Porn, Betrayal, Sex and the Experts — PBSE

Episode 225 comes from a heart-felt submission by the partner of a porn/sex addict. She reports that he is in solid, serious recovery, but he just can't find a way to become consistently honest! Here's part of what she submitted—

It's just a default position (lying) that he takes to everything, whether about his addiction history or about nothing at all. I understand that this is part of their recovery journey, but I can't take it anymore and I am thinking of divorce… if they are lying about nothing, then what else are they really lying about? I don't want to do it anymore. It's unbearable. He is devastated, and can't explain to me why he does it, but acknowledges that he does. Can a sex addict ever stop lying? And if so, how do they do it and how long does it take? Because in my mind, if he doesn't stop, he is merely a relapse waiting to happen… all evidence (EXCEPT for the lying about stupid things) points towards him being an absolute gold star recovery student. I keep holding on because he is so committed, but I can't waste any more time with a liar. We have four sons too who he is terrified of losing, and they are all really angry with him, but want us to work it out. They just also want him to stop lying.

Mark and Steve talk raw and real about their own struggles with getting solidly on the honesty path and the many addicts they have worked with over the years—

Why All the Lying?

• Avoidance of consequences
  • Experience has taught us that “honesty is NOT the best policy”
• WE ARE PAIN AVOIDANT!
  • Lack coping skills for accountability
  • Riddled with shame
• WE ARE OBSESSED WITH APPEARANCES
  • A glossy shell keeps the gooey center safe
  • WE CANNOT COPE WITH REJECTION - IN ANY FORM!
• Part of us doesn't want to stop
  • Not really ready to change
  • Not willing to get uncomfortable
  • Sadly, may have not had enough pain yet
• It allows us to control PERCEPTIONS, PEOPLE and OUTCOMES
• Territorially, we don’t want to cause our partners pain, either

Consequences

• We don't mature
• We stay in shame
• We stay disconnected
• The relationship continues to languish.
• Our spouses stay in Hell—high anxiety, reactive, guessing, hyper-vigilance
• The relationship WILL NOT GROW. EVER. (best Case)
• The relationship WILL DIE. (worst Case)
• The liar never realizes his true potential and authentic self

Where to begin being Honest

• Acceptance on the part of the addict
  • Impact, significance, scope, etc
• Determine their willingness to give up “control”
• START PRACTICING
  • Honesty
  • Accountability
  • Confronting
  • Being confronted
  • Making amends
  • Owning your past
  • Processing your shame

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 224, Mark & Steve discuss a topic that many couples face—the addict in recovery is trying to stay sober from his use of porn and other sex addiction outlets. At the same time, his partner is seeking her own path of betrayal trauma healing. in the midst of their individual efforts is the issue of their "sexual relationship." How can a couple balance his recovery/sobriety and her healing, while also navigating the role that sexual intimacy has and will have in their relationship? How do they start talking about this in a healthy, open, vulnerable and authentic way? How does he do so without coming across as pushy or pressuring? Here are some key points that Mark & Steve address:

-  Let’s get REAL—unless we’ve really done some deep work and practice, we ALL have dysfunctions in the way we don’t talk, or even do talk, about “sex” with our partners! 

-  WHY is that? Where does it come from? And what are the consequences?

-  What happens when we take what is often ALREADY not a healthy, open, holistic physical intimacy in our relationship and THEN add sexual betrayal and infidelity???

-  What are the complexities and the “balancing act” of a porn/sex addict getting and staying sober while ALSO leaning in and leading out in helping the betrayed partner to heal AND  navigating healthy sexuality in the relationship?

-  Is sex a “need," or a "want," particularly in the long-term? What is authentic for you (individually and as a couple)? 

-  What are the initial steps in seeking to create truly healthy sexual intimacy in a relationship?

-  You MUST decide whether or not you are both willing to get “emotionally naked” and begin to actually dare to be vulnerable, authentic  and real about this part of your relationship—YOU MUST OPEN UP A REGULAR DIALOGUE! This can be awkward, triggering and clumsy. What are a few basic beginning steps?

-  What “role” has sex played for each of you and your relationship in the past? What have you been “asking of sex”? How has this been healthy and unhealthy? What needs to change?

-  Can you become healthy by continuing on the current sexual track, or do you need to take a break; engage in a reset or a “sexual fast”? If so, what are the basic steps for this to NOT be a “disconnection disaster"?

-  True healthy, connecting, ascending sexual intimacy is ALL about the consistent dialogue, sharing, and intimate connections OUTSIDE the bedroom! 

 

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In episode 223, Mark & Steve address a submission by a PBSE listener who is in long-term recovery from his porn and sex addiction. At the same time, after many years of gaslighting, lying and multiple layers of betrayal, his spouse is understandably and significantly struggling in the relationship. Here's how he describes the situation—

Hey guys! Recovering addict here, coming up on a year of sobriety. First off, I just want to say I take full responsibility for the complete destruction I've caused in my marriage through my gaslighting and lying about my porn and sex addiction. My wife did not sign up for this when we married and was 100% in on the relationship when I was not. Now that I'm in recovery and have disclosed to her the extent of my acting out, a deep seated hatred has set into her heart. I'm often the target of verbal abuse that she uses to hurt me as deeply as she feels hurt. Threats are another common form it takes, threats of cheating on me, getting revenge, or telling me I'm ugly or worthless. There are times that this escalates to physical abuse such as throwing things at me, spitting on me, or hitting me. She is seeking help for her betrayal trauma through a CSAT and I feel slowly her healing is beginning, but these episodes of extreme rage are difficult to navigate. Can you offer any advice? We have young children which can make it difficult to draw boundaries around stepping out of the situation when they need caring for also Thanks!

What is the Addict's Daily Part in all of this (His recovery and Her healing)?

-  What does leaning in; sitting in her pain; leading out and “loving out” look like?

-  1 year sober vs. at least a decade or more of betrayal—how does this impact the levels of patience and “grace” he should be willing to offer her?

-  How can he practice progressive skills of self-regulation; stepping back; asking, “What is under this;” LEARNING TRUE EMPATHY?

-  How can he become skilled at navigating the line between "leaning in" and "taking a break"?

-  How does he NOT go back to an old shame mindset, co-dependency and/or become a “doormat"? How can he learn to set and LOVINGLY hold "healthy" boundaries? Does he even have the right to do so?

What does a "Healthy" Approach to all of this look like for the Betrayed Partner?

-  First of all, an extra measure of self-compassion and self-patience for herself is critical. In many ways this is all new territory for her—emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually.

-  Betrayal trauma is "in the eye of the beholder"—the thoughts, feelings, symptoms and timing are unique to each betrayed partner.

-  Seeking help that is outside of her addict partner is CRITICAL!

-  The discovery of his years of betrayal will understandably and legitimately trigger deep pain, heartbreak, anger, confusion and many other emotions. These emotions are NOT bad; nor should they be "shut down" or ignored. They should be given a voice. However, there are both healthy, toxic and at times, even abusive ways for this to happen—for her; for the relationship; and for their children. 

What is the Goal/Vision as a Couple? 

-  Start where they are, with ongoing raw, honest, transparent dialogue and sharing—but in a progressively "healthy" way.

-  Each partner must do his or her own independent recovery/healing work so that they can then come together to be "inter-dependent" and COLLABORATIVE. 

-  Remember, that is some ways, you are starting a whole new relationship; you are coming to see and know each other for the first time. You are seeking to place yourselves in the position to "choose each other and the relationship" or not. 

In episode 222 of the PBSE podcast, hosts Mark and Steve delve into a deeply personal and challenging topic after receiving a unique submission from a listener. The episode focuses on a couple where both partners have a history of porn  and sex addiction, but only one is actively pursuing recovery. The submission details the struggles of trying to support a partner who is resistant to seeking professional help due to past traumas and fears of exposing their addiction.

02:09 - 04:18: Unveiling the Listener's Challenge—Revealing the listener's submission about dealing with porn addiction in her relationship, highlighting the dynamics of both partners struggling with addiction but only one seeking recovery.

04:18 - 06:27: Recovery & Resistance—The listener's journey of recovery and her partner's resistance to seeking professional help.

06:27 - 08:36: Addiction & Hypocrisy—Mark & Steve share personal reflections on their own experiences with addiction, including the struggles with hypocrisy and denial in the face of needing help.

08:36 - 10:45: The Stigma and Fear of Exposure—Exploration of the stigma surrounding addiction and the overwhelming fear of exposure that prevents many individuals from seeking help.

10:45 - 12:54: Barriers to Recovery & the Power of Connection—The various barriers to recovery, including shame and fear of rejection, and the crucial role of connection and vulnerability in overcoming addiction.

12:54 - 15:03: Empathy, Support, & Relationship Dynamics—The importance of empathy and support in a relationship affected by addiction, and how the dynamics between the partners play a critical role in recovery efforts.

15:03 - 17:12: The Importance of Professional Help & Boundaries—The necessity of professional help in recovery and the establishment of healthy boundaries within the relationship for both partners.

17:12 - 19:21: The Potential for Recovery & Healthy Relationships— The potential for individuals and relationships to recover from addiction through committed work and mutual support.

19:21 - 21:30: The Role of Individual Recovery in Relationship Health—Highlighting how individual recovery efforts are essential for the health and sustainability of the relationship, and the dangers of co-dependency.

21:30 - 23:39: Love, Boundaries & Relationship Sustainability—Discussion on the balance between love and boundaries, and how unboundaried love can affect the sustainability of a relationship.

23:39 - 25:48: Facing Hard Truths & Making Difficult Decisions—The importance of facing hard truths within oneself and the relationship, and how difficult decisions may be necessary for long-term health and happiness.

25:48 - 27:57: Cultural & Social Perspectives on Addiction & Recovery—Reflecting on how cultural and social perceptions of addiction and recovery can impact individuals and their willingness to seek help.

27:57 - 30:06: D2C Program & the Importance of Community—Introduction to the Dare to Connect program, designed to provide a unique recovery experience through vulnerability, connection, and community support.

30:06 - 32:17: Conclusion & Encouragement for Listeners—Concluding remarks encouraging listeners to seek support, embrace vulnerability, and pursue recovery.

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Episode 221 comes in response to the heart-felt submission by a PBSE listener struggling after the disclosure of her porn and sex addicted partner. Have you ever felt the flame of love flicker and feared it might go out? That's the heart of our latest episode where we peel back the layers on rekindling romance in the wake of a porn/sexual addiction disclosure. We share our own stories of navigating the rough seas of love post-recovery, offering listeners raw insights on how marriages can not only survive but grow stronger through these trials. The journey is not just about rekindling what was lost, but discovering a new depth of connection and understanding with your partner. We can choose to redefine love—not as a whimsical emotion, but as a daily, conscious choice.

02:20 - 04:40: A Listener's Heartfelt Submission—Introduction to a listener's raw and open submission questioning "Where's the joy" after a partner discloses his porn and sex addiction and his years of betrayal?

04:40 - 07:00: Reflections on the Past and Present Relationship—Discussing the contrast between the listener's idealized past and the reality of their current relationship.

07:00 - 09:20:  Yearning for the Past vs. Accepting the Present—Addressing the listener's desire to regain the 'spark' and excitement of the early relationship years.

09:20 - 11:40:  The Challenge of Addressing the Submission—The hosts discuss the complexity of the listener's situation and their approach to addressing it.

11:40 - 14:00:  Insights into Recovery and Relationship Evolution—Sharing professional and personal insights into how love and attraction evolve over time in recovery and healing.

14:00 - 16:20:  Understanding the Honeymoon Phase—Discussion on the difference between the initial honeymoon phase and the pre-betrayal phase in relationships.

16:20 - 18:40:  Authenticity and Guardedness in Relationships—Exploring how authenticity and being guarded affect relationships during the honeymoon and pre-betrayal phases.

18:40 - 21:00:  Loss and Discovery Post-Betrayal—Addressing the profound sense of loss and discovery of true selves following betrayal.

21:00 - 23:20:  Love and Attraction Post-Recovery—Discussing how love and attraction change and become more conscious choices post-recovery.

23:20 - 25:40:  Evolution of a Relationship Post-Betrayal—Reflection on how relationships evolve and become more authentic after overcoming betrayal.

25:40 - 28:00:  The Realities of Love and Choosing Each Other—Examining the deeper, more holistic understanding of love that develops in long-term relationships.

28:00 - 30:20: The Desire to Return to Simpler Times—Contemplating the natural desire to return to simpler times versus accepting and valuing the evolved relationship.

30:20 - 32:40: Embracing the Present and Future of Relationships—Encouragement to embrace the current state and future potential of relationships after recovery.

32:40 - 34:55: Conclusion and Invitation to Explore Further—Closing thoughts and an invitation to explore deeper into relationship recovery through Dare to Connect.

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 220, Mark & Steve talk about a challenge in porn/sex addiction and betrayal trauma healing that is all about a "third party"—the family and friends of the addict and partner. Here's a situation submitted by a PBSE listener—

Hey guys. Would you consider doing a podcast episode about advice for friends or family trying to support the addict and/or the betrayed partner? It’s like I want to send my friends a guide around [how they can support me] Eg: being “supportive no matter what” & helping them understand why a partner may stay due to the nature of it all being addiction outside of sex. I guess I’m struggling to explain to my friends what I’m experiencing with my grief, relationship with God, triggers etc. They are amazing friends but they struggle to understand that it was an addiction and not him just being a cheater. So they just want what’s best for me & think I need to leave. Just an idea on a helpful episode/s for us!


For the Coupleship:

-  Decide as a couple, as much as possible, how much you want to share with others and then HONOR that agreement.

-  It's your story - don’t feel obligated to overshare!

For the Partner & Addict:

-  Be selective about who you confide in.

-  Sharing is a one-way street (you can't "un-share" later).

-  Before sharing, consider the benefits and drawbacks:
             -  How can this person be of help?
             -  How could sharing with them impact me negatively?
             -  Do they have the capacity to bear the weight of this information emotionally?

-  Always be authentic, but use wisdom in how deep you go.


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 219, Mark & Steve get super passionate in addressing a heart-felt, yet tragic submission from a PBSE listener. Here's what he had to say—

Hi, I would love it if you guys could do a podcast around the effects of years of lies and trickle truths on a full disclosure? I've been a PA for 18 years roughly and i've had a hard time coming to terms with my addiction and its consequences. My partner and i have been together 4 years and she found out 1.5 years ago that I was being unfaithful through my excessive pornography and social media consumption.

I have always had a hard time running away from conflict and I have a history of communication trauma and sexual assault in childhood. I done everything wrong with my partner, I lied and lied time and time again, I minimized and justified my actions where I felt I could and for most of my "recovery" I just found sneakier ways to access pornography and just flat out refused to be accountable for the hurt it would cause my partner in these moments. I don't think my addict brain could fathom accountability at these low points.

 I allowed my partner to dig through every site/app/device and find just troves of visits to profiles and video history, bank transactions. This happened hundred of times over the year and with each new item discovered my partners pain Increased. I had every opportunity to be upfront and honest to my best friend and partner but I was reluctant to let go of that fear. Its like my addicted brain was convinced its easier to sprinkle dust onto her than to drop a ton of bricks but thats just not true at all.

Unfortunately i have realized a lot of things too late for my partner at this point and we have just recently moved into a state of in house separation. We both have CSAT therapists but are in very early days of this and still have a long way to go. My reason for reaching out is due to the fact that my entire life at this point (our relationship/my dog / my home/my job) relies on openness and full disclosure. Is there any hope that I can ever navigate around the fact that i allowed my partner to be the detective and she uncovered at least 95% of what I've done with a measly 5% being my efforts. We have spoken for a year and a half about aspects of my addiction and I struggle to dig deep and expand on my occasions of acting out. This coupled with lack of honesty just breeds an environment for my partner to rightfully wonder, "What the hell do I not know? " I'm sorry if this seems a bit all over the place , but I’ve tried to express my situation the best I can. I appreciate the work that you guys and everyone involved do to make this available for people.

-   Why do habitual lying and addiction nearly always go together? Why do addicts fear telling the whole truth and being "seen" in their totality?

-  When a relationship account is SEVERELY overdrawn and operating from a deep deficit, is their any hope for reconciliation?

-  Why is acceptance of, accountability for, and consistent verbal acknowledgment and validation of the pain the addict has caused, CRITICAL for both him and his partner?

-  How can the addict use the "language of safety" and the ACTIONS that follow it to show true empathy, real amends and lasting change?

-  Proactive, DAILY transparency, not just around sobriety, is essential!

-  Why the addict must PRACTICE daily vulnerability, not only in his marriage, but in all his relationships. 

-  What place does "Formal Disclosure" have in this process?   

In Episode 218, we address two similar questions that we received from partners who are in betrayal trauma healing as a result of their addict spouse's sex/porn addiction behaviors. Here's an excerpt from each of the questions submitted—

Partner #1—My husband and I have been together for 3 years. In  late 2022, I found out he had been emotional cheating/porn-using our entire relationship. It continued until the fall of 2023. I have given him feedback on what I need from him to start trusting again and he tells me that I am putting too much on his plate. That he can only remember to do so much at once. In my opinion showing love and respect should come naturally in a relationship. How do I navigate this? Is it a loss cause?

Partner #2—My addict partner does have some mental health challenges—ADHD and mild Autism—but, he can focus and show deep emotion in various life situations, but NOT for me when I share my pain and desires for his recovery. He responds—"Well, what if I can't do that? What if I'm not capable of that?" It feels like he's using  his mental health challenges as a crutch and an excuse for his poor thinking patterns.

We (Mark and Steve) can SO relate to these two scenarios! We have both suffered from the feelings of huge "overwhelm/too much on our plates," and from the challenges of mental health struggles. A super significant part of our own recoveries, helping to create a healing environment for our partners, and making consistent deposits into our relationship trust accounts, was coming to healthy balance between "reasons/explanations" and "proactive accountability." We found too often that we were "weaponizing our weaknesses" and this created a huge barrier between us and moving forward with "real" daily, consistent recovery.

In this episode, we talk about the healthy role of reasons/explanations and how, at the same time, to take full accountability for one's daily recovery and meeting the needs of a partner as she progresses on her healing journey.   


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

We want to thank a courageous partner for submitting the situation and question for Episode 217. Here's what she shared—

Hi Mark and Steve, I want to thank you for making this podcast and continuing to tackle these hard topics in a way that is so relatable for recovering addicts and being compassionate for partners. My question relates to sexual intimacy and bringing that back into a relationship that has been crushed by porn and sex addiction. We have been married 15 years and have 2 kids, my husband has been acting out the entire relationship in many ways and we had a few small discoveries over the years but completed the full disclosure process over the last year. He has been working hard in recovery, has some sobriety and is saying and doing all the right things. I am also working on my healing and recovery and have seen a lot of personal growth. That said, we have been trying to navigate bringing physical intimacy back into our relationship, and it has been a challenge.

My biggest struggle is believing that he actually wants to be with me, is attracted to me, for me and not because I happen to be a female living in his house and he doesn’t have any other sexual outlets. I feel like I want physical intimacy to be organic so when he asks or says something about being attracted to me, I worry it is because he has been thinking about sex/fantasy. I feel like he is only interested in me because I am what’s available. I know he is choosing our marriage and family over porn and other women, but intimately is it actually me he is choosing? In the past I knew it was not me he was interested in, it was the idea of acting out and being in his fantasies. I know he was not actually with me when we were together and he was in his addiction. How do I accept that his interest or attraction is real, how do I believe he is choosing me out of anything but convenience? Is there anything he can do differently? Thank you for reading this and considering providing me with some answers!

-  Accepting the reality that a partner did not in any way cause their addict-partner's addiction and betrayal, nor can they cure/fix their addict partner—what CAN the betrayed partner do in this situation?

-  In response to the betrayed partner's question—"Is there anything he can do differently?"—Mark and Steve have a LOT of hard-earned counsel for addicts in recovery who want to help their partners feel TRULY chosen!


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Episode 216 is in response to a very courageous, transparent submission by a parter who is seeking to heal from the betrayal of a sex/porn addicted spouse AND also overcome her own sexual addiction. Her's what she sent in to PBSE—

Hello Mark and Steve! Thank you for all the work and dedication that you have put into your programs and podcasts and for providing the community with invaluable tools and resources! Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I have an unusual/embarrassing question. I am the wife of a sober porn addict. I am a recovering sex addict. I have been attending S-Anon meetings as a way to heal from the betrayal of my husband's porn addiction (and I think it's helping me to heal from my sex addiction as I'm learning that sex does not equal intimacy and I'm learning that I need to let go of my addiction to control everything).

My husband has not done any external recovery work other than white knuckling. We have realized that we have both hurt each other very much throughout our relationship. I feel like we have come to an impasse. I have told him that I cannot feel safe and secure enough to trust him unless I can see him initiating and doing recovery work. My husband has told me that I have never supported him in our relationship and have never been happy with anything that he does. So, no matter what he tries, it will never be enough for me. So he is reluctant to try anything new. I feel like one of us has to budge but I don't know how to move forward. I guess my question is: Can a sex addict and a porn addict (or 2 people with a sexual addiction) actually make it together? Or are we doomed to go in circles for the rest of our lives?

-  Lots of circumstances and complexities can lead to a "dual sex addiction" situation

-  There is a tendency to place the main focus on the "addiction symptoms." It is crucial that a couple be open and willing to explore and heal the "deep issues."

-  There are a LOT more issues going on in this coupleship than just addiction! What are these issues and how can they be addressed in healthy ways?

-  Why this couple can NOT rely on each other as the primary source for healing—what does an "outside support system" look like?


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services