(0:41) Welcome
Welcome back listeners to episode 363 of The Paleo View!Stacy is joining in from Austin, Texas will solid WiFiAlso known as rant quality WiFiAfter taking a peek at the show outline, Stacy is feeling pretty excited about this week's episodeSarah had a great camping trip, but they were rained out the second nightWhat started as scattered thunderstorms quickly evolved into strong storms with a wind advisory and severe weather waterThis was going to last 12 hoursSo they decided to have dinner, pack up and head home at 9:00 p.m.After traveling so late, Sarah had to spend an entire day resting up to offset the lack of sleep from the night beforeThe time that they did have to camp was wonderfulThey hiked up to a mountain, down to a waterfall and they savored their time together in full-on nature modeStacy is grateful that she has never had to experience a major storm while campingMatt, Stacy and the boys are excited to explore Austin and to eat at some of their favorite spotsThey went from cool temperatures at their last stop in Santa Fe to warm temperatures in TexasBefore Santa Fe, they were able to visit the Petrified Forest and it was an incredible experienceListeners, add this spot to your bucket list of places to visitThis week Stacy and Sarah will be talking about fad dietsThe question that kicked this all off Stacy received from a friend and had to do with phytonutrients in vegetables as being problematicThis friend follows a ketogenic dietPhytonutrients in vegetables are one of the 'why' points that people in the ketogenic community mention when defending their dietary choices(14:06) Phytonutrients
Sarah finds this 'why' point to be interestingIt is looking at things like phytates and oxalates as being somehow problematic when it comes to mineral and nutrient absorptionThis isn't true, they don't stop you from absorbing nutrients and they don't leach nutrients or minerals from your bodyYou have bacteria in your gut that actually processes oxalates and phytates and liberate the minerals that are boundHaving a healthy gut microbiome is key for being able to absorb the minerals that are bound with phytic acid and oxalic acidThere are plenty of other nutrients in even the highest phytate and highest oxalate vegetables that will be absorbed without our gut bacteria there to helpSo you can't say that you have poor gut health, so it is better for you to avoid these high phytate and oxalate vegetablesThe way that you grow those bacteria that help to break those down is by eating those foodsHigh oxalate foods include organic radishes, turnips, spinach, and arugulaWe eat these foods raw and organic, and then we will expose our gut to basically nurture the colonyThere is no science that would point to any kind of risk associated with eating these vegetablesThis myth has been busted so many times, and yet it keeps coming backThere is a lot of confusion around Phyto versus antiPhytonutrients and antinutrients are not the same thingsThere is a huge body of scientific literature showing us that a high phytonutrient diet is one of the most important aspects of reducing cancer risks and cardiovascular disease riskMost phytonutrients are incredibly potent antioxidantsThey are anti-agingThey are anti-inflammatoryThey stop DNA from mutatingThey can protect against depression and dementiaThe range of phytonutrients and their effects is spectacularWe know that there are two things in vegetables that are responsible for all of the benefits that come with a high vegetable consumption dietOne is fiber because fiber regulates our digestive system and feeds our gut microbiomeAnd the second is phytonutrients because of the huge range of benefits that phytonutrients haveSure there is a very very tiny percent of phytonutrients that in isolation could have a negative effectHowever, they are packaged in this package with so very many more positive effectsVegetables are really really really importantStacy is reminded that this is an exercise in being an educated consumer of informationEvaluate the sources of your informationKnow where these sources are getting their information and look into those sources yourselfSarah and Stacy strive when preparing The Paleo View to provide listeners with the base knowledge to evaluate whether or not something makes senseSarah has been working to educate people on how to evaluate science and how to value scienceThis podcast should be a place where listeners can ask questions when the information they are seeing is too confusing and to give you the base knowledge that you need to see something in all of the scientific research(29:53) Q & A
Jackie says, "what do you think of the Paleo Green diet, Keto Green diet, or the Pegan diet? I have heard Dr. Hyman and Dr. Perlmutter talk about them as it relates to keeping the microbiome healthy by getting tons of low-carb veggies & prebiotic fiber in the diet.This is a few different variations of recognizing limitations within ketoStacy and Sarah have talked about the problems with a keto diet in two previous podcast episodes (hereand here)There were two papers published in 2019 on the ketogenic diet that showed very undesirable shifts in the gut microbiomeSarah has written blog posts on this research, which you can find using the links below:https://www.thepaleomom.com/how-ketogenic-diet-wreaks-havoc-on-your-gut/https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-diets-caution-advised/https://www.thepaleomom.com/the-case-for-more-carbs/https://www.thepaleomom.com/how-many-carbs-should-you-eat/https://www.thepaleomom.com/importance-of-vegetables/https://www.thepaleomom.com/the-amazing-world-of-plant-phytochemicals/Sarah has been talking about this for five or six years now, that her deep concern about keto is that it simply doesn't provide enough fiberIt's so low carb that it is extremely difficult to get sufficient fiber to support a healthy gut microbiomeIt is also low fiber diversityYes, there is a therapeutic benefit to incorporate a ketogenic diet when treating a neurological and neurodegenerative diseasePeople in these situations are taking on a keto diet under medical supervisionWhen we discuss people using a keto diet to support weight loss, this is a different conversationWhat is happening now that this research is out showing that keto has all these problems:1) Some people are dismissing every paper that shows that keto might not be great2) Other people are looking at the information and trying to figure out how to get the benefits of keto while mitigating the detrimentsDr. Anna Cabeca is one of the leaders of the Green Keto movementThis dietary approach basically combines keto with the alkaline dietThe alkaline diet is rich in veggies, low meat, which has also been well busted in the scientific literatureThe idea is that by eating a lot of vegetables that it is healthy for the kidneys because the kidneys control the Ph of the body and the phytonutrients in vegetables provide the raw materials for the kidneys to effectively do their jobHowever, there is no scientific evidence supporting the low-meat part of this dietHigh meat consumption is not strenuous on the kidneysDr. Cabeca has combined that philosophy of consuming tons of vegetables (especially green vegetables to keep the carbs low) and has basically created a more plant-focused version of ketoShe recommends using supplements to maintain ketosis on this planThe thought process in this is overall good because you are getting a larger diversity of vegetables and you are getting a lot of fiberHowever, there are still other concerns that Sarah has about why this dietary approach is not idealThere are things that keto triggers in a low insulin environmentWe do need to make some insulin because it is important for thyroid health, muscle and bone health, hormone health, and memoryThere are a lot of things that this super hormone does in the bodyLow carb diets have this fundamental flaw of not providing us with nutrient sufficiency and missing out on some nutrients that our body really needsIt's an interesting thought to try to get the best of keto, but the best of keto is not greatThere have been a couple of studies that have shown that when you lose weight on a ketogenic diet that you lose more muscle per pound of fat than you do when you are just counting caloriesIt is a fad diet that doesn't live up to its promisesEven though Green Keto is a really good thought, it's still not enoughStacy feels that any lifestyle or diet that requires the purchasing of anything to add to your diet means you are missing somethingIf you are being told you need supplements or you need this thing to test your ketones, it means that it's not complete in an of itselfIt also means that it is not sustainable longtermBoth Stacy and Sarah choose to take supplements because they aren't getting all that they need of certain nutrients (like vitamin D) from diet aloneBut Stacy and Sarah are not here to tell people that they need to take certain supplements because it is missing from the lifestyle they advocateStacy pointed out the way in which fad diets tend to get hung up in labelsShe loves the way Sarah describes the way she eats as a low-inflammatory, high nutrient-dense dietIt is super important for people to understandThis description is a nuance that doesn't sell well as a fad diet bookHowever, it does really help health as it relates to a longterm lifestyle for people to figure out individually what works for them(44:20) The Pegan Diet
Jackie also asked about the Pegan Diet which is the terminology spearheaded by Dr. HymanDr. Hyman saw limitations in both a vegan and Paleo approachHe wanted to take the best of both and combined them into a Pegan approachIt's plant-based Paleo, but not in the way that Stacy and Sarah talk about itSarah wants to preface this part of the conversation about what Pegan is by talking a little bit about what her upcoming book, The Gut Microbiome is all aboutIt is not available for preorder just yet, but she is working really hard on itThis will not be a Paleo bookShe is going through the gut microbiome research and writing about what the research saysThere is no branded diet in it whatsoeverShe is building the principles of a healthy diet from the ground up based on our microbiome healthWhen you build this diet from the ground up it looks like a very veggie-rich Paleo diet with that Mediterranean, olive oil type, healthy fat focusModerate fatModerate proteinHigh vegetable consumption, including fruit and root vegetablesSo it is moderate carbohydrateThere is room for non-Paleo foods that actually may be very beneficial for usThis includes lentils, chickpeas, split peas, gluten-free oats, rice, and A2 dairyThis book has no diet dogma behind it and simply reflects the researchDr. Hyman's recommendations include:No sugarNothing that has pesticides, hormones or GMOsNothing that is refined or manufacturedHigh vegetable consumptionNot too much fruitHealthy fatsLimiting or avoiding dairy (goat or sheep instead of cow)Always organic and grass-fed4 to 6 oz. serving of meat per mealHe has a strong focus on food qualityRecommends avoiding all glutenGluten-free whole grains sparinglyLentils are the bestOnly eat starchy beans every once in a whileFunctional medicine is also another point that he highly recommendsSarah thinks that this is the best of the trademarked version of a plant-based diet combined with PaleoThis might potentially still be a little carb phobicHowever, it does increase Phyto content consumptionOverall Sarah thinks that there is a lot of confusion within the Paleo community, which is why she wrote the Paleo ApproachAs new research emerges, there are no prominent figures within the community who shares on these findingsThis means that there are people within the community who are not highly informed individuals who are making recommendations that are not based on scientific evidenceThere are still people who are following a very high meat consumption version of PaleoThere is still a high level of people who follow Paleo as a meme instead of a way of lifeStacy and Sarah's approach is to try to correct the record about what Paleo is so that people coming into the community understand the importance of vegetables, eating snout to tail, nutrient density, seafood, toxin concerns, etc.They are trying to create an evidence-led robust scientific foundation for Paleo to stand onSo that people coming into the community are not adopting a fad version of Paleo where they are just eating a ton of meat and bacon and dark chocolateWhere people instead are eating a low-inflammatory, nutrient-density dietDr. Hyman has looked at those communication challenges within the Paleo community and has decided to rebrand and create a new thing with a new name that can fall under his umbrellaIt's a different solution to the challenges that Paleo has right now as it grows and absorbs different alternative health communities and the different priorities that different health communities bring to the Paleo communityThe Pegan approach is interesting to Sarah because it's basically giving upPaleo has become this unmanageable giant thing, and its a ship now that is getting really hard to steerLet's just create a new thing and rebrandIn general, Sarah thinks that Pegan is standard Paleo with room for self-experimentationThis generally seems like a thing about brandingSarah just isn't sure what she thinks about thatShe sees the Paleo community as this really amazing group of people who are really invested in their health and she doesn't want to just jump ship on that to simply have a different framework to say the exact same thingShe would rather stay rooted and embedded in this community and help to continue to provide that scientific foundation for her choices and call out where influences from other alternative health communities come into Paleo are misled or nuancedSarah wants to make sure that this community is really well informed and understands why one food is great, why one food isn't, and all the world of gray in between where foods can have pros and cons and might work for you and might notTo be able to approach Paleo in not just a balanced way, or a science-led way, but in a non-dogmatic, non-rule based wayStacy says that it makes so much sense to live in a non-dogmatic way, but use principlesThis is consistent with what Stacy and Sarah have been talking about on the show for yearsIf you look at the way the Paleo community has gone with Chris Kresser's Paleo Code, Rob Wolff's Wired to Eat, and The Perfect Health Diet, you can find countless resources that show the ways in which the Paleo template has evolved as science has evolvedStacy thinks that it is a lot more difficult for people to wrap their mind around the idea of these are guiding rules about foodBut they are guiding, and they are not hard and fastYou will have to figure out what works for youFor Stacy personally, she thinks about food and asks is this nourishing me? Or is it not?And there is the additional factor of, is this detrimental to my health?Stacy and Sarah both shared how they personalize based on the years of experimentation they have doneStacy is baffled that we are still trying to put labels and rules around what everyone can or can't eatShe feels like we are all individual people who come from different genetic backgroundsAnd because of these differences, we tolerate different foods differentlyIt's as simple as getting back to basicsEating real food that supports healthThe more that we really have this mantra with ourselves, "is it helping me get healthier?"And if it's not, is it harming my health?Am I using it in a way that develops social or emotional development for myselfIt's not just a vacuum(1:08:37) Closing Thoughts
Sarah has to share one really exciting thing before they wrap up with is week's showNext week is The Paleo View's seven-year anniversary!Stacy feels that seven years is a very long timeAnd yet it is interesting, that here they are revisiting the principles that brought them here, to begin withIt changed both Stacy's and Sarah's lives in terms of their energy, their health, their weight loss, and so much moreThe science is still pointing to the guiding principles that got us there, to begin withSarah finds it amazing that even after recording for seven years, they are not running out of topics to discussWhich is a testament to how important it is to approach diet and lifestyle as an education rather than a sound biteSarah is so grateful for not just this platform, but The Paleo View listenersStacy shared on the level of deep connection that she feels towards this community of listenersStacy would love to meet listeners at her final eventsBe sure to check out the details hereThank you so much listeners for being here for seven yearsFor showing up at events or each week to download and be with Stacy and SarahThey adore you and hope to share something clever to celebrate the monumental milestoneThank you again so much listeners - Stacy and Sarah will be back again next week!
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