Jess O’Reilly: Well, that’s the hard thing when you’re a natural people pleaser. So I learned something about myself this week, which is that a lot of my behavior. That involves not setting any boundaries for myself or pretending to set them and letting them all be violated has to do with anxiety and impulsivity where I feel like, Oh, this person’s upset.

[00:02:23] Jess O’Reilly: I better fix it for them.

[00:02:25] Brandon Ware: Agreed. And do you also find that that impulsivity, the immediate need to respond? It’s not, not only are you just impulsive in nature, but it’s like in your immediate need to respond to that inquiry.

[00:02:36] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. It’s like life is like an inbox and email inbox. And I just want to clear it and clear it and clear it as fast as I can.

[00:02:41] Jess O’Reilly: And one, one thing that I’ve learned.

[00:02:43] Brandon Ware: Hold up. Hold up, hold up. You want to clear that inbox? How many unread messages do you have in your email inbox? I’m doing my best. No, no, no. I want to know. Is it, is it over a hundred? Okay, yes, but… Is it, is it over a thousand? Okay, yes. Is it over two thousand?

[00:02:58] Jess O’Reilly: It is not over two thousand five hundred thirty nine.

[00:03:02] Jess O’Reilly: Phew. No, but can I just tell you why that is? Because you don’t actually see my email. You just see the icon. Rain your logic down. Oh my gosh, we have no focus here. It’s because an old inbox got imported in. It’s not like there’s 2000 messages I need to get to. There are probably like five messages I need to get to.

[00:03:21] Jess O’Reilly: I swear. I don’t, I don’t let my inbox pile up. I like to clean it out.

[00:03:25] Brandon Ware: I’m just playing with you. I know that you do. And I know that that was reason. Did you? I didn’t know that was the exact reason, but I figured that there must have been a reason. Even for me, I have 50, well actually I have 27 unread emails.

[00:03:36] Brandon Ware: And I definitely want to get through them all. And when I feel like if I get through them, I’ve accomplished something. But that’s not the case because that email inbox just continues to grow every day. But I will say that I love me a snooze button. Do you use the snooze button?

[00:03:49] Jess O’Reilly: No.

[00:03:50] Brandon Ware: Ooh, you gotta learn to use the snooze.

[00:03:52] Jess O’Reilly: Where you snooze people’s emails?

[00:03:53] Brandon Ware: You just snooze it. It’s just, it’s a reminder setting. I mean, I use a CRM, a database management system, to help me, you know, stay organized, but at the [00:04:00] same time, that snooze button? Love it.

[00:04:02] Jess O’Reilly: So what does it do? Like, the email comes back after a certain amount of time?

[00:04:05] Brandon Ware: Yeah, it’ll just show back up.

[00:04:07] Brandon Ware: Uh, in your email inbox. Yeah, it’s great. So you can set the snooze reminder. Is that through Gmail. Later in the day, a week later, a month later. It’s amazing. I love it.

[00:04:14] Jess O’Reilly: March 2026? Yeah. That’s when I want to get to your email.

[00:04:16] Brandon Ware: I’ll snooze you to, to never.

[00:04:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Okay, we totally got off track. Cause I, I had asked you about the stress because I wanted to ask you about stress management.

[00:04:25] Jess O’Reilly: And then I veered into my own stuff around impulsivity. I’m going to tell you my one lesson that I’m kind of focused on this week. And that is to slow down before I respond. Slow down before I respond to work emails, to personal messages, to requests from family, to requests from friends, just to take a breath.

[00:04:42] Jess O’Reilly: And I have Carla, my therapist, in my head, who’s like, why do you have to do everything right away? Why do you, and as I said, it’s because I want that inbox empty other than the 200, 500, 2, 538 emails that are okay on red. So, I’m curious about you and stress management, because I see you smiling there. The weird smile?

[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: So, I know that you’re having a stressful afternoon. How are you coping? You took your shirt off.

[00:05:05] Brandon Ware: I did take my shirt off to attenuate some of the sweat that had been, uh, you know, accumulating.

[00:05:12] Jess O’Reilly: Will we get more listens if… We put video because you’re doing this topless.

[00:05:16] Brandon Ware: I am wearing a tank top and I don’t know if it’s the sexiest of tank tops But hey,

[00:05:20] Jess O’Reilly: it’s an undershirt as we say in jamaica.

[00:05:22] Jess O’Reilly: It’s a marina.

[00:05:22] Brandon Ware: It’s a marina What am I doing to attenuate my stress? I’m not doing much. That’s the truth I have a number of strategies that I normally employ right now I think i’m just i’m kind of ruminating in the stress, but you said something that was really great Which was take a beat before you reply back and I have found myself trying to do that My natural tendencies to fire back right away.

[00:05:46] Brandon Ware: I have quick thumbs Even I open my mouth sometimes and I think after why didn’t I just wait like five minutes? And I have tried to employ that. I know you probably haven’t noticed this but even in conversation. I [00:06:00] have thought to myself I don’t need to chime in right now. I need to wait. I need to focus and actively listen to what you’re saying and just Hold my commentary until you’re done.

[00:06:09] Brandon Ware: Whatever it is you’re saying and that’s helped given me a bit of clarity Even just in formulating my thoughts because I get to listen and really pay attention to you So i’m not doing anything right now to attenuate my stress I had thought about going and doing some physical activity. I did think about going to the gym, but I didn’t think I had enough time.

[00:06:28] Brandon Ware: You have time tonight. I have time later, definitely. But that was something that crossed my mind. And then, I mean, I have a number of other strategies that I can employ. I just didn’t. I mean, breathing. I’ve noticed that I pay attention to my physical response. I know that my physiological response through therapy and with assistance from my therapist been, you know, really focusing in on how I feel.

[00:06:47] Brandon Ware: Physically feel and noticing those feelings

[00:06:49] Jess O’Reilly: and if you don’t notice the ring will notice and if I don’t off the charts

[00:06:53] Brandon Ware: I love that data I really do appreciate because I feel like I can marry the psychological components with the physiological components and I like To understand I like to understand number one and I also like to think that I might be able to control some of that So there’s a physical physical activity checking in, you know, breathing is a big one for me

[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: What about your top and your tail?

[00:07:13] Jess O’Reilly: My top and my tail? You’re supposed to check in with your head and your tail. Oh, yeah. As your butthole trunk. Skunk to trunk. No, that’s something different. That’s the perineum. That’s from the butt to the penis.

[00:07:24] Brandon Ware: I thought the trunk was maybe, you know, like your neck.

[00:07:27] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, I didn’t know that. No, I’m pretty sure…

[00:07:29] Brandon Ware: How do I know? The skunk to trunk. I’m pretty sure the trunk is something else. Ah, yes. How’s your butthole? Now that I’m thinking about it… Relaxed.

[00:07:38] Jess O’Reilly: How’s your forehead?

[00:07:38] Brandon Ware: Tense.

[00:07:39] Jess O’Reilly: Cause your vein is out.

[00:07:40] Brandon Ware: Is the vein? I have a vein that pops out as soon as I’m intense.

[00:07:44] Jess O’Reilly: Alright, I think we need to cut off enough about Brandon.

[00:07:47] Jess O’Reilly: I was trying to get to one thing, we went to a whole bunch because we have a bunch of questions actually we’re going to answer. The first one’s from a young person so I really want to get to this because hopefully I get to the answer. Before they get to the tattoo,[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: I hope not. I hope not. So before we dive into that question, we’ve got Adam and Eve. com who have reactivated the Dr. Jess 50 discount. So if you are in the market for lingerie, for vibrators, for dildos, for butt plugs, for King gear, for sex furniture, for lube, and anything. To do with pleasure, Adam and eve.com has you covered and you can save 50% off almost any single item plus free shipping, plus free rush handling with code Dr.

[00:08:30] Jess O’Reilly: Jess 50 and Doctor is shortened to Dr. So check that [email protected]. Alright, uh, our first question is from an 18 year old and I’m hoping that I’m answering it urgently enough. Here we go. I just turned 18 and I’ve been dating a guy who’s a few years older than me. He comes from money, so he’s shown me a lot of things I’ve never seen before.

[00:08:54] Jess O’Reilly: It’s only been a few months and he wants me to get a matching tattoo. Why are you laughing?

[00:09:00] Brandon Ware: I’m not. I’m listening. I’m taking a beat.

[00:09:02] Jess O’Reilly: Are you taking a beat? Oh, well, first of all, your body, you do what you want. And I’ve, I’ve actually come across a question similar to this when I was doing interviews on celebrities in the past.

[00:09:13] Jess O’Reilly: And, you know, one thing that Always comes to mind is that when you commit to something like a tattoo, I think it intensifies the pressure on the relationship, but not the pressure to invest in the relationship, not the pressure to thrive and ensure that the relationship is fulfilling, but the pressure to stay together.

[00:09:30] Jess O’Reilly: And that can be really overwhelming. So I’m wondering if you can wait it out a bit because you’ve taken the time to DM me, thank you, which means you’re not being impulsive about it and you know it’s not you’re out one night and you decide to do it like I would do. So I’m wondering if taking a little more time to contemplate is that doable for you and if you decide to hopefully you stand behind it but I just wonder what the benefits of a tattoo might be right now.

[00:09:56] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s a great answer. Yeah. You know, I remember this with, is it [00:10:00] Pete Davidson and Kim Kardashian? Could be. I think that, that’s the correct name. And I always think about the parallels, you know, that piece around one of you having money or both of you in this case for, for the celebrities and when the necessities of life are…

[00:10:13] Jess O’Reilly: all taken care of at this kind of extreme or superfluous level. So often we’ll start to seek thrills and take risks that other people who have to actually look out for basic needs and safety can’t imagine. And so I’m thinking about, you know, this, this guy comes from money and sometimes those risks can be physical, like, you know, purposefully seeking.

[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: Pain, which can in fact be pleasurable in the right context with the rush of endorphins and adrenaline. And they can also be emotional too, like diving headfirst into relationships with someone new and maybe not always checking in to see if they’re, you know, on board or in line with you. So, If you want to get the tattoo, of course, that’s your call and there’s no judgment, but I do think there’s value in waiting.

[00:10:54] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t want to say, no, just you’re young. Cause it’s not just that you’re 18. I get it. And I think it’s great that you’re seeing some new, exciting things. I also think it’s great that you’re recognizing that maybe there are some levels of potential inequity in the relationship if he’s a little bit older and he has a little bit more money.

[00:11:13] Jess O’Reilly: So just being aware of what that can lead to in terms of, in terms of influence.

[00:11:18] Brandon Ware: I just want to comment on how mature I think this person is to be 18 years old and reaching out for advice and reflecting on this and and even just thinking this through and I think it’s great that they’re doing it I think back to the ideas I had all my friends were getting tattoos 16 17 18 years old and man I think back though to the idea some of the some of the things that I wanted to get tattooed when I was 18.

[00:11:39] Brandon Ware: Was it a barbed wire? I know it wasn’t a barbed wire but it might have been an airwalk symbol or it might have been like Calvin and Hobbes or something and I’m like the shoe yeah man and I’m like I am so glad that I just waited a little bit. You didn’t even skateboard. I snowboarded a long time ago.

[00:11:57] Brandon Ware: Was airwalk a I don’t know man, like maybe it [00:12:00] was. Listen, I didn’t get it, that’s my point. I’m very happy that I didn’t get anything. I still think that, you know, a lot of my friends are very happy with the art, the ink that they have. And perhaps this person will be too. I’m just very thankful that I, I took a beat.

[00:12:13] Brandon Ware: And didn’t get what I wanted to get at that point.

[00:12:16] Jess O’Reilly: I know so many people who have had tattoos removed. So many people Or covered. Yeah, or covered. It’s a big industry, actually. I think it’s a very, very profitable industry. Anyhow, you do what’s right for you, and I love the idea of taking a beat here. Okay, I have another question from another younger listener, uh, who provides quite a bit of context, but the short version is, What do I do about an uncle who is mean to my face right at the dinner table?

[00:12:38] Jess O’Reilly: He’ll criticize me, he’ll mock me. I don’t know how to deal with him. or make it stop. That sucks. I’m really sorry. And you don’t deserve that and you don’t have to put up with it. And I know it’s not as easy as I think sometimes, you know, in some of the chat groups I’m in, people will say, just speak your mind, you know, tell them to stop, stand up for yourself, set your boundaries.

[00:12:56] Jess O’Reilly: But if you’re writing in, it’s because maybe you don’t feel comfortable doing that. Right. And so I wonder who the allies are in your family. who might have a different relationship with your uncle and can potentially stand up to him. Maybe because of their age, maybe because of their role, maybe because of their status in the family, maybe because of their gender.

[00:13:16] Jess O’Reilly: I wonder if you can let them know what’s happening if they aren’t seeing it. Maybe they’re not picking up on just how harmful his comments are. And ask them If they’ll stand up, however you feel comfortable. Like maybe you want them to speak to him privately. Maybe you want them to intervene. Maybe you want them to stand up at the table and say cut that out.

[00:13:37] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you’d rather them do it in a lighter way. I think you have to figure out what you’re comfortable with because sometimes in the past where I, when I haven’t been comfortable standing up for myself, somebody else stepped in and it’s made me feel worse. Because I’m so conflict averse or I don’t, I didn’t feel like conflict was safe in that space.

[00:13:55] Jess O’Reilly: So just look for those allies and think about what it is you want them to do for you.

[00:13:59] Brandon Ware: Well, [00:14:00] hopefully this person has the opportunity to also not attend those family gatherings. And I’m not saying that they do, but it would be, you know, maybe somebody else will pick up on it when you start realizing that I’m not gonna show up.

[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that is a way of communicating. Withdrawal is a form of communication. And especially if you feel they’re being abusive and it’s adversely affecting how you feel about yourself, which I imagine it is if you’ve sent me this note. Uh, you, you have choice around those boundaries, hopefully. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t.

[00:14:26] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you live in the home where the, maybe you all live together, I don’t know. So can you set boundaries and not spend time with them? Like maybe you don’t skip every family function, but maybe you bring a friend or a partner as a buffer. Maybe you sit on a different side of the room. Maybe you tell them like you’re not engaging with it and you have to kind of figure out what works, works for you.

[00:14:44] Jess O’Reilly: One thing that I’ve seen with young people communicating with aunties and uncles and usually intergenerational communication in families. Sometimes it’s effective to write a letter or an email or a text to kind of more clearly communicate what you’re feeling and make really specific requests, right?

[00:15:01] Jess O’Reilly: Like, you know, stop referring to me by that rude nickname or stop joking about that incident or I don’t want to be called this sometimes reading it in writing. Can be helpful. And I think we have to also be sensitive to the fact that if your uncle’s older than you, which they usually are, he may not be responsive.

[00:15:16] Jess O’Reilly: If you call him out in front of everyone, right, that could be more explosive. And you have to be mindful of what kind of support you’re going to get. And I don’t know what your situation is, but I do hope that you take some action, that you have someone who’s an ally or that, and, or that you can speak up and set some boundaries.

[00:15:30] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I hope so too. And it’s easy to look in from the outside and say, just do this. I see that all the time. Just do this, just do that. And it’s like, well, you’re not there. So. You know, in this context or in this environment, I’m not comfortable. I like the idea of, of just maybe giving somebody who is an ally, somebody that you do trust a little nudge and be like, would you mind just hanging out with me at this family function today?

[00:15:48] Brandon Ware: Because in the past, you know, I’ve been made to feel really crappy by Uncle Dick.

[00:15:53] Jess O’Reilly: Uncle Dick. You know, I’m thinking about some of the things that folks in, in our families, let’s just say, have said to [00:16:00] me over the years and how I always just laughed it off. because it felt more comfortable than standing up to them and because in the moment my people pleasing impulsivity is how do I make this less awkward for everyone else rather than how do I make this safe for myself so I think that we have to kind of think about okay so how do I prioritize my safety here as well

[00:16:19] Brandon Ware: and as you said my the problem that I have is that I, my response is going to be very explosive.

[00:16:25] Brandon Ware: When I think about the circumstances where somebody might have said or done something, I think of, you know, being more confident and being more self assured of my beliefs and my, my core values today. I think if somebody did say something, I’m with certain people, I, I’d. fly off the handle like I’d have to do what you said before, which is take a beat

[00:16:41] Jess O’Reilly: and think about if you’re supposedly standing up for me, are you doing it in a way that’s supportive of me or supportive of yourself.

[00:16:47] Brandon Ware: And that’s what I was I was going towards, which is, am I just making things worse for you?

[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. I thank you for your question. I hope I hope it works out and you can have some good meals without all the nonsense. Okay, next topic is also from a fairly young couple. They’re newly wed and she says, my husband.

[00:17:04] Jess O’Reilly: has a coworker who just introduced herself to me as his work wife. I didn’t even know how to respond. When I talked to him about it after, he said she’s just kidding around. I think it’s inappropriate. He says it’s no big deal. Who is right?

[00:17:20] Brandon Ware: You ever had somebody refer to you as their work wife?

[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: No one would want me as a work wife.

[00:17:24] Jess O’Reilly: There’s no, no one even wants to work with me. Come near me. But you, do you remember years ago? I do remember. You worked with someone who we both knew and they were, I would, like a friend ish and a friendly acquaintance. And they called you. She said you were her work husband, and to me, that’s not something that personally bothered me, but it bothered you.

[00:17:47] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I spoke up.

[00:17:47] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:17:48] Brandon Ware: And it was more the principle. It’s like, we are friends, this is, there is no sort of intimate relationship between us, so I don’t want you to call me your work husband. You were just afraid. Because I’m not. [00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Jess O’Reilly: You were afraid all of them are going to start calling you their work husband.

[00:18:02] Brandon Ware: No, I, I, I felt like it crossed a line. Okay. I felt that it was… I felt it was inappropriate and I understand that it was just a joke and I understand that there was nothing about our relationship that could have been interpreted any other way. But for me, it was just, I’m not going to play this game. And I wanted to nip it in the bud.

[00:18:23] Jess O’Reilly: Do you think you would feel that way universally? Or do you think that it was that specific circumstance?

[00:18:29] Brandon Ware: No, I think I would feel that way universally.

[00:18:33] Jess O’Reilly: This man only wants one wife. He’s like, I do not want a second wife, a third wife.

[00:18:37] Brandon Ware: I’m happy with

[00:18:38] Brandon Ware: the one I got. I am over the moon.

[00:18:40] Jess O’Reilly: You’ve got your hands full.

[00:18:41] Brandon Ware: I’ve got my hands full, for sure.

[00:18:44] Jess O’Reilly: No more wives. I’m gonna get you a t shirt that says no more wives. No more wives. So this person says, I think it’s appropriate. He says, it’s no big deal who is right. So I don’t think I have the answer on who is right, but I do think about relationships and labels and how consent is so important.

[00:19:02] Jess O’Reilly: And so if he says it’s a joke, I would hope that all parties involved enjoy the joke and then go ahead and joke away, but if it’s making one of you. Presumably the person who’s more important to him because you’re his actual partner in life that he lives with. If it’s making you uncomfortable, and in some way is, I don’t know, like I don’t want to say undermining your relationship with him.

[00:19:23] Jess O’Reilly: I would hope that he would at least be open to that conversation around, yeah, maybe this isn’t right. Now, he can’t control. What she does nobody can control your feelings. You’re allowed to feel however you want And it sounds like they might have a fairly close relationship at work And if that’s the case you would think that He would also want you guys to potentially get along because you’ve already met her It sounds like, and I’m sure you’re going to see her again.

[00:19:48] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that there are ways to express appreciation for close relationships that make all parties comfortable. And I’m, listen, I get it. Not everybody just has one partner. Some [00:20:00] people have multiple partners. But if you only have one partner and you only have one husband and you only have one wife, I get why you might not want somebody else to use that title.

[00:20:07] Jess O’Reilly: Do you have control? Are you right? Like, do you have the moral higher ground? I don’t think so. But I, what I do think is that if you prioritize. Your personal relationships probably over your workplace relationships. You probably, he probably wants to hopefully make you feel a bit more comfortable and at least show you some support in this respect.

[00:20:25] Jess O’Reilly: Did I kind of dodge that question? I’m not trying to dodge it.

[00:20:28] Brandon Ware: The question, I think you answered it. I have something to add, like, what about even the idea of a workplace brother or workplace sister or workplace sibling? Could that not replace the idea of workplace? Partner, or spouse, or husband, or wife.

[00:20:40] Jess O’Reilly: It could be your work sister wife.

[00:20:42] Brandon Ware: Your work sister wife, yeah, for sure. But, even the idea of a husband or wife, to me, there’s a, there’s a sexual element, there’s an intimate element to it. So, would you be okay… With a sibling instead like I just that’s where my mind goes Like I’m just kind of going down and I’m not saying hey, listen, you need to go and be like no You’re my workplace sibling.

[00:21:04] Brandon Ware: But if you want to have that close of a relationship, why does it need why can’t it be? Sibling rather than you know a partner

[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t really think about it that way. And I guess it does have to do with personal values, like what is a husband to you, what is a wife to you, what is a sibling to you.

[00:21:18] Jess O’Reilly: But bottom line, if you’re not comfortable with it, I really hope he’s open to that conversation and at least showing you some support. Again, he can’t force her to stop. But he can express his discomfort with it. He can be like, eh, I only got one wife. Like, it’s kind of an easy thing to say. He doesn’t need to sit her down and say, you know what, my wife said that this is how it makes her feel and I’m gonna be on my wife’s side.

[00:21:37] Jess O’Reilly: I think that it’s usually easy to diffuse the situation. Like, I’m thinking about… when you had that situation. You were just like, Hey, don’t call me that. It wasn’t a letter you wrote her.

[00:21:46] Brandon Ware: It was short and sweet. And I mean, I think now that I think about it, I would be like, Hey, I don’t need another wife, but I could use a, I could use a sister.

[00:21:53] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t think it affected your relationship when you said it, did it? Not at all. Like you guys are still friendly. Yeah. Okay. Well, good luck with that. [00:22:00] Ah, all right. Now we have a question that I know I’ve received before. And this one, they actually signed it asking for a friend. What do you do if your partner refuses to go to therapy but the relationship is on the rocks?

[00:22:13] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so this happens all the time. One partner wants to go to therapy, the other doesn’t. Uh, I always say please don’t let your partner’s resistance to therapy hold you back. If you think you can benefit from therapy as a couple, you can absolutely benefit from therapy on your own. So, if your partner refuses to go to therapy, quite simply, Go on your own, because a therapist can help you learn to identify and communicate what it is you want and need more effectively.

[00:22:38] Jess O’Reilly: They can help you to process your feelings, they can help you perhaps with more compassion for yourself and for your partner. It can help, I think a therapist can also help you to better understand your own triggers, explore all the different styles with which, and experience with which you approach this relationship.

[00:22:53] Jess O’Reilly: And, it helps you to work on yourself. And, I will say that sometimes, when one partner… Once the other to attend therapy with them, it can be motivated by a desire to change the partner, change your partner’s attitude, change your partner’s behavior, but that is not within your control. You can make adjustments to your own thoughts.

[00:23:11] Jess O’Reilly: You can adjust your own behavior. You can attenuate some of your reactions to your partner’s behavior. You can learn new skills that can improve your own functioning in the relationship. But, I don’t want to say that’s a wrap, but that’s, that’s really the focus of therapy itself. So, if they won’t go to therapy, you go and derive all those benefits, please.

[00:23:34] Jess O’Reilly: Now, if your partner refuses to work on the relationship more generally, That’s when we run into trouble and I think this is a really important and nuanced discussion because sometimes people will say well If they won’t go to therapy, they’re not invested in the relationship And I do want to challenge that because although I’m a proponent of therapy It’s also only one way to work on the relationship.

[00:23:55] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not the only way it’s one way to work on yourself But it’s not the only way so again you [00:24:00] see value in it go on your own, but your partner might not see value in it for many reasons, right? Therapy wasn’t designed for everyone. And you may not have access to a therapist who reflects your needs. So maybe your partner sees value in other approaches.

[00:24:16] Jess O’Reilly: So you want to make space for those as well. So if you’re not on the same page and you’re getting nowhere together without therapy, you can go to therapy, but also you want to kind of not keep doing what isn’t working. So if they won’t go to therapy, I think what I want to know is. What are they willing to do?

[00:24:32] Jess O’Reilly: Like, ask them, and I don’t mean in an accusatory, demanding, or judgmental way, but with real curiosity. So, if you didn’t want to go to therapy and I did, I might say something like, you know, I feel like we’re struggling, whether that’s generally or with a specific issue, and I love you and I want to make this work, and I remember when we were in sync and thriving in this respect, and I want to get back to that.

[00:24:54] Jess O’Reilly: I’m doing some work on myself in therapy, and I know you’re doing your part on your own. And I get that therapy isn’t your thing. I do. So I want to figure out what our thing can be. How can we work on this relationship or issue together? And that doesn’t mean that we close the book forever on therapy.

[00:25:10] Jess O’Reilly: Like, maybe I do want you to stay open to it because I do think facilitated conversations with someone who’s supportive of both of you can be helpful. But I try and figure out, okay, so they don’t want to take that route. What route do they want to take? And I have heard people kind of throw therapy in their partner’s faces.

[00:25:26] Jess O’Reilly: Like, well, you won’t even go to therapy or if you don’t want to do therapy, what is it you want to do? I’m not talking about that kind of approach. I really mean real. Curiosity.

[00:25:34] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I agree.

[00:25:34] Brandon Ware: I mean, learning about The colonial nature of therapy. I’ve come to realize that yeah, it’s not necessarily for everyone But just because you’re not doing it as you said doesn’t mean that you’re not doing something But I think what you said there really resonates with me, which is like what are you doing?

[00:25:51] Brandon Ware: What are you willing to do? Like I I don’t have anything else to add to this I just sitting here listening and on agreeing with everything that it is you have to say and hopefully your partner [00:26:00] is number one recognizes That there is a problem, that you’re out of sync. And then from there, hopefully a conversation will emerge where it’s like, as you said, like, this is what I’m willing to do.

[00:26:09] Brandon Ware: I’m not willing to go to therapy, but I’m willing to do this or do that. And hopefully you can get on board so that it gets better.

[00:26:14] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I mean, that might be working through a self help book. It might be working on conversations together to help you to better understand one another. I, it might be going to a workshop.

[00:26:23] Jess O’Reilly: It might be just making small changes to your daily routine. It kind of depends what the problem is, right? And I will say though, I see so often that people no longer want to work on their relationship. Like we do see couples arrive at this impasse where one person is like, how do we fix this? And the other one is like, like whatever.

[00:26:40] Jess O’Reilly: They’re just kind of resigned to live together unhappily or miserably or in an Non consensual sexless relationship or whatever the case may be. They’re like, well, we’re together now So that’s that and I do think that sometimes we take our partners for granted and we take the relationship for granted and we think That you know what we’ve been miserable for six years.

[00:26:59] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve been miserable for 11 years We haven’t been intimate or sexual in 12 years And again some people can opt into not having sex but I’m talking about people who are unhappy with being in sexless relationships And they think, well, we’ve gone this far. So subconsciously, or they’ve convinced themselves that in five years, they’ll still be together.

[00:27:15] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s not necessarily the case. Like there comes a point where people say, okay, I’ve got this short life to live. I would love to invest with a partner, but I, with my partner, but I want to invest with a partner who’s also invested. So if you’ve checked out of the relationship, just know that you can’t necessarily count on your partner staying.

[00:27:31] Brandon Ware: Well, for me, if you were to say that you’re not interested in working on something that was an issue for me, that would, I would, I would probably start to harbor some resentment there. And I feel like that would grow into something a lot bigger. Like it wouldn’t just be this one particular issue. It would probably expand and seep its way into other parts of our relationship.

[00:27:49] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s exactly what we see, right? Like it’s. It starts with one issue, and then it creeps into the bedroom, it creeps into the kitchen, it creeps into the living room, it creeps into every realm of the relationship. Now, having [00:28:00] said that, you don’t have

[00:28:00] Jess O’Reilly: to resolve every issue. That’s the other, like the flip side of this, that we’re seeing, I see oftentimes with kind of younger, newer couples, is that they want to solve every damn thing.

[00:28:10] Jess O’Reilly: They want to reconcile every damn difference. And I mean like little things. I’m not talking about big value stuff. And sometimes you just have to accept that you can’t have everything you want from a single partner, right? They can’t be everything. They can’t do everything. You can’t align on every value, but hopefully on the core ones.

[00:28:29] Jess O’Reilly: And again, hopefully you want your partner to have the best life possible, right? Again, that’s like my baseline. Am I with someone who wants the best life for me? And that is defined differently for you and me versus, you know, everybody else.

[00:28:42] Brandon Ware: Agreed. Bell hooks. What is love?

[00:28:45] Jess O’Reilly: Giving them space to grow.

[00:28:46] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Brandon Ware: Why? I mean, the way I interpret it was like just wanting that person to be the best version of themselves and supporting them to be that. I mean, it’s such a beautiful way to want for your partner.

[00:28:58] Jess O’Reilly: And it creates space for all different types of relationships. And that’s why when I get a question, like for example, the previous one about the work wife.

[00:29:04] Jess O’Reilly: I guess the other side is like, can we let go of some of this stuff? Can I be like, you know what, that upsets me, but I’m gonna get over it. ’cause sometimes stuff has happened over the course of our 22 or three years together where it’s like, okay, so that didn’t feel good. I don’t need to figure it all out and get to the root of it and always get an apology or always get you on my side.

[00:29:24] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes it’s like, oh, here’s this thing that happened and I’m just gonna deal with it. For sure.

[00:29:27] Brandon Ware: Things have happened. And, as you said, gotta move on. Otherwise we’d never stop talking. Ever. Absolutely. About anything.

[00:29:34] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and I think I’ve been very guilty of that in the past where like, a little thing is bothering me and then I bring it up and then it blows up into something bigger and I look back and I’m like, why did I even bring that up?

[00:29:44] Jess O’Reilly: Like, could I not have just, like, dealt with that in my head? Shut up and move on? Like a minor issue though. Yeah, a minor issue. Yeah, like I’ll bring, I used to bring up like every little thing and I think it comes back to perfectionism. Which is… The devil, like the devil in me, where trying to be [00:30:00] perfect is just always setting yourself up for failure.

[00:30:02] Jess O’Reilly: And I think there’s pressure on relationships today too, to be perfect.

[00:30:05] Brandon Ware: Well, because they’re in the spotlight too, right? It’s like you have to have this perfect relationship because it’s on, it’s, it’s in the spotlight all the time. If you’re on social, if you’re out, you know, and kind of comparing yourself to other people in other relationships.

[00:30:17] Jess O’Reilly: It’s become another status symbol, right? We talked about like they had trophy wives and then trophy children and then trophy marriages. And it’s not that I don’t see value in a fabulous partnership. Of course, like, I, I mean, I wouldn’t do this work if I didn’t love you and love life and love all of it.

[00:30:33] Jess O’Reilly: But this idea that it ought to be perfect all the time is just, it’s absurd. So, okay. I think we’re going to stop there. I have a whole bunch more questions and we’re going to have to save them for next week. But I do appreciate you writing in about these kind of range of topics. Don’t necessarily have firm answers on all of them, but hopefully we’ve given you something to think about.

[00:30:51] Jess O’Reilly: And if these aren’t your questions, hopefully they give you some insights on what’s going on. In your life, and you’ll start more conversations with more people around you about these relationship topics, because they’re interesting, they’re layered, they’re nuanced, and the more we talk about them, the more we bring them into the light and out of the shadows of shame.

[00:31:10] Jess O’Reilly: With that, AdamandEve. com, just a reminder, if you are shopping there for all the fun stuff that vibrates. Or sucks in a good way. , or is Lacey, or Leathery, all that jazz. Adam and eve.com use code, Dr. Jess 54, 50% off almost any single item plus free shipping. Plus super fast handling.

[00:31:31] Brandon Ware: Super fast. They’ll handle your

[00:31:33] Brandon Ware: goods.

[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: Oh God. Okay folks, have a great one and shipping it quickly. Cutting this off now. ,

[00:31:39] Jess O’Reilly: you’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.

Jess and Brandon weigh in on personal questions from listeners. They also share an offer from Womanizer in honour of Breast Cancer Awareness Month: if you’re a survivor, request your Womanizer Premium Eco by emailing info at sexwithdrjess dot com.

If you have podcast questions, please submit them here. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Sex & Relationship Q&A: Cheating, Trust & Sexual Pressure

Episode 338

[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight. Hey, hey, we’re back at it after a week off. Are you, are you feeling rested?

[00:00:19] Brandon Ware: I feel refreshed.

[00:00:20] Jess O’Reilly: You do?

[00:00:21] Brandon Ware: Not at all.

[00:00:22] Jess O’Reilly: In 400 or so episodes, or maybe we’re not quite at 400. I think we’ve only missed two weeks.

[00:00:27] Brandon Ware: About three 50. And that’s impressive that you’ve only missed. Two weeks.

[00:00:30] Jess O’Reilly: Is it? For me it is. For another person who’s not as, uh, commitment phobic. Not that impressive, but apologies for missing last week. Not gonna get into it, but happy to, happy to be back chatting with you today, babe. Yeah, always happy to be here.

[00:00:43] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got some questions from some listeners that, uh, I’m always kind of intrigued by and intrigued to hear what you have to say and what others think. So we do have a bit of an alternative sponsor for Breast Cancer Awareness Month as well. Uh, because cancer diagnosis and treatment have repeatedly been shown to adversely affect sexual function.

[00:01:03] Jess O’Reilly: We know that, for example, 83% of breast cancer survivors meet the clinical criteria for sexual dysfunction. We know that a very small percentage actually receive supports in this area. So our sponsored womanizer has. partnered with charity, the leading research hospital in Berlin for a breast cancer clinical study on sexuality and libido for breast cancer survivors.

[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: And they already have some preliminary data in this study showing that masturbating helps with libido loss and sexual self worth in breast cancer survivors who have undergone treatment. So I am looking forward to seeing some of those. Some of those formal results once published, and Erica Hart, who is a fellow sex educator, they’re an activist, a breast cancer survivor themself, they advocate for an active pleasure approach to breast cancer survivors treatment.

[00:01:51] Jess O’Reilly: They are also on board as part of the project. And the reason we’re bringing this up is that Womanizer, you know I’m a fan of this brand, a huge fan of their [00:02:00] technology, Womanizer is giving away. a whole lot of premium ecos. So those are their premium version of womanizers, but they’re recyclable. So they’re made from recyclable material.

[00:02:12] Jess O’Reilly: The product itself is recyclable. It uses less packaging, all that jazz. And so if you are a survivor and you’re interested in a free womanizer premium eco, just let me know. So shoot an email over to our admin over here at sexwithdrjess, it’s info at sexwithdrjess. com. Just let us know you’d like one and you need to send your name and shipping address and we’ll have it shipped out to you.

[00:02:37] Jess O’Reilly: So if you’re a breast cancer survivor or maybe you know someone who is who deserves a little more pleasure in their life, courtesy of Womanizer, do shoot us a message and you can find more info on it online as well at womanizer. com slash. It’s breast cancer study and I think there’s a little dash between each of those words.

[00:02:55] Jess O’Reilly: Probably much easier to just email me info at sexwithdrjess. com and we’d love to have Womanizer ship that out to you and they have some other programming going on this month as well. With certain purchases you receive a free boob necklace, um, in support of breast cancer survivors. Pleasure. All right, so we look forward to hearing from you and now.

[00:03:16] Jess O’Reilly: We move on to these questions, and man, we receive so many questions, and honestly, I know I feel badly I can’t answer all of them, but, uh, these ones I’m looking forward to digging into, so let’s get straight to the first one. First question. What do I say to my husband who insists that sex is my marital duty and that men need to get off regularly?

[00:03:36] Jess O’Reilly: He says it’s normal that if I don’t do it for him, he’s gonna get it somewhere else because he needs to get off. We have pretty regular sex, but for the past few weeks, life has been a mess, so it’s been a slow patch. We have two younger ones under two, and I had a C section on the last one, and I was a little bit slow to recover.

[00:03:56] Brandon Ware: Wow, I have a lot of things to share.

[00:03:58] Jess O’Reilly: Fine, go ahead.

[00:03:59] Brandon Ware: Sounds… [00:04:00] Okay, candid, Brandon? Sounds like a dick. Um, doesn’t really sound that fair, if I had to be honest. If you’re looking to get off, you can use your hand. You can use a toy. You can rub up against a furry wall. You can rub up against a pair of silk boxers.

[00:04:16] Brandon Ware: If you’re young. enough. But I think this entitlement, this idea that you absolutely, this is your duty to me, without a conversation, sounds… Unjust yeah, I think you know, the first thing I’m looking for is let’s have a dialogue. Let’s open this up Let’s see where this goes

[00:04:34] Jess O’Reilly: man. It’s only been a few weeks.

[00:04:36] Brandon Ware: Is that I missed that part, too It’s only been a few weeks. So, you know, I’m not saying that we’re all not looking to Enjoy sex and to get off but I think after a few weeks And this, this requirement that you have to do this for me, I’m like, man, there’s just a lot to unpack here.

[00:04:54] Jess O’Reilly: Requirement with a threat, too.

[00:04:55] Jess O’Reilly: You know, so, you know, I don’t believe monogamy is the end all be all. But I do think respect is sort of an end all be all. And the way you’re describing these things, it really doesn’t sound like he’s showing much respect. You know, I definitely don’t see sex as a marital duty. I see sex as a shared experience, right?

[00:05:14] Jess O’Reilly: All parties opt into for pleasure, for connection, or any other benefits that you might associate with sex. It’s not something you want to do to stop him from doing it with someone else. That feels like a lot of weight to carry around. And I know people are gonna, you know, kind of say, Well, What about the fact that you make a commitment when you opt into a monogamous relationship or marriage?

[00:05:36] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying that you don’t want to prioritize and, you know, work to ensure that both of your sexual desires are attended to in some way, but not out of duty and not under duress and not when he’s threatening you. So my first thought always is, okay, so if he’s acting this way with regard to sex, I’m really curious if he makes similar demands or threats.

[00:05:58] Jess O’Reilly: in other realms of the [00:06:00] relationship, beyond sex. Like what else does he see as your duty? What does he see as his duty? And can we unpack where those ideas come from and be flexible in, you know, our expectations? And again, it’s been a few weeks. I mean, you have two under two. So I hope that you’re able to call him out if it’s safe to do so.

[00:06:21] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you can let him know that you do want to have sex, but you want to do it because it feels good. Emotionally, physically, relationally, spiritually, and more. However, you know, again, whatever you associate with the benefits of sex, you want to, you want to do it, but not because he’s threatening you. And I think I’d want to ask, you know, why do you see it as a duty?

[00:06:39] Jess O’Reilly: And maybe better understand what sex means to him, right? Is it just getting off? Is it something you share? with someone you care about or someone you connect with or, you know, I’m curious, does he see getting off with someone else since he brought that up as part of how he wants the relationship structured or is that just an empty threat?

[00:06:56] Jess O’Reilly: And I’d love for these conversations, I really think, to be supported by a counselor or therapist because I think they’re heavy ones and one sided to me.

[00:07:06] Jess O’Reilly: Huge, you know, I always say there’s no universal red flags but this feels like a really serious red flag to me. And, if you can’t see a counselor or therapist, is there someone else you can talk to, you know, a friend, a cousin, a sibling, someone who maybe has a bit more insight into your relationship than I do?

[00:07:22] Jess O’Reilly: And I know I’ve said before that, philosophically, I don’t see why we’d want to hold our partners back from pleasure, but To me, that applies to loving, respectful, ethical partners, and someone who threatens you, and makes demands like this, to me, doesn’t qualify.

[00:07:35] Brandon Ware: I always think about role reversal, and I’m not saying that that’s the best case scenario to try and understand the problem, but what if the roles were reversed?

[00:07:42] Brandon Ware: How would they feel, or how would he feel, in this particular instance? What if all of a sudden he decided he didn’t want to have sex at all? What if that was the scenario, right? What would he expect of you? What would he expect of you? Right. So I think, you know, my knee jerk response is, he sounds like a dick.

[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: And I’m still standing behind that because I don’t have more context to what’s going on other [00:08:00] than this description. But from what has been said, I stand, I, I do feel confident with what I’ve said. And I also think that Brandon’s got the dick stamp? I’ve got the dick stamp. I’m like, boom, I’m gonna smack it right in your forehead.

[00:08:10] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Listen, we don’t, we don’t have the answers, we don’t have the full picture, but I hope you have the supports to, to know that you shouldn’t be treated this way, and that I hope you have the tools and the capacity to, to stand up a little, or get, you know, get, rally the supportive people around you, not to go after him, but to better understand your own perspective, because the fact that, you know, he’s framed it this way to you, and you’re asking me, and it’s not like you just asked me this week, this is a little bit old, so you’ve been probably going through this for some time, maybe your judgment has been Thank you.

[00:08:39] Jess O’Reilly: bit clouded to where you’re starting to believe some of the things he says, and that’s something that happens in relationships when people are abusive and unethical.

[00:08:47] Brandon Ware: And there could be other things happening behind the scenes that we just don’t know about, right?

[00:08:50] Jess O’Reilly: And this was, I received this, uh, I think a couple of months ago, you said that it’s been going on for a couple of weeks and I just hope you’re in a safe place because you don’t need to be under duress and threat.

[00:09:00] Brandon Ware: Agreed.

[00:09:01] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, you know, you brought up role reversal, and I think that really applies to this next question. And this one pertains to what qualifies as cheating. And I, oh, I receive so many questions that are along the lines of, you know, Am I being reasonable? Is my partner being reasonable? And you know, of course, it’s up to you to determine boundaries.

[00:09:16] Jess O’Reilly: But this is an interesting one. She writes in, I caught my husband in the back room of a strip club getting a private. Dance. His belt was undone. I saw a bunch of big charges on the credit card statement, so I walked right in there, because we had already talked about the fact that strip clubs are fine, but no touching.

[00:09:34] Jess O’Reilly: He says it’s not cheating, and that he never touches the dancers. He says he keeps his hands to himself, so he’s following our rules, even though they’re… Touching him. I say it is cheating because even if he’s not using his hands, there’s lots of body contact involved. He says I’m being a prude. Am I overreacting?

[00:09:51] Jess O’Reilly: And how do we even move forward? Okay. So I think you’re probably going to want support with talking this one through as well, because my view is [00:10:00] that you’re not overreacting because it sounds to me like you agreed on a relationship rule or boundary and he’s trying to ride it out in the grey area. I’d be surprised to believe that he even believes what he’s saying.

[00:10:10] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I’d be surprised as well. I love this. It’s a loophole. I’m not doing anything wrong. It’s totally cool. My penis is just out of my pants and someone’s rubbing it.

[00:10:17] Jess O’Reilly: I’m sitting on my hands. I think he’s playing semantics, right? I didn’t touch with my hands. Well, you touch with all sorts of body parts, so that’s touching.

[00:10:24] Jess O’Reilly: And like you said, babe, this one, I’m really curious how he’d feel if roles were reversed. So, no, I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think when a relationship boundary or rule or whatever you want to call it is violated, Whether the spirit of the rule is violated or it’s literally violated, I think it’s reasonable to say that you’re not comfortable with this.

[00:10:46] Jess O’Reilly: That doesn’t mean he has to do what you want though.

[00:10:47] Brandon Ware: Agreed.

[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: So how you move forward is really up to the two of you. I think it’s probably fair to say that trust has been violated and that takes work. to rebuild and that is a shared job and we’ve spoken about cheating and how to get it over cheating and whether a cheater will cheat again in the past and I don’t care if we label it cheating or some sort of violation whatever language works for you but my focus would be how do we a rebuild trust and how do we Build this relationship in a way that works for both of us because, you know, there might be a really clear path where you can repair trust because he shows accountability and you both commit to agreeing to relationship parameters together.

[00:11:27] Jess O’Reilly: So maybe that includes strip clubs or maybe it doesn’t, but what’s important is that you’re both happy with the arrangement and. That can take some real work to find that common ground. I think it takes effort and more than a few conversations to get you both on the same page. And I will say, we have a lot of tools on this podcast, in previous episodes, to help you navigate some of these conversations.

[00:11:49] Jess O’Reilly: To help you better understand one another’s sexual values. Not just what you want, but why you want it. And all the attachments related to your histories, related to your [00:12:00] identities, related to personal values. that dictate how you define sex, how you define monogamy, how you define ethical non monogamy. So if you go back to some of the conversations on sexual values and relational values, I think that can be helpful.

[00:12:13] Jess O’Reilly: And again, if you can work with a professional whose approach aligns with yours, that’s ideal. However, I think it’s also important to recognize that some people can’t find common ground. Some people realize that, you know, they aren’t in a space where they can rebuild trust or they can’t agree on what they want, and even in the absence of rebuilding trust and finding common ground, so many folks stay together.

[00:12:35] Jess O’Reilly: Nonetheless, right? Many people stay together in a new type of relationship. I know folks in your situation who stay together, but they stop having sex with each other, especially when I’m thinking of multiple cases right now. They find out their partners are having sex with other people, and I can’t tell you how many couples stay in these situations because they want to stay together as a family, or because they work together, or to avoid disruption or social stigma.

[00:12:59] Jess O’Reilly: And some of them find a new reality. Where they can’t really agree sexually but they still kind of like each other or they really like each other. Some of them have a lot of fun together, they enjoy one another’s company. Some don’t. Like some stay together and they don’t like each other and they’re full of resentment.

[00:13:16] Jess O’Reilly: And I think the reason I’m going off here is that there is every permutation of relationship out there. Obviously, you know, I see relationships as the key to fulfillment in life. And health and wealth and every possible piece of happiness. So I wish people were in happy relationships. I’d love to see people in safe, happy, fulfilling relationships.

[00:13:38] Jess O’Reilly: So to go back to it, if you can figure out what that means for you. Maybe be a bit flexible, but also focus on what are your own needs and values, and you can build from there. So I’m not trying to be opaque. Maybe you find a way to realize that, you know what, yeah, he wants to go to strip clubs, and I’m going to find a way to reconcile that, so it feels okay for me.[00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you don’t. Maybe he keeps doing it, and it feels awful for you, and then you have to decide, do I really want to stay in this relationship? You know, and let’s be honest, some people in this situation break up. They realize. That they’re simply not aligned. And I’m not suggesting that, you know, a trip to a strip club is the sole reason that people split up.

[00:14:16] Jess O’Reilly: But if your values don’t align, if you can’t trust one another, if you end up constantly fighting about issues like this one, of course it leads to deterioration of trust and connection and attraction and care and kindness and safety and all the other beautiful things we seek. And

[00:14:38] Brandon Ware: I think it’s interesting that we start relationships with copious amounts of conversation.

[00:14:44] Brandon Ware: When we start dating someone or seeing someone, you’re out, you’re not just having sex, you’re not doing chores, you’re not taking care of the kids, you’re doing. I get it, fun things, but you’re out having these conversations, talking about what you want in the future, what you want today, what you’re okay with, with your potential partner.

[00:15:02] Brandon Ware: But then once you get into these relationships, we hear all of these stories about people who have stopped communicating or used the communication that they had 10, 5, 10, 20 years ago as the parameters. For current activities or, or whatever it is that they’re doing, but it’s like, these need to be updated.

[00:15:19] Brandon Ware: You need to be having constant conversations to understand what are you comfortable with today? Because what I was comfortable with five years ago, I’m, may not be comfortable with today.

[00:15:28] Jess O’Reilly: Well, it’s interesting because this person seems to be clear about what they’re comfortable with. Because they had this agreement that you don’t touch at a strip club.

[00:15:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right. But they’re also asking me if they’re overreacting, which suggests to me that they’re curious about hopefully not what I think, because what I think doesn’t really matter. I’m curious about whether or not maybe they are flexible on some of these things, but being flexible on your partner, going to a strip club and getting touched by other people or touching other people is totally different than being flexible on having a partner who lies to you or who rides that gray area.

[00:15:59] Jess O’Reilly: In [00:16:00] honestly, what feels like a childish way to me, like if you guys had an agreement and they violated it, that’s why I said the number one thing is you have to kind of repair, rebuild trust, and then you have to decide how do you want to build this relationship together? What’s it going to look like? And rather than dictating what it ought to be from either’s perspective or assuming that it ought to be one way because it’s what most people do, I really think it is about digging into your sexual values, Your relational values and what really brings you joy and love and comfort and safety and excitement and passion and all the things you want from a relationship and that’s actual effort.

[00:16:37] Jess O’Reilly: That’s not just about finding the right partner because right now you don’t have the right partner. Like, and I don’t mean he’s wrong. I mean, clearly you’re not right for one another because what one of you wants is not what the other wants. One of you is clearly, I’m going to just use the word lying because that’s what it is.

[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: And that doesn’t mean that you can’t. Figure out how to fit together. It’s just at this moment in time according to this specific incident You’re not the right fit

[00:17:00] Brandon Ware: sounds kind of childish to me if I had to be honest like this this idea Well, you know, this is what we agreed to so i’m not technically touching anyone.

[00:17:07] Brandon Ware: I’m like, come on, man your partner clearly is You know, comfortable enough with themselves to have these conversations, right? And you’re the one that’s saying, well, there’s a loophole here. So

[00:17:17] Jess O’Reilly: I’m going to use their hands up in the air, rubbing their penis.

[00:17:19] Brandon Ware: Just going to take my penis out and see what happens, you know?

[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: So, no, I don’t think you’re overreacting. I definitely don’t think you’re being approved, but I think there are some very important conversations around trust and relationship agreements here. And it’s not going to be a one time thing. You guys, as Brandon said, you might land on something today that works.

[00:17:36] Jess O’Reilly: And then in six months, you might have to reassess. Because you might think you’re comfortable with something and then perhaps not be, or you might think you’re uncomfortable with something and then learn that, you know what, maybe this is something I could open my mind up to as well. So wishing you luck with that.

[00:17:50] Jess O’Reilly: And thank you so much. Thank you to both of you for sending in your questions. Again, we are not the arbiters of truth. We don’t have all the answers. We try and share our [00:18:00] perspective. And if anyone else wants to share their perspective, go ahead and record us a voice note in a nice quiet room. And we’re happy to consider playing it on the podcast as well.

[00:18:09] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, reading out what you write isn’t as, uh, I think effective, but if you feel like getting on that voice note, just with some headphones and recording in a quiet room, and you want to share your perspective or even experience with similar. situations please do. All right we’re going to stop there with a quick reminder that Womanizer is giving away free premium egos while supplies last and our listeners are on a priority list if you want to shoot us an email at info at sexwithdrjess.

[00:18:37] Jess O’Reilly: com and I will look at the results of the study the collaboration between Womanizer and Charité in In Berlin, when we see more of the data to come out about sexual functioning and self pleasure post breast cancer diagnosis and treatment. Thanks for chatting, babe.

[00:18:53] Brandon Ware: Thank you.

[00:18:53] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, folks. Have a great one.

[00:18:56] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.

In Part II of our threesome discussion, we share questions and prompts to consider before you have a threesome — for individuals and couples. We also share some of our listeners’ insights on threesomes and discuss couples’ privilege.

Check out the questionnaires below, and be sure to check out AdamAndEve.com and use code DRJESS50 to save 50% off almost any item with FREE shipping + VIP rush processing.

Threesomes: Self-Questionnaire

Consider the setting, relationships, involved parties, sex acts, etc…

Threesomes: Managing Jealousy, Insecurity & Distress

Some other cues to look for include…

Threesomes: Couples’ Questionnaire

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 337

How To Plan A Successful Threesome

[00:00:00] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. And I’m looking at Dr. Jess with a giant smile on her face.

[00:00:05] Jess O’Reilly: You like that? It’s a Terry Crews smile.

[00:00:06] Brandon Ware: I do like that smile.

[00:00:08] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:00:08] Brandon Ware: Why are you so happy?

[00:00:09] Jess O’Reilly: Because you walk past my laptop just now and I shut it. So you wouldn’t see what was on it.

[00:00:14] Brandon Ware: I, nothing shocks me.

[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Nothing surprises me.

[00:00:16] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not porn.

[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: Does it?

[00:00:18] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not. I mean, obviously not.

[00:00:20] Brandon Ware: If it was, I’d been so shocked.

[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: It’s for research purposes.

[00:00:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah, me too. Research.

[00:00:24] Jess O’Reilly: No, it was an article that I didn’t want to go to about the Scandinavian sleep method.

[00:00:30] Brandon Ware: Okay. I’m a Scandinavian. I’m going to just assume minimalism, hard woods.

[00:00:36] Jess O’Reilly: You just sleep on flanks of wood.

[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:00:39] Jess O’Reilly: No. So, so it’s this trend that has been popularized as of late on the TikTok. On the TikTok. Where you sleep in a double bed or a queen bed or a king bed. Okay. A matrimonial bed, as it’s called, and you sleep with separate comforters. So you share a bed, but separate comforters.

[00:00:57] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s my greatest fear that you’re gonna see this and want to do this.

[00:01:01] Brandon Ware: It’s, it doesn’t bother me at all because

[00:01:04] Brandon Ware: I don’t, I’m a human heating machine.

[00:01:06] Brandon Ware: Don’t you know this? After 23 years, I I, I have, I’m just, I’m a heating machine.

[00:01:11] Jess O’Reilly: I know, but does coming close to me get you too hot?

[00:01:14] Brandon Ware: Yes, absolutely. Don’t you notice that you’re like spoon me and then I’ll come over, I’ll spoon you, and then 30 seconds later, I’m like, okay, I’m sweating now I have to leave.

[00:01:21] Brandon Ware: And don’t you ever notice I temperature regulate with my leg, the single leg, and it’s like getting too hot. Leg goes out, give me five minutes, body cools down. Is

[00:01:32] Jess O’Reilly: it one leg or is it either leg? Depending on which side you’re on.

[00:01:34] Brandon Ware: It doesn’t matter. I don’t, most of the time, I don’t even know if I need a comforter, a sheet.

[00:01:39] Brandon Ware: Don’t you get, don’t, aren’t you like, why aren’t you sleeping with a sheet between your body and the comforter? And it’s because I don’t care.

[00:01:46] Jess O’Reilly: What drives me nuts is when you pull that one leg out and you put it on the comforter and then I can’t rip the comforter. Comforter away from you. That’s what I’m talking about.

[00:01:53] Jess O’Reilly: This is why I’m thinking you would like the Scandinavian sleep method because you could take the comforter off and I wouldn’t kind of moan about it, [00:02:00] but, and I don’t want two comforters. I know you’re going to tell me, Oh, you could have my comforter. No, I want you. I want your body. I want your heat. I want your warmth.

[00:02:07] Jess O’Reilly: I want your safety. Anything could get me in the night. If I’m not touching you, I’m scared.

[00:02:11] Brandon Ware: Have we talked about the murder side of the bed? Have we talked about this?

[00:02:14] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know.

[00:02:15] Brandon Ware: No,

[00:02:16] Brandon Ware: let’s talk about the murder side.

[00:02:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Because we have to move around a lot for work. We’re obviously sleeping in different places.

[00:02:22] Jess O’Reilly: So I know for most couples, one person sleeps on the right and one person sleeps on the left. Not in our house. People tend to have their side. For me, I just put Brandon on the murder side, which means if

[00:02:33] Brandon Ware: someone’s going to break in, I’m the closest to getting murdered first.

[00:02:38] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. But what about at this place?

[00:02:40] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re over in Barcelona, whose side is really the murder side? Because there’s the big, the big balcony doors.

[00:02:46] Brandon Ware: It, you know what? You never know. You never know. You know what? I’m, I’m, I flip flop back and forth.

[00:02:51] Jess O’Reilly: I’m a very scared sleeper. I should probably get some therapy on this. But even when I put my foot down on the ground to get out of the bed, I’m afraid someone’s under the bed and I’m.

[00:03:05] Brandon Ware: I always know exactly which side of the bed I’m going to take.

[00:03:07] Jess O’Reilly: The murder side.

[00:03:08] Brandon Ware: The murder side. It’s the murder side. It’s B’s side. Go on the murder side.

[00:03:13] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I guess we should get down to this. Let’s do it. Okay. Scandinavian sleep methods. Sleep with separate comforters. Supposed to help you to sleep better.

[00:03:20] Jess O’Reilly: Regulate your temperature better. Thank God Brandon doesn’t want it. Sleep. Don’t sleep on the murder side. Yeah. Something like that. All right. We’re going to dive into the archives. Today for part two of threesomes. So now we’re, we talked last week. Now we’re talking about the how to, the planning, the safety nets, all that jazz.

[00:03:35] Jess O’Reilly: And this was a really popular episode when we first released it years ago. And I’m always being asked about threesomes. Everyone wants to talk about threesomes. So I think you’re going to like it before we get into it. We’ve got a great promo from adamandeve. com. They’ve activated. Code Dr. Jess 50. What is the 50 mean?

[00:03:54] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, Charles. 50 percent off almost any single item, plus free shipping, [00:04:00] plus free rush handling. They’re going to handle these toys for you.

[00:04:02] Brandon Ware: Handle your package for you before it even arrives.

[00:04:05] Jess O’Reilly: Ship it to you so you can get off fast. And it’s fall sex fest over at adamandeve. com. I was checking out some of their best selling toys.

[00:04:11] Jess O’Reilly: They’ve got the Eve’s rechargeable thrusting rabbit. So it has an outer arm to play against the external clitoris. It’s got an inner curved arm that vibes against the G spot, but it also has a thrusting mechanism. They’ve sold 275, 000 of these. Code DrJess50 is going to get you 50 percent off, free shipping plus.

[00:04:31] Jess O’Reilly: Personalized handling,

[00:04:33] Brandon Ware: clearly they’ve sold hundreds of thousands of this thing with two arms and then a thrusting component,

[00:04:39] Jess O’Reilly: but have they handled all of all of them? Priority handled

[00:04:42] Brandon Ware: according to their website. They absolutely have handled them all for you.

[00:04:45] Jess O’Reilly: They’ve also, if you’re, if you’ve been waiting to try some of those suction devices, Eve’s Ravishing Rose Pleaser is on there again, 50 percent off with our code, Dr.

[00:04:53] Jess O’Reilly: Jess 50. And they’ve got a range of different wands and curves and vibes, and it doesn’t apply to every single item, but many. Most of these items are included. Yeah. Eve was freaky. So check it out. Dr. Jess 50 at Adam and Eve. com.

[00:05:09] Brandon Ware: Amazing. Let’s go and tickle some stuff.

[00:05:16] Brandon Ware: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast.

[00:05:26] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.

[00:05:33] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, just the two of us here to talk. threesomes. This is part two to follow up from last week’s episode with Justin Lehmiller, and I think this is going to be an interesting discussion because we’re going to share two things.

[00:05:47] Jess O’Reilly: One is a set of conversations and reflections to consider before you have a threesome. Sort of the how to prepare. And also, I wanted to share a bunch of your responses on threesomes because I [00:06:00] received a gazillion. So I’m just going to read them at random. I’m not cherry picking them. I kind of just picked a whole bunch out totally at random because yeah, I’m fascinated by what other people have to say about their experiences or their desires.

[00:06:14] Jess O’Reilly: So I had put it out on my Instagram and asked folks who fantasizes about a threesome, who actually wants to have a threesome. And so, as we said last week, the data suggests that many people fantasize about a threesome, but not as many actually do it. And then somewhere in between, there are people who want to do it.

[00:06:29] Jess O’Reilly: But on my IG, and we had thousands of answers actually, 61 percent say they fantasize about having a threesome. 39 percent say they don’t. And then the numbers are pretty much aligned 59 percent say they want to have a threesome. And 41 percent say they don’t, you know, I thought there would be more of a differentiation between fantasy and desire, but for our followers, or at least the people who answered, it was just pretty much aligned, which is interesting to me.

[00:06:56] Brandon Ware: I would have thought that the number of people who desired a threesome would have been higher just because of its prevalence in the media and TV shows. It’s like everyone always. That’s the fantasy.

[00:07:07] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And, you know, according to Justin Laymiller’s research and research that came before it, you’re absolutely right.

[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: It’s in the higher, you know, 85, 89 percent range in terms of desire. I wonder too, though, if folks who maybe engage with my profile or, you know, followers. In our community also maybe a bit more reflective about what they want. So they’re not just watching porn and saying, oh, threesome. And I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong or basic about wanting a threesome.

[00:07:30] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with wanting to have a threesome. I definitely, it’s, you know, it’s a fantasy for me. It’s something that we’ve definitely explored together. But I just thought I’d throw that data out there. And then I’m gonna read through some of your responses, but before I do, I definitely want to announce.

[00:07:44] Jess O’Reilly: This exciting new sponsor with whom we’re working, and that is Love Honey. And you’re probably familiar with Love Honey because they have been in the business of sexual happiness for almost two decades, and I know that they were in the UK, but they’re really becoming a powerhouse [00:08:00] in Canada and the States as well, and obviously I know I work with many brands, but.

[00:08:04] Jess O’Reilly: Love Honey’s a bit of a standout for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, they recently received a couple of awards from the Queen of England. Right. Apparently. Queen’s getting her freak on? I guess so. You said it. I didn’t say it. You’re the Brit here. So. And secondly, they’ve actually been sponsoring my show on TSC all about sex toys.

[00:08:24] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ve become intimately familiar with Love Honey products. Uh, do you remember when the boxes arrived and the boxes were big enough for me to fit in? That’s how many sex toys we received. Boxes and boxes.

[00:08:33] Brandon Ware: copious amounts of sex toys thanks to Love, Honey. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a little ridiculous.

[00:08:39] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I loved it. I had to try them out. And it’s interesting because they seem to carry everything. Like, I have never actually seen such a diverse range of products. Everything from kind of high end brand name toys that you’ll be familiar with. from, you know, my other sponsors. So they carry everything.

[00:08:53] Jess O’Reilly: And they also carry like little tiny pocket sized travel toys with travel locks, which is really cool to me. Their Ignite line, they have lingerie and they have their own line of products, as well as the only 50 shades of gray licensed product line. And I thought I’d bring up one of those toys because it’s, it’s a bit of a standout in that.

[00:09:11] Jess O’Reilly: I haven’t seen a toy like this before and it is the greedy girl thrusting g spot vibe. And I was doing a demo of it on tv the other day and just watching this thing go is so cool. So it obviously has this bulbous head that curves against the g spot but it also is, I wish I could, it’s almost like a gentle spring, so it also thrusts on the inside, and then it has a curved clitoral arm for the outside, so it’s kind of got every single possibility.

[00:09:42] Brandon Ware: So it’s any partner’s perfect Toy because it removes any sort of additional responsibility to help the one partner get off,

[00:09:49] Jess O’Reilly: like lower the pressure. Yeah. And so they, they love honey as a big design team and they have, you know, a gazillion reviewers. I keep using that word, working on constantly improving their toys.

[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: So many of their [00:10:00] toys have. All these cool features, whether it’s, I keep going back to the travel locks and travel cases, because that’s really relevant to me since I’m carrying them in my suitcase. But I do highly recommend you check them out and you can check out the links in my show notes or just head to lovehoney.

[00:10:15] Jess O’Reilly: ca or lovehoney. com and you can use code DRJESS10 to save on, I think, pretty much… everything, which is a good deal because usually when there’s these promos, there are many, many exclusions, but this, this one is across the site. So do check them out. Love, honey. And we want to thank them for their support.

[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: And with that, it’s time to dive into threesomes. Let’s do it. All right. So last week we talked about the data with Justin Leigh Miller. And this week, I want to talk about considerations and conversations that make for better threesomes. And one thing that we continuously hear, and I think Justin said this, and I said this, and the research shows that when you prep for something, it’s almost always better, right?

[00:10:52] Jess O’Reilly: In terms of the building of anticipation, the excitement, the pleasure, and I think also just the outcome, right? When you’re prepared, it’s not just something you stumble into, you know, because you’ve been drinking in a hot tub.

[00:11:01] Brandon Ware: Yeah. The first time I heard about somebody talking about preparation was actually Luna Matadas at one of the trade shows.

[00:11:08] Brandon Ware: And she was commenting on preparing for King play and having discussions with your partner. And it wasn’t something that I had really thought about before, but when. Luna was explaining it. It made so much sense. You have this open conversation from the beginning. Everyone explains what it is they’re hoping to achieve, what they want to get out of it.

[00:11:28] Brandon Ware: And more importantly, what are we going to do after the sex or the play? Is done, which I just, you think about a threesome and I immediately go to pop culture. People are at a party, people have probably been consuming too much alcohol or whatever and then it happens and then it’s done. But when you think about planning everything and then, okay, who are you staying for food after?

[00:11:49] Brandon Ware: Are you spending the night? Are you leaving? What do you want to get out of it? It could make the whole experience so much better.

[00:11:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, the afterglow or the aftercare is so important and you know, it’s interesting you think about a [00:12:00] party. I think about couples unicorn hunting because that’s who I hear from so often.

[00:12:05] Jess O’Reilly: Couples who want to find a third and the messaging from couples is pretty consistent and also very Predictable and fair. I understand that, you know, when you have something good, you want to preserve it. And so then you want to prioritize it. But in doing so, I think a lot of us, and I think we’ve been guilty of this in the past, don’t really acknowledge and deal with our own privilege as a couple, right?

[00:12:28] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that it’s so easy for a couple to say, Oh, we want to find a third person who will do this and do that. They have this laundry list of wants and demands. But they aren’t really always thinking about the third person. So I think that’s a really important piece that, you know, a threesome isn’t just about adding a third into your existing partnership or play.

[00:12:45] Jess O’Reilly: It involves creating a whole new three way dynamic and connection. And this doesn’t mean that you all have to play or interact in the same way or it needs to be perfectly equal, but you want to attend to the feelings and needs and boundaries and desires. of all parties, right? And having that laundry list of wants and demands from couples is a complaint that we hear from unicorns.

[00:13:05] Jess O’Reilly: And by the way, a unicorn is a single person who will hook up with a couple. Oftentimes it’s a cis woman. Oftentimes they’re expected to be bisexual. Of course, that is not always the case, but that focus on the couple or even the focus solely on one person’s pleasure, right? Like my husband wants this, or my wife wants that.

[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: It can make them feel like they’re being used like a prop, like physically being used like a prop or treated like a sex object, right? No affection, no conversation. And I think it’s important that if you are checking in with your partner, like your primary partner, if you’re a part of a couple, that you’re also checking in with this third person, right?

[00:13:39] Jess O’Reilly: Really showing concern for their… emotional and physical needs and other things we, I’ve heard from unicorns in terms of complaints is they don’t want to be hunted aggressively, right? When they’re just being kind of bombarded with messages as though you’re shooting fish in a barrel. Again, it feels very objectifying.

[00:13:53] Jess O’Reilly: And the last complaint I’ve, I’ve heard from unicorns is that they get outed without permission. Couples will sort of use them as a trophy [00:14:00] head and say like, we did this, we, we were with this person when they’re not ready to be outed. So I think it’s just really important that we think about. all three people creating this new dynamic as opposed to it simply being something for the couple.

[00:14:13] Brandon Ware: I mean, I would say that you don’t have to think about the unicorn if you’re willing to pay a sex worker and have the discussion in advance.

[00:14:21] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, you still have to think about them, but yes, it’s not in the same way. I

[00:14:24] Brandon Ware: didn’t mean don’t think about them. But what I mean is you don’t necessarily have to, you know, if you’re clear about you just want to focus on your own pleasure or the pleasure of your partner and not that of the sex worker, could you not then?

[00:14:35] Jess O’Reilly: Make that request and pay for it.

[00:14:36] Brandon Ware: Make that request from the beginning and pay for it.

[00:14:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. But while also always acknowledging I think the humanity and the emotional experience of everybody involved, that’s another actually topic I’d love to cover in how we can, how folks who engage sex workers can make sure that they’re being really good clients.

[00:14:52] Jess O’Reilly: And I know we talked about that in the past with Andrea War Hunt from Modern Horror, and I thought her tips were really helpful as well. So I just kind of wanted to put that out there first and foremost, the piece around acknowledging couples privilege and doing something about it. And also, I’m not trying to make people feel guilty.

[00:15:06] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t have to feel badly. You don’t have to feel guilty. It is natural to want to preserve your relationship. It is natural to want to prioritize your own needs and the needs of someone you already know and love. We just have to remember that this is a whole new dynamic. And so I would love to read some of the responses I got around threesomes from folks, and it’s just this huge range of perspectives about whether or not folks want to have a threesome.

[00:15:29] Jess O’Reilly: So one person says, I’m not going to say any names, it’s the greatest gift to give the one you love. Pleasure. Okay. Someone else says, I’m I want to try both MMF and FMF, I think there’s a lot to learn about sex from both. This guy says, if I want to disappoint two people, I’ll just have dinner with my parents.

[00:15:50] Jess O’Reilly: I got a lot of messages from folks who said that they’ve had them and they’re kind of overhyped. This person says, I’ve had them and either I’m so concerned about making sure everyone involved [00:16:00] is happy or I’m the one left out. So it can be kind of hard to engage three people. This guy says, I need to find someone who can last as long as I can so that she can enjoy two guys the same length of time.

[00:16:10] Jess O’Reilly: That’s interesting. So for some people, I’m sure that’s true. For me, that wouldn’t be true at all. Like the lasting, I presume that means like erection prior to ejaculation. I know I make it sound so sexy. Um, I’d be less concerned about how long like that lasts because there’s lots of other things to be done.

[00:16:24] Jess O’Reilly: Somebody says, I’ve done it many times. It’s fascinating. Love when both the girls suck. And then smooches each other. Okay. If you’re in a couple, make sure you debrief after each time and share any newly discovered limits. Okay, good one. You might not know your limits the first time, so use each experience as a learning op.

[00:16:43] Jess O’Reilly: True, true, true. Couple people just said, I love threesomes. I love threesomes. Asking me if I want to have a threesome with you. No thanks. And then just reminders that threesomes can be fantastic, sensual time, but everyone should talk first and get comfortable. Another person says, yes, it’s my dream fantasy to have a threesome.

[00:16:59] Jess O’Reilly: It can be MFF, MMF, love to explore sex always. Some folks are asking how they can convince their wife. And I’ll suggest you go back to previous podcasts about how you don’t convince somebody, you present and discuss. This person says, I’m not sure I could handle that. I’m monogamous and sex is highly emotional for me.

[00:17:17] Jess O’Reilly: So I think it’s really good that he knows his limits. Some folks say it needs to be planned and agreed upon first as to who is doing what. And we’ll get to some of those questions. Ooh, this person says, three months postpartum. I had my virgin threesome with two men, double penetration. And then they just wrote, fun.

[00:17:36] Brandon Ware: They went, they went for it.

[00:17:38] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. I love it.

[00:17:39] Brandon Ware: That’s impressive.

[00:17:40] Jess O’Reilly: This person says, I feel it will ruin things in the long run. Fair enough. And that may be the case for some people. Sorry, they added more. I can’t handle the thought of my wife with another man, and I’m sure the same for her. So it’s good that you, again, know your limits.

[00:17:52] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t have to do everything. A bunch of people just wrote, It’s overrated. There’s a lot going on. I always feel like I need to process a lot after, and like I wasn’t [00:18:00] fully. Present. That really makes sense to me. Like just the overwhelming physical interactions sometimes can be too much.

[00:18:08] Brandon Ware: Yeah, there’s a lot of comments about, I mean, the initial few comments, people wanting to make sure that all parties were pleased.

[00:18:14] Brandon Ware: I think that’s really, it’s just a much more. thought through process that I don’t think I would have been as focused on if I was doing it for the first time.

[00:18:22] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. It can be very distracting, right? Like I hear from a lot of, you know, cis men, for example, who say that they lose their erection in their first threesome because there’s just too much going on and too much pressure.

[00:18:33] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I could totally see that being the case. And there’s just, I did like the response about wanting to disappoint two people going for dinner. That was great.

[00:18:42] Jess O’Reilly: With their parents.

[00:18:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:18:43] Jess O’Reilly: So this person says that they used to plan threesomes earlier on in the relationship, but later they started to enjoy them.

[00:18:48] Jess O’Reilly: When they were more random and unexpected. So maybe with experience you can change the way you interact. I don’t think I could handle seeing my partner being intimate with another person. I’m too insecure. That’s fair. And it may not be insecurity. It might just be your own values. A lot of people commenting on communication.

[00:19:03] Jess O’Reilly: Somebody says the Eiffel tower is the best part of the threesome. That’s the sex position. I’ve been there, done that, was fun, but not something I’d consider again. If I was single, I would do it, but my fiance would not. Can you do it with friends? Can you do it with a stranger? So I’m going to suggest you go back to the previous podcast in terms of the data around who people are having threesomes with.

[00:19:22] Jess O’Reilly: Um, somebody says it’s a teenage goal. It’s overhyped experience. It’s fun 100%, but not life altering by any means. I would say that’s kind of my… experience as well. They say most men, it’s their holy grail. They want two women. This person says having sex with two people means overflowing with pleasure. I get totally lost in the moment.

[00:19:41] Jess O’Reilly: It’s absolute bliss. This person, this was a unicorn that says I didn’t like having a threesome with a couple. I wasn’t attracted to the guy at all. And then somebody says, I’m very insecure. I need to work on that first. It’s not where I need to be with my partner yet. Yeah, and I just want to say that you, you know, we all are varying degrees of insecure.

[00:19:59] Jess O’Reilly: Like one [00:20:00] day I might be fine with something and another I might feel really uncomfortable with it. And so you don’t have to necessarily work on that. I mean, if you generally are feeling insecure. To care. Sure, maybe you wanna work on that, but I don’t want there to be any pressure. So then there’s just a whole bunch more about preparing in advance, talking in advance, talking after.

[00:20:16] Jess O’Reilly: And then a lot of people who have done it saying it’s overhyped. So maybe I should put some, uh, polling out on that. Was it really hot or was it really worth it? So I just wanted to share some of that kind of raw notes from the community on threesomes. Before we get into, now, you know why we here, which is some of the questions that I think you can consider either on your own.

[00:20:32] Jess O’Reilly: with a partner with all three people before having a threesome. So I’m just going to go through them and starting really broadly with, why do you want to have a threesome? Because every damn group I work with, every group in the world, always, always, always people are asking me about threesomes. Like my data is 100%.

[00:20:47] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t think I’ve ever done a workshop where I don’t get an anonymous question about threesomes, always. And so my first question is, well, why do you want to do it? Like what appeals to you? about it sexually, physically, relationally, practically. So that’s, I think, an open ended question. So why do you want to do it?

[00:21:01] Jess O’Reilly: What benefits are you hoping to derive from it? Uh, what are the perceived risks and costs? I know people who have put together kind of a cost benefit analysis table. Uh, that’s how I think, so that works for me. I know that’s not everybody’s cup of tea. With whom would you like to have a threesome? Like, have you thought about that?

[00:21:18] Jess O’Reilly: Do you want it to be a stranger? Do you want it to be a friend? Do you want to engage Do you know if that person or those people are open to it. How might your relationship with your threesome mates change post threesome? What excites you most about a threesome? What motivates you? What concerns you? Do you have any hesitations?

[00:21:37] Jess O’Reilly: What emotional elements of a threesome have you considered? Because you heard in our community response that a lot of people talked about insecurity. There were also some notes on jealousy and all those things are fine. It’s okay to feel jealous. It’s okay to feel insecure. That happens and we can’t entirely avoid.

[00:21:52] Jess O’Reilly: negative emotions. And in fact, for some people, those emotions can become turn ons in a threesome. How will you manage potentially challenging emotions should they [00:22:00] arise? So like, what if I do feel jealous? Does it mean that it’s devastating? Does it mean that it adversely affects our relationship? Or do I just say, yeah, I feel a little jealous about that.

[00:22:08] Jess O’Reilly: I’m going to kind of file that for later and maybe go through it. at a later time? Or do I know that when I feel jealous, I become so physiologically flooded that I’m just going to freak out and run away, right? So how do you tend to respond to these, these feelings? Do you feel comfortable communicating your desires and boundaries, right?

[00:22:25] Jess O’Reilly: Like what holds you back? Are you good at this? Do you know what you want? How do you want to feel in the threesome? That’s always my big question for people, right? Like what is it you want to feel? What conditions? Increase your comfort with open communication. I think that’s a really important one, especially as you’re engaging with new people or a new person.

[00:22:43] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, what makes you comfortable communicating your boundaries? Are there certain triggers that stop you from speaking up? Uh, what does your ideal threesome entail? Right? Like, what is the setting? What is the type of relationship dynamic? Who’s involved? Specifically, what are the sex acts you want to engage in?

[00:22:59] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Like, we’re barely kind of scratching the surface here. What are the things you want to do with your hands? What are the things you want to do with your genitals? What are the things you want to do with your mouth? What are the things you want to do with toys? Where do you want to do it? How do you want?

[00:23:12] Jess O’Reilly: all parties involved? Like, will two people play while one person watches and touches themselves? Or do you want all three people somehow physically engaged? Like, would you feel left out if, I don’t know, they were genital to oral or genital to genital and you were, I don’t know, just playing with their hair or their toes or their chest or whatever it may be?

[00:23:30] Jess O’Reilly: I think we have to think about those specific things. I’m not saying you can plan it out and then it’s going to go exactly as planned, but if you can at least think about Best and worst case scenario, it can help you to decide your desires and boundaries and communicate them. And I think it’s just really important to, to remember that it’s okay to experience a range of emotions.

[00:23:48] Brandon Ware: When you’re asking these questions, I’m thinking about my own situation, what, you know, I’m comfortable with and not comfortable with. And it’s so interesting because as you’re talking through this, number one, all of these questions can. in [00:24:00] themselves become arousing and fantasizing like it’s, it creates a bit of a fantasy just having that conversation.

[00:24:06] Brandon Ware: But you had also made reference to, you know, how would you feel if you saw your partner for the first time and you felt uncomfortable, jealous, or any of those things. And I think even just mentally thinking about that situation kind of, for me, puts me into that situation so that I can think about.

[00:24:21] Brandon Ware: Initiating those feelings so that I can see how I respond rather than just boom, being in the situation and then all of a sudden being flooded with those emotions. So it’s almost for me a bit of a teaser in advance to be like, Oh, you know what? I’m thinking about this, you with somebody else. And yeah, I’m, I’m feeling a little jealous or I’m feeling insecure.

[00:24:40] Brandon Ware: So now I’ve put myself there and I’m already gauging how I respond, which I think would be a really helpful role playing scenario.

[00:24:47] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and you’re thinking about it from, like, definitely a coupled perspective because that’s, that’s our experience. But these questions are for everybody, right? So even if you don’t know the two people you’re playing with, you can still feel jealous, right?

[00:24:59] Jess O’Reilly: You can easily feel as though you’re not getting enough attention. You can easily feel as though you’re the third wheel. And so again, I go back to, okay, so what’s the consequence of that? Like, if I don’t get enough attention, is it the end of the world, or do I just feel a little off in this moment? Maybe I lose interest in the threesome.

[00:25:15] Jess O’Reilly: Like, what do I do if I’m no longer turned on because I’m not having my emotional needs fed? And so I think, for couples, I would add some additional questions. So we had, you know, 10, at least 10 there to begin with, which take a while to get through, but if you are in a couple, you want to kind of think about, okay, so how do you anticipate the threesome affecting your interactions with one another?

[00:25:33] Jess O’Reilly: How will you support one another before, during, and after the experience? How will you make sure you support the third party before, during, and after the experience? How will you make sure that you really think about this new dynamic and you don’t just prioritize yourselves? And how will you check in with one another during the threesome?

[00:25:50] Jess O’Reilly: How will you check in with the third, right? And it can be simple questions, like for example, you know, I’m trying to think if we’re gonna play with a group of three people, whether it’s a couple and a single or just [00:26:00] three people coming together, a question like, how will I know if you’re liking it, right?

[00:26:03] Jess O’Reilly: Or what will you do if you want more? Or you know, what are some cues I can look for in your body to let me know that something feels good? Or in the moment, it can be as simple as, do you like that? Like do you want more of that? Do you want less of that? Here or there? Just kind of giving people options and not assuming and actually threesomes must be a really interesting one and I gotta say like I’ve observed this so many times because again all of our models of sex come from porn but especially threesomes.

[00:26:31] Jess O’Reilly: Most people haven’t seen a lot of threesomes. People act really porny, right? I don’t know if you do not remember that from seeing that at parties and clubs like people being a little bit over the top, performative, and I want to be really clear, that’s not a criticism, because if that gets you off, then by all means, go for it.

[00:26:48] Jess O’Reilly: But what I’m trying to say is that, don’t assume that what they do in porn is what you need to do in your threesome, right? Because we have to remember, porn is a visual medium. It’s not a physical one, it’s partially audio, but they’re not focused necessarily on what the actors and performers are feeling.

[00:27:04] Jess O’Reilly: They’re focused on what it looks like for the camera. So even the way the three bodies set up, it’s so that you can see angles and perspectives that the camera likes. And in real life, you don’t have to worry about a camera unless you’re into that.

[00:27:16] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, for me, porn is where I learned, I’ve saw other people having sex.

[00:27:21] Brandon Ware: So my being, when I was younger, the way I responded was based on what I saw in porn because I didn’t know on my own how it was supposed to respond.

[00:27:29] Jess O’Reilly: So were you like a jackhammerer?

[00:27:30] Brandon Ware: Uh, yeah, definitely. When I was younger, it was just like, I’m going to go as fast and as hard as I can, because that’s what I saw.

[00:27:38] Brandon Ware: And clearly I’ve learned. For me, that doesn’t always have to be the way that it needs to go. But I’ve learned that over time, and I’ve learned that by also picking up on cues on how your body responds. So you asked some great questions, which is when you speak to your partner or that individual or the people that you’re having this threesome with, it’s like, what cues can I pick up on?

[00:27:56] Brandon Ware: But it all goes back to having that conversation in advance, which frankly, [00:28:00] for me, would almost feel unnatural before you even had sex. Sex is supposed to be the spontaneous thing that happens as opposed to a planned situation.

[00:28:07] Jess O’Reilly: But what if it’s more playful than that? Like, what if you go for dinner, for example?

[00:28:11] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, and that’s something you want to talk about as well. Like, are you just getting together for the sex or is there going to be dinner before or drinks after or snuggling after? And, you know, I’ve heard from unicorns who say that, you know, when they are with a couple, they want to feel cared for, right?

[00:28:24] Jess O’Reilly: Just like you want to snuggle after, they may want to snuggle after.

[00:28:27] Brandon Ware: I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying. I, I do very much like the idea of having the conversation in advance.

[00:28:34] Jess O’Reilly: So couldn’t you make it playful at dinner or even via text, like, what are you into? Like, what is it you want to try or what’s your ultimate fantasy or what turns you on?

[00:28:43] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that playfulness. can be a really hot discussion. So it’s not necessarily sitting at a boardroom table and going through a checklist of, yes, I accept pinky fingers in my bum, but not thumbs. I accept two fingers in the vaginal canal, but not three. I love when you play with my right nostril, but not my left nostril.

[00:29:00] Jess O’Reilly: Like it doesn’t have to be so regimented, although it can be too. Like for me, that wouldn’t bother me at all. I’d be happy to go through a checklist with you.

[00:29:07] Brandon Ware: No, I just like the idea of even the dinner or drinks or whatever it is that you’re doing in advance can be the foreplay, like it can be the lead up, the buildup.

[00:29:17] Brandon Ware: So, you know, for those that hour or two or however long. It’s anticipatory, right? Like you’re already getting riled up for what will come.

[00:29:25] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And you’re getting to know one another, right? Like you’re picking up on one another’s vibes. Uh, you’re picking up on their communication style. And we, you, I think we see this all the time.

[00:29:33] Jess O’Reilly: Um, not just for threesomes, but for any kind of group exchange. So for example, when we’ve. We’re places where couples are hooking up with one another, you know, you’ll see couples go to dinner and then they often, you know, go dancing after. And then maybe they, if there’s a hot tub, I don’t know why there’s always a hot tub involved, but there’s always a hot tub for these situations.

[00:29:52] Jess O’Reilly: They like go to the hot tub and hang out. And then it’s, it’s literally hours of building and conversation and getting to know them [00:30:00] before you actually. Get down to anything physical. Do you notice that?

[00:30:03] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And, and you know what, it creates some connection. It creates an environment. Like I said, the, the buildup, it’s a lot of fun.

[00:30:11] Brandon Ware: You made reference to something earlier and I’m just reflecting on it now. The idea of a notch on the belt or being just another, like another. And when I’ve had people approach me or us, and I felt like that’s all it is where question, you know, somebody approaches you, says something and then is like, Oh, you’re not interested.

[00:30:28] Brandon Ware: Boom on to somebody else. I’ve. I’ve been like, oh, okay. So yeah, that was, I mean, again, that was just my response, but it was like, yeah, that didn’t really feel that great.

[00:30:38] Jess O’Reilly: Like you’re, they’re only into, they won’t even have a conversation with you unless there’s a chance that you’re going to have sex with them.

[00:30:45] Brandon Ware: Humor me for five minutes, have a conversation.

[00:30:47] Jess O’Reilly: Well, that’s, it’s interesting because you probably don’t experience that much as a guy, but as a woman. We get treated like that by men all the time. Yeah. Right? Like if we’re not giving them what they want, they’re not gonna kind of quote unquote waste their time on us.

[00:31:00] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that’s a sociocultural… I guess norm around sex that you, you just are working to get to one specific goal and there isn’t the rest of the human interaction and connection and I do have a previous episode with Luna Matadas a long time ago where she talks about how unicorns are so often treated that way.

[00:31:21] Jess O’Reilly: Right? It’s just like they’re being hunted so hard. And so I think that’s something for all of us to keep in mind. Like, I will tell you, I remember when I think I was like 20 years old and I had first met you and I like we had talked about threesomes and I admit my only thought was how do we make sure we do this in a way that preserves our relationship?

[00:31:38] Jess O’Reilly: How do we find someone who’s a fit for us? Like nothing on my mind was about well, what? What kind of person, like how do I want to make them feel? What, what are they into? Um, and it was all like fantasy anyway. But I, I think that it’s just an important piece to remember that there’s all this privilege that exists within a couple.

[00:31:56] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s obviously not only when it comes to threesomes. It has to do with taxation. It [00:32:00] has to do with income. It has to do with how we live. That’s why it’s always my rule that if a third party comes out with us, like if one of my friends comes for dinner, I’m like, no, no, no, we pay. If there’s two of us, we always pay.

[00:32:10] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know. We have dual income. Even though some of my friends have partners at home. It’s just kind of the way I think.

[00:32:15] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I, I, I agree. I mean, the, the focus has shifted over time and I think it’s more of a, I see the human in you, which is, I want to be nice to you. I want to make sure that you’re taken care of.

[00:32:25] Brandon Ware: And like you said, if we go for, for dinner with somebody, I guess that I’ve taken your lead on that, which is if you’re, if a friend or a third person comes along.

[00:32:34] Jess O’Reilly: We’re going to, I mean, my lead is always pay.

[00:32:36] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Jess O’Reilly: I hate being paid for like always pay. Um, and so as we have these conversations, right, and there are so many considerations here, starting with the very broad about why you want to have a threesome and how you want to feel in a threesome to the very specific, right?

[00:32:51] Jess O’Reilly: Like, are you willing to play with the anus? Are you willing to put your tongue here? What is it that you want to do very specifically? I think I also want to offer the reminder that. Most people don’t have threesomes, right? We talked about that data last week, and there are lots of different things you can do, even with these conversations, to kind of facilitate threesome light.

[00:33:12] Jess O’Reilly: Um, with a partner, whether it’s a long term partner or any sex partner, you know, simply just talking about it in bed, right, like talking about what it’s going to feel like, talking about the things you want to do, talking about the people you want to do it with, uh, and that can be very intimidating and very overwhelming.

[00:33:27] Jess O’Reilly: And as you said, that can give you a taste of how you might actually feel in the moment. And you might say, okay, I can push myself far enough where this is a huge turn on because of the risk, because of the jealousy, because, and I’m not that everybody feels jealous. I’m just saying, that’s okay. common experience that the jealousy can be a bit of a turn on on both ends, uh, and just talking about it.

[00:33:46] Jess O’Reilly: And that can give you an indication of whether or not you actually want to go through with it. Uh, there can also be kind of that teasing when you’re out in public, right? Like, um, talking about how you’re going to go talk to someone or maybe flirting with someone in a. [00:34:00] respectful way that you’re not leading them on or being untoward.

[00:34:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I know that flirting really varies from culture to culture, like some of our cultures, flirting is very, very open and normalized. And for others, flirting is something that we’re, we have to be a bit more careful with. Um, it could just be watching a threesome on film, like watching a scene and talking about what you want to do and how you want to do it and how you want to insert yourselves.

[00:34:23] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, some people are having virtual threesomes, right? Interacting with a cam model. In a private room and making sure you pay them generously for their work. It could be that you roleplay, right? So maybe I blindfold you and I play with like my hands and my tongue in a toy and I, I make it so that you can’t physically differentiate between, you know, whose hands are on you, right?

[00:34:42] Jess O’Reilly: I talk about how, how I’m gonna share you and how we’re gonna please you. And, uh, the nice thing about fantasy is that you actually don’t have to consider Anybody’s feelings except for the people in the room, right? So no, you know, you don’t have to worry about somebody else’s emotional needs. You don’t have to worry about whether you hang out after, right?

[00:34:57] Jess O’Reilly: The role play allows it to be whoever’s in the room at the time. Um, for some people, you can go watch threesomes. Like, I mean, I, I really have seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threesomes or group situations. I’m not like counting them and I don’t, for me, whether there’s three of you or four of you or five of you, it’s kind of the same, same jam.

[00:35:14] Jess O’Reilly: Except for that whole couple plus one dynamic, which you have to be aware of. So even just going to a place where threesomes are happening, like a sex club, and not being a part of them, but being just in the vicinity of them, uh, and of course doing it respectfully. There are places where it’s meant to be exhibitionist and voyeuristic, and there are places where people are looking for privacy, right?

[00:35:33] Jess O’Reilly: Like if they’ve tied the curtains around a four poster bed, you’re not going to peek through the little slot. But they, you know, there are. Sex clubs with rooms where there is a, is it a one way mirror? So where you’re intended, where you know you’re going to be watched. Um, it could be that you don’t want to have a physical threesome with a third party, but maybe you just want to engage some watching.

[00:35:55] Jess O’Reilly: It could be that you go for an erotic massage and you [00:36:00] can choose to make it non genital. Right? It can just be erotic. And again, when you are working with professionals, please, you know, show the utmost respect. Learn everything you can. Uh, go back and listen to the Modern Whore episode of this podcast with Andrea Warhun for some perspective on how to honor and really show appreciation for sex workers.

[00:36:17] Jess O’Reilly: And of course, one, the number one way is to show your financial generosity because that’s why they’re there. Pay. Pay. A lot. Pay a lot. Tip a lot. Tip heavy. So we’ve spent two weeks on threesomes, which we don’t usually do. We don’t usually split the episodes, but I wanted to leave you with this. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to put the questions for consideration in The podcast notes, because I have some additional ones for you to consider as well.

[00:36:42] Jess O’Reilly: Some questions, not only on why you want to have a threesome, but also how you’re going to deal with distressful emotions, right? Like, are you comfortable admitting to jealousy, insecurity, distress, what makes you feel? jealous, insecure, and distressed. When you feel jealous, insecure, or distressed, how does it show up in your body?

[00:36:59] Jess O’Reilly: Um, what do you want to do in those cases? How can you self soothe? How can a partner or partners support you? What do you want them not to do? Uh, what are some cues to look for? in partners if you are feeling those emotions. So I’m going to put that questionnaire up there as well, as well as a specific questionnaire for couples.

[00:37:19] Jess O’Reilly: And I didn’t want to spend all the time on that today, but I can kind of quickly go through it before we wrap up. This is a questionnaire for couples to kind of moderate the Threesome within the context of the relationship. So whose idea was it? Do you feel any pressure? Have you indirectly or directly pressured your partner?

[00:37:37] Jess O’Reilly: What do you hope to get out of the experience? What are your concerns about the experience? What would it look like if it goes well? What happens if something goes awry? Like how will you communicate? How will you respond? How will you manage it within the context of your relationship with one another?

[00:37:51] Jess O’Reilly: What do you value in a third party, right? What type of person do you want to connect with? How do you feel about strangers, acquaintances, friends, sex workers? And what are you going to [00:38:00] do about your couple’s privilege? Like, how are you going to make sure that all voices and all desires are heard? and respected.

[00:38:07] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that there are questions that we can all consider and then there are some that are specific to couples. So I’m going to put those three questionnaires in the show notes, the general questionnaire for threesomes, the one specifically on jealousy, insecurity, and distress, and one specifically for couples to navigate with one another.

[00:38:24] Jess O’Reilly: And you can find those in the show notes at sexwithdrjess. com in the podcast section. So with that, We are going to wrap. Before I do, I want to say thank you again to Love Honey. They’ve been, as I said, in the business for many years. Awards from the Queen of England, and like Brandon said, I guess she’s freaky and knows her stuff.

[00:38:41] Jess O’Reilly: So do check out Love Honey online. We’ll put the links in the notes, but also you can use code DRJESS10 to save on pretty much any toy in the business. They’ve got them all. Uh, thanks so much, babe, for, for chatting with me today, and thank you folks for a brand new episode. You’re listening to the Sex with Dr.

[00:39:01] Jess O’Reilly: Jess podcast. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.

[00:39:08] Jess O’Reilly: And don’t forget to check out adamandeve. com. Use code DRJESS50 to save 50 percent off almost any single item with free shipping and free rush handling. Gotta go get them. And I was checking out some of the, they’re guarantees. So you can actually go ahead and try out these toys and if you don’t like them, you can return them.

[00:39:25] Jess O’Reilly: Up to three months, 90 days after purchase for a credit or a full refund. They’ve got a phone number on their website, adamandeve. com, and they want to hear from you if you’re not happy, because they are all about your satisfaction, so go get them, go get off and have a great one.

Most people fantasize about threesomes, but not many people – actually dive in. In part I of our Threesomes podcast, we dive into the data and get some practical advice from Justin Lehmiller – who answers your questions including:

Next week, we’ll dive into how to prep for a threesome with prompts, conversations and more!

Save with code PODCAST on the Mindful Sex Course on the Happier Couples website.

And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

All About Threesomes

Episode 336

[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are talking threesomes today and we are doing a throwback to a two part series with Dr. Justin Lehmiller on the doc today, because I received three questions about threesomes over the weekend and I think it’s a sign. So here we go. Have a listen to this throwback with Dr. Justin Lehmiller.

[00:00:27] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.

[00:00:45] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are talking threesomes today and it fits that today’s episode is brought to you by FIELD. And FIELD is the first dating app for couples and singles. They’re a pioneer in allowing couples to kind of explore dating together as a pair, and they’re open to all genders, all sexual identities,

[00:01:13] Jess O’Reilly: all sexual orientations from basically for anyone who’s interested in either ethical non monogamy or alternative relationship structures, or simply those who are curious and looking to kind of dip their toe into the pond. So do check them out. Field is spelt feel and a D so F E E L D and you can download the field app.

[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: It’s free and you create a profile. And once you have liked someone and they’ve liked you back on the app. You become connections and you’re able to chat. And if you want to, you can share photos and they also often offer an upgraded membership option with extra features. And yeah, so do check out FIELD.

[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: They’re one of the largest online communities for fun stuff like this. And it’s interesting. I actually came across FIELD in my research a few years ago. when I was prepping a training for therapists on threesomes and ethical non monogamy and they really are the [00:02:00] perfect partner for this podcast because we’re talking about threesomes and of course there are people on field looking for threesomes and later we’re going to be talking with their expert Dr.

[00:02:08] Jess O’Reilly: Justin Leigh. But before he joins us, I wanted to kind of dig into some of the data on threesomes. And later on, I also want to talk if we have time about how to prepare for a threesome, like in terms of communication and reflection and just topics to address before you start exploring. I don’t know how much time we’ll have.

[00:02:27] Jess O’Reilly: I might have to split it into a couple episodes, but we will get there. It’s interesting because when you think about. Threesomes. Don’t you think porn has kind of made threesomes seem like, like they’re the norm. Everybody’s doing them. Yeah, I mean when

[00:02:38] Brandon Ware: I think about threesomes, it’s, that’s exactly what I go to.

[00:02:41] Brandon Ware: I think about, boom, somebody shows up and then all of a sudden, like, the, the mayhem

[00:02:46] Jess O’Reilly: begins. Yeah, people with long nails are sticking them in all the holes they can find. And, and of course, the reality is that Although most people fantasize about a threesome at some point in time, most people are not actually having them.

[00:02:59] Jess O’Reilly: And when you look at the data, some of it actually doesn’t align. So there, there’s not, you know, a wealth and wealth of data in this area, but there’s a study by Thompson and Byers. I think it was from 2017, if I recall correctly. They were looking at young people, young heterosexual people. It was a convenient sample, so not necessarily representative.

[00:03:17] Jess O’Reilly: And what they found was that 64 percent are interested in having a threesome. So 82 percent of men, 31 percent of women, and of course the research unfortunately only looked at the binary. But that, you know, 64 percent interest only translates into 24 percent of men saying they’ve had a threesome and 8 percent of women.

[00:03:36] Jess O’Reilly: say they’ve had one. So, the split for men, 18 percent say they’ve had FFM, so woman, woman, man. 8 percent of men say they’ve had an MMF. Of the women who say they’ve had a threesome, 7 percent say they’ve had two women and a guy. 5 percent say they’ve had two guys and a woman, and just something doesn’t align here, right?

[00:03:57] Jess O’Reilly: If 18 percent of men have been with two [00:04:00] women, Shouldn’t more than 7 percent of women have also reported having an FFM threesome? Maybe I’ll ask Dr. Lehmiller about this. And then there was another study that was nationally representative. So this was a probability sample and they found that the interest in engaging in a threesome.

[00:04:14] Jess O’Reilly: So interest is different than fantasy, right? So you can have the fantasy, but you don’t actually want to do it. The interest for men was 31. 4%. And for women, it was 11. 1. The experience for men. So about 18%. have had a threesome and about 10 percent of women had had a threesome. And this was a broader age range, but I want to note that among younger women, so 25 to 29, 18 percent said that they’ve had one.

[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: So we’ve got some prevalence. I thought I’d just kind of start with that in case people are curious. I, I also wanted to talk a little bit briefly about the reasons why people want to have threesomes and they’re so highly varied, right? So number one, I do think that there is pressure or the shaping of norms because of porn, right?

[00:04:57] Jess O’Reilly: Like, it just seems like that’s what you do when you have sex. Other people say that they want it because they want that attention and the worship and, you know, to be physically overwhelmed. For some people I hear they want it because just it’s exciting, it’s risky, it’s novel. Some people want to do it for the power, right?

[00:05:13] Jess O’Reilly: For the validation. to know that they can. And I find that with my clients so often because I just, because of the demographic I work with, like, so many people who are A type and, you know, feel successful along the lines of our sociocultural norms of success. And so they want to also have done this to say they have to kind of check the box.

[00:05:31] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s an interesting one because oftentimes when it’s just to check a box, they don’t enjoy it that much. It’s like this really hot thing that they think is going to be hot, but in reality it’s just kind of another. Another sexual experience that can be hot or may not be that hot. Interestingly, I hear from people who want to do it in service to their partner.

[00:05:48] Jess O’Reilly: So not because they feel pressure from a partner. Not because they feel they need to do it to preserve the relationship. Because they’re like, my partner wants to do this and I don’t mind doing it. I’m kind of indifferent. I’m neutral. [00:06:00] And in some of those cases what’s so interesting is that sometimes the partner who goes in neutral ends up enjoying it more.

[00:06:05] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s an interesting dynamic to discuss. And then finally, there are, of course, cases where people are having threesomes to safeguard the self, to preserve the relationship in maybe not, in not such a positive way, where it’s like, my partner really wants to do this, they’re pressuring me to do it, and they kind of get led to water, and it’s maybe not something that they wanted to do in the first place, and oftentimes, you know, that, that doesn’t work out.

[00:06:27] Jess O’Reilly: A big question I get about threesomes is whom to have a threesome with. So if we were to have a threesome, threesome with? Like who would you want it to be with? Someone you know, an acquaintance, someone not, like someone we pay, something like, what would be your preference?

[00:06:38] Brandon Ware: So you’re putting me on the spot because you’re looking over at me.

[00:06:40] Brandon Ware: I think the idea of doing it with a friend or somebody that you know to me just adds more pressure because you’re probably going to see that person again, and if the experience isn’t what every single person wanted it to be, I think it would be a bit of an awkward situation. So Right now, I think it makes the most sense to pay a sex worker to, uh, engage in this fantasy.

[00:07:02] Brandon Ware: I think the first time that makes the most sense to me.

[00:07:05] Jess O’Reilly: Hmm.

[00:07:05] Brandon Ware: Do you feel the same or do you feel?

[00:07:07] Jess O’Reilly: Um, yeah, I, I kind of, I like the idea of that. That there isn’t the same pressure. That, you know, you don’t have to, you know, see each other over and over again. It’s interesting because some of the research shows that men actually prefer friends and acquaintances.

[00:07:20] Jess O’Reilly: And women, it depends on whether they are having a threesome as part of a couple or if they are a third party joining a couple. So if, the research shows that if women are part of a couple and they’re going to have a third join them, they want a stranger. And what I’ve heard from some people is that they see it as less of a threat to the relationship.

[00:07:37] Jess O’Reilly: And the same thing that you just just described to reduce the awkwardness and then if the woman, however, is the third party joining either a couple or two others, they are more interested in friends and acquaintances. So I think it maybe varies on your role within the threesome.

[00:07:53] Brandon Ware: I’m just thinking about what you said and I wonder for in heterosexual relationships, if the man, if it’s a [00:08:00] male male female situation, if the male would want an outside person so they’re, I mean there’s just a lot to dissect here and I wonder how men feel in that situation versus having an acquaintance that they know that’s a female if you’re having an MFF.

[00:08:14] Jess O’Reilly: So you’re saying that the men who are saying they want friends and acquaintances are more likely wanting an MFF, like they’re thinking about two women and you’re thinking that it might be different if they were joining two men and a woman? Correct, yes. Yeah, I didn’t think about that. Yeah, that’s interesting because So much of what we believe about threesomes is written along these heterosexual scripts, and even the data that I’m able to pull is from research with heterosexual folks, or people who identify as heterosexual.

[00:08:41] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, I think it would vary. And I think even for queer people, it’s different. Like for me, the gender just doesn’t matter. Like, I wouldn’t be thinking, Oh, I want it in this way. Like, I can, I can enjoy when I think about it in my head, a scenario with all different types of arrangements.

[00:08:56] Brandon Ware: I think about like some of the partners, like some of the people that, that we know, I just wonder if the, the men in the couple would be comfortable if it was their friend coming in and having sex, that third person in the relationship versus them fantasizing about somebody else’s, you know, a female partner in a different.

[00:09:13] Jess O’Reilly: It’s interesting because I just talked to a guy so he his partner is a woman and they had a threesome and he arranged it for her and it was a friend of his and so he like you know worked her all up and tied her up and there was this whole kind of story to it where he got her riled up and then he left and then when he came home she was kind of waiting for him and he blindfolded her and they’d already talked about it and he kind of had his friend sneak in to surprise her so this isn’t something that He just surprised her with without consent, uh, like it’s something they had discussed, but he brought in a friend.

[00:09:43] Jess O’Reilly: So I think it’s just, you know, varies from person to person.

[00:09:45] Brandon Ware: I think that’s awesome. That must’ve been, I mean, I wonder how the person, how his partner responded when they found out that that was the person that they’d been fantasizing about.

[00:09:55] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, he didn’t say that they had specifically been fantasizing about this guy.

[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: It’s just [00:10:00] that it’s who he was able to arrange, I guess. Oh. Like, sometimes it’s a matter of, um, and I’m not saying that’s the case in this person’s scenario, but sometimes it’s a matter of availability and accessibility. Who’s schedule permits. Right. Exactly. And who’s comfortable with it. You know, the other thing that people threesome going to ruin the relationship?

[00:10:18] Jess O’Reilly: And so. There is some data on this. So there was a study by Morris, Chang, and Knox. Again, a small, convenience, young sample. It was 196 undergraduates, so that gives you some context as to their age, and probably, you know, the longevity of their relationship to date. And 15 percent of them had had a threesome.

[00:10:36] Jess O’Reilly: And about half of them, 48%, said that the threesome kind of had no effect on their relationships. 17 percent said they felt closer after the threesome. And 21 percent reported a negative outcome. And so, this is a tiny little sample. I mean, I have to say, I’ve spoken to hundreds and hundreds, probably more than a thousand, probably, you know, could be in the thousands, I’m not sure, of couples who have had threesomes.

[00:11:00] Jess O’Reilly: Just because I work in groups, I’m not, you know, a one on one person. So I hear, sometimes, you know, you hear a dozen stories a day. And what I would say is that I think the planning affects the outcome. So if you’ve kind of led up to this and really talked about it, I admit I’m speaking more to the couples than the singles, although I’ve spoken to many singles as well, but not nearly as many as I have couples.

[00:11:20] Jess O’Reilly: I would say, and I can’t give you data because this is just anecdote, that they’re mostly positive reports. Like people, have a good time. There’s a good chunk of neutral reports where they’re like, okay, that was fine. Whatever. Um, I mean, it was sex, so that’s good. I hear some significant reports of letdown.

[00:11:36] Jess O’Reilly: So not disaster, but just letdown. Like, oh, I thought it would be hotter, or this was awkward, or I thought it was going to be like this, but all I had was someone else’s foot in my mouth, and that’s not what I was going for. Oh, I was also thinking that you could never sneak a second. a third person in with me because I’d smell them.

[00:11:51] Jess O’Reilly: I smell everything. You’ve got a wonderful sense of smell. I don’t know if it’s wonderful. It’s debilitating. I can smell everything. Like even if we’re on a hike and we’re near someone, I’m like, Oh, I can’t walk near them. I [00:12:00] can smell them.

[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: Seriously, somebody walked by us the other day. We were out for a walk and you come, you were like, I can smell that person.

[00:12:05] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not even that they smell bad. I just have a really sensitive sense of smell and I’m sure they don’t smell bad at all. So I don’t want to like make other people self conscious. I just have a very sensitive. sense of smell. Anyhow, back to what I’ve seen. I haven’t seen a ton of significant adverse consequences for people in these threesomes.

[00:12:24] Jess O’Reilly: The times that I’ve heard about adverse consequences is when they don’t plan. It’s when they stumble into it. It’s when honestly they’re drinking and something happens. It’s when not all parties, all three parties, are equally on board. And I’m not saying that you have to have an equal interest, but if there’s any pressure, if there’s hesitation and then somebody pushes through, sometimes, you know, that can be upsetting.

[00:12:47] Jess O’Reilly: I do hear more adverse consequences from singles than I do from couples. And I wonder if it’s because The couples have spoken to each other more in advance and really played out scenarios and talked about how, what they’ll do if they feel uncomfortable or jealous or insecure or surprised by a reaction.

[00:13:03] Jess O’Reilly: With couples I hear that it’s, it kind of gets them more excited for each other, right? Because it’s something new they’ve done together, sort of that formula for passion where there’s trust and risk and they make it through. From singles I hear that the greatest benefit, and again this is just what I’m hearing, is the friendships.

[00:13:17] Jess O’Reilly: Like these cool people they’re connecting with to be friends. So there are all these different outcomes, and you know, beyond the data, I also really am hoping to have some time to share dialogues and prompts for, I think, reflections and conversations that I think are useful, and I might have to do that next week, just depending on timing, but before we get to that, if we get to that, we’re going to chat with our expert from FieldNow, Justin Lehmiller.

[00:13:40] Jess O’Reilly: Justin is a research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, host of the Sex and Psychology podcast, scientific advisor to our friends over at FIELD, and the author of the book Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire, and How It Can Help to Improve Your Sex Life. Justin, the last time I saw you, We were kind of [00:14:00] bouldering in the San Diego area, weren’t we?

[00:14:02] Jess O’Reilly: We were climbing mountains. The world was in a state of normalcy. Are you still climbing and exploring? How’s life in your world?

[00:14:10] Justin Lehmiller: I’m starting to get back out there a little bit day by day, but yeah, you know, some things haven’t changed when we were out. You know, bouldering. We were also talking about lube and sex toys and all that other good stuff and still doing that now.

[00:14:22] Justin Lehmiller: So, you know, some things haven’t changed. There’s been a lot of sex talk and work over the last year, but not so much interaction with the world. But like I said, getting back out there.

[00:14:32] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Brandon Ware: I want to jump in really quickly just because if you hadn’t given some context as to bouldering and climbing, I think between the lube and the sex toys, like we went bouldering.

[00:14:41] Brandon Ware: And what is that all about? Is that something I need to learn about or like what’s going on here?

[00:14:47] Jess O’Reilly: Nah, man, we were just climbing between rocks. Justin, don’t you run into that, that you, you use a very innocuous term and people are like, oh, what is that? I remember posting on Facebook once that I was going snow tubing and people are like, what’s that?

[00:14:58] Jess O’Reilly: Well, it’s just going in the snow in a, in a blow up tube, but they want something more perverted, right?

[00:15:02] Justin Lehmiller: I know everyone thinks I’m talking about sex, even when I’m not talking about sex. If anyone can relate to that, it’s probably you and every other sex educator and researcher out there.

[00:15:12] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely. All right.

[00:15:13] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re here to talk threesomes. You are the scientific advisor to field. Let’s talk threesome. So from your perspective, and I think I know what you’re going to say here, but what even counts as a threesome?

[00:15:24] Justin Lehmiller: Well, the easy part of defining a threesome would be that there would be three people involved.

[00:15:29] Justin Lehmiller: It’s one of the few sex acts where I think there’s a bit more consensus. You know, for example, if I ask people what counts as an orgy, they’re like all over the map in terms of the minimum number of participants, but at least with a threesome, that’s pretty clear now, when it comes to like actually what takes place during a threesome, that’s where we run into, you know, different people defining it in different ways.

[00:15:51] Justin Lehmiller: So for example, does a three way kiss. Count, you know, and when you ask people, how do you define sex? You see that they’re kind of all over the place. Some [00:16:00] people define kissing as sex. Some people don’t count sex as sex unless there’s some penetrative intercourse taking place. And so that’s where, you know, the definitions get a little bit messy.

[00:16:10] Justin Lehmiller: And so if you ask people, have you ever had a threesome? You’ll have a lot of people who will say yes, but some people might be talking about a three way kiss. Some people might be talking about, you know, there was just mutual groping and mutual masturbation. Other people, there might be penetrative intercourse or oral sex.

[00:16:26] Justin Lehmiller: So, you know, it’s kind of hard to know what people are. Meaning or referring to when they say they’ve had a threesome, unless you ask about the specific activities that took place.

[00:16:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And it’s not easy to get funding for in depth threesome research, right? It’s not at the top of funders lists in terms of, well, did you touch them with your left hand?

[00:16:43] Jess O’Reilly: Was there anal tickles? Was there nipple play? And I hear from folks sometimes, especially I’d say MF hetero couples. Where one partner is sort of complaining that they haven’t had a threesome, right? So they’ve played around, they’ve maybe had some like petting and kissing. And as you said, groping, and maybe they’ve had sex with their partner in the presence of another person or people.

[00:17:05] Jess O’Reilly: But oftentimes folks will be lamenting the fact that their partner won’t have a real threesome. And I think we need to get away from that notion that. You have to check a specific act off the box and instead just focus on, you know, what feels good, what feels exciting. But what role do you think porn has played in prescribing to us what a threesome must be?

[00:17:25] Justin Lehmiller: Well, I think we all get a lot of ideas about what sex is supposed to be from porn. And porn helps to guide a lot of our scripts about kind of how sex should go. And so I think when you’re talking about something like a threesome, which most people have never experienced in real life, you know, if you look at the best nationally representative data points we have on threesomes, you find that about one in five men and one in 10 women say that they’ve had.

[00:17:50] Justin Lehmiller: A threesome before, but you know, when it comes to how those experiences actually go, I think a lot of people go into it thinking it’s supposed to look like what it looks like in porn. And [00:18:00] you know, that’s actually one of the big misconceptions about threesomes is that, you know, everyone’s going to go in and it’s just gonna know exactly what to do with everybody.

[00:18:07] Justin Lehmiller: Everybody’s going to have a great time. There’s going to be this simultaneous orgasm by everyone at the end, you know, and it doesn’t really. Uh, so, you know, porn can give us this idea, but I think we have to step back and say, you know, that’s really the fantasy that’s, that’s what a scripted threesome looks like.

[00:18:26] Justin Lehmiller: And that’s not what most threesomes look like in reality.

[00:18:28] Jess O’Reilly: So you, you bring up fantasies and you’re the expert in fantasies. So in your book, tell me what you want. You explored the fantasies of, I believe it was Americans, correct?

[00:18:37] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, there were 4, 175 Americans I surveyed and threesomes were really the most, uh, Popular fantasy, you know, more than 90 percent of people across genders and across sexual orientation said they’d fantasized about a threesome before of some type.

[00:18:52] Justin Lehmiller: You know, again, there’s a lot of variability in how that’s going to take place. And one of the other things I find when I look at people’s threesome fantasies is that most people want to be the center of attention and that kind of creates this conflict intention when people actually go into a threesome situation, because if everybody wants to be the center of attention, you know, You can’t really get that, you know, you’re going to take turns and you have to communicate that if everybody’s going to get what they want out of that situation.

[00:19:19] Jess O’Reilly: Ah, that’s really interesting. So that desire to be the center of attention, babe, is that sort of your, would you say that’s your, your perspective? That’s why you’d want a threesome?

[00:19:27] Brandon Ware: Yeah. You know what? Thinking about it, I don’t. I’m not trying to make excuses. I don’t know that I’d necessarily always want to be the center of attention.

[00:19:35] Brandon Ware: I think it would be nice sometimes to have that, but I think there’s a lot of fantasy that could just incorporate in your partner or the third person and, you know, focusing on them and that being very arousing. But I also think that the idea of a threesome sometimes is much easier than. The threesome in reality, right?

[00:19:53] Brandon Ware: Like in my mind, everything can play out perfectly. And, you know, I don’t have to think about any of the after [00:20:00] intercourse or after sex elements, right? Like I don’t have to think about the emotional side. I don’t think about like, do I have to make somebody food after or who gets the cab or, you know, are you staying the night?

[00:20:10] Brandon Ware: Right. So anyway. Going back to your question. Yeah. Sometimes I focus on myself. I think about it. And sometimes I think I could also take pleasure in focusing on somebody else in the, in the fantasy.

[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: Now, Justin, you mentioned that people want to be the center of attention. Why else do people fantasize about threesomes?

[00:20:27] Jess O’Reilly: Did that come up in your research?

[00:20:28] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah. And you know, I should mention, well. Most people said they want to be the center of attention. There’s a lot of diversity and variability in how these threesome scenarios play out. And I think that speaks to the fact that different people are trying to meet different needs through a threesome.

[00:20:45] Justin Lehmiller: And so for a lot of people, there is that wanting to be overwhelmingly desired by more than one other person. And so it’s very validating and it can. Increase your feelings of sexual competence and self confidence. And so that’s part of the appeal for some people, but another part of the appeal is just that it’s a novelty and something, like I said, most people have never experienced and human beings are just.

[00:21:09] Justin Lehmiller: Inherently turned on by sexual novelty. And so the idea of having another partner there, another set of body parts to look at and to, uh, touch and all of these things, you know, that, that novelty is another big draw for a lot of people as well. And it can also be a way that some people can explore their sexuality, right?

[00:21:29] Justin Lehmiller: So if it’s a mixed gender threesome, you know, some people are interested in that because it’s a way to explore. Bisexual or pansexual attraction that they’ve never otherwise had a chance to experiment with in real life. And we know that there’s a lot of sexual fluidity in people’s sexual fantasies. A lot of people who identify as exclusively heterosexual who have same sex fantasy, you know, a threesome is a.

[00:21:52] Justin Lehmiller: Perfect avenue for, for starting to explore that.

[00:21:55] Jess O’Reilly: That’s so interesting because so much of the research that I came across in threesomes, the folks [00:22:00] identified as heterosexual, and that’s, I mean, just speaks to the fact that the way we identify or the way we label ourselves doesn’t always reflect, you know, our behavior.

[00:22:08] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Because at some point, if you say you’re straight and you’re having sex with someone who, I mean, I don’t obviously subscribe to the gender binary, but if you’re having sex with someone who is either the opposite gender or a different gender or whatever the case may be, your identity can still be hetero, of course.

[00:22:22] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not telling you you’re not hetero, but behaviorally people might see that differently. I got to ask you about the disparity in research. So we have this research that says that about twice as many men. Are saying they’ve had heterosexual men. Okay. About twice as many hetero men are saying they’ve had threesomes as hetero women.

[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: And then again, if you dig deeper into the data, they’re saying they’re having more M f f threesomes. So how does this, is there any way to reconcile this data? Like is it the same, I don’t know, million women in the world who are having these threesomes over and over again or are lies? Lies? Are women underreporting threesomes and men overreporting?

[00:23:01] Jess O’Reilly: Both. What do you think?

[00:23:02] Justin Lehmiller: It’s a great question. And, you know, it reminds me of this other finding in the literature where when you ask men and women, and, you know, we’re generally talking about heterosexuals here, because that’s where most of the research is based. When you ask how many sexual partners they’ve had in their lifetime, on average, men report having about twice as many partners as women.

[00:23:21] Justin Lehmiller: And it’s like, you know, the math. Just doesn’t totally add up there. And so some researchers have tried to look at, well, what explains this disparity? And so part of it is that there’s some lying, there’s some socially desirable responding that’s going on where women are underreporting and men are overreporting.

[00:23:38] Justin Lehmiller: And one of the best demonstrations of this is they’ve actually done a study where they’ve asked men and women about the number of sexual partners they’ve had in one of two conditions, you know, one is where they can. Just report it as they would on a survey. Another is they’re hooked up to a lie detector or what they’re convinced is a lie detector.

[00:23:55] Justin Lehmiller: And what they find is that the difference between men and women gets a lot smaller [00:24:00] when they’re in the lie detector condition. So, you know, that’s part of the story. That’s part of what’s going on here. But there’s another factor at play, which is that. When you’re talking about something like number of sexual partners, we find that men and women have different counting strategies and women actually go through and count, whereas men tend to ballpark it.

[00:24:18] Justin Lehmiller: And so, you know, that’s another part of this story here. And when you’re talking about threesomes specifically. You know, there might be a difference in what people are counting as a threesome. You know, I haven’t seen any research that specifically looked at that, but maybe men have a broader definition of what a threesome is, maybe they’re counting more things as threesomes.

[00:24:37] Justin Lehmiller: And so maybe that’s partially what’s, you know, kind of explaining it. So it gets back to that definitional question of what does sex mean? How are people thinking about this? And that just, you know, makes it a little bit hard to interpret what people are actually saying on surveys. If you don’t ask really specific questions.

[00:24:53] Brandon Ware: I have a question about the average number of partners. So can you just tell us what is the average for, and I’m assuming this is part of your study, hetero, like males and females, men and women.

[00:25:04] Justin Lehmiller: So it depends on the study that you consult and whether it’s a college age population or, you know, an older, more diverse population, you know, in a lot of the college age samples that I’ve seen, you know, you’re looking at.

[00:25:15] Justin Lehmiller: You know, women reporting like three and men reporting like six, you know, it’s something like that. If you look at nationally representative surveys, you find that the overall average is somewhere closer to 11 or 12 that people are reporting. And there’s usually, you know, a gender difference study after study, you’ll find different inconsistent findings, but on average, men are reporting about twice as many partners as women.

[00:25:36] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, I, this aligns with men reporting higher measures in so many realms, right? So if you look at performance in the workplace, men are more likely to rate themselves higher than women. Like we see this just kind of across the board. And so I guess we always have to change our lens or take data with a, with a grain of salt.

[00:25:55] Jess O’Reilly: Now let’s threesomes. When you, you work with FIELD, so this is an [00:26:00] app that allows couples to date online. There are people who are looking for a long term ethical non monogamy on there, but there are also people just simply looking for threesomes for that hookup. And I understand the app kind of leaves it open for people to define how they use it.

[00:26:13] Jess O’Reilly: Do you have any advice for first timers who are interested in exploring threesomes in terms of how to approach it? I think you wrote a whole guide on threesomes.

[00:26:22] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, so there’s a few things to think about here. And one is just kind of like, how are you going to find a threesome? And a lot of people kind of start threesomes just spontaneously, they’re out at the bar, people are having a few drinks, and it just kind of like happens.

[00:26:36] Justin Lehmiller: And those are the situations that people often end up. Regretting when they’re a threesome, when it’s unplanned, it’s spontaneous, they don’t know the other people. And so there’s not like that kind of established communication between them. And it’s harder for everyone to get what they want out of that situation.

[00:26:52] Justin Lehmiller: And so I think that’s where an app like field can be really handy because threesomes are actually the number one desire reported by users of the app. And so, you know, it’s a good way to start by finding like minded others. And then you can have this communication beforehand about. What is it that you want to get out of that experience?

[00:27:10] Justin Lehmiller: What are you looking for? What are the other people looking for? And you can kind of talk through some of that stuff. And when you have that greater communication and intimacy with everybody going into the threesome, I think that tends to promote a much more positive experience. Because, you know, it’s very easy when you end up in this sort of group situation for things to move beyond your comfort zone very quickly.

[00:27:33] Justin Lehmiller: And it can be hard to communicate. In that moment in that situation and to express, Hey, this is something I’m uncomfortable with. You know, people have a hard enough time doing that when it’s with one other person, but when you’ve got two people, you know, the, the normative pressure is higher. And especially if you’re say a single person joining a couple, you know, you might not want to interrupt that dynamic between the partners.

[00:27:56] Justin Lehmiller: And so I think having that greater communication beforehand can make [00:28:00] you feel more empowered in the moment to say what it is that you want and to ensure that just everybody is on the same page. Going into the situation.

[00:28:07] Jess O’Reilly: And so you’re talking about planning, how is planning different for a couple versus a single?

[00:28:12] Justin Lehmiller: So that’s a great question. And, you know, there’s all different kinds of threesomes. It could just be three single people going in three people who are friends, or it could be a couple with, you know, a single joining them, right. And the dynamic is going to be different in all of these situations. But let’s say you’re a couple and you’re going to bring a third in.

[00:28:31] Justin Lehmiller: I think it’s important to remember that that other person is entitled to the same amount of pleasure as you are. And so it’s important to put them on a level playing field when you’re thinking about this situation to ensure that everybody’s getting what they want so that it doesn’t feel exploitative.

[00:28:48] Justin Lehmiller: And it’s also really important for a single who’s joining a couple to Make sure that you’re going into it for the right reasons. You know, you’re not just into one person and you’re using this as an excuse or opportunity to hook up with that individual. And you’re kind of going in thinking you’re going to ignore the other person because that’s not going to create a great situation or dynamic for everyone.

[00:29:09] Justin Lehmiller: Because when threesomes turn into twosomes, that’s where we start to see the jealousy and the conflict, you know, the negative outcomes happening. And, you know, you, as the single coming into that couple, well, you might. Have a great time in that situation and leave, but there’s going to be some aftermath that the couple’s going to have to deal with.

[00:29:27] Justin Lehmiller: And, you know, it’s not really cool to sort of believe them in that situation. If you know, somebody is going in and trying to use another person in that threesome,

[00:29:36] Brandon Ware: I feel like I hear that. A lot like, like, I mean, in some of the conversations, it’s, it’s like the couple, there’s one person in that couple who wants it more than the other.

[00:29:45] Brandon Ware: And I could just see the pressure ultimately resulting in a generally negative outcome for all people involved, right? The person, the other partner in the couple feels uncomfortable, just so many layers. So that’s a really, really interesting way to, to, I [00:30:00] think, approach the situation.

[00:30:02] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, there shouldn’t be that there shouldn’t be any element of coercion when it comes to a threesome.

[00:30:07] Justin Lehmiller: Nobody should feel like they’re going into it because they have to do it. They have to please somebody else. Ideally, you know, everybody is on the same page. They want this. And again, I think that’s where, you know, talking through all of this in the beginning is so important and so helpful. And, you know, if you’re in a situation where you’re part of a couple and your partner really wants a threesome, but you don’t.

[00:30:28] Justin Lehmiller: You shouldn’t feel like you have to have a threesome just to satisfy your partner or to stop that conflict from occurring, you know, it might mean that maybe you’re not a good sexual match and you know, maybe this isn’t the right relationship for you because if you start compromising yourself sexually, just to please your partner and your partner, it’s all about giving your partner what they want.

[00:30:46] Justin Lehmiller: It’s not about you that. That’s not a healthy situation to be in.

[00:30:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And there’s absolutely, um, you never want to do anything under pressure, but there are all these things you can do between fantasizing about a threesome and having a threesome, right? Like there are lots of different kind of steps along the way that may fulfill that desire for a threesome without actually having a threesome, right?

[00:31:07] Jess O’Reilly: So you talked about, for example, wanting to be the center of attention. So I always kind of go back to the emotion underlying a desire. Well, if they want to be the center of attention, what are. other ways to play with that desire, to manifest that desire, other than bringing a third person in, if you’re not comfortable doing that, I want to rewind for a moment to something you said about three friends getting together, because in almost all of the threesomes that I see and hear about, and it’s more than I asked to hear about, you know, hundreds and hundreds of threesomes.

[00:31:36] Jess O’Reilly: It is very rarely in my, from just from my experience, just three people deciding to do it. Oftentimes I’m seeing couples or singles. Do you see that often with just three people hooking up together?

[00:31:50] Justin Lehmiller: I mean, I know it happens. It’s one of those things where we don’t have a lot of great. Data points on all of this, because, you know, as you said, there’s not really funding to do this kind of work.

[00:31:59] Justin Lehmiller: And [00:32:00] so threesomes rarely get asked about on like a nationally representative sex survey. And in fact, the first national data point that I saw on this only came out in the last couple of years. So prior to that, we really only knew things. from college students and, you know, these other limited types of samples.

[00:32:17] Justin Lehmiller: So some of my colleagues and I have started to conduct more research on threesomes to better understand this. And, you know, what we see is that there is a lot of diversity and variability, but I would say more often than not, it’s usually the case of a, you know, there’s a couple and then a third person.

[00:32:31] Justin Lehmiller: Coming in because, you know, a lot of people, and I would say that that’s likely to be the case. A lot of people find it challenging enough to just find one other partner, let alone two at the same time. You know, there’s a lot of coordinating and logistics that have to happen for three non partnered individuals to get together and have a threesome.

[00:32:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that definitely makes sense to me. What do you want people to understand about threesomes before going in?

[00:32:54] Justin Lehmiller: So I think it’s important to recognize that the reality of the threesome might not live up to your fantasy, right? You know, I think that’s really kind of the biggest misconception. You know, that there also isn’t just one script for how to have a threesome.

[00:33:07] Justin Lehmiller: There’s all kinds of ways that you can do this. And I think it’s also really important to recognize that it might take a little bit of practice. In order for you to get what you want out of a threesome. And I think this is true of any fantasy that practice makes perfect. The first time you try it, there’s some uncertainty, some hesitation, and you kind of have to figure it out and you have to communicate with your partners.

[00:33:29] Justin Lehmiller: And so it might be that the second or third or fourth time that you try having a threesome, you know, maybe that’s when you really. Start to figure out your groove. So if you had a bad experience with a threesome the first time, I wouldn’t say to automatically discount that and say that you would never like threesomes.

[00:33:45] Justin Lehmiller: You know, I’m a fan of saying try anything twice, right? Because the first time might just not have been the optimal experience for that. And so, you know, something you can do if you’re new to threesomes is to consider experimenting with different formats. So one of the things I [00:34:00] did for field was to write this guide on how to have a virtual threesome, right?

[00:34:04] Justin Lehmiller: And that was something that you could do. During the pandemic, you know, to safely interact with multiple people and to fill, fulfill and satisfy your sexual desires, but it can also be a good practice run for sort of figuring out how do multi partner dynamics work. And so, you know, that’s something that you could try kind of like as a first step where, you know, the stakes are a little bit lower than actually having three people in bed at the same time.

[00:34:29] Jess O’Reilly: Right. I love that. And you’re minimizing some of your risks as well. I know, like, one of the big fears for a lot of people who are potentially reproducing in the type of sex they have is what do you do if there’s an unplanned pregnancy, right? Is this something we’re talking about? I know that, you know, the likelihood of pregnancy isn’t super high, but it’s still something that concerns people.

[00:34:46] Jess O’Reilly: And of course that is eliminated with virtual threesomes, STI risk. And transmission is eliminated. I think it also gives you a peek into how you might feel, right. So to be able to be kind of alone in your, not alone, but with a partner perhaps, or alone in your own space and think, okay, how am I feeling in my body at this moment?

[00:35:05] Jess O’Reilly: And as much as it can be a turn on and overwhelming with the virtual interaction, something that you, that you said that really stands out to me is that I wonder if we have to prepare ourselves to be disappointed. Not because, not because threesomes can’t be hot, but because. So many people build this up, as you said, from your data as the ultimate fantasy.

[00:35:24] Jess O’Reilly: And when you build anything up, when you hype anything up that big, you know, you’re creating an expectation that may not be attainable in reality. And I really appreciate the fact that you’re underscoring that just cause you have one bad experience doesn’t mean you never do it again. Like if we did that with sex, none of us would ever have sex again, right?

[00:35:40] Jess O’Reilly: One bad experience and I’m out. But we do that with more subversive experiences, or we, we hear one story about one person or one couple who had a bad experience. And we generalize that and say, Oh no, no, no, this happened this one time to this one couple. Therefore it’s toxic or therefore it will lead to a relationship dissolution.

[00:35:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I appreciate that message to keep [00:36:00] an open mind. I love your research. Love following along with the work that you’re doing. Are you working on a new book yet?

[00:36:06] Justin Lehmiller: Um, I am working on revisions for the third edition of my textbook. But at the moment it’s called the psychology of human sexuality. And so that’s my next book project.

[00:36:15] Justin Lehmiller: And then once that is out of the way, then I can start looking at other books.

[00:36:19] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Awesome. Makes sense. Well, I’ll be following along. I hope to see you soon. Are we going to get to go back to San Diego that when we were in San Diego, I should mention to folks, I won’t say the company, but we were working on product development and it was a two day workshop to come up with new projects.

[00:36:32] Jess O’Reilly: And I thought that was so cool. Such a cool experience.

[00:36:34] Justin Lehmiller: Oh yeah. It was amazing. I can’t wait to do stuff like that again.

[00:36:37] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my goodness. Yes. Let’s go. Get on a plane and, and then go hiking in between. We went to the coolest, I wish I could look up the place that we went hiking, but we went to this Canyon, which was not a difficult hike, but I just remember the pictures were so fabulous.

[00:36:49] Justin Lehmiller: Yes. And if you do a deep dive on our Instagram feeds, you can find photos of our little. Hiking experience. And it was, it was a ton of fun and absolutely beautiful. And then I think we got margaritas afterwards and talked about sex. So, you know, that was also fun.

[00:37:03] Jess O’Reilly: Checks all the box margaritas, sex talk and climbing mountains.

[00:37:07] Jess O’Reilly: Well, thank you so much for being with us. We so appreciate it. And we’ll make sure to leave all your information in the show notes, but folks can follow along Justin Instagram. that’s kind of hard to spell, but I’ll put it out there for you. And don’t forget to check out the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You to Improve Your Sex Life.

[00:37:25] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks so much, Justin.

[00:37:26] Justin Lehmiller: Thanks for having me, Jess. It’s always a pleasure.

[00:37:28] Jess O’Reilly: This is such Threesomes, it comes up in every single group I work with. It doesn’t matter where I am. Somebody is going to either ask out in the open or sneak off and ask me about threesomes. Yeah.

[00:37:38] Brandon Ware: Well, I mean, in addition to the fact that it’s a lot of people’s fantasies is what’s constantly reinforced in porn.

[00:37:43] Brandon Ware: I mean, we see you see so much where it’s there’s three or four people involved in a scene. So I think that maybe for that reason, it becomes a prominent fantasy as well.

[00:37:52] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to keep talking about this. So what we’re gonna do is just because of time, do a part two next week. And [00:38:00] next week what I want to talk about is how to prepare for a threesome.

[00:38:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I have dozens and dozens of questions and prompts and considerations. I want to begin with a self questionnaire, like the questions you should ask yourself before you prep for a threesome. I want to also leave you with some prompts to consider. different feelings like jealousy, insecurity, and distress, so we’ll come to that next week.

[00:38:23] Jess O’Reilly: I also have a questionnaire I want to share with couples, so something that you can talk through with a partner. And I really want to talk about couples privilege and unicorn complaints and what happens when you treat the third Like, they’re there to serve you. And really, like, how do we address that privilege?

[00:38:39] Jess O’Reilly: Because you can’t get rid of privilege. I know people hate that word, but you have privilege, you have privilege. So what do you do with it? And how do you manage it? I also have a three way discussion for things you can talk about when you find your threesome, right? When you eventually, hopefully, hop on field and find a second or third party to play with.

[00:38:57] Jess O’Reilly: And I want to talk about how to introduce a threesome, right? How to talk about it, kind of my three step formula applied to threesomes and how to create those what I call third party bridges. And I also want to talk about threesome light. So Justin had mentioned the virtual threesome and even that would feel like too much for some people.

[00:39:16] Jess O’Reilly: So I want to talk about what that threesome light looks like. So that is the plan for next week. We’re going to have to do some shuffling around to make that work. A whole lot to discuss next week. Yeah. And I just think all of these Questions are really important, like, to consider because the, you know, that’s my anecdotal experience is that the couples and the singles who prepare for it have more positive outcomes.

[00:39:37] Jess O’Reilly: And Justin said the exact same thing from his data. So make sure you come back next week. Do go check out F. E. E. L. D. F E E L D in the App Store. Download it, check it out, and just kind of play around. It doesn’t matter how curious you are, how serious you are. They’ve kind of got something for you. Everyone there.

[00:39:55] Jess O’Reilly: So thanks, babe, for chatting threesomes. We’ve talked about our experiences before, right? On [00:40:00] the podcast?

[00:40:00] Brandon Ware: We definitely have and you today we really hit the nail on the head. Some have been great. Some have been a letdown and Some would have been better kept in my mind.

[00:40:10] Jess O’Reilly: Okay Well, that’s like you just added volumes to it.

[00:40:12] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t even remember what we’ve shared in the past, but that’s okay. All right, babe. Thanks for joining me. Thanks so much, of course, to Justin Lee Miller. Folks, make sure you’re following along and thank you for joining us. We’ll be back next week with part two of how to have threesome.

[00:40:25] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.

Curious about kink, spanking, ethical porn and how to have better sex?

The inimitable King Noire shares his perspective of pleasure, pansexuality, performance and much more in this candid conversation with Jess & Brandon.

King Noire is an accomplished and award-winning writer, porn performer, artist, Master Fetish Trainer, MC, and global activist using the proceeds of his album ‘Music Is My Weapon’ to build a school, freshwater well, and medical clinic in West Africa. He raises consciousness around kink safety for people of color, provides lectures on the decolonization of sexuality, and offers sex education to audiences ranging from college students to medical providers.

Check out King Noire’s website here, and follow him on his social media accounts – Instagram and Twitter.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Pleasure, Spanking & Masculinity with King Noire

Episode 335

[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are here in Atlanta at sex down south with the King Noir. I have to read your bio before you come on. It’s the boys. King Noir is an accomplished award winning writer, porn performer. Artist, master fetish trainer, MC, we’re going to be playing his music, global activist who uses the proceeds of his album, Music is My Weapon, to build a school, a freshwater well, a medical clinic in West Africa.

[00:00:40] Jess O’Reilly: He raises consciousness around kink safety for people of color. He provides lectures on the decolonization of sexuality and offers sex education to audiences ranging from college students to medical providers to those of us in the field. You have a big following. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:56] King Noire: Thank you.

[00:00:56] King Noire: Thank you for having me. It’s good to be back. All right.

[00:00:58] Jess O’Reilly: So you just, you won a big award, a big award in the industry. So Urban X Awards, Pansexual Performer of the Year.

[00:01:06] King Noire: Yep.

[00:01:06] Jess O’Reilly: What’s that mean, Pansexual Performer?

[00:01:08] King Noire: Oh, shit. It’s interesting because I think this might have been either one of the, either the first or one of the first years that they’ve actually had that as an award.

[00:01:16] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:01:17] King Noire: So I’m honored to win it either way. I think. Pansexual as I guess as a sexuality is kind of like you fuck who you’re attracted to and you don’t let Gender or orientation or anything like that get in the way of you fucking who you want to fuck. I like that That’s that’s how I define it and then I think for the award I think the reason that I was even nominated for that award is because I do a lot of work with trans performers as well as cisgender performers, so I was extremely honored to get it cuz We putting in work.

[00:01:49] King Noire: So I want, I want to be honored for that work and it feels good to be honored by, you know, Urban X’s is big in the industry. So it’s like people are seeing it. People are acknowledging it. And a [00:02:00] lot of times they think that, you know, black men can’t do it. So that’s like one of those things. That’s just another arena that we’re looking to.

[00:02:07] King Noire: Expand people’s sexual pleasure and understanding.

[00:02:11] Jess O’Reilly: And pleasure is pleasure, isn’t it?

[00:02:12] King Noire: Facts.

[00:02:13] Jess O’Reilly: Like, we are so hung up on, whether it’s gender, labels, or orientation, or…

[00:02:18] King Noire: Alone.

[00:02:18] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:02:19] King Noire: People sometimes get hung up on like, Nah, I shouldn’t be… Yeah, you should. You should be making yourself feel good. Who better to please you than you?

[00:02:27] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I’d rather someone else do it because I’m kind of lazy. So if I could have someone lend me a hand or two, I’m about that. Now you wear so many hats. I want to talk about your music. I know you’re an MC. We’re going to be playing your music. You’re a master fetish trainer. I’ve always seen that in your bio.

[00:02:40] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I’m a big follower on Instagram. You have a lot of them. What does that mean? What’s a master fetish trainer?

[00:02:45] King Noire: Well, Jasmine and I came up with the master fetish trainer as a way to describe what it is that we do. Cause people are always like, what is it that you do? Y’all do so many things. We help people identify.

[00:02:57] King Noire: And experience their fetishes in a healthy and safe way.

[00:03:01] Jess O’Reilly: And a little context on Jasmine. Jasmine has been on the podcast several times.

[00:03:04] King Noire: Yes, my partner.

[00:03:05] Jess O’Reilly: We are missing her.

[00:03:05] King Noire: The one and only Jetsetting Jasmine. She’s not here at Sex Down South this year.

[00:03:09] Jess O’Reilly: She was.

[00:03:10] King Noire: She was supposed to be. She was supposed to be where we’re supposed to be hosting.

[00:03:13] King Noire: So now I’m going to have to have her in via satellite. But, you know, we’re going to, uh, we’re going to make it work. We’re going to make it work, but she is taking care of our two little ones right now. So they’re both under the weather.

[00:03:25] Jess O’Reilly: There’s something going around as everyone can hear in my voice. My voice is,

[00:03:27] Brandon Ware: I thought that was just your sexy voice for the podcast, but no,

[00:03:31] Jess O’Reilly: I am on the last 1 percent of my voice.

[00:03:33] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know how I’m going to get through the rest of the night. So master fetish trainer, what do you do? What can people hire you for? What can they experience and expect?

[00:03:41] King Noire: So people can either hire us for education. Or they can hire us for experiences. So some people they’re like, I want to learn how to flog somebody or engage in impact play, breath play, or whatever their particular fetishes, but sometimes just trying to go out there and learn, you don’t know who you’re learning from.

[00:03:59] King Noire: You [00:04:00] don’t know if anybody has any experience, credentials or anything like that. So we offer education. Well, other times people want that actual experience. They’re like, I want to be choked. I want to be flogged or I want to flog my partner and I want somebody there who can show me how to do it and then make sure I’m doing it properly.

[00:04:14] King Noire: So that’s what we do.

[00:04:16] Jess O’Reilly: What do people get wrong about impact play?

[00:04:18] King Noire: They don’t take their time. People usually go for like the. Their heart is spanked, you know what I’m saying? And it’s like, no, that’s not how the body works. So, like, understanding just physio uh, like, physiologically how the body works, what chemicals are gonna be moving around in your body and when and why, just that alone will help.

[00:04:34] King Noire: Anybody understand? Like, okay, I really shouldn’t just walk into the room, you know, pull back and swing with all my might, you know, because it’s also like there are wrong places to spank somebody or flog somebody. There’s a definite wrong way to choke somebody. And we say you always want after you choke your partner for them to return to you the same way they were when you started choking them because you could do some serious damage.

[00:04:55] King Noire: So it’s important to be able to do things safely, properly. And that also makes it more pleasurable.

[00:05:00] Jess O’Reilly: Of course, of course. So spanking. If someone says, okay, My partner wants me to spank them. Okay, they can go learn from you, but how can they start at home? Like, what would be your top tips for somebody who’s spanking for the first time?

[00:05:12] King Noire: First and foremost is find out what kind of feel your partner likes. Because just on our hand, we can create something that’s more stingy, we can create something that’s more of a thud, you know. Anybody who’s ever slap box knows that if you get caught with some fingers, it’s a lot different than getting caught with somebody’s palm, right?

[00:05:27] King Noire: What’s slap box? Slap boxing is instead of closing your fist to spar somebody, you just slap boxing with somebody. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a thing. It’s a thing.

[00:05:36] Jess O’Reilly: Everybody’s pausing to a

[00:05:39] Brandon Ware: little stunned. You know, I

[00:05:41] Jess O’Reilly: just want to watch people slap box

[00:05:43] King Noire: actually is now this league where they do like professional slapping and they’d be knocking each other the fuck out with that shit.

[00:05:50] King Noire: It’s crazy.

[00:05:51] Brandon Ware: I’ve I’ve seen some of the people they get knocked right out. Like they’ll just be sitting there and then. All of a sudden, they’re on the floor.

[00:05:58] King Noire: And they show it in slow mo and [00:06:00] everything, so you can see the ripples through their face and the snot and everything. It’s crazy.

[00:06:03] Jess O’Reilly: I feel like, Brandon, you’d be good at slap boxing with those big baseball mitt hands.

[00:06:07] Brandon Ware: Not only, I have a glass jaw. I’d be out. Somebody,

[00:06:10] King Noire: like, you know, just breathes on me and I’d be out. You gotta, you definitely have to go. Be like, I gotta go first all the time.

[00:06:17] Brandon Ware: Yeah, but you know, there’s that whole, you get all excited,

[00:06:19] Brandon Ware: the anticipation, then you screw up. And then you know somebody’s gonna, like, just smoke you in the face.

[00:06:24] Jess O’Reilly: So if we go back to spanking the ass.

[00:06:26] King Noire: Yes.

[00:06:26] Jess O’Reilly: So what type of, you wanna know what type of feel they want?

[00:06:30] King Noire: Yeah. So some, some people they like, you know, like with the, the ends of your fingers, that’s gonna be more of a sting.

[00:06:35] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:06:36] King Noire: If you get closer to the palm, the closer you get, that’s gonna be more of a thud.

[00:06:39] King Noire: Now even, even with where you position on the ass of where you hit somebody, like if you wanna warm somebody up, you’re definitely not gonna run in and just. Lay them out, like we said, so you want to kind of work in an upwards motion to kind of send all those good vibrations through the body, through the ass, because I mean, if you think about it, like when you’re having sex, you know how when you feel your body’s hitting on each other like this.

[00:07:03] King Noire: Especially in doggy style is pleasurable for because those are those waves of pleasure that’s going through your body. So it’s kind of like the same thing. So you don’t want to just while out, but as you build up, you can start building the intensity that you’re spanking somebody with.

[00:07:16] Jess O’Reilly: And do you sometimes want to alternate between something a little bit more sensual and comforting?

[00:07:21] Jess O’Reilly: And then something more stinging, like if you’re new to it, if you’re new to it, cause I, here’s what I think. I think people say, Oh, I want to be spanked and then people just give it their all.

[00:07:30] King Noire: Yeah. And that’s a mistake. Right. So there, there’s many techniques that you can use to either warm somebody up, relax their body.

[00:07:38] King Noire: Or, you know, if you’re trying to be sexy at the same time, you know, add more sensual touch with it as well. Sometimes people just want spanks as a punishment, or as a reward, you know what I’m saying? So it might, you really have to talk about it first. It’s not like one of those things that you just show up in the bedroom like, I’m spanking you tonight.

[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: This is where I feel like the master fetish trainer comes in. Because, you know, I think [00:08:00] about me doing it the first time. And then I’m like, yeah, I want to be all sexy. And it’s like, no. That did not work. Whereas I’m assuming you’re going to be coming in and like training people, the, the whole, the art, the seduction, the, the, the technique that’s going to give them what they want.

[00:08:16] King Noire: Absolutely. And that’s, that’s, that’s why I say there’s so many things that you can enjoy. And it’s like, as a couple, you know, I don’t have to touch either one of you, if you don’t want me to, I can show you on either. I show up with a bottom of my own, or I can just show you. Just in the air on a pillow, you know, I think it’s, it really depends on what the couple wants and that’s why I say that we’re masters of this kind of training because nobody has, even if you have the same category of fetish, the way you want to experience it, the way you want to live it.

[00:08:48] King Noire: And what brings you pleasure from it is different from person to person. Everybody’s completely unique with it.

[00:08:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And you just came off tour. You are touring, you’re on stage, you were doing a show, but you, while you’re doing these shows, so people need to follow you, follow you on Instagram. You’re doing private sessions.

[00:09:04] King Noire: Yes. So I go from. Sessioning on stage and showing people live what I do. Shout out to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and uh, LaFollies Burlesque. I had an amazing time out there. They were awesome. I got to work with Burlesque dancers, and I’m like flogging them, spanking them on stage. And then, you know, people might see me in the audience like, I want that, but not on stage.

[00:09:25] King Noire: So they can book me for private sessions as well.

[00:09:27] Jess O’Reilly: Speaking of, so tomorrow night we have the Big Bang. Yes. Add sex, add sex. Bang, bang. And you’re in, you, you and Jasmine, but I guess you’re on your own now. I know. You’re running it. Did you find, like, did you find someone to replace her? I mean, there’s many people.

[00:09:39] King Noire: Oh, no one can ever replace Jetsetting Jasmine. But I, I am going to have some special guests. You know, there are a lot of people that we’ve actually worked with for Royal Fetish Films. Out here in Atlanta or people that we work with through our black excellence, uh, Management company that’ll be on stage.

[00:09:55] King Noire: So we’re gonna do some things. We’re gonna do some things

[00:09:57] Jess O’Reilly: the show the show is amazing And [00:10:00] so I know that i’m always touting And promoting sex down south, but even if you don’t come to the whole conference You can buy tickets to the big bang

[00:10:07] King Noire: you can I mean sex down south is is just my one of my favorite times We weren’t here uh last year, but I look forward to it every year.

[00:10:17] King Noire: It’s, it’s my, my, like the conference that I’m like most looking forward to every year. So, I’m trying to make sure that I get to a whole bunch of events today.

[00:10:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, there is a lot going on here. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you do master fetish training. You’re also a producer, so you own a production company. Yes.

[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: Royal Fetish Films. Yes. And you’re producing ethical porn.

[00:10:35] King Noire: Yes.

[00:10:36] Jess O’Reilly: What does that mean?

[00:10:37] King Noire: Well, I know now people throw the word around a lot. So, um, for us, it means that. It is performer focused in the sense of we don’t have people come on with our company to shoot things that they are not interested in, whether it be, I want to try this for the first time, or this is my shit and I love doing so.

[00:10:57] King Noire: It’s not like this is the acts that we shoot for our company. If you don’t do them, then we’re not going to hire you. Right? So everybody is there because they want to be there. Everybody is there because this is It’s a form of expression that they’re interested in. Also, ethical is how we sell it, how we either pay people or give people access to that content to be able to sell it themselves.

[00:11:16] King Noire: So it’s not ever going to be a situation where somebody’s there and it’s just out there and they have absolutely nothing to do with it or aren’t able to monetize it in their own way or haven’t been paid properly for it. We want all body types, all genders, all orientations, all. Outlooks of sexuality shown on camera in a way that is reflective of how people enjoy their sexuality So if you’re super hardcore kink, then you’re gonna find some super hardcore kink If you are I want some super hardcore sensuality and you know Things like of that nature, we have the full range and you also have the full range of we shoot everything from I tell people we shoot from phones to drones.

[00:11:58] King Noire: So we have some people [00:12:00] like to get their porn in a nice portrait kind of look that’s coming straight from phone to phone. And you could tell that that performer set up a tripod themselves. Other people want that shit to look like a Christopher Nolan movie. And we have the shit that ranges from all of that because we, we.

[00:12:16] King Noire: I love, I love what we do. I love being able to express pleasure and passion and sensuality and kinkiness and fetishes in all kinds of different ways because sometimes they shoot certain things the same all the time. And that’s not how everybody, that’s not how everybody engages. You know, sometimes you want some shit that’s like some nice, beautiful light coming from outside, some natural light on the bed.

[00:12:40] King Noire: Other times you want that shit to look like everything is manufactured and everything is plastic and you’re just like, this is a complete fantasy, you know? So being able to have the real to the fantastical just makes it for more pleasure and things that you can then watch and then add into your own life.

[00:12:56] Jess O’Reilly: When you talk about ethical porn and actually focusing on what the performers are into, to me it follows that it’s just going to be hotter. Facts. Right? Like I would rather watch somebody doing something they love. So you’re not writing scripts like, we’re going to do double penetration anal today. It’s like, what are you into?

[00:13:12] Jess O’Reilly: What are you feeling? There must be a lot of checking in and kind of massaging as you go.

[00:13:17] King Noire: So like, let’s say y’all, let’s say I was going to be behind the camera for y’all scene. And you say, I don’t know. Tell me something you like.

[00:13:24] Brandon Ware: I like…

[00:13:25] Jess O’Reilly: I like that he put

[00:13:26] Brandon Ware: you put me on the spot. I, I, I, I, so I like to be…

[00:13:30] Brandon Ware: So let’s, I wanna, I wanna be on the bottom. I want her riding me.

[00:13:32] King Noire: Okay, so… I know, work, work.

[00:13:35] Jess O’Reilly: Did my aspiration come out?

[00:13:39] Brandon Ware: Tell me how you really feel.

[00:13:41] Jess O’Reilly: I’ll do anything for you, you know that?

[00:13:43] King Noire: Well, see, there you go. So let’s, let’s take both of those two things you mentioned. You want… Uh, just to ride and you don’t want to do that much work.

[00:13:51] King Noire: Okay.

[00:13:51] Jess O’Reilly: I actually just wanna watch, can we get someone else

[00:13:53] King Noire: so we could get somebody?

[00:13:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:13:54] King Noire: Oh, so we get somebody else to ride you.

[00:13:55] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. .

[00:13:56] King Noire: So that’s,

[00:13:57] Jess O’Reilly: I may, I may eat an ice cream on the corner. , she,

[00:13:59] Brandon Ware: where’s [00:14:00] Jess? She’s just having some takeout in the side, over in the corner.

[00:14:03] King Noire: Well, some people do have that fetish of being able to watch and, and, and also, Sit back and relax and enjoy a good meal at the same time.

[00:14:10] King Noire: So let’s just say that was the scene in this room that we have right here. So we can have Dr. Jess in a beautiful, you know, thrown, being able to direct who is going to ride you because you want that work. You want somebody to put in that work and you want to be on the bottom. So automatically from there, like just in this space, I know people aren’t looking in right now, but I love the natural light.

[00:14:30] King Noire: And so being able to sit from this angle to be able to watch you, watch them. You direct them almost. From your space as you’re eating. What are you eating? Noodles. . . I thought I thought you was gonna say rice. Just like rp. White rice.

[00:14:45] Jess O’Reilly: Slipping some noodles. Fried noodles and plain white rice. Like, you know, I’m so Chinese.

[00:14:49] King Noire: You know, people have, people have, you know, fantasies that do involve food. You know, that’s a huge fetish. And also there’s the cultural aspect of like, you know, some noodles are real good. You supposed to be slurping them. So some people are going to get the fetish of that who have an oral fixation. And then, you know, maybe while she’s riding you, y’all have some oral and it could be cut in with the, you know what I’m saying?

[00:15:08] King Noire: Like to me, it’s always like, okay, it’s hotter because that’s what y’all want.

[00:15:12] Brandon Ware: But I’m feeling the creative, like you must really, you enjoy the creative aspect of your job.

[00:15:16] King Noire: I love it. I think sex is like the. Not only can sex create life, but also it’s a creative expression of your body. It’s a creative expression of your pleasure.

[00:15:27] King Noire: So, for example, I was shooting a scene with Titania and Queen P when I was in, um, in Minneapolis. And the dungeon we were in… Had like a squat rack in it, so that, but you could strap someone up to the squat rack and all this shit, and I love sexual positions that are, that like, just have to be like, exerting energy, or that are tough on the body, because for me personally, when I feel my blood flowing, it makes everything feel cool.

[00:15:58] King Noire: So Jazz and I had shot a [00:16:00] scene back before where she was like eating my ass while I was doing a pull up. So in the squat rack I was like, oh, well now there’s extra people here so I can do more things. So I need you to like, be like massaging me while I’m doing this. Pull up with my legs in the air and like slamming her face into my ass to eat my ass.

[00:16:17] King Noire: Like that shit feels amazing, but it’s like the creative aspect of it. Like we didn’t know that squat rack was in there, but we got to use this fucking squat rack because you know, all, all the different aspects of, of creativity when it comes to sex. Like, even if you just tweak one little thing from what you did last time, you’ll feel something brand new.

[00:16:35] King Noire: Even if you’re doing the same missionary position, you can still fuck completely different every time. It really depends because I kind of try to set things up so that I can take time off to just edit. Masturbate. That too. That’s true. But. I don’t know, it’s hard to kind of quantify, but I do, I do probably shoot anywhere between five to ten scenes a month.

[00:16:58] Jess O’Reilly: Wow, a lot. Do you ever find like, oh, I’m not in the mood? And if you’re not in the mood, do you take a break?

[00:17:03] King Noire: Definitely.

[00:17:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.

[00:17:04] King Noire: Definitely. And, you know, I, I, it’s interesting because a lot of people think, oh, you do porn, so you just have to fuck all the time. And I do tell people, especially people who are new to the industry, if your body tells you something or your, your brain or your gut is telling you take a break, take a break.

[00:17:19] King Noire: But you know, it happens all the time because we also have complete outside lives of porn.

[00:17:24] Jess O’Reilly: Well, you have kids, you run multiple businesses, you guys, you folks do so much. And you know, I think there’s so many dimensions to what you do when you’re a role model to a lot of people. Let me ask you about the MCing.

[00:17:35] Jess O’Reilly: Why is the rap important to you?

[00:17:36] King Noire: I’ve been rapping since I was like, yeah, since, since I was a little kid and I love to make music of, of all sorts, you know, and porn, just porn music sucks. So I was like, we need to, you know, is it being that I had already done music and like I had a whole career doing, doing hip hop when we [00:18:00] had started royal fetish films, I was just like, I kind of want to make music specifically.

[00:18:05] King Noire: Under the moniker of King Noir, like, what would that sound like? What would that? How can we flip it and bounce it into the movies to kind of like make them different than other people’s scenes that you’ve seen because you know if people are just using the same cut out kind of music or Music that I don’t even know where they find it from.

[00:18:25] King Noire: It’s like 70s foreign music and shit Like how does that enhance the experience for other people and when we were talking about royal fetish films? It was always like when we started it ten years ago now so much porn used black bodies And the aesthetic of blackness, but was not created by black people.

[00:18:42] King Noire: So we want it to be like, well, what is, what is, what is it lacking? And what, what. Would enhance it and one of the things that we thought of was just kind of like Music is like always have sex with music on I kind of I when I don’t have sex with music I’m like all shop got put music on the shit You know I’m saying but it’s like I want it to be my music is then I can kind of write things that go with the fetishes and things that go with Different things that have not been spoken about in hip hop yet.

[00:19:09] King Noire: So it kind of just made me dive in.

[00:19:11] Brandon Ware: That was going to be one of my questions. Does one inspire the other? Do you know what I mean? Like, does the music inspire your production? Does your production inspire your music? Do they compliment one another?

[00:19:21] King Noire: Both, both. Like there was a song on the first Royal Fetish Experience album.

[00:19:26] King Noire: So Somnophilia is the fetish where you enjoy your partner. Having sex with you when you’re like sleep.

[00:19:36] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, I love that.

[00:19:37] Brandon Ware: Oh Tell us more because I feel like we’ve been down this road.

[00:19:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I love it.

[00:19:41] King Noire: So maybe I get too excited there Can’t get too excited never forget to know but it was like jazz told me that she had this fetish years ago And she was like I am consensually giving you the the right that if you’re feeling any type of way And I’m sleep like just just start just go at it.

[00:19:58] King Noire: You know, I’m saying so You [00:20:00] got, you got that too?

[00:20:00] Brandon Ware: I would just, I want to jump in because I’m like, this was us, like 20 years ago. We would, we would be so, I thought we were, but by accident, I feel like we were so exhausted in the middle of the night, all of a sudden we’d wake, I’d wake up and kind of just come to and we’d be having sex.

[00:20:14] Jess O’Reilly: But I’ve also told you that if you ever want to have sex with me when I’m, this is only for Brandon. Like, not for the, all the other folks, not for the other folks, but is anyone who’s sleeping in my bed? How about that? If you’ve gotten into bed, yeah, you have permission.

[00:20:27] Brandon Ware: But yeah, and it was incredibly hot that you’d wake up and it was almost semi dreamlike initially and then kind of coming to and realizing that you’re, I noticed like heightened, uh, like, like Senses sound like I got bit by a spider or something, but I’d wake up radioactively, but I’d wake up and everything was just heightened, like all the physical sensation of touch, like everything.

[00:20:50] Brandon Ware: And then you, I kind of wake up and we were, you know, a third of the way through the, the, the actual process of whatever it was, you know, having sex, the foreplay initially. And it was just, I thought it was great. So please.

[00:21:00] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:21:00] Brandon Ware: Somnophilia.

[00:21:01] King Noire: So jazz, she, we, so then we shot a scene. She was like, I want to shoot this scene.

[00:21:05] King Noire: And it was co directed by, um, Kaz and Shiro of the spread podcast. Shout out. And, um, so they, uh, we shot this whole, this whole scene and we made it like, you know, Have the consensual aspect, talk about it, because people need to understand, you know, it’s like one of those things you need to talk about this.

[00:21:23] King Noire: Don’t just start fucking people when they sleep. Then you need a consent, an enthusiastic consent. So we shoot the scene, and then after we shoot the scene, I put music to it, and I was just like, The beat that I had from it was from this producer that we knew from Florida, and I was like, Yo, that beat, that beat slaps.

[00:21:38] King Noire: That shit is hot. And then Jazz was like, I’ve never heard a sound affiliate song before. I’m like, I’ve never, I don’t even think anybody’s even used that word in a song before. Trying to rhyme that word in itself. That was my first thought. Somnophilia got me feeling your way deeper than REM. So when you back to sleep, we go back to freak and we can do it all again.

[00:21:55] King Noire: And so I was like, right from there. I was like, Oh, I got a word that [00:22:00] rhymes with somnophilia and then just wrote a song to it. You know what I’m saying? Then we got, um, my homegirl, um, Nora to drop. She wrote a whole verse about it. And sang and was like, yo, this shit, this shit is dope. And that was kind of one of the songs that led to me even doing an album as Kingda War.

[00:22:16] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. We’re going to play that music. As I said, I have so many questions for you. But I, I think because you wear so many hats, you’re an educator, you’re an activist, you’re a performer, you’re a producer, you’re clearly an artist. But when it comes to sex, because people come to you for sex, to learn.

[00:22:29] Jess O’Reilly: What makes sex good? Like what should people be doing differently?

[00:22:34] King Noire: It might sound a little cliche, but it really, to me, is about learning yourself. Sex always gets better when you know, and you’re not holding yourself back. From what it is that you either desire or what pleases you and I think a lot of us have so many hang ups That we’re like for example, I don’t know.

[00:22:53] King Noire: Let’s just take I know I mentioned it earlier ass eating, right? Some people whether giving or receiving might just be like, oh, I don’t want nobody messing with my ass That might change my manhood or whatever the fuck they’re thinking right or I’m not eating somebody else’s ass because that’s not clean And I’ve always been taught that ass is dirty.

[00:23:11] King Noire: Well, one, you know, people can watch. There’s a whole lot of washing that can be done. You can, you can eat some ass in the shower if you need to wash yourself. You should be doing that. Even if you’re not getting your ass eight, you should still wash your ass either either way. But you know what I’m saying?

[00:23:24] King Noire: But like these little hang ups that we have that then are holding us back. From all the pleasure we can have, you know what I’m saying? Or it can be little things. It could be like, I don’t like letting people get on top of me because I don’t feel like I don’t feel in control or I don’t want to ride somebody because I don’t want to lose myself because I know that position feels so good to me.

[00:23:43] King Noire: You know, it’s like, like there’s so many different ways and angles that we deny ourselves pleasure.

[00:23:47] Jess O’Reilly: And gender comes into this. I know you, you talk, because you’re an educator, and you have a whole program on porn and parenting, right? Yes. But you talk about masculinity. Sure. And so, I wonder what that means to you, because we, we hear a lot about [00:24:00] masculinity, the manosphere, some of the toxic masculinity that’s out there, but that’s a separate thing from masculinity in itself.

[00:24:06] Jess O’Reilly: What does it mean to you? Where have we gotten lost, and how do we find ourselves back to a… Beautiful place.

[00:24:12] King Noire: Sure. And this, and this kind of also goes to the last thing we were talking about. I think men leave a lot of pleasure on the table because we are wrapped up in these ideas of what it means to be a man, even in regards to pleasure.

[00:24:25] King Noire: Like it’s changed, like, you know, things slowly change. But I think about like, for example, like first scenes I ever did that I was getting my ass ate or whatever people be like, Oh, that shit is gay. Yeah. I’m like, how is it gay? And it’s a woman that’s eating my ass. Like, not the definition of what gay is, but also even that, calling someone gay or being gay as being referred to as something that is a negative.

[00:24:49] King Noire: I don’t know. If that’s what it is, then I guess I’m that like, you know what I’m saying? That’s fine. Whatever, you know, being able to actually let go of those things. And I think really, it comes from a place of masculinity being defined to us by what a man can control, what a man can dominate. And I don’t mean dominate in the fun way.

[00:25:09] King Noire: And what a man can kind of either build or destroy. Right. And Masculinity does not have to mean that for everybody and really masculinity doesn’t just mean those things because regardless of gender people can build some shit up or fuck some shit up regardless of what the gender is people can dominate a situation regardless of what their gender is, you know, but I do think there is this idea that a man is a man if a man can like basically hurt other people, you know, um, And I don’t think that that, I mean, it’s clearly not healthy.

[00:25:41] King Noire: It’s clearly not helping the world for men to define themselves by being able to hold women back in every single possible aspect or lash out at trans folk or whatever the case, you know, in order to get to a healthy place is to realize that masculinity, femininity are our [00:26:00] ideas, you know, and we all have our own ideas of what it is.

[00:26:03] King Noire: We can all ask. You know, 10 people and get different answers or hundreds of people and get different answers. And all of us don’t live up to what somebody else’s answer is for what femininity or masculinity is. So it’s important to find out what it is for you and how you can be whatever that is in a constructive way that does not Impede on anybody else’s idea of what it is and also hopefully Enhances other people’s ideas of what it is to be masculine feminine or none of that shit You know Like I just think as human beings We should all strive to be the best human being we can be for ourselves and also to add on to the collective world that we live in in a positive way If you’re not hurting other people, if you’re not fucking up other people’s shit and putting them down for who they are, then you live in a positive life.

[00:26:49] King Noire: And that’s how we can actually make the world a better place, ourselves, better people. And then you open yourself up to a whole lot more pleasure because people don’t hate you. You know what I’m saying? Like, people will want good things for you, you’ll want good things for yourself.

[00:27:01] Jess O’Reilly: And you don’t hate yourself.

[00:27:02] King Noire: Facts.

[00:27:02] Jess O’Reilly: There’s a lot of that.

[00:27:02] King Noire: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of that. And then people get wrapped up in those, like, toxic ideas of what masculinity is because they truly hate themselves. So they’re like, alright, I’m gonna go out there and, I don’t know, be fucking Rambo or some shit and Rambo up places that don’t need a fucking Rambo.

[00:27:20] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm.

[00:27:21] King Noire: You know, like, you see, you see these people who have, like, I mean, and we see it, unfortunately, we live in a world where there’s a lot of violence on everybody. Nobody is above or beyond violence in the society that we live in. And a lot of times that violence is from people who truly hate themselves and then lash out at people who seem to be loving themselves and one another.

[00:27:43] Jess O’Reilly: So you have a son, how are you raising him differently?

[00:27:47] King Noire: To be himself, to, to… It’s, it’s okay to, I think a lot of times as men, we want our sons to be the things that either we have [00:28:00] accomplished or the things we wish we could have accomplished and then push them to do shit that they really don’t want to find, you know, so it’s like trying to associate the things that he is interested in and support him in that.

[00:28:12] King Noire: But then also provide some of the knowledge and experience that I’ve gained in life like hopefully like hey There’s some big ass mistakes that I made. Please don’t make the same ones make your own You know and just trying to also show like I didn’t grow up with any real love from my father like that So just even being able to say like I love you I think is, is different than how I was raised.

[00:28:35] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that’s a big thing. That’s not something that was said in my

[00:28:38] Brandon Ware: family. I think it was said in my family, but it lacked meaning. And, and, but no, no, no. And, and I don’t mean, do you know what I mean? Like, it was just like, Oh, I love you. Yeah. Okay. Love you. You know what I mean? And there was no depth. There was no sincerity.

[00:28:52] Brandon Ware: And I think that maybe I shouldn’t say that there was, but it was flippant. And. Uh, I think when somebody expresses it, but then the actions reflect it, it’s, it’s so much more meaningful. And I think just listening to you describe how you love your son and your children. I can’t imagine that the world isn’t going to be a better place as a result of how you’re interacting and how you’re, you’re modeling behavior for how they should navigate themselves in this world.

[00:29:23] Brandon Ware: Like, it just seems like such a. A sincere and loving relationship that’s only going to make the world better.

[00:29:30] Jess O’Reilly: So true. Okay. We’ve taken so much of your time. Oh, thank you for having me. But no, I know you have to go, but I want to quickly ask you about Kink in Costa Rica.

[00:29:38] King Noire: Oh, everybody needs to come with Jasmine and me literally to Costa Rica.

[00:29:44] King Noire: Uh, we’re doing actually, we’re doing, um, this will be year two of Kink in Costa Rica. And we get people together to go travel through, I mean, it’s a beautiful place. We take some day trips and all that. We have a [00:30:00] amazing chef who cooks up everything that’s pretty much like locally called local farm to table type shit.

[00:30:07] King Noire: It’s the food is amazing. But then at night. We get wow, kinky, like, like extremely, like, so we do what it could be like one night we might just focus on bondage. Another night we might focus on, uh, on impact play or something like that. Kind of teach it and then it’s open play for the night. But these are people now that you’ve been able to bond with on our day trip to go to the beach or, you know, hung out with at the pool because it’s actually two pools.

[00:30:35] King Noire: At the spot. And we have masseuses on site and it’s completely just us. There’s nobody from the outside. That’ll be there. That isn’t somebody who either, uh, is working or another performer or teacher or something like that. So it’s like, you don’t have to worry about other folks getting in your way or anything like that.

[00:30:57] King Noire: So you can truly immerse yourself in with other people who are kinky as fuck like you are and into similar things or into different things. And then y’all could learn from one another and just, oh, we was getting it in out there. And it’s couples, singles, anyone can come? It could be singles, whatever your orientation is.

[00:31:13] King Noire: You know, we actually have interviews with everybody prior to, to make sure that people are there for the right reasons and whatnot. And then we have a big group meeting prior to, so people can either. Exchange information or just at least ask some questions of their fellow, their fellow travel mates.

[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: And I know you and Jasmine do such a good job creating a safe space.

[00:31:36] Jess O’Reilly: So people should check this out. King, king Costa Rica. Your website is king noir.com. But Noir has an E on the end, folks. Yes, king Noir do not.com.

[00:31:47] King Noire: You can actually go to kink and costa rica.com too.

[00:31:49] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, thanks.

[00:31:49] King Noire: So you could go, you, you can go straight there. And, Submit your application and you will be speaking with one of the Royal Fetish team members to see if you can come with us.[00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. I love it. Thank you for all the work that you do. You’re creating art, obviously, you’re creating beauty, you’re creating sexuality, sensuality, and you’re doing important activism. We didn’t really get a chance to talk about. I wanted to ask you about one of your posts around what has changed since 2020 when people wanted to hear your voice and now it seems like they’ve taken their foot off of that.

[00:32:18] Jess O’Reilly: Hmm have to maybe save that for another time.

[00:32:20] King Noire: Well, I will say this it’s interesting how people think, you know transformative how transformative a post or uh I don’t know a little a little thing that your company does once can be held up against for 500 years of oppression. It don’t really work that way.

[00:32:40] King Noire: It’s something that needs to be done every day by all of us to work together to, like we said earlier, build a better world. But if, and if people are interested, you can definitely find me at K I N G N O I R E on most things that haven’t been, uh, shadow banned or shut down. So Twitter or X, you know what I’m saying?

[00:32:58] King Noire: Instagram, kingnoir. com. KingNoirXXX. com if you feel a little frisky. WorldFetishXXX. com and Kink in Costa Rica. Lots of places, there’s lots of places, but um, yeah. And if you want to check out the music, Spotify, iTunes, Tidal, everywhere. Everywhere that is found.

[00:33:17] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, throw to your song. New single, King says.

[00:33:20] King Noire: Shout out to everybody in Jersey. There’s some Jersey club shit. Instructional fuck music. Enjoy. I hate to see you go, but love to see you walk away Your body language, talk, and everything you got to say Once them hips sway, strip you out that lingerie I can lick it all night, and I can hit it all day You got brains and a bod, down to suck your slob Pleasure that punani till you squirt like a tsunami Got me clapping up on them cheeks, snacking up on that peach Slap it up with this meat till you grappling on my tongue, pull you close so don’t run Filthy rhyme with a dirty mind Yo, comes.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] King Noire: Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Gonna fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Gonna fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on You gonna fuck around, get fucked on Said you love to choke Hands around your throat Said you love to Choke Then go down ya throat Said you love to choke Hands around ya throat Said you love to choke Then go down ya throat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Just pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Now grind in it, just wind in it Grind in it, take your time in it Now grind in it, just wind in it, take your time with it.

[00:35:09] King Noire: I stroke you, throw it back, I spit, spit it back. Lick it from the back, spit, spit it back. spit it back. Lick it from the back, I spit, you spit it back. Like, come until your legs shake. Fuckin till the bear break. Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break. Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break.

[00:35:34] King Noire: Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break.