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• Thriving is a relational journey that involves being deeply connected to others and the community.
• The importance of a "true north" and discerning what is most sacred to orient one's life.
• Understanding thriving as accepting a truer story of yourself, others, and the world.
• Engaging in mindset and behavior changes for flourishing, with self-compassion.
• Thriving as having resources built up in various domains (personal, family, social) to buffer from crisis.
• The concept of thriving begins with the love of God and love of neighbor.
• The alignment of purpose and practice is central to thriving, regardless of changes over time.
• Recognizing ourselves as "God's masterpiece" and finding joy and contentment in that.
• Thriving as a dynamic, meaningful engagement in purposeful living, adapting to changing contexts.
• The idea that one can be struggling or even mentally ill and still be thriving is a "both/and" process.
• Thriving as an internal state and relational reality marked by an open heart and meaningful relationships, even on a stressful day.
• The journey of thriving involves self-discovery and healing, acknowledging both strengths and weaknesses.
• Being "habituated to doing good" and demonstrating one's "best self" in relationships.

Dr. Pam King’s Key Takeaways

• Thriving is relational and happens when we are deeply connected to other people, whether that be through our intimate relationships or our broader community.
• Thriving involves telling a truer story about life, that there is both beauty and brokenness.
• Thriving involves understanding who we are as God's masterpieces, that we all have strengths, and we all can thrive and find life in our weaknesses.
• Thriving involves discovering and pursuing what gets you up in the morning – your true north, what is most sacred to you.
• Thriving involves self-discovery and healing, which might mean being softer with ourselves so that we can find internal ease.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Episode Highlights

1. "When we laugh, when we are sitting in delight, it expands–It not only keeps us in our window of tolerance, but it expands our window of tolerance."
2. "We also know that play is just a huge protective factor. It allows people to process their experiences, but also build skills for the future."
3. "Play is really about doing something for the enjoyment of it, for no other reason, but for the enjoyment."
4. "The more stress you have, the more play you need."
5. "To hold multiple emotions that more than one thing was true... gives us tremendous capacity to be resilient and have more mental and cognitive, flexibility as well as emotional flexibility."

Helpful Links and Resources

Books by Dr. Tina Bryson

• The Way of Play (Tina’s latest book!)
• The Whole-Brain Child
• No-Drama Discipline
• The Yes Brain
• The Power of Showing Up

Follow Tina Bryson:

TinaBryson.com

Instagram

X

The Center for Connection

Show Notes

• The importance of play for human development across the lifespan, noting that even mammals engage in it.
• How play keeps us in receptive, thriving states and expands our window of tolerance for frustration and discomfort.
• The crucial relationship between stress and play: the more stress in our lives, the more we need play to counterbalance it.
• The distinction between free unstructured play for children and dyadic, child-led relational play.
• Addressing common parental challenges with play, such as not knowing how, finding it boring, or children's resistance.
• Introduction to Tina's new book, “The Way of Play,” co-authored with Georgie Wisen-Vincent, which offers seven strategies for parents to engage in child-led play for brain integration and relationship building.
• Defining play for adults: doing something purely for enjoyment, not productivity (e.g., pickleball, running, decorating, thrifting, watching "trashy TV").
• The significance of being playful in our manner – adding silliness, lightness, and sharing funny videos for shared laughter and connection.
• How play serves as a powerful tool for emotional regulation and processing, allowing individuals to "try on" difficult emotions in a safe, controlled context.
• The capacity to hold multiple emotions simultaneously (e.g., discomfort and fun), fostering resilience and mental/emotional flexibility.
• The impact of even "little moments" of play in creating significant connections, especially after separations.
• The concept of mutual delight in play and the importance of following what lights up both individuals.
• Tina's personal insights into her own playful activities, including her love for organizing and systematic approaches.
• Dr. Jill Westbrook’s Key Takeaways
• Play is important throughout our life spans because the positive emotions it elicits expand what Tina calls our window of tolerance. We get better at avoiding the rigidity and chaos that can plague our relationships.
• The more stressful our lives are, the more we need to play.
• Having playfulness in life is as important as actually playing. So, adding play to your life doesn't mean that you have to schedule any particular time for play. Laughing, sharing funny videos, lightening things up a bit are all part of play.
• Playing with children is vital for their development, and for those of us with young people in our lives, finding time to do something fun with them helps us all thrive.
• Tina's new book “The Way of Play” offers practical advice and teaches strategies so that all of us can get more comfortable playing.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

How can we grow into our full potential?—living up to what we know is the best version of ourselves, actualizing our goals, and expressing our deepest purpose in a life of impact and love?

Grounded in cognitive science and psychology, best-selling author, podcaster, educator and researcher Scott Barry Kaufman believes that we need to redefine our understanding of greatness and excellence to include our whole selves—our emotions, dreams, failures, and gifts—all to live a life that is fully human, fully yourself.

In this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, we discuss:

• Education and formation for the whole person, not just our intellect but our bodies, emotions, and spirituality
• Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the journey that leads to self-actualization
• The difference it makes to see the world through growth rather than our deficiencies
• What it means to thrive even in the midst of mental illness
• The horizontal dimensions of transcendence
• And how to connect and align with your deepest values

Episode Highlights

1. “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
2. “Self-actualization is bringing your whole self to the table—not just one part of you.”
3. “Real transcendence is about becoming one with the world—not being more enlightened than others.”
4. “People are far more likely to demand respect than to give it.”
5. “Only you can walk the path.”

Helpful Links and Resources

• Visit scottbarrykaufman.com
• The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman
• Choose Growth Workbook by Kaufman & Feingold
• *Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization,* by Scott Barry Kaufman
• Scientific American: Spiritual Narcissism
• The Lights Triad Personality Test
• Sensitive Men Rising Documentary
• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Reimagined – Big Think
• Corey Mascara Podcast on Values

Show Notes

• Origin Story and Human Complexity
• Scott shares his journey from being labeled “ungifted” with an auditory disability to becoming a cognitive scientist.
• A pivotal teacher asked, “What are you still doing here?”—sparking self-belief and ambition.
• “I was a champion for the quirky kids from the start.”
• His work has shifted from an early obsession with greatness to a lifelong pursuit of self-actualization.
• “Greatness is tied up in power and status. Self-actualization is about bringing your whole self.”
• Reimagining Maslow & The Sailboat Metaphor
• Kaufman replaces the hierarchy of needs with a dynamic sailboat metaphor.
• The boat represents safety (security, connection, self-esteem); the sail represents growth and transcendence.
• “Unless we open our sail and become vulnerable to the wind, we can't move toward what matters.”
• Adds collective dimension: “There are other boats in the sea. Some people forget that.”
• Contrasts “horizontal transcendence” (connection) with “spiritual narcissism” (superiority).
• Mental Illness, Creativity, and Thriving
• Challenges the binary between wellness and illness: “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
• Cites research showing creative strengths in children of those with mental illness.
• “They get the goodies without the baddies—the imagination without the psychosis.”
• Dismantles false dichotomies in psychiatry: labels vs. lived experience.
• Encourages integration rather than repression of neurodivergence and emotion.
• Alignment, Identity, and Individual Growth
• Alignment—not perfection—is the goal of self-actualization.
• “Self-actualization coaching isn’t about judgment. It’s about helping people align with their values.”
• Different people prioritize different values: connection, power, freedom, meaning.
• Encourages reflection: What roles do you cherish most? What do you say yes and no to?
• “Ask: What’s my reason for being? What legacy do I want to leave?”
• Moral Psychology and Mattering
• Discusses mattering and the perils of performative self-importance.
• “Some people matter too much… they take up so much space, there’s no room for others.”
• Proposes a “mattering ecology” for shared dignity and contribution.
• On moral flexibility: “People who scream loudest often don’t like themselves.”
• Calls for emotional regulation, reflection, and collective moral grounding in a polarized world.
• Relationships, Whole Love, and Spirituality
• Introduces the concept of “whole love”—where all parts of the self are seen, accepted, and growing together.
• “It's as simple and as hard as that.”
• Critiques spiritual narcissism and “dark empaths” who use others for ego validation.
• Real empathy requires asking: “Am I helping this person for their sake—or because I need to be needed?”
• “Good character doesn’t need an excuse.”
• Practical Takeaways & Coaching Tools
• Directs listeners to Choose Growth, a practical workbook co-authored with Dr. Jordan Feingold.
• Reflection prompts: What am I proud of? What do I wish to change? What’s my legacy?
• Encourages clarity around values and meaningful roles.
• Offers self-coaching questions to foster personal development and alignment.
• Provides listeners with tools for discernment, purpose, and sustainable growth.
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• Science and spirituality work together as an integrated pursuit of truth.
• Intelligence is so much more than a thought-process.
• Self-actualization leads us well beyond the self.
• Life is like a sailboat: so let the wind fill your sails as you dance on the waves toward our most valued harbor—and may the tides rise for all of us.
• To be a whole-person means resting in a loving compassion for ourselves and others—an openness and oneness with the world.
• “Many people could carry you across the bridge, but only you can walk the path.”

About Scott Barry Kaufman

Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive scientist, author, and humanistic psychologist exploring the depths of human potential. He is the founding director of the Center for Human Potential and a the best-selling author, speaker, and podcaster. He hosts The Psychology Podcast. And he is author and/or editor of numerous books, including his celebrated *Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization, Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined*, as well as his latest books, Choose Growth: A Workbook for Transcending Trauma, Fear, and Self-Doubt and Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. If you’re interested in more from Scott, visit scottbarrykaufman.com.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.

Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life.

In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss:

• The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the world
• The importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems.
• The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamics
• The difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationship
• And she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God.

Episode Highlights

1. "Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully."
2. "I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within."
3. "Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others."
4. "If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive."
5. "Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform."
6. "Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Check out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/
• Fuller Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu/
• Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) Overview
• Circle of Care Model Explained
• Positive Psychology and Emotions
• Jeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and Emotion
• Asian American Values Scale Reference
• Race and Trauma Resources
• Jeanne Tsai’s research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQ
• John and Julie Gottman Relationship Research
• Asian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)

Show Notes

• Jessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity.
• How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing.
• The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary.
• "Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families.
• Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships.
• Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility.
• "Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?"
• Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced.
• The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships.
• The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness.
• Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships.
• "Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day."
• How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression.
• The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families.
• Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics.
• Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone.
• "Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference.
• Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations.
• The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference.
• Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body.
• The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience.
• The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience.
• Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving.
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• Each of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth.
• The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humility
• Thriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God.
• Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners.
• And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain.

About Jessica ChenFeng

Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller’s Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge.

Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She’s co-authored two books, Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and FamilyTherapist, as well as Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don’t have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved.

Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love.

In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection.

In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss:

• How to turn around a relationship in crisis and get off the emotional rollercoaster
• How to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationship
• Coping mechanisms of blame, shame, control, and escape
• Practical steps to learn emotional self-regulation
• What to do when only one partner is working on a relationship
• The role of the brain and neuroplasticity in relational repair
• And the spiritual underpinnings of Terry’s approach to restoration therapy

Episode Highlights

"It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change."

• "Relationships are a mirror—we discover who we are through how others see us."
• "Blame, shame, control, and escape—nothing good comes from these coping mechanisms."
• "Understanding doesn’t produce change. Doing produces change."
• "When we nurture, self-value, connect, and cooperate, unleashed joy happens."
• "Thriving is doing more of your best self, not learning something new."

Helpful Links and Resources

• Restoration Therapy Training Resources
• The Mindful Marriage by Ron Deal and Nan Deal (with Terry and Sharon Hargrave)
• Five Days to a New Self by Terry Hargrave
• Emotionally Focused Therapy and Sue Johnson's Legacy

Show Notes

• Introduction to Terry Hargrave and the importance of Restoration Therapy today
• "We are still the same humans, but with a bigger pipe of problems and fewer emotional connections."
• Emotional dysregulation linked to identity and safety threats
• Relationships as a mirror to the self and necessary for human thriving
• "For there to be a me, there has to be a thou."
• Why relationships are difficult: imperfection, wounding, and unmet needs
• How family of origin wounds influence coping styles
• "Families don't mean to screw each other up, but somehow they manage to."
• Introduction of the four major unhealthy coping mechanisms: blame, shame, control, and escape
• How overachievement, perfectionism, and withdrawal are survival strategies from early wounding
• "Your greatest strength might actually be an old coping habit getting in the way of intimacy."
• The relational signs that coping mechanisms are damaging relationships
• Healing through self-regulation: speaking truth to yourself with love
• "Put your hand on your heart and remind yourself of who you really are."
• The difference between co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional healing
• Restoration Therapy’s peace cycle: nurture, self-value, balance, connection
• "Nothing good comes from blame, shame, control, or escape."
• The role of practice and neuroplasticity in forming new relational habits
• "Doing, not just understanding, is what rewires the brain."
• How thriving relationships move from neediness to adventurous partnership
• Intimacy as knowing yourself more fully through connection, not just need satisfaction
• Cooperative growth and mutual flourishing as hallmarks of thriving
• Application of restoration principles to broader societal healing and reconciliation
• "Unleashed joy happens when we choose nurture and connection, even with adversaries."
• The critical role of faith in affirming belovedness and ultimate identity
• "Everyone else and even God can tell you you're beloved—but you have to claim it for yourself."
• Practical advice for knowing when to seek therapy
• Where to find Restoration Therapy-trained therapists
• Resources for learning more: Mindful Marriage and other Restoration Therapy books
• The key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following:
• You can change. Your relationship can change. But it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change.
• And though you might fail, there is hope that you can begin again.
• Our coping mechanisms are not superpowers. They hurt us and the people we love.
• Understanding is not enough. Action and behavior has to follow for change to occur.
• [Any others?] It takes two to tango, but that doesn’t get you off the hook from doing the work on yourself.
• And finally, a thriving relationship creates joy all around it, within a family, in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society.

About Terry Hargrave

Dr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families.

He’s most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships.

Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy and Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family.

In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It’s called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it’s a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it.

He’s presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging.

His work has been featured on ABC News, 20/20, Good Morning America, and CBS This Morning as well as several national magazines and newspapers.

You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

You can’t be moral on your own. That’s a radical idea in this time of moral outrage, but thriving in public life requires a sense of mutual accountability, belonging, and hospitality for each other.

Mona Siddiqui is a professor of religion and society, an author, commentator, and public intellectual, and she suggests that the virtues of loyalty, gratitude, hospitality, and hope can lead us through the common struggle of being human together, living forward into a thriving life of public faith and renewed moral imagination.

As Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh, she is an international beacon of hope that we might find restoration, hospitality, and flourishing in our world of struggle. Working through questions of loyalty, responsibility, belonging, gratitude, robust faith, and what we owe each other, we can find abundant resources for thriving and spiritual health.

In this conversation with Mona Siddiqui, we discuss:

• What is a moral life?
• The connection between faith, spirituality, and living a moral life of responsibility and integrity
• The difference between cultivating virtuous character and doing justice
• How to thrive in a pluralistic society marked by constant struggle and conflict
• The promise of gratitude and hospitality in a life of thriving
• And how to pursue a hopeful, forward-looking approach to restoration in the wake of harm, loss, pain, and suffering.

Episode Highlights

• "Our moral life only becomes alive when we are in a relationship—you can't be moral on your own."
• "Life is all about searching. Life is all about introspection. Life is all about reflection."
• "The good life is hard; it's not about ease, but about living with accountability and responsibility."
• "Hospitality isn't just welcoming—it's negotiating belonging, loyalty, and a sense of shared life."
• "Gratitude can liberate, but it can also create hierarchies and transactional indebtedness."
• "Hope is not naive optimism—without hope, how do you live, build relationships, or carry forward at all?"

Helpful Links and Resources

• Follow Mona on X (Twitter) at @monasiddiqui7
• *Christians, Muslims, and Jesus,* by Mona Siddiqui
• Human Struggle, Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona Siddiqui
• A Theology of Gratitude: Christian and Muslim Perspectives, by Mona Siddiqui
• My Way: A Muslim Woman’s Journey by Mona Siddiqui
• The Moral Maze, BBC Radio 4

Show Notes

• Mona Siddiqui’s personal background in Islamic jurisprudence and public theology
• “I got into Islamic jurisprudence because of personal connection and intellectual curiosity.”
• Navigating public discourse post-9/11 as a non-white, non-Christian scholar
• Importance of pluralism and living within diverse identities
• "I need to create a space that appeals to a wider audience—not just about what I think."
• Growing up with intellectual freedom in a traditional Islamic household
• How faith upbringing seeds lifelong moral introspection
• "You are always answering to yourself—you know when you have not lived rightly."
• Developing comparative theology through seminars with Christian scholars
• Overlapping themes between Islamic and Christian thought on the good life
• The significance of accountability over blanket forgiveness
• "Belonging is crucial to being a good citizen—you can’t flourish alone."
• Exploration of loyalty: loyalty to people vs loyalty to principles
• Civic loyalty and critical engagement with the state
• “Because I feel loyal to my country, I should also be its critic.”
• The role of prayer in cultivating internal moral awareness
• Reflection on virtues: gratitude, loyalty, hope
• The dark sides of gratitude and loyalty in institutions
• Parenting with a focus on integrity, accountability, and faithfulness
• “Live so that whatever you say in public, you can say at home—and vice versa.”
• Emphasis on public engagement: speaking clearly, making complex ideas accessible
• "Radio became a gift—people want complex ideas made simple and meaningful."
• Remaining hopeful despite the culture of outrage and cynicism
• Young people’s resilience and persistent hopefulness
• Hospitality as a fundamental ethic for creating trust and belonging
• Struggle as a normative, transformative experience that shapes flourishing
• "Thriving is not just freedom—it’s centering, writing, speaking, and deep human connection."
• The importance of relationships in thriving and flourishing
• “Most of us realize—relationships are the hardest, but the most rewarding.”
• Redefining gratitude: avoiding transactional gratitude, cultivating authentic gratefulness
• Struggle cultivates introspection, resilience, creativity, and a deeper moral life
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• I can’t be moral on my own. But my decisions are my own. In the end, living with integrity means living with virtue.
• Personal and public flourishing are deeply connected to our lives of faith and spirituality; and all of us need to bring the depths of our personal spiritual commitments into public life.
• We can offer hope and freedom from fear to each other when we expand our hospitality to all persons.
• The practice of gratitude in the face of our vulnerability is easier said than done—but is a strengthening response to uncertainty and suffering.
• And finally, human struggle is something we hold in common, and it can be redeemed for creativity, beauty, healing restoration, and a reminder of our dignity as human creatures.

About Mona Siddiqui

Mona Siddiqui is Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh.

Her research areas are primarily in the field of Islamic jurisprudence and ethics and Christian-Muslim relations. She’s the author of many books, including Human Struggle: Christian and Muslim Perspectives,Hospitality in Islam: Welcoming in God’s Name, and My Way: A Muslim Woman’s Journey. A scholar of theology, philosophy, and ethics, she’s conducted international research on Islam and Christianity, gratitude, loyalty and fidelity, hope, reconciliation and inter-faith theological dialogue, and human struggle.

Mona is well known internationally as a public intellectual and a speaker on issues around religion, ethics and public life and regularly appears as a media commentator on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Radio Scotland’s Thought for the Day and The Moral Maze.

A recipient of numerous awards and recognition, she is a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, she gave the prestigious Gifford Lectures in Natural Theology. She was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences as an International Honorary Member. And Dr. Siddiqui was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire, which is just steps below the highest Knighting—specifically for her public interfaith efforts.

To learn more, I’d highly recommend her books, but you can also follow her on X @monasiddiqui7.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Applying neuroscience and psychology to education and formation, pioneering researcher Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang draws connections between emotions, relationships, brains, stories, meaning, and purpose to shed light on how we learn, grow, and thrive.

Her research on the brain shows how we’re woven together in an intricate and glorious network of life, and when we synthesize the neurological, the psychological, the physical, and the social, we’re able to come to a deeper and more impactful understanding of human development and flourishing.

From the intricacies of adolescent brain development to the emotional and spiritual scaffolding of a meaningful life, she explains how transcendent thinking, story, and emotional engagement fuel identity formation and long-term flourishing. Drawing from cutting-edge research and humanistic insight, she explores how young people co-create their worlds and how adults can support them in becoming adaptive, wise, and agentic.

In this conversation with Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, we discuss:

• The value of integrating neuroscience with educational, emotional, and moral development
• The strange and glorious case of the adolescent brain—how we mature, learn how to think, feel, and exercise our agency, and strive to become wise
• The emotional and relational nature of education and moral development—expressed in nurturing conversation between caring adults and youth
• The importance of agency, intentionality, and transcendent thinking in human thriving
• Neural plasticity and the capacity to change our brains throughout our lifespan
• And, the big picture of thriving, that brings together our mental life, neurobiology, and other physical processes—with relationships, community, and society at large.

Episode Highlights

"Thriving is really about living like you mean it."

"We co-construct one another’s lived experiences by the virtue of being there together."

"You learn how to have an instinct—it’s not something you’re just born with."

"Transcendent thinking literally grows the adolescent brain."

"Meaning-making is an abstraction, a transcendent story we construct to bring coherence to our lives."

Show Notes

• Thriving as dynamic, purposeful engagement
• Emotional experiences shaping brain development
• Co-construction of identity in social relationships
• Adolescence as a time of neurodevelopmental remodeling
• How transcendent thinking fosters brain growth over time
• Adolescents’ drive for deeper moral and ethical narratives
• Meaning-making as a tool for personal and societal transformation
• Linking personal experience with historical and social narratives
• Default mode network and its role in reflection and creativity
• From instinct to insight—how the brain learns to feel
• The relationship between emotional health and physical well-being
• Gut-brain connection, serotonin, and embodied cognition
• Transcendence as a cognitive-emotional developmental milestone
• Influence of media, anxiety, and political division on adolescent minds
• Brain-based evidence of narrative engagement growing identity
• Learning to align present feelings with long-term purpose
• Brain science dismantling the myth of "subjective = unimportant"
• Agency, presence, and intentionality in thriving
• Integration of neuroscience with humanistic and applied methods
• Role of narrative in therapy, art, education, and spirituality
• How adolescents learn to feel, not just what to think
• Culturally-rooted belief systems shaping neural responses
• The importance of reflection, introspection, and deep conversation
• Adolescents’ innate capacity for moral concern and big-picture thinking
• Learning through story: case studies in adolescent empathy
• Reclaiming agency from external cultural and tech influences
• Identity as a lifelong, evolving narrative—not a fixed outcome
• Growth as intentional reflection, not cognitive acceleration
• Spiritual wellness as iterative construction of meaning and values
• Parenting and mentoring for deep reflective growth
• Adaptive wisdom: balancing immediacy with long-term vision
• Signs of flourishing: self-liking, relationship quality, agency
• Importance of diverse experiences and safe, supportive relationships
• Adults thriving through neuroplasticity and meaning-making
• The lifelong role of story and belief in shaping purpose
• Cognitive engagement and values-based direction over passive success
• Emotional safety and time as prerequisites for transcendence
• Listening, asking why, and welcoming the unknown as virtues of thriving
• Pam King’s Key Takeaways
• Brain science isn’t better or worse than other perspectives on human life, but it offers incredible insight for how we grow and thrive.
• Stories and narratives are the essential threads that hold our lives together; how you think and the story you’re telling yourself matters for your thriving.
• Education isn’t just a cognitive process. Our emotions and our bodies and our sense of connection and safety in relationships play a central role in learning.
• Spiritual health connects how our transcendent thinking informs our identity and how we live in reciprocity with the world beyond ourselves
• Thriving involves an agile agency that helps us live with skill and intentionality—so “live like you mean it.”

About Mary Helen Immordino-Yang

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang is the Fahmy and Donna Attallah Professor of Humanistic Psychology at the University of Southern California. And she’s the founding director of the USC Center for Affective Neuroscience, Development, Learning and Education. Candle is just a lovely image for Mary Helen’s work that brings so much light to the world.

She’s also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has received several national awards for her ground breaking research and its implications for education

With a focus on educational psychology and the role of emotions in brain development and growth, she’s an expert on the neuroscience of learning and creativity. And her approach offers insight on how our brains shape human culture, morality, and relationships.

She works with adolescents and their teachers (particularly in low socio-economic environments) to understand how we build meaning together—looking at abstract, systems-level, and ethical implications of learning complex information, navigating social situations, and narrating our identities.

Her research underscores the active role youth play in their own brain and psychosocial development through the narratives they construct, and capacities teachers cultivate to support student belonging and deep learning.

To learn more about Mary Helen and her work, check out candle.usc.edu.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

"Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see.” — Makoto Fujimura

"Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us." — Makoto Fujimura

You are a beautiful masterpiece. But the practice of living artfully comes slowly, often through brokenness, weakness, or failure. Contemporary artist Makoto Fujimura integrates traditional Japanese styles with abstract expressionism and Christian theology, to explore the beauty that can emerge from the ashes pain and suffering. Both his art and his writing call us to behold the gift of creation, participate in its redemption, accentuating the cracks and fractures in our lives, so that grace might abound.

Makoto Fujimura—renowned artist, writer, and theologian—joins Dr. Pam King to explore the deep connections between art, faith, and flourishing. Fujimura shares how his Japanese heritage and study of traditional Nihonga painting have shaped his understanding of creativity as a sacred act. Through themes of brokenness, beauty, and slow art, he challenges us to rethink success, embrace imperfection, and create from a place of love and abundance. Whether you're an artist, a person of faith, or someone seeking meaning in a hurried world, this conversation will invite you to slow down, behold, and embrace the mystery and beauty of life.

Mako Fujimura integrates his artmaking, theology, and culture care advocacy into a beautiful expression of thriving and spiritual health. Through his breathtaking expressionist style, distinctively Japanese methods, and his rooted Christian convictions, he’s bringing beauty into being, and inviting us to do the same.

In this conversation with Mako Fujimura, we discuss:

• What art is, what creativity means, and the human capacity for making beauty
• How we can live artfully through imperfection, brokenness, trauma, and suffering
• How the practice of a gift economy can lead to mutual thriving
• The slow art of pausing, stopping, and beholding that contributes to our mental and spiritual health
• And the connection between knowledge and love in a life of creativity and artmaking.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Follow Makoto Fujimura on X @iamfujimura
• View Mako’s art at makotofujimura.com
• Makoto Fujimura’s Writings
• Makoto Fujimura’s Books
• Nihonga Art and its Traditions
• Refractions: A Journey of Art, Faith, & Culture
• Culture Care: Reconnecting with Beauty for Our Common Life
• Silence and Beauty: Hidden Faith Born of Suffering
• Art and Faith: A Theology of Making

Episode Highlights

"Art is fundamentally what human beings create—it is our capacity to make, and in making, we come to know."

"Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see.”

"We worship a wounded, glorified human being—our brokenness is not something to escape but something to offer."

"Creativity is not about self-expression alone—it is about giving yourself away in love."

"Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us."

Show Notes

• Makoto Fujimura discusses the intersection of art, faith, and flourishing
• The importance of beholding in a fast-paced world
• How brokenness and imperfection reveal deeper beauty
• Nihonga painting and the wisdom of traditional Japanese art
• Creativity as an act of love and gift-giving

The Art of Beholding

• Why slowing down is essential for creativity and spiritual growth
• The practice of beholding as a way of seeing the world more deeply
• How art invites us to be present and pay attention
• The connection between contemplation, creativity, and flourishing
• "Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see."

Creativity, Faith, and Human Flourishing

• How art and faith are intertwined in human thriving
• The spiritual discipline of making and creating
• Why true knowledge is connected to love and experience
• "Art is fundamentally what human beings create—it is our capacity to make, and in making, we come to know."
• How community fosters creativity and growth

Brokenness, Beauty, and the Theology of Making

• The Japanese tradition of Kintsugi and embracing imperfection
• How Jesus’ wounds and resurrection shape our view of brokenness
• The gift economy vs. the transactional economy in art
• "We worship a wounded, glorified human being—our brokenness is not something to escape but something to offer."
• Learning to see beauty in what is discarded or overlooked

The Practice of Slow Art

• Why slowing down is essential for deep engagement with art
• How layers in Nihonga painting reveal new depths over time
• "Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us."
• How slowing down fosters healing and deeper connection
• The role of patience and attentiveness in both art and life

Living a Creative and Generous Life

• How to cultivate creativity in daily life, even outside traditional arts
• The role of community in sustaining creative work
• Why generosity and self-giving are essential to true creativity
• "Creativity is not about self-expression alone—it is about giving yourself away in love."
• Practical steps for integrating creativity into everyday living

Pam King’s Key Takeaways

• Whether you think of yourself as artist, we’re all creative. Mako’s message is intentionally not just for artists, but is an invitation for all of us to live artfully—no matter what we do for a living.
• Because creativity comes in so many different ways, from leadership, to scientific research, to parenting, to cooking, we all have the daily creative capacity to add beauty to the world.
• And to that end, remember your first love, the playfulness and creativity of giving beauty to the world
• A gift economy of beauty offers a radical resistance to consumerism, competition, and comparison.
• Art and the making of beauty is a part of thriving. And the invitation to live artfully starts with a daily practice of slowing down: pause, stop, and behold. Smell the roses. Consider the lilies.
• And finally, there’s a path to beauty through brokenness. Grace comes to us through failure. And strength is made perfect in weakness.
• And finally, though the wind may be blowing through our lives, may we all learn to behold the moonlight leaking between the roof planks.

About Makoto Fujimura

Contemporary artist Makoto Fujimura is a painter, an author, a speaker, and an imaginative maker with a gift for theological integration.

Mako’s message is intentionally not just for artists, because creativity comes in so many different ways, from leadership, to scientific research, to parenting, to cooking, we all have the daily creative capacity to add beauty to the world. Working out of his Princeton, New Jersey studio, his work has been described by David Brooks as “a small rebellion against the quickening of time.” Art critic Robert Kushner placed Mako’s art at the forefront of a contemporary movement about “hope, healing, redemption, and refuge, while maintaining visual sophistication and intellectual integrity.”

A blend of fine art and abstract expressionism, Mako describes his work as “slow art,” being influenced directly by the distinctively Japanese Nihonga style, which is patient and methodical, using slow drying pigments from ground minerals.

Mako’s art has been featured in galleries and museums around the world, as well as notable collections in The Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo, The Huntington Library in California, and the Tikotin Museum in Israel.

From 2012 to 2017, he served as vision director of the Brehm Center here at Fuller Theological Seminary.

Mako is the author of several books, including Refractions: A Journey of Art, Faith, & Culture, Culture Care: Reconnecting with Beauty for Our Common Life, and Silence and Beauty: Hidden Faith Born of Suffering. His most recent is entitled Art and Faith: A Theology of Making. And his next book will be available soon—titled, Art Is: A Journey into the Light. And with his wife Haejin, he’s producing a new work on Beauty and Justice.

Follow him on X @iamfujimura, and view his beautiful work at makotofujimura.com.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

"Spirituality is like nuclear fission—it has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled." — Dan Koch

"Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality." — Dan Koch

On our path to spiritual health, we need to keep our eyes open to the ways religion and spirituality have been exploited to coerce, control, and create chaos. Focusing on the intersection of religion and psychology, licensed therapist, researcher, and podcaster Dan Koch is creating a public conversation about spiritual harm and abuse, helping victims learn how to deal with spiritual trauma, and offering insight and guidance toward healthy religious and spiritual experiences.

From his own personal journey of religious trauma to his extensive research on spiritual abuse, Dan shares insights on how faith communities can both wound and restore. The conversation covers the psychological impact of religious trauma, the complexities of self-diagnosis, and practical strategies for self-knowledge and healing for anyone who has wrestled with faith, struggled with past church experiences, or have lost their religion.

In this conversation with Dan Koch, we discuss:

• The psychological study of spiritual abuse and harm, including conceptual definitions and the many factors that come along with them.
• The symptoms and most recognizable patterns that point to spiritual abuse
• The impact of abuse and trauma on psychological and spiritual health
• How to reappraise and challenge harmful core beliefs
• And how to find healing, joy, and transcendence as we deal with past trauma.

Spirituality: Pro-Social Benefits, with a Shadow Side of Harm, Exploitation, and Violence

Through With & For, as well as the broader work of The Thrive Center, we regularly explore the expansive benefits and positives that emerge from our inherent spirituality as human beings, and how that relates to our individual and collective thriving.

Religion and spirituality can be an immense force for good, offering countless pro-social benefits to the world, helping us our innate spiritual capacities is an essential factor in what it means to thrive.

But we have to acknowledge the harm and vice and corruption—the violence— that has been perpetrated through religious and spiritual contexts. Spiritual abuse is a serious matter and there’s no way we can cultivate a full understanding or integrated experience of healthy spirituality without coming to terms with its prevalence and effects.

Dan Koch’s attention to spiritual harm and abuse is about clearing the way toward a healthier spirituality grounded in care and healing. By exposing and exploring past traumas in the context of heathy and respectful relationships, we can grow into a more joyful faith and transcendent spiritual life.

About Dan Koch

Dan Koch is a licensed therapist supporting patients working through the trauma of spiritual abuse; and his work and insight in this domain emerges from his empirical research. He’s also host of the You Have Permission podcast. With a background in philosophy and theology, he explores questions of faith, doubt, and spiritual well-being. His research focuses on the psychological effects of religious trauma and how individuals can heal from spiritual abuse.

Find more of his work at dankochwords.com.

You can find his podcast, You Have Permission wherever you listen to podcasts and find exclusive episodes at patreon.com/dankoch.

Helpful Links and Resources

• Dan Koch’s Website
• Join Dan Koch’s Patreon
• You Have Permission Podcast
• Dan Koch’s Research on Spiritual Abuse
• The Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale Clinical Screener
• Development of the Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale (Article, May 2022)

Quotable

"I would just distinguish between self-knowledge and self-diagnosis—one leads to growth, the other can lead to unnecessary fear."

"Avoidance is both a symptom of trauma and a cause of it—it keeps the rest of the symptoms around."

"Spirituality is like nuclear fission—it has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled."

"You can't worship a villain—when spiritual abuse distorts your image of God, it becomes almost impossible to stay in faith."

"Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality."

Show Notes

• Dan Koch on spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and healing
• How beliefs about God shape emotional well-being
• Practical self-knowledge exercises to promote healing
• The impact of fear-based religious teachings on mental health
• Strategies for deconstructing harmful religious experiences

Understanding Spiritual Abuse and Religious Trauma

• Definition and key elements of spiritual abuse
• Difference between spiritual harm and abuse
• The role of power, control, and coercion in religious settings
• How religious trauma manifests in daily life
• Connection between religious trauma and PTSD

The Psychological and Emotional Impact of Religious Trauma

• The interplay between faith, fear, and mental health
• The long-term effects of toxic religious teachings
• How avoidance perpetuates trauma symptoms
• Self-diagnosis vs. self-awareness in spiritual healing
• The importance of challenging harmful core beliefs

Practical Strategies for Self-Knowledge and Healing

• Dan Koch's guided self-knowledge exercise
• How breath work can regulate anxiety from spiritual trauma
• Recognizing and reframing harmful core beliefs
• The power of contemplative practices in spiritual healing
• Using evidence-based approaches to reconstruct faith

How Churches and Communities Can Foster Spiritual Health

• How leadership can avoid coercive control
• Creating spaces for questioning and spiritual growth
• The importance of transparency in religious institutions
• Encouraging self-agency in spiritual communities
• Redefining authority and spiritual guidance in a healthy way

Pam King’s Key Takeaways

• Spirituality is like nuclear fission: its incredible power can be harnessed for abundant good that is essential to thriving, but when it is exploited or used irresponsibly, the fallout is catastrophic for human well-being.
• Thriving is an integrative process that can be better understood and better lived when we draw from psychological, philosophical, and theological sources.
• Sometimes our core beliefs are the source of spiritual harm and trauma, and these can be reframed, reappraised, and challenged—aligning us with self-respect, truth, and love.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

We need a recovery of the sacred in our secular world. Because the mental, emotional, and psychological struggles haunting society right now can’t be solved without addressing meaning, purpose, and the longing for connection to something beyond ourselves.

In other words, spiritual health is an essential part of mental health.

An attorney, religious scholar, and university chaplain, Dr. Varun Soni is Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California, and is leading us back to our true north, through spacious and life-giving spiritual conversations and sacred practices that realign us to our values and identity.

In this conversation with Varun Soni, we discuss:

• Finding the sacred in our secular culture.
• Religious pluralism and what it means to build trust that reaches across religious lines of difference.
• The transformative power of finding your “truth north”—your North Star—to orient our journeys of faith and spirituality.
• Varun shares six pillars of flourishing; how to align our actions with our values; and the benefit of listening to the cultural narratives and stories we tell.
• He reflects on the missing elements of spirituality in our understanding of mental health today, evidenced in his work with teens and emerging adults.
• He offers us a Hindu meditative practice to provide inner clarity, stability, and calm.
• And he comments on compassion and a cultivation sacred spiritual practices to counteract the loneliness, anguish, and suffering in our world.

Show Notes

• Dr. Pam King welcomes Varun Soni, Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life at USC
• Journey from Hindu attorney to first Hindu Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life in the U.S.
• “What does it mean to be Indian? What does it mean to be Hindu? What does it mean to be American? What is this Indian American experience?”
• 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act
• Inspired by grandfather’s connection to Mahatma Gandhi
• “ What it meant to be Hindu was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to be Indian was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to live a meaningful life was to live like Gandhi.”
• “ I continued to study religion as a way of understanding myself.”
• Sitting with the Dalai Lama on Mahatma Gandhi’s birthday
• Mentorship from the Dalai Lama
• Deepak Chopra’s influence
• “Interfaith trust building”
• University Chaplaincy
• What is thriving to you?
• "Thriving is the alignment of purpose and practice—it’s not about arriving, but about moving in the right direction."
• “What is my north star, and how do I get there?”
• Spiritual well-being about asking the right questions, not having all the answers
• Religion once provided meaning, rituals, and community—now young people seek new structures
• "What is sacred to you? If you can’t answer that, you’re drifting without a compass."
• The urgency of time when turning 50 years old
• “I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone anymore.”
• “Put the process before the answer.”
• 6 pillars of thriving and well-being: diet, sleep, exercise, contemplative practice, emotional intelligence, connection to nature
• Basic physical pillars of thriving: Diet, Sleep, Exercise
• Spiritual pillars of thriving: Contemplation, Emotional Intelligence, and Communing with Nature
• Finding what is sacred—faith, relationships, personal values
• 51% of USC students non-religious, 80% spiritual
• Record levels of loneliness, imposter syndrome, comparison culture
• “Not just a mental health crisis, but a spiritual health crisis.”
• Loss of intergenerational religious experiences—key protective factor against depression
• "We took away religion and replaced it with social media, then wondered why anxiety skyrocketed."
• Social media fuels disconnection rather than community
• "We weren’t built for this much bad news. Our brains weren’t designed to process global suffering 24/7."
• “There’s no right way to do contemplative practice.”
• Find moments built into your day
• Exercise: So Hum breath meditation: Inhale “So,” exhale “Hum”
• Using meditation as a spiritual technology or tool
• "You are not your thoughts—you are the awareness behind them."
• Identity shaped by personal narrative—"If you don’t like your story, rewrite it."
• Telling the story of who you will become
• "Every individual is the hero of their own journey, whether they realize it or not."
• Cultural mythology, from sacred texts to Marvel movies, reflects search for meaning
• Spirituality helps build redemptive life narratives
• “There power in being part of something bigger.”
• The Spiritual Child by Lisa Miller—research on spirituality and mental health
• "It’s hard to hate the people you love—universities are one of the last places where people can learn to love each other across differences."
• Technology and mediated relationships
• What is sacred to you?
• "Gen Z’s greatest superpower is empathy, but they’ve never been lonelier."
• Building protective factors for young people
• Gratitude rituals shift focus from anxiety to appreciation
• Care, justice, and connection
• Mental Health Crisis
• Mental Health and Spiritual Health
• Awe-inspiring moments—nature, music, relationships—essential to well-being
• "Awe, wonder, and gratitude aren’t luxuries—they’re survival tools."
• “You can’t doom-scroll your way to joy. Presence and connection matter.”
• Religious institutions declining, but human need for transcendence remains
• Creating new rituals and meaning-making for a secular generation
• "Spiritual health is just as important as mental health—ignore it, and you miss a key part of the equation."
• What is your North Star? What gets you up in the morning?
• How do your daily practices align purpose and action?
• How do the stories you tell shape your identity and thriving?
• Try So Hum meditation as a daily mindfulness practice
• Engage in one act of gratitude—write a note, express appreciation, savor a moment
• It’s all too easy to fragment our lives into secular and sacred, but thriving and spiritual health require wholeness and integration of every aspect of ourselves, including our faith and spirituality.
• Future generations of leaders need our guidance and support in their connection to community and their search for meaning, purpose, and hope.
• Keep your seat-belt firmly fastened, your seat-back upright, tray table stowed, and secure your own spiritual oxygen mask before assisting others.
• We can counteract the outrage, anxiety, and information overload with simple, daily practices that bring stability and clarity.
• We thrive when we align our actions and our values, our behavior with our beliefs, and our practices with our purpose.

About Varun Soni

Varun Soni is the Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California. He received his B.A. degree in Religion from Tufts University, where he also earned an Asian Studies minor and completed the Program in Peace and Justice Studies. He subsequently received his M.T.S. degree from Harvard Divinity School and his M.A. degree through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He went on to receive his J.D. degree from University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, where he also completed the Critical Race Studies Program and served as an editor for the Journal of Islamic and Near Eastern Law. He earned his Ph.D. through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Cape Town, where his doctoral research focused on religion and popular culture. As an undergraduate student, Dean Soni spent a semester living in a Buddhist monastery in Bodh Gaya, India through Antioch University’s Buddhist Studies Program. As a graduate student, he spent months doing field research in South Asia through UCSB’s Center for Sikh and Punjab Studies.

Dean Soni is currently a University Fellow at USC Annenberg’s Center on Public Diplomacy and an Adjunct Professor at the USC School of Religion. He is the author of Natural Mystics: The Prophetic Lives of Bob Marley and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (Figueroa Press, 2014) and his writings have appeared in the Washington Post, Huffington Post, Crosscurrents, Jewish Journal, and Harvard Divinity Bulletin. He produced the critically acclaimed graphic novel Tina’s Mouth: An Existential Comic Diary by Keshni Kashyap, which is currently being adapted as a feature length film. He also produced and hosted his own radio show on KPFK-Pacifica that showcased music from South Asia and its diaspora. In 2009, he was one of the organizers of the historic Concert for Pakistan, a benefit concert at the United Nations General Assembly Hall featuring Salman Ahmad, Sting, Outlandish, Jeff Skoll, Deepak Chopra, and Melissa Etheridge.

Dean Soni is a member of the State Bar of California, the American Academy of Religion, and the Association for College and University Religious Affairs. He is on the advisory board for the Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement, Journal for Interreligious Dialogue, Hindu American Seva Charities, Future45, and the Parliament of the World’s Religion. Prior to joining USC, Dean Soni spent four years teaching in the Law and Society Program at UCSB. Born in India and raised in Southern California, he has family on five continents and they collectively represent every major religious tradition in the world.

About the Thrive Center

• Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
• Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
• Follow us on X @thrivecenter
• Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter

About Dr. Pam King

Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.

About With & For

• Host: Pam King
• Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
• Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
• Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
• Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa

Special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.