Porn, Betrayal, Sex and the Experts — PBSE

There is an old, antiquated psychology model that is unfortunately still referenced by too many people out there regarding how porn/sex addiction impacts a spouse/partner. That old model is called, "Codependency."

For many years, Mark and Steve have practiced a far more effective and correct model and approach known as, "Betrayal Trauma." A PBSE listener who is the partner of a porn/sex addict, sent in a situation and questions around the misguided use and even "weaponization" of the term "codependency." Here is what she submitted—

"I recently showed my partner the episode titled “my partners definition of porn is different from mine” with the purpose of highlighting things like priorities and the authentic self. This was prompted because my partner has not been watching explicit videos, but was on tiktok listening to an adult content creator describing the physical aspects of one of the scenes she filmed; I brought this up with him to create a boundary around things that are overtly sexual as I feel they overlap with aspects of his pornography addiction. After he listened I asked him what he found valuable from the podcast and he said “the part about codependency” implying that my behavior was codependent because I was expressing that something made me uncomfortable and asking him to discuss possible solutions with me. Now whenever I talk to him about any negative feelings I have surrounding his behaviors he immediately says I’m being codependent. I looked through your podcasts for an episode on partner codependency but did not find one. I am hoping you guys could discuss what the difference between codependency and feelings or boundaries are; both so I can evaluate my own actions and behaviors and so my partner can hear it defined more clearly. I am fine taking accountability for codependent behaviors, but I do not want to be in a situation where all of my feelings get labeled as codependent."

In this episode, Mark and Steve talk raw and real about the differences between so-called, "codependency" and the expressing of authentic feelings and the holding of healthy boundaries. 

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 194, Mark and Steve respond to what may be the most brief situation and question ever submitted to PBSE. It comes from a sex addict trying to reconcile with his partner. Here's his submission—

"How can I reconcile my infidelity and my care for women’s rights? My wife says that I’m lying to myself, but I feel like I do care about #metoo. Like, wtf???"

In this episode, Mark and Steve get raw and real about HOW a porn/sex addict in recovery can most effectively project his authenticity and higher self to his partner. First, Mark and Steve talk about "obstacles"—

Obstacles:
-  Lack of trust
-  Lack of empathy
-  Caught in victim mode
-  Lack of accountability for the past or future commitments
-  Unwillingness to collaborate
-  Lack of shame resiliency
-  Ego Defense Mechanisms (Pride, stubbornness, machismo, ego)
-  Incorrect paradigms surrounding sexuality, connection, etc. 
-  Addict/Survival Resistance mentality

Then they talk about the "solutions"—

Solutions:
-  Actively seeking and developing trust-building experiences
-  An openness to other paradigms and ways of doing things (input from a spouse, therapist, group members, friends, etc)
-  Practicing and growing in active account-ability and response-ability
-  Developing vulnerability and mindfulness
-  Practicing & developing self-worth and confidence
-  Sobriety
-  Consistent follow-through and change in working to fix cultural and cognitive distortions regarding sexuality, connection, etc


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode #193, Mark & Steve talk passionately about a super-crucial part of addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing—rebuilding trust! This episode was created in answer to the following situation sent in by a sex/porn addict actively seeking recovery and yearning to rebuild trust with his partner—

"Hello, I have been listening for a few months now and have a question. A little back story, I have been as far as I know addicted to sex/porn for most of my life (about 30 years). Until recently when I have been trying to do something about it by understanding it and the underlying issues. About two three years ago is when I had an affair (no sexual contact, but flirting and hiding everything). Wife found out about it and it’s been downhill ever since. We have not gone to therapy. We have gotten some books and have been listening to your podcasts for a little while. I feel I have made some improvements personally as a result. I guess what I am trying to ask is, when or how long does it take being faithful, open, honest, and committed to her for her to start to trust again? I know that it may take the rest of my life for that to happen. I am in desperate need of help and I don’t know where to go. I do not know who to talk to and I don’t know how to talk to her. My work has a chaplain service, and I talk with them usually every Friday, but I don’t know if it is helping or not. I do not believe that it is helping her at all. I do not believe that she talks with or to anyone about this."

Rules for Rebuilding Trust:

-  The betrayer is optimally the one leading the charge. It is their primary role to lead out in:

• Providing accountability about the past.
• Providing ongoing transparency in all current and future situations.
• Cultivating, practicing and expressing empathy for the pain of their betrayed partner.
• Creatively and proactively pursuing both AMENDS and a COMMITMENT–BASED PLAN going forward for how they will go about enacting all of the above.

What can the betrayed partner do in the rebuilding of trust?

• Crazy hard, but being open to the fact that trust is not “all or nothing”—looking for small areas where trust CAN be built. Trust is a “trajectory.” But even in so-called small things, "trust but verify." 
• Active steps to find and catalyze healing on your own end (EMDR, therapy, working a 12-step program, Dare to Connect, etc.)
• Although trauma is a one-way street, healing in a relationship context is a two-way street. 
• He can hurt you, but he cannot fix you.
• This is good news–your recovery doesn’t have to be completely dependent on him, particularly from an individual side. 
• When it comes to your own personal healing, you are in the driver's seat! 

Our whole focus in D2C this month is how “Boundaries” are essential to rebuilding trust. One essential component in recovery and healing is a clear division of response-abilities and roles in all aspects of the relationship.

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

We KNOW this is a VERY intense episode title! We decided to tackle this topic because it was submitted by a PBSE listener who is engaged to a porn addict and wants to know if she should proceed or end the relationship. Here's how she describes her situation—

"Hi, I really appreciate this podcast and what it offers—as a partner of a porn addict, it gives me valuable insight on what we are both going through. I have been with my boyfriend for 6 years. About 3 years ago, I found out about his addiction and it’s been an uphill battle ever since. All of this has been heartbreaking to say the least and I have been trying to make sense of the deep betrayal and hurt. About three months ago, I finally asked him to put accountability software on his device and regularly talk to an accountability partner. He also has content and website restrictions on his phone. Since then, there have been 3-4 times I’ve found that he has looked up pornography on his device or worked a way around the accountability software. Despite this, I see real progress from him—he was almost 3.5 weeks sober just recently. I believe it happens much less often and genuinely believe he is trying. However, I am defeated because he told me he slipped up again. I have given him so much grace and understanding despite my deep hurt and pain. I am becoming increasingly more frustrated and heartbroken every time this happens. Being with someone for 6 years, I have been ready to get serious and start a life with him. But, every time this happens I feel like we are taking more and more steps backward. How do we end this toxic cycle, reclaim our relationship and finally move forward? Or—do I need to be more realistic and end this relationship, as he is too deep in his addiction? Thank you for any insight."

In this episode, Steve shares his own personal relationship story to illustrate that many years ago he and his partner were in a very similar situation!

 -  Why is it crucial to understand the differences between "reactive/pain-avoiding recovery" and "proactive, leading-out, all-in recovery"? 

-  What are the "3 Critical Rules" for couples contemplating entering into a life-long committed relationship where one of them is a porn/sex addict?

-  Why is it NOT in the best interest and happiness of either individual to enter into a long-term commitment UNLESS certain very specific conditions are willingly agreed to and worked on long BEFORE the final joining takes place?

-  Why is it imperative that the partner of a porn/sex addict tell him what he "needs to hear" as opposed to what he "wants to hear"? 

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 191, Mark and Steve take on what is an extremely difficult and painful topic for the partners of porn/sex addicts. This episode is in response to a PBSE listener vulnerably and transparently describing a very hurtful and traumatic situation and history she is facing with her partner. During their relationship, he has regularly chosen to access porn and other sexual behaviors outside of the loyalty and faithfulness of their committed relationship. When he immerses himself into those destructive behaviors, he tends to “turn the tables” and place blame upon her for his choices. Here’s part of what she expressed—

“When he’s not active in his addiction, he’s the sweetest, most open, considerate, really great guy. When he’s active in addiction, everything is my fault. He’s been addicted to porn and sex probably his whole life, and he knows the issues underlying it. Would you please, please do a podcast on how it’s NOT how your partner is not a porn model;  it’s not her behaviors when the addiction has always been there; it’s not right that he blames her and makes excuses for keeping on doing it. And maybe touch on how addicts can fall into self pity? Ugh. Thanks again for all you do. This is the first really applicable podcast I've heard about these issues, and the first place I found in depth descriptions and help. It’s a huge relief. Thank you.”

In this episode, Mark and Steve talk raw and real to individuals struggling with porn/sex addiction and to their partners, who too often can be blamed for destructive, betraying behaviors and choices that they did not cause, do not deserve and cannot fix. 


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 190, Mark and Steve take on some excellent questions asked by a PBSE listener. He is in good, solid, active recovery from porn/sex addiction and alcoholism. He is doing a LOT of right things and amassing some really good sobriety. But, based on his long history of addiction, lying, gaslighting, etc., she is having a hard time believing that he is doing as well as he claims. Here's part of what he shared—

". . .  she doesn't believe it was possible for me to cut back like I claim to have done. Making things worse, [in the past, I lied to her] and hid my porn use. Now I've been sober from porn for about 3 months. Even though it has been less than once a month between September 2022 - March of 2023, she believes it has been and continues to be substantially more. I was gaslighting her as well, which clearly has not helped. She is aware of all my disclosures now, but does not believe me. To add to the mix, she suffers from past trauma, including her upbringing, and prior relationships. So while I am sober now, and have been honest with her, I have an uphill battle to reestablish trust with her. Even in my sobriety, she believes I am still using, including as recently as last week. My sponsors have told me that I cannot control other people, which is correct, but I am wondering how I can go about reestablishing trust with my current partner? How can I learn to be more empathetic? How can I work to put us back on a solid foundation so I can repair the damage that I've done, or at least try to repair the damage?

Here are some insights that Mark and Steve offer in this episode—

-  What is "true empathy/leaning-in" and how can it help rebuild trust?

-  How can an addict in real recovery respond in healthy, connecting ways to a partner that wisely "seeks to trust but verify"?

-  In order to rebuild or even establish trust for the first time, a porn/sex addict MUST show forth consistent, authentic "recovery efforts" and "recovery results." How does one in recovery specifically "lead out" in these two areas? How does an addict in recovery embrace and live the motto—"Talk is cheap, show me!" 


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 189, Mark and Steve answer three critical questions sent in by a PBSE listener who is trying to balance her own healing from sexual trauma and her relationship with a 15-year-porn-addict who refuses to get into recovery.  And he insists on a long-distance, "digital/cyber" sexual relationship. Here's her situation—

"My partner and I are long distance. He has been a porn addict for the last 15 years and due to unrelated circumstances, refuses to get into formal recovery right now, although he has been clean for a little over 2 months. I have a long history of sexual abuse and and often suffer a form of sexual anorexia. The last time we had a conversation about him getting into recovery, I set a boundary around being sexual and said if he wasn’t willing to do even the smallest things for recovery then I wasn’t comfortable with being sexual. Right away he refused to abide by the boundary and continued to shove inappropriate conversations and jokes in my face, fully knowing it triggers me. Because of my past with sexual abuse, this feels worse than the addiction itself and we are having trouble navigating. He is annoyed that we have no sexual relationship (even through words) and it seems like he’s not able to understand my side of the story and doesn’t care to. Do I need to address my sexual trauma first? Is my boundary unfair? And how are we able to have a healthy sexual relationship from a distance without him being in formal recovery?"

In this episode, Mark and Steve talk raw and real in answering there 3 questions—

-  Do I need to address my sexual trauma first?

- Is my boundary unfair?

- Are we able to have a healthy sexual relationship from a distance without him being in formal recovery?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Episode 188 addresses a PBSE Listener's painful situation and heart-felt, crucial questions:

"Hi Mark and Steve, Firstly I want to thank you for hearing my previous question about my addict partners "empathy Button" being broken. Your podcast really reiterated that we are on the right track. Our disclosure day was with a Sex Addiction Specialist and we are both in ongoing therapy working through our individual journeys as well as our journey together. 

Today I have a question geared more towards my head space than his. I mentioned in the past email that his preferred "porn" was interactive messaging and sexting to ex-partners, along with a few physical infidelities with a couple of these women. He openly admitted in the disclosure day that some of the women knew about me but that when he was asked by others, he flat out lied and told them that he wasn't seeing anyone. This was one of the most hurtful parts of his disclosure. I understand that it is not healthy for me to compare myself to these "fantasy" women and while I did start to do that in the beginning I can quickly catch myself when those thoughts arise now. 

I do though, have one thought that keeps coming back to me—I want these women to know about me! I want him to tell them about me and that I know what they did. I want the ones who don't know about me to also know the truth and I want him to be the one to tell them. Part of the problem though is that we blocked and deleted their numbers and he also deleted his social media in the early stages of our therapy. So now we have no way to contact them. Im struggling to understand why I feel like I need them to know. Am I just being vindictive? Am I being petty? Or am I seeking acknowledgment in a situation that made me feel like I just didn't exist? If he does ever get a chance to tell them, would it even make me feel better? Id love your thoughts on this if you get a chance. Thank you for all that you do."

In this episode, Mark and Steve talk about their own personal experiences and their decades-long work with partners in betrayal trauma healing, to answer the critical question—"Will Confronting my Addict’s Acting-Out Partners Help Me Heal?"


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 187, Mark & Steve take on a topic and question from a PBSE listener that hasn't been specifically addressed on the podcast before. Here's what a listener submitted—

"Hi Mark and Steve - long time listener now and I've recommended your podcast many times to others in recovery. Thank you for all you professionalism, vulnerability, and all the resources you've put together! My question today is about so-called "edging" which refers to masturbation without orgasm. There seems to be confusion about whether this behavior is harmful, how or whether it fits into recovery, and how or whether it fits into a committed relationship, even without pornography or fantasy. Would you please share any wisdom you have around this behavior? Thank you for all that you do."

-  What is "Edging"?

-  How does it apply to various forms of "acting out" in addiction and life?

-  How can you step back from "narrow definitions" to focus on the real  keys—

Key #1—What is your "true intention"?

Key#2—What is the "honest impact" on the individual and couple?

Key #3—Does the "edging" behavior move you closer or farther away from what is truly "authentic"  for you as an individual and in your most important relationships?


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

In episode 186, Mark & Steve address a very difficult and sensitive topic sent in to PBSE by the partner of an addict in recovery—

"My husband and I have been in healthy recovery for an extended amount of time. He thinks someone can be objectified whether they have clothing or not, so if he wants to watch a movie where he knows there is a scene with nudity—that has nothing to do with the topic of a movie—as long as HE knows his intent and purpose for watching the movie, it doesn’t break his boundaries of 'relapse/acting out' and isn't even porn to him. I’m dying! He can see how the scenes would upset me, but he won’t call them what they are–PORNOGRAPHY. Is he just in denial? When we have a conversation and I tell him the honest truth, that I want him to choose me/my feelings over the movie, he states he feels like if he has to comply and that diminishes his sense of self and his individuality."

Exploration for the Addict in Recovery:

-  What is Authenticity? Who I am deep down—the values/attributes that I both possess, and am trying to cultivate and the person I am endeavoring to become?

-  This all involves a clear understanding of not just what I value and prioritize, but also how do I take and hold my priorities in a balance? In other words, how do these priorities stack up against one another? Which are “more authentic” and more important than others?

-  What are my "hills to die on"? What is authentic, not only for "me" but for "we" as a coupleship? What does "love" really mean to me? What does "giving up something for something better or more" really mean to me? What truly matters MOST to me?

Support For Partners Healing from Betrayal Trauma:

-  It comes back to your own boundaries, both with your addict partner, but also with yourself. 

-  In what ways are your spouse’s choices impacting you, and HOW are you holding boundaries? 

-  Do you have clear consequences in place to keep yourself and/or the relationship safe?

-  What does YOUR "optimal environment of healing" look like and HOW can you fight for that in healthy, authentic ways?


Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program—"Dare to Connect!" You have live access to Mark and Steve in 3 one-hour sessions every week—addicts, spouses and couples! And live support groups on weekends, facilitated by Mark and Steve! To try a free, 2-week trial, visit—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services