Porn, Betrayal, Sex and the Experts — PBSE

In this episode, # 236, the betrayed partner of a porn addict writes a very raw and vulnerable message to PBSE with some deeply poignant, hard-hitting questions. Here's what we received from her—

Hey Mark and Steve, my partner was 4 years porn-free and then relapsed, using porn intermittently for about 8 months before I caught him. He says he's serious now and willing to make an effort. Your podcast has been very helpful for both of us in the weeks since the discovery.

My question is this: why is the knowledge of the abuse in the porn industry not enough to make men quit? I appreciate all the content in the podcast about why quitting porn is essential for a healthy relationship, but I haven't heard you yet discuss why porn is so bad outside of the user's relationship.

My problem with porn is that is made through the abuse, rape, and coercion of the women involved. I wonder how anyone can get off to it and still retain their humanity, to be frank. It's like using porn requires a person to turn off all empathy and objectify the women they're viewing. It requires ignoring the fact that in 99% of cases, she doesn't want to be there and is enduring it for a paycheck she can only hope she actually receives. Given the abundance of porn star testimonials exposing the abuse of the industry, why is that not enough? Why does it have to hurt men personally (through loss of relationships, ED, etc.) before they care about the women it hurts?

While this is a very deep and complex topic, Mark & Steve provide at least an overview and introduction to some of the reasons "why."
 

• First of all, there are NO legitimate rationalizations, justifications, minimizations or excuses for the choices and behaviors of a porn/sex addict—only explanations. And these have definite limits in their healthy usefulness.

• What is ADDICTION?  In 12-Step it is referred to as a “form of insanity.” Here’s what AI had to say—Addiction can be seen as a form of insanity because people with addictions do the same thing repeatedly, even when it has negative consequences, and expect different results. 

• Substance Abuse vs. “Process Addictions”—BOTH trigger the body into releasing its own “endogenous feel-good chemicals." Under the influence of alcohol, drugs, porn, and other "addiction outlets," what is “real” and “not real” in the “narrow Funnel” becomes impossible for the Limbic System of addict brain to discern.  

• But WHY go there at all?!  For myriad reasons (shame, fear, abuse, trauma, insecurity, taking the easy way/avoiding the hard, survival . . . the individual discovers his “go-to-place"—his instant escape, avoidance, pleasure-hit, etc and once that “link” is made, WATCH OUT!!!  We talk about being “BLHASTed” triggering the addict to move into the addiction Funnel. BE VERY WARY OF THAT FUNNEL BECAUSE ONCE INSIDE, YOU GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM TO CHOOSE! 

• This leads to “Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde syndrome”—Mr. Hyde throws everyone and everything Dr. Jekyll cares about under the bus. It’s “limbic vs. Logic;” Authentic, True Self vs. The Imposter. An otherwise caring, compassionate, decent man who sees "whole people," becomes a cold, calculating man who sees only “pieces and parts" of others, like he's looking through a drinking straw. 

• With all of this, WHERE IS THE HOPE? It's as simple as "Steps 1, 2 & 3."  It's about getting UNDER THE SYMPTOMS AND TRIGGERS; addressing the BLHASTed feelings FAR IN ADVANCE! You absolutely CAN step progressively into your TRUE, AUTHENTIC SELF; RESTORE YOUR HUMANITY, COMPASSION, SEEING WHOLE PEOPLE, ETC.! 

• Partners—our hearts go out to you–the horrific betrayal is NOT your fault; you don’t deserve it in any way and you can’t MAKE

In Episode 235, a PBSE listener writes in to ask Mark & Steve for guidance on how to best support his partner going forward. The couple were together off and on for 11 years and then married for the last 10 years. During the entire span of 21 years, he has struggled with sex/porn addiction and alcohol abuse. Recently, he got serious about getting into recovery, for both his alcohol dependency and his sex/porn addiction. As an essential part of his recovery and her healing, under the direction of a therapist, they engaged in their first "Discovery Day," where the truth about his decades-long addictions, gaslighting, lying, manipulation, etc., came out into the light. He seems determined to keep moving forward in his recovery and is asking, "Now what? How can I be there for her in this time immediately after disclosure and going forward?" 

Mark and Steve call upon their decades-long experience with all aspects of the Disclosure process and what it takes for an addict to continue progressing in recovery and help his partner start and continue healing from betrayal trauma—

• All “disclosures” are not created equal! There are a number of parts of the addict’s submission that cause concern—
  • He indicates he wasn’t fully prepared for the Disclosure. What does it realistically take to “be prepared”?
  • They only had a 45-minute session set aside for D-day. Why might this be a problem?
  • It appears that the continuance of his disclosure and her questions happened 2 days later and then again 2 days after that—and apparently without the therapist. Where can this approach go wrong?
  • What ARE the parts of an effective Disclosure? The 3 FOUNDATIONAL FOOTINGS—Disclosure; Impact; and Amends.
• After all three parts of a formal Disclosure, THEN WHAT? 
  • This is NOT a “one and done”! It's an “intimacy doorway” we walk through and it is just the beginning.
  • Going forward is all about “Living Amends” on the part of the addict in recovery.
  • Consistency, consistency, consistency—a trajectory/up-ward spiral that includes many efforts on the part of the addict including leaning in; leading out; proactively pursuing recovery; proactively anticipating and participating in the healing partner's needs, and more. 

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 233, Mark & Steve respond to a very heart-felt submission from a betrayed partner, who asks some very hard questions about her relationship with a partner who is a porn/sex addict in recovery. Here's what she submitted to PBSE—

Hi Mark and Steve, I’m feeling a lot of apathy in my marriage and I don’t understand the point in staying. I’ve been with my husband for two years and married for less than six months. We have been separated for two weeks now because he has kept relapsing on porn. I have been previously married and initiated the divorce when I realized I was in a psychologically abusive marriage. My current husband has the pattern of—a [new disclosure day,] then a honeymoon period where he makes changes and has lots of epiphanies, and then within a couple of weeks he slides backwards and then he is shocked when he relapses again. This time around it looks like he is throwing himself into recovery: 12 step attendance, therapy, daily accountability partner, journaling, meeting with our religious leader. But I just don’t believe in any of it. I’m waiting for the cycle to repeat itself. I go to my own support groups and I listen to these sad women and the whole time I’m thinking, “why are we putting up with this? Why are we risking our well-being for the slim chance our addict spouses will change decades of ingrained behavior?” I want to leave. I know life goes on after divorce. I know I’ll be ok. Currently I stay because God has told me to give it more time. But I am not interested in being another woman whose spouse is still relapsing years later. Could you please tell us spouses what’s the point in staying? What is there to be gained for us?

-  In the Dare to Connect program, we are currently diving deep into what it means to get in-tune with one's authentic wants and needs in a relationship and how to set healthy boundaries around this authenticity.

-  Too often in our culture, it's not safe to express true wants and needs, or we're used to them not being consistently met anyway, so we naturally default to hopelessness, apathy and exhaustion.

-  How can betrayed partners peel back the layers on what they truly and authentically want and need at their deepest core--and HOW can they voice these and place healthy boundaries around them?

-  How can a betrayed partner use a "Pros & Cons" list to get raw and real in the decision about whether to stay or go—and how can she talk openly and vulnerably with her addict partner about this list?

-  For many betrayed partners, it IS authentic to keep having hope, being optimistic and keep seeing the good in their addict partners. But are there limits on this approach? When does it leave the realm of being "authentic"?

-  Why a betrayed partner should ALWAYS make life-altering decisions from a place of EMPOWERMENT and NEVER from a boxed-in place of helplessness.


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In PBSE Episode 232, Mark & Steve respond to a listener's experience and questions with regard to the approach to Betrayal Trauma healing that PBSE and Dare to Connect take, vs. the experience in 12-Step groups. Here's what the partner of a porn/sex addict submitted to PBSE—

Is it me or are the approaches of partner-oriented 12-step fellowships the opposite of the recovery approach taken in PBSE podcasts? The podcasts are all about connection and boundaries. The partner’s 12-step fellowship I attend feels all about ignoring your partner's actions and not letting his actions hurt you. And doing what makes you happy? So it’s about disconnection…. Right? Why is it that they (12-Step groups) are popular on both reddit and your podcasts? Am I seeing this wrong?? Or is there something about those 12 step fellowships that I don’t understand??

On the surface, the approach in PBSE/Dare to Connect vs. 12-Step for partners, can in some ways seem very different. However, they actually are the same fundamental approach, but from two different directions!

Here are essentially the two questions/observations about 12-Step, presented by this betrayed partner—

“It’s all about ignoring your partner’s actions… right?”

- NO! It’s about SURRENDERING your partner’s actions, focusing on yourself (including your trauma & pain) and what you CAN control, which is boundaries built first around your own safety, needs and wants, and then incorporated properly into a committed relationship. This allows for personal healing and the most optimal functioning of the relationship. As recovery and healing progress, a partner uses healthy boundaries to create safety and expectations for what is needed for the rebuilding of trust and moving toward deeper connection.

“It’s all about disconnection…. Right?”

- It's about establishing and holding boundaries around the needs of the self FIRST and learning how to fill your own bucket in healthy ways.

- Depending on how early one is in healing and recovery/how deep the enmeshment trends run in each individual/in the relationship, MAINTAINING LONG-TERM HEALTHY CONNECTION SOMETIMES MEANS SHORT-TERM DISCONNECTION.

- Once personal healing, healthy boundary setting & holding, and healthy sovereignty/independence are happening in a sustainable way, it allows us to authentically connect with those in the world around us, INCLUDING our addict partners.

- Mark and his partner, and Steve and his partner have the best marriages they've ever had, BECAUSE they don’t "need" each other (aren't "needy") the way that they used to. They each work to stand emotionally on their own two feet, and support each other wherever and whenever they can, WITHOUT taking ownership of the other person’s “stuff."

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Episode 231 comes in response to a very raw and real submission by a PBSE listener who is the partner of a sex addict. Here's what she vulnerably expressed—

I’m the partner of a sex/porn addict who has a 3-4 year history of lying about being in “recovery.” Even to sponsors, men groups & therapists. My experience has always been my discovery, never his disclosure, and death by a thousand cuts over the years. He states he is now “taking his recovery seriously.” That’s to be seen. I’m not writing on what to do about him. I’m writing to understand and get closure for myself from an addiction perspective since it has consistently been denied me. When in active addiction or in actual recovery, is it true to believe that sexually and aesthetically I will always be “the lesser thing” or major effort will be required on his part to simply desire me in a way that so many other women are/have been desirable to him? I’ve watched him put tons of effort and protection around his efforts to desire other women. But when it comes to me, there’s absolutely nothing there. No pursuit, no flirting, no dates, no chivalry, no sex, and no love. He acts bored, uninterested and even bothered by my presence. He calls this "being sober." I call it being more than alone and it's led me to consider ACTUALLY being alone rather than suffering while waiting for something that seemingly is never coming. My mental health is demanding I get away from this with urgency. I’ve wanted my family to stay together but not at the detriment of my own health. He’s obviously more interested in other women and my concern is that since I’ve already been determined as “less than” to him, I will never be enough and what he truly desires—even if he does get into real, active recovery.

In this episode, Mark & Steve get raw and real about how to approach this situation form the aspect of a partner that is AUTHENTIC, EMPOWERED, and BOUNDARIED!

How does the partner of a sex/porn addict get in touch with her true, authentic WANTS and NEEDS?  What can easily derail this process? What are the obstacles that prevent a partner from fully engaging in the process of determining and expressing these wants and needs?

Why are these wants and needs critical when making life-altering decisions about a relationship?

Why are BOUNDARIES the GRAND KEY to getting wants and needs met OR deciding to move on?


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 230, the betrayed parter of a porn/sex addict submitted her situation and some questions to PBSE surrounding the CRITICAL issue of "restitution." Here's how she expressed it—

Over the course of our 25 year long marriage, my husband had two emotional affairs, a decade and a half long porn addiction and a 2 year long physical and emotional affair with a coworker. I was completely blindsided—no inklings or gut feelings. It has been brutal but we are working hard to heal. He has been in honest recovery for a little over a year. He has been through the 12 Steps and worked with our ecclesiastical leader. Both have encouraged some form of restitution. Obviously, he can’t unsee all the porn and undo all the selfish, hurtful things he did and said to me. I have asked him what restitution looks like (or means) for him. He said it was to try and become his best, highest self that God intends him to be —living wholeheartedly and try to not cause anymore suffering in the world. Is that restitution? Is working on yourself to be a better human and husband the same as making restitution? It seems like that is what he should’ve been doing - independent of me - all along. If that isn’t restitution—then what is? How do you make restitution for serious betrayals?

In this episode, Mark & Steve get SUPER passionate, raw and real about this issue! 

• Let’s Talk Restitution for a Minute:
  • Sexual betrayal in a relationship is like a major "robbery"! Why and how?
    • Restitution IS—
      • A demonstration of contrition
      • A FULL (as much as possible) RESTORATION of WHAT WAS STOLEN:
        • Innocence
        • Hope
        • Connection
        • Trust
        • Time
        • Commitment
        • Fidelity
        • Her ENTIRE ESSENCE
    • Restitution is NOT—
      • Something the addict determines
      • Doing the things that you should have done all along—getting to the “starting line” that she thought she had and you promised in the beginning, such as—
        • Proactively connecting—being FULLY present
        • Making and Keeping COMMITMENTS
        • Providing exclusivity
        • Pursuing your partner RELENTLESSLY
• How does a porn/sex addict in recovery actually provide restitution following betrayal?
  • Creatively and Proactively, he does the following—
    • Inquire: what have I stolen from you? Her narrative, NOT YOURS!
    • Communicate: Sincere, complete apologies, including commitments for long-term change and consistent follow-through. Provide ONGOING empathy where needed.
    • Provide potential ideas for restitution: come up with a list, show how YOU (not her) are going to sacrifice to make these changes.
    • Collaborate with her: Share your ideas, humbly ask for feedback, and make consistent ongoing change as necessary.

In Episode 229, Mark & Steve answer some very TOUGH questions asked by a partner seeking to heal from the betrayal trauma caused by her porn/sex addicted partner. Here's what she sent in to PBSE:

Do I just have to accept he can never be faithful? That an addict will always be an addict so he will always have to fight the want of others? There will always be temptation but recovery means being able to face it and not let it overpower? I don't want that. I don't want urges and triggers just fought off. I want them gone. If they will always exist, the addiction will always exist that says to me he will always have a want for others, a want for more. It says he can never be truly faithful. That I cannot be his only desire. I cannot be enough for him. So in staying, I just have to accept that?

First, we have SO MUCH EMPATHY FOR THIS PARTNER!!!  We always ask, “What is under these heart-felt expressions; this pain? What are betrayed partners asking for at the deepest levels?

• What they were promised in the beginning!
  • To be desired, pursued, exclusive, CHOSEN!
  • To KNOW who THEY are choosing–full honesty and transparency
  • To be SAFE and not endlessly have to be hyper-vigilant, on-guard, watching to see what he’s watching, keeping track of him . . . 
  • To NOT be in a COMPETITION for his attention, affection, desires, loyalty, faithfulness, etc. 
• Does a Partner simply have to accept that he will always be one-step-away from betraying her again???
  • What is “temptation” and living in the real world? What is NORMALCY? 
  • W/hat is “Addiction” and how does it “rewire the brain”?
  • Can an addiction brain be truly “rewired” to a healthy, faithful state? What does that mean? How long does it take?
  •  
• What is “real recovery”? 
  • Treating the symptoms–”getting sober”
  • Exploring and addressing the “underlying core issues”
  • Maturing, evolving and learning HOW to have a healthy relationship and a healthy life!
  • LEARNING the lessons that the addiction showed up to TEACH so you can move forward in healthy living! 
• How do you reconcile “He can ONLY be sober today” with never having hope of anything changing—always having to be hyper-vigilant and wait for the “shoe to drop”? All ANY of us have any control over is ME and TODAY! There are NO guarantees. We know where this desire comes from, but it is not living life on life’s terms. 
• So, where do you go from here?
  • Investing in YOURSELF and YOUR POWER while he is doing the same thing. And then coming together to COLLABORATE on this!
  • But WHAT ABOUT  . . . . .???!!!

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 228, Mark & Steve get SUPER passionate talking to the partners of porn/sex addicts! Over the past several weeks, PBSE has received a number of heart-wrenching submissions by listeners who are partners falling and drowning in the overwhelming intensity of betrayal trauma and being in a relationship with a porn/sex addict. 

Unfortunately, in all of these submissions, the porn/sex addicted partner is choosing to come at the whole issue with one or more of the following—denial, gaslighting, minimizing, blaming, secrecy, trickle-truths, etc. Mark & Steve get raw and real in addressing these CRAZY HARD situations—

-  Let’s talk about all the various ways that this whole "porn/sex addiction betrayal" can blindside a partner and UNRAVEL into FAR more than the betrayed partner was ready for or prepared to take on. WHY does this quickly place betrayed partners into a state of feeling like they're hopelessly falling and drowning?!

-  HOW can betrayed partners TAKE BACK THEIR POWER?!

-  What does deciding to CHOOSE or not to choose the relationship going forward actually and realistically look like for a betrayed partner?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 227, Mark & Steve respond to an amazing submission from a PBSE listener who is facing an incredibly hard, overwhelming and toxic situation in her relationship with her sex/porn addict partner. One of the things that was so impressive about her submission is how balanced and reasonable she was in describing her partner and the situation. She did NOT "throw him under the bus," but simply stated what has been happening and the impact it has and is having on her. Because the submission was very detailed and lengthy, here is a summary of the situation she described—

-  12 years together
-  He has had multiple affairs & recurrent porn/masturbation addiction
-  Continuing "trickle truths" since "discovery day" (she has discovered everything through her own detective work)
-  He lied in the formal disclosure process with their CSAT therapist
-  He only passed a polygraph by confessing that he had lied in the disclosure itself
-  He continually plays ignorant about stuff he doesn’t want to come out
-  He resists exploring his past to create safety for her or be transparent
-  He violated boundaries by holding onto “souvenirs” from past affair partners
-  He consistently gives their therapist, family members and friends an inaccurate picture of her being aggressive and tyrannical
-  She is no longer opening up to family or friends due to the above

Here is how she concluded her submission to PBSE:

I have chosen not to continue letting my family or friends know what is happening because I could tell they were losing all hope in him when I had not. I still haven't (despite him being a jerk at times). I did/do not want to damage his ability to have a relationship with them, but it seems that he does not have the same consideration for me. There are moments when I want to defend myself, let them know about his addiction and the extent of his cheating and verbal/emotional abuse, but I have held my tongue. Can you speak to why he is going out of his way to misrepresent what is going on without consideration of the damage he is doing to my reputation or my ability to maintain these friendships? It feels like my whole life is being chipped away, one relationship at a time. Thanks guys. Sorry. I know this is very disjointed. Trauma brain, y'know?

In response to her very heart-felt questions, Mark & Steve address a host of important issues—

-  What are the various possible dynamics going on in this relationship?

-  What are the possible reasons behind this addict partner's behaviors and choices?

-  What can the betrayed partner AND addict partner DO going forward to pursue the most healing, connecting and recovery-based path possible? 

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 226, a PBSE listener asks a very common question about her interactions with her porn/sex addicted partner:

Hello, I just recently started listening to your podcast and I was wondering if you have, or if you could talk about, how to approach communicating our authentic feelings when our porn addict partner also struggles with depression … I'm always too scared to be fully transparent with him about what I'm feeling because I worry it will make him spiral to a very dark place … I know we won't be able to fully heal and mend our relationship until I'm able to be fully honest with him. For a little context: he is not currently in therapy; I've told him that therapy with a CSAT is one of the things I need him to do to help me feel safe and that I think it will help him in all areas of his life, not just in recovery.

Mark & Steve talk straight-forward and open about this kind of situation—for both the addict and the partner:

For Porn/Sex Addicts: 

• What is the “reactive” mode all about for addicts???
• We learned early on that it was NOT safe to be transparent or authentic; to share needs or expect them to be met, etc. So, we learned to go into “I-have-to-defend-and-take-care-of myself” mode. In our relationships with others, IT HAS TO BE ALL ABOUT US!
• The Survival Brain does NOT want “its way” to be interrupted—”IT” is sure “IT” KNOWS WHAT WORKS!
• Because we’ve been so isolated, inauthentic and disconnected, we DON’T KNOW HOW TO CONNECT AND BE INTIMATE! So, we compensate with self-protection, deflection, resistance and manipulation strategies.
• And, because we are disconnected from “healthy  sources” of renewal and intimacy, we go-it-alone—which we can NEVER succeed at—it’s TOO MUCH for anyone! So, in comes shame, fear, depression, anxiety, anger, etc. AND WE TURN TO ADDICTION OUTLETS TO ONCE AGAIN—“COPE ALONE.” 
• YOU must start advocating for YOU! You must start where you are and take the initial steps forward! If  you keep doing what you’ve been doing, you’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting! Are you ready to finally, genuinely admit—MY WAY DOESN’T WORK! We DO have really deep understanding and compassion for addicts (we are one), yet we know too well that “reasons” too easily become “excuses” and keep us stuck! 

For Partners in Healing:

• We understand that it is stressful, scary and may even bring about unwanted consequences to share how you're truly feeling with your partner.
• You have to ask yourself: “what kind off marriage do I want?” 
• Intimacy means sharing the good AND the bad. Choosing deep connection means letting go of the outcomes.
• Allowing the feelings of another individual to compromise your own authentic integrity is always an exchange of diminishing returns. 
• Be loving, but direct:

1. Be sure to authentically share the things that he is doing well, in addition to areas needing work.
2. If there are things that you appreciate about him, express those and the why behind them.
3. BUT, be very clear about the impact his actions/inactions are having on you, the relationship, etc.
4. Share what consequences have come about as a result, and what yet may come if there isn’t change. 
5. Acknowledge your inability to “make” him feel any sort of way, and encourage him to access and/or find needed supports.

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim C